Killtown releases a Shanksville video

[ref]

I can't see the video at work, but I can read the transcript on that page. He is promoting the planted evidence no plane theory.

http://hoodwinkedatshanksville.blogspot.com/

He writes stuff like:

How do we know that a pair of black boxes weren’t taken from a previous plane crash and those were used to stage these photos?

And what's with this piece of wood in the crater???

Is that twisted piece of metal aluminum from a plane, or just a piece of tin?

Wow. Really convincing no plane theory, NOT.

[JAStewart]

Im starting to think that Killtown doesn't believe planes existhad to enter something!

[ref]

Here he is releasing videos with no problems. What about that WTC 2 video he promised? Proves even more that he has none. Not that we would want to see one.

[wahrheit]

I closed the page after 5 minutes into that idiotic video.

[Pythra]

I don't understand this at all. Everything in that entire video could have been more concisely (and less ridiculously) presented on one short webpage. Why does it have to be a video at all? I almost feel embarrassed for the CTers who produce this rubbish. It's like when eager school teachers first discover PowerPoint, and suddenly every lesson becomes 50 awkward, animated slides.

[jsiv]

Is this the same guy who sees faces in smoke?

I fast forwarded through parts of it and at 06:30 he proves that Bush nuked the WTC because the little box that houses all the processing hardware for the Flight Data Recorder didn't survive. Surely they don't expect us to believe that only the reinforced storage media would survive a crash?! Everyone knows the whole thing is made out of indestructium. :rolleyes:

The rest I couldn't be bothered to watch.

So.. did anyone count the number of copyright violations?

[tacodaemon]

I don't understand this at all. Everything in that entire video could have been more concisely (and less ridiculously) presented on one short webpage. Why does it have to be a video at all? I almost feel embarrassed for the CTers who produce this rubbish. It's like when eager school teachers first discover PowerPoint, and suddenly every lesson becomes 50 awkward, animated slides.


Yeah, I've been saying that for a while now. Apparently troofers have a real problem with information presented in text format without mad beatz and illmatic picturez being added.

Actually, though I haven't watched the video yet, every time I think of Killtown I hear wacky clown music in my head rather than hip-hop rhythms.

[ref]

Is this the same guy who sees faces in smoke?

I fast forwarded through parts of it and at 06:30 he proves that Bush nuked the WTC because the little box that houses all the processing hardware for the Flight Data Recorder didn't survive. Surely they don't expect us to believe that only the reinforced storage media would survive a crash?! Everyone knows the whole thing is made out of indestructium. :rolleyes:

The rest I couldn't be bothered to watch.

So.. did anyone count the number of copyright violations?

This is the same guy yeah. Wow, that was really hard to watch, it was so terrible. And why do they have to use AC/DC Music? Watching this is not recommended, unless you want to keep up with their awful mistheories.

[Unfit4Command]

I watched this earlier today. Pretty much everything brought up is just assumption. Looks like I need to research Flight 93's black boxes more, just in case this video is ever brought up in a debate.

I don't think it will be though, even a lot of Truthers don't agree with Killtown's theories.

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

Actually, though I haven't watched the video yet, every time I think of Killtown I hear wacky clown music in my head rather than hip-hop rhythms.
Ha! And thanks to that, so will I!
'Deet-dee deedle deedle deet dee dee dee'

[NickUK]

Ha! And thanks to that, so will I!
'Deet-dee deedle deedle deet dee dee dee'

I see Cartman and his mum:

"Meeeeuuummmmm! No one's listening to my no planes theorah!"

"Oh there just silly poopy heads, hun! You want some cheesy poofs?"

[R.Mackey]

Ha! And thanks to that, so will I!
'Deet-dee deedle deedle deet dee dee dee'

Amazingly, that song has a far more martial origin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrance_of_the_Gladiators) than is commonly recognized...

I picture KT as some kind of Vanilla Ice-inspired hip-hop reject stuck in the 80's. David Wong (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.html) nailed that inference.

[~enigma~]

Just the first minute has copyright violations by using AC/DC and Val's picture. The rest of the video is purely laughable. His first assumption is that there was no crash at Shanksville so the black boxes were planted. The moron makes a big deal that they were 10 feet apart (one was deeper) in the ground as if that really means anything. Then he makes himself look more stupid by claiming one recorder (black box) was from Allied Signal while the other was from Honeywell although they are the same company. He compares the lowercase a from signal to the capital H from honeywell or maybe it is the capital A from Allied. The creature called Killtown is a f[rule8]ing ignoranus and his video proves he is.

[CptColumbo]

Yaknow, I don't watch movies when I know they're going to be crap. Further, I don't need to watch them to know their crap. When someone I trust tells me that Uwe Bol made a good movie I might watch it, until then I'll just assume they are all crap. When someone I trust tells me this video or any other Killtown projects are worth seeing I might watch it, until then I'l assume it's crap and not worth my time.

[Rawkarma]

This new video of Killtown's is just another chitfest of speculation with no evidence.

He ask's the viewer 22 questions and doesn't answer any satisfactorily.

I see some people on the LCF are wondering whats up with all the questions and outright speculation? Did anyone really think that this 12:26 of bs was gona answer anything?

Killtown's movie could have been substantially condensed into around 1 min, as the big mystery is how the FDR had the label AlliedSignal and the CVR had Honeywell?!?

Heres Killtown speculating more for us all:

Notice how it was placed by some rocks along with a small peice of twisted metal, nicely tucked underneath...

Is that twisted piece of metal aluminum from a plane...

or just a piece of tin?

So, was it placed by some rocks with a piece of scap metal tucked underneath...

to again, make the photo look more convincing?

So, the government wants to convince us so much that this is a genuine crash scene of flight 93, they place "tin" near the blackbox and wood in the crater?

Right, im with ya KT: the government is planting tin and scrap metal to make it look just right; even going to the lengths of idiocy in clearing off all the dirt for these photos so we can see the mistake in the label's even clearer?

Either their just woefully incompetent and leave the H in plain sight on the CVR along with wood in the crater for sharp folk like KT to sniff out, or it's a whistleblower trying to tell us it's all a fake.

Kinda like with moon landings and the "C" on the rock for "clever" etc.

[jsiv]

Maybe I'm just stupid, but what difference does it make if the FDR and CVR were made by two different companies?

Are they not two entirely seperate devices?

??
???
????
?????
??????

[MG1962]

Maybe I'm just stupid, but what difference does it make if the FDR and CVR were made by two different companies?

Are they not two entirely seperate devices?


Well I wanna know why black boxes aren't black!!!!!!!! I mean seriously - Orange, black boxes??? So the gubmint has been lying to us. They never found black boxes, but orange ones...................And made by two different companies. Well thats it. Pearl harbor was obviously a black or should I say, orange flag operation

[LashL]

<snip>every time I think of Killtown I hear wacky clown music in my head rather than hip-hop rhythms.

Ha! And thanks to that, so will I!
'Deet-dee deedle deedle deet dee dee dee'


Not me ~ I hear this terrific musical smackdown by qarnos
which you can find here (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2084871&postcount=203)

:)

[Oliver]

What a boring piece of crap!

-7549168477622277702

Is there anything that would be worth the effort to debunk it?

And who was the producer of this picture show? A pseudonym
called Killtown - or an anonymous, childish COWARD! using Shill-
Clowns name? :D

[Unsecured Coins]

once again, troofers who claim to want to "take america back" are censoring the living bejesus out of those that don't agree. I commented that this video was the worst 12 minutes of my life...

BUH-LEETED

I said I saw the virgin mary in my toast.

BUH-LEETED

What is the truth coming to if all you want is to be surrounded by people that agree with everything you say?

[Oliver]

*snip* What is the truth coming to if all you want is to be surrounded by people that agree with everything you say?


It's called Truthology. And "truth" is just a terminology (Acclamation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acclamation))
for their religion meaning something like "amen" or "alleluia".

[Unsecured Coins]

Thank God I don't believe in God, then.

wait.... did that make sense?

[Oliver]

Thank God I don't believe in God, then.

wait.... did that make sense?


It makes sense if you know for fact that god is real
but you chose to deny him. :D

[Unsecured Coins]

well, let me clarify. I don't belive it is possible to prove god exists. That would make me.. agnostic.

[Oliver]

well, let me clarify. I don't belive it is possible to prove god exists. That would make me.. agnostic.


See? Truthology doesn't have such problems. They simply
say Bush and Cheney are Satan - therefore there must be
a god, too. But they are still discussing if it is Dylan Avery,
Killtown or Rob Balsamico. :D

[T.A.M.]

Thank you guys. You have saved me wasting 12 minutes of my life on more CT rubbish.

Sorry to those who sacrificed their time so I could save mine.

TAM:)

[jhunter1163]

You're welcome TAM. Now take those 12 minutes and go heal someone, OK?

[R.Mackey]

And who was the producer of this picture show? A pseudonym
called Killtown - or an anonymous, childish COWARD! using Shill-
Clowns name? :D
That does raise an interesting point.

Dear old KT would have absolutely no recourse against anyone who chose to use his "name" for purposes other than shilling mindless Sept. 11th conspiracy nonsense (viz. using it for good). I doubt he's copyrighted that name, and even if he has, he'd have to break cover to attempt enforcement.

Open season, I says.

[Horatius]

Maybe I'm just stupid, but what difference does it make if the FDR and CVR were made by two different companies?

Are they not two entirely seperate devices?

??
???
????
?????
??????



He seems to assume that both devices in the plane should come from the same manufacturer. He of course does nothing to justify that assumption. He then shows that Allied Signal acquired Honeywell, and started using that name about 2 years prior to 9/11. The implication is that they planted the wrong type of box, it should have been AS, but they used HW.

He also "predicts" that the PTB will claim that the box was replaced prior to 9/11, implying that this will be a CYA move. Ignoring the fact that they'd say the same thing even if it were true.

So, one unsupported assumption used to dismiss another prefectly reasonable explanation, and all with no effort to actually determine what the manufacturing/maintainace history of the plane was.

About what you'd expect, in other words.

The sad part is, as usual, he's found a perfectly good question, and again perfectly mucked up the explanation*.

At least his video is only 12 minutes. Most other twoofers would drag it out to an hour or two. So kudos to him on getting to the damn point already!









*Think about it - what if he had investigated the history of the plane - and found out that it really should have been an AS box? He'd actually have something! And yet, there he sits, 5 yard from the TD line, and decides he doesn't need to go all the way. And then he wonders why he's losing!

[mailman]

Has he been to Shanksville yet?

Mailman

[jsiv]

And yet, there he sits, 5 yard from the TD line, and decides he doesn't need to go all the way. And then he wonders why he's losing!


Which reminds me of this classic conspiracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_58).

http://www.stavro.nu/eng/pics/konsp58.jpg

Title: Conspiracy 58
Director: Johan Lofstedt / Johan von Sydow
Genre: Documentary
Running Time: 28 min.
Country: Sweden

Synopsis: Winning the Silver Trophy in the 1958 Football World Cup was one of Sweden's greatest sports achievements ever. This film is about the people who were there, but most of all about the people who - despite eyewitnesses and evidence from film footage - claim that the 1958 World Cup never took place in Sweden. They say it was all a big hoax, staged by the American secret service for the purpose of testing television's influence on people. "Conspiracy 58" raises important questions and forces viewers to ask themselves whether television always presents a truthful and objective picture of events.

Hey, it's no crazier than seeing faces in the WTC smoke. Any guesses how many Truthers would buy into this conspiracy?

[Horatius]

And it looks like someone (OnlyStL at LCF) has done the research KT should have done (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5367&view=findpost&p=12633848):

I found some mandatory changes in the fdr that were placed on all commercial aircraft..

QUOTE
In late 1997 the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) adopted a change requiring an increase in the number of recorded signals for flight data recorders (FDR). This rule change will affect many airplanes that operate under FAA rules, including all airplanes registered in the United States and those in other countries where regulatory authorities use the FAA rules as their own. Boeing is prepared to help operators meet the requirements of the rule change by its effective date, which varies according to each airplane's date of manufacture.


QUOTE
AIRPLANES MANUFACTURED AFTER OCTOBER 11, 1991.
The 34 required parameter groups for this category are all recorded, with a few exceptions (some of the required recording rates are not met for flight control surface positions, flight control inputs, or both). The rule gives operators until August 18, 2001, to comply. Since the rule became effective August 18, 1997, the FDR system changes required for airplanes manufactured after August 18, 2000, will affect only new production. The new-production part of the rule changes require 57 parameter groups to be recorded by August 18, 2001, and 88 parameter groups by August 18, 2002.


QUOTE
757S AND 767S MANUFACTURED BEFORE AUGUST 18, 2000 (PRODUCTION CUT-IN OF 57/88 PARAMETER GROUPS).
These models will need a new FDR frame and incorporation of the service bulletins for correction of EICAS filtering of flight control data resulting from PRR 54727 (757) and PRR B12710 (767). Boeing is working with its FDAU suppliers to develop a common data frame across all Boeing models.


My interpretation is that in order to comply with FAA new FDRs were to be installed by the August 2001 deadline...However, I believe (stated in previous post) that fdr and cvr are routinely replaced as part of preventive maintenance programs for commercial aircraft...


So we can put this one to rest as well. The cylindrical box is the FDR (you can see that on the label), and it's the one made by Honeywell, and would have been required to be replaced sometime between Aug. 1997 and Aug. 2001. Case Closed! Good work, OnlyStL!


Not that KT will admit anything.

[Rawkarma]

From the LCF's thread dealing with Killclowns account on YouTube:

i am from Iran, but I come to toronto to learn english and do university here. i saw the film in iran when i lived there

Sorry we are ****ing up your country. I was opposed to invading there.

Clearly KT is stupid, but just how many facts is this clown lacking? Could this point to Killtown's real agenda as a disinfo agent provocateur? I highly doubt this, but could it be: KT is working hard to distract and/or discredit the twoofers' with 12 min chitfests on google and lies on LCF about which countries we have attacked [add Snoopy shouting "COINTELPRO"], as this claim of opposing an alleged invasion of Iran could be showing?

I stand by original opinion that KT is just a dolt, but I'll leave Snoopy to ponder this throughout the night.

[Oliver]

Sorry for all this small talk, Killtown. But there's nothing to debunk. :con2:

[boloboffin]

The entire video rests on a single premise - if the plane didn't crash there.

If it did, the video is a wash.

It's only worth watching to observe the blatant propaganda techniques - particularly the use of the soundtrack in order to reward the viewer for "connecting the dots."

[Horatius]

The entire video rests on a single premise - if the plane didn't crash there.

If it did, the video is a wash.

It's only worth watching to observe the blatant propaganda techniques - particularly the use of the soundtrack in order to reward the viewer for "connecting the dots."



I particularly liked the "quiet day in the forest" sounds he laid over the scenes of the crash site. Very respectful.......

[Mince]

Right, im with ya KT: the government is planting tin and scrap metal to make it look just right; even going to the lengths of idiocy in clearing off all the dirt for these photos so we can see the mistake in the label's even clearer?


And they would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling Killtowns.

[Unfit4Command]

I particularly liked the "quiet day in the forest" sounds he laid over the scenes of the crash site. Very respectful.......

Yeah, I thought that was a bit odd as well. The video is so flawed, it doesn't look at any of the evidence with an open mind, all it says is "no plane crashed here, so this must be planted, this is why." and ALL the the "evidence" for the black boxes being planted is pure speculation.

"Airplane part? Or a piece of tin?"
"Why is this piece of wood in the crash site?"

I'm sure that when the black boxes were found in the crater, they were propped up with wooden planks to make the pictures more "dramatic."

[Mince]

once again, troofers who claim to want to "take america back" are censoring the living bejesus out of those that don't agree. I commented that this video was the worst 12 minutes of my life...

BUH-LEETED

I said I saw the virgin mary in my toast.

BUH-LEETED

What is the truth coming to if all you want is to be surrounded by people that agree with everything you say?


And then they cry cencorship when their videos are deleted from Google, etc.


http://www.surefireproxy.com/cgi-bin/nph-proxy.pl/000110A/http/z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php=3fshowtopic=3d5349

[Mince]

Well I wanna know why black boxes aren't black!!!!!!!! I mean seriously - Orange, black boxes??? So the gubmint has been lying to us. They never found black boxes, but orange ones...................And made by two different companies. Well thats it. Pearl harbor was obviously a black or should I say, orange flag operation



If the black box is the only thing that survives an airplane crash, why don't the make the airplane out of the black box?

[~enigma~]

That would make me.. agnostic.An agnostic is an athiest that's afraid to admit it.

[Brainster]

If the black box is the only thing that survives an airplane crash, why don't the make the airplane out of the black box?



Probably because you would not get the sucker off the ground. And (concerning matters in this forum) because they'd be hellacious on whatever they hit.

Killclown's video is indeed moronic, but how many of these idjits are in the "no planes" somewhere camp? I mean, we got the no-planers at the Pentagon, the no-planers at the WTC; don't the no-planers at Shanksville seem a logical extension of an illogical premise?

[apathoid]

Cross posting from Killtowns Loose Change thread.

Haven't read the whole thread and apparently there is some confusion about which recorder is which. The cylinder is whats called a Crash Survivable Memory Unit(CSMU) and it is what is taken back to the labs and read from. The recorder itself isnt all that indestructable and is rectangular in shape.
Both the new Honeywell SSFDRs and SSCVRs utilize a similar looking CSMU(cylinder), so its difficult to tell which recorder the cylinder came from.

However, there is a photo of a more rectangular CSMU in the Honeywell SSFDR lab in the United 93 FDR Study (http://www.ntsb.gov/info/UAL93FDR.pdf) document which might indicate that it is a different model. You also have this photo, clearly showing the "Flight Recorder Do Not Open" markings indicating that is a CSMU. It's clearly rectangular.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41554000/jpg/_41554882_416cvr_ap.jpg

Now, is the rectangular CSMU 'older' technology or 'newer' technology? Is it the predecessor, or the successor? The answer is the former.


In this photo, an Allied Signal SSFDR with a rectangular CSMU sits alongside an SSFDR with a cylindrical CSMU.

http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/symp_rec/proceedings/authors/Thompson-25.gif

The caption reads "AlliedSignal have demonstrated, with their AR-Series recorders, which are TSO C-123a and C-124a compliant, that the recorder's physical size and weight, can be reduced dramatically from the current ½-ATR-Long format (19.6"L x 6.1"H x 4.8"W) and 18 - 20 pounds, to one of only 9.0"L x 5.5"H x 4.5"W and less than 9.0 pounds. "

Link (http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/symp_rec/proceedings/authors/thompson.htm)

The longer recorder is the older version and its CSMU is rectangular.

So, now we know what's what. The Honeywell CSMU cylinder is from a newer model recorder and it belongs to the CVR. The Allied Signal CSMU is rectangular and its from an older model FDR.

Why would they be different? Why would the CVR be newer?

There could be many reasons. Maybe the original CVR was a 30 minute recorder and United wanted all their CVRs replaced by 120 minute recorders. My airline started the 120 minute CVR upgrades in May of 2000 for the 757 fleet. Maybe the original failed and was replaced with a brand new factory spare.

It has also been pointed out that the FDRs were modified to add new parameters and perhaps maybe it is the FDR CSMU that had the Honeywell placard. Its true that the FDRs were modified in every 757 fleet, however the FDR need not be replaced with a newer model. The modifcation entailed a replacement of the Digital Flight Data Aquisition Unit(DFDAU) and a wiring modifcation to the DFDAU rack. I think some programming pins for the FDR needed to be grounded as well....

Other comments on the film. If you want to talk about suspicious FDR and CVR discoveries, read up on Valujet 592. The recorders, which sat 6 inches apart, were found days apart, and dozens of yards apart at the crash scene. How did that happen? Conspiracy?

[ref]

Good job, Apathoid.

That thread however is so misleading. A plane crashed there and everybody onboard was ID'ed. There's no reason to plant evidence. Killtown twists the story so much, that he has people now debating over something totally irrelevant.

[rjh01]

Well I wanna know why black boxes aren't black!!!!!!!! I mean seriously - Orange, black boxes??? So the gubmint has been lying to us. They never found black boxes, but orange ones...................And made by two different companies. Well thats it. Pearl harbor was obviously a black or should I say, orange flag operation

Black boxes are orange to make them easier to find in a crash. Not sure why they are called Black boxes.

[hellaeon]

I don't understand this at all. Everything in that entire video could have been more concisely (and less ridiculously) presented on one short webpage. Why does it have to be a video at all? I almost feel embarrassed for the CTers who produce this rubbish. It's like when eager school teachers first discover PowerPoint, and suddenly every lesson becomes 50 awkward, animated slides.


heh I think along these lines. I imagine they are computer 'noobs' of varying ages who just recently discovered the net and then came across these crazy sites promoting crazy theories as real life. The shock of finding such anarchistic pages brings a rebellious 6th sense come over them. Its like having sex again for the first time. They are so blown away.

[JimBenArm]

Black boxes are orange to make them easier to find in a crash. Not sure why they are called Black boxes.
A Black Box is a unit whose internal workings are just accepted, without detailed circuit drawings. Mostly a shorthand way for a tech to designate a complicated device that would get replaced as a whole instead of bothering to troubleshoot it down to component level.

[gumboot]

Probably because you would not get the sucker off the ground. And (concerning matters in this forum) because they'd be hellacious on whatever they hit.



You'd probably find an aircraft made like a black box, hitting a building or the ground at 500MPH would also disintegrate. Part of the reason the blackboxes survive is because the rest of the aircraft absorbs so much of the impact, and because they're so small.

Think on this... take a brand new pencil and try and snap it in half. Pretty easy. Now pick up one of the halves and try snap that using the same force. Not so easy! If you succeed, take the quarter piece and try snap THAT using the same force. Exactly the same materials. Same density. Even the same in one dimension. Only one dimension changed, but it makes all the difference.

-Gumboot

[CptColumbo]

Black boxes are orange to make them easier to find in a crash. Not sure why they are called Black boxes.

So the television reporters can seem to know what their talking about.

"Have you found the 'Black Box?'"

I notice Wikipedia doesn't list the theatre term for "black box."

[Rawkarma]

Killtown twists the story so much, that he has people now debating over something totally irrelevant

(Rawkarma walks in the room)

(Snoopy looking agitated and frothing at the mouth)

Rawkarma: What's the matter Scoob?

(Scooby finding it hard to speak; drooling uncontrollably)

Rawkarma: Here try this

(passes Scooby some gatorade which he proceeds to drink)

Rawkarma: Better? Now, what was it you were trying to say?

Scooby: COINTELPRO!!!!

[tacodaemon]

Killclown's video is indeed moronic, but how many of these idjits are in the "no planes" somewhere camp? I mean, we got the no-planers at the Pentagon, the no-planers at the WTC; don't the no-planers at Shanksville seem a logical extension of an illogical premise?


Killclown's a "no planes at all anywhere" nut, isn't he? I remember Dylan has repeatedly been ticked off at him for being so ridiculously kooky, and I think there was recently a vote on whether to ban him from LCF. I think KT's just staking out Shanksville as his no-planer turf because the WTC and Pentagon have already been claimed by more prominent no-planers.

[mailman]

So has the woo been to Shanksville yet? Did he go there to do research for his video or did he do all his research from the basement of his mums house?

Mailman

[Horatius]

Cross posting from Killtowns Loose Change thread.

So, now we know what's what. The Honeywell CSMU cylinder is from a newer model recorder and it belongs to the CVR. The Allied Signal CSMU is rectangular and its from an older model FDR.






I was wondering how you determined that the newer model was the CVR. It's not clear to me from your links how you distinguished the two. In fact, it looks to me like any individual recorder could play either role. As well, from this earlier information (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2419571#post2419571), we know the FDR was to be changed, so wouldn't the newer model more likely be the FDR?

Later in the LCF thread (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5367&view=findpost&p=12653978), it's mentioned that newer CVRs record 120 minutes of voice, and that the NTSB claims of only having 30 minutes is therefore a lie. I'm wondering if you got them backwards, or if the model you posted does not, in fact, record for 120 minutes.

Or maybe there's some reason why they could only recover that much data?

[apathoid]

I was wondering how you determined that the newer model was the CVR. It's not clear to me from your links how you distinguished the two. In fact, it looks to me like any individual recorder could play either role. As well, from this earlier information (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2419571#post2419571), we know the FDR was to be changed, so wouldn't the newer model more likely be the FDR?

Later in the LCF thread (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5367&view=findpost&p=12653978), it's mentioned that newer CVRs record 120 minutes of voice, and that the NTSB claims of only having 30 minutes is therefore a lie. I'm wondering if you got them backwards, or if the model you posted does not, in fact, record for 120 minutes.

Or maybe there's some reason why they could only recover that much data?


The CSMU in the photo on page 2 of the NTSB United 93 FDR Study (http://www.ntsb.gov/info/UAL93FDR.pdf) is squarish. The document also mentions that the manufacterer of the FDR is Allied Signal, not Honeywell. There were only 2 CSMUs at the crash site. Process of elimination says that the cylinder is from the CVR.

And I already explained why the FDR didn't have to replaced to accomodate the new parameters.

It has also been pointed out that the FDRs were modified to add new parameters and perhaps maybe it is the FDR CSMU that had the Honeywell placard. Its true that the FDRs were modified in every 757 fleet, however the FDR need not be replaced with a newer model. The modifcation entailed a replacement of the Digital Flight Data Aquisition Unit(DFDAU) and a wiring modifcation to the DFDAU rack. I think some programming pins for the FDR needed to be grounded as well....


I've done these modifications before and I also searched the Engineering archive for 757 FDR modifications and none of them replace the FDR itself, only the DFDAU, which is the device that streams the collected data from all the systems to the FDR.

ETA: Its also possible that they included a photo of the wrong unit in the FDR study, but i seriously doubt it.

[peteweaver]

I closed the page after 5 minutes into that idiotic video.

I closed it after one.

Proper documentaries dont need music.

[SezMe]

The aspect that tickled me was his emphasis on the "soft earth". He seems to think that "soft" is what is soft to his fist, not to a 500 mph plane. He's an idiot of the first magnitude.

[Horatius]

The CSMU in the photo on page 2 of the NTSB United 93 FDR Study (http://www.ntsb.gov/info/UAL93FDR.pdf) is squarish. The document also mentions that the manufacterer of the FDR is Allied Signal, not Honeywell. There were only 2 CSMUs at the crash site. Process of elimination says that the cylinder is from the CVR.




Okay, that makes sense, but there does seem to be a discrepancy in IDing each unit in the photos. But I guess the NTSB would be more likely to get it right.

So what do you think of the issue of the length of the CVR recording? Were they all converted to the 120 minute ones at that point or not? This is the closest they've ever come to a real smoking gun, so I think we need to spend some time clearing this up.

[apathoid]

So what do you think of the issue of the length of the CVR recording? Were they all converted to the 120 minute ones at that point or not? This is the closest they've ever come to a real smoking gun, so I think we need to spend some time clearing this up.

I really don't think so. When I get to work, I'll search the electronic logbooks for several 757s to see if and when the 120 minute CVRs were installed. If I can find some installed after 9/11/01 - they have nothing.

Honway has also deduced from reading a single NTSB document that all Solid State CVRs are 120 minutes. That is completely false. He's now saying that per FAA regs, all the CVRs need to be 120 minutes. Even if thats true now, which I don't think is the case, I have already proven that this was not the case as of 09/04/01. And again, I can confirm it by searching the logbooks.

Pretty soon, they'll be back to analyzing wires, dirt and metal scraps..

[Horatius]

Pretty soon, they'll be back to analyzing wires, dirt and metal scraps..



Yeah, I pretty much expect that too, but it's nice to have an actual new argument to debunk, don't you think? It gets old going over the same stuff again and again!

Thanks!

[Oliver]

The aspect that tickled me was his emphasis on the "soft earth". He seems to think that "soft" is what is soft to his fist, not to a 500 mph plane. He's an idiot of the first magnitude.


And he doesn't even deny this fact:

"So what have you guys concluded? (and please explain it simple for the rest of us......)"

...ANONYMOUS, CHILDISH, DUMB...
COWARDS!!! ;)

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5367&st=150&#entry12661520

[Regnad Kcin]

The aspect that tickled me was his emphasis on the "soft earth". He seems to think that "soft" is what is soft to his fist, not to a 500 mph plane. He's an idiot of the first magnitude.Bolding mine.

You didn't really mean to write that, did you?

[SezMe]

Well, OK. But I'll take two points for using the word, "seems". :)

[ref]

I really don't think so. When I get to work, I'll search the electronic logbooks for several 757s to see if and when the 120 minute CVRs were installed. If I can find some installed after 9/11/01 - they have nothing.

Honway has also deduced from reading a single NTSB document that all Solid State CVRs are 120 minutes. That is completely false. He's now saying that per FAA regs, all the CVRs need to be 120 minutes. Even if thats true now, which I don't think is the case, I have already proven that this was not the case as of 09/04/01. And again, I can confirm it by searching the logbooks.

Pretty soon, they'll be back to analyzing wires, dirt and metal scraps..

You've done an excellent job with this one, Apathoid. Is it inappropriate to ask, what your profession is? Until now, I had no idea you had special knowledge concerning aircrafts.

As of the video itself, I still wonder what they are trying to prove. If those boxes were planted, they should explain how all the bodies got there and were positively identified. Because they were. They should explain all the eyewitnesses. All the aircraft parts. Now they focus on two boxes found at the scene, ignoring everything else. But you've done a good job doing this detailed debunking.

[apathoid]

You've done an excellent job with this one, Apathoid. Is it inappropriate to ask, what your profession is? Until now, I had no idea you had special knowledge concerning aircrafts.

Its not inappropriate at all, ref. I'm an Aviation Maintenance Technician/Avionics Technician for a major airline. I've done everything from shooting rivets, to engine changes, to troubleshooting autopilot problems, and I've worked extensively on the 757/767. I have to admit that I really don't know a whole heck of alot about CVRs and FDRs as those are not systems that frequently require maintenance, but I know enough to be able to counter some of Killtowns latest "findings". Plus, we have Anti-Sophist who literally designs devices like the FDR, so we have the black boxes pretty well covered. ;)

[ref]

Its not inappropriate at all, ref. I'm an Aviation Maintenance Technician/Avionics Technician for a major airline. I've done everything from shooting rivets, to engine changes, to troubleshooting autopilot problems, and I've worked extensively on the 757/767. I have to admit that I really don't know a whole heck of alot about CVRs and FDRs as those are not systems that frequently require maintenance, but I know enough to be able to counter some of Killtowns latest "findings". Plus, we have Anti-Sophist who literally designs devices like the FDR, so we have the black boxes pretty well covered. ;)

Ok, it's great to have this kind of expertise at our disposal. :)

[Horatius]

Ok, it's great to have this kind of expertise at our disposal. :)



Not to mention, we all know when we should be consulting them, rather than just blathering on like twoofers!

[gumboot]

Ok, it's great to have this kind of expertise at our disposal. :)


I made a thread once where I got people to list their relevant expertise in 9/11 related fields. It was quite impressive. I'll try dig it up.

-Gumboot

[Horatius]

I think apathoid need to set Terrorcell straight on one issue (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5367&view=findpost&p=12661625):

QUOTE (apathoid)
two likely explanations.

The CVR in the photo was not on United 93.

The CVR information was manipulated, including editting out an hour and a half.




That's huge!!!!!!!

And remember apathoid is not a "truther".


Those two possibilities were introduced by honway (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5367&view=findpost&p=12660374), not apathoid. I told them the quote functions on that board were lame!

[apathoid]

I think apathoid need to set Terrorcell straight on one issue (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5367&view=findpost&p=12661625):
QUOTE (apathoid)
two likely explanations.

The CVR in the photo was not on United 93.

The CVR information was manipulated, including editting out an hour and a half.

:eek:
How on Earth did I miss that?!

[ref]

Apathoid, that Honeywell link proving the existence of 30min recorders really sealed the case.

[apathoid]

Apathoid, that Honeywell link proving the existence of 30min recorders really sealed the case.

Yeah, and I think that 777 incident was a pretty good find as well. It shows that United still had at least one 30 minute solid state CVR installed in 2004. Pretty much destroys both the "there are no 30 minute SSCVRs" and the "the FAA requires all CVRs to be 120 minute, solid state models " notions.

FWIW, I believe honway when he says that all American Airlines CVRs were 120 minute models by Sept 2001. I havent looked yet, but I kinda have the feeling that my employer was "all 120" as well. But, we do know that United was not.

[ref]

Yeah, and I think that 777 incident was a pretty good find as well. It shows that United still had at least one 30 minute solid state CVR installed in 2004. Pretty much destroys both the "there are no 30 minute SSCVRs" and the "the FAA requires all CVRs to be 120 minute, solid state models " notions.

FWIW, I believe honway when he says that all American Airlines CVRs were 120 minute models by Sept 2001. I havent looked yet, but I kinda have the feeling that my employer was "all 120" as well. But, we do know that United was not.

So we know your employer is not UA nor AA ;)

This discussion has been very enjoyable to follow. Kinda strange, you had an actual evidence based discussion at LCF with no significant name calling and ridicule from their part. That's weird :) And you got their smoking gun pretty much solved and debunked.

[chippy]

Killtown said on the other forum that he thinks that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's confession to 9/11 came because of the video he released 2 days ago.

He's the most egotistical person I've ever known.

[Kryptos]

I saw the beginning then skipped to the last minute. The "credits" section was awful, the text scrolling very jerky and beyond amateur.

[Kryptos]

Killtown said on the other forum that he thinks that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's confession to 9/11 came because of the video he released 2 days ago.

You're kidding right? Killtown really said that?

[peteweaver]

Killtown said on the other forum that he thinks that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's confession to 9/11 came because of the video he released 2 days ago.

He's the most egotistical person I've ever known.

I think that's beyond egotistical, I think its a sign of narcissistic personality disorder.

[NickUK]

Killtown said on the other forum that he thinks that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's confession to 9/11 came because of the video he released 2 days ago.

He's the most egotistical person I've ever known.

Any chance of a link to that one Chippy?

[Gravy]

Any chance of a link to that one Chippy?
It's here (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5499&st=0&#entry12679822). He does follow it with a :P, so he may be joking, or he may be bragging.

[The Doc]

It's here (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5499&st=0&#entry12679822). He does follow it with a :P, so he may be joking, or he may be bragging.

Good find. I'd have to say I'd put my money on joking.

But Terrorcell certainly wasn't where - in the same therad - he claims that "The Pentacon" had something to do with KSM's statement. Apparently the USG saw the "BBC WTC7 footage" and "The Pentacon" and thought the pressure was building - so they released this.

Terrorcell is, quite simply, insane if he actually believes this.

[Horatius]

It's here (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5499&st=0&#entry12679822). He does follow it with a :P, so he may be joking, or he may be bragging.



Did you guys miss the scary part? KT refers to this as "the first segment" of his movie. There's more coming! EEEEK!

[peteweaver]

Good find. I'd have to say I'd put my money on joking.

But Terrorcell certainly wasn't where - in the same therad - he claims that "The Pentacon" had something to do with KSM's statement. Apparently the USG saw the "BBC WTC7 footage" and "The Pentacon" and thought the pressure was building - so they released this.

Terrorcell is, quite simply, insane if he actually believes this.

I'd have left it at "Terrorcell is, quite simply, insane". Just been reading through the stuff they come out with!! Scary. :eek:

The conspiracy theorists go on and on about tyranny, and then fail to reallise that in countries let by tyranical dictatorships dissidents go missing, and end up dead. Dictatorships are not squeamish about silencing their enemies. The mere existance of CT's is sometimes enough to disprove their point.

[Miragememories]

I thought the video made some interesting points.

In typical JREF fashion, you folks target presentation method (why not text), music choice, music copyrite infringement issues, dislike of killtown, yada yada yada...

If those evidence photos were taken where the blackboxes were found;

Why was there unburned wood in the one photo, at scene that was supposed to have been an inferno?

Why was there no visible burn damage.

Curious that in the absence of much recognizable debris, both black boxes remained intact, unscorched, and with sufficient outside labeling to be readily identifiable.

The black boxes looked 'cleaned up' and placed at a different location.

The contradictory identification of which FDR was which, was odd.

The 'unexpected' Honeywell marking was a curious anomaly.

Considering how the crash site at Shanksville was so unspectacular, the many points raised in Killtown's video add value to the need for further proper investigaton.

MM

[Horatius]

Curious that in the absence of much recognizable debris, both black boxes remained intact, unscorched, and with sufficient outside labeling to be readily identifiable.

The 'unexpected' Honeywell marking was a curious anomaly.





These are really the only two points that amount to anything more than, "Gee that looks funny". We'll probably never be able to explain the funny bits, as we are not privy to the details of when, where and why these particular photos were taken.

As for the first point, well, that's what these boxes are designed to do. If that bothers you, take it up with the engineers.

As for the second point, it has more than adequately been explained by apathoid in the thread over at LCF. Take a look.

[Regnad Kcin]

In typical JREF fashion...Of course you're mistaken. But if exaggeration makes you feel all warm and cuddly...

[CptColumbo]

Of course you're mistaken. But if exaggeration makes you feel all warm and cuddly...

Typical CT/prisonplanet fashion. :)

[peteweaver]

Haha Killtown's now complaining cos youtube deleted his account. He think's they are in on a conspiracy aswell lol. The thought that his videos may be offensive insulting and libellous, and that that might have something to do with his ban hasn't crossed his mind lol.

[jhunter1163]

I seem to remember something in the paper about YouTube/Google being sued for $1 billion (with a B, folks) over copyright infringement. The fact that pretty much every one of KT's videos violates someone's copyright probably never occurred to him either.

[ref]

I seem to remember something in the paper about YouTube/Google being sued for $1 billion (with a B, folks) over copyright infringement. The fact that pretty much every one of KT's videos violates someone's copyright probably never occurred to him either.

Sued by Viacom.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17592285/

[mailman]

You recall correctly indeed.

Mailman