CTers want a New Investigation...

[Yurebiz]

Eh, I wanted to make this poll a long time ago, but I forgot to do so before...

Most truthers today as you know are not just pushing their CTs, but also primarily in pushing a new investigation through congress and local representatives.

I'd like to ask you where you stand...

I'll refrain from saying my own opinion on the issue because anything I say is used against me as I noticed on previous threads. So I won't be spitting nonsense away for now, boo hoo.

As far as the cost of the hypothetical investigation.. um, I'd say.. just consider as if it would require a sum of about at least 20 million... Is it worth spending our tax money in it?

Dang I got a frigging :) smile on my D: smilie

[Babbylonian]

As far as the cost of the hypothetical investigation.. um, I'd say.. just consider as if it would require a sum of about at least 20 million... Is it worth spending our tax money in it?
On what would such a hypothetical investigation be based? Would it be based on reconciling, for example, a few witness statements that contradict the majority of the witness statements (such as the nonsense claimed to demonstrate that a plane never crashed at the Pentagon)? Would it be based on the theories advanced that buildings were destroyed by "controlled demolition" despite a total lack of physical evidence of such?

I'm pretty sure I answered the question above, but I'll state it outright: No, it is not worth spending our tax money to investigate the paranoid ravings of the few. It would be a further waste of money since those asking for such an investigation would never be satisifed by the conclusions reached if the government was involved in any way. Catch-22.

[PhantomWolf]

I'm neutral on the issue. I can't see the point in wasting the time and resources when it will reach the same conclusion as already shown and no CTer will believe the result anyway (anyone say JKF inquries?), but at the same time I'm not against them doing it if they wanted too, after all it isn't my money that would be being wasted.

[Totovader]

I have to vote no (although I appreciate the choice of neutral).

I just don't think a "new investigation" is required, nor do I think it would offer any more information.

It's sort of a complex question (fallacy)- because to want a new investigation means you think the previous one was incomplete or a cover-up, etc. Although it was the government doing what the government does- I don't think we would benefit from another one. Furthermore, it's just another tactic for the conspiracists to pigeonhole all "official story" supporters by shoehorning this question, and then gaining support from the fence sitters. "Why wouldn't you want a new investigation, are you scared?" They didn't accept the first one, they certainly won't accept a new one.

[jhunter1163]

I'd go a step further than Babbylonian and say that the CTers would never be satisfied with any investigation, by whomever, that did not conclude that the US government was complicit. They've become so blinded by Bushatred that they simply refuse to believe that he had nothing to do with it, despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary.

[A W Smith]

at 27:54 into this video Dylan Avery & Jason Bermas were asked. "what would it take to change your mind" They replied
"Theres Nothing" & "Theres no way around this"
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-4070898042073434589&hl=en

And where scooby rests on this
Never, it's conclusion tells you all you need to know about its content.

[Totovader]

at 27:54 into this video Dylan Avery & Jason Bermas were asked. "what would it take to change your mind" They replied
"Theres Nothing" & "Theres no way around this"
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-4070898042073434589&hl=en

Personally, I think that's the most damaging thing they've ever said- and I doubt they even understand why.

[Horatius]

The problem is you've specified that this is federally funded, which would be the kiss of death to the CTists. The only reason to conduct such a new investigation would be to finally shut them up, and as such, anything which acts against that goal is a bad idea.

If they want a new investigation, let them fund it, and then it doesn't matter what any of us say.

[CHF]

Before I answer your poll, Yurebiz, I have to ask you what I always ask twoofers when they babble on about their "new investigation."

Who should conduct this new investigation?

Is there anyone qualified who you would trust?

Who's conclusions wouldn't be tossed aside by twoofers if they didn't like what is said?

I'm yet to hear any names from those calling for a new investigation.

I mean NIST doesn't count, implosionworld doesn't count, the engineers at MIT don't count, Delft University engineering students don't count, Perdue doen't count.

Whose opinion counts?

[JimBenArm]

I voted no. There have been federally funded investigations already. The CT's don't like the results. Why do it again? So we can hear them say they don't like the new results, either? Yeah, I'm all in favor of that!

[gumboot]

I voted Planet X. I'm not an American, therefore it's a bit rich for me to comment on how Federal Money should be spent.

However this too is the sort of query that I find fails to provide enough information.

An investigation has already been done. There's some holes, and some of those holes might be worth investigating, however I see no reason to research the same well researched stuff all over again. And I certainly wouldn't approve of money being wasted research the various versions of the event that CTers propose.

I would also suggest, since some of the evidence from 9/11 nolonger exists, or is nolonger in Federal Possession, and since it's now 5 years after the event, any future investigations of the areas already covered previously will only provide LESS complete conclusions than the initial investigations.

-Gumboot

[Steve H]

I voted no. I'm still waiting for any CTer to rise above the minutiae they seem to dwell on and address the lack of a corollary in the geo-political dynamic from 9/11/01 onward.

[Pardalis]

Completely ridiculous question.

A fed-funded new investigation? I thought they did that already.

Do you seriously think the twoofers will accept another government investigation?

Get real. :rolleyes:

[LashL]

Yurebiz, the question is useless as stated, without more. You'll need to expand upon the details of the investigation being proposed in order for the question (or the results of your poll, for that matter) to have any meaning.

Perhaps you can put some thought into the scope, depth, composition and details of the investigation you are envisioning and then come back with something substantive once you've thought it through and can post a meaningful question and/or poll. That would be a good start.

[Unfit4Command]

I wouldn't mind seeing a new investigation just to see if any extra info can be dug up. Problem is, there's no way to make the conspiracy theorists happy. If a government organization does it, they're lying clearly because they work for the government! If the government pays another group of people to do it, they're lying because the government paid for it!

A group of random people would have to put the resources together to do a new investigation. Even then, if the official story still stands then the Truthers will dig up any info about every single person in the investigation team. If just one of them has a government or military background of some sort, then the whole investigation is a lie...

That reminds me...Korey Rowe was in the military, so maybe he's just a government plant to help distract the "Truth Movement" from the REAL conspiracy.

[PerryLogan]

If the new investigation were valid, it would of course find that neither LIHOP nor MIHOP is true. The CTs would then reject the investigation as a cover-up, and nothing would be accomplished.

The U.S.A. has some heavy debts to handle, bridges to mend, and a shipload of real investigations to conduct, thank you very much.

[Oliver]

I voted "Yes". I'm always for wasting us-money for
more reasonable purposes than war and weaponry.

[Yurebiz]

I have to vote no (although I appreciate the choice of neutral).

I just don't think a "new investigation" is required, nor do I think it would offer any more information.

It's sort of a complex question (fallacy)- because to want a new investigation means you think the previous one was incomplete or a cover-up, etc. Although it was the government doing what the government does- I don't think we would benefit from another one. Furthermore, it's just another tactic for the conspiracists to pigeonhole all "official story" supporters by shoehorning this question, and then gaining support from the fence sitters. "Why wouldn't you want a new investigation, are you scared?" They didn't accept the first one, they certainly won't accept a new one.Yes yes yes quite my underlying point indeed... But I also mainly just wanted a follow up from the first poll which Oliver made quite a while back ago, the only other poll I found on this board (maybe I missed another one?) concerning the a new investigation! I've come across this board since around when that thread was made.. so maybe there was another one made before but I dunno
Well, point is, I wanted to see how this board's opinion might have changed over time! And getting some new inputs.

Before I answer your poll, Yurebiz, I have to ask you what I always ask twoofers when they babble on about their "new investigation."

Who should conduct this new investigation?

Is there anyone qualified who you would trust?

Who's conclusions wouldn't be tossed aside by twoofers if they didn't like what is said?

I'm yet to hear any names from those calling for a new investigation.

I mean NIST doesn't count, implosionworld doesn't count, the engineers at MIT don't count, Delft University engineering students don't count, Perdue doen't count.

Whose opinion counts?
I'm more concerned with the 9/11 Commission Report, but yeah, nothing counts for CTers. Anything that comes out from the gov't that doesn't confirm our suspicions, we label it as disinfo, evidence fabrication, cointelpro, payed testimonies, pressured testimonies, silenced whistle-blowers, etc. There's yet to be someone who has any evidence of government involvement. Few doubt the commission report, etc. I know that, and I agree.
I'm just asking questions.. ehm.. and making polls.

Yurebiz, the question is useless as stated, without more. You'll need to expand upon the details of the investigation being proposed in order for the question (or the results of your poll, for that matter) to have any meaning.

Perhaps you can put some thought into the scope, depth, composition and details of the investigation you are envisioning and then come back with something substantive once you've thought it through and can post a meaningful question and/or poll. That would be a good start.I'm just asking your opinion for a general... um.. I dunno, new investigation approved by congress... whatever that is. Ah, just kidding.
I don't need to supply all that, I have no idea where to start with... it's unfair for you to be asking questions back at my questions! Hey, I'm the CTer!

Anyway, this thread didn't need no explanation and it got way more votes than mine... I'm sad now :(

Yes http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/polls/bar2.gifhttp://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/polls/bar2-r.gif 29 39.19% No http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/polls/bar3.gifhttp://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/polls/bar3-r.gif 27 36.49% Planet X http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/polls/bar4.gifhttp://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/polls/bar4-r.gif 18 24.32%

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=67714

[R.Mackey]

I'm just asking your opinion for a general... um.. I dunno, new investigation approved by congress... whatever that is. Ah, just kidding.
I don't need to supply all that, I have no idea where to start with... it's unfair for you to be asking questions back at my questions! Hey, I'm the CTer!

Anyway, this thread didn't need no explanation and it got way more votes than mine... I'm sad now :(

While I've given you a hard time in other threads, I think you've asked a fair question. Also high marks for the Planet X option. You've learned JREF etiquette, a positive step.

Like others have remarked, the Troothers probably won't accept a "fed funded" investigation, but that's their problem. You asked the question, not them, and you apparently will. That's another positive step.

Anyway, I voted "neutral." I am not opposed to a new investigation, but before we do that I'd like to understand what's wrong with the current investigation. There's no point starting over from scratch. But if mistakes were made before, then perhaps they'd be worth fixing.

This is why I ask all the Troothers to show me the errors. I haven't gotten too many.

Also, while I think the scientific side of Sept. 11th is pretty much beaten to death, and I also don't think there are any new culprits to be found, I do think there remains a lot of improvement to be made in several Government agencies -- the FAA, NTSA, FEMA, FBI, CIA, and DoD in particular. I don't believe any of these agencies were to blame for Sept. 11th in any way, but I do think they have problems, organizational and policy-wise, that were illuminated by the tragedy.

I also don't think a new Investigation will be sufficient to force the Government to fix these agencies (just look at how W bunted on the "National Intelligence Director" recommendation), but it would be a start.

This would be politics, not conspiracy-oriented. Follow-ups to Politics forum.

[PhantomWolf]

Anyway, this thread didn't need no explanation and it got way more votes than mine... I'm sad now

You've only given it two and a half hours

[Pardalis]

You've only given it two and a half hours

Blame it on TV and video games, these youngsters haven't learned that patience is a virtue.

[beachnut]

I voted "Yes". I'm always for wasting us-money for
more reasonable purposes than war and weaponry.Okay, I am voting for Germany to send me some beer samples, just a keg or two; need the address? The Czech Republic beer was good and they always brought a keg to the cook out for all the Americans, British, Greek, French, Germans, and we all had a great time! Now when you find yourself holding your handle bars looking up at the buildings and you have trouble getting your tires back on the street, you have had your correct portion of Czech beer!

Do not play soccer with German, British, or any European people! (no you are not suppose to tackle in soccer)

So I vote for Germany to send us some beer, if we have to do a new investigation!

[Mobyseven]

I currently sit on neutral. While I do not believe that a new investigation would serve any purpose, if by some chance an overwhelming majority of Americans decided that they were worried enough about governmental involvement in 9/11 that they would want their tax dollars spent thusly, that is the prerogative of the American people.

Myself, I'm not from round those parts so it really isn't my place to comment I suppose...

[sleahead]

No, no new investigation. The Troofers know a crime has been committed - they have the evidence, they have the proof. What they need to do now is launch a prosecution against the gulity parties. The "Scholars" have lawyers on the team, who I'm sure will do the work pro bono for the Troof. If not, Troof dollars can be diverted from DVDs, books, T-shirts and hoodies to fund the prosecution.

It's a frightening thought that a new investigation could possibly arise as a result people believing the woo posted by loons on the internet.

[Gravy]

Anyway, this thread didn't need no explanation and it got way more votes than mine... I'm sad now :(

Yes 29 39.19% No 27 36.49% Planet X 18 24.32%

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=67714
Yurebiz, note the difference in phrasing between Oliver's poll question and yours. He didn't stipulate federal funding. I said "yes" to Oliver's. Hell, Jimmy Walter supposedly spent over $5 million on advertising for a new investigation. I'm all in favor of Jimmy and the truthers actually funding research, but that will never happen.

Even without subpoena power, $5 million could go a long way: how about an independent finite element analysis of the towers? The insurance companies funded one. Yet when the independent analysts concluded that the design and construction of the towers was not defective, and that they collapsed from the damage and fires, did the insurance executives scream "Fraud!" No. And these are people with hundreds of millions of dollars at stake.

The conspiracists claim that much more than money is at stake. They believe that the fate of the United States, baseball, apple pie, and Chevrolet rests on this new investigation. Yet they are unwilling or unable to even propose who would conduct such an investigation and how it would be run, much less to fund any serious research.

Here's an example. Several times I've seen conspiracists, including Dylan Avery, complain that the NIST controls thousands of photos and video clips of 9/11, and that – horrors! – NIST wants over $13,000 for the whole set! The same conspiracists claim to have a base of millions and millions of believers. Yet they can't raise 13 grand? This forum raised 9 grand from a pool of 2,600 active members in a month. No, they won't do it because then they'd lose another thing to whine about.

The 9/11 "truth" movement is nothing more than a conspiracy theory workshop, in which "Moving the goalposts without straining your back" is the first seminar. Its has nothing to do with the truth and everything to do with perpetuating conspiracy nonsense, and it is led by proven liars, kooks, and intellectual cowards.

As has been said repeatedly, what's the point of investigating when only one conclusion will be accepted?

[Yurebiz]

Thx Mackey. I think the reason why not many talk about explicitly about a fed investigation is because they just want whatever new investigation from anywhere. I say fed funded, because I believe it's still congress' job to tell us what exactly happened on a few aspects of 9/11, like intelligence failures to say the least. And I believe only a thorough, congress approved investigation, will put the matter to rest once and for all.

Yurebiz, note the difference in phrasing between Oliver's poll question and yours. He didn't stipulate federal funding. I said "yes" to Oliver's. Hell, Jimmy Walter supposedly spent over $5 million on advertising for a new investigation. I'm all in favor of Jimmy and the truthers actually funding research, but that will never happen.

Even without subpoena power, $5 million could go a long way: how about an independent finite element analysis of the towers? The insurance companies funded one. Yet when the independent analysts concluded that the design and construction of the towers was not defective, and that they collapsed from the damage and fires, did the insurance executives scream "Fraud!" No. And these are people with hundreds of millions of dollars at stake.

The conspiracists claim that much more than money is at stake. They believe that the fate of the United States, baseball, apple pie, and Chevrolet rests on this new investigation. Yet they are unwilling or unable to even propose who would conduct such an investigation and how it would be run, much less to fund any serious research.

Here's an example. Several times I've seen conspiracists, including Dylan Avery, complain that the NIST controls thousands of photos and video clips of 9/11, and that – horrors! – NIST wants over $13,000 for the whole set! The same conspiracists claim to have a base of millions and millions of believers. Yet they can't raise 13 grand? This forum raised 9 grand from a pool of 2,600 active members in a month. No, they won't do it because then they'd lose another thing to whine about.

The 9/11 "truth" movement is nothing more than a conspiracy theory workshop, in which "Moving the goalposts without straining your back" is the first seminar. Its has nothing to do with the truth and everything to do with perpetuating conspiracy nonsense, and it is led by proven liars, kooks, and intellectual cowards.

As has been said repeatedly, what's the point of investigating when only one conclusion will be accepted?
Ah true, I didn't notice he didn't say fed funded. It does leave it more open for approval since you ain't paying for it I guess. We can say that it's the first time anyone ever made a fed-investigative poll here? woot. Thats amazing, CTers come and go around here but none has ever stopped and thought about a couple things never discussed like this...

But anyway. Your point is, CTers want a new investigation cuz we specifically are never satisfied by the governmental reports. Well all I can say that, that is not true, many people besides CTers were left unsatisfied with the 9/11 Commission report and I'm sure you know that...

You can go on and on to why are CTers so disgusting and a bunch of hypocrites, but that's not what's ever been at stake...
What's at stake is the 9/11 Commission Report!
You think it's done a good job explaining 9/11? Well that's great for you.
We, delusional CTers, and some other skeptoids as you may say, believe there was a great whitewash regarding, to say the least again.., intelligence failures, the NORAD explanations, the foreign warnings, and many other issues as you know... And we don't want the 9/11 Commission Report to be the report which will be written in our kids' history books! We want them to know what really happened!

Did that last sentence sound well? That was a nice 'appeal to emotion', wasn't it? Aw,at least I thought it was good. :(

[The Silver Shadow]

My signature has Dylan saying something. I wonder what it could be...

If Dylan wanted a new investigation, he could fund it himself, according to what he said.

PS: I voted neutral, but I'm more towards "No"

[HeyLeroy]

I voted no. If, as the fantasists claim, they have ~80% of Americans on their side, let 'em pass the hat and everyone kicks in a buck. That's ~US$240,000,000; more that enough to pay for a lotta sciencey stuff.

[beachnut]

... like intelligence failures to say the least.

You can go on and on to why are CTers so disgusting and a bunch of hypocrites, but that's not what's ever been at stake...

Did that last sentence sound well? That was a nice 'appeal to emotion', wasn't it? Aw,at least I thought it was good. :(
If anything should be investigated it should be why there are so many real dumb people who believe the 9/11 truth movement and why they can not see the lies. Why are 9/11 CTers so dumb?

As for an investigation. There have been so many, and they are still working on 9/11 topics all over the world to make buildings safer. Why are CTers so challenged to find that there were investigations. They have yet to present facts on any CT ideas on 9/11. 5 years no facts. Lost lemmings looking for some more dumb ideas, make up the vast majority of the research challenged followers of the "truth" movement. What an ironic name!