Breaking News! 9/11 Mastermind confesses

[Oliver]

Key 9/11 suspect confesses guilt



Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind behind the 11 September attacks, has admitted responsibility, a court transcript says.

"I was responsible for the 9/11 Operation, from A to Z," he said.
He also reportedly confessed to planning 29 acts of terrorism, including plans to attack Big Ben and Heathrow airport in London....

Full Story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6452573.stm

[Arus808]

wont connect to site...

[PhantomWolf]

They obviously tortured him into it.

[Oliver]

More sources:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-US-Terrorist-Confession.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ksm15mar15,0,3709403.story?coll=la-home-headlines
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/03/14/guantanamo.mohammed.reut/index.html
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1599279,00.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1517759.ece
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/politics/4632195.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-03-14-gitmo-confession_N.htm
http://www.woai.com/news/national/story.aspx?content_id=6b724403-6518-4d12-9d1f-6c7894241f38
http://www.centredaily.com/128/story/41424.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1517759.ece
http://www.wmur.com/news/11255120/detail.html
http://www.news10.net/display_story.aspx?storyid=25505
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/politics/16904185.htm
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070314/BREAKINGNEWS/70314029
http://www.wral.com/news/political/story/1235059/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-070314terrorist,1,3940502.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

[MikeW]

He confessed before they arrested him, so I'm not sure why this is any great surprise...? (See http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,906911,00.html , for instance.)

[PhantomWolf]

Like it will make a difference. OBL has only admitted it what, 5 times? The CT crowd will just fingers in ears and "lalalalalalala" it away.

[firecoins]

Didn't Larry Silverstein "confess" to "pulling WTC 7?

Didn't Rumsfeld "confess" to shooting flight 93 down?

[hellaeon]

Yeah I also was just reading about Viacom lauching the lawsuit against google and youtube for massive copyright violations. They reckon they went through and removed 100,000 videos or something. So much for the government trying to silence the movement on youtube and google video conspiracy.

Thats two big CT theories smashed again

[Oliver]

Like it will make a difference. OBL has only admitted it what, 5 times? The CT crowd will just fingers in ears and "lalalalalalala" it away.


You didn't get the point - it does not matter what the Tinhats
think, THE WORLDS POPULATION now will think:

THAT'S IT! END OF STORY. :D

[MikeW]

Unclassified transcripts at the bottom of http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Combatant_Tribunals.html .

[Mince]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258817,00.html


So that's it, right? The conspiracy theorists will admit they were wrong and refocus their <cough>investigations<cough> on more pressing matters, such as the moon landing, right? Surely no conspiracy theorist will claim that Mohammed was coerced, pay-rolled or is a fake, not without sufficient evidence, right? That's not how the conspiracy theorists operate, right? Certainly they will not fabricate several, and sometimes competing, unsubstantiated reasons why Mohammed did not actually confess, right? They will not dismiss his confession outright and preemptively using these unsubstantiated theories, all the while condemning the 9/11 Commission report for the very same, right? They'll be happy the matter is put to rest even though it invalidates their last three years of existence and makes them look none too bright, right?

Right?

[PhantomWolf]

The world's population already thought that.

Those that think the US knew and let it happen will still think that, and those that believe that the US government did it will just ignore this or rationalise it away as a fabrication or torture extracted confession. Nothing is going to change today that wasn't there yesterday, except we have one more puzzle piece to give the fence sitters.

[volatile]

<Fark>What, Ron Jeremy was behind 9/11?</Fark>

[PhantomWolf]

ToSeeked (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=77005)

[Mince]

<Repeat Post>

[PhantomWolf]

So that's it, right? The conspiracy theorists will admit they were wrong and refocus their <cough>investigations<cough> on more pressing matters, such as the moon landing, right? Surely no conspiracy theorist will claim that Mohammed was coerced, pay-rolled or is a fake, not without sufficient evidence, right? That's not how the conspiracy theorists operate, right? Certainly they will not fabricate several, and sometimes competing, unsubstantiated reasons why Mohammed did not actually confess, right? They will not dismiss his confession outright and preemptively using these unsubstantiated theories, all the while condemning the 9/11 Commission report for the very same, right? They'll be happy the matter is put to rest even though it invalidates their last three years of existence and makes them look none too bright, right?

Right?

I'm sure they are all writting up their resignation blogs now, Yeah Right!

There are none so deluded as those that will not see, except a CT.

[Oliver]

The world's population already thought that.

Those that think the US knew and let it happen will still think that, and those that believe that the US government did it will just ignore this or rationalise it away as a fabrication or torture extracted confession. Nothing is going to change today that wasn't there yesterday, except we have one more puzzle piece to give the fence sitters.


Today will not change the world - but together with the trial and the
final verdict, it will close many open questions in "regular Joe's" mind.
Dylan really should hurry before his "worldwide" movie-audience retracts. :boxedin:

[PhantomWolf]

Today will not change the world - but together with the trial and the
final verdict, it will close many open questions in "regular Joe's" mind.
Dylan really should hurry before his "worldwide" movie-audience retracts. :boxedin:

Oliver, you have greater faith in humanity than I do, that's for sure.

[Mince]

<Repeat Post>

[A W Smith]

Any evidence that would be a detriment to their film/cd income they will ignore.
Dylan Avery & Jason Bermas were asked. "what would it take to change your mind" They replied
"Theres Nothing" & "Theres no way around this"

[Lisa Simpson]

I merged the two threads together.

[Horatius]

I'm sure they are all writting up their resignation blogs now, Yeah Right!

There are none so deluded as those that will not see, except a CT.



LCF reacts. (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5499)

You don't really need to read it, you can probably predict what they all have to say.

[Alareth]

ToSeeked (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=77005)

A frequenter of the bautforums I take it?

[WildCat]

LCF reacts. (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5499)

You don't really need to read it, you can probably predict what they all have to say.
Yes, thay're all claiming he was tortured into confessing. But wasn't KSM in the video found in Afghanistan soon after the war began, the one where OBL talks about how the towers fell down?

[PhantomWolf]

A frequenter of the bautforums I take it?

I wear my BAUT Namebadge with pride. :)

[A W Smith]

Tussle Tussle [/jim Norton]

Look how miserable he looks. They must have beaten the crap out of him. And this photo is from 2003.

BEFORE:
(Posted Image (http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20070309/capt.sge.ebd45.090307161454.photo01.photo.default-384x512.jpg))

AFTER:
(Posted Image (http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070314/capt.15189adfc602478bb528d0656b14fffc.us_terrorist _confession_ny115.jpg))
(Posted Image (http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20070315/2007_03_14t192159_450x338_us_guantanamo_mohammed.j pg))

[Oliver]

Oliver, you have greater faith in humanity than I do, that's for sure.

Nonsense, i live in germany and many people here never closed 9/11
in their minds - even if they did not think about it in the last years.

A message like this confession will close many unanswered questions.
I don't know about america, but in non-american countries this will be
the case.

It's a natural, psychological effect and probably destroys Dylans
plans to catch non-american attention into a solved case/outdated
movie. So i guess it's one point for us as long he wasn't tortured...

[skepticalcriticalguy]

I thought Bin Laden did it.

[PhantomWolf]

Do I win the $mill? (see my post in #3)

[WildCat]

I thought Bin Laden did it.
Obviously you don't make any effort to understand the events happening in the world, do you?

[Oliver]

I thought Bin Laden did it.


No kidding here? OB was the executer, Mohammed the planner.

[Trigood]

So that's it, right? The conspiracy theorists will admit they were wrong and refocus their <cough>investigations<cough> on more pressing matters, such as the moon landing, right? Surely no conspiracy theorist will claim that Mohammed was coerced, pay-rolled or is a fake, not without sufficient evidence, right? That's not how the conspiracy theorists operate, right? Certainly they will not fabricate several, and sometimes competing, unsubstantiated reasons why Mohammed did not actually confess, right? They will not dismiss his confession, outright and preemptively, using these unsubstantiated theories, all the while condemning the 9/11 Commission report for the very same, right? They'll be happy the matter is put to rest even though it invalidates their last three years of existence and makes them look none too bright, right?

Right?

Of course! They will all go tend their morrell gardens.... or pick at their navel lint... or do whatever it was they were doing before they dashed their productive lives to smithereens as 9/11 CTers....

Morrell eaters and the navel inspectors (NPI*) of the world, rejoice!

(*No Pun Intended.)

....

Oops, I forgot. They don't care about evidence. Oh well! Languish, morrells! Languish, navel lint!

:boggled:

[WildCat]

I thought Bin Laden did it.
Here's a story from 2003 (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/04/terror.war.congress/index.html):
"Khalid Shaikh Mohammed -- the brain -- is the al Qaeda mastermind of the September 11th attacks and Osama bin Laden's senior terrorist attack planner," Ashcroft said.

So skepticalcriticalguy, how have you not been aware of this after 3 years? And it's been known for much longer than that that he was the mastermind. How have you not discovered this doing all that super-terrific troofer research you do?

[WildCat]

Oh dear, how are the troofers going to say the confession was the result of torture when he bragged about it to al Jazeera (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/09/12/alqaeda.911.claim/index.html) 6 months before his capture?
In the second part of a documentary aired by the Arabic television news network Al-Jazeera, two al Qaeda terrorists wanted by the United States give an account of their planning of the September 11 attacks and describe the actions of some of the main hijackers in their final days.

The documentary contains accounts and quotes attributed to Ramzi Binalshibh, described in the documentary as the "coordinator of the September 11 operation," and Khalid Shaikh Mohammad, a Kuwaiti who is on the United States' "most wanted" terrorist list and is believed by authorities to be one of the primary planners.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Here's a [url=http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/04/terror.war.congress/index.htmlstory from 2003:


So skepticalcriticalguy, how have you not been aware of this after 3 years? And it's been known for much longer than that that he was the mastermind. How have you not discovered this doing all that super-terrific troofer research you do?[/quote]

The Teevee just told me he plotted it, "from A to Z." So what did Bin Bin do then?

[volatile]

:

The Teevee just told me he plotted it, "from A to Z." So what did Bin Bin do then?

Decided he wanted it to happen, and paid (or at least raised the funding) for it...

Have you ever had a job, SCG? You do understand how organisational bureaucracy works, right?

[WildCat]

Have you ever had a job, SCG?
You're talking to a troofer remember!

[A W Smith]

:


So skepticalcriticalguy, how have you not been aware of this after 3 years? And it's been known for much longer than that that he was the mastermind. How have you not discovered this doing all that super-terrific troofer research you do?

The Teevee just told me he plotted it, "from A to Z." So what did Bin Bin do then?


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$

[Hutch]

ToSeeked (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=77005)

Just to repeat something I posted back in 2005, for anyone not understanding the above (updated Forum name):

BAUT=Bad Astronomy Universe Today Forum

ToSeeked=The BAUT has a poster, ToSeek, that is well-known for getting a thread started on a topic 5 minutes before yours on the same topic. Hence when someone beats you to a topic on the BAUT, you have been "ToSeeked"

that is all.

[Brainster]

It was the fat Sheikh Mohammed! And anyway, the BBC has a video of him wiping his butt with his left hand, when everybody knows he's right-handed!

[Oliver]

It was the fat Sheikh Mohammed! And anyway, the BBC has a video of him wiping his butt with his left hand, when everybody knows he's right-handed!

LOL! :D

[A W Smith]

One ply or two?

It was the fat Sheikh Mohammed! And anyway, the BBC has a video of him wiping his butt with his left hand, when everybody knows he's right-handed!

[PhantomWolf]

So what did Bin Bin do then?

OBL has said that he handpicked the 19, and that he paid for it. He is also responsible as the leader of the group and the one that made the decision to go with the plan that was devised. Did Bush plan all the details of the Iraq invasion, or did he rely on his people to do the details and just make the big decisions?

[WildCat]

Oh dear, how are the troofers going to say the confession was the result of torture when he bragged about it to al Jazeera (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/09/12/alqaeda.911.claim/index.html) 6 months before his capture?
Heh, turns out you can buy the documentary at Walmart (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?dest=9999999997&product_id=2193455&sourceid=0100000030660805302498)!

[PhantomWolf]

Heh, turns out you can buy the documentary at Walmart (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?dest=9999999997&product_id=2193455&sourceid=0100000030660805302498)!

So what you are saying is that Walmart is in on it too. (and since NASA bought their flags for the faked moonlandings there too*... Conspiracy!!!!)





*Actually while they were bought from a local store, it wasn't a Walmart. No one is quite sure where it actually was though as the exact shop doesn't seem to have been recorded.

[WildCat]

Wow, Killtown thinks this came out today to draw attention away from his video (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5499&view=findpost&p=12679822):
Anybody notice this announcement comes only 2 days after I released my first segment of my flick?

[PhantomWolf]

Wow, Killtown thinks this came out today to draw attention away from his video (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5499&view=findpost&p=12679822):

Not like he has a big ego or anything, lol

[gumboot]

I think Oliver is right. This is huge.

This is not the same as confessing under torture, nor releasing a grainy video.

I'm not sure what the legal status of a "combatant status review hearing" is in the United States, but I think the only thing that could be more significant is if he confessed openly in court.

Consider.

Confession means no trial. Straight to sentencing. Within a year the world's single most dangerous man could be locked away, forever.

He is not just "a member of Al Qaeda". This is the brains of the outfit. This is the guy who came up with the concept of using aircraft as weapons. This is the guy intelligent enough to understand how these sort of attacks impact western society. Look at Bojinka. It wasn't simply a case of "blow heaps of planes up". The timing was very calculated for maximum impact.

This is a huge step closer to securing a conviction.

-Gumboot

[Kryptos]

Here's another link:

September 11 mastermind 'confesses' (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BA2B7119-DF1D-427E-857E-5C44E3479F2A.htm) - Al Jazeera

[Mince]

I find particularly amusing the several CTs who claimed the skeptics and debunkers are so blind, we would debunk George Bush actually confessing. I wonder if the irony hammer has yet hit them in the head on this one.


http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php=3fshowtopic=3d5499 (http://www.surefireproxy.com/cgi-bin/nph-proxy.pl/000110A/http/z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php=3fshowtopic=3d5499)

[WildCat]

Confession means no trial. Straight to sentencing. Within a year the world's single most dangerous man could be locked away, forever facing a firing squad.
Fixed that for ya. :cool:

[Axiom_Blade]

At the risk of sounding like a CTist...

It's frigging Guantanamo Bay. OF COURSE he was tortured! Just because he didn't confess under torture, doesn't mean that he wasn't tortured to confess.

Also:
According to the transcripts, Sheikh Mohammed admitted responsibility for a series of attacks, including the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Centre in New York and the attempt by the so-called shoe bomber, Richard Reid, to down an American plane.

He also claimed to be behind plots to assassinate the late Pope John Paul II and former US President Bill Clinton.


It sounds like he's confessing to anything and everything.
Confessions don't hold a lot of weight with me.

[Mince]

At the risk of sounding like a CTist...

It's frigging Guantanamo Bay. OF COURSE he was tortured! Just because he didn't confess under torture, doesn't mean that he wasn't tortured to confess.

Also:


It sounds like he's confessing to anything and everything.
Confessions don't hold a lot of weight with me.


This is a reasonable position. He could have been tortured to confess. We do not know. I wonder if the "A to Z" was his wording. That seems a little awkward, coming from Mohammed.

[PhantomWolf]

I see it's a bad day for Terrorism in the US courts (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/95F6575D-2E88-40F7-B790-42A30BD22310.htm)

[WildCat]

At the risk of sounding like a CTist...

It's frigging Guantanamo Bay. OF COURSE he was tortured! Just because he didn't confess under torture, doesn't mean that he wasn't tortured to confess.

Also:


It sounds like he's confessing to anything and everything.
Confessions don't hold a lot of weight with me.
Did al Jazeera torture him into discussing his role in 9/11 and other terrorist plots 6 months prior to his capture?

[pomeroo]

[=skepticalcriticalguy;2426606]I thought Bin Laden did it.


No you didn't.

[WildCat]

This is a reasonable position. He could have been tortured to confess. We do not know. I wonder if the "A to Z" was his wording. That seems a little awkward, coming from Mohammed.
It's a translation, is there a popular Arabic expression w/ a similar meaning?

[Pardalis]

No you didn't.

Good one. :D

[Axiom_Blade]

Did al Jazeera torture him into discussing his role in 9/11 and other terrorist plots 6 months prior to his capture?

No, I don't think so.
But why's everybody get so excited when a terrorist confesses?
They are not, after all, considered to be the most honest and truthful people.
9/11 was a HUGE event. If I were a terrorist, I'd want to take credit for that, too. Especially if the US is bound and determined to have it pinned on me in the first place.

Of course, if the preponderence of other evidence points in his direction, then he's probably guilty...

[CHF]

Oh dear, how are the troofers going to say the confession was the result of torture when he bragged about it to al Jazeera (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/09/12/alqaeda.911.claim/index.html) 6 months before his capture?

Nothing that can't be patched up with "Al Jazeera is a CIA disinfo front."

[strathmeyer]

LCF reacts. (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5499)

You don't really need to read it, you can probably predict what they all have to say.

Reality indistinguishable from parody:

Yeah 3/4 of Guantamo detainees have confessed to masterminded 9/11 and hoaxing the moon landings..........

I still don't understand what their criteria for banning people is...

[Kryptos]

I am having difficulties getting onto the BBC News website to read the story. Their site is extremely slow. Is it just me?

[Mince]

It's a translation, is there a popular Arabic expression w/ a similar meaning?

ETA: That's what I was thinking. Just looking for confirmation. The expression would be "totality", or "in whole"; something like that.


I have thought a little about this. "Inside Job" nonsense aside, how would the government benefit by torturing Mohammed into confession? Their goal, presumably, is to apprehend all persons responsible, not necessarily to appease the public, but to assure its safety. If Mohammed had no role in 9/11, forcing him to falsely confess, while the actual executors remain at large, does not fulfill this goal.

[Babbylonian]

No, I don't think so.
But why's everybody get so excited when a terrorist confesses?
They are not, after all, considered to be the most honest and truthful people.
9/11 was a HUGE event. If I were a terrorist, I'd want to take credit for that, too. Especially if the US is bound and determined to have it pinned on me in the first place.

Of course, if the preponderence of other evidence points in his direction, then he's probably guilty...
First off, I think that folks around here are only "excited" in the sense that this is the sort of thing that, when widely reported, reduces the number of CT-susceptible people in the general populace. The fewer people who need "extra" education, the better.

Second, I agree that terrorists would generally love to take credit for 9/11. However, they're far more likely to do so when roaming free than when the admission will almost certainly lead [unfortunately] to a death sentence. If the confessor is truly an observant of Islam - even a radical brand - it seems even more unlikely that he would lie in that situation with Allah's judgement waiting around the corner (I wouldn't think that taking credit for the "holy work" of others would impress Allah overmuch).

That said, I agree with you that a confession is only part of the evidence desired by the judiciary when determining guilt or innocence - any number of people have confessed to crimes, only to be acquitted after a trial. If someone walked in off the street and confessed to conspiring to kill JFK - to use an extreme example - their word wouldn't be nearly enough to put them in jail, let alone land them on death row.

[WildCat]

I have thought a little about this. "Inside Job" nonsense aside, how would the government benefit by torturing Mohammed into confession? Their goal, presumably, is to apprehend all persons responsible, not necessarily to appease the public, but to assure its safety. If Mohammed had no role in 9/11, forcing him to falsely confess, while the actual executors remain at large, does not fulfill this goal.
He was waterboarded, but this was done to get him to reveal information, not as a confession device. As the al Jazeera documentary shows, he was more than willing to brag about his deeds and take full credit for them.

[The Demon's Head]

One would think that this confession would be the nail in the coffin to the truth movement.

Troofers will probably continue on with their lies.

[LashL]

I have thought a little about this. "Inside Job" nonsense aside, how would the government benefit by torturing Mohammed into confession? Their goal, presumably, is to apprehend all persons responsible, not necessarily to appease the public, but to assure its safety. If Mohammed had no role in 9/11, forcing him to falsely confess, while the actual executors remain at large, does not fulfill this goal.

[off topic] Well, actually, law enforcement agencies have been known to engage in "tunnel vision" and have been known to deliberately and/or grossly negligently seek to close files to appease the public outcry for "justice" - particularly with regard to heinous and horrific crimes - by knowingly withholding evidence, by knowingly railroading innocent people, and by all manner of other dishonourable tactics. I'm not saying that this is the case with KSM but, sadly, it is true that many law enforcement agencies have been guilty of deliberately seeking to convict innocent people knowing full well that the guilty parties are still at large.
[/off topic]

[Mince]

[off topic] Well, actually, law enforcement agencies have been known to engage in "tunnel vision" and have been known to deliberately and/or grossly negligently seek to close files to appease the public outcry for "justice" - particularly with regard to heinous and horrific crimes - by knowingly withholding evidence, by knowingly railroading innocent people, and by all manner of other dishonourable tactics. I'm not saying that this is the case with KSM but, sadly, it is true that many law enforcement agencies have been guilty of deliberately seeking to convict innocent people knowing full well that the guilty parties are still at large.
[/off topic]

Oh, I agree. However, this administration, thus far, has shown very little to no desire to appease the public. I don't think they are under pressure to produce suspects; and I don't think they would care if they were. Most people are satisfied with Bush's post 9/11 performance insofar as protecting U.S. turf (we have not been attacked in 5.5 years). However, there is immense pressure on him to end the current war and several misguided policies, but he does not yield. That is why I think it is unlikely, even if he were under pressure to produce suspects, that he would do so in a fabricated fashion, assuming he is in control of such things.

[gumboot]

That is why I think it is unlikely, even if he were under pressure to produce suspects, that he would do so in a fabricated fashion, assuming he is in control of such things.


One thing I've always been curious about is the level of knowledge in a big country like the USA.

I mean, does Bush get a phone call one night...

CIA AGENT: Sir, the Pakistanis have captured KSM, they're gonna hand him over, what should we do with him?

BUSH: Well gee, I think we should extradite him to one of our secret CIA camps and torture the [rule8] out of him. After we've done that for a while move him to Gitmo and we'll put him through a show trial.

CIA AGENT: Yes sir!

Or is it more a case of:

AIDE: Sir, we've captured KSM. He's being held in a secure place. You'll be talking to the press in fifteen minutes. Keep it short. Smile a lot.

BUSH: How was he capture? Where? Are we going to put him on trial?

AIDE: Don't worry about all that sir. All in good time.

BUSH: Good work.

For things like this, at what level are decisions made? At what level do people stop deciding what will happen, and simply get informed that it is happening?

President? VP? Director of the CIA?

I guess I'll never know until a former President joins the JREF... :p

-Gumboot

[beachnut]

It was the fat Sheikh Mohammed! And anyway, the BBC has a video of him wiping his butt with his left hand, when everybody knows he's right-handed!Islamic joke? The noble hand does not wipe the butt. PBUH

[gumboot]

CNN now has a PDF transcript of the hearing.

There's one bit that leaps out at me as being odd.

The President of the hearing states that, should they determine he is not an enemy combatant, he will be returned to his home country.

WTF?

If he's not an enemy combatant he's still a criminal wanted for numerous counts of terrorism dating back years.

If nothing else, he has been indicted in the Southern District of the state of New York for Operation Bojinka.

-Gumboot

[Rrramon]

They obviously tortured him into it.

Exactly. It makes you think about shermer/many other skeptics' question: "What evidence could possibly surface to make you accept evolution?"

The same could/should be asked of 9/11 truthers.

If you don't have an answer, chances are you are probably crazy.

[Schmitt.]

I'm not sure what the legal status of a "combatant status review hearing" is in the United States, but I think the only thing that could be more significant is if he confessed openly in court.They were a response to a SCOTUS finding that the treatment of detainees was unlawful under the Geneva protocols. To fulfill one of the problems, the CSR are used to determine whether a detainee is a POW or illegal enemy combatant. They are unchallenged as of yet.

[The Doc]

Terrorcell @ LC Forms

This, the BBC clip of WTC7, Pentacon......

I'm not all that surprised this pops up out there.

Yes Terrorcell. The US government saw the Pentacon and freaked out - so they decided to get KSM to admit to 9/11. Everybody saw the Pentacon and this must have created some serious political pressure on the US to provide more evidence against the conspiracy theorists..... riiight. What are you, stupid?

I'm sure your movie has had a huge impact on everybody. Oh what's that? It only has 19,000 views? Bad luck...

[Unfit4Command]

That's the same picture of Sheikh Mohammed I saw when they captured him over 3 years ago! He's probably already dead and this is all just a lie! I demand a tape of the confession so I can find what's wrong with it and prove that the government is lying.

[Oliver]

That's the same picture of Sheikh Mohammed I saw when they captured him over 3 years ago! He's probably already dead and this is all just a lie! I demand a tape of the confession so I can find what's wrong with it and prove that the government is lying.


♫...Sooomewheeeree over the rainbow...♫

:p

[Arus808]

Yes Terrorcell. The US government saw the Pentacon and freaked out - so they decided to get KSM to admit to 9/11. Everybody saw the Pentacon and this must have created some serious political pressure on the US to provide more evidence against the conspiracy theorists..... riiight. What are you, stupid?

I'm sure your movie has had a huge impact on everybody. Oh what's that? It only has 19,000 views? Bad luck...


also forget the fact that the government was announcing that hearings for the Guantanomo Bay prisoners were announced months ago, and were scheduled for march.

[R.Mackey]

No, I don't think so.
But why's everybody get so excited when a terrorist confesses?
They are not, after all, considered to be the most honest and truthful people.
9/11 was a HUGE event. If I were a terrorist, I'd want to take credit for that, too. Especially if the US is bound and determined to have it pinned on me in the first place.

Of course, if the preponderence of other evidence points in his direction, then he's probably guilty...
This is the key point.

Testimony is evidence, but it is not proof, regardless of whether or not the man was tortured. (Personally, I find the very idea that anyone in this country even contemplates torture is disgusting, barbaric, and ultimately counterproductive, but that's a topic for the Politics forum.) The testimony is only significant if it can be verified against the larger body of evidence.

However, having read the 9/11 Commission Report, I'm sure it can. It may also corroborate many more sources of information that we don't have full access to.

It may also explain other evidence that previously wasn't understood or considered to be mere anomalies. That would make it valuable, even significant if that leads to new discoveries.

As far as convincing the Troothers, who cares? They've already demonstrated that they can't be reasoned with. This trial, in case nobody noticed, is not being held for their benefit.

[Unfit4Command]

Wait...I forgot that all terrorists are government agents. So, Guantanamo Bay is probably just a luxury hotel for all of our CIA agents to chill at. At least that's what makes sense...I don't see why our own agents would be put through Guantanamo Bay if it's really how the media portrays it. Doesn't that make sense? The torture scandals there are probably just to distract the people from finding out the Truth about all of the government-sponsored terrorism.

That makes sense, right?

[jhunter1163]

I'm sure your movie has had a huge impact on everybody. Oh what's that? It only has 19,000 views? Bad luck...

And a significant fraction of those views are probably JREFers looking to tear it to shreds.

[LashL]

And a significant fraction of those views are probably JREFers looking to tear it to shreds.

And a very significant fraction of those views are probably the 40 active members of the LCF clicking on it several hundred times each to artificially inflate the numbers, since that's what they do best.

[gumboot]

They were a response to a SCOTUS finding that the treatment of detainees was unlawful under the Geneva protocols. To fulfill one of the problems, the CSR are used to determine whether a detainee is a POW or illegal enemy combatant. They are unchallenged as of yet.


I was under the impression that the SCOTUS finding was that the US Government couldn't circumvent the law by inventing their own military court to try the detainees in.

The CSRs are a requirement under the Geneva Conventions.

What I meant was, if someone confesses to something in a CSR, does that testimony have more or less weight than confessing during an interrogation, and does it have more or less weight than confessing during a trial?

Any lawyers?

-Gumboot

[ref]

This is also once again a reminder, that we actually have the real hijackers identified. CT's bring this up all the time, like there is no evidence and their identities are somehow in doubt.


d. A computer hard drive seized during the capture of the detainee contained information about the four airplanes hijacked on 1 1 September 2001 including code names, airline company, flight number, target, pilot name and background information, and names of the hijackers.

e. A computer hard drive seized during the capture of the detainee contained photographs of 19 individuals identified as the 11 September 2001 hijackers.

f. A computer hard drive seized during the capture of the detainee contained a document that listed the pilot license fees for Mohammad Atta and biographies for some of the 11 September 2001 hijackers.

g. A computer hard drive seized during the capture of the detainee contained images of passports and an image of Mohammad Atta.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/ISN10024.pdf

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Fixed that for ya. :cool:

The sooner he's silenced, the better, right? We can't have him doing a Terry Nichols on us, and later speaking from his jail cell about the government involvement in the plot.

[eddyk]

Maybe he didn't really plan them...and just wanted his name written in history.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

At the risk of sounding like a CTist...

It's frigging Guantanamo Bay. OF COURSE he was tortured! Just because he didn't confess under torture, doesn't mean that he wasn't tortured to confess.

Also:


It sounds like he's confessing to anything and everything.
Confessions don't hold a lot of weight with me.

He didn't, by chance, happen to confess to killing Vince Foster, did he?

[JimBenArm]

One thing I've always been curious about is the level of knowledge in a big country like the USA.

I mean, does Bush get a phone call one night...

CIA AGENT: Sir, the Pakistanis have captured KSM, they're gonna hand him over, what should we do with him?

BUSH: Well gee, I think we should extradite him to one of our secret CIA camps and torture the [rule8] out of him. After we've done that for a while move him to Gitmo and we'll put him through a show trial.

CIA AGENT: Yes sir!

Or is it more a case of:

AIDE: Sir, we've captured KSM. He's being held in a secure place. You'll be talking to the press in fifteen minutes. Keep it short. Smile a lot.

BUSH: How was he capture? Where? Are we going to put him on trial?

AIDE: Don't worry about all that sir. All in good time.

BUSH: Good work.

For things like this, at what level are decisions made? At what level do people stop deciding what will happen, and simply get informed that it is happening?

President? VP? Director of the CIA?

I guess I'll never know until a former President joins the JREF... :p

-Gumboot
That varies by administration. Some Presidents, like Carter, were notorious micromanagers. Others, like Reagan, were totally hands-off.
Overall, the hands-off aproach is better, IMHO, because you let the experts do what you pay them to do. But I will (sort of) defend Carter. His Naval training was as a Nuke, and the nuclear program trained people to micro-manage everything. No one could be trusted to do their job unless an officer was breathing down their necks to make sure it was done right. I'm sure this carried over into his leadership style in the White House.

[gumboot]

That varies by administration. Some Presidents, like Carter, were notorious micromanagers. Others, like Reagan, were totally hands-off.
Overall, the hands-off aproach is better, IMHO, because you let the experts do what you pay them to do. But I will (sort of) defend Carter. His Naval training was as a Nuke, and the nuclear program trained people to micro-manage everything. No one could be trusted to do their job unless an officer was breathing down their necks to make sure it was done right. I'm sure this carried over into his leadership style in the White House.


Evenso, when you say "micromanage" what are we talking? Does a micromanaging President take an active role in the activities of EVERY SINGLE until in the entire Armed Forces and every single suspect in every single national-level investigation?

I'm not necessarily claiming a President wouldn't want to do that, but I would propose it's actually physically impossible, based on our current understanding of time and space. :)

-Gumboot

[TK0001]

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=90582

Took all of one response to get the predicted reply.

Permission to silently stew over the notion that a portion of the American population now considers mass murdering terrorists "the good guys"?

[JAStewart]

Hah, its all over the news and will be all over the papers.

Lets hope this kills any CT's.

It wont.

[busherie]

Guantanamo Center: unanimously recognised by the UN, Amnesty international to be a major torture center, a shame for the US and Democracy.

If you keep me 5 years in there, I'll also tell you I killed JFK, and I planned the Pearl Harbour attacks....

No seriously, that's a blow for MIHOP theories, but not for LIHOP. Moreover, he confessed being responsible for dozens of attacks etc...

Even if what he says is true (and I believe he played a role in the 9/11) the US has the worse communication strategy ever planned!!:confused:

They could have "pretended" he had a lawyer, or that he has not been tortured. Why not let him defend himself.

Lastly, I love how the US says:

" Al Qaida is responsible for all terrorist attacks!"
" KSM did it from A to Z"

The simplistic vision of the world explains how they screwed (they being mainly the neocons, not Americans in general) up almost everything they had planned. From Somalia to Pakistan, and also Afg, IQ...

Loosers

Busherie

[gumboot]

Guantanamo Center: unanimously recognised by the UN, Amnesty international to be a major torture center, a shame for the US and Democracy.

If you keep me 5 years in there, I'll also tell you I killed JFK, and I planned the Pearl Harbour attacks....

No seriously, that's a blow for MIHOP theories, but not for LIHOP. Moreover, he confessed being responsible for dozens of attacks etc...

Even if what he says is true (and I believe he played a role in the 9/11) the US has the worse communication strategy ever planned!!:confused:

They could have "pretended" he had a lawyer, or that he has not been tortured. Why not let him defend himself.

Lastly, I love how the US says:

" Al Qaida is responsible for all terrorist attacks!"
" KSM did it from A to Z"

The simplistic vision of the world explains how they screwed (they being mainly the neocons, not Americans in general) up almost everything they had planned. From Somalia to Pakistan, and also Afg, IQ...

Loosers

Busherie



Have you read the transcript of the hearing? Do you know what it was for?

Don't worry about answering those questions. Your comments above indicate the answer is no for both.

-Gumboot

[Juustin]

A girl I went to high school with but haven't really known since added me on myspace a while back. Still a nice enough girl it seems, but has totally fallen in with the woo/twoofer crowd.

So when stuff like this happens, I know as soon as I check my myspace account, I'll have a bulletin explaining it.

And of course, I got one. They always seem to be copied 50 times, and are always a link to either prison planet or infowars, etc. Everyone here was 100% spot on: This is obviously just part of the Zionist Conspiracy. (Actual Words)

[stateofgrace]

Guantanamo Center: unanimously recognised by the UN, Amnesty international to be a major torture center, a shame for the US and Democracy.

If you keep me 5 years in there, I'll also tell you I killed JFK, and I planned the Pearl Harbour attacks....

No seriously, that's a blow for MIHOP theories, but not for LIHOP. Moreover, he confessed being responsible for dozens of attacks etc...

Even if what he says is true (and I believe he played a role in the 9/11) the US has the worse communication strategy ever planned!!:confused:

They could have "pretended" he had a lawyer, or that he has not been tortured. Why not let him defend himself.

Lastly, I love how the US says:

" Al Qaida is responsible for all terrorist attacks!"
" KSM did it from A to Z"

The simplistic vision of the world explains how they screwed (they being mainly the neocons, not Americans in general) up almost everything they had planned. From Somalia to Pakistan, and also Afg, IQ...

Loosers

Busherie

I pity you, seriously. Your petty little world has been taken apart. Your childish insults are now simply waves against the shore.
You have lost, your ridiculous movement has hit a brick wall of fact and evidence.

Welcome to history, you are the part that everybody laughs at, the part that everybody says “Hey remember those nutcases who thought it was all an inside job, snigger, snigger"

Keep dreaming, keep spinning. Oh while you are at it why don't you set up a committee to have him released, take to the streets and tell everybody he is innocent and really a good guy. Me? I personally could not care less what happens to this miserable creature. He is a murderer, a cold bloodied, callous mass murderer, of your fellow countrymen.

Go ahead and defend him, I defy you to; I call you and your petty movement out. Show the world your true self, show how you prefer to defend self confessed mass murderers. This movement has already shown it will sink to untold limits to promote its garbage. So I'm sure sinking even lower will be no problem for you.Truth seeker? Don't make me laugh , you neither seek nor care for the truth.

[Davidjayjordan]

Let see after six years of torture and brain washing, we are to believe he did almost every terrorist act in the 2000's.

No wonder true skeptics doubt this ..... and false skeptics believe his confession. The false skeptics want to, and it makes their life more comforatble in what they deem a benign government that loves them.

[stateofgrace]

Let see after six years of torture and brain washing, we are to believe he did almost every terrorist act in the 2000's.

No wonder true skeptics doubt this ..... and false skeptics believe his confession. The false skeptics want to, and it makes their life more comforatble in what they deem a benign government that loves them.

So he’s innocent then?

[busherie]

So he’s innocent then?

After all these years, you still believe there are many serious truthers who believe that Al Qaida had nothing to do with 9/11... I wonder in which world YOU live in.

Don't you see this guy's confessions come at a very precise time: when 9/11 has gotten to a next scale?

Obviously the neocons still have two shots: getting or killing OBL, witnessing, allowing ot happen, or staging a new attack in the US.

Is KSM innocent? I think he has something to do with 9/11.

But you're so blind and forgetful of what democracy is:
NO TORTURE, DECENT TRIAL!

How can you forget this?

Wether he's guilty or innocent is as important as basic rules of democracy.

I don't know how much rage you have inside to be so blind and don't even realize that a confessions after spending five years is nothing. I could have written his myself.

So shut down guantanamo, give the suspects a decent trial.

Then you will be able to claim any victory.



Busherie

[Firestone]

:rolleyes:

My NWO-clearance isn't high enough to know whether Khalid Al-Sheikh Mohammed was tortured or not.

But as has been pointed out before, he confessed to his role in the 9/11-attacks before his arrest. Read here (http://www.tbsjournal.com/Archives/Fall02/Fouda.html) ...
I'm quite sure Khalid Al-Sheikh Mohammed wasn't tortured by Al-Jazeera reporter Yosri Fouda.

[Arus808]

after all this time, you also forgot that he confessed LONG before his capture (back in april 2002) he wasn't captured until September 2002

so, I wonder how we were torturing him in april.

[JimBenArm]

after all this time, you also forgot that he confessed LONG before his capture (back in april 2002) he wasn't captured until September 2002

so, I wonder how we were torturing him in april.
Probably made him read some of busherie's lunacies!

[busherie]

after all this time, you also forgot that he confessed LONG before his capture (back in april 2002) he wasn't captured until September 2002

so, I wonder how we were torturing him in april.

You don't understand. I'm not saying he's guilty or innocent, I'm saying his confessions are worthless, by nature, since he was not given a decent trial, and was tortured.

:rolleyes:

My NWO-clearance isn't high enough to know whether Khalid Al-Sheikh Mohammed was tortured or not.

But as has been pointed out before, he confessed to his role in the 9/11-attacks before his arrest. Read here (http://www.tbsjournal.com/Archives/Fall02/Fouda.html) ...
I'm quite sure Khalid Al-Sheikh Mohammed wasn't tortured by Al-Jazeera reporter Yosri Fouda.

Can anybody on this forum claim that what takes place in Guantanamo is not torture?

http://info.rsr.ch/xobix_media/images/keystone/2007/keyimg20070315_7622187_0.jpg

Oh no, he's just tired on the picture. Must be jetlag.

_____________

[Jennie C.]

I pity you, seriously. Your petty little world has been taken apart. Your childish insults are now simply waves against the shore.
You have lost, your ridiculous movement has hit a brick wall of fact and evidence.

Welcome to history, you are the part that everybody laughs at, the part that everybody says “Hey remember those nutcases who thought it was all an inside job, snigger, snigger"

Keep dreaming, keep spinning. Oh while you are at it why don't you set up a committee to have him released, take to the streets and tell everybody he is innocent and really a good guy. Me? I personally could not care less what happens to this miserable creature. He is a murderer, a cold bloodied, callous mass murderer, of your fellow countrymen.

Go ahead and defend him, I defy you to; I call you and your petty movement out. Show the world your true self, show how you prefer to defend self confessed mass murderers. This movement has already shown it will sink to untold limits to promote its garbage. So I'm sure sinking even lower will be no problem for you.Truth seeker? Don't make me laugh , you neither seek nor care for the truth.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Thanks SoG. Needed to be said. And you did a better job than I woulda

[Jennie C.]

Can anybody on this forum claim that what takes place in Guantanamo is not torture?

http://info.rsr.ch/xobix_media/image..._7622187_0.jpg (http://info.rsr.ch/xobix_media/images/keystone/2007/keyimg20070315_7622187_0.jpg)


That picture is from when he was captured in 2002, not from yesterday, or whenever the transcript was released.

[JimBenArm]

You don't understand. I'm not saying he's guilty or innocent, I'm saying his confessions are worthless, by nature, since he was not given a decent trial, and was tortured.



Can anybody on this forum claim that what takes place in Guantanamo is not torture?

http://info.rsr.ch/xobix_media/images/keystone/2007/keyimg20070315_7622187_0.jpg

Oh no, he's just tired on the picture. Must be jetlag.

_____________

Ah, yes. You can tell he was tortured from looking at that picture. And everyone is tortured in Gitmo, nonstop! We have to ship in extra people to do it. Heck, we even sub-contracted to Halliburton to supply extra manpower so we could keep it going!
Do you have any real, live proof of this, or just more inane statements?
Yeah, didn't think so.
Loser!

[busherie]

Ok, you read that then you can honestly discuss these issues.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866&page=1

(if you want other sources, i can give you UN, Amnesty internatioanl reports)

One question: do you not know the US government has been using torture in its war against terrorism on a pre-planned, large and systematic scale?


I'm amazed... We're discussing 9/11, but that doesn't mean you must close your eyes on everything that has happened since then!

Busherie

[stateofgrace]

After all these years, you still believe there are many serious truthers who believe that Al Qaida had nothing to do with 9/11... I wonder in which world YOU live in.
You wonder what world I live in, why thank you for asking. It is one of reality, one whereby facts and evidence actually count for something. It is one whereby knowledge is acquired from history books and not conspiracy web sites.

Don't you see this guy's confessions come at a very precise time: when 9/11 has gotten to a next scale?

And what scale is this? One whereby it is being closed off lay to rest and the culprits are put in their rightful place? In jail rotting away?

Obviously the neocons still have two shots: getting or killing OBL, witnessing, allowing ot happen, or staging a new attack in the US.

Obviously? Got any form of proof of this obviousness? Or just more gut feeling?

Is KSM innocent? I think he has something to do with 9/11.

You think? I take you have actually read his confession, read the testimony from the 20th hijackers trial?

But you're so blind and forgetful of what democracy is:
NO TORTURE, DECENT TRIAL!

Blind? How is this? Because I refuse to agree with your insane theories about Americans committing mass murder against there own?

How can you forget this?

No you forgot this. You have forgotten that somebody declared war on you back in the 90’s. You forget that this war was brought to you country and took 3000 innocent lives.
Like you also forgot that 40% of all terrorist acts were against US person or interesting during the 90’s.
It’s all so nice to forget all this isn’t it? To forget that this man has confessed to heinous crimes against your fellow country men.

Wether he's guilty or innocent is as important as basic rules of democracy.

Is it really? Then just spell it all out for me. Tell me how the future of democracy hinges on the fate of mass murderer.
Your insane fantasies hinge on it, my friend. You fantasies that are now coming crashing down.

I don't know how much rage you have inside to be so blind and don't even realize that a confessions after spending five years is nothing. I could have written his myself.

I have no rage; the only person blowing off is you as you silly theories come crashing down

So shut down guantanamo, give the suspects a decent trial.


This is not about shutting down Guantanamo is it? It is a get out clause for your form of escapism. A way of keeping you fantasies alive. Sad, really, that you would now choose to side with a self confessed mass murderer.
Then you will be able to claim any victory.

It’s not about victories, it about the truth, bringing to justice evil individuals who callously murder innocent people. Don’t let that worry you though, keep pretending you care all about democracy and you care all about human rights, when the reality is you have done nothing but promote insane theories about a terrorist attack.

Maybe you should actually talk to Al Qaeda and ask them all about your human rights and how they care for you.

After all you now seem to support them.

[firecoins]

Theses guys weren't waterboarded, they were forced to watch Loose Change, both of them, over and over again. This wasn't a confession as much as it was an attempt to stop the truther stupidity.

[busherie]

No you forgot this. You have forgotten that somebody declared war on you back in the 90’s. You forget that this war was brought to you country and took 3000 innocent lives.

Maybe you should actually talk to Al Qaeda and ask them all about your human rights and how they care for you.

After all you now seem to support them.

How many lives do the US want to get their "revenge"? 3000? 5000? 100000? 1 000 000?

Al Qaida, or "terrorists" in general, make me sick. The murder of innocent people, wether they're Amrican, European, Iraqi, must be condemned.

Torturing, occupying countries, colonizing land (Israel Palestine), not worrying about "collateral damage", using cluster bombs, which now claim one innocent live a day in Lebanon, must be condemned as well.

This is not about defending terrorists. I live in France. Algerian terroris groups have killed dozens of French people in the 90's. I know how they behave.

But (and I'm getting way too political here) Democracy, human rights is what makes us different from them. We must never use ther techniques, otherwise we are like them. We lose our souls.

Busherie

[Loss Leader]

Can anybody on this forum claim that what takes place in Guantanamo is not torture?

http://info.rsr.ch/xobix_media/images/keystone/2007/keyimg20070315_7622187_0.jpg

Oh no, he's just tired on the picture. Must be jetlag.



There's a lot that I don't like about Gitmo, but your claim that this picture was from after KSM's internment shows that you have absolutely no grasp of even the most basic facts regarding 9/11 or the subsequent US military campaigns.

[negativ]

Let see after six years of torture and brain washing, we are to believe he did almost every terrorist act in the 2000's.

No wonder true skeptics doubt this ..... and false skeptics believe his confession. The false skeptics want to, and it makes their life more comforatble in what they deem a benign government that loves them.

How about actually reading the transcript (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/pdf/ksmgitmo.pdf), then come back and tell us he sounds like a broken and brainwashed innocent victim. Maybe start on page 20. The funny thing is he almost sounds like a stereotypical truther in a couple of places.

[busherie]

"There's a lot that I don't like about Gitmo, but your claim that this picture was from after KSM's internment shows that you have absolutely no grasp of even the most basic facts regarding 9/11 or the subsequent US military campaigns."

Well, ok.

Then he completely missed his morning make up then

[firecoins]

Give it up Bushrei. KSM admitted to 9/11 before ever being in US custody. OBL admitted to being behind the attack and still isn't in US custody. OBL declared war on the US years before 9/11 even happaned.

Torture or no tortue at Gitmo, KSM & OBL were behind 9/11. If you believe otherwise, present evidence.

[negativ]

You don't understand. I'm not saying he's guilty or innocent, I'm saying his confessions are worthless, by nature, since he was not given a decent trial, and was tortured.



Can anybody on this forum claim that what takes place in Guantanamo is not torture?

http://info.rsr.ch/xobix_media/images/keystone/2007/keyimg20070315_7622187_0.jpg

Oh no, he's just tired on the picture. Must be jetlag.

_____________

The photo you link was taken when he was captured, long before he'd even been interrogated. If you want to use that photo as evidence of torture, you'll at least be asked to concede that malnutrition wasn't one of the techniques being used....

[stateofgrace]

How many lives do the US want to get their "revenge"? 3000? 5000? 100000? 1 000 000?

It is not about revenge, it is about disastrous foreign policies after 911. So stop pretending because I don't agree with your inside job theories I support the death of a single innocent person I do not.

Al Qaida, or "terrorists" in general, make me sick. The murder of innocent people, wether they're Amrican, European, Iraqi, must be condemned.

Torturing, occupying countries, colonizing land (Israel Palestine), not worrying about "collateral damage", using cluster bombs, which now claim one innocent live a day in Lebanon, must be condemned as well.

This is not about defending terrorists. I live in France. Algerian terroris groups have killed dozens of French people in the 90's. I know how they behave.


I agree.


But (and I'm getting way too political here) Democracy, human rights is what makes us different from them. We must never use ther techniques, otherwise we are like them. We lose our souls.


Nice thought but in principle but there is mileage in the saying "fighting fire with fire".
I do not agree with the war on terror but at some point a line needs to drawn. A stand has to be taken. It is not about selling your soul it is about trying to do the right thing.
I have and will always support basic human rights and despise there abuses. I hate violence I condemn totally the percussion of innocent people but this guy is not innocent. He is a mass murderer. He has lost whatever right he had to even be called a human being.

Please stop trying to use the human rights angle to dismiss what he as said and address what he has said.

Stop trying to look for excuses to simply push it to one side. You have two options, accept it or reject it. Your call.

Do you really seek the truth ? Really seek it?

[busherie]

The photo you link was taken when he was captured, long before he'd even been interrogated. If you want to use that photo as evidence of torture, you'll at least be asked to concede that malnutrition wasn't one of the techniques being used....

I agree about this... The guy's not thin :)

[The Demon's Head]

After all these years, you still believe there are many serious truthers who believe that Al Qaida had nothing to do with 9/11... I wonder in which world YOU live in.

Don't you see this guy's confessions come at a very precise time: when 9/11 has gotten to a next scale?

Obviously the neocons still have two shots: getting or killing OBL, witnessing, allowing ot happen, or staging a new attack in the US.

Is KSM innocent? I think he has something to do with 9/11.

But you're so blind and forgetful of what democracy is:
NO TORTURE, DECENT TRIAL!

How can you forget this?

Wether he's guilty or innocent is as important as basic rules of democracy.

I don't know how much rage you have inside to be so blind and don't even realize that a confessions after spending five years is nothing. I could have written his myself.

So shut down guantanamo, give the suspects a decent trial.

Then you will be able to claim any victory.



Busherie

Guantanamo can not be shutdown and not all the suspects can be given a trial. Moussaoui's trial is an example of this. To put all the suspects on trial would have each trial lasting a few years. Look how long it took for Moussaoui to recieve his sentence.

[pagan]

Key 9/11 suspect confesses guilt



Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind behind the 11 September attacks, has admitted responsibility, a court transcript says.

"I was responsible for the 9/11 Operation, from A to Z," he said.
He also reportedly confessed to planning 29 acts of terrorism, including plans to attack Big Ben and Heathrow airport in London....

Full Story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6452573.stm



He did? He is lying. I was responsible for 911. Osama directed me from his ultra hi-tech cave in Afghanistan.
I was the one who sneeked into the towers and planted the explosives. I made the standown of the US airforce possible.

[Lurker]

Let see after six years of torture and brain washing, we are to believe he did almost every terrorist act in the 2000's.

No wonder true skeptics doubt this ..... and false skeptics believe his confession. The false skeptics want to, and it makes their life more comforatble in what they deem a benign government that loves them.

Freakin A! You have no idea how many terrorist acts occurred in the 2000's, do you? He claimed a few, not even a majority so quit with your theatrics.

Lurker

[busherie]

I have and will always support basic human rights and despise there abuses. I hate violence I condemn totally the percussion of innocent people but this guy is not innocent. He is a mass murderer. He has lost whatever right he had to even be called a human being.

Please stop trying to use the human rights angle to dismiss what he as said and address what he has said.

Stop trying to look for excuses to simply push it to one side. You have two options, accept it or reject it. Your call.

Do you really seek the truth ? Really seek it?

I do seek the truth. And let me tell you that debating on this forum has always been interesting. Actually, I've changed my mind on a lot of points: F77, WTC 1 and 2 (not 7 yet) etc.. On other points, like WTC7 and especially Mineta, I stand firm. The truth is not known yet.

On KSM, the fact that he is a mass murderer does not deprive him of his human rights. This is where we do not agree. That is what makes democracy stronger than other regimes, and morally superior.

[The Demon's Head]

If there were USG invovlement in the attacks, wouldn't KSM expose those who were invovled? He probably would.

KSM would want to cause further harm to the USG, so he would expose the USG officials/agents that would have been invovled.

[Loss Leader]

Guantanamo can not be shutdown and not all the suspects can be given a trial. Moussaoui's trial is an example of this. To put all the suspects on trial would have each trial lasting a few years. Look how long it took for Moussaoui to recieve his sentence.

Considering that they've been held for five years without a trial, I'm not sure why there would be an objection because trials take too long.

I firmly believe that the confinement without trial of all suspects held by the US here and abroad is immoral and unconstitutional.

Busherie still has no idea what he's talking about, though.

[The Demon's Head]

Not all of the suspects held at Gauntanamo can be given lawyers and a trial. However, there are a few who really wish that those be given a fair trail. It just won't happen though.

As I said in my earlier post in this thread, KSM's confession sort of debunks the inside job theory. If USG officials/agents were invovled in the planning and executing of the attacks, KSM surely would have exposed those invovled. What would KSM have to gain or lose if he did expose or didn't expose those invovled? Nothing to gain or lose. KSM was the mastermind of the entire operation, so he would certainly know who was invovled.

[stateofgrace]

I do seek the truth. And let me tell you that debating on this forum has always been interesting. Actually, I've changed my mind on a lot of points: F77, WTC 1 and 2 (not 7 yet) etc.. On other points, like WTC7 and especially Mineta, I stand firm. The truth is not known yet.

On KSM, the fact that he is a mass murderer does not deprive him of his human rights. This is where we do not agree. That is what makes democracy stronger than other regimes, and morally superior.

I agree with you that human rights are sacred but this guy is not up for avoiding paying a speeding fine. He is accused and has confessed to the most horrendous crime imaginable. He planned the mass murder of innocent men, women and children. He did so of his own free will; nobody forced him to do such think. He is not a victim; he is a perpetrator, a perpetrator of a dreadful callous act.

He choose to deny the victims of these dreadful actions the very thing that you believe he is entitled to. His human rights. Yet he denied 3000 people this very right, he denied them the right to the one thing we are all entitled to, life itself.

The line I talked about earlier is directed towards individuals like this, there has to be a deterrent to future such acts. So if this person is made an example of, is slung in jail for the rest of his miserable life, so be it. This is not about taking the moral high ground nor the fact that just because we are a democracy we cannot fight back against international terrorism. We as a democracy are strong because we allow a free press, we allow freedom of speech and we up hold the principles of human rights. Our greatest strengths can sometimes become our greatest weaknesses. These perceived weaknesses can be exploited by those who wish to attack us and kill us.

Any perception there maybe that his human rights have been abused are IMO moot because he has chosen this path, he is responsible for his own actions. He as confessed to mass murder.

This is not to say he should not be treated with some level civility because this is what we are,a civilised society. We try to treat those who disagree with us with some level of respect and allow them to voice there objections. But a line must be drawn between an individual’s right to act how he pleases and the security of the rest.

My sympathies lie with those who he choose to execute; those who lost there loved ones. Not him.

[Axiom_Blade]

My sympathies lie with those who he choose to execute; those who lost there loved ones. Not him.

Stateofgrace, you are quite verbose. But doesn't "innocent until proven guilty" apply even to suspected terrorists? What is "weak" about respecting an accused person's human rights?

If or when they are found guilty, then they will be punished. In the meantime, they cannot hurt anyone while they are imprisoned. It sounds to me like you're out for revenge, not justice.

[rwguinn]

..... He is not a victim; he is a perpetrator, a perpetrator of a dreadful callous act.
....

Any perception there maybe that his human rights have been abused are IMO moot because he has chosen this path, he is responsible for his own actions. He as confessed to mass murder.

.

To carry this
He has, by his actions, stated as loudly and clearly as it is possible to state, that "The rules of civilization do not apply to me".
HE has withdrawn from society and civilization. He does not want, nor does he deserve, the protections the rest of us strive for.
Only those who cannot understand the reasons behind those protections, such as some who post here, think that a "Fair trial" will in any way mitigate the guilt of this thing.

[rwguinn]

Stateofgrace, you are quite verbose. But doesn't "innocent until proven guilty" apply even to suspected terrorists? What is "weak" about respecting an accused person's human rights?

If or when they are found guilty, then they will be punished. In the meantime, they cannot hurt anyone while they are imprisoned. It sounds to me like you're out for revenge, not justice.
HE has admitted guilt-uncoerced, freely--even bragged about it.
Trials are used to establish guilt or confirm innocence. (and BTW, "Not Guilty" is not the same as "innocnet")
The reason for a trial of someone "caught in the act" is to determine any mitigating factors, to help determine appropriate punishment

[GlennB]

Any perception there maybe that his human rights have been abused are IMO moot because he has chosen this path, he is responsible for his own actions. He as confessed to mass murder.


On this point my guts agree with you, but my head cannot.

He has confessed now. He might not have. Where would his rights to due process of law be then? Still in the gutter that is Guantanamo Bay, presumably.

[Axiom_Blade]

Trials are used to establish guilt or confirm innocence. (and BTW, "Not Guilty" is not the same as "innocnet")
The reason for a trial of someone "caught in the act" is to determine any mitigating factors, to help determine appropriate punishment

Yup! And it is the COURT that should decide the punishment, at the time of conviction, not some random soldier who wants to get their rocks off by torturing a terrorist.

That's how civilized people do things, anyway. Through evidence, in a lawful, and orderly manner.

[rwguinn]

Yup! And it is the COURT that should decide the punishment, at the time of conviction, not some random soldier who wants to get their rocks off by torturing a terrorist.

That's how civilized people do things, anyway. Through evidence, in a lawful, and orderly manner.

So, every gun-toting dude/dudette that our soldiers run across out there must be captured and held for trial? Even if he's shooting at our people?

No wonder we aren't winning the war on terror--our bleeding hearts value the lives of the enemy more than they do our soldiers.

[Rika]

No. We value the principles we were founded on - and if he's held in a miltary brig fine. He should still be treated under the Geneva Convention - and a fair trial in the civilian courts.

When we say "make the world safe for democracy" we mean that. And a fundamental feature of our democracy is "innocent until proven guility." and
"Liberty, justice and equality for all."

Even for murderers, we hold them to the law - the basis of a civilized society.

[WildCat]

Let see after six years of torture and brain washing, we are to believe he did almost every terrorist act in the 2000's.
Wow, 6 years of torture huh? So we were torturing him 6 months before 9/11, and 2 years before he was captured!

Such inattention to basic details, and you wonder why we make fun of troofers. :rolleyes:

[Loss Leader]

So, every gun-toting dude/dudette that our soldiers run across out there must be captured and held for trial? Even if he's shooting at our people?

No wonder we aren't winning the war on terror--our bleeding hearts value the lives of the enemy more than they do our soldiers.

Considering the fact that this is NOT the policy of the current US administration, it can't possibly play any part in why we aren't winning the war on terror.

However, you have created a strawman argument here in any case. No one argued that soldiers shouldn't defend themselves with lethal force when being shot at. The argument was that people who have already been captured on suspicion of terrorism should be afforded some due process rights.

[firecoins]

proof of Al Qeida's involvment
http://72.32.2.238/forumlive/showthread.php?t=77005&page=3

[WildCat]

No. We value the principles we were founded on - and if he's held in a miltary brig fine. He should still be treated under the Geneva Convention - and a fair trial in the civilian courts.
Uh, no. There are standards the Geneva Conventions set for protected persons. If those standards are met, then he is a POW (this is a legal term for enemies captured in a war who are protected persons). If not, then he is an unlawful combatant and can be subjected to a military tribunal.

There is no precedent whatsoever for unlawful combatants to be tried in civilian courts.

What the transcript is from is a hearing to determine his status, not a trial.

[Rika]

... Yes, I am aware that as a 'unlawful combatant' he has no rights under the Geneva Convention.

That's why I said.. should. If nothing else, it's symbolic.

[stateofgrace]

Stateofgrace, you are quite verbose. But doesn't "innocent until proven guilty" apply even to suspected terrorists? What is "weak" about respecting an accused person's human rights?

If or when they are found guilty, then they will be punished. In the meantime, they cannot hurt anyone while they are imprisoned. It sounds to me like you're out for revenge, not justice.

I wouldn't call it revenge although yes I would be the first to admit that individuals like this annoy me. It annoys me that anybody can take it upon themselves to plan and execute actions to further their own believes and causes that involve the deaths of innocent people. I suppose if I was to qualify my feeling on this matter it would be one of wishing for closure upon it all. To simply see this dreadful episode laid to rest and for people to move on from it. This will not happen so long as individuals like this are not punished.

I fully support the notion of innocent until proven guilty. This guy has confessed his guilt, he has not even denied his guilt, and if the evening news in the UK this evening is to be believed he is actually proud of his guilt. Had this been an individual that had been dragged off the street shouting and screaming his innocence then yes I would not be so quick to condemn but this appears not to be the case.

It would be better all round if he was brought before a Civilian court and tried correctly and I actually hope he is. I hope all the sordid horrible details of this mans involvement are dragged out and exposed before the world.

I would like to think and hope that this guy will be given due process but any process from here on in will simply be to decide his fate, whether that be the death sentence or life. Pretty similar to Moussaoui who confessed his involvement before hand I should imagine.

[Babbylonian]

So, every gun-toting dude/dudette that our soldiers run across out there must be captured and held for trial? Even if he's shooting at our people?

No wonder we aren't winning the war on terror--our bleeding hearts value the lives of the enemy more than they do our soldiers.
Okay, I'm not one to typically jump in on the side of terrorists ("duh"), but you're attempting to draw a connection between how we should deal with combatants in the field and how we should deal with combatants who are already prisoners. Such a connection is inappropriate and inflammatory.

If you can't agree that prisoners of the US military shouldn't be mistreated, then that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Don't, however, mistake a person's desire that we treat prisoners decently for being soft on the crimes they commit, or for desiring that they be treated decently while they're committing those crimes.

[Redtail]

So, what are he odds that a story will "leak" that he fingerd Bush and Co. and every CTer will believe it?

[Without Rights]

I thought Bin Laden did it.

That's when they wanted to attack Afganistan. Saddam had a hand in it to, when we wanted to attack Iraq.

Maybe they will find a connection with Ahmadinejad when it is Iran's turn.

Then we can start killing Venezuelians because they must be involved also.

You know what I would like to see, is the evidence that got this guy arrested in the first place. If it was nothing then we have a real reason to believe that his confessions were brought on by 5 torture filled years.

But of course the "skeptics" in here won't believe that our loving and righteous government would torture anybody. right?

[Pardalis]

Your simplistic worldview of a 5 year old is really depressing, Without rights.

[Rika]

That's when they wanted to attack Afganistan. Saddam had a hand in it to, when we wanted to attack Iraq.

Maybe they will find a connection with Ahmadinejad when it is Iran's turn.

Then we can start killing Venezuelians because they must be involved also.

You know what I would like to see, is the evidence that got this guy arrested in the first place. If it was nothing then we have a real reason to believe that his confessions were brought on by 5 torture filled years.

But of course the "skeptics" in here won't believe that our loving and righteous government would torture anybody. right?


Wow. Proof for any of the first.. 3 claims?

As for the last part - right. Loving? Righteous? Do you not look at the Politics board? Seriously, it's reasonably common knowledge that they use torture - so what are you saying? Trying to imply we're blind?

[WildCat]

... Yes, I am aware that as a 'unlawful combatant' he has no rights under the Geneva Convention.

That's why I said.. should. If nothing else, it's symbolic.
But doing so would mean there is public records of sources, methods, and means of how he was captured. Don't have it in front of me, but I think some sources were killed (or at least had their covers blown) as a result of the trials resulting from the WTC bombing in '93.

[Rika]

Ah. I didn't think of that. Okay, point conceded.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Let see after six years of torture and brain washing, we are to believe he did almost every terrorist act in the 2000's.
Ah, so... "true skeptics" believe that 2007 - 2003 = 6. :rolleyes:

[Without Rights]

Wow. Proof for any of the first.. 3 claims?

As for the last part - right. Loving? Righteous? Do you not look at the Politics board? Seriously, it's reasonably common knowledge that they use torture - so what are you saying? Trying to imply we're blind?

Any proof that they said Bin Laden was behind the attacks? Yes.
Proof they said Hussien was involved in the attacks? Yes.
The Iran and Venezuela? That is obviously speculation on my part, but I was pretty clear on that in the context of my statement.

The remainder was preemptive sarcasm. Preparing for the "skeptical" backlash.

Just a thought, do you think everything that is true can be proved?

[Without Rights]

Ah, so... "true skeptics" believe that 2007 - 2003 = 6. :rolleyes:

No, when talking to true skeptics you have to be presice. 4 years 14 days 6 hours 37 minutes. You don't think you are nitpicking a little bit because you don't agree do you?

[PhantomWolf]

Don't you love the way the CT mind works. If Cheny says or does something, heck is a US soldier in the middle of nowhere does something, it is Bush's fault, but when Osama's right hand man does something, ON OSAMA'S SAY SO AND ORDERS, OBL is innocent of it.

[Pardalis]

Proof they said Hussien was involved in the attacks? Yes.

Really? Show us.

[Arus808]

You don't understand. I'm not saying he's guilty or innocent, I'm saying his confessions are worthless, by nature, since he was not given a decent trial, and was tortured.

okay by what law?

if a man goes around telling everyone in the neighborhood that he murdered the babysitter that babysat his kids, but doesn't "Confess" to the police when he is arrested, but goes on to confess while he's in jail to await trial to his celmate, do you think this confession would be simply thrown out because he didn't do it in the presence of a judge and/or jury?

again, he confessed PRIOR to being captured.

[Panhead56]

While I find it quite probable, based on previous statements and other circumferential evidence, that he indeed is The (in not one of the) Mastemind behind 9-11, I'm a bit sceptical about the rest of his confessions. He may have lied about the rest for two (three) reasons:
1. If you are to go (hanged, eletrocuted or whatever you do over there) you might as well go down as the Biggest, Baddest terrorist of all time. He knows that he newer again will be a free man, so he might be inclined to boost his image, which is the only thing he has left.
2. He may confess to take the heat of other Al Quaida members who are still at large.
3. Unlikely, but possible, he's a nutcase that confesses to any thing.

[rwguinn]

Okay, I'm not one to typically jump in on the side of terrorists ("duh"), but you're attempting to draw a connection between how we should deal with combatants in the field and how we should deal with combatants who are already prisoners. Such a connection is inappropriate and inflammatory.
Nonsense. That waas never said by myself
But some folk seem to think that once captured, we should give combatants a tril. Bull stuff!
1. If they are common soldiers or officers, they have violated no laws, but must be held away from the combat zone. They cannot be set free to continue their duties.
2. If they are the general staff and higher, they can be tried for war crimes or crimes against humanity.

If you can't agree that prisoners of the US military shouldn't be mistreated, then that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Don't, however, mistake a person's desire that we treat prisoners decently for being soft on the crimes they commit, or for desiring that they be treated decently while they're committing those crimes.
Never said that torture was of ny use, desirable, or legal,. I destest it myself.
But being well-fed, dry, warm (or cool), and safe from getting shot at is not mistreatment, even if the TV is black and white, you have to do as you're told, and you can't leave.

[JAStewart]

No wonder we aren't winning the war on terror--our bleeding hearts value the lives of the enemy more than they do our soldiers.

You're an idiot to suggest that.

A big idiot.

Just because we care about human rights.

Enough politics in the CT forum!

[PhantomWolf]

While I find it quite probable, based on previous statements and other circumferential evidence, that he indeed is The (in not one of the) Mastemind behind 9-11, I'm a bit sceptical about the rest of his confessions. He may have lied about the rest for two (three) reasons:
1. If you are to go (hanged, eletrocuted or whatever you do over there) you might as well go down as the Biggest, Baddest terrorist of all time. He knows that he newer again will be a free man, so he might be inclined to boost his image, which is the only thing he has left.
2. He may confess to take the heat of other Al Quaida members who are still at large.
3. Unlikely, but possible, he's a nutcase that confesses to any thing.

My questions to this would be:

1) Why confess to things that weren't known about because they didn't come off?

2) Why miss such obvious Al Qaeda plots such as the Kenyan Embassy, The USS Cole, The US Army Barracks attack in Saudi and the Madrid Train Bombings?

[hellaeon]

This is a reasonable position. He could have been tortured to confess. We do not know. I wonder if the "A to Z" was his wording. That seems a little awkward, coming from Mohammed.

I agree, I always feel a little awkward talking about detainee's. Despite how I think they should be treated is not the way they should be treated according to laws. I kind of reason to myself that perhaps its a fair trade off?

....slithers away...

Edit

Did al Jazeera torture him into discussing his role in 9/11 and other terrorist plots 6 months prior to his capture?


good point...

[Babbylonian]

Nonsense. That waas never said by myself
Actually, you made the connection by responding to this
Yup! And it is the COURT that should decide the punishment, at the time of conviction, not some random soldier who wants to get their rocks off by torturing a terrorist.

That's how civilized people do things, anyway. Through evidence, in a lawful, and orderly manner.
with this
So, every gun-toting dude/dudette that our soldiers run across out there must be captured and held for trial? Even if he's shooting at our people?

No wonder we aren't winning the war on terror--our bleeding hearts value the lives of the enemy more than they do our soldiers.
THAT was the basis of my post (which was pretty easily discernible by remembering or re-reading your own words).


But some folk seem to think that once captured, we should give combatants a tril. Bull stuff!

1. If they are common soldiers or officers, they have violated no laws, but must be held away from the combat zone. They cannot be set free to continue their duties.
2. If they are the general staff and higher, they can be tried for war crimes or crimes against humanity.
In other words, you yourself are stating that they're entitled to trials and, potentially, eventual release - you're just quibbling about the timing.

What's going on now, however, has nothing to do with true "trials" but with attempting to determine the status of our current detainees. It's certainly possible that, amongst the true terrorists, there are people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time and were misidentified as "combatants." In that case, we do have a responsibility to verify that the people we're holding are not innocent civilians. Even if we proceed from the assumption that they ARE all being held for good reason, it's still useful to have documentation of it.

Keep in mind, too, that President Bush has said that this war will take a long time. We're holding these people on an indefinite basis (given the lack of definitive criteria as to when the "war" will be over), which makes it that much more important that we make sure we're not holding people without just cause.

Never said that torture was of ny use, desirable, or legal,. I destest it myself.
And I didn't say that you were in favor of torture, hence my use of the conditional "if." I'm glad to hear you say it in any case.

But being well-fed, dry, warm (or cool), and safe from getting shot at is not mistreatment, even if the TV is black and white, you have to do as you're told, and you can't leave.
Now, come on. While I thought it was blown out of proportion, there was well-publicized documentation of mistreatment of prisoners by the military at Abu Ghraib, for which people are now serving time (maybe the wrong people or maybe they shouldn't be alone - I don't know). And, if you read this (http://www.bioethics.net/journal/j_articles.php?aid=1140) and can't find anything that qualifies as at least "mistreatment" at Guantanamo then I don't know what else to say...

[hellaeon]

Let see after six years of torture and brain washing, we are to believe he did almost every terrorist act in the 2000's.

No wonder true skeptics doubt this ..... and false skeptics believe his confession. The false skeptics want to, and it makes their life more comforatble in what they deem a benign government that loves them.


The interesting part is people just cant fathom the kind of evil that others are willing to commit. This guy would have no issue killing you and everything you believe in. Aren't you a Jesus freak? Somehow in all the murder and torture this guy has given to people or ordered upon people is still a means to give him sympathy for his assumed torture.

No sympathy sorry.

[busherie]

As I said in my earlier post in this thread, KSM's confession sort of debunks the inside job theory. If USG officials/agents were invovled in the planning and executing of the attacks, KSM surely would have exposed those invovled.

If KSM was saying in his statement that the USG was somehow involved, you would never have heard his confession, my friend... ;)

__________

Overall, even though we have been talking a lot about politics recently, let me just say again that democracy never sells its basic principles for the sake of its security.

In fact it's the other way around. By showing its moral superiority, democracy always wins. If it fails to keep up with its moral standard, then it ends up in Empire - and defeat.

Who can deny that most of the actions undertaken by the neocons in the last five years have in fact promoted terrorism - and undermined the American democracy? Iraq effectively became the long feared terrorism breeding ground.

Just remember for a second, the wave of sympathy the whole world felt for the US after 9/11...

Seems such a long time ago... :boggled:

[PhantomWolf]

If KSM was saying in his statement that the USG was somehow involved, you would never have heard his confession, my friend... ;)

Got any evidence of that, other than your contention that it's true?

They did after all forget to edit out the part where he alleged that he'd be mistreated and tortured, and the parts where he was denoucing them for holding innocent people. I guess the chief truth censor forgot to black those bits out right?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

No, when talking to true skeptics you have to be presice. 4 years 14 days 6 hours 37 minutes. You don't think you are nitpicking a little bit because you don't agree do you?
Oh, yes... because DJJ's ignorance of KSM's capture date is nothing more than a petty disagreement that allows him to keep his self-attributed "true skeptic" label. :rolleyes:

[gumboot]

On KSM, the fact that he is a mass murderer does not deprive him of his human rights. This is where we do not agree. That is what makes democracy stronger than other regimes, and morally superior.


It may interest you that during the hearing KSM complained of mistreatment. Not torture, but mistreatment. The President of the hearing said they would investigate his allegations.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Update from CNN... according to additional material released by the Military, KSM also claims to have beheaded US Journalist Daniel Pearl.

-Gumboot

[A W Smith]

these are not soldiers from a sovereign foreign country we are talking about correct? These are individuals suspected of killing thousands on our soil by conspiring within a known worldwide terrorist organization. There are complications when you attempt to apply the 'speedy trial" doctrine to suspected terrorists. For the protection of thousands of innocent civilians you must move on limited evidence even if it is just a money trail, data found on a hard drive or even if they are implicated by other known terrorists by hearsay. You can not just release them after 48 hours if you don't have sufficient evidence to convict by trial. If i understand correctly there were many at Gitmo that were eventually released anyway. Do you not think it is prudent to risk inconveniencing of a few for the safety of thousands? With the exception of suicide bombers most terrorists are serial criminals. If they fail they will try again. We are not talking about bank robbers, home invasions, carjackings and the like. We are talking about an organization whose sole purpose to to murder as many of us as possible. Even in death. The idealists who would afford common rights to such terrorists alarms me. To me they left all their human rights at the door when they took their terrorist oath. People, Its them or us. We live in a very different age. I think some are forgetting "Never Forget'.

[A W Smith]

It may interest you that during the hearing KSM complained of mistreatment. Not torture, but mistreatment. The President of the hearing said they would investigate his allegations.

-Gumboot

let me guess.. He wasnt given an extra extra plush carpet to kneel on and face mecca while praying compared to other Gitmo detainees he outranked?

[beachnut]

If KSM was saying in his statement that the USG was somehow involved, you would never have heard his confession, my friend... ;)

__________

Overall, even though we have been talking a lot about politics recently, let me just say again that democracy never sells its basic principles for the sake of its security.

In fact it's the other way around. By showing its moral superiority, democracy always wins. If it fails to keep up with its moral standard, then it ends up in Empire - and defeat.

Who can deny that most of the actions undertaken by the neocons in the last five years have in fact promoted terrorism - and undermined the American democracy? Iraq effectively became the long feared terrorism breeding ground.

Just remember for a second, the wave of sympathy the whole world felt for the US after 9/11...

Seems such a long time ago... :boggled:
When will busherwoo have some facts to back up anything about 9/11. Yet another set of false statements and no facts. No sources, no comparisons etc.

Compared to Vietnam how much more terrorism was present in then compared to now? How effective are the Islamic terrorist compared to other terrorist or even combat troops?

Why would someone cover up for what ever KSM said? Either there are facts to back up his talk or it is just talk! You are just talk, and no facts.

[jsiv]

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed looks pretty chubby.

Is overfeeding a form of torture?

[pagan]

these are not soldiers from a sovereign foreign country we are talking about correct? These are individuals suspected of killing thousands on our soil by conspiring within a known worldwide terrorist organization. There are complications when you attempt to apply the 'speedy trial" doctrine to suspected terrorists. For the protection of thousands of innocent civilians you must move on limited evidence even if it is just a money trail, data found on a hard drive or even if they are implicated by other known terrorists by hearsay. You can not just release them after 48 hours if you don't have sufficient evidence to convict by trial. If i understand correctly there were many at Gitmo that were eventually released anyway. Do you not think it is prudent to risk inconveniencing of a few for the safety of thousands? With the exception of suicide bombers most terrorists are serial criminals. If they fail they will try again. We are not talking about bank robbers, home invasions, carjackings and the like. We are talking about an organization whose sole purpose to to murder as many of us as possible. Even in death. The idealists who would afford common rights to such terrorists alarms me. To me they left all their human rights at the door when they took their terrorist oath. People, Its them or us. We live in a very different age. I think some are forgetting "Never Forget'.


This was the worst crap I've read in a long time. You seem to have bought the whole war on terror concept. Don't you think that you at least should use a minimum of scepticism toward Dubya's silly stories?

Gullible to the extreme. Easily scared into accepting the Bush adm "full spectrum dominance" BS and their aggressive PNAC policy for the ME.

[pagan]

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed looks pretty chubby.

Is overfeeding a form of torture?


It certainly is, if he is fed with typical American junk food.

"Confess towelhead! or you will have to eat one more of our delicious hamburgers"

[gumboot]

For what it's worth...

During the hearing KSM presents a pre-prepared hand written (in Arabic and English) and typed catalogue of alleged abuses at the hands of the US, while in their custody.

What's important to note is he claims all of these abuses occured before he arrived at Guantanamo Bay.

In other words, he is claiming the CIA abused him, not the US Military.

Also, in case anyone is interested, the Al Qaeda training manuals teach that any Jihadist who is captured by the enemy should always claim they were tortured.

-Gumboot

[WildCat]

Update from CNN... according to additional material released by the Military, KSM also claims to have beheaded US Journalist Daniel Pearl.

-Gumboot
He's long been suspected in that.

[Pardalis]

It certainly is, if he is fed with typical American junk food.

T'as fait ton p'tit caca?

[gumboot]

He's long been suspected in that.


I know. They say he stated that they only had to look on the internet to see pictures of him holding Pearl's head.

But it's just another thing he has admitted to. It was redacted from the original transcript.

-Gumboot

[LashL]

Update from CNN... according to additional material released by the Military, KSM also claims to have beheaded US Journalist Daniel Pearl.

-Gumboot

Yes, that was part of the transcript (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/pdf/ksmgitmo.pdf) that was previously posted.

[firecoins]

There is a chance KSM exaggerated his claims about events other than 9/11.

[LashL]

I know. They say he stated that they only had to look on the internet to see pictures of him holding Pearl's head.

But it's just another thing he has admitted to. It was redacted from the original transcript.

-Gumboot

Yes, the transcript says that he personally beheaded Daniel Pearl and that photos on the internet show that to be the case. That was in the transcript that I read earlier today - is there an earlier more heavily redacted version of the transcript that you are referring to?

[A W Smith]

This was the worst crap I've read in a long time. You seem to have bought the whole war on terror concept. Don't you think that you at least should use a minimum of scepticism toward Dubya's silly stories?

Gullible to the extreme. Easily scared into accepting the Bush adm "full spectrum dominance" BS and their aggressive PNAC policy for the ME.


Know what? if they were imprisoned in their host countries for similar acts upon those host countries they would all have been dead a long time ago. And you wouldn't even be able to find their bodies.

[LashL]

There is a chance KSM exaggerated his claims about events other than 9/11.

Certainly there is. He may feel that it is better to go out as the biggest, baddest bad guy of all than just another run-of-the-mill bad guy. He may feel that by admitting to so many crimes, he will ensure several years' worth of legal wranglings, and thus, several more years of life. He may feel that by copping to so many crimes, he is protecting others. Etc. etc. Who knows?

There is much more to follow as a result of this, that's all that is certain, and it will take years to unfold.

[LashL]

Know what? if they were imprisoned in their host countries for similar acts upon those host countries they would all have been dead a long time ago. And you wouldn't even be able to find their bodies.

Indeed. But troofers typically have no moral compasses and no concept of reality. They blindly spout nonsense without pause to reflect upon what they are actually saying, and without pause to reflect upon the values that they are espousing. They just read other troofer sites and repeat the nonsense ad nauseum because they think that it helps their troofer cause. Of course, it does not.

[A W Smith]

Certainly there is. He may feel that it is better to go out as the biggest, baddest bad guy of all than just another run-of-the-mill bad guy. He may feel that by admitting to so many crimes, he will ensure several years' worth of legal wranglings, and thus, several more years of life. He may feel that by copping to so many crimes, he is protecting others. Etc. etc. Who knows?

There is much more to follow as a result of this, that's all that is certain, and it will take years to unfold.


Maybe in some twisted way he thinks many life sentences will give him almost eternal life!:D

[pagan]

I must profess embarrassment. After 5 years of 9/11 activism KSM’s confession today has brought my world crashing down. After years of paranoid conspiracy theories I must now accept the government’s word that this confession is the genuine bona fide article – the final smoking gun behind 9/11.
It is therefore out of respect for our legal system that I will reproduce KSM’s confession here:
I, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, being of sound mind and body, un-coerced through torture, and fully enjoying the legal representation and due process afforded me under the constitution of the United States of America, hereby confess to the following crimes associated with 9/11:
I confess that in the summer of 2001, I instituted the Visa Express Program in Saudi Arabia which allowed terrorists to enter the United States without even being interviewed by a consular officer. The Visa Express Program was ONLY instituted in Saudi Arabia, and no such privileges were extended to other US allies in Europe or the Middle East – ONLY Saudi Arabia, a country known to have a large population of Muslim fundamentalists hostile to the United States, and loyal to Osama Bin Laden.
I confess that when Consular representatives objected to this practice I posed as Richard Armitage (a member of the Project for the New American Century) and wrote a letter in his name defending the practice. Stating:
"Unfortunately, the information we have received from Foreign Terrorist Tracking Task Force so far has been insufficient to permit a consular officer to deny a visa. The information we have received states only that the FTTTF believes the applicants may pose a threat to national security."
When a top secret Pentagon program “Able Danger” got wind of known Al Qaeda terrorists residing in Florida, and learned that they were taking flight lessons, they quickly dispatched officers, including Lt. Col Anthony Shaffer, to meet with SOCOM in Florida. I confess that I posed as an ‘unnamed’ two star general who warned Shaffer that he would lose his job if he continued to pursue action on Mohammad Atta. In fact, I ordered him to place yellow stickers over Atta’s face on the large chart Able Danger had prepared identifying the terrorists.
I confess that I have destroyed Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer’s career by placing him on administrative leave, taking his health benefits, pension and salary away – and slapping a gag order on him prohibiting him from talking about the incident.
I confess that I infiltrated the 911 Commission and erased all knowledge and references to Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer and Able Danger in their final report.
I confess that when known Al Qaeda terrorists arrived in San Diego I posed as a professor of English Abdussattar Shaikh – a known FBI asset – met them at the airport and housed them under my own roof. I possessed a phony diploma from a phony college with known military-intelligence connections.
I confess that when the hijackings were underway I prevented the US Airforce from scambling jets to protect Washington DC – despite the nearly 90 minutes warning they received.
I confess that I had the Pentagon ‘stand down’ its anti-aircraft batteries, allowing the plane to hit.
I confess that I secretly tutored Hijacker Hani Honjour (who could not even fly a single engine Cessna) to fly a wide-bodied jet, with all its modern instrumentation aboard, from Ohio to Washington DC, evading radar and the United States Air Force the entire way, and hitting the Pentagon with pinpoint accuracy, executing a flight maneuver that even experienced pilots claim they would have difficulty executing.
I confess that – out of compassion - I arranged for the one section of the Pentagon that was struck to be nearly empty due to renovations (to reinforce walls with blast resistant Kevlar).
I confess that I secretly worked with esteemed physicist Stephen Hawking to change the laws of physics and caused 3 buildings in NYC to collapse at near free-fall speed, despite the internally redundant and massive core columns which were unaffected by damage and fire.
I confess that I slipped President George W. Bush pharmaceutical grade LSD on the morning of 9/11, causing him to sit enraptured over a pet goat story depicted in a children’s book, despite being told by his chief of staff that “America Is Under Attack.”
I confess that I hindered the investigations into Zacarias Mousoui by re-writing and removing key evidence from the subpoena to search his laptop, despite over 70 warnings that he was planning air piracy.
I confess that I removed military-grade anthrax from the army’s Ft. Detrick, MD laboratories, and mailed it to liberal democrats in Congress who were threatening to slow down passage of the Patriot Act.
I confess that I ordered Dick Cheney’s staff to begin taking the anti-anthrax antibiotic Cipro just days before the first of the anthrax letters were mailed.
I confess that I fabricated all the links between Iraq and Al Qaeda and WMDs and 9/11, confusing the American public into launching a catastrophically ill-advised war in Iraq.
I confess that I distracted nearly everyone in the chain of command on 911, so that none of them were available to take action on that morning.
I confess that I scheduled a meeting between the acting head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Max Clellan, so that he was unaware of the attacks until after the Pentagon was hit.
I confess that I forced Donald Rumsfeld to sit inactive at his desk on 9/11 until after the Pentagon was hit.
I confess that I made the secret service sit inactive, failing to protect the president and remove him from his Sarasota school photo-op, until after the Pentagon was hit.
I confess that I ordered all the top brass in the Pentagon on September 10th to cancel their travel plans for the next day.
I confess that I made General Winfield (in charge of the Pentagon war room) request a rookie stand in for him on the morning of September 11th. I had him put this request in on the evening of September 10th.
I confess that I ordered multiple simultaneous war games for the morning of September 11th that mirrored the hijackings themselves - confused air traffic controllers.
I confess that I ordered multiple drills for the morning of September 11th, including FEMA being pre-placed in Manhattan – and emergency personnel pre-placed in Washington DC preparing for a scenario of a plane hitting the CIA building.
I confess that made Donald Rumsfeld address congress at 8am on the morning of 9/11, and warn them that soon something ‘shocking’ would happen soon.
I confess that I published the infamous Project For The New American Century document that described the need for a “catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor.”
I confess that I forced the president to ignore dozens or warnings, including his August 6th presidential briefing entitled, “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the US”
I confess that I forced NORAD to provide 3 timelines of events for that day, all of which have been proven to be inaccurate.
I confess that I hindered the president in his attempts to capture Osama Bin Laden for the last 5 years.
I confess that I hindered the president in his attempts to rescue people in New Orleans.
I confess that I personally signed legislation destroying the United States Constitution – removing civil liberties and due process.
I confess that I mesmerized the American media into NOT ASKING QUESTIONS about 9/11.
I confess that I placed cointelpro operatives throughout the 911 Truth movement to distract them with tales of holograms, space beams, TVFakery and American Idol.
I confess that I killed O.J. Simpson’s wife.
I confess that I kidnapped the Lindberg baby.
I confess that I am the Zodiac killer.
I confess that I fired the fatal headshot in the JFK assassination.Funny one. Written by John Albanese on 911 blogger.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Well, humor is a coping mechanism for a lot of people...

[WildCat]

Funny one. Written by John Albanese on 911 blogger.
That's a nice list, neatly summarizing troofer dogma and confirming that thousands of people must be in on this conspiracy you guys fantasize about... and that no one has blown the whistle on.

[PhantomWolf]

There is a chance KSM exaggerated his claims about events other than 9/11.

Well let's have a look at the claims.

His position in Al Qaeda

1) Swore Allegiance to OBL
2) Member of AQ Council
3) Media Contact for AQ
4) Directed 9/11 for OBL
5) Operational commander for AQ operations worldwide.
6) Directly in charge of AQ's WMD development team
7) Was Commander of the Martyr's House responsible for training and execution of operations.

Why would he have need to exaggerate these, we already knew or suspected most of it.

I have separated the operations he listed into 4 groups. Those that were done and worked, and we know about. Those that we know about, but failed. Those that never progressed beyond his financing or sending teams to look into it and those that never got much off the drawing board. I've left the numbering the same as in the statement.


Successful

1 – 1993 WTC attack
2 – 9/11
3 – Classified (Beheading of Daniel Pearl?)
4 – Shoe Bomb attempt
5 – Filka Island Operation
6 – Bali Nightclub Bombing
21 – Mombassa Hotel Bombing

A total of 7 actual successful attacks, all of which AQ was at least suspected, if not known. It doesn't however include notiable attacks such as the US Embasy Bombing in Kenya, the USS Cole, the Saudi Arabian US Barracks attacks, or the Australian Embassy bombing in Indonesia.

Unsuccessful

22 – El-Al missile attack (Al Qaeda already claimed responsibility (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/12/03/missile.defense/))
28 – Assassination attempt on President Clinton (AQ was suspected already (http://www.cnn.com/US/9808/25/bin.laden.02/index.html))
29 – Assassination attempt on Pope John Paul 2nd (KSM was already the main suspect for it (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/11/11/1036308581808.html))
30 – Assassination attempt on President Musarraf (The group that did this was already beleived to have Al Quaeda finance backing and training (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/09/19/pakistan.arrests.plot/))

These four were all suspected to have been supported and directed by AQ already, and in at least one case KSM was already the main suspect for organising it.

Surveillance of Finance only

20 – Israel surveillance and target location
23 – South Korea target location and surveillance
24 – Providing financial support for Turkey attacks
27 – Bojinka Operation

We can't prove or disprove these are they weren't more than basic operations, but why lie or exaggerate them?

Not Attempted

7 – Second Wave US attack
8 – Planned attacks on Oil Tankers
9 – Bomb Panama Canal
10 – Assassinate President Carter
11 – Bomb NY Bridges
12 – Truck Bomb Sear Tower
13 – British Infrastructure attacks
14 – Thai Nightclub bombings
15 – US Stock Exchange attack
16 – Plane attack on Elat
17 – US Embassy bombings in Indonesia, Japan and Australia
18 – Israeli Embassy bombings
19 – El-Al plane attack in Thailand
25 – Attacks on US Nuclear Plants
26 – Attack on NATO headquarters
31 – Oil company attack on Sumatra

Again, none of these operations actually happened, they were merely planned to some extent, but never carried out. Thus again, why would he lie about them?

That leaves us with 11 confirmable attacks, all 11 already admitted to or suspected to have been done by AQ. 11 attacks over the space of 10 years. It doesn't seem out of the realm of possiblity for a person who was the Operational commander for AQ operations worldwide.

[LashL]

Funny one. Written by John Albanese on 911 blogger.

It is not surprising that you would find that "funny". Apparently, many troofers find it humorous to disparage the lives and deaths of real people and find it hilarious to make light of the murders of real people.

Guess what? Most people are decent human beings and don't find such ugliness funny. Clearly, you have chosen to count yourself among the indecent minority and you even find it entertaining to spread the ugliness around.

Now, tell us again about how you and your fellow troofers are all about standing up for the victims. I'm sure the families will be really, really impressed with what you find "funny".

[pagan]

It is not surprising that you would find that "funny". Apparently, many troofers find it humorous to disparage the lives and deaths of real people and find it hilarious to make light of the murders of real people.

Guess what? Most people are decent human beings and don't find such ugliness funny. Clearly, you have chosen to count yourself among the indecent minority and you even find it entertaining to spread the ugliness around.

Now, tell us again about how you and your fellow troofers are all about standing up for the victims. I'm sure the families will be really, really impressed with what you find "funny".

Using this "moral" argument is so stoopid. Often used by the believers, the stoopid ones, I may add. You don't get it do you? We believe that 9/11 was done by certain elements within the Bush adm. I am quite sure that the victims don't mind finding out the truth?

Therefore your argument falls flat on the ground. Stop using the victims.

[Babbylonian]

<snip>
I am quite sure that the victims don't mind finding out the truth?
<snip>
Stop using the victims.
Well played!

[PhantomWolf]

I am quite sure that the victims don't mind finding out the truth?

The truth or what you want to be true?

[The Demon's Head]

Troofers have been making up the lies as they go along. Troofers truly believe thier lies are the truth.

[LashL]

Using this "moral" argument is so stoopid. Often used by the believers, the stoopid ones, I may add. You don't get it do you? We believe that 9/11 was done by certain elements within the Bush adm. I am quite sure that the victims don't mind finding out the truth?

Therefore your argument falls flat on the ground. Stop using the victims.


Clearly, reading comprehension is only one of your many weaknesses. I am not in any way, shape or form "using the victims". I am simply pointing out the latest of many disgusting displays of false sympathy that troofers like you put on while pretending to be acting in the best interests of the victims and their loved ones.

As is obvious, you also don't even know when your posts are self-debunking and self-contradictory.

Now, go and tell those victims upon whose behalf you claim to be acting that you find Albanese's post "funny". Go on, now. Do it. And then tell them that you spread it around the internet in their best interests. Go on, now. Do it. Oh, and be sure to quote all of your posts from this forum as well so that they will see how thoughtful and caring you are and how you only have their best interests at heart. Surely, none of them will notice your hypocrisy or your lies. Go on, now. Do it.

Then post links and results here.

Yes, that's the kicker. We won't just take your word for it. Around here, you have to provide facts and evidence. So go on already, get moving, and come back with results.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

<snip>
I am quite sure that the victims don't mind finding out the truth?
<snip>
Stop using the victims.
Well played!
Rofl...

By the way, pagan... How old are you again?

[firecoins]

Using this "moral" argument is so stoopid. Often used by the believers, the stoopid ones, I may add. You don't get it do you? We believe that 9/11 was done by certain elements within the Bush adm. I am quite sure that the victims don't mind finding out the truth?

Therefore your argument falls flat on the ground. Stop using the victims.
I think you will find that your the stupid one. The victims know the truth. The survivors know the truth. The truthers know sh i t.

[gumboot]

Well let's have a look at the claims.

His position in Al Qaeda

[B]1) Swore Allegiance to OBL


There might be some bluff and bravado present in this statement. According to earlier statements by KSM he was always reluctant to join Al Qaeda, not being convinced that OBL was serious about attacking the USA. It was not until the late 90's that he finally agreed to join Al Qaeda (the Embassy bombings of '98 are cited as having convinced him of OBL's seriousness) and according to the 9/11 Commission KSM denied ever actually swearing an oath of allegiance to OBL. It was KSM who brought to 9/11 plot to Al Qaeda when he joined.

Of course he could have also just sworn allegiance some time after the late 90's...

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Yes, the transcript says that he personally beheaded Daniel Pearl and that photos on the internet show that to be the case. That was in the transcript that I read earlier today - is there an earlier more heavily redacted version of the transcript that you are referring to?


Yeah. I just downloaded it now, and this one is less heavily edited than the initial one I saw.

-Gumboot

[skepticalcriticalguy]

He's long been suspected in that.

Wasn't Perle investigating the ISI link to 9/11 funding when he was captured?

Just JAQing.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

At the risk of sounding like a CTist...

It's frigging Guantanamo Bay. OF COURSE he was tortured! Just because he didn't confess under torture, doesn't mean that he wasn't tortured to confess.

Also:


It sounds like he's confessing to anything and everything.
Confessions don't hold a lot of weight with me.

A voice of reason and sanity in an otherwise unreasonable and insane world.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Update from CNN... according to additional material released by the Military, KSM also claims to have beheaded US Journalist Daniel Pearl.

-Gumboot

Did he also claim to be John Doe #3? (Oh, wait; that was Jose Padilla).

[skepticalcriticalguy]

There is a chance KSM exaggerated his claims about events other than 9/11.

Well, then there is also a chance KSM exaggerated his claims about events regarding 9/11.

[Unfit4Command]

Update from CNN... according to additional material released by the Military, KSM also claims to have beheaded US Journalist Daniel Pearl.

-Gumboot

I heard about that earlier today, that's so sick...

[skepticalcriticalguy]

So, what are he odds that a story will "leak" that he fingerd Bush and Co. and every CTer will believe it?

We'll "believe it" to the same degree you all believe this KSM, Moussaoui, etc crap.

[Pardalis]

We'll "believe it" to the same degree you all believe this KSM, Moussaoui, etc crap.

What if you're wrong and these guys really are guilty?

[skepticalcriticalguy]

One would think that this confession would be the nail in the coffin to the truth movement.

Troofers will probably continue on with their lies.

What if it is? Then what will you all do? I have a few suggestions:

A) toss the baseball out back with your kid. He misses you, since you've been on your big quest to... ummm... well... tell folks they're wrong about some stuff.

B) focus on that promotion

C) get a date

C'mon guys; the "Twoofers" actually think they are saving the world. What do you do this for? Just to be right? Superior? Or are you genuinely concerned that there might be some crazy overthrow of the US government over this. (That can't be the case, because there is no "there" there with the whole Twoof Mooooovement). So move along!

Hey, now that 9/11 Truth is dead, can we get back to Vince Foster and Mena?

:confused:

[skepticalcriticalguy]

What if you're wrong and these guys really are guilty?

To quote the first reply I ever got here at the JREF, "monkeys might fly out of my butt."

[skepticalcriticalguy]

I heard about that earlier today, that's so sick...

What do you mean it's "sick?"

And I heard about it a year or so ago. Y'all should keep up on the CTs you want to ridicule.

[Pardalis]

What if you're wrong and these guys really are guilty?

[Redtail]

We'll "believe it" to the same degree you all believe this KSM, Moussaoui, etc crap.

So you'll say "Ah ha! Here's the Smoking GUN!!!!" again!!!

What is you proof that KSM's and Moussaoui's confessions are crap?

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Originally Posted by skepticalIdiotguy
The Teevee just told me he plotted it, "from A to Z." So what did Bin Bin do then?



$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$

Yes. I follow that.

:p

[Unfit4Command]

What do you mean it's "sick?"

And I heard about it a year or so ago. Y'all should keep up on the CTs you want to ridicule.

Wait...I definitely quoted this post from Gumboot...

"Update from CNN... according to additional material released by the Military, KSM also claims to have beheaded US Journalist Daniel Pearl.

-Gumboot"

Maybe I messed up, I didn't mean to quote your post, sorry.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

So you'll say "Ah ha! Here's the Smoking GUN!!!!" again!!!

What is you proof that KSM's and Moussaoui's confessions are crap?




It doesn't matter what proof I have. It won't be proof to you.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

I would LOVE to see this trial TELEVISED IN ITS ENTIRETY!

(Unlike Moussaoui, Hussein, McVeigh, etc).

For crying out loud, it's the trial of the century! Let us watch it! (And record it, and interpret it, etc).

[Pardalis]

I would LOVE to see this trial TELEVISED IN ITS ENTIRETY!

(Unlike Moussaoui, Hussein, McVeigh, etc).

For crying out loud, it's the trial of the century! Let us watch it! (And record it, and interpret it, etc).

OK, OK, I'll see what I can do.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

OK, OK, I'll see what I can do.

Thank you. I know you have connections!

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Wait...I definitely quoted this post from Gumboot...

"Update from CNN... according to additional material released by the Military, KSM also claims to have beheaded US Journalist Daniel Pearl.

-Gumboot"

Maybe I messed up, I didn't mean to quote your post, sorry.

Well, I appreciate you "fixing" this, but you also edited your post, which kind of makes me look like I don't know what I quoted. That's OK, things get confusing sometimes.

[Redtail]

What if it is? Then what will you all do? I have a few suggestions:

A) toss the baseball out back with your kid. He misses you, since you've been on your big quest to... ummm... well... tell folks they're wrong about some stuff.

No kids here. (yet) Alyssa still has to finish grad school. We could get a lil more time riding our bike though.

B) focus on that promotion

Meh. This is my last Semester teaching at FAMU and FSU. Then she gets her MFA and we move to Chicago and we hit the theatre scene.

C) get a date

I'm engaged. (Proof I'm not a troofer!)

C'mon guys; the "Twoofers" actually think they are saving the world. What do you do this for? Just to be right? Superior? Or are you genuinely concerned that there might be some crazy overthrow of the US government over this. (That can't be the case, because there is no "there" there with the whole Twoof Mooooovement). So move along!

Can't speak for others but I (for now at least) and a good portion of my family am/are/were teachers and thus we have a mission to cure ignorance. What you and others are doing is ignorant. Also many of you claim to be thinking for yourselves but in all of your "thinking" you forget to back anything up. You see anyone who dismisses your your little fantasies as either shills, or sheep, or scared to admit the truth. It never crosses your minds that maybe, just maybe they have far more knowledge about the situation than you, therefore (having seen the fantasies before) they know you won't believe them unless they tell you what they want to hear so they decide to ignore you.

Lastly, if the majority of us decided to just drop it you would claim "victory", and do nothing but crow about said "victory" on your blogs and shaking your heads that you couldn't bring Bush and Co. to justice even though I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations on the muder of 3000+ people won't be up when his term ends.
[/quote]

[Redtail]

It doesn't matter what proof I have. It won't be proof to you.

No. I'm not with the CT crowd remember?

[Redtail]

I would LOVE to see this trial TELEVISED IN ITS ENTIRETY!

(Unlike Moussaoui, Hussein, McVeigh, etc).

For crying out loud, it's the trial of the century! Let us watch it! (And record it, and interpret it, etc).

Uh-huh...

[skepticalcriticalguy]

No kids here. (yet) Alyssa still has to finish grad school. We could get a lil more time riding our bike though.



Meh. This is my last Semester teaching at FAMU and FSU. Then she gets her MFA and we move to Chicago and we hit the theatre scene.



I'm engaged. (Proof I'm not a troofer!)



Can't speak for others but I (for now at least) and a good portion of my family am/are/were teachers and thus we have a mission to cure ignorance. What you and others are doing is ignorant. Also many of you claim to be thinking for yourselves but in all of your "thinking" you forget to back anything up. You see anyone who dismisses your your little fantasies as either shills, or sheep, or scared to admit the truth. It never crosses your minds that maybe, just maybe they have far more knowledge about the situation than you, therefore (having seen the fantasies before) they know you won't believe them unless they tell you what they want to hear so they decide to ignore you.

Lastly, if the majority of us decided to just drop it you would claim "victory", and do nothing but crow about said "victory" on your blogs and shaking your heads that you couldn't bring Bush and Co. to justice even though I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations on the muder of 3000+ people won't be up when his term ends.
[/quote]

Well, I'm glad you do have a life. And are concerned with curing ignorance.

One thing; we don't all think Bush did it. Some of us believe it was a coup de'tat, and Bush was overthrown and is being controlled. That isn't so far out of the question, in light of what we've seen the past few years.

Do you think Vince Foster committed suicide? JAQ.

[busherie]

Daniel Pearl Beheaded by KSM? Might not be as easy as you debunkers think...

Busherie

Impossible to know if Mohammed telling truth: Pearl parents

Thu Mar 15, 7:30 PM ET LOS ANGELES (AFP) - The parents of murdered US journalist Daniel Pearl said Thursday it was "impossible to know" if alleged terrorist mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the man who had beheaded their son.

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Mohammed, the self-confessed chief planner of the September 11 attacks, claimed to have been responsible for decapitating Pearl following the Wall Street Journal reporter's kidnapping in Pakistan in 2002.
The alleged Al-Qaeda kingpin made the claim during a closed hearing at a military base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the Pentagon (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Pentagon) said Thursday.


Ruth and Judea Pearl said in a statement to AFP from their home in Encino, California that they were treating Mohammed's statement cautiously.
"It is impossible to know at this point whether Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's boast about killing our son has any bearing in truth," they said.
"We prefer to focus our energy on continuing Danny's lifework through the programs of the Daniel Pearl Foundation which aim to eradicate the hatred that took his life."


Based in Los Angeles, the non-profit Daniel Pearl Foundation promotes cultural tolerance through music and journalism, two of the slain journalist's passions.


Pearl, 38, was the South Asia bureau chief for The Wall Street Journal when he was abducted in Karachi on January 23, 2002 while researching a story about Islamic militants.


His kidnapping triggered a massive manhunt across Pakistan, as his French wife, Mariane, who was heavily pregnant with the couple's first child, maintained an anxious vigil.

[westprog]

It doesn't matter what proof I have. It won't be proof to you.

Obviously no matter what evidence you produce, the government supporters and mindless drones of JREF won't accept it. That doesn't matter. This is a public forum, and if entirely convincing evidence is presented, it will be visible to the general public, and will help bring out the Truth.

It might be that the government will instruct JREF, when they get their weekly packet of instructions, to remove the evidence. But that will be valuable in itself. Anything they feel they have to censor will clearly be the vital smoking gun.

[gorgg]

7c.
"I was responsible for planning, training, surveying, and financing for the New (or Second) Wave of attacks against the following skyscrapers after 9/11: ...Plaza Bank, Washington state"

Some CT claim this is impossible because Plaza Bank was founded in 2006. But that's a bank and not a skyscraper.
w ww.atlargely.com/2007/03/important_huge.html

So what building do they refer to?
- Bank of America Plaza in Atlanta (not WA)
- Columbia Center in Seattle (already thought to be one of the initial targets on 9/11)
- Bank of America Fifth Avenue Plaza in Seattle (but 'only' 42 stories)
- ???

[Without Rights]

Really? Show us.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/29/hayes.911/
http://www.rushonline.com/visitors/linkconfirmed.htm
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Poll_Nearly_third_of_Americans_still_0922.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/05/september11/main520874.shtml
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0511/S00247.htm
http://www.sierratimes.com/05/11/16/70_224_230_40_47971.htm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/27/walq327.xml
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0314/p02s01-woiq.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/921398/posts

Do you have anything to offer except insults and "really, show us"?
You must have that hotkeyed.

[Without Rights]

No. I'm not with the CT crowd remember?
Does that mean you discount conspiracies from the beginning?

[Without Rights]

It may interest you that during the hearing KSM complained of mistreatment. Not torture, but mistreatment. The President of the hearing said they would investigate his allegations.

-Gumboot

ABC reports;
According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866

[Without Rights]

For what it's worth...

During the hearing KSM presents a pre-prepared hand written (in Arabic and English) and typed catalogue of alleged abuses at the hands of the US, while in their custody.

What's important to note is he claims all of these abuses occured before he arrived at Guantanamo Bay.

In other words, he is claiming the CIA abused him, not the US Military.

Also, in case anyone is interested, the Al Qaeda training manuals teach that any Jihadist who is captured by the enemy should always claim they were tortured.

-Gumboot

If American politicians and US attorneys did not push for and condone torture then nobody would believe them. But since they do condone it...
Like John Yoo's child testicle crushing memo.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Does that mean you discount conspiracies from the beginning?

Without Rights, I'd love to hear each member here name one conspiracy theory they believe could be true.

The world is run by finance oligarchs. I think we can all agree on that. The very nature, and lifeblood, of a ruling oligarchy is conspiracy.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

ABC reports;
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866

Don't be absurd! Waterboarding isn't torture!! Bush said so!

Did his Attorney General quit yet? (tick, tick, tick...)

[Without Rights]

I think you will find that your the stupid one. The victims know the truth. The survivors know the truth. The truthers know sh i t.
More than 400 family members of the deceased are truthers.

[Without Rights]

Don't be absurd! Waterboarding isn't torture!! Bush said so!

Did his Attorney General quit yet? (tick, tick, tick...)
Or maybe ABC is made up of woo-woo CT's.

[Dave Rogers]

Without Rights, I'd love to hear each member here name one conspiracy theory they believe could be true.

For what value of the variable "conspiracy theory" would you like to know? Based on the truther definition, I think most of the skeptics here believe the theory that 19 Islamic fundamentalist terrorists conspired to crash airliners into prominent US targets on September 11th 2001 at the very least "could be true". If that's not acceptable, are you happy to admit that the official account of 9/11 is not a conspiracy theory?

The world is run by finance oligarchs. I think we can all agree on that.

For what value of the variables "we" and "all"?

Dave

[beachnut]

Daniel Pearl Beheaded by KSM? Might not be as easy as you debunkers think...OH no, could he be telling lies like you truthers do?

Let me see. YES, he could be just like the liars in the truth movement. Taking credit for things he did not do. Sure! Truthers take credit for solving a crime which was not done, and they do it with facts they do not have!

Bingo, you have finally found something that could be true. Terrrorist could be just like the truth movement. Filled with lies? Point? set match

[Without Rights]

Bingo, you have finally found something that could be true. Terrrorist could be just like the truth movement. Filled with lies? Point? set match

How appropriate to have a ? behind "point".

[Without Rights]

For what value of the variable "conspiracy theory" would you like to know? Based on the truther definition, I think most of the skeptics here believe the theory that 19 Islamic fundamentalist terrorists conspired to crash airliners into prominent US targets on September 11th 2001 at the very least "could be true". If that's not acceptable, are you happy to admit that the official account of 9/11 is not a conspiracy theory?

So you recognize that 19 arabs is just a theory? And I believe he meant conspiracies executed by the US Government.

[beachnut]

Why are the woos all up in arms about this news? Is there some loss when a terrorist talks and tells how he is proud to kill western ideas by killing westerners? Are you guys Islamic terrorist helpers?

You disrespect all who died on 9/11 by making up lies and now you show veiled support for terrorist? What have we learned from this thread? If you want to get a woo to show up use this subject matter, and like flies the woos will start to bring up woo stuff. Sorry woos, but you seem to craw out when this type of subject comes up so you can sympathize with the terrorist. Why?

[skepticalcriticalguy]

For what value of the variables "we" and "all"?

Dave

Why stop there? Why not ask me to give values for "can" and "all" and "agree," too?

Do you disagree with the statement "the world is run by finance oligarchs?"

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Why are the woos all up in arms about this news?

What I find interesting is that you anti-woo woo-woos seem to be the ones with your panties all in a bunch.

[beachnut]

So you recognize that 19 arabs is just a theory? And I believe he meant conspiracies executed by the US Government.
Why do truthers have problems with simple things. Yes 19 terrorist boarded 4 planes. 3 planes hit buildings. 1 plane was forced down by the passengers.

THE passengers of FLIGHT 93 did in 60 minutes what the truters have messed up in 5 years and still do not have a clue. YES, some ordinary people stopped the hijackers from making their target. HOW could they figure out in 60 minutes what you idiots have messed up for 5 years? Why are they so much smarter then the entire truth movement combined!?

They figured out what you and your liars in the truth movement still do not have a clue, nor will you ever have a clue. They did more in a few minutes for others than you will do in your life time. They did more for all of us than you will ever do! You do not have the courage to fine one fact about 9/11. You do not have the logical capacity to figure out anything on 9/11.

Flight 93 passengers were thousands of time more brave and capable of logical thinking than the few idiots in the truth movement. You dishonor their memory with your pathetic attempt to lie about 9/11. Find some facts and get some basic education.

[beachnut]

What I find interesting is that you anti-woo woo-woos seem to be the ones with your panties all in a bunch.
Go get some knowledge, logical thinking, and some facts.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

You disrespect all who died on 9/11 by making up lies

That would be the government

and now you show veiled support for terrorist? Better "veiled" than the government's support of terrorist(s).

[Dave Rogers]

So you recognize that 19 arabs is just a theory? And I believe he meant conspiracies executed by the US Government.

Nice sidestep. Newton's laws are "just a theory", but on the whole I'm regularly happy to entrust them with my safety. Is the official account a conspiracy theory? If it is, then it's one the debunkers believe "could be true", so we're not as closed minded as you want to portray us. If it isn't, then you can't claim equivalence with the fantasies of the truth movement. Your choice.

And if he meant "conspiracies executed by the US Government", why didn't he say so? Are there no other conspiracy theories? (Hint: A-Train's parachuting invIsraelis, Diana conspiracy theories, David Carmichael's endless ravings about the USS Liberty.) Are you speaking for SkepticalCriticalGuy now?

Dave

[Without Rights]

Why do truthers have problems with simple things. Yes 19 terrorist boarded 4 planes. 3 planes hit buildings. 1 plane was forced down by the passengers.

THE passengers of FLIGHT 93 did in 60 minutes what the truters have messed up in 5 years and still do not have a clue. YES, some ordinary people stopped the hijackers from making their target. HOW could they figure out in 60 minutes what you idiots have messed up for 5 years? Why are they so much smarter then the entire truth movement combined!?

They figured out what you and your liars in the truth movement still do not have a clue, nor will you ever have a clue. They did more in a few minutes for others than you will do in your life time. They did more for all of us than you will ever do! You do not have the courage to fine one fact about 9/11. You do not have the logical capacity to figure out anything on 9/11.

Flight 93 passengers were thousands of time more brave and capable of logical thinking than the few idiots in the truth movement. You dishonor their memory with your pathetic attempt to lie about 9/11. Find some facts and get some basic education.
Are your last three post's a good example of "facts"?

[skepticalcriticalguy]

For what value of the variable "conspiracy theory" would you like to know?
Dave

I'd like to know a conspiracy theory that you believe could be true. Vince Foster? Drugs through Clinton's Mena? Wellstone? JFK? Tonkin? Anything? (Skip Watergate, please).

[skepticalcriticalguy]

And if he meant "conspiracies executed by the US Government", why didn't he say so? Are there no other conspiracy theories? (Hint: A-Train's parachuting invIsraelis, Diana conspiracy theories, David Carmichael's endless ravings about the USS Liberty.)

Dave

OK, you can choose from those, too. It doesn't specifically have to be theories that point to the US government.

[DavidJames]

I's like to know a conspiracy theory that you believe could be true. Vince Foster? Drugs through Clinton's Mena? Wellstone? JFK? Tonkin? Anything? (Skip Watergate, please).any of them "could" be true, but it's facts and evidence which will determine whether they are true.

That's the difference between you and normal people.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

any of them "could" be true, but it's facts and evidence which will determine whether they are true.

That's the difference between you and normal people.

There are plenty of facts and lots of evidence for all those. But apparently, not enough. Either that, or there is enough, but the teevee and paper didn't bother to tell us.

[Dave Rogers]

I'd like to know a conspiracy theory that you believe could be true. Vince Foster? Drugs through Clinton's Mena? Wellstone? JFK? Tonkin? Anything? (Skip Watergate, please).

Does it have to be one where the US Government did it?

Dave

[westprog]

I's like to know a conspiracy theory that you believe could be true. Vince Foster? Drugs through Clinton's Mena? Wellstone? JFK? Tonkin? Anything? (Skip Watergate, please).


Iran/Contra
Overthrowing Allende in Chile
Castro assassination attempts
Not saying that they are all true - just that they could well be. This is because


They are inherently plausible.
They have evidence to support them.I have no definitive lists of conspiracies which are credible, and which are nonsense. There's a spectrum there. In the case of 911 theories, it's not inherently absurd that the US government has information which it isn't sharing. It's not credible that the WTC was deliberately demolished. It's completely ludicrous that the WTC was dissolved by satellite laser weapons.

[DavidJames]

There are plenty of facts and lots of evidence for all those. But apparently, not enough. Either that, or there is enough, but the teevee and paper didn't bother to tell us.Let me guess, you believe all of them.

[Without Rights]

Nice sidestep. Newton's laws are "just a theory", but on the whole I'm regularly happy to entrust them with my safety. Is the official account a conspiracy theory? If it is, then it's one the debunkers believe "could be true", so we're not as closed minded as you want to portray us. If it isn't, then you can't claim equivalence with the fantasies of the truth movement. Your choice.Well, that was the most opened minded statement I heard yet. Usually the official account is defended as fact here, with anyone questioning it being labelled crazy.

And if he meant "conspiracies executed by the US Government", why didn't he say so? Are there no other conspiracy theories? (Hint: A-Train's parachuting invIsraelis, Diana conspiracy theories, David Carmichael's endless ravings about the USS Liberty.) Ok, maybe he meant Government conspiracies and not just US. I know he didn't mean terrorists becauase I pay attention to context.

Are you speaking for SkepticalCriticalGuy now?No. I speak for myself, that's why I started the sentence with "I think", I meaning me.

[Dave Rogers]

Sorry, you already answered the US Government question. Tonkin Gulf could be true, I don't know enough to be certain either way. JFK, no. The rest you list, I don't know. Allende, quite possibly. Castro assassination, looks reasonable though stupid. Pearl Harbor/FDR, not in a million years, it's just too stupid a premise and all the evidence is against it. Churchill/Coventry, possible but not reasonable in the light of the evidence, I don't believe it. Iran/Contra, yes, quite plausible. Reichstag, looks like no despite the awfulness of the supposed culprit. Chemtrails, don't be stupid. Moon landings, ditto. Watergate... no, just yanking your chain.

Bottom line, I'll believe it if the evidence says yes, I'll believe it could be true if there's virtually no evidence, I'll disbelieve it if the evidence says no. 9-11, the evidence doesn't just say no, it says
NO!

Dave

[Without Rights]

Sorry, you already answered the US Government question. Tonkin Gulf could be true, I don't know enough to be certain either way. JFK, no. The rest you list, I don't know. Allende, quite possibly. Castro assassination, looks reasonable though stupid. Pearl Harbor/FDR, not in a million years, it's just too stupid a premise and all the evidence is against it. Churchill/Coventry, possible but not reasonable in the light of the evidence, I don't believe it. Iran/Contra, yes, quite plausible. Reichstag, looks like no despite the awfulness of the supposed culprit. Chemtrails, don't be stupid. Moon landings, ditto. Watergate... no, just yanking your chain.

Bottom line, I'll believe it if the evidence says yes, I'll believe it could be true if there's virtually no evidence, I'll disbelieve it if the evidence says no. 9-11, the evidence doesn't just say no, it says
NO!

Dave

What evidence is definitive enough to give you an astounding no on 911?

Or JFK?

[beachnut]

Are your last three post's a good example of "facts"?
Better facts than you will ever post! Did I say ever?

[Dave Rogers]

What evidence is definitive enough to give you an astounding no on 911?

The totality of it. Did you mean "resounding"? I don't think there's anything particularly astounding in the conclusion that 911 wasn't an inside job, though I suspect you may disagree.

Or JFK?

Just a reqular sized no on JFK. Not really on-topic for this thread.

Dave