David Ray Griffin

[stilicho]

I have been spending some time reading more about David Ray Griffin because I know of his links to panentheism. I have actually seen a renowned panentheist, Marcus Borg, debating the divinity of Jesus and literalism in biblical interpretation with a skilled opponent.

As a consequence, I think I've figured out the motivation behind his awkward conspiracy theories. It isn't money.

Instead, there is a strong brand of 'activist theology' that might even appeal to the rationalists on this board. Along with Griffin and Borg, there are others such as J Dominic Crossan and John Shuck who deconstruct God from omnipotent being to "prime mover" who is available regardless of one's faith or denomination.

Frankly this is heresy.

Plucking an omni-everything being out of mystery and into a malleable reflection of humanity leads to all kinds of problems. For one thing, pastors such as Griffin, Borg, Crossan and Shuck see no problem with converting their pulpits into conveyances for privately-held beliefs about how God doesn't like the United States (or the Western 'consumer culture' in general). Or that God might allow Satan to guide Dick Cheney to blow up the World Trade Center and blame it on Muslim extremists. Or that God doesn't want you to buy an Escalade because he's also the god of native American animists who can't afford one.

I am simplifying all this, naturally, since this is an internet forum and not a thesis jury I am presenting it to. But it concerns me that a theologian might begin from a deconstruction of God to make him fit into a pecular world-view.

[Babbylonian]

Conspiracy theorists comprise their own religion. They need believe in nothing apart from vast, omnipotent organizations (well, usually one's enough and CTers just add members as needed) of the rich and powerful (and often Jewish) who leave clues to their plots so subtle that only the CTers can discern them, while the rest of the world sleeps. In fact, I'd say that the CTer would generally accept said omnipotent organization as the vengeful, hateful deity running our lives.

Oh, conspire on ye vengeful Illuminati
Thine power shall wane before our Truth
We wake the fat, the lazy, the content
Purging the evil, slowly but surely.

[Brainster]

Nico Haupt likes to say that Griffin's the leader of some Chinese cult. Anything to this? Most of the time, when I check this stuff out, Nico turns out to be right (at least on things that don't actually concern 9-11 but the Denial Movement itself).

There is more than an element of weird cultism around the 9-11 Deniers. You've got Les Jamieson and one of the founders of 911Truth.org belonging to URANTIA, you've got the LaRouche nuts like Tarpley, you've got Barbara "Voices in my head told me to work for Reagan," Honegger. Now of course there are two basic explanations. The non-paranoid one is that those kooky enough to fall for one cult will probably fall for another. And the other is that they're actively working to subvert the 9-11 Deniers.

[gumboot]

One thing I find startling is how lame the arguments of the "leaders" of the 9/11 Truth Movement are.

It doesn't surprise me that the senseless teenage/early twenties sheep repeat ad nauseum the same ancient debunked garbage. But take a look some time at Griffin's key lists of aspects of 9/11 that prove a government conspiracy. It's all the usual garbage. Nothing new whatsoever.

-Gumboot

[stilicho]

Actually, Griffin's start is not omnipotent anything. He is deconstructing the omnipotent being into a convenience item. He isn't crazy, and there are a lot of "activist" Christians prone to the same ideas that he arrived at.

If I can quickly explain how it works:

There is a great deal of injustice in the world. An omnipotent deity wouldn't let that happen--he would employ his power to stop it. Since he doesn't, he isn't quite omnipotent--just powerful enough to worship. So he's leaving it up to you and me to fix the things he won't fix (takes a willfull decision on his part to let us). If we don't fix it and succumb to "PWELGAS" (anyone with a Christian background knows what that is), then God will "allow" evil forces to take over.

Hence, God is not quite omnipotent but still exists, so all unhappy events are due to ungodly forces who fill the vacuum left by a supremely good deity's unwillingness to intervene.

I wish I had a better opportunity to explain this stuff. An internet forum is a terrible place to do it. But those panentheists I mentioned are not driven by insanity or failure to comprehend physics. They are driven by genuine moral outrage at a world that doesn't realise that "we" made God and not the other way around. Griffin is far closer in his philosophy to sceptics than most people will admit. Who among sceptics here would argue that God is omnipotent?

Griffin doesn't either.

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Conspiracy theorists comprise their own religion. They need believe in nothing apart from vast, omnipotent organizations (well, usually one's enough and CTers just add members as needed) of the rich and powerful (and often Jewish) who leave clues to their plots so subtle that only the CTers can discern them, while the rest of the world sleeps. In fact, I'd say that the CTer would generally accept said omnipotent organization as the vengeful, hateful deity running our lives.

Oh, conspire on ye vengeful Illuminati
Thine power shall wane before our Truth
We wake the fat, the lazy, the content
Purging the evil, slowly but surely.

Well, I don't think it's quite that simple.

[Architect]

Well, I don't think it's quite that simple.

And comprise doesn't mean what he thinks it means either. ;)

[ref]

David Ray Griffin has stated there are 11 charasteristics of controlled demolition found at the WTC. He doesn't provide any calculations to support his statements. He ignores all the calculations proving otherwise. He magically transforms pools of metal into pools of steel in the same sentence. He claims laws of physics were violated, but he doesn't say which laws nor prove these violations in any way. When a law of physics is broken, you surely would have calculations proving these violations, right? Lots of talking, nothing to back it up.

Mr. Griffin. For anyone to take anything you say seriously, you should provide some actual evidence. Not theories. And please, stop lying and twisting the stories so much.

[pagan]

Frankly this is heresy.



I certainly hope so, we truthers like to see ourselves as heretics.

While you guys are the uncritical believers in the holy faith

[beachnut]

I certainly hope so, we truthers like to see ourselves as heretics.

While you guys are the uncritical believers in the holy faith
No, the truthers are mindless drones, lemmings who did not wait to follow, who have taken the leap into lies that comprise the 9/11 truth movement.

No facts from any members in the entire truth movement. No ability to understand reality and large systems. They meander around and spout lies they discover from idiots who think they run the movement. Not able to think for themselves and totally confused to find the facts from thousands of impendent sources. They thrive on google where the lies seem to dominate the top 200 search results. With no ability to think and reason, yet an incredible ability to believe lies without checking the facts, these fact challenged lemmings move on post after post making themselves feel good by never presenting any facts, but declaring victory as they go leaving bs stream of bits showing up on my monitor.

Yet I ask for facts. The truth movement is silent. …

[Babbylonian]

Well, I don't think it's quite that simple.
Of course it is. CTers generate their theories on the basis of an underlying, apparently unprovable assumption and rely on faith and misinterpretation of available facts to support their theories. To me, that spells religion. The fact that y'all dont call the places you congregate "churches" or "synagogues" or "mosques," instead calling them Internet message boards, doesn't make them any less based on faith. The fact that you might use the words "disinfo" instead of "heresy" or "COINTELPRO" instead of "heathen" doesn't change much, either.

And comprise doesn't mean what he thinks it means either. ;)
"Comprise" means exactly what I think it does! Take that! :D

[T.A.M.]

Griffin is basically a more articulate version of Fetzer. He spues the same, tired speculative "omissions" and "what abouts" that have been long debunked. He has nothing new to offer. He is old school in the 9/11 truth movement...a dinosaur.

TAM:)

[pagan]

No, the truthers are mindless drones, lemmings who did not wait to follow, who have taken the leap into lies that comprise the 9/11 truth movement.

No facts from any members in the entire truth movement. No ability to understand reality and large systems. They meander around and spout lies they discover from idiots who think they run the movement. Not able to think for themselves and totally confused to find the facts from thousands of impendent sources. They thrive on google where the lies seem to dominate the top 200 search results. With no ability to think and reason, yet an incredible ability to believe lies without checking the facts, these fact challenged lemmings move on post after post making themselves feel good by never presenting any facts, but declaring victory as they go leaving bs stream of bits showing up on my monitor.

Yet I ask for facts. The truth movement is silent. …


Get back to the doghouse. Did your wife put you there?

We honorable truthers are only driven by facts based on scientific research. We are governed by logic and scientific method.

We do not believe in silly stories and phantasies promoted by the Dubya adm. We do not believe in any sort of authority as you authority suckers.

[T.A.M.]

Get back to the doghouse. Did your wife put you there?

We honorable truthers are only driven by facts based on scientific research. We are governed by logic and scientific method.

We do not believe in silly stories and phantasies promoted by the Dubya adm. We do not believe in any sort of authority as you authority suckers.

Stundie Nominee right here...

TAM:)

[pagan]

Stundie Nominee right here...

TAM:)

Tnx, TAM.

I am honored.:)

[T.A.M.]

sorry man, but never have I seen so many "untruths" in one single statement.

TAM:)

[beachnut]

Get back to the doghouse. Did your wife put you there?

We honorable truthers are only driven by facts based on scientific research. We are governed by logic and scientific method.

We do not believe in silly stories and phantasies promoted by the Dubya adm. We do not believe in any sort of authority as you authority suckers.
Yet we have not seen one fact from your bag of woo, have we?

If the truth movement had any facts they would have a Pulitzer Prize. I would have to say you have no facts, you will never have facts and only the terminally stupid can make up such lies as the 9/11 truth movement does.

You will fail again to state a fact, are you like David Ray Griffin and the truth movement? All talk and no facts.

[beachnut]

Stundie Nominee right here...

TAM:)
I think he can do much better and be a weener if he tries harder! How do they go hundreds of posts with no facts?

yep you are right,

[T.A.M.]

Perhaps, but that was pretty high "Shaite per sentence" ratio, you have to agree.

TAM:)

[DarkMagician]

Get back to the doghouse. Did your wife put you there?
Translation: My wife sends me to the doghouse for any small disagreement.
We honorable truthers are only driven by facts based on scientific research.
Translation: We only listen to the people who we can't understand yet still agree with us.
We are governed by logic and scientific method.
Translation: If they use them, we bail.
We do not believe in silly stories and phantasies promoted by the Dubya adm.
Translation: We love Genetic Fallacies.
We do not believe in any sort of authority as you authority suckers.
Translation: We can't get any authority figures to agree with us.

[CHF]

We honorable truthers are only driven by facts based on scientific research. We are governed by logic and scientific method.

Although sadly, it's now the same logic and scientific method employed by scientists or engineers. Or logical people.

[peteweaver]

Get back to the doghouse. Did your wife put you there?

We honorable truthers are only driven by facts based on scientific research. We are governed by logic and scientific method.

We do not believe in silly stories and phantasies promoted by the Dubya adm. We do not believe in any sort of authority as you authority suckers.

NEVER MIND RHETORIC, PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS.

Be a good chap. Facts please.

[Alareth]

I personally don't believe pagan is a truther. He's simply a Bush hater and rides on the Truth Movment coattails because it's easy to spew hated there.

[boloboffin]

...they're actively working to subvert the 9-11 Deniers.

Subvert?

Or actively capitalizing on a new market?

[pagan]

I personally don't believe pagan is a truther. He's simply a Bush hater and rides on the Truth Movment coattails because it's easy to spew hated there.

Me a Bush hater? You bet I am.

We truthers not only hold him responsible for 911. He has spread death and destruction over ME using 911 as a pretext.
100 000's of innocent people have died because of this stoopid a-hole.

[stateofgrace]

Me a Bush hater? You bet I am.

We truthers not only hold him responsible for 911. He has spread death and destruction over ME using 911 as a pretext.
100 000's of innocent people have died because of this stoopid a-hole.

Pagan, this as been explained to you over and over again. So I will give it one final shot at explaining what is going on here. I assure you I do not speak for everybody here only for myself.

I AM NOT DEFENDING BUSH.

Ok? Can you understand this?

I personally do not particularly like him, I have not ever voiced my approval of the war in Iraq, I have never ever supported the death of a single innocent person because of anybody else’s political, religious or cultural believes. I condemn without reservation violence of any kind inflicted upon another human being. I condemn totally and unreservedly indiscriminate killing and the loss of innocent live.

Can you understand? Are you keeping up and this is sinking in?

I will not though buy into insane conspiracies just to condemn the Bush administration. I will not point my finger at perfectly innocent Americans and accuses them of mass murder of 3000 of their own without cast iron concrete indisputable fact.

Each and every one of the conspiracies that are promoted rely totally on people, innocent people, being involved, planning it all, executing it, covering it. Take one just one of these conspiracies.

The Towers.

Just count if you can, if you can possibly imagine the amount of people it would take to plant explosives, inside the Towers. Then add the people it took to case the Towers, the people who supplied the explosives, the people who detonated the explosives. The people who quickly cleared away all the evidence. The people for NIST who simply produced a fake report that had to fool the entire world. Just stand back for one second and put aside your hatred of Bush and consider the fact that you are not accusing him. You are accusing innocent Americans of mass murder of 3000 of their own. Can you see this?

This is just one, of the countless conspiracies promoted about 911.

This is not a case of Bush being some James Bond style bad guy hell bent on world domination. It is about condemning or supporting somebody on fact, proven fact. Not wishful thinking, not gut feeling, but fact. If you wish to spew your hatred for Bush onto this forum do it based on fact, not ridiculous fantasies.

Do you not see the reality of what you are doing by supporting these conspiracies? You are actually watering down your own objections, you are allowing yourself to be mocked, you are quite literally mocking those that do condemn disastrous foreign polices based on fact.

This as been explained to you countless times Pagan and countless times you have simply refused to acknowledge the genuine reasons why people object to these conspiracies. They bury the truth, they make a mockery of genuine objection and they make you look like a fool.

[pagan]

Pagan, this as been explained to you over and over again. So I will give it one final shot at explaining what is going on here. I assure you I do not speak for everybody here only for myself.

I AM NOT DEFENDING BUSH.

Ok? Can you understand this?

I personally do not particularly like him, I have not ever voiced my approval of the war in Iraq, I have never ever supported the death of a single innocent person because of anybody else’s political, religious or cultural believes. I condemn without reservation violence of any kind inflicted upon another human being. I condemn totally and unreservedly indiscriminate killing and the loss of innocent live.

Can you understand? Are you keeping up and this is sinking in?

I will not though buy into insane conspiracies just to condemn the Bush administration. I will not point my finger at perfectly innocent Americans and accuses them of mass murder of 3000 of their own without cast iron concrete indisputable fact.

Each and every one of the conspiracies that are promoted rely totally on people, innocent people, being involved, planning it all, executing it, covering it. Take one just one of these conspiracies.

The Towers.

Just count if you can, if you can possibly imagine the amount of people it would take to plant explosives, inside the Towers. Then add the people it took to case the Towers, the people who supplied the explosives, the people who detonated the explosives. The people who quickly cleared away all the evidence. The people for NIST who simply produced a fake report that had to fool the entire world. Just stand back for one second and put aside your hatred of Bush and consider the fact that you are not accusing him. You are accusing innocent Americans of mass murder of 3000 of their own. Can you see this?

This is just one, of the countless conspiracies promoted about 911.

This is not a case of Bush being some James Bond style bad guy hell bent on world domination. It is about condemning or supporting somebody on fact, proven fact. Not wishful thinking, not gut feeling, but fact. If you wish to spew your hatred for Bush onto this forum do it based on fact, not ridiculous fantasies.

Do you not see the reality of what you are doing by supporting these conspiracies? You are actually watering down your own objections, you are allowing yourself to be mocked, you are quite literally mocking those that do condemn disastrous foreign polices based on fact.

This as been explained to you countless times Pagan and countless times you have simply refused to acknowledge the genuine reasons why people object to these conspiracies. They bury the truth, they make a mockery of genuine objection and they make you look like a fool.


Hey, the guy asked me if I was a Bush hater. I said yes and gave him the reasons for it.

I AM NOT DEFENDING BUSH.

Ok? Can you understand this? Sure, but we get this little complication. If Bush did 911, you are in fact doing a helluva job defending him.

Each and every one of the conspiracies that are promoted rely totally on people, innocent people, being involved, planning it all, executing it, covering it. Take one just one of these conspiracies.That's also our view in the truth movement. Exept for the "planning it all" part. They can hardly be described as innocent? Most people who were a part of the operation are innocent. They just followed orders as patiots.

Just count if you can, if you can possibly imagine the amount of people it would take to plant explosives, inside the Towers. Then add the people it took to case the Towers, the people who supplied the explosives, the people who detonated the explosives. The people who quickly cleared away all the evidence. The people for NIST who simply produced a fake report that had to fool the entire world. Just stand back for one second and put aside your hatred of Bush and consider the fact that you are not accusing him. You are accusing innocent Americans of mass murder of 3000 of their own. Can you see this?I'm of course, when naming Bush, not meaning Bush personally, I am talking about the Bush adm.
As how many people the operation needed? Who knows, it would necessarily not mean so many. Planting the explosives? Perhaps 20-30?
If we could get a truly objective and independent investigation, we could separate the guilty from the innocents. As it stands now many innocents risk to be blamed.

This is not a case of Bush being some James Bond style bad guy hell bent on world domination. It is about condemning or supporting somebody on fact, proven fact. Not wishful thinking, not gut feeling, but fact. If you wish to spew your hatred for Bush onto this forum do it based on fact, not ridiculous fantasies.It is exactly the case that Bush is a "James Bond style bad guy hell bent on world domination". As proven both by several documents calling for "full spectrum dominance". The only superpower" etc
And by his acts, he has without reason attacked 2 countries using lies, killed many innocent people.


Do you not see the reality of what you are doing by supporting these conspiracies? You are actually watering down your own objections, you are allowing yourself to be mocked, you are quite literally mocking those that do condemn disastrous foreign polices based on fact.

This as been explained to you countless times Pagan and countless times you have simply refused to acknowledge the genuine reasons why people object to these conspiracies. They bury the truth, they make a mockery of genuine objection and they make you look like a fool.We truthers are certainly not supporting any conspiracies. You are the one supporting and defending a conspiracy theory. The "official" CT. Dubya's silly little story. We are the sceptics who are questioning it, because we simply don't believe in it. We are not that gullible.

I see that you are also using the ridiculous argument, used by Monbiot etc. That questioning 911 is bad for the truly noble cause of stopping the Bush adm's disastrous ME policy. This argument takes the prize. It simply is the dumbest ever.

So, to get a new objective independent investigation of the 911 events will boost the Bush adm's ME policy? Don't be stoopid. It would of course be very negative. Especially since his adm has used 911 as a pretext for those policies.

Whatever happened at 911. If the Bush adm were involved or not. The Bush adm deserves hate for what they have done in ME. 100 000's of innocent people have died as a result.

[beachnut]

That is the dumbest reason I have found for telling lies about 9/11. Biased political hate is sad when you resort to making up lies. Go talk to a kurd or an afgan guy. Take you hate and post it in the politcal forum. Only idiots let biases screw up the story and make up lies about 9/11 like those in the truth movement. Stop telling lies pagan.

[pagan]

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David Ray Griffin's latest book. Here are some reviews.

“David Ray Griffin’s Debunking 9/11 Debunking is a superb compendium of the strong body of evidence showing the official U.S. Government story of what happened on September 11, 2001 to be almost certainly a monstrous series of lies. Tragically, the entire course of U.S. foreign and domestic policies since that date has grown out of these almost certain falsehoods. This single book could (and should) provide the basis for the United Nations? International Court of Justice, or some specially constituted global body (independent of the U.S.) to investigate with highest priority, and publicly report its findings about, the charge that unknown elements within the U.S. Government, and possibly some individuals elsewhere closely allied to the U.S., caused or contributed to causing the events of September 11 to happen.”---Bill Christison, former senior official of the CIA.
“Considering how the 9/11 tragedy has been used by the Bush administration to propel us into immoral wars again and again, I believe that David Ray Griffin's provocative questions about 9/11 deserve to be investigated and addressed.”—-Howard Zinn, author of A People’s History of the United States
"Professor Griffin is the nemesis of the 9/11 cover-up. This new book destroys the credibility of the NIST and Popular Mechanics reports and annihilates his critics."---Paul Craig Roberts, Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury during the Reagan administration
“David Ray Griffin hits another one out of the park by taking on the left gatekeepers and the mass media for the lies and cover-up called ‘the official story of 9/11/01,’ which is the greatest conspiracy theory ever perpetrated on the American public. I highly recommend this book for all thinking Americans.”---Meria Heller, Producer Host of the Meria Heller Show (www.meria.net (http://www.meria.net/)).

[stateofgrace]

Hey, the guy asked me if I was a Bush hater. I said yes and gave him the reasons for it.

Sure, but we get this little complication. If Bush did 911, you are in fact doing a helluva job defending him.

No Pagan I have stated and will restate I am not defending Bush. I am like you after the truth. I see facts that have been presented by many independent experts and many independent researchers that support the official version of events. The official version by the way was not manufactured by the Bush administration it came from many sources including those involved. It is incidental that the USG embrace it. They, USG did not make it up; it came from a massive independent investigation


That's also our view in the truth movement. Exept for the "planning it all" part. They can hardly be described as innocent? Most people who were a part of the operation are innocent. They just followed orders as patiots.


How can people who are part of a mass murder plot be innocent Pagan? They cannot be, they know, they have known for five years that they are part of a cover up of mass murder. They are part of it. There are no minor roles in mass murder, you are perfectly innocent or you are totally guilty.



I'm of course, when naming Bush, not meaning Bush personally, I am talking about the Bush adm.

As how many people the operation needed? Who knows, it would necessarily not mean so many. Planting the explosives? Perhaps 20-30?
If we could get a truly objective and independent investigation, we could separate the guilty from the innocents. As it stands now many innocents risk to be blamed.



20-30? You are kidding right? NIST alone employed over 200 interdependent experts and engineers to help them. Look at the logistics involved, look at the massive task of wiring the Towers, ensuring the planes missed all the explosives, the people who detonated the explosives. They people who removed all the evidence. It goes on and on, it is like a ripple in a pond, getting bigger and bigger, until it is simply impossible to contain.
You are kidding yourself if you believe it would involve only 20 to 30 people. Also bear in mind that this is but one conspiracy. Take the rest, the Pentagon, Flight 93, WTC 7, framing Al Qaeda, the NWO agenda. The list simply gets bigger and bigger. If it was so easy and took so few people to pull off 911 then why are you so reluctant to accept that 19 guys did it? They simply got on four planes and slammed three of them into buildings full of innocent people. Simple, nothing complex.


It is exactly the case that Bush is a "James Bond style bad guy hell bent on world domination". As proven both by several documents calling for "full spectrum dominance". The only superpower" etc
And by his acts, he has without reason attacked 2 countries using lies, killed many innocent people



The US invaded Iraq because at the time it was believed they had WMD. This was later proved wrong, yes you are correct. But they did not go alone, the UK went them as did, I believe some 21 other coalition countries. The Iraq war is a mess and it is now reflected in the opinion polls about the present US administration. Yes they did use 911 as political muscle to rollover the United Nations, but Pagan this does not mean that 911 was specifically engineered to make this happen. Iraq and Afghanistan are results of 911 but as unsavoury as they maybe,it does not mean that this is one massive master plan.


We truthers are certainly not supporting any conspiracies. You are the one supporting and defending a conspiracy theory. The "official" CT. Dubya's silly little story. We are the sceptics who are questioning it, because we simply don't believe in it. We are not that gullible.


No you are not questioning a silly little Dubya story. He and the current administration did not make up this story. As explained it comes from many credible, independent sources.
You are questioning these people, you are questioning those involved, and you are questioning perfectly innocent engineers and scientists who work for NIST. You are calling anybody who will not embrace these theories liars and supporters of mass murder.
Facts, Pagan, that is all that matters, show me facts, show me the evidence that 911 was an inside job. Put aside your hatred of Bush and your loathing of America and show me facts.
To date, after five years the truth movement has none. They have silly conspiracy theories. They have no alternative thesis, nothing that will stand up in court. Every single one of theories are internet based only. Here they stay, being torn apart daily.


I see that you are also using the ridiculous argument, used by Monbiot etc. That questioning 911 is bad for the truly noble cause of stopping the Bush adm's disastrous ME policy. This argument takes the prize. It simply is the dumbest ever.



The dumbest argument ever is the one based on no facts. This is the one you side with. You have abandoned you own logic, common sense and any desire to find out the truth. You prefer now to simply spew rhetoric at those who will not agree with you. You use now and have always used the “I don’t like Bush, you don’t agree with me, so you love him” argument. It is as lame now as it was when you first used it.
If you really want to contribute to solving the ME crisis you would at least take the time to try understand it. You would at least acknowledge that Bush did not create the ME mess, it was a mess long before 911.
Individuals from the Middle East declared War on the US long before Bush came to office, in fact during the 90’s some 40% of all terrorist actions were directed at US interests and US persons.Not bad for a country that makes up 5% of the worlds population eh ?
No ,Pagan,911 did not create the Middle East Crisis; it was there long before, you failed to recognise it then as you do now. You fail to even acknowledge the real hatred that has been harboured out there and exploded on 911. Your failure is the root cause of the problems; because you have not learnt your lesson, you did not get the wake up message that was 911.


So, to get a new objective independent investigation of the 911 events will boost the Bush adm's ME policy? Don't be stoopid. It would of course be very negative. Especially since his adm has used 911 as a pretext for those policies.

I have no idea what on earth you are talking about here so will not even respond.


Whatever happened at 911. If the Bush adm were involved or not. The Bush adm deserves hate for what they have done in ME. 100 000's of innocent people have died as a result.


And finally all that is wrong in the world is down to Bush and co, so naturally they killed 3000 of their own to achieve all this.

Lame Pagan, very lame.

[ConspiRaider]

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Availible at http://www.amazon.com/Debunking-11-Mechanics-Defenders-Conspiracy/dp/156656686X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-0163907-5598524?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173474668&sr=8-1


David Ray Griffin's latest book. Here are some reviews.
Screw those reviews. With a big giant knobby petrified corn cob, sideways.

Here's my review:

This guy Griffin's a real work of art, ain't he? Why doesn't he debunk the Bible or something? He is, after all, a theologian. What does this dude know about NIST? Betcha he didn't even know what it stood for prior to 9/11. Does this esteemed Griffin know that the NIST keeps the official time for the United States? Why didn't he come out with a book called: Time Was An Inside Job, OR Debunking The Lying False Face Of My Rolex That Those Evil NIST Shills Told To Display Some Stupid Abstract Concept Known As The 4th Dimension Yeah Like BITE ME, NIST!

[CHF]

As how many people the operation needed? Who knows, it would necessarily not mean so many. Planting the explosives? Perhaps 20-30?
If we could get a truly objective and independent investigation, we could separate the guilty from the innocents.

:faint: Not this crap again.

Pagan: WHO SHOULD CONDUCT A NEW INVESTIGATION?

Who would you trust?

Names someone you would not immediately disregard as a "shill" should they reach a conclusion you don't like.

[beachnut]

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Availible at http://www.amazon.com/Debunking-11-Mechanics-Defenders-Conspiracy/dp/156656686X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-0163907-5598524?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173474668&sr=8-1


David Ray Griffin's latest book. Here are some reviews.He is the hearsay king of 9/11 trash talk. You better buy this so you can support those who lie about 9/11. How does it feel to be taken for a fool and believe lies about 9/11? Most truthers are too challenged to know better.

If David Ray Griffin found a fact on 9/11 it would be a magic. He is telling lies but does it with hearsay. Like Webster Tarpley. The books should be titled "Lies We Tell Real Dumb People about 9/11".

[CHF]

Has David Ray Griffin ever debated someone on 9/11?

He would be a lamb to the slaughter since he refuses to disregard ANY twoofer talking points, preferring to stick to every tenet as though it were a religion.

You'd almost think he were a theologist or something.

[ConspiRaider]

Has David Ray Griffin ever debated someone on 9/11?

He would be a lamb to the slaughter since he refuses to disregard ANY twoofer talking points, preferring to stick to every tenet as though it were a religion.

You'd almost think he were a theologist or something.
Imagine if The Griffter met up with Gravy in a debate? New book right afterwards by The Griffter:

Brain Rapture: Debunking my Debunking 9/11 Debunking

[T.A.M.]

He should add at the end of the book the following...

"Fifty cents from the purchase of this book will go towards a plane ticket for Dylan Avery to go to Saudi Arabia and interview the alive hijackers."

TAM:)

[ktesibios]

I'm too tired to figure out exactly which logical fallacy is embodied in pagan's "you're defending Bush by debunking 9/11 PCTs because if Bush did 9/11 you're defending him". I think there's something circular there, but the taxonomy can @#$% well wait. I can, however, smell the bad logic the way I can detect and identify the odor of burnt circuitry at concentrations so low that normal people can't tell there's a smell of anything.

I've got just enough firing synapses for a bit of a rant:

I'm truly @#$%ing $%^&*# @$@#%! fed up with CTer ideologues projecting their own political paranoia onto anyone and everyone who doesn't accept their pet conspiracy theory.

For the record, I'll state that I am accurately described as a liberal Democrat and an atheist, that I oppose a great many of the current administration's beliefs and policies, that this is as far into politics or religion as I intend ever to go in this forum and that it has nothing whatsoever to do with my opinion of any particular PCT.

What is being defended by people seeking out the evidence concerning a CT and evaluating it logically isn't a President, or a party, or a policy or an ideology. It's the very principle that reality can best be interrogated by means derived from the scientific method and that external reality doesn't know or care about anyone's political beliefs.

Paranoid conspiracism and the people who adhere to it happen to be an interest of mine, and participating in a group learning experience about how to engage in evidence-based thinking and how that process can go wrong is something that is useful for myself and, I hope, for others.

"Show me the evidence and explain how you reason from it" skepticism just seems to grow naturally from twenty-odd years as a professional troubleshooter. That's all there is to it.

So, would everyone who proposes to judge other peoples' politics on the basis of their opinion of conspiracist narratives, and to imply that those politics are the cause of said opinion kindly just stuff it? TIA.

:mad:

[stilicho]

This wasn't why I started this thread. It's not about whether 9.11 truthers are right or not.

It was about whether deconstructed theologies lead inevitably to "activist pastoring" along the lines of what Griffin, Shuck, Borg and Crossan do.

Is it helpful? Dangerous? Something in between?

[pagan]

Screw those reviews. With a big giant knobby petrified corn cob, sideways.

Here's my review:

This guy Griffin's a real work of art, ain't he? Why doesn't he debunk the Bible or something? He is, after all, a theologian. What does this dude know about NIST? Betcha he didn't even know what it stood for prior to 9/11. Does this esteemed Griffin know that the NIST keeps the official time for the United States? Why didn't he come out with a book called: Time Was An Inside Job, OR Debunking The Lying False Face Of My Rolex That Those Evil NIST Shills Told To Display Some Stupid Abstract Concept Known As The 4th Dimension Yeah Like BITE ME, NIST!


No kidding? NIST is reponsible for timekeeping.

No wonder you guys are in trouble. You live in troubled times.

The time is out of joint; O cursed spite! That ever we truthers were born to set it right!

[jhunter1163]

Screw those reviews. With a big giant knobby petrified corn cob, sideways.

Here's my review:

This guy Griffin's a real work of art, ain't he? Why doesn't he debunk the Bible or something? He is, after all, a theologian. What does this dude know about NIST? Betcha he didn't even know what it stood for prior to 9/11. Does this esteemed Griffin know that the NIST keeps the official time for the United States? Why didn't he come out with a book called: Time Was An Inside Job, OR Debunking The Lying False Face Of My Rolex That Those Evil NIST Shills Told To Display Some Stupid Abstract Concept Known As The 4th Dimension Yeah Like BITE ME, NIST!


Nominated! And I'll hold you responsible if my keyboard fails after I sprayed it with milk while laughing...

[ConspiRaider]

No kidding? NIST is reponsible for timekeeping.

No wonder you guys are in trouble. You live in troubled times.

The time is out of joint; O cursed spite! That ever we truthers were born to set it right!
Check yer watch, buddy:
http://tf.nist.gov/

That sage saying of your'n: Couldn't keep the word joint (AKA Big Fatty) out of it, eh?

A little less puffing and a little more proofing, twoofer.

[stilicho]

This guy Griffin's a real work of art, ain't he? Why doesn't he debunk the Bible or something?
Actually that's what he does, in a way, and that's my point about him.

Among Christian panentheists, the divinity of Christ is very much in question as is the omnipotence of God. This leads to a debauchery of religion into a (sorta) supreme "good" on earth--perhaps in Islamic extremism?--and a (sorta) supreme "evil" on earth--perhaps in Dick Cheney's scowl.

Does anyone here actually read much Griffin or Borg apart from the 9/11 stuff? Anyone familiar with panentheism?

[stateofgrace]

No kidding? NIST is reponsible for timekeeping.

No wonder you guys are in trouble. You live in troubled times.

The time is out of joint; O cursed spite! That ever we truthers were born to set it right!

Actually NIST can put forward a bunch of credentials, bit like this.


NIST scientists have earned three Nobel Prizes over the last eight years


http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/NIST_Did_you_know.htm

Hey Pagan read some more and look seriously at the people you are calling liars.

[Dave Rogers]

Does anyone here actually read much Griffin or Borg apart from the 9/11 stuff?

This could, of course, be seen as a major financial motive for Griffin to spin out the 9/11 stuff for as long as he can manage. Didn't one of the CT'ers here post a quote about the difficulty of convincing someone to disbelieve something when his salary depends on continuing to believe it?

Dave

[stilicho]

I don't see that as motive in his case, Dave. This isn't Ruppert we're talking about. Try this link:

http://bsimmons.wordpress.com/2007/02/13/the-religious-left-vs-demonic-america/

That might start you to see that Griffin's is a startlingly genuine philosophy with some influence among largely Protestant, largely non or inter-denominational pastors.

[Dave Rogers]

I don't see that as motive in his case, Dave. This isn't Ruppert we're talking about. Try this link:

http://bsimmons.wordpress.com/2007/02/13/the-religious-left-vs-demonic-america/

That might start you to see that Griffin's is a startlingly genuine philosophy with some influence among largely Protestant, largely non or inter-denominational pastors.

I had a quick look, and the article seemed to suggest that Griffin's views were seen as outdated and irrelevant even by the people who would most itbe expected to support them. Maybe it's not the money, maybe it's just that his 9/11 writings are getting him a lot more attention. Nobody likes to be ignored.

I know this is rather ad hominem, but there's not really anything left to attack in Griffin's actual arguments on 9/11.

Dave

[ref]

Paul Craig Roberts is some seriously mislead character.

Just look what he says about David Ray Griffin and his latest book:



Griffin is a person who is sensitive to evidence, logic, and scientific reasoning. There is no counterpart on the official side of the story who is as fully informed on all aspects of the attacks as Griffin.

http://vdare.com/roberts/070326_evidence.htm

Made me laugh.

That page includes some descriptions of what Griffin's book Debunking 9/11 Debunking includes. The same old lies.

[stilicho]

Again, I understand that Griffin is misled (and misleading). I was simply explaining his motive. It goes very much hand-in-hand with his theology. Process theology and panentheism are rather unusual in their approach and seem to lead ineluctably to conclusions such as Griffin's. His starting point is that the omnipotence of any deity is questionable and that, eventually, one comes to see the personification of both "God" and "Satan" in human endeavours.

His reticence to accept omnipotence as a part of the definition of "God" is probably not too different than that of most of the posters on this board. It's the combination of that philosophy with a search for "Satan" in everything in the world (ending, it seems, with the Americans and their government) that leads him to his "new Pearl Harbour".

In short, he's a nut, but a fairly thoughtful one.

[stilicho]

Took a look at that review, too. Are the nuts still insisting that Flight 77 was 'vaporised'? It wasn't, of course, and nothing I've seen in 'official' reports ever said that it was.

Am I missing something?