Former Homosexual/Born Again Christian Says 'No one is born gay'

[billiefan2000]

http://cbn.org/CBNNews/News/030721a.asp

[Lord Kenneth]

'you will never have a former black man on your show, but today you have a former homosexual.'"

Michael Jackson.



So, billiefan2000, you can actually decide who you are attracted to? HOW? I really, really want to know, I've been trying to do this myself.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
http://cbn.org/CBNNews/News/030721a.asp

Wow! Imagine that someone on Pat Robertson's TV channel would say that!

The next you know they will be saying that it is OK to get your girlfriend pregant about 10 weeks before the marriage provided that you back-date the wedding to the date when conception occurred.

Oh wait a moment! Pat Robertson has already done that exact thing.

:p

[Hexxenhammer]

I found a similar article:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3407/churchhomosexual.html

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
http://cbn.org/CBNNews/News/030721a.asp And how is Stephen Bennett an authority for the genetics behind homosexuality? What are his credentials? They weren't mentioned in the article.

[Dancing David]

Hey Billiefan, one christian proves the case right. Well I am a former christian and I say that it is bunch of hogwash, anyone who belongs to a church is farther from christ than a dog!

There is scientific proff that christianity is hogwash.

[Yahweh]

I've always questioned whether gay was really a choice. If it was, it would certainly be easier to go with the rest of the crowd and avoid the ridicule and intolerance that is so common today.

By the way, its not that hard to find gay Christians... yep, theyre out there if you look hard enough...

[Peter Jenkins]

This person, admittedly, has a certain amount of personal experience, but where is his research? what percentage cross-section of the homosexual community has he sampled (!?!).
just because a diamond is composed of carbon it does not mean that all carbon is in the form of diamonds.
Peter

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Yahweh
I've always questioned whether gay was really a choice. If it was, it would certainly be easier to go with the rest of the crowd and avoid the ridicule and intolerance that is so common today.

By the way, its not that hard to find gay Christians... yep, theyre out there if you look hard enough...
Yup. Some of them (http://www.spiritone.com/~isc/lovewelcomesall.html) aren't even ashamed of it.
:jaw:

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Upchurch
And how is Stephen Bennett an authority for the genetics behind homosexuality? What are his credentials? They weren't mentioned in the article.



For more information on Stephen Bennett and Stephen Bennett Ministries please visit his web site at



http://www.sbministries.org

[billiefan2000]

Originally posted by Peter Jenkins
This person, admittedly, has a certain amount of personal experience, but where is his research? what percentage cross-section of the homosexual community has he sampled (!?!).
just because a diamond is composed of carbon it does not mean that all carbon is in the form of diamonds.
Peter

For more information on Stephen Bennett and Stephen Bennett Ministries please visit his web site at



http://www.sbministries.org/.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by billiefan2000



For more information on Stephen Bennett and Stephen Bennett Ministries please visit his web site at



http://www.sbministries.org
From the articleStephen Bennett is a Christian Song Writer and Recording Artist whose music can be heard nationally on Christian radio. Stephen, his family and Ministry Team travel across the country sharing his music, message and incredible, life changing story. You see, Stephen was a homosexual, drug addict and dealer, as well as alcoholic and bulimic, until he walked away from it all in 1992. His story and music have touched the hearts of millions worldwide - offering a message of hope and love to those struggling with homosexuality, as well as family and friends of those involved in the homosexual lifestyle. If you are not familiar with Stephen's story, we ask that you first read it by clicking here.

Stephen Bennett lived the life of a homosexual until he was 28 years old. Alcoholic, bulimic and a drug addict, his destructive life style nearly killed him. Over 11 years actively as a promiscuous homosexual with countless male partners, many of Stephen's friends are now dead from AIDS. Finally, while happily involved in a long term committed relationship with a man Stephen was in love with, Stephen's lifestyle was confronted by a Christian knocking at his door with a Bible in her hand. He would never be the same again.

That was over eleven years ago. Today at 39 years old, Stephen is happily married ten years to a beautiful Christian woman Irene who knew him when he was 'gay' and never stopped praying for him. Stephen and Irene are the parents of two beautiful little children, a boy and a girl. Their passion and commitment as a couple and as a family is to make a difference in the lives of millions - with the truth.Still don't see anything about his genetic research or his credentials. What makes him an authority, billie?

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Upchurch

From the articleStill don't see anything about his genetic research or his credentials. What makes him an authority, billie?

I think Billie believes that since Stephen farts in the lower registers he is an expert.

[billiefan2000]

and that is proof enough that people arent born gay.

[Yahweh]

What makes him an authority, billie?
Dont you forget Upchurch, life experience makes your opinions and beliefs more correct than those who never went through it... infact, this character drug dealer/user which as we all know enhances your credibility (give him a medal)... and he's famous (sorta), fame always gives you an advantage over others based on the "Just cuz I'm famous" principle.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
and that is proof enough that people arent born gay.
That is far from "proof". Would you care to elaborate.

[Upchurch]

What it sounds like to me is that Bennet is either a heterosexual who thought he was gay or a homosexual who currently thinks he's straight. Regardless, this doesn't prove his statement that "no one is born gay". At best it only goes to show that enviromental forces/pressure can be a factor in determining sexual orientation.

What I object to is Bennet saying some people are wrong for being themselves.



Yikes, does his wife look like a guy in drag or what?

[Filippo Lippi]

I was angry about this post until I realised that these aren't Billiefan's thoughts, he can't think for himself. He can't even write his own sentences, he cuts and pastes them the RaptureReady message board.

The people who spout this garbage in the first place, the people "who speak to god," them's evil.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
he is a ex-homosexual turned Christian and that is proof enough that people arent born gay. And, as mentioned, there are ex-Christians turned atheist. Is that proof enough that Christians are really atheists?

That's an indefensible argument, billie.

[Tricky]

Careful with your adulation, Billiefan. You could wind up badly embarrased like the "you can be cured" crowd was by the John Paulk (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/2020/2020_010302_exgays.html) fiasco.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
and that is proof enough that people arent born gay.

No, not quite. It may be some evidence that *he* wasn't born gay, but you can't extrapolate that back to all gays.

[billiefan2000]

The media is the major conduit today of the gay agenda.

They are out there pushing their false agenda, that number one, a person is born gay, and number two, that no one can change, for example, just as a person cannot change their race or skin color.


But I said to the producer at CBS and the interview, 'you will never have a former black man on your show, but today you have a former homosexual.'"

-- Stephen Bennett

Stephen Bennett Ministries

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
They are out there pushing their false agenda, that number one, a person is born gay, and number two, that no one can change, for example, just as a person cannot change their race or skin color. What makes you think that some people aren't born gay? Homosexuality has been around as long as people have been around.

Further, there are a lot of factors that can effect one's sexual orientation, just like there are a lot of factors that can effect one's physical attributes. One can be naturally skinny and pale, or one can sun bathe, eat right, and bulk up. One can be naturally gay or one can deny their inner impulses and act straight.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Tricky
Careful with your adulation, Billiefan. You could wind up badly embarrased like the "you can be cured" crowd was by the John Paulk (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/2020/2020_010302_exgays.html) fiasco.

Great counter story Tricky...

Here is some of the ' Proof ', I'm sure Billie will appreciate..

I asked Exodus for statistics that show how many people who try to change succeed. They say they keep no records, that it's "impossible to keep track" but believe that "thousands have been successful."

( My bold ) Why is it ' impossible ' to keep track?

[hgc]

Originally posted by Tricky
Careful with your adulation, Billiefan. You could wind up badly embarrased like the "you can be cured" crowd was by the John Paulk (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/2020/2020_010302_exgays.html) fiasco.
Here's the real sin: When this guy can't take the tension anymore, and reverts to practicing his natural inclinations, he'll leave the wreckage of his family in his wake.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Diogenes

Why is it ' impossible ' to keep track? Because you never know how many sneak into gay bars to "use the bathroom"

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
The media is the major conduit today of the gay agenda.

They are out there pushing their false agenda, that number one, a person is born gay, and number two, that no one can change, for example, just as a person cannot change their race or skin color.


But I said to the producer at CBS and the interview, 'you will never have a former black man on your show, but today you have a former homosexual.'"

-- Stephen Bennett

Stephen Bennett Ministries
I'm beginning to think this Stephen Bennet not be the roundest marble in the bag...

[Jet Grind]

Billiefan, I have to tell you this since no one else will.

You're...a...f%^&ing....idiot.

Say it thirteen times so that it can sink in. You can't think for yourself, all you do is come here and post links to rediculous stories that no one cares about. None of this is proof that people aren't born gay. It's just proof that your a brainwashed littled fundamentalist retard.

Do yourself a favor and leave these fora voluntarily, you're doing nothing but embarrassing yourself here.

P.S. We all know that the "gay agenda" is nothing but an xian newspeak term for "everyone should share our hatred of homosexuals." If you really want to know what's dangerous to our society right now, you should take a look at your own Hitlerian, Anti-Federalist, Christian Reconstuctionist agenda.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
and that is proof enough that people arent born gay.

He is bi-sexual! And still is.

[calladus]

God hates Redheads!

Hi, my name is Calladus, and I’m a reformed Redhead. I encourage men and women to successfully and permanently overcome their unwanted Redheadedness. I firmly believe no one is born a ‘flamehead’ and that unnatural Redheadedness develops early on in childhood; by biblically dealing with the root cause(s) of one's hair color, Redheadedness can be completely overcome - just as drug addiction, alcoholism or any other sinful behavior. Men and women can then move on to a healthy hair color - as part of God's original design and plan for man and woman.

Red hair can be overcome – I myself experimented with being a Redhead, but when the local store ran out of hair color, I KNEW it was God’s will that I reform! I am now back to my original, God given, black hair.

One of my friends, a Mr. Sean O’donnel, claims that he was born a Redhead. Friends, this is a lie from Satan! Through prayer, bible study, and patience, I was able to show Sean the error of his ways. It took a lot of prayer on Sean’s part, but he worked at it for years, and through his mighty effort we saw the last of his Red hair fade away, just in time for his 54th birthday! Halleluiah!

Remember, Red hair is a sin, a mark of witchcraft, drugs, and decedent lifestyle. If you are an unrepentant Redhead, then you will soon find yourself in Hell with Lucille Ball.

[Upchurch]

Actually, do you know what the real gay agenda is for most of the homosexuals are out there? To be treated just like everybody else and not to be ashamed of who they are. Pretty much the same thing that everyone else wants, really.

[Jet Grind]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Actually, do you know what the real gay agenda is for most of the homosexuals are out there? To be treated just like everybody else and not to be ashamed of who they are. Pretty much the same thing that everyone else wants, really.

I know, my post was mostly a knee-jerk reaction to all this flagrant spamming that billiefan engages in.

[Crossbow]

I know someone who started his adult life by being an intelligent, well educated, articulate, ordained minister who was married and had four children.

Almost 40 years ago, he left his family, resigned his ministry, and became involved with another man. They have recently celebrated their 37th anniversary.

This is all true by the way. Although I am keeping the details to a minimum just to keep the post down to reasonable length.

So billie, do you still say that no one is 'born gay'?

[Filippo Lippi]

Location: USA
Posts: 507
chan...
The media is the major conduit today of the gay agenda.

They are out there pushing their false agenda, that number one, a person is born gay, and number two, that no one can change, for example, just as a person cannot change their race or skin color.


But I said to the producer at CBS and the interview, 'you will never have a former black man on your show, but today you have a former homosexual.'"



Hey, I can cut and paste too. I don't have to think for myself.

[Yahweh]

you will never have a former black man on your show
Michael Jackson proves that "former black men" can and do exist... all it takes is a lot of surgery, skin bleaching, and rigorous avoidance of natural sunlight, and eventually you'll see that black skin just start to melt away (literally).

[TexasBEAST]

I coulda sworn a read in the Bible a gazillion times that we are "predestinated" to be exactly the way we are. God chose our lots in life, and we have no real control over it whatsoever. If we get out of bed in the morning and go to the left, God did it. If we say something impressive, God did it. If we go to war, God did it. If we convert to Christianity, God did it.

Seems to me, if we live a gay lifestyle, um, God did that, too.

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
The media is the major conduit today of the gay agenda.



The Homosexual Agenda

8:00 a.m. Wake up. Wonder where you are.

8:01 a.m. Realize you are lying on 100 percent cotton sheets of at least a 300 count, so don't panic; you're not slumming.

8:02 a.m. Realize you are actually in your own bed for a change. Wake stranger next to you and tell them you are late for work so won't be able to cook breakfast for them. Mutter "sorry" as you help him look for his far-flung underwear. You find out that you tore his boxers while ripping them off him last night, so you "loan" him a pair of boxer-briefs, but not the new ones because you never intend to see him again.

8:05 a.m. Tell the stranger, whose name eludes you, "It was fun. I'll give you a call," as you usher him out the door, avoiding his egregious morning-breath.

8:06 a.m. Crumple and dispose of the piece of paper with his telephone number on it when you get to the kitchen.

8:07 a.m. Make a high protein breakfast while watching the Today show. Wonder if the stories you've heard about Matt Lauer are true. Decide they must be.

8:30 a.m. Italian or domestic? Decide to go with three-button Italian and the only shirt that is clean.

8:45 a.m. Climb into red Z4 and try not to look too much like Barbie driving one of her accessories as you pull out of your underground parking. Revos or Armanis? Go with Revos.

9:35 a.m. Stroll into office.

9:36 a.m. Close door to office and call best friend and laugh about the guy who spent the night at your condo. Point out something annoying about best friend's boyfriend but quickly add "It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks, just as long as you love him."

10:15 a.m. Leave office, telling your secretary you are "meeting with a client." Pretend not to notice her insubordinate roll of her eyes (or the cloying "poem" she has tacked to her cubicle wall).

10:30 a.m. Hair appointment for lowlights and cut. Purchase of Aveda anti-humectant pomade.

11:30 a.m. Run into personal trainer at gym. Pester him about getting you Human Growth Hormone. Spend 30 minutes talking to friends on your cell phone while using Hammer Strength machines, preparing a mental-matrix of which circuit parties everyone is going to and which are now passe.

12:00pm Tan. Schedule back-waxing in time for Saturday party where you know you will end up shirtless.

12:30 p.m. Pay trainer for anabolic steroids and schedule a workout. Shower, taking ten minutes to knot your tie while you check-out your best friend's boyfriend undress with the calculation of someone used to wearing a t-back and having dollars stuffed in their crotch.

1:00 p.m. Meet someone for whom you only know his waist, chest and penis size from AOL M4M chat for lunch at a hot, new restaurant. Because the maître d' recognizes you from a gay bar, you are whisked past the Christian heterosexual couples who have been waiting patiently for a table since 12:30.

2:30 p.m. "Dessert at your place." Find out, once again, people lie on AOL.

3:33 p.m. Assume complete control of the U.S., state, and local governments (in addition to other nations' governments); destroy all healthy Christian marriages; recruit all children grades Kindergarten through 12 into your amoral, filthy lifestyle; secure complete control of the media, starting with sitcoms; molest innocent children; give AIDS to as many people as you can; host a pornographic "art" exhibit at your local art museum; and turn people away from Jesus, causing them to burn forever in Hell.

4:10 p.m. Time permitting, bring about the general decline of Western Civilization and look like you are having way too much fun doing it.

4:30 p.m. Take a disco-nap to prevent facial wrinkles from the stress of world conquest and being so terribly witty.

6:00 p.m. Open a fabulous new bottle of Malbec.

6:47 P.M. Bake Ketamine for weekend. Test recipe.

7:00 P.M. Go to Abercrombie & Fitch and announce in a loud voice, "Over!"

7:40 P.M. Stop looking at the photographic displays at Abercrombie & Fitch and go to a cool store to begin shopping.

8:30 p.m. Light dinner with catty homosexual friends at a restaurant you will be "over" by the time it gets its first review in the local paper.

10:30 p.m. Cocktails at a debauched gay bar, trying to avoid alcoholic queens who can't navigate a crowd with a lit cigarette in one hand and a Stoli in a cheap plastic cup in the other. Make audible remark about how "trashy" people who still think smoking is acceptable are.

12:00 a.m. "Nightcap at your place." Find out that people lie in bars, too.

Brought to you by
Thanks to Betty Bowers

http://www.bettybowers.com/homoagenda.html

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Pahansiri
Originally posted by billiefan2000
The media is the major conduit today of the gay agenda.

The Homosexual Agenda

8:00 a.m. Wake up..... Now, see. I've been watching the media for a long time and I didn't know any of this about the gay agenda. :eek:

Not a very good conduit, if you ask me. :rub:

[rwguinn]

Just as an exercise- I really don't care about your sexual orientation, as long as you don't keep bugging me about it. I'm straight, but have worked with and socialized with folks from both sides of the fence with aboslutely no problems, but I have always wondered:
If homosexuality is a genetic predisposition, why does it still exist? and seem to be becoming more predominant? I know- its more acceptable today, so we hear more about it-but wouldn't you think it would have been bred out by now? After all, Homosexuals don't breed, so the gene should be pretty much gone by now, one might think...:confused:

RW

[hgc]

Originally posted by Upchurch

The Homosexual Agenda

8:00 a.m. Wake up..... Now, see. I've been watching the media for a long time and I didn't know any of this about the gay agenda. :eek:

Not a very good conduit, if you ask me. :rub: It's insidious, like Satan.

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by rwguinn
Just as an exercise- I really don't care about your sexual orientation, as long as you don't keep bugging me about it. I'm straight, but have worked with and socialized with folks from both sides of the fence with aboslutely no problems, but I have always wondered:
If homosexuality is a genetic predisposition, why does it still exist? and seem to be becoming more predominant? I know- its more acceptable today, so we hear more about it-but wouldn't you think it would have been bred out by now? After all, Homosexuals don't breed, so the gene should be pretty much gone by now, one might think...:confused:

RW

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it has more to do with hormones and less to do with genetics.

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by Upchurch


The Homosexual Agenda

8:00 a.m. Wake up..... Now, see. I've been watching the media for a long time and I didn't know any of this about the gay agenda. :eek:

Not a very good conduit, if you ask me. :rub: [/QUOTE]

LOL. Yes the media wants to make everyone gay I guess so hmmmm so, well I guess so they can have all the girls?

[rwguinn]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer


Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it has more to do with hormones and less to do with genetics.

That could be true-but then, what causes the hormone changes, if not genetics?

RW

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by rwguinn
If homosexuality is a genetic predisposition, why does it still exist? and seem to be becoming more predominant? I know- its more acceptable today, so we hear more about it-but wouldn't you think it would have been bred out by now? After all, Homosexuals don't breed, so the gene should be pretty much gone by now, one might think...:confused: Lot of factors going on here. It's more noticable now because it is more acceptable for (1) gays to admit to everyone who they are and (2) gays to admit to themselves who they are.

Second of all, who says gays don't breed? Many gay men either don't come out of the closet or realize themselves that they are gay until after they've already been married and had children. It's not really fair to the family, but neither is lying to them. I'm hoping instances of this go down as the atmostphere allows gay men to open up to themselves and others.

[Earthborn]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it has more to do with hormones and less to do with genetics.Hormones? What kind of hormones? Homo-hormones?

You're not one of those people who believes that homosexuality is caused by an acess of 'female' hormones, are you? If so, please provide evidence.

[Roadtoad]

Incapable of answering a question directly, and further incapable of dealing with such things as FACTS, Billiefan continues to troll.

No surprise, once more.:jaw:

Kid, do the rest of us a favor: buy a dictionary, and look up the word "FACT."

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
and that is proof enough that people arent born gay.

But you were born stupid. But with a lot of hard work, perhaps one day you can become intelligent!

BTW, was Teal Redman born a prostitute or did she just become one?

[rwguinn]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


But you were born stupid. But with a lot of hard work, perhaps one day you can become intelligent!

BTW, was Teal Redman born a prostitute or did she just become one?
Whadda jerk.
1. Everyone is born ignorant
2. Ignorance is curable. Stupidity is not curable. It is also often fatal

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Earthborn
Hormones? What kind of hormones? Homo-hormones?

You're not one of those people who believes that homosexuality is caused by an acess of 'female' hormones, are you? If so, please provide evidence.

I don't have any evidence. That's why I said correct me if I'm wrong. It's not illogical to think that certain hormones or chemicals at a certain time in a fetuses development might "wire" the brain a certain way (or maybe it is, I'm just a desk jockey, not a doctor).

A quick google search shows studies that say this idea is a theory thats been around for awhile, which is why I've heard of it I guess, and that it's not proven either way. Looks like genetics plays a part also. Can't play the only part though, there have been studies of identical twins where one is gay and one is straight.

Whatever it is, you're born with it. So god must want it so.;)

[Max560]

Gay or straight billefan, Cthulhu will devour you.

[calladus]

Originally posted by rwguinn
After all, Homosexuals don't breed, so the gene should be pretty much gone by now, one might think...:confused:
RW

Who says that homosexuals don't breed? This is an incorrect assumption.

BTW - homosexual behavior is frequently found in nature - comments?

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Max560
Gay or straight billefan, Cthulhu will devour you.

Yes, Cthulhu doesn't want you to feel gay, only soul-crushing despair. And he's non-euclidian, not straight.

[jimerson]

Originally posted by Earthborn

You're not one of those people who believes that homosexuality is caused by an acess of 'female' hormones, are you? If so, please provide evidence.

Here's someplace to start:

http://www.medhelp.org/www/ais/21_OVERVIEW.HTM
http://www.medhelp.org/www/ais/24_RELATED.HTM

Mind you, I am not claiming this is evidence, I lack the education to comment on this. But I did see 2 or 3 programs on Discovery Channel/TLC that said the same thing (yea, I know those channels show some far-fetched stuff sometimes).

Just throwing it out there for debunking :)

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by hgc

Here's the real sin: When this guy can't take the tension anymore, and reverts to practicing his natural inclinations, he'll leave the wreckage of his family in his wake.

This is so true. I predict a "scandal" in this poor suckers future.

[Upchurch]

Okay, this post of mine (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870012222#post1870012222) really belongs in this thread, but I didn't figure that out until after I finished posting it. It outlines my stance on the relationship between natural tendancies and personal choice in the context of something less contraversial than homosexuality.

[daenku32]

Originally posted by billiefan2000
http://cbn.org/CBNNews/News/030721a.asp

So? What difference does it make? I wasn't born to climb a mountain, but I'll be damned if the goverment bans it!

[Quasi]

Regarding hormones and genetics- hormones are either proteins, peptides or small molecules which are controlled by genes. Further, hormone levels vary over the day, or month, and change with age. I never heard a gay person claim they were straight in the morning, once a month, or when they were young, but not when they were old. Are we just talking about male homosexuality? I believe female sexuality is quite different than male- many women are capable of being bisexual. Further, I believe more males have sexual identity crisis compared to females. This polydispersity may be a reflection of the relationship between sex development and the interaction of the XY chromosomes. In females, the extra X (XX) balls itself up into a "basal body" and is inactive. You can actually see this on a microscope. So many questions!

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by rwguinn
Just as an exercise- I really don't care about your sexual orientation, as long as you don't keep bugging me about it. I'm straight, but have worked with and socialized with folks from both sides of the fence with aboslutely no problems, but I have always wondered:
If homosexuality is a genetic predisposition, why does it still exist? and seem to be becoming more predominant? I know- its more acceptable today, so we hear more about it-but wouldn't you think it would have been bred out by now? After all, Homosexuals don't breed, so the gene should be pretty much gone by now, one might think...:confused:

RW

Yes, you are confused.

If you will be so kind as to read the post I wrote before your post, then you see that homosexuals do breed.

[rwguinn]

Originally posted by Crossbow


Yes, you are confused.

If you will be so kind as to read the post I wrote before your post, then you see that homosexuals do breed.

and your point?
Sounds to me like the guy "discovered" he was homosexual late in life.
The thread was not about bisexuals- as I read it, a true homosexual would no more have heterosexual sex than a true straight would have homosexual sex...
as I said earlier-I don't really care either way. whatever you do should be between you and your consenting, adult, partner.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by rwguinn


and your point?
Sounds to me like the guy "discovered" he was homosexual late in life.
The thread was not about bisexuals- as I read it, a true homosexual would no more have heterosexual sex than a true straight would have homosexual sex...
as I said earlier-I don't really care either way. whatever you do should be between you and your consenting, adult, partner.

My point was to make you aware that homosexuals do breed.

As for the person in question, when he left his wife he said that he always knew he was a homosexual, but he thought that getting married, becoming a minister, and having kids would straighten him out. Of course, it did not.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Crossbow

My point was to make you aware that homosexuals do breed.
Yes, but they don't breed true. :cool:

[jimerson]

Originally posted by Quasi
Regarding hormones and genetics- hormones are either proteins, peptides or small molecules which are controlled by genes. Further, hormone levels vary over the day, or month, and change with age. I never heard a gay person claim they were straight in the morning, once a month, or when they were young, but not when they were old.

A few more links, I think these are better than the ones I posted earlier.

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency.html

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/pediatricendocrinology/intersex/index.html

[Dragonrock]

My psychology and human sexuality instructor compared homosexuality to fetishes. He said that there are many people, especially men, who cannot function sexually without the item of their fetish present.

A few examples of fetishes that he gave were:
The person or partner must wear nylons
The person must hear a vacuum cleaner running
The person is only excited by people with casts.

Most of these fetishes can be traced back events that occured just as the person was entering puberty.

The man with the nylons used to steal his mother's dirty underwear, but found it was easier to get away with taking her old nylons.

Vacuum cleaner guy used to masterbate when he heard his mother vacuuming the carpet because then he knew she wouldn't walk in on him.

The cast man broke his femur when he was about 12 and while the attractive female nurse cut the cast off, she rubbed lotion on his thigh and lower leg.

All of these were cases of people attaching sexual feelings to something non-sexual as a pavlovian response. It is possible that homosexuals learned to attach sexual feelings to members of the same sex in a similar way.

In the end, until we build a machine that can read someone's mind, all of this is just conjecture based on observation of people's behavior.

[Dancing David]

Hmm, and I thought that fetishes operated through operant conditioning continuing.

Seriously I don't think that homosexuality is just a fetish, if it was then the sucsess rate for 'treratment' would be better.

I think it has to do with chemicals and imprinting. There is also this statistic which says more homosexuals are born to older mothers.

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by Dragonrock
My psychology and human sexuality instructor compared homosexuality to fetishes. He said that there are many people, especially men, who cannot function sexually without the item of their fetish present.



Did you correct your instructor that while that may be the case with some gays that is illogical and silly to say “all” and by his comparing homosexuality to fetishes he has painted with a very large broad brush.

I would have to say the % of males who are gay who need fetishes to function sexually and the % of straight men would be the same as to a % number.

His own wording proves his theory illogical by saying “especially men” if it is homosexuality that is a fetish than all who are gay would have this “fetishes” and need it to function sexually, this would mean all mean and all lesbians.

I would have to believe all who have a desire to lick feet have a fetish.

The idea that all homosexuals are this or that is silly and also silly is that homosexuality is just about sex it is as silly as all heterosexuality is about just sex.

There is a whole spectrum found in life, gay, bi straight. There is no one box to put anyone in, well unless that is their fetish and they need it to function sexually :D

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by Pahansiri


Did you correct your instructor that while that may be the case with some gays that is illogical and silly to say “all” and by his comparing homosexuality to fetishes he has painted with a very large broad brush.

I would have to say the % of males who are gay who need fetishes to function sexually and the % of straight men would be the same as to a % number.

His own wording proves his theory illogical by saying “especially men” if it is homosexuality that is a fetish than all who are gay would have this “fetishes” and need it to function sexually, this would mean all mean and all lesbians.

I would have to believe all who have a desire to lick feet have a fetish.

The idea that all homosexuals are this or that is silly and also silly is that homosexuality is just about sex it is as silly as all heterosexuality is about just sex.

There is a whole spectrum found in life, gay, bi straight. There is no one box to put anyone in, well unless that is their fetish and they need it to function sexually :D

Neither he nor I said "all" at any point. His saying "especially men" refered to the numbers he stated that showed men had a much higher rate of fetishes than women. He espoused this as a theory, and one of many that he brought up in response to the question "what makes people gay?" He also pointed out that many people with fetishes cannot be "cured", they are simply unable to function without the object of their desire.

I believe that human sexuality is a complex issue because, as animals, our goal is to reproduce. However, as humans, we have stacked so many things on top of something that other animals do without thinking.

[Yahweh]

I believe that human sexuality is a complex issue because, as animals, our goal is to reproduce. However, as humans, we have stacked so many things on top of something that other animals do without thinking.
Humans have a hard time recognizing themselves as animals. Today, for people sex is rarely about reproduction. It is about pleasure and the most pure expression of love between 2 soulmates...

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Humans have a hard time recognizing themselves as animals. Today, for people sex is rarely about reproduction. It is about pleasure and the most pure expression of love between 2 soulmates...

True, but at its root, sex is about reproduction. The pleasure was something nature added to make sure that we do it as often as possible. Plus, who cares if humans have a tough time recognizing themselves as animals, we still are and some of our desires are basal in nature.

[csense]

Originally posted by jimerson


Here's someplace to start:

http://www.medhelp.org/www/ais/21_OVERVIEW.HTM
http://www.medhelp.org/www/ais/24_RELATED.HTM

Mind you, I am not claiming this is evidence, I lack the education to comment on this. But I did see 2 or 3 programs on Discovery Channel/TLC that said the same thing (yea, I know those channels show some far-fetched stuff sometimes).

Just throwing it out there for debunking :)


...Informative links, but they have nothing to do with either supporting or denying a genetic cause or correlation with homosexuality. In fact, those studies which do conclude a genetic correlation, have been replicated, and it was found that these conclusions are not tenable.

[Pahansiri]

Hello Dragonrock

My point was he did classify gays as different in that heterosexuality is the “natural” thing and homosexuality was a fetish or compared to a fetish.

You said he said My psychology and human sexuality instructor compared homosexuality to fetishes

Which would first indicate an “all” grouping. You said he qualified it later a bit by saying “many people, especially men”. My point is while it may be a fetish for some to have gay sex it would be no more then a “fetish” then I wanting a woman.


In many primates we see heterosexuality to some extent, I do not believe any apes make a conscious choice to do so really.


But to my 2nd point to men or 2 woman who have great love commitment to each other lives most of their lives together have nothing to do with any fetish keeping them there, none more then a hetro couple.

This also stands in the face of his theory as heterosexuality is a fetish. What is true is people will “enjoy” or treat or engage in heterosexuality activity as a fetish just as they would licking a womanize feet. So if a man loves to lick the feet of woman do we then say My psychology and human sexuality instructor compared heterosexuality to fetishes ?

[jimerson]

Originally posted by csense

...Informative links, but they have nothing to do with either supporting or denying a genetic cause or correlation with homosexuality. In fact, those studies which do conclude a genetic correlation, have been replicated, and it was found that these conclusions are not tenable.

Do you have a link handy? Or any reference so I can look it up?

Thanks.

[Roadtoad]

Yahweh had a solid point: For humans, sex is less about reproduction, and more about pleasure. Something about the complexity of the mind, in part, I suppose. (Not that I have sufficient grasp of this, mind you, but I'm trying my best with the links available...)

Let's assume, however, that no one is born gay. What should our response be, then? At any point in time/history, has ANYONE been converted by abuse, belittlement, or violence? Has anyone ever changed because social mores obligated one? In both cases, the answer is "No."

If no one is born gay, then you have an obligation to look for causalities. (Sorry, I hate to be the one to break this to you, Billiefan, but Jack Chick has it wrong.) Of all the gay men and lesbian women I've known, not one person has ever been able to tell me "This is what made me gay." No one. They simply knew they were. Since I couldn't figure it out, and neither could they, we simply figured it really wasn't all that important, and continued our friendship in that vein.

Most of them tried to live straight, but gave it up. They could not do it. I couldn't understand why this was if someone couldn't be "born gay," since from what I've read, if you place someone who's dealing with abnormality into a more normalized situation, they tend to acclimate, and fit better into the mainstream. (No, that doesn't always work, but it does bear SOME mention.) The only thing that I could figure out from what I saw was that people were, indeed, born gay, and frankly, trying to "convert" them was ultimately futile.

Yes, there probably are people who are subjected to certain psychological stresses who choose a gay lifestyle. (I hope this doesn't sound as stupid as I think it does.) But I would tend to think that these people would be in the minority.

Just a few thoughts from your resident straight trucker...

[Pahansiri]

http://www.melwhite.org/

For thirty-five years, The Rev. Dr. Mel White struggled to "overcome" his homosexual orientation through prayer, fasting, various aversive therapies, exorcism, and even electric shock. A victim of misinformation and biblical misuse, Mel thought his same-sex orientation was a sickness and a sin. During those "closet years" Mel served the Christian church as a prize-winning television producer and filmmaker, a best-selling author, a pastor, seminary professor, and ghost writer to religious leaders including Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell.

After a time of terrible depression, Mel finally reconciled his Christian faith and his sexual orientation. In his autobiography, Stranger at the Gate: To Be Gay And Christian In America, Mel announced, "I'm gay. I'm proud. And God loves me without reservation."
http://www.melwhite.org/graphics/melgary.jpg

[Roadtoad]

Thank you, Pahansiri. You've made point eloquently. As is usual.

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
Thank you, Pahansiri. You've made point eloquently. As is usual.

Thank you you are TOO kind.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer


It's not illogical to think that certain hormones or chemicals at a certain time in a fetuses development might "wire" the brain a certain way (or maybe it is, I'm just a desk jockey, not a doctor).

A quick google search shows studies that say this idea is a theory thats been around for awhile, which is why I've heard of it I guess, and that it's not proven either way. Looks like genetics plays a part also. Can't play the only part though, there have been studies of identical twins where one is gay and one is straight.

Environment, stress would likely be a significant factor, diet maybe, adjusting the genetic imprint of basic- biochem could enter into the equation.

Maybe 40 years ago, a study with lab rats purported to link over-crowded living conditions with increased incidence of homosexual behavior.

[csense]

Originally posted by jimerson


Do you have a link handy? Or any reference so I can look it up?

Thanks.

Simon LeVay and Dean Hamer, among others

Simon LeVay proposed a correlation when he observed significant differences in the hypothalamus between homo / heterosexual men. From the data however it is impossible to determine whether these differences indicate a cause or an effect of homosexuality.

Dean Hamer proposed a maternal genetic influence in a study for the NIH. The study was replicated by Dr. Alan Sanders, also of the NIH, and Dr. George Rice of the University of Western Ontario. Neither validated Hamer's conclusions.

There are also twin studies.

Here's a link to some more information:
http://www.fathersforlife.org/dale/genetic.html

[jimerson]

Originally posted by csense

Here's a link to some more information:
http://www.fathersforlife.org/dale/genetic.html

Thank you. Wow that sure is a lot of reading for me to do, with all the other pages on that website! I don't think I will be back real soon. :)

RoadToad, do you mind if I use part of your post and make a few changes here & there?.... thanks...

"Let's assume, however, that no one is born "hetero". What should our response be, then? At any point in time/history, has ANYONE been converted by abuse, belittlement, or violence? Has anyone ever changed because social mores obligated one? In both cases, the answer is "No."

If no one is born hetero, then you have an obligation to look for causalities. (Sorry, I hate to be the one to break this to you, Billiefan, but Jack Chick has it wrong.) Of all the hetero men and women I've known, not one person has ever been able to tell me "This is what made me hetero." No one. They simply knew they were. Since I couldn't figure it out, and neither could they, we simply figured it really wasn't all that important, and continued our friendship in that vein.

Most of them tried to live gay, but gave it up. They could not do it. I couldn't understand why this was if someone couldn't be "born hetero," since from what I've read, if you place someone who's dealing with abnormality into a more normalized situation, they tend to acclimate, and fit better into the mainstream. (No, that doesn't always work, but it does bear SOME mention.) The only thing that I could figure out from what I saw was that people were, indeed, born hetero, and frankly, trying to "convert" them was ultimately futile. "

[aerosolben]

Originally posted by rwguinn
Homosexuals don't breed, so the gene should be pretty much gone by now, one might think...:confused:
RW

Think Down('s?) Syndrome.

Down Syndrome is definitively a genetic disorder, and prevents those with it from breeding far more effectively than homosexuality. Yet it's still relatively common.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by jimerson


Thank you. Wow that sure is a lot of reading for me to do, with all the other pages on that website! I don't think I will be back real soon. :)

RoadToad, do you mind if I use part of your post and make a few changes here & there?.... thanks...

Slick by me. And yes, I got the point. :wink8:

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by hammegk
Environment, stress would likely be a significant factor, diet maybe, adjusting the genetic imprint of basic- biochem could enter into the equation.

Maybe 40 years ago, a study with lab rats purported to link over-crowded living conditions with increased incidence of homosexual behavior.
hammy,

How about a simple genetic mutation?

Cheers,

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by BillHoyt

hammy,

How about a simple genetic mutation?

Cheers,
I've actually heard people say a genetic mutation accounts for people being gay. They try to back up that statement by claiming it also affects the speech (gives them a lisp). Edited to add: I'm not sure how much of that is "fact".

I dont know how much of it is dependent on genetics. Hypothetically, if 1000 homosexuals donate sperm which is used to artificially insiminate 1000 women, what is the percentage of babies born that will eventually become gay?

To me, it seems like homosexuality isnt really that rooted in environment because children are taught that boys kiss girls and girls kiss boys.

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by Yahweh
I've actually heard people say a genetic mutation accounts for people being gay. They try to back up that statement by claiming it also affects the speech (gives them a lisp)...
Hi, Yahweh,

I'm not directly addressing that point. I am directly rebutting hammy's dismissive attitude and apparent or feigned ignorance of the facts of biochemicals'and hormones' influence on behavior.

Cheers,

[hammegk]

Originally posted by BillHoyt



I'm not directly addressing that point. I am directly rebutting hammy's dismissive attitude and apparent or feigned ignorance of the facts of biochemicals'and hormones' influence on behavior.


Er, that would be a great rebuttal, had I put that position on the table. I did not. Read it again. Try for understanding this time.

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by hammegk


Er, that would be a great rebuttal, had I put that position on the table. I did not. Read it again. Try for understanding this time.

You dismissed the idea of hormones or biochemicals being directly responsible for homosexual behavior. Are you now saying that a simple genetic mutation can cause homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom?

Cheers,

[hammegk]

Originally posted by BillHoyt


You dismissed the idea of hormones or biochemicals being directly responsible for homosexual behavior.
Your reading comprehension has failed you. I did not.


Are you now saying that a simple genetic mutation can cause homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom?


I did not address that point. As I suspect both of us know, data provides the clear answer "maybe". IMO, very likely. Is all homosex genetic rather than learned behavior? I personally don't think so, but that is an opinion.

Perhaps your Nobel awaits on your scientifically justified answer to your question. Personally, I doubt it.

[Dancing David]

On the genetics and homosexuality there are some interesting things to think about.

We are most geneticaly similar to our siblings, we share more genes with our siblings than we do our parents. that is supposedly why in the animals kingdom there are instances of siblings helping to rear younger siblings, blue jays and crows being outstanding memebers of this thought.

So , if homosexuals are born later in the mothers breeding life then they don't compete with thier siblings for mates or resources for grandchildren, and they can have a genetic investment in progeny.

More importantly is that atrait which is non prodictive can be passed on anyhow.

Take schizophrenia, the traits can be passed with having the full blown sysndrome.

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by hammegk
I did not address that point. As I suspect both of us know, data provides the clear answer "maybe". IMO, very likely.
Is that all the data about genetic control of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom? Do you have any references for this?

Cheers,

[hammegk]

Originally posted by BillHoyt

Is that all the data about genetic control of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom? Do you have any references for this?


I might, or might not. Do you, oh sage of all of us?

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by hammegk


I might, or might not. Do you, oh sage of all of us?

Fruitless [fru]. Originally named "fruity" in the 60s by Gill.

Cheers,