Chemtrails

[peteweaver]

What on earth are CT's on when they go on about chemtrails ?

Plane flies high, up high its cold, engine produces vapour, vapour condenses in the cold air leaving a trail. Nuff said?

[PhantomWolf]

You'd think (http://www.rense.com/general4/fre.htm)

Note: this is only posted because you asked, any brain damage from the above link is not the provider's responsiblity. Click at own risk.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

What on earth are CT's on when they go on about chemtrails ?

Plane flies high, up high its cold, engine produces vapour, vapour condenses in the cold air leaving a trail. Nuff said?

How simple!

I think there is more to it than simply trails. From what I've read and seen in a couple documentaries. But I'm no Chemtrail-blazer.

Are any of you from Portland? I guess that's a "hotbed."

[PhantomWolf]

I live amost directly under the main airlane from Auckland to Wellington/Christchurch. I get the aircraft of our two major airlines flying over about once every two hours or so. Because of the plane colours you can tell from the ground which is which (one has a bright red tail, the other a bright blue tail.) Contrails last over time due to the weather conditions. In fact I can usually tell you when a contrail will last a long time and when it won't, just by looking at the sky.

[Babbylonian]

How simple!

I think there is more to it than simply trails. From what I've read and seen in a couple documentaries. But I'm no Chemtrail-blazer.

Are any of you from Portland? I guess that's a "hotbed."
I am, and I can state unequivocally that chemtrails exist and they are killing us off by the 1's! I mean, geez, it can't have anything to do with, for example, having a fairly busy airport and a squadron of F-15s in town doing frequent training flights. Nor could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that we have clouds, low and high, virtually year 'round, with our rainy season being interrupted by 3 months of summer.

I've even trained my nephews to watch for "chemtrails" on nice days. I point out to the little buggers that when they see an evil NWO chemtrail, if they follow it to the end they might see an NWO jet airplane at the front of it. The mind control chemicals are a small price to pay to see cool planes!

[WildCat]

How simple!

I think there is more to it than simply trails. From what I've read and seen in a couple documentaries. But I'm no Chemtrail-blazer.

Are any of you from Portland? I guess that's a "hotbed."
Is there any CT stupid enough for you not to buy into it?

[PhantomWolf]

Is there any CT stupid enough for you not to buy into it?

Most of the CT's I know buy into all of them Pearl Habour, JFK, Apollo, 9/11, Chemtrails, Roswell and UFOs=ETVs....

[Horatius]

How long has this spraying been occurring? Cloud books confirm that tests have been conducted since the 1960s. Old photographs show sporadic CTs dating to the early 1970s with the activity steadily increasing throughout the 1980s.


Gee, that follows the pattern of increasing jet air travel almost exactly. But I'm sure that's just a coincidence!

[hellaeon]

How simple!

I think there is more to it than simply trails. From what I've read and seen in a couple documentaries. But I'm no Chemtrail-blazer.

Are any of you from Portland? I guess that's a "hotbed."Goodaye Mate, what documentaries?

I would like to know so I can seek them out and look myself. Personally Im quite certain that 'chemtrails' are just another CT 'imagine that! oooo...' scenario, void of facts, full of woo.

[JimBenArm]

Chemtrails was probably one of the first lunatic ideas I came across on the intertubes! Of course, this fits all their paranoid ideas, so they latch onto it just as easily and as strongly as the 9/11 fantasies.
Ebil Gubmint spraying mysterious chemicals. Reasons? Well, we don't really have one, but darn it, it just seems right!

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Is there any CT stupid enough for you not to buy into it?

I believe I said I am NOT a Chemtrail-blazer.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Most of the CT's I know buy into all of them Pearl Habour, JFK, Apollo, 9/11, Chemtrails, Roswell and UFOs=ETVs....

Most that I know do not.

[Babbylonian]

Chemtrails was probably one of the first lunatic ideas I came across on the intertubes! Of course, this fits all their paranoid ideas, so they latch onto it just as easily and as strongly as the 9/11 fantasies.
Ebil Gubmint spraying mysterious chemicals. Reasons? Well, we don't really have one, but darn it, it just seems right!
The particular genius of the chemtrail nutbars is that people - at least people in places with jet aircraft flying overhead - can look up and see them almost any ["mostly sunny" or better] day. They get to see the entirety of the available evidence anytime they want. Even better, since the presence of a plane at the front of the chemtrail is a must, seeing the plane just means you're seeing the chemtrail as it's being produced, not that it's actually a contrail...though it could be...you never know...

The funniest part, to my mind at least, is that apparently this vastly powerful conspiracy (it has to be vastly powerful since it's flying jets all over the place - an expensive proposition, especially these days) apparently couldn't figure out how to distribute these chemicals without the telltale "chemtrail."

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Goodaye Mate, what documentaries?

I would like to know so I can seek them out and look myself. Personally Im quite certain that 'chemtrails' are just another CT 'imagine that! oooo...' scenario, void of facts, full of woo.

I can't remember where I saw it. I know I didn't buy it, so it must have been on the web somewhere. I think I saw two different documentaries. Because a friend from Portland was telling me about it.

Anyway, I'm sure the documentaries are out there, at the usual places. I recall they were VERY boring. Not sure if I even finished them.

There was some half-way interesting stuff. Instead of you who know nothing about the CT involved posturing and wasting your time writing clever slams on anybody who could believe such crap, why not at least find out what crap it is that you're slamming? (Not referring to you, Hallaeon).

And again, no I do not buy into the chemtrail thing. (Not yet!)

[~enigma~]

I wonder why the average Cter is too stupid to understand that the poison chentrails the government is spraying us with are also poisoning themselves...I guess CTs don't have to be logical :)

[Babbylonian]

I wonder why the average Cter is too stupid to understand that the poison chentrails the government is spraying us with are also poisoning themselves...I guess CTs don't have to be logical :)
If you were really in the NWO you'd know that you should have gotten your anti-chemtrail vaccination as soon as you were born. This should also have left you with a scar that, when viewed under a microscope, looks like three 6's.

[fuelair]

Most of the CT's I know buy into all of them Pearl Habour, JFK, Apollo, 9/11, Chemtrails, Roswell and UFOs=ETVs....

So much easier to be ignorant and follow the ignorant than to actually learn real science and history.:D

[skepticalcriticalguy]

If you were really in the NWO you'd know that you should have gotten your anti-chemtrail vaccination as soon as you were born.

The government started taking the vaccine the day they started spraying.

I think it's made by Bioport, which is owned by Carlyle Group.

(Just kidding).

[skepticalcriticalguy]

So much easier to be ignorant and follow the ignorant than to actually learn real science and history.:D

What is "real history?" The stuff in the history text books? Can it change with further research and analysis? New facts being discovered?

And isn't "history" open to interpretation?

[skepticalcriticalguy]

What on earth are CT's on when they go on about chemtrails ?



Oh, the answer to your question is mushrooms.

Try it some time!

:D

[~enigma~]

If you were really in the NWO you'd know that you should have gotten your anti-chemtrail vaccination as soon as you were born. This should also have left you with a scar that, when viewed under a microscope, looks like three 6's.
I'm just a dumb liaison and my vaccination scar looks like three 9s :)

[JimBenArm]

I'm just a dumb liaison and my vaccination scar looks like three 9s :)
Dude, quit standing on your head! :D

[Babbylonian]

I can't remember where I saw it. I know I didn't buy it, so it must have been on the web somewhere. I think I saw two different documentaries. Because a friend from Portland was telling me about it.

Anyway, I'm sure the documentaries are out there, at the usual places. I recall they were VERY boring. Not sure if I even finished them.

There was some half-way interesting stuff. Instead of you who know nothing about the CT involved posturing and wasting your time writing clever slams on anybody who could believe such crap, why not at least find out what crap it is that you're slamming? (Not referring to you, Hallaeon).

And again, no I do not buy into the chemtrail thing. (Not yet!)
Did you read PW's link? A long FAQ about chemtrails with not one verifiable fact supporting the hypothesis that they're anything out of the ordinary. It proposes numerous "theories" about what they are, dismisses some of them and offers no confirmation of any of them.

The bottom line for me goes a little something like this: Even if airplanes were leaving these "chemtrails" behind because of some unknown, powerful conspiracy, there's no scientific basis supporting the idea that chemicals "sprayed" so high up in the air could do anything significant to affect human biology once they reach the ground. Given the effects of wind alone, and assuming the chemicals make it all the way to the ground, the stuff would end up in homeopathic-type concentrations. Further, unless these chemicals are magically undetectable and their effects ridiculously long-term, scientists on the ground would be able to find them. Certainly, they must be very unusual - and thus conspicuous - chemicals to call for such a bizarre distribution method.

Besides, if such a conspiracy wanted to deliver a chemical to the population, there are much cheaper and "more" (meaning effective at all) effective ways to do so on the ground and still remain secret: Deliver it via drinking water, create pest infestations (e.g., gypsy moths) and deliver the chemical by trucks supposedly spraying to eliminate said infestations...I'm sure folks around here could come up with even more methods that would be both effective and clandestine - certainly more effective than spraying from thousands of feet in the air, and more clandestine than jet aircraft leaving visual "evidence" behind them...

[PhantomWolf]

Most that I know do not.

Maybe I should introduce you to a few.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Nobody has mentioned the theory that they are creating a grid of particles as part of some HAARP-based weapon system. Against we, the people. I remember reading something about that.

Oh, and then there's the theory that they are spraying to try to discover the particle grids that a foreign enemy has put in the atmosphere, for weaponized weather warfare against us.

That stuff is out there. (I know, WAY out there).

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Maybe I should introduce you to a few.

Nah, that's ok, but thanks for the offer. ;)

[Panoply_Prefect]

Oh, dont forget the Flying Rods, (http://www.flyingrods.com/articlesfl/index.asp) another thing spawned by watching too much TV and surfing too much web.

/S

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Oh, dont forget the Flying Rods, (http://www.flyingrods.com/articlesfl/index.asp) another thing spawned by watching too much TV and surfing too much web.

/S


Good lord, now we have flying rods to worry about! Can't we just have the coming swarm of locusts and end this thing?

(That flying rod thingie looks like the one in the Fox News video clip from the WTC).

[Panoply_Prefect]

Oh, they are everywhere (http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=flying+rods&near=&btnG=Search+Videos)...

/S

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Oh, they are everywhere (http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=flying+rods&near=&btnG=Search+Videos)...

/S

They're actually kinda cute. I want a flying rod!!!!

[MRC_Hans]

The government started taking the vaccine the day they started spraying.

I think it's made by Bioport, which is owned by Carlyle Group.

(Just kidding).Which government? Them things are all over the world. And when did they start? Them things have existed ever since high-flying planes were invented (circa 1930).

Ahem, this seem a nice opportunity to promote my chemtrail article: http://www.hans-egebo.dk/skeptic/contrails.htm

Hans :D

[jsiv]

Nobody has mentioned the theory that they are creating a grid of particles as part of some HAARP-based weapon system. Against we, the people. I remember reading something about that.
How come none of you rent a plane and go up there and take some samples of the chemtrails?

Don't you want to blow the conspiracy wide open and expose it to the world?

[Dragon]

Which government? Them things are all over the world. And when did they start? Them things have existed ever since high-flying planes were invented (circa 1930).

Ahem, this seem a nice opportunity to promote my chemtrail article: http://www.hans-egebo.dk/skeptic/contrails.htm

Hans :DDidn't you write that at the time you were doing battle over at Chemtrail Central? Now where's that WW2 photo I posted on one of those old threads ... can't find the exact one but here's something similar -

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/atmosphere/contrails/b17-contrails.jpg

Good site (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/atmosphere/q0111.shtml) btw with the following interesting quote Designers of modern stealth aircraft must also be concerned about contrails since they can easily give away a plane's location to an observant enemy. While methods have been developed to inject (usually toxic) chemicals into a vehicle's exhaust to eliminate contrails, it's usually far more preferable to simply increase or decrease altitude until the atmospheric conditions no longer support their formation. - so you need to start worrying when you can't see the contrails!

[skepticalcriticalguy]

How come none of you rent a plane and go up there and take some samples of the chemtrails?

Don't you want to blow the conspiracy wide open and expose it to the world?

If that's aimed at me, I guess you haven't read my other posts.

[MRC_Hans]

Didn't you write that at the time you were doing battle over at Chemtrail Central? Now where's that WW2 photo I posted on one of those old threads ... can't find the exact one but here's something similar -

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/atmosphere/contrails/b17-contrails.jpg

Good site (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/atmosphere/q0111.shtml) btw with the following interesting quote - so you need to start worrying when you can't see the contrails!Yeah, that was the time. Of course, they ended up banning me. Good picture. I plan on updating my site, and hope to put some pictures into that article (I have been taking a lot of contrail pictures, just for the heck of it).

Hans

[GlennB]

Chemtrails was probably one of the first lunatic ideas I came across on the intertubes! Of course, this fits all their paranoid ideas, so they latch onto it just as easily and as strongly as the 9/11 fantasies.
Ebil Gubmint spraying mysterious chemicals. Reasons? Well, we don't really have one, but darn it, it just seems right!

Ha! You fool! The reasons are spelled out so clearly only a dolt could fail to understand :

"My own personal theory of chemtrails is that it's an attempt not so much to poison the populace, though that happens as a side effect of the droppings from the soup, which not only contains Barium Carbonate and aluminium salts but the all important mycoplasmas and blood cells and the like, but rather that it's an attempt to produce a persistant ionospheric oil-based DOR-transmitting emulsion, through which HAARP waves will be transmitted via the mobile masts/cell towers network, with the aim of damping down the ascending vibrational frequencies that the etheric field is emitting
In order for the controlling elite to sustain their guises and to keep the world's population enthralled and numbed. They're trying to bypass the 2012 uprising
The only workable way to counteract this I've found so far is via the Croftian orgone devices"

And you can thank the "orgone" crowd for the moderate 2006 US hurricane season, apparently.


(this is an unashamed plug for my March Stundie nomination. No fungi were harmed in the making of this post)

[fuelair]

If that's aimed at me, I guess you haven't read my other posts.No offense, but that would be rather pointless - unless you are offering clear, incontrovertible evidence supporting your beliefs in this or other matters. Supposition isn't fact - even if it turns out to be correct eventually.

[Alareth]

Ha! You fool! The reasons are spelled out so clearly only a dolt could fail to understand :

"My own personal theory of chemtrails is that it's an attempt not so much to poison the populace, though that happens as a side effect of the droppings from the soup, which not only contains Barium Carbonate and aluminium salts but the all important mycoplasmas and blood cells and the like, but rather that it's an attempt to produce a persistant ionospheric oil-based DOR-transmitting emulsion, through which HAARP waves will be transmitted via the mobile masts/cell towers network, with the aim of damping down the ascending vibrational frequencies that the etheric field is emitting
In order for the controlling elite to sustain their guises and to keep the world's population enthralled and numbed. They're trying to bypass the 2012 uprising
The only workable way to counteract this I've found so far is via the Croftian orgone devices"

And you can thank the "orgone" crowd for the moderate 2006 US hurricane season, apparently.


(this is an unashamed plug for my March Stundie nomination. No fungi were harmed in the making of this post)

I'm still trying to grasp where he says chemtrails contain blood cells...

[ktesibios]

A few things I've observed about "chemtrail" believers over the past few years:

They seem to have one method of distinguishing a "normal" contrail from a "chemtrail"- persistence. In the chemmie catechism, "normal" contrails dissipate in a matter of minutes, so any contrail which lasts longer, spreads or winds up as part of a newly-formed layer of cirrus clouds must be a chemtrail.

The thing is, this behavior has been observed as far back as WWII, when high-performance aircraft etched the skies of Europe with thousands upon thousands of contrails. I personally remember observing exactly the same thing- a set of five contrails which within a few hours had become identifiable lines in a layer of cirrus- on a nice fall day in 1968. The incident stuck in my memory because I happened to point it out to a classmate who was a black-belt meteorology buff and my, how he did go on about how and why clouds form and dissipate.

If persistence is the diagnostic feature of a "chemtrail", then an inescapable conclusion is that the eevil gummint conspiracy has been spraying us for nearly 40 years at minimum and perhaps for as long as 60 + years. It must not be working very quickly.

Chemmies, however, appear to be completely unaware that the thing which scares them so is by no means a new phenomenon, or of what the implications are for the "persistent contrails = chemtrails" hypothesis.

Anothe thing is that there's real scientific research going on into predicting the formation of persistent contrails with the intent to abate them, and this research isn't at all hard to find. Simply by Googling combinations of the keywords "contrails" "formation" and "persistence" I've turned up really interesting material about the experiental validation of predictive methods by making visual and photographic observations of contrail-forming aircraft, identifying the specific flights involved and their altitudes, obtaining data about weather conditions at those times and altitudes and correlating all that information with what theory predicts would happen.

For some reason, chemmies also seem to be completely oblivious to that work, as well as the history of contrails.

And finally, I can't help but notice that the rationalizations of why the eevil gummint conspiracy is spraying stuff all over the skies have changed dramatically without calling into question the existence of "chemtrails". "Back in the day", as it were, the popular belief was that it was chemical or biological substances intended to make us susceptible to diseases which the NWO would spread for the purpose of reducing the population, or chemicals intended to induce docility. Nowadays, chemmies are more likely to sieze on the fact that there have been some theoretical proposals that dispersing various substances in the atmosphere could be used to counter global warming as evidence in support of ravings about HAARP, weather control and electronic mind control.

It's interesting to see that the absurd inefficiency of using high-flying jets to disperse toxins or mind control chemicals may have sunk in through the chemmies' Alcoa beanies, but more interesting to see that the central belief- that the eevil gummint conspiracy is spraying something on a large scale for presumably evil purposes- retains its "protected from all doubt" status, irrespective of exactly what the evil purpose is claimed to be. This is theological, not scientific, thinking.

No matter what examples of chemical discharges for research purposes or Strangelovian-sounding ideas put forward by some scientists or engineers which conspiracist apologists might dredge up, the salient features of chemmie belief, which are common to most of the popular paranoid conspiracy theories in current circulation, remain. The backwards, start with the conclusion and cherry-pick, hammer and file the evidence to fit it reasoning, the insistence on using the most sinister available interpretation of observations, the circularity, the obliviousness to all information which fails to support or falsifies the PCT... it's all there.

And that, dear friends, is why I consider the conspiracist mode of thought, as a tool for understanding the world we live in, to be about as useful as a rubber screwdriver.

[David Wong]

How simple!
I think there is more to it than simply trails. From what I've read and seen in a couple documentaries...


Stop. Tell us your theory.

This drives me nuts, the way certain woos feel the need to dance around and soften up their theories just because they're around skeptics. It just makes conversation frustrating.

Who was that other guy who came in and swore he wasn't a 9/11 troother, then said, "All I'm saying is the buildings had some 'assistance' coming down!"

Come on. Just be honest. Stop dancing.

[David Wong]

Most of the CT's I know buy into all of them Pearl Habour, JFK, Apollo, 9/11, Chemtrails, Roswell and UFOs=ETVs....

I'd say 80 to 90 percent of the troothers I've run into also believed in at least one other conspiracy theory, either the Illuminati, or the Apollo Moon Landing hoax, something.

Somewhere around half of them subscribe to ALL conspiracy theories. Like Alex Jones, the SECOND they hear a new conspiracy, they immediately adopt it as being true, no questions asked.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

I'd say 80 to 90 percent of the troothers I've run into also believed in at least one other conspiracy theory

Do you believe in ANY? Or do we know, through the teevee, paper, and history books, the whole truth about everything?

[MRC_Hans]

Do you believe in ANY? Or do we know, through the teevee, paper, and history books, the whole truth about everything?

Is there a name for this fallacy? "If we don't know everything, then anything is possible"

Or, the reverse: "Since you don't believe in [insert pet CT], you must believe everything is true".

Obviously, conspiracies have happened, are happening, will happen. However, each conspiracy theory must be suppoerted independently, with its own arguments.

Hans

[GlennB]

Is there a name for this fallacy? "If we don't know everything, then anything is possible"

Or, the reverse: "Since you don't believe in [insert pet CT], you must believe everything is true".

Hans

Hmmm.... Looks a bit like a pre-fallacy manoeuvre - setting up the right woo-ish environment, like raking the soil before planting your seeds of gibberish.

[stilicho]

Do you believe in ANY? Or do we know, through the teevee, paper, and history books, the whole truth about everything?
Of course not. The bulk of what you "know" is acquired through experience. This is why magic tricks usually work on people. You don't expect a rabbit to emerge from an empty hat or a woman to be healthy after you see her sawn in half on stage.

In a similar fashion, chemtrail believers expect contrails to vanish within minutes. When they persist they look for reasons they aren't disappearing. Most of us, when we are looking for reasons things are happening, approach the problems critically. We accept the explanation that the hat wasn't empty and that the woman wasn't really sawn in half even though our senses and experience "lied" to us when we viewed the magic trick.

Chemtrail believers ruthlessly subordinate "book learning" to their own senses. Lots of the chemtrail sites I've seen confuse the weather conditions on the ground (it was too humid, too dry, too windy, not windy enough, too cold, too warm, etc.) with those thousands of metres aloft. They are successfully tricked into thinking their senses are accurate in distinguishing between genuine vapour trails and nefarious 'chemtrails'.

Moreover, chemtrail believers approach the issue of persistent vapour trails in the same manner they approach 9/11. The 'guvmint' is inherently evil and possesses untold wealth and power. "They" dance naked in front of statues of Moloch. "They" forced us to use debit cards and paper money instead of gold. So, obviously if "they" wanted to, "they" would pack jets with barrels of barium and aluminum to spray all over the good folks of Portland.

While you're trashing history books along with 'teevee' and the papers, could you point out one history book that you know is filled with lies? I would gladly debate you on any history book you care to name.

[MRC_Hans]

Sigh. I was hoping for a real chemie to appear. They are such easy prey. I'd go to their own sites, but they ban me on sight.

Hans

[PhantomWolf]

Do you believe in ANY? Or do we know, through the teevee, paper, and history books, the whole truth about everything?

In Conspiracies, or Conspiracy Theories? I believe that there are conspiracies, that there have been conspiracies in the past and will be in the future. Most of them are over silly power plays and come quickly to the light because people can't keep their mouths shut (Watergate, The Lewinskey Affair, and Enron are all examples.)

I also believe that what most of the CT crowd take as a conspiracy is nothing more than rampant after the fact butt covering by incompetents who want to keep their jobs and so will lie through their teeth, attempting to pass the buck to someone else so as to conceal their part in the systems failure that occurred.

Do I believe in sooper sekret Gubermints run by the Illuminate and a cabal of alien masters who pull off perfectly planned black ops to control the minds of the sheeple about the world, all done with vastly superior technology and followed up by terrorising any expert that might step out of line, except those that do? No. Why not, because there just is no evidence.

Do I believe the CT espoused by people like Jack White, Bart Sibrel, Steven Jones, Dylan Avery and Michael Moore? No, because they have no evidence and wouldn't know what evidence was if they fell over it. They flat out lie, they manipulate the facts more than the best Japanese Origamist, and when all else fails they just make stuff up. They have no education in science and even their common sense arguments generally fall flat as a deflated balloon when a small amount of light is brought to bear. They obfuscate, squirm and tap-dance their way about questions when faced with the facts and never ever answer a straight question, rather going off on rants about perceived holes in the "Official Story" rather then dealing with the canyons in their own.

If, and only if, the CT's (in ANY CT) come up with a consistent and logic storyline that can be examined and tested in the same way as the "Official Story" is, and that story not only passes those tests, but afterwards it is shown that it is MORE LIKELY than the Official Claims, then and only then am I willing to think that it might be credible.

While all that a CT contains is a bunch of uneducated nonsense, mangled facts, half-truths, outright lies, unqualified finger pointing, unsupported pseudo-scientific claims, absurd photo analysis, and political rants, then no, I won't accept it.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Stop. Tell us your theory.

This drives me nuts, the way certain woos feel the need to dance around and soften up their theories just because they're around skeptics. It just makes conversation frustrating.

Who was that other guy who came in and swore he wasn't a 9/11 troother, then said, "All I'm saying is the buildings had some 'assistance' coming down!"

Come on. Just be honest. Stop dancing.

What I'm saying is, research it!

What frustrates me is when skeptics ask questions like "what are CTers on when they claim..." and there is plenty out there to read/watch, that would explain the CT.

I'm not referring to you, DW, but some just ridiculke and "debunk" every CT they hear about, without ever even finding out what the CT actually is.

(I don't do Chemtrails, so no need to slam me on this one).

[MRC_Hans]

What I'm saying is, research it!

Research what? Do we run out and research it every time somebody gets a new daft idea? Why should we research that? I'ts their idea, let them research it.

What frustrates me is when skeptics ask questions like "what are CTers on when they claim..." and there is plenty out there to read/watch, that would explain the CT.

What frustrates me is that people feel it is my job to explain simple things to them, like in chemtrails, the physics in how clouds form and what comes out of aircraft engines. And when I do it, they just dismiss it because it does not fit their silly ideas.

I'm not referring to you, DW, but some just ridiculke and "debunk" every CT they hear about, without ever even finding out what the CT actually is.

Well, yes, I suppose we all do that sometimes. It sorta comes with the territory. When you have been through dozens of insane theories, you do tend to say -There's another one-. However, you can't say CTs are not generally taken seriously here; there may be people dismissing them right out, but there are just as many who go to great lengths analyzing them, explaining, asking for evidence, etc, etc.


(I don't do Chemtrails, so no need to slam me on this one).Fine, fine, but this thread happens to be about chemtrails, so if you don't mind, we'll talk about them if we like.

So, which CTs do you 'do'?

Hans

[PhantomWolf]

What frustrates me is when skeptics ask questions like "what are CTers on when they claim..."

That generally what I ask after researching the CT.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Here's a gallery with a few chem--err, contrail photos, one of which dates back to 1940, during the Battle of Britain, making it the oldest known photograph of contrails: http://www.goodsky.homestead.com/files/gallery.html

One caption:
More B-17 bombers over Germany during WWII, with fighter escorts overhead- all these pilots confirm that contrails "WOULD PERSIST FOR HOURS, EVEN DAYS"

[skepticalcriticalguy]

While you're trashing history books along with 'teevee' and the papers, could you point out one history book that you know is filled with lies? I would gladly debate you on any history book you care to name.

Well, considering "history" is subjective, it could be argued that every single history book is incorrect, on some level.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

In Conspiracies, or Conspiracy Theories? I believe that there are conspiracies, that there have been conspiracies in the past and will be in the future. Most of them are over silly power plays and come quickly to the light because people can't keep their mouths shut (Watergate, The Lewinskey Affair, and Enron are all examples.)



Ah, so you think we know the whole truth behind Watergate, Lewinsky, and Enron. It's nice for you that you have that safety net, only believing in the ones that HAVE been talked about, and "have come quickly to the light."

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Well, considering "history" is subjective, it could be argued that every single history book is incorrect, on some level.
Incorrectness does not necessarily translate into lies...

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Research what? Do we run out and research it every time somebody gets a new daft idea? Why should we research that? I'ts their idea, let them research it.


Hans

I was replying to the question posted. If the poster wants to know about Chemtrails, he should stop JAQing and research it. That's what I'm always told here.

But then, I guess the real question that was asked was "what are CTers on..." So the poster could research that too, if they have the time. I offered "mushrooms" as one answer.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Incorrectness does not necessarily translate into lies...

Remember the Poppy Bush bios that had him arriving in Texas for the first time in his red Studebaker? (In some accounts, it was brand new, in others it was old and run-down).

Whoever first published that published a lie. (I believe it was his campaign publicist). Then every "historian" after that used that piece of campaign literature as a source, so it was repeated many times.

The winners right history. The assassins. And the people in power.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Remember the Poppy Bush bios that had him arriving in Texas for the first time in his red Studebaker? (In some accounts, it was brand new, in others it was old and run-down).

Whoever first published that published a lie. (I believe it was his campaign publicist). Then every "historian" after that used that piece of campaign literature as a source, so it was repeated many times.

The winners right history. The assassins. And the people in power.
Odd that you would choose something so insignificant, but... whatever... Which version was a lie and what's your source for that information?

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Odd that you would choose something so insignificant, but... whatever... Which version was a lie and what's your source for that information?

Odd that you would find it odd. It's an example.

[Elizabeth I]

Remember the Poppy Bush bios that had him arriving in Texas for the first time in his red Studebaker? (In some accounts, it was brand new, in others it was old and run-down).

Whoever first published that published a lie. (I believe it was his campaign publicist). Then every "historian" after that used that piece of campaign literature as a source, so it was repeated many times.

The winners right history. The assassins. And the people in power.

What's the lie? It was blue, not red? It was a Ford, not a Studebaker? It wasn't a car at all, but a Conestoga wagon? And as Cl1mh4224rd says, what the h*ll does it matter?

And you "write" history, not "right" it. Unless you mean it was fallen over aslant and you propped it up straight.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Odd that you would find it odd. It's an example.
Not so odd, of course, that you completely failed to answer my question. Pretty typical, really. Make a claim, get asked to clarify, focus on something else.

Most people, when making an example, explain how their example is relevant.

But I like Elizabeth's question better: What's the lie?

[TjW]

A few things I've observed about "chemtrail" believers over the past few years:

They seem to have one method of distinguishing a "normal" contrail from a "chemtrail"- persistence. In the chemmie catechism, "normal" contrails dissipate in a matter of minutes, so any contrail which lasts longer, spreads or winds up as part of a newly-formed layer of cirrus clouds must be a chemtrail.

The thing is, this behavior has been observed as far back as WWII, when high-performance aircraft etched the skies of Europe with thousands upon thousands of contrails. I personally remember observing exactly the same thing- a set of five contrails which within a few hours had become identifiable lines in a layer of cirrus- on a nice fall day in 1968. The incident stuck in my memory because I happened to point it out to a classmate who was a black-belt meteorology buff and my, how he did go on about how and why clouds form and dissipate.

If persistence is the diagnostic feature of a "chemtrail", then an inescapable conclusion is that the eevil gummint conspiracy has been spraying us for nearly 40 years at minimum and perhaps for as long as 60 + years. It must not be working very quickly.


At least since 1942. And Antoine Saint-Exupery must have been in on it, because in Flight to Arras, he put in a paragraph or two remarking on the contrails of his plane, and how they could, under the right conditions, expand to cover the whole sky.

[EternalSceptic]

At least since 1942. And Antoine Saint-Exupery must have been in on it, because in Flight to Arras, he put in a paragraph or two remarking on the contrails of his plane, and how they could, under the right conditions, expand to cover the whole sky.

After an observation I made about an hour ago I must say I can understand why technically uneducated people "fall" for the chemtrail "theory".

It was five o'clock in the morning and the sun just raising. I could see two airplanes, one flying roughly west, the other roughly south in the same area of the sky. While the plane flying west had a long, persistent contrail the contrail of the other dissipated almost immediately.

Of course there is a very simple explanation:

I live in an area where there are three international airports within a range of no more than 100 miles and several "air streets" are crossing above my place.
The plane heading west was very high and on it's way from a distant to another distant airport flying at cruising power, the other was lower (but still well above 10000 ft) and had reduced power because it was approaching an airport in the vicinity (VIE, abt 50 miles away). The different behavior of the contrails was due to different altitude and different throttle settings. Different types of engines may as well have played some role.

Given the fact that it is not easy to estimate the altitude of an airplane the different contrail behavior could easily misinterpreted by technically naive peole

[MRC_Hans]

What is "real history?" The stuff in the history text books? Can it change with further research and analysis? New facts being discovered?

And isn't "history" open to interpretation?Not when it comes to contrails. Contrails have been know ever since man started to use high altitude aircraft, which means ca. 1920. During WW2, the skies over Europe were criss-crossed with contrails from the bomber streams.

Contrails isn't history, it's physics.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

After an observation I made about an hour ago I must say I can understand why technically uneducated people "fall" for the chemtrail "theory".

It was five o'clock in the morning and the sun just raising. I could see two airplanes, one flying roughly west, the other roughly south in the same area of the sky. While the plane flying west had a long, persistent contrail the contrail of the other dissipated almost immediately.

Of course there is a very simple explanation:

I live in an area where there are three international airports within a range of no more than 100 miles and several "air streets" are crossing above my place.
The plane heading west was very high and on it's way from a distant to another distant airport flying at cruising power, the other was lower (but still well above 10000 ft) and had reduced power because it was approaching an airport in the vicinity (VIE, abt 50 miles away). The different behavior of the contrails was due to different altitude and different throttle settings. Different types of engines may as well have played some role.

Given the fact that it is not easy to estimate the altitude of an airplane the different contrail behavior could easily misinterpreted by technically naive peoleA slight correction: The persistence of the contrail does not depend on the throttle setting or engine type (at least only marginally), it has everything to do with the conditions in the particular altitude of the plane.

But, as you mention, it is impossible to judge the altitude of a high-flying plane, even within miles, and since a few hundred yards can make a profound difference in contrail behaviour (there are various tresholds for condensation and evaporation), thw planes that seem to be in exactly the same altitude can show very different contrails.

All this is very likely Greek to people with little knowledge of technology and meteorology, and that is fine. But then why do they (some of them) insist on making their own conclusions? If you have little knowledge of some area, you must simply trust those who know.

Anyway, it is not from the study of the skies you can realize that the chemtrail theory is bogus. It is, if you think about it, probably the most bizarre of all CTs:

Some operator (be it the NWO or whomever) runs a clandestine operation to spray more or less the entire globe several times a week, for whatever evil purpose. Such an operation will require thousands of planes, the cooperation of tens of thousands of crew, maintenance people, people producing and distributing whatever it is they spray, plus ALL air traffic controllers, both civilian and military, ALL OVER THE WORLD. It has gone on for decades, but not ONE of all these people, although they themselves and their families and friends are among the victims, has EVER spilled the beans.

.... I mean, for any normally thinking person, the whole thing should stop right there. You don't have to know a thing about planes, clouds, or condensation physics. You don't even have to go outdoors.

Hans

[Regnad Kcin]

...And again, no I do not buy into the chemtrail thing. (Not yet!)Well then hurry up and get with it, man! Time's a wastin'!

[Regnad Kcin]

Nobody has mentioned the theory that they are creating a grid of particles as part of some HAARP-based weapon system. Against we, the people. I remember reading something about that.

Oh, and then there's the theory that they are spraying to try to discover the particle grids that a foreign enemy has put in the atmosphere, for weaponized weather warfare against us.Nobody has mentioned the theory that chemtrails are actually airplanes going number one because they just can't hold it until they make it back to the airport.

That stuff is out there. (I know, WAY out there).Please send a postcard now and again.

[Tirdun]

A buddy and I tried to find the oddest online belief (CT or otherwise) a few years back, as a sort of contest. This was back in the heady days after the Y2K end of days turned out to be more about late night code searches and less about pale horses and brimstone.

At first it was fun, topping each other with dumber and dumber stuff. Oddball religions, stickers on the back of road signs pointing the way for UN NWO takeover armies (not kidding) and Planet X countdowns got played pretty early.

Then... then it got depressing. We'd still top each other occasionally, but it got harder and harder to objectively judge whether this end-days date setter was really crazier than the guy who insisted that all numbers / 0 == 1 or the "pyramid is a water pump" dude. Crazy is in the eye of the beholder, I guess, and we were beholding a whole lot of crazy. Very earnest (if lacking HTML design restraint) web pages full of crazy.

Eventually we called it off. Having turned the sharp spotlight onto humanity without being prepared for the reflected glare is an unsettling experience. I've since come to the conclusion that there is nothing so daft, so crazy, so inexplicably impossible that someone, somewhere won't believe wholeheartedly in it, and that quite honestly scares me. I must question my steadfast beliefs enough, I tell myself, not to fall into that trap.

[uk_dave]

Out of a world population of 6.5 billion, a couple of thousand whackjobs aint bad going for the human race.

It's rather like fetishes and pornography, it doesn't really matter how bizarre it is, there'll always be someone, somewhere who gets off on it.

[bje]

I wonder why the average Cter is too stupid to understand that the poison chentrails the government is spraying us with are also poisoning themselves...I guess CTs don't have to be logical :)

Shhhh....! Don't give away the government plot!

[EternalSceptic]

A slight correction: The persistence of the contrail does not depend on the throttle setting or engine type (at least only marginally), it has everything to do with the conditions in the particular altitude of the plane.

But, as you mention, it is impossible to judge the altitude of a high-flying plane, even within miles, and since a few hundred yards can make a profound difference in contrail behaviour (there are various tresholds for condensation and evaporation), thw planes that seem to be in exactly the same altitude can show very different contrails.

All this is very likely Greek to people with little knowledge of technology and meteorology, and that is fine. But then why do they (some of them) insist on making their own conclusions? If you have little knowledge of some area, you must simply trust those who know.

Anyway, it is not from the study of the skies you can realize that the chemtrail theory is bogus. It is, if you think about it, probably the most bizarre of all CTs:

Some operator (be it the NWO or whomever) runs a clandestine operation to spray more or less the entire globe several times a week, for whatever evil purpose. Such an operation will require thousands of planes, the cooperation of tens of thousands of crew, maintenance people, people producing and distributing whatever it is they spray, plus ALL air traffic controllers, both civilian and military, ALL OVER THE WORLD. It has gone on for decades, but not ONE of all these people, although they themselves and their families and friends are among the victims, has EVER spilled the beans.

.... I mean, for any normally thinking person, the whole thing should stop right there. You don't have to know a thing about planes, clouds, or condensation physics. You don't even have to go outdoors.

Hans

Can it be, that a similar lack of imagination and understanding makes these people unable to even remotely estimate _how_ complex and therefore unlikely/impossible such a conspiracy is?

I made the experience, that for a majority of people, even well educated, correct logical deduction is totally impossible. Hoewever, they are convinced that their "logic" is error-free.

[Bobert]

How simple!

I think there is more to it than simply trails. From what I've read and seen in a couple documentaries. But I'm no Chemtrail-blazer.

Are any of you from Portland? I guess that's a "hotbed."

Have you ever noticed that every CT'er who believes this stuff claims that their area is the most effected?

So many of these CT'ers running around crying about chemtrails you would think that the government must have 100's of planes flying 24/7.

[steve s]

Have you ever noticed that every CT'er who believes this stuff claims that their area is the most effected?


It's even funnier when they say things like, "I've noticed that I'm coughing more today."

Steve S.

[steve s]

Such an operation will require thousands of planes, the cooperation of tens of thousands of crew, maintenance people, people producing and distributing whatever it is they spray, plus ALL air traffic controllers, both civilian and military, ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Hans

I made a similar post in another thread a while back. You'd have to include the engineers who designed the spraying system into the plane, the people who built the plane. There'd have to be tanker trucks roaming our highways with this stuff. And there'd have to be those smaller tanker trucks at the airports to distribute the stuff among the planes. It's mind boggling that people can think this is all going on right under our noses.

Steve S.

[MRC_Hans]

It's even funnier when they say things like, "I've noticed that I'm coughing more today."

Steve S.Especially as an aerosol released at 30.000ft will take more than a week to descend to surface level. And by that time, the persisting winds at high altitudes, which regularly exceed 100mph, will have blown them half-way around the globe. The very definition chemies use for a chemtrail (that it persists for some time) defeats its purpose. If it persists, it must be sinking very slowly, and then ......

Actually, it is even sillier: The only thing that can persist for any considerable time is a cloud phenomenon driven by the energy released by condensation. The released heat makes the air rise by convection, which sucks in new air from below, which releases new condensation, etc....

An aerosol will just disperse. No need to take my word for this; you can make a simpe experiment:

Take an aerosol can (a hair-spray is cheap and relatively harmless).
Pick out a high spot in a day with moderate wind, stand with your back to the wind, and spray downwind.
Observe the trail.

According to the chemies, you should see a long white (or whitish) trail that stretches downwind for as long as you care to spray, only slowly widening.

What you will observe is that a cloud that rapidly disperses, in a vee-shaped pattern and becomes too thin to see. That is how aerosols behave. They don't even look like contrails.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

I made a similar post in another thread a while back. You'd have to include the engineers who designed the spraying system into the plane, the people who built the plane. There'd have to be tanker trucks roaming our highways with this stuff. And there'd have to be those smaller tanker trucks at the airports to distribute the stuff among the planes. It's mind boggling that people can think this is all going on right under our noses.

Steve S.Yeah. And loading stewards at airports. And various airport personnel who are not directly involved, but are bound to notice all those planes that are loaded from trucks or tankers. .. Subcontractors to the manufacturers of spraying material. Accountants reviewing their economy. Researchers who invented the stuff. Civil servants who'll have to approve funding. Politicians. Bankers. Plane spotters. Crew and passengers in other planes passing at high altitudes. Actually, before you are finished, we'll be at some 10% of the population.

Hans

[MG1962]

Well I for one can attest to the secret of chemtrails. At time I counted 27 of them in the sky at any one time while visiting Kansas last year

I had a great time, met a fantastic bunch of people and thought the USA was fascinating and an amazing place

Therefore I can only assume the chemtrails were responsible for this. Otherwise I should have encounted the despotic neocon world of modern America.

Ooops - I see the fatal flaw in my theory. The government was trying to do some good. Clearly we cant have that happening

[MRC_Hans]

Oh, btw: One of the chemie sites referenced in this thread claims that chemtrails (persistent contrails) are observed over all countries except China. I'm going to China next week. Will take some pictures of contrails.

Hans

[Civilized Worm]

Well, considering "history" is subjective<snip>


WHAT?


Ah, so you think we know the whole truth behind Watergate, Lewinsky, and Enron. It's nice for you that you have that safety net, only believing in the ones that HAVE been talked about, and "have come quickly to the light."


Dude, we know TOO MUCH about the Lewinsky affair! Read some of this if you'd don't value your sanity: http://www.rotten.com/library/history/political-scandal/lewinsky-affair/

[CaptainHair]

I'm getting married in August. My fiance has an uncle who, how shall I put this, is seriously whacked about chemtrails. If he wakes up with a stopped up nose, he will run to the door and look up into the sky. If he sees any white clouds (contrails or cumulus clouds!) he says "Yep, they're sprayin' hard today. Durn gubmint!" Then, he'll spend the rest of the day chatting with his chemtrail buddies. Now, he lives near both the Atlanta airport and Dobbins ARB but dismisses all this as 'collusion'.

Now, the question. Should I go through with the wedding? Of course, I will. It's just that I've never seen anyone with this kind of loony passion before. My fiance just ignores all the weird stuff. She is a Democrat, however. I'll bring her over to the dark side after we're married.

[Calcas]

Everybody has a crazy Uncle (or two.)

As long as your fiance knows, "Oh, that's just Uncle Harry" then I wouldn't be concerned.

Though the Democrat thing has me a bit worried...

[JimBenArm]

Everybody has a crazy Uncle (or two.)

As long as your fiance knows, "Oh, that's just Uncle Harry" then I wouldn't be concerned.

Though the Democrat thing has me a bit worried...
A little electroshock will clear that right up. The Democrat thing, not the uncle. Not much short of a brain transplant can help with that.

[tsig]

A little electroshock will clear that right up. The Democrat thing, not the uncle. Not much short of a brain transplant can help with that.

Electroshock will help. You just have to shave the head and use the right voltage.(10 to 20 KV) lol

[CaptainHair]

Wow, Calcas, how did you know her uncle's name was Harry?

Freaky!

[Belz...]

There are no coincidences, Captain.