Freedom to Fascism

[Axiom_Blade]

This lady at the local Green Party has been raving up and down about how I have to see this new documentary by some guy named Aaron Russo, From Freedom to Fascism. (http://www.freedomtofascism.com/) You can, of course, see it for free on Google Video. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198&q=freedom+to+fascism)

Apparently, it's some kind of a tax protestor movie. She was telling me all this stuff like how income tax is unconstitutional, because "income" doesn't mean wages, and the Federal Reserve is actually a private corporation that the USG pays off with our income tax, and how the Supreme Court decided that income tax was unconstitutional, but lower courts just ignore that, and and...

According to the website:
This is shocking stuff. You'll be angry, you'll be disgusted, but you may actually break out in a cold sweat and feel a sickness deep in your gut; I would advise movie theatre managers to hand out vomit bags. You may end up needing one.


Hhhhmmm. I'll eat a light lunch.

[scooby]

This lady at the local Green Party has been raving up and down about how I have to see this new documentary by some guy named Aaron Russo, From Freedom to Fascism. (http://www.freedomtofascism.com/) You can, of course, see it for free on Google Video. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198&q=freedom+to+fascism)

Apparently, it's some kind of a tax protestor movie. She was telling me all this stuff like how income tax is unconstitutional, because "income" doesn't mean wages, and the Federal Reserve is actually a private corporation that the USG pays off with our income tax, and how the Supreme Court decided that income tax was unconstitutional, but lower courts just ignore that, and and...

According to the website:


Hhhhmmm. I'll eat a light lunch.

I can't wait to see 'science' debunk this one.
You'll be 'debunking' poetry next, or recipes.

Gravy ... ?

No way - debunked!

[DavidJames]

I can't wait to see 'science' debunk this one.
You'll be 'debunking' poetry next, or recipes.
Is there any woo, quackery, CT, you don't jump into with both booties?

[tacodaemon]

The Tax Protester FAQ (http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html) debunks a huge pile of their common assertions. Its author Dan Evans is like the Gravy of tax-protester-myth debunkers.

[scooby]

Is there any woo, quackery, CT, you don't jump into with both booties?

Plenty - count the threads.

About The Pyramids - debunked?

[Axiom_Blade]

I like how all of these have been pretty much laughed out of court.

"But, your honor, see, it's not reeeeaaally income...."

[Axiom_Blade]

I can't wait to see 'science' debunk this one.
You'll be 'debunking' poetry next, or recipes.

Gravy ... ?

No way - debunked!

If you don't want debunkings, why are you hanging out on a skeptic forum?
That's like writing a letter to Hustler, complaining about all the nudity.

[Arus808]

And the Tax Protester Hall of Shame:

Tax Protester Hall of Shame (http://web.archive.org/web/20011129083542/http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2278/)

Anti-IRS Theories a/k/a Tax Protestor Junk (http://www.quatloos.com/taxscams/taxprot.htm)

and straight from the IRS:

The Truth About Frivolous Tax Arguments (http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=159853,00.html)

[T.A.M.]

If you don't want debunkings, why are you hanging out on a skeptic forum?
That's like writing a letter to Hustler, complaining about all the nudity.

1. He is without intellect and thinks he is going to "change" our views with his superior knowledge of what "really" happened on 9/11.

2. He is the "annoying guy" from highschool who made an ass of himself simply to annoy everyone else.

3. Both 1 and 2.

TAM:)

[Dr. Lao]

Hey Scooby, aren't you supposed to be finding us film and audio of the very loud explosive charges you claim brought down the WTC?

Or, are you trying to just hide in another goofy conspiracy?

[carlvs]

This lady at the local Green Party has been raving up and down about how I have to see this new documentary by some guy named Aaron Russo, From Freedom to Fascism. (http://www.freedomtofascism.com/) You can, of course, see it for free on Google Video. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198&q=freedom+to+fascism)

It's sad to see someone go so far off the deep end - especially considering his past...:jaw-dropp (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1929270#post1929270)

[negativ]

When the very title vaguely implies the US is a Fascist state, that's kind of a giveaway right there that even if it has a good point or two to make, it's going to be filled with paranoid, idiotic hyperbole.

I often wonder how people who really have lived under Fascist regimes, or in real police states feel when they hear some raving loon going on and on about how the US is a police state run by jackbooted thug Fascists. It's really embarrassing to me. Right here where I work, there's a man who grew up in Soviet Russia, another man who grew up in Bulgaria during Soviet days, still another guy who escaped Cambodia when the Khmer announced on state-controlled radio that "to keep you is no benefit, to kill you is no loss" and started herding men, women, and children into the killing fields by the hundreds of thousands and forcing them to dig their own mass graves. I don't have anywhere near the audacity to ask one of them what they think of spoiled goobers who think the US is the deepest pit of hell.

But I am curious about it.

[scooby]

If you don't want debunkings, why are you hanging out on a skeptic forum?
That's like writing a letter to Hustler, complaining about all the nudity.

I came here to get cutting edge analysis of the govt and corporate malfeasance that has been running rampant this past few years, but strangely, all this place seems geared up to do is attack anyone who mentions such a thing. That makes me skeptical. You ever heard of Astroturfing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing

[scooby]

Hey Scooby, aren't you supposed to be finding us film and audio of the very loud explosive charges you claim brought down the WTC?

Or, are you trying to just hide in another goofy conspiracy?

Eggs ... debunked?

[scooby]

Bear in mind oh 'debunkers' that at the heart of "From Freedom to Fascism" is the issue of the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank and the fact that there seems to be no law in the US that demands you pay tax on wages. "Show me the law", is the demand that these people are making - and no law can be shown.

Now we all hate the taxman don't we?
Don't we?

Because I think people browsing this place might find it odd, a bunch of 'skeptics' eagerly attacking anyone who would want to remove such a tax.

So tone it down a bit, or you'll give the game away.

[Dr. Lao]

Hey scooby, how come you haven't shown us videos with the sound of the detonators going off?

You made the outrageous claims, now, be a man and prove them.


Scooby, nice try on the deal about not having to pay taxes, I'm sure that Larken Rose and Dick Simkanin are real happy with that logic as they sit in a PMITA prison these days.

[scooby]

Hey scooby, how come you haven't shown us videos with the sound of the detonators going off?

You made the outrageous claims, now, be a man and prove them.


Scooby, nice try on the deal about not having to pay taxes, I'm sure that Larken Rose and Dick Simkanin are real happy with that logic as they sit in a PMITA prison these days.

Because you've already seen them.

As for the tax issue, the only honest reponse to something like that should be curiousity, not immediate dismissal.

[gumboot]

When the very title vaguely implies the US is a Fascist state, that's kind of a giveaway right there that even if it has a good point or two to make, it's going to be filled with paranoid, idiotic hyperbole.

I often wonder how people who really have lived under Fascist regimes, or in real police states feel when they hear some raving loon going on and on about how the US is a police state run by jackbooted thug Fascists.



I know exactly how you feel. I feel the same way. It's like when people start yammering about racism here in New Zealand, and I consider people who grew up in, for example, South Africa.

World War Two and the following Cold War cast a very dark shadow over humanity. Words like "facist", "police state", and "Nazi" have profound connotations. Yet the further we move from those historic events, the more young people throw these terms around as they please - utterly oblivious and ignorant of what they really mean.

-Gumboot

[scooby]

I know exactly how you feel. I feel the same way. It's like when people start yammering about racism here in New Zealand, and I consider people who grew up in, for example, South Africa.

World War Two and the following Cold War cast a very dark shadow over humanity. Words like "facist", "police state", and "Nazi" have profound connotations. Yet the further we move from those historic events, the more young people throw these terms around as they please - utterly oblivious and ignorant of what they really mean.

-Gumboot

What does Fascism mean?

You can't spell it, but you talk like you know all about it - so go on - enlighten us.

[gumboot]

What does Fascism mean?

You can't spell it, but you talk like you know all about it - so go on - enlighten us.


...

"Facist" is also a word, Scooby.

-Gumboot

[Axiom_Blade]

From here: (http://www.tfd.com/fascism)

fas·cism
n.
1. often Fascism
a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.


So, where's the part about out-of-control corporations that I always hear kooks talking about?

[Obviousman]

What does Fascism mean?

You can't spell it, but you talk like you know all about it - so go on - enlighten us.

1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
3. (initial capital letter) a fascist movement, esp. the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922–43.

There you go. Glad to be of service.

[negativ]

What does Fascism mean?

You can't spell it, but you talk like you know all about it - so go on - enlighten us.

Instead, I'll coin a new word:

Scoobyism
Scoo.by.ism [skoo-bee-iz-uh-m]
- n
1. a style of debate, conversation, or discourse that intentionally avoids the idea(s) or fact(s) being discussed in order to shift focus onto some irrelevant or tangential detail;
2. pathology compulsive inability to engage in honest debate, with a tendency toward preferring dogma over reason

[Loss Leader]

I got about ten minutes into that pile of [rule8].

Here is the bottom line for the idiot tax protestors: The law says whatever we, through our justice system, agree it says. Since out courts are absolutely united in agreeing that the law does require the payment of income tax (and have been for ninety years), there is no argument otherwise.

That's the whole debunk right there.

[Hokulele]

Scooby, please read this thread, especially the posts by AS.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2383816#post2383816

If you still feel the way you do, feel free to take it up with him.

[Horatius]

Now we all hate the taxman don't we?
Don't we?

Because I think people browsing this place might find it odd, a bunch of 'skeptics' eagerly attacking anyone who would want to remove such a tax.



Classic goalpost move. If these guys were making an honest argument to remove or reduce the current tax burden, we wouldn't be heaping scorn on them - we might disagree, but we wouldn't think they were whacko.

But they aren't doing that. What they are doing is spinning bizzaro fantasy stories about how there are no current tax burdens, because of some obscure misunderstanding on their part. This is clearly wrong, and has been shown to be wrong in several court cases, and yet they still persist in their delusions.

That's what we're dismissing. Hate taxes all you want, but don't expect us to buy some bogus argument about how wages aren't income, or any of the other nonsense these guys spew.

Seriously - if there actually was no law that required you to pay taxes on "wages", why wouldn't they simply write one? Almost everyone does that already, so it wouldn't even be an added burden!

[Axiom_Blade]

Scooby, please read this thread, especially the posts by AS.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2383816#post2383816

If you still feel the way you do, feel free to take it up with him.

Oh....dear...lord.
I only made it to page 2 of that thread.
WOW.

Thing is, I used to know a guy who argued just like that. He "won" every argument.
Because people couldn't talk to him for longer than 5 minutes.

[OMGturt1es]

i wanted to waste some time watching this video, but i can't take the narrator's voice. it annoys me greatly.

[Totovader]

Bear in mind oh 'debunkers' that at the heart of "From Freedom to Fascism" is the issue of the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank and the fact that there seems to be no law in the US that demands you pay tax on wages. "Show me the law", is the demand that these people are making - and no law can be shown.

Now we all hate the taxman don't we?
Don't we?

Because I think people browsing this place might find it odd, a bunch of 'skeptics' eagerly attacking anyone who would want to remove such a tax.

So tone it down a bit, or you'll give the game away.

The problem is- as with most conspiracists and conspiracies- the central issue is being obfuscated by your political bias. If you're actually interested in doing away with a tax system- what makes you think "hating the taxman" and going off on a nutbar ridiculous diatribe complete with tinhat wearing rain dancers is going to make your case?

It's self-defeating.

Your strawman speaks volumes for this attitude- the skeptics here who have a point are not attacking "anyone who would want to remove such a tax"- they are attacking the method of putting on a jester costume and cawing like a raving lunatic in order to try and make a point. That's what skeptics and debunkers do, we point out the wackjobs.

[Hokulele]

Oh....dear...lord.
I only made it to page 2 of that thread.
WOW.

Well, I apologize for about 90% of that thread (including my snarkiness there), but the serious responses pretty much take care of any arguments the tax protesters bring up.

[scooby]

Scooby, please read this thread, especially the posts by AS.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2383816#post2383816

If you still feel the way you do, feel free to take it up with him.

No thank you, I'm not interested in some second hand discussion tossed at me. I do make a point of never following these links people post to old threads - what's at the end of it all eh? Picture of Uri Geller?

[scooby]

...

"Facist" is also a word, Scooby.

-Gumboot

World War Two and the following Cold War cast a very dark shadow over humanity. Words like "facist", "police state", and "Nazi" have profound connotations. Yet the further we move from those historic events, the more young people throw these terms around as they please - utterly oblivious and ignorant of what they really mean.

[Hokulele]

No thank you, I'm not interested in some second hand discussion tossed at me. I do make a point of never following these links people post to old threads - what's at the end of it all eh? Picture of Uri Geller?


At the end of it was the answer to your question, and a response to your complaint.

[scooby]

Classic goalpost move. If these guys were making an honest argument to remove or reduce the current tax burden, we wouldn't be heaping scorn on them - we might disagree, but we wouldn't think they were whacko.

Now this would be a lofty post almost worth reading if it wasn't for one sorry and certain fact - you haven't watched the film have you?

[scooby]

The problem is

Have you watched the film?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Translation: "Waah! The path is too long and too old! It's not paved and cool! I don't want to walk it! I don't wanna!"

[scooby]

Not a very educational or informed bunch on here are you?
It really makes me skeptical.

Let me help you all out. There are some wonderful definitions of fascism available for the competent skeptic - you could just look up the dictionary definition of course, but with a complex issue such as this I find something meatier is justified.

Your one stop shop these days of course is Wikipedia, which no doubt is why it hasn't been mentioned, it covers the subject very well ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

But for the ultimate soundbite and handy reference, I really don't think you can beat the "14 Characteristics of Fascism" as defined by political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt and recited here by good old Mike Malloy ...

http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/9/11/214131/14_Characteristics_of_Fascism.mp3

I'm frankly shocked that people who call themselves a 'skeptic' can't explain the topic in any depth, but then again, when you look at the list - what more could you expect?

I'd add one more characteristic from my observations this past few years, a handy euphemism within any laymans grasp ...

15: The **** floats to the top.

[scooby]

At the end of it was the answer to your question, and a response to your complaint.

Are you saying that you know the answer to my question and are able to respond to my complaint? Well, maybe you should have - because no ones listening now bud.

[Hokulele]

Are you saying that you know the answer to my question and are able to respond to my complaint? Well, maybe you should have - because no ones listening now bud.


No, I was saying that the thread held the answer to your question and a response to your complaint. Particularly the posts by AS. If you are not interested in the answer, that's fine. There are lurkers or other posters here who may be interested, and are "listening" and learning things by clicking on the link.

PS - Wrong gender in the "bud" comment.

[gumboot]

World War Two and the following Cold War cast a very dark shadow over humanity. Words like "facist", "police state", and "Nazi" have profound connotations. Yet the further we move from those historic events, the more young people throw these terms around as they please - utterly oblivious and ignorant of what they really mean.


Are you aware that quoting other people without citing it as their words is a violation of your membership agreement?

I know what I wrote.

"Facist" is a word. That's what I intended to write. Thus your claim that I spelt "facism" wrong is incorrect.

Next time you post my words as yours I will report it.

-Gumboot

[scooby]

Are you aware that quoting other people without citing it as their words is a violation of your membership agreement?

I know what I wrote.

"Facist" is a word. That's what I intended to write. Thus your claim that I spelt "facism" wrong is incorrect.

Next time you post my words as yours I will report it.

-Gumboot

I wasn't quoting you, I was repeating your own words back to you.
Also known as 'handing you your ass on a plate'.

And spelling facist without an 's' is a common mistake that young people make - throwing these terms around as they please - utterly oblivious and ignorant of what they really mean.

That the US has institutionalised the practice is no concern of mine.

And while we're at it - sort your numeric date format out - MM/DD/YY - what clown came up with that?

[scooby]

No, I was saying that the thread held the answer to your question and a response to your complaint. Particularly the posts by AS. If you are not interested in the answer, that's fine. There are lurkers or other posters here who may be interested, and are "listening" and learning things by clicking on the link.

PS - Wrong gender in the "bud" comment.

Well that's up to them.

They'd learn more if they stayed away from the place - quoting old threads seems to be the lazy way out of an argument here. It's not something I respond to 'rosebud'.

[Hokulele]

Well that's up to them.

They'd learn more if they stayed away from the place - quoting old threads seems to be the lazy way out of an argument here. It's not something I respond to 'rosebud'.


Seeing as how you do not plan to read the thread, you are not qualified to judge whether or not they would learn anything there. If you change your mind and decide to read it after all, then any judgements you make from then on would have some validity.

"Rosebud" is much more apt. Thank you. Or are you suggesting I am a sled?

[Totovader]

Have you watched the film?

Yes, not that it's relevant.

Can you address my points now?

[Yaters]

Actually, I'm more of a lurker than a poster, and I always go back to the links provided and read the discussions.

It's lazy not to, especially since the topic has already been discussed. Not once have I seen anyone open a new thread about an old topic with anything worth the new thread. It's always the same retread.

By the way, Scooby, here's my conspiracy theory: I think you're related to Dylan.

EVIDENCE: Your name is Scooby, Scooby ate Scooby snacks because he and Shaggy were always high, and Dylan is from Oneonta(I went to college at a SUNY school, our hockey rival was Oneonta) and Oneonta's nickname? Stoneonta.

And if you're too high to get the joke, the case I made holds about as much water as any case the Truthers make, or the Anti-Taxman people make.

And chill out, I'm only kidding. Maybe.:eye-poppi

[Totovader]

I wasn't quoting you, I was repeating your own words back to you.
Also known as 'handing you your ass on a plate'.

And spelling facist without an 's' is a common mistake that young people make - throwing these terms around as they please - utterly oblivious and ignorant of what they really mean.

That the US has institutionalised the practice is no concern of mine.

And while we're at it - sort your numeric date format out - MM/DD/YY - what clown came up with that?

...

Do you realize that you not only spelled fascist without the "s", but you also misspelled institutionalized when you said you didn't care bout the US institutionalized practice- and then turned around and took a jab at European date formatting, because you are used to the US institutionalized version?

That's funny to me.

[gumboot]

I wasn't quoting you, I was repeating your own words back to you.
Also known as 'handing you your ass on a plate'.


Also known as violating your membership agreement.




And spelling facist without an 's' is a common mistake that young people make


I'm with you now. Oops, you got me. :o Fascist. Fascism. My bad.




That the US has institutionalised the practice is no concern of mine.

And while we're at it - sort your numeric date format out - MM/DD/YY - what clown came up with that?


Er... you know I'm not an American, right?

-Gumboot

[beachnut]

What does Fascism mean?

You can't spell it, but you talk like you know all about it - so go on - enlighten us.
Are you really this challenged? You act and sound just like pdoh but not as...

You argue spelling and spam the thread off topic, quibble about words, then you continue to make no sense about the thread just asking real bad questions, you could and should be able to answer yourself. You have failed to make a point except that you can not handle good advice. You fail to research the thread topic to get a background common to those who started the thread. You then continue, with veiled badgering and attempted claims that others have no idea how great your comprehension of the subject is, and at the same time prove you are without facts about the thread at all.

If you are not Pdoh, you are his intellectual twin or equal; your pick.

[ArmillarySphere]

I would just like to add that the "income calculation" is completely bogus.
Gain is not the difference in the values of what is exchanged, it is the difference between the cost of what is given up and the value of what is received.

In terms of stocks, if you buy a share for $10 and sell it for $40, your gain is $30 even though the share had a true value of $40 when you sold it. To use scooby's math, that would be another situation with a zero income...

In terms of labour - labour doesn't even have an intrinsic value. Instead, they get paid a compensation (wage), with a distinct value, in return for services (labour). However, their labour has no cost, so the full value of the compensation is the gain, and thus their income.

The same holds true when you spend your spare time making pottery, and a few years later decide to sell it. It doesn't matter what the "value" of the item sold is, really - that's highly dependant on your skill and artistry anyway, hardly something with a precise value. Instead, you can deduce what the costs were to produce it and deduct that.

[njslim]

EVIDENCE: Your name is Scooby, Scooby ate Scooby snacks because he and Shaggy were always high, and Dylan is from Oneonta(I went to college at a SUNY school, our hockey rival was Oneonta) and Oneonta's nickname? Stoneonta.


Yea Yater - I'm from that part of New York, Oneonta State was something
of a joke. Used to say that some of the finest gym or kindergarten teachers
in the world pasted throught it.

[Horatius]

Now this would be a lofty post almost worth reading if it wasn't for one sorry and certain fact - you haven't watched the film have you?



And having subjected myself to way too much of that, perhaps you could direct me to anywhere in that "film" that contains an argument about taxes that isn't a completely bogus argument against the tax system? Lots of complaints about bankers, lots of repetitions of the same arguments over and over again, some RFID paranoia thrown in for the hip newness of it all, but nowhere did I see anything like a reasonable argument against legal taxation.

So, please, time stamp for such things, since I missed them?

[Horatius]

And while I'm at it: what's with the people who make these "documentaries" that makes them drag everything out for so damn long? The actual information content of that thing could have been compressed into about 20 minutes - the rest was just mindless repetition of the same points.

Edit, damnit!

[Loss Leader]

In terms of labour - labour doesn't even have an intrinsic value. Instead, they get paid a compensation (wage), with a distinct value, in return for services (labour). However, their labour has no cost, so the full value of the compensation is the gain, and thus their income.

To be fair, that's only true legally. It's true because we have chosen to define it that way. Philosophically, of course, there is no reason why one's labor shouldn't be considered to have a cost basis - the cost of not doing other things, the cost of the food it took to give you the energy to do it, the cost of the education it took to prepare you, etc. There's no logical reason for excluding labor from having a cost basis other than that this is how we've chosen to tax ourselves ... which is reason enough for me.

One of my favorite cases was a woman decades ago with a very rare blood type who was paid exceedingly well for her blood. She argued to the IRS that her blood was a thing, that its cost was the same as what she was paid, and that she therefore owed no tax on it. She lost; the courts said that giving blood was akin to labor, that her cost basis in the blood was zero and that she had to pay taxes on the gain.

[Darth Rotor]

Instead, I'll coin a new word:

Scoobyism
Scoo.by.ism [skoo-bee-iz-uh-m]
- n
1. a style of debate, conversation, or discourse that intentionally avoids the idea(s) or fact(s) being discussed in order to shift focus onto some irrelevant or tangential detail;
2. pathology compulsive inability to engage in honest debate, with a tendency toward preferring dogma over reason
Nice post, but I regret to inform you that the Sith Dictionary has already defined "scoobyism" a bit differently. You of course could not know this, as you are not sensitive to the Force.

Scoobyism [skoo-bee-iz-uh-m]
- n
1. a style of internet forum and newsgroup posting characterized by incoherence, irrationality, misplaced arrogance, and illogic induced by the replacement of 50% of the poster's cerebral cortex with excrement.

2. pathology of compulsive posting from a position of profound ignorance.
Give in to the dark side. :)

DR

[scooby]

The problem is- as with most conspiracists and conspiracies- the central issue is being obfuscated by your political bias.

I don't have a political bias - I'm not even an american - so how neutral can you get?
In addition, the situation described in the film has existed for several generations - and through many different US administrations, so how a political bias can come into it, I don't know.

Now that didn't really take very long did it?

[scooby]

...

Do you realize that you not only spelled fascist without the "s", but you also misspelled institutionalized when you said you didn't care bout the US institutionalized practice- and then turned around and took a jab at European date formatting, because you are used to the US institutionalized version?

That's funny to me.

It was more 'ass handing', I was using gumboot's spelling. I was also using his own words again without quotes - but shh, don't tell.
The rest - I don't think so.

[scooby]

Seeing as how you do not plan to read the thread, you are not qualified to judge whether or not they would learn anything there. If you change your mind and decide to read it after all, then any judgements you make from then on would have some validity.

"Rosebud" is much more apt. Thank you. Or are you suggesting I am a sled?

OK Hokulele - a brief trip into the real world.

A great number of people, including myself, know beyond all shadow of a doubt that what happened on 911 was organised and planned by elements of the US Govt in collaboration with other Western security services. The information supporting this conclusion is overwhelming. The whole thing reads like a book with a couple of pages missing. Much of the evidence is established fact, yet all of it will be challenged here by 'skeptics' who claim that everything in the official story is true, despite the proven falsehoods it contains.

Now when I come here to post, and am immediately referred to old threads, where all this has been 'debunked' - well maybe unlike some, I'm in the fortunate position to know full well that this will not be the case, and that any reference to such a thread is a wild goose chase that costs nothing to said poster, while I spend hours reading false information. I would suggest the primary reason for this is that the defence of the official story, which is indefensible, is not something they are keen to attempt anew, and so a simple tactic is to divert people into the depths of old threads where this has been attempted before. Maybe there are a few well rehearsed sock puppet discussions where a lame '911 truther' pretends to question the offical story in an easy soft ball manner, throwing out stock 'straw man' claims which are then safely shot down - all ending in the surprise surprise conclusion - "gee, I wuz wrong".

I'm not here to argue the in's and out's of 911 with anonymous people who cannot be reasoned with for any number of obvious reasons.

We will have to agree to disagree - something, if you notice, that they have no real response to. I will be called all manner of things for maintaining my own independant conclusions on the matter. Yet this is supposed to be the philosophy that a skeptic should adhere to - independant critical thinking. All I see here is nothing of the sort, all I see here are appeals to authority, and preaching of official dogma.

You seem like a reasonable poster and I apologise for my initial gruff response, but this is the reasoning behind it. I may be a new poster here, but I am not new to discussing this on internet forums and I am well aware of the tactics used to prevent any such discussion.

At the heart of it, you may be interested to know - the number one priority of all this, is the prevention of consensus. If the illegitimate powers that be were aware of a forum where the majority of posters were aware of this and calmly discussing it, and even dare I say, moving towards the question of "What can we do about it?" - then the attack dogs will be sent in to create the impression of dissent.

I'm not saying that this is always the case, and that all supporters of the official story are government shills, or working for some of the PR company's that the Whitehouse/Pentagon is using to promote the official story and the 'war on terror' - but they are out there, and I would imagine that there are just a few here and there, acting as leaders in the effort, providing talking points for amateur imitators. There are plenty of people who know the truth of 911 but will still leap to the defence of the official story for a myriad of social and political reasons.

And incidentally, you may have missed this, but the recent revelation of the BBC video reporting the collapse of WTC7 provided an excellent insight into this process, as I think it came out of the blue and there was no prepared response seeded across the internet shill community. They were indeed caught with their pants down and finally got the spanking they deserve. The result being that nobody could get their story straight and the whole process broke down for at least a day, as lifelong New York residents frantically claimed 'Thats not Building 7!" or "Daylight Savings - it was 6 oclock"

Poorly prepared excuses at best with the lifespan of a mayfly.

It was an hilarious process to watch as it unmasked several shills on forums that I post on - and this was remarked upon not just by me. Some people were genuinely shocked that the simple fact that it was WTC7 behind the reporter as she described its collapse could not be conceded to by otherwise sane and rational people.

It took a while for them to get the story straight and things have settled down now to the only thing that can be at all defended and weakly at that, that everyone knew it was going to collapse and the BBC just reported it early by mistake. If you believe that, well I've got a bridge to sell you.

Another tactic you may notice, is to take any post of considerable length such as this, and break it down into about 15 components, challenging each and every thing I say, thus creating several hours of research and effort to correct on my part. This too is something I am well familiar with, have participated in before to my extreme satisfaction and have no intention of repeating on this forum. If you disagree with what I say, then that is because you agree to disagree, an option also open to myself.

[Dr. Lao]

Scooby, still looking for the video with the audio that has the loud sounds of the detonation charges going off on WTC.

You said you were gonna share them with us.

How come you are running away?

Oh yeah, because when you are a CT, you never have to offer proof, you just have to start another conspiracy.

Weasel

[Horatius]

Another tactic you may notice, is to take any post of considerable length such as this, and break it down into about 15 components, challenging each and every thing I say, thus creating several hours of research and effort to correct on my part. This too is something I am well familiar with, have participated in before to my extreme satisfaction and have no intention of repeating on this forum. If you disagree with what I say, then that is because you agree to disagree, an option also open to myself.




Oh, this is just too cute. You can post a long diatribe that goes off in 15 different directions, but anyone who bothers to ask you to substantiate those points with evidence is somehow not debating you fairly. Nice pre-emptive strike against being held accountable. I'm almost impressed with the complete lack of intellectual honesty this reveals.

[Redtail]

OK Hokulele - a brief trip into the real world.

A great number of people, including myself, know beyond all shadow of a doubt that what happened on 911 was organised and planned by elements of the US Govt in collaboration with other Western security services. The information supporting this conclusion is overwhelming. The whole thing reads like a book with a couple of pages missing. Much of the evidence is established fact, yet all of it will be challenged here by 'skeptics' who claim that everything in the official story is true, despite the proven falsehoods it contains.



Ok Can you point to a few of these s"established fact" and "proven falsehoods"?

[Horatius]

Ok Can you point to a few of these s"established fact" and "proven falsehoods"?



There we go, slicing his arguments up into convienent pieces of nonsense. Why can't we just accept his unsupported assertions at face value? That'd be fair!

[scooby]

I don't see James Randi responding to each and every petty demand that some charlatan makes as a result of his dissections of their 'woo'. If he did that, he'd still be on a forum somewhere arguing about it. Instead I see him post his position on his blog and leave the screaming to them.

[scooby]

Oh, this is just too cute. You can post a long diatribe that goes off in 15 different directions, but anyone who bothers to ask you to substantiate those points with evidence is somehow not debating you fairly. Nice pre-emptive strike against being held accountable. I'm almost impressed with the complete lack of intellectual honesty this reveals.

Please go ahead - if you have 15 points of contention with my post, by all means go ahead with your detailed analysis. Before you do though, I would repeat my initial assertion made early in my visit here - that the time for debate is over. This reflects an emerging consensus in the 911 truth community which I agree with.

[Hokulele]

Bear in mind oh 'debunkers' that at the heart of "From Freedom to Fascism" is the issue of the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank and the fact that there seems to be no law in the US that demands you pay tax on wages. "Show me the law", is the demand that these people are making - and no law can be shown.

[snip]


Since you were starting to repeat the exact arguments used in the thread I linked to, I decided to show people the responses to those arguments without starting another multi-page thread. Lazy? Maybe, but I prefer the term "efficient". Or "brilliant", that works for me too.

OK Hokulele - a brief trip into the real world.

[large snip]


September 11, 2001 conspiracy theories are not relevant to the topic of this thread. If I have evidence or opinions on those issues, I will post on those threads.

[fuelair]

Bear in mind oh 'debunkers' that at the heart of "From Freedom to Fascism" is the issue of the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank and the fact that there seems to be no law in the US that demands you pay tax on wages. "Show me the law", is the demand that these people are making - and no law can be shown.

Now we all hate the taxman don't we?
Don't we?

Because I think people browsing this place might find it odd, a bunch of 'skeptics' eagerly attacking anyone who would want to remove such a tax.

So tone it down a bit, or you'll give the game away.

Not "eagerly attacking anyone who" - just pointing out that the people stupid enough to try any of these tricks/games with the laws seem to wind up in jail - through the only court system we have. Sort of, kind of moots the point - i.e. if the entire official system acts like it is law then it is for all practical purposes law. If you can be imprisoned, fined, etc. for it, you had best treat it as law. And, on the other side, as a non-lawyer, I am forced to be convinced by the people who are that their consistent explanations of why/how your little band is - through malice, ignorance, stupidity or whatever - simply wrong on your attempts at intepreting laws and court decisions to mean what you want them to, not what they actually, in law, mean. I would be perfectly happy to not have to pay taxes - income or other - but I have no intention of trying to play loser games to avoid them.

[chipmunk stew]

the time for debate is over. This reflects an emerging consensus in the 911 truth community which I agree with.
So you've ended the debate stage, confident that you've established that the official story is indefensible. Excellent--good for you! So...what's the next stage?

[scooby]

September 11, 2001 conspiracy theories are not relevant to the topic of this thread. If I have evidence or opinions on those issues, I will post on those threads.

Go ahead by all means, if thread discipline's your thing over and above serious real world issues.

[Hokulele]

Go ahead by all means. . .


Why thank you. Likewise.

[Horatius]

Please go ahead - if you have 15 points of contention with my post, by all means go ahead with your detailed analysis. Before you do though, I would repeat my initial assertion made early in my visit here - that the time for debate is over. This reflects an emerging consensus in the 911 truth community which I agree with.



You could, perhaps, have noted that the "15" comes from your own post. I was simply using your own hyperbole as a rhetorical point.

However, I really see no reason to waste time on your points right now, as you won't accept any of our arguments in any case. I'll simply point out the stupidity of being on a forum dedicated to debate if "the time for debate is over".

So if the time for debate is over, what the heck else are you going to do? Put up or shut up time. Let's see some concrete plans of action. How will you act to convince those who currently don't believe the 9/11 CTs of the Truth? Or will they simply be swept away by the New Order? Will it be a mass uprising, or a series of targeted assasinations? Will you be buying billboard space, or trying to hack the TV networks? Am I anywhere close?

Or are you just a pathetic troll wannabe, who can only sit on the sidelines and snark?

[Questioninggeller]

This lady at the local Green Party has been raving up and down about how I have to see this new documentary by some guy named Aaron Russo, From Freedom to Fascism. (http://www.freedomtofascism.com/) You can, of course, see it for free on Google Video. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198&q=freedom+to+fascism)


After reading a bunch of CT claims that used the movie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America:_From_Freedom_to_Fascism) as their source I started to watch it online. I turned it off after watching Russo interview a IRS ( if I remember correctly?) attorney.

That section was editted so poorly with Russo's spliced in commentary refusing to give the attorney a chance to explain himself I turned it off. The word strawman came to mind, as well as lies, concerning Russo's project.

I can't say I'm suprised the IRS won't do an interview with him over the legality of taxes. Who, but a raving tax protestor, would subject themself to being that movie?

Just more miseducation by the CTs. Personally, I'd like to see some type of sanction, such as the IRS did with Irwin Schiff. See: http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2004/August/04_tax_551.htm for details.

[scooby]

You could, perhaps, have noted that the "15" comes from your own post. I was simply using your own hyperbole as a rhetorical point.

However, I really see no reason to waste time on your points right now, as you won't accept any of our arguments in any case. I'll simply point out the stupidity of being on a forum dedicated to debate if "the time for debate is over".

So if the time for debate is over, what the heck else are you going to do? Put up or shut up time. Let's see some concrete plans of action. How will you act to convince those who currently don't believe the 9/11 CTs of the Truth? Or will they simply be swept away by the New Order? Will it be a mass uprising, or a series of targeted assasinations? Will you be buying billboard space, or trying to hack the TV networks? Am I anywhere close?

Or are you just a pathetic troll wannabe, who can only sit on the sidelines and snark?

I believe it is important that people are aware of these issues, the internet is an excellent medium for disseminating information. This place seemed like it needed a dose of common sense.

As for your implication that the 911 truth movement may have a propensity for violent acts, may I just point out that the team you support have killed upwards of half a million since 911 by some estimates, plus the 3000 on that day, and over 3000 US troops so far. Nice try.

[stateofgrace]

OK Hokulele - a brief trip into the real world.

A great number of people, including myself, know beyond all shadow of a doubt that what happened on 911 was organised and planned by elements of the US Govt in collaboration with other Western security services. The information supporting this conclusion is overwhelming. The whole thing reads like a book with a couple of pages missing. Much of the evidence is established fact, yet all of it will be challenged here by 'skeptics' who claim that everything in the official story is true, despite the proven falsehoods it contains.


YOU have concluded? YOU have evidence? YOU are going to bring the organisers of mass murder to justice?

Oh Scooby you are such a laugh. Where are the established facts? It is inside your paranoid mind Scooby.

What Western security services?

Come on Scooby name all your suspects.

Sorry no facts, no evidence just claims upon claim.

Tell you what Scooby lay it out. Let me read the book. Show how 911 panned out, right from the beginning right though to the day and beyond. Show me Scooby; show me how it all works.

Here you go, please include in your factual summary of the events of 911 the following.

WTC 1, WTC 2, WTC 7, Flight 77, Flight 93, Flight 11, Flight 175, NORAD, The Pentagon, Al Qaeda, Bin Laden and the Western Intelligence agencies.

Also include NIST, The CIA, The FBI and the 911 commission if you like.

[stateofgrace]

I believe it is important that people are aware of these issues, the internet is an excellent medium for disseminating information. This place seemed like it needed a dose of common sense.

As for your implication that the 911 truth movement may have a propensity for violent acts, may I just point out that the team you support have killed upwards of half a million since 911 by some estimates, plus the 3000 on that day, and over 3000 US troops so far. Nice try.

Yes Scooby we are all blood thirsty war mongering wanta be mass murderers for not supporting your paranoid fantasies.

Keep living the dream Scooby, still safe and secure inside your bedroom are you or are the nasty MIB poking around outside ?

[scooby]

YOU have concluded? YOU have evidence? YOU are going to bring the organisers of mass murder to justice?

Yup, me me me.

And 2 years before any physics professors or theology professors finally got the balls to say something about it. ahhh ... (cigar), don't you just love it when a plan comes together.

If it wasn't for us pesky kids, posting on the web - they would have gotten away with it. ;)

[scooby]

Well maybe not the third - thats something out of any single persons hands.
Up to the american people now.
I'm confident.
They have a history of not liking getting ***ed over.

[Dr. Lao]

Scoob, you got that video yet with the audio of the detonation charges?

You remember, the really loud ones?

The conspiracy you are hiding from?

Put up your proof, nutter.

[Redtail]

Yup, me me me.

And 2 years before physics any professors and theology professors finally got the balls to say something about it. ahhh ... (cigar), don't you just love it when a plan comes together.

If it wasn't for us pesky kids, posting on the web - they would have gotten away with it. ;)

When when when? If you have all of this evidence should you bring these murders to justice? Or are you just going to sit on it until all of those people you see as scared to speak up back you up? Wait... Are you scared to speakup about the subject? I mean aside from ranting on the computernot backing up said rants.

[stateofgrace]

Yup, me me me.

And 2 years before any physics professors or theology professors finally got the balls to say something about it. ahhh ... (cigar), don't you just love it when a plan comes together.

If it wasn't for us pesky kids, posting on the web - they would have gotten away with it. ;)
Scooby I see no factual based summary, where is it? Come on Scooby lay it all out. Show me the light.

What happened?

Ps please include the following.


WTC 1, WTC 2, WTC 7, Flight 77, Flight 93, Flight 11, Flight 175, NORAD, The Pentagon, Al Qaeda, Bin Laden and the Western Intelligence agencies.

Also include NIST, The CIA, The FBI and the 911 commission if you like.

[Horatius]

I believe it is important that people are aware of these issues, the internet is an excellent medium for disseminating information. This place seemed like it needed a dose of common sense.

As for your implication that the 911 truth movement may have a propensity for violent acts, may I just point out that the team you support have killed upwards of half a million since 911 by some estimates, plus the 3000 on that day, and over 3000 US troops so far. Nice try.


Actually, I was implying that the twoof movement has a propensity for sitting on its ass doing nothing about what it believes to be the muders of "upwards of half a million since 911 by some estimates, plus the 3000 on that day, and over 3000 US troops". You hang out here and try to score points against some nasty old skeptics, instead of taking the risks of actually trying to bring to justice anyone you believe to be guilty.

If I believed as you did, no force on Earth could withstand my righteous anger. But hey, there's no need for you to be a man of honour and integrity, just because I am.


ahhh ... (cigar), don't you just love it when a plan comes together.




I know Hannibal Smith, I respect Hannibal Smith. You, sir, are no Hannibal Smith. You're not even Faceman.

[scooby]

Scoob, you got that video yet with the audio of the detonation charges?

You remember, the really loud ones?

The conspiracy you are hiding from?

Put up your proof, nutter.

Have you seriously not seen any of the video's that record explosions?
Well ok, two come to mind.

I think I already posted this one somewhere - can you detect the audio anomaly? It starts around 6 seconds in and continues for about 3 seconds ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcRs1fv8i3I

Go on, 'debunk' away.

Car backfiring?

[GwionX]

Transformer exploding

Scooby, have you ever heard a Transformer explode before?

[Dr. Lao]

Have you seriously not seen any of the video's that record explosions?
Well ok, two come to mind.

I think I already posted this one somewhere - can you detect the audio anomaly? It starts around 6 seconds in and continues for about 3 seconds ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcRs1fv8i3I

Go on, 'debunk' away.

Car backfiring?


That was certainly a bang. Not a detonation, if it were a detonation, there would be several at once, and the buildings would fall instantly, and they didn't did they?

And, why no video of the detonation and the falling? Because...there were no detonations.

Most likely, a transformer popping, they did that on 9/11.

Come on Scooby, you say it was a controlled demolition, I want to see and hear the charges going off and the building fall, just like in every single controlled demoliton out there.

You are amusing in your ignorance.

[scooby]

But my all time personal favourite, one that really captures the "Shock and Awe" of the event, is this one filmed during the south tower collapse...

http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/9/11/214131/southtower.trinity.avi

Did you know that by the way, that "Shock and Awe" wasn't what they did to Baghdad?

The real "Shock and Awe" was 911, and we were the targets.

It was a Psy-Op, a very good one too, but not good enough - bit too bold really. If only the buildings had collapsed straight away as the planes hit - who would have questioned it eh? And if only WTC7 had come down when it was supposed to instead of 5 hours after the dust cleared and 20 minutes late for its own funeral on the BBC.

[scooby]

Transformer exploding

Scooby, have you ever heard a Transformer explode before?

Make, model, location and references please.

[scooby]

That was certainly a bang. Not a detonation, if it were a detonation, there would be several at once, and the buildings would fall instantly, and they didn't did they?

No, if it were several detonations, there would be several at once.
Nice try Dr Lao, but nobody's listening to this **** anymore.

[Gravy]

But my all time personal favourite, one that really captures the "Shock and Awe" of the event, is this one filmed during the south tower collapse...

http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/9/11/214131/southtower.trinity.avi

Did you know that by the way, that "Shock and Awe" wasn't what they did to Baghdad?

The real "Shock and Awe" was 911, and we were the targets.

It was a Psy-Op, a very good one too, but not good enough - bit too bold really. If only the buildings had collapsed straight away as the planes hit - who would have questioned it eh? And if only WTC7 had come down when it was supposed to instead of 5 hours after the dust cleared and 20 minutes late for its own funeral on the BBC.Yep, scooby done let the Coco-Puffs spill out the bowl.

Fetch the Stundie, scooby d'oh!

[Dr. Lao]

You said you have proof of the buildings collapsing after a controlled detonation.

All you showed was a bang.

And you asking for the make and model of transformer?

Lame

Give me the make and model of the detonation devices, who planted them, when they were planted, and how they got planted without anyone noticing.

Keep up the kookfest, its funny!

[scooby]

You said you have proof of the buildings collapsing after a controlled detonation.

All you showed was a bang.

And you asking for the make and model of transformer?

Lame

Give me the make and model of the detonation devices, who planted them, when they were planted, and how they got planted without anyone noticing.

Keep up the kookfest, its funny!

No, I've never stated that.
Either find those words and post them here, or scamper off spanking your own ass cheeks you fork tongued little 'skeptic' you.

As for the transformer - we'll let Mr Certainty answer for himself on that one shall we?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Transformer exploding

Scooby, have you ever heard a Transformer explode before?
From the "Freefall?" thread...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2674646408572574875

This is a video of an electrical transformer on fire, which explodes. From the video's description: "The mineral oil inside started to boil from the heat, gushing from the sides and causing the explosion."

[Redtail]

But my all time personal favourite, one that really captures the "Shock and Awe" of the event, is this one filmed during the south tower collapse...

http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/9/11/214131/southtower.trinity.avi

Did you know that by the way, that "Shock and Awe" wasn't what they did to Baghdad?

The real "Shock and Awe" was 911, and we were the targets.

It was a Psy-Op, a very good one too, but not good enough - bit too bold really. If only the buildings had collapsed straight away as the planes hit - who would have questioned it eh? And if only WTC7 had come down when it was supposed to instead of 5 hours after the dust cleared and 20 minutes late for its own funeral on the BBC.
:jaw-dropp You know all of this and yet you wont take this info, this proof to authorities who could punish thoes who did it? Wow.

[scooby]

From the "Freefall?" thread...

Oh I'm familiar with transformer explosions, we had one go up outside work a few years ago, splashed hot oil all over several cars. Ruined the paint.

You'll notice the sound is very different from the explosion you hear in the video from the WTC, one of several.

I look forward to the day we get hold of all the suppressed video's that the US govt is witholding, something like 8000 of them. When you consider what's been found in the 50 or so clips that float around the internet - well, imagine whats lurking in that collection eh?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Yep, scooby done let the Coco-Puffs spill out the bowl.

Fetch the Stundie, scooby d'oh!
Should we tell him the explosions in that video are fake?

[stateofgrace]

Have you seriously not seen any of the video's that record explosions?
Well ok, two come to mind.

I think I already posted this one somewhere - can you detect the audio anomaly? It starts around 6 seconds in and continues for about 3 seconds ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcRs1fv8i3I

Go on, 'debunk' away.

Car backfiring?

Scooby,

Any idea when these explosions were recorded?

You know the exact time? As WTC 2 collapsed? As WTC 1 collapsed? Or as WTC 7 collapsed?

Any idea why the firemen involved have not spoken publicly since?

[Dr. Lao]

No, I've never stated that.
Either find those words and post them here, or scamper off spanking your own ass cheeks you fork tongued little 'skeptic' you.

As for the transformer - we'll let Mr Certainty answer for himself on that one shall we?

You have posted nothing to substatiate your claim that it was a controlled detonation. No video of the building being imploded while you can hear the charges go off.

The amount of time you CT's spend trying to follow every kooky thought is scary, you could have a life.

Go ahead and spin away, getting a hard piece of proof from a CT is impossible.

Who the hell cares about the make and model of a transformer? I had one blow near me last summer, loud as hell!

[scooby]

:jaw-dropp You know all of this and yet you wont take this info, this proof to authorities who could punish thoes who did it? Wow.

LOL - but the 'authorities' did it you tool.

They're hardly going to march themselves off to the electric chair are they?
Talk about winning the Darwin awards.
As a rule of thumb - the guilty, don't like being punished.
Didn't you know that?

Anyway you know now, so off you go, lead by example then.
It's your plan.

[GwionX]

You have posted nothing to substatiate your claim that it was a controlled detonation. No video of the building being imploded while you can hear the charges go off.

The amount of time you CT's spend trying to follow every kooky thought is scary, you could have a life.

Go ahead and spin away, getting a hard piece of proof from a CT is impossible.

Who the hell cares about the make and model of a transformer? I had one blow near me last summer, loud as hell!

I too had a transformer blow at my place of business last year. About 200 yards away.

It sounded like a "Boom" like someone just fired a 44 mag in the stall next to you at the shooting range.

The "Substation Fire" and subsequent explosion didn't sound like what we all heard at my office last year.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

LOL - but the 'authorities' did it you tool.
What; all of them?

[GwionX]

From the "Freefall?" thread...


Your point is taken.

[scooby]

I too had a transformer blow at my place of business last year. About 200 yards away.

It sounded like a "Boom" like someone just fired a 44 mag in the stall next to you at the shooting range.

The "Substation Fire" and subsequent explosion didn't sound like what we all heard at my office last year.

I don't believe this substantiates your claim with certainty that it was a transformer exploding in the first clip?

How do you know this Gwion?
Which transformer was it?
Where was it?

Was it in the basement of the WTC - I thought you'd already used that one up to explain William Rodriguez?

Don't tell me - it was the backup generator, the one that explodes when you run out of other excuses?

[Redtail]

LOL - but the 'authorities' did it you tool.

They're hardly going to march themselves off to the electric chair are they?
Talk about winning the Darwin awards.
As a rule of thumb - the guilty, don't like being punished.
Didn't you know that?

Anyway you know now, so off you go, lead by example then.
It's your plan.

GOOD LORD!!! You mean that you've also discovered that the members of the American government are also the only authorities on the planet!?!??!?!?!

YOur research skills are truly second to none!!!

(Granted that's because others realize that "the Matrix" was just a movie but there you go.)
:dl:

[GwionX]

I don't believe this substantiates your claim with certainty that it was a transformer exploding in the first clip?

How do you know this Gwion?
Which transformer was it?
Where was it?

Was it in the basement of the WTC - I thought you'd already used that one up to explain William Rodriguez?

Don't tell me - it was the backup generator, the one that explodes when you run out of other excuses?

Ya know Scooby, I can only wonder why you don't put this kind of effort and scrutiny in your own claims.

I am open to it being another source. In my life experience that single isolated "bang" captured, in that YouTube video you posted, immediately reminded me of the sound I heard when a transformer exploded at my work last year.

BTW; I couldn't get that second vid of yours to load. I suspect it is footage of the South Tower collapse. If so, when you compare that footage with any other controlled demolition with audio, you will find the sharp explosions happen BEFORE the collapse in all of the controlled demo's. In the South tower footage you are hearing the pancake collapse and the sounds of that DURING , not BEFORE the building fails. That is a BIG difference.

[stateofgrace]

I don't believe this substantiates your claim with certainty that it was a transformer exploding in the first clip?

How do you know this Gwion?
Which transformer was it?
Where was it?

Was it in the basement of the WTC - I thought you'd already used that one up to explain William Rodriguez?

Don't tell me - it was the backup generator, the one that explodes when you run out of other excuses?

Scooby,factual summary, any chance?

[scooby]

Ya know Scooby, I can only wonder why you don't put this kind of effort and scrutiny in your own claims.

I am open to it being another source. In my life experience that single isolated "bang" captured, in that YouTube video you posted, immediately reminded me of the sound I heard when a transformer exploded at my work last year.

Well, you didn't say that did you?
And now you've said this it only gets worse, as any normal persons reaction, when they hear a huge explosion, is to think ... 'bomb'.

Only afterwards, do alternative explanations overcome that inherent knee-jerk understanding we all carry.

But there have been none.

Unless you want to correct me - is there an official explanation for that explosion? Does this explanation give details about what transformer it was that exploded midway through the events of that day? Where was this transformer? Why did it explode? Where is this explanation?

[Redtail]

Well, you didn't say that did you?
And now you've said this it only gets worse, as any normal persons reaction, when they hear a huge explosion, is to think ... 'bomb'.

Only afterwards, do alternative explanations overcome that inherent knee-jerk understanding we all carry.

But there have been none.

Unless you want to correct me - is there an official explanation for that explosion? Does this explanation give details about what transformer it was that exploded midway through the events of that day? Where was this transformer? Why did it explode? Where is this explanation?

Is there a truther explanation that explains how this single explosion brought down the tower?

[scooby]

What; all of them?

No, just some of them, the ones at the top, the ones that matter.
The ones who are in essence 'the authorities'.
This is rather obvious, and if you had any real confidence in your claims you would not need to obfusticate the issue in this manner.

But again - who cares.

I was just reading this about DRG's new book ...

"By virtue of his previous four books on the subject, David Ray Griffin is widely recognized as one of the leading spokespersons of the 9/11 truth movement, which rejects the official conspiracy theory about 9/11. Although this movement was long ignored by the US government and the mainstream media, recent polls have shown that (as Time magazine has acknowledged) the rejection of the official theory has become "a mainstream political phenomenon." It is not surprising, therefore, that the government and the corporately controlled media have shifted tactics. No longer ignoring the 9/11 truth movement, they have released a flurry of stories and reports aimed at debunking it.

In the present book, David Ray Griffin shows that these attempts can themselves be easily debunked. Besides demonstrating the pitiful failure of Debunking 9/11 Myths (published by Popular Mechanics and endorsed by Senator John McCain), Griffin riddles recent reports and stories put out by the US Department of State, the National Institute of Standards and Technology, the New York Times, Vanity Fair, and Time magazine. He also responds to criticisms of these efforts by left-leaning and Christian publications--which one might have expected to be supportive.
Throughout these critiques, Griffin shows that the charge that is regularly leveled against critics of the official theory--that they employ irrational and unscientific methods to defend conclusions based on faith--actually applies more fully to those who defend the official theory.

This book, by debunking the most prevalent attempts to refute the evidence cited by the 9/11 truth movement, shows that this movement's central claim--that 9/11 was an inside job--remains the only explanation that fits the facts."

http://markcrispinmiller.blogspot.com/2007/03/debunkers-debunked.html

Even Time magazine can read the writing on the wall.

[Axiom_Blade]

Wow.
So, why does every thread have to be a 9-11 denial thread?

[scooby]

Is there a truther explanation that explains how this single explosion brought down the tower?

As weak as my erection after a month in Amsterdam.
Not even worth it.
Amsterdam was. ;)

[Horatius]

Anyway you know now, so off you go, lead by example then.
It's your plan.



More of a plan than any of you lot have.

[stateofgrace]

Well, you didn't say that did you?
And now you've said this it only gets worse, as any normal persons reaction, when they hear a huge explosion, is to think ... 'bomb'.

Only afterwards, do alternative explanations overcome that inherent knee-jerk understanding we all carry.

But there have been none.

Unless you want to correct me - is there an official explanation for that explosion? Does this explanation give details about what transformer it was that exploded midway through the events of that day? Where was this transformer? Why did it explode? Where is this explanation?

Indeed.


what sounded like an explosion,


like an explosion


it must of been an explosion


I first heard this loud-loud booming sound


thought something might have exploded


Heard loud explosion/thunder


we thought that something had exploded


I thought maybe a tanker had exploded or a plane had crashed


We heard a loud boom


It sounded and felt like to me a large object had just exploded in the pasture.


http://www.okgeosurvey1.gov/atoka.html

PS they are describing an earthquake.

Conclusion .......what sounds like an explosion is not always caused by explosives.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

As weak as my erection after a month in Amsterdam.
Not even worth it.
Amsterdam was. ;)
"I don't have to address that. I'm a 'real man', because I went to Amsterdam and had sexual relations with many prostitutes."

Please don't try to be "macho". It's disturbing to watch.

[GwionX]

Well, you didn't say that did you?
And now you've said this it only gets worse, as any normal persons reaction, when they hear a huge explosion, is to think ... 'bomb'.

Look, you were asking what it could be, your tounge in cheek suggestion was a "car backfiring." I said "transformer exploding." I didn't see the police and Firemen in that video exactly running for their lives when they heard the sound. I didn't hear them screaming "Bomb." I saw them discuss the instability of the area, and finish their phone calls.

Only afterwards, do alternative explanations overcome that inherent knee-jerk understanding we all carry.

"Knee-jerk understanding"-- that pretty much sums up your position.

[Dr. Lao]

As weak as my erection after a month in Amsterdam.
Not even worth it.
Amsterdam was. ;)

More spin, more trying to change the subject.

Its easy to be a Conspiracy Theorist, you never have to tell the truth, never have to prove anything, and when you get beaten in an argument, you just throw out more conspiracies, or accuse the other person of being part of the conspiracy.

[Redtail]

As weak as my erection after a month in Amsterdam.
Not even worth it.
Amsterdam was. ;)

So you can't answer the question. That's ok, haven't seen a truther answer it yet. (BTW if you have a problem with that, you might want to contact Pdoh. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=77043)

[beachnut]

No, just some of them, the ones at the top, the ones that matter.
The ones who are in essence 'the authorities'.
This is rather obvious, and if you had any real confidence in your claims you would not need to obfusticate the issue in this manner.

But again - who cares.

I was just reading this about DRG's new book ...

"By virtue of his previous four books on the subject, David Ray Griffin is widely recognized as one of the leading spokespersons of the 9/11 truth movement, which rejects the official conspiracy theory about 9/11. Although this movement was long ignored by the US government and the mainstream media, recent polls have shown that (as Time magazine has acknowledged) the rejection of the official theory has become "a mainstream political phenomenon." It is not surprising, therefore, that the government and the corporately controlled media have shifted tactics. No longer ignoring the 9/11 truth movement, they have released a flurry of stories and reports aimed at debunking it.

In the present book, David Ray Griffin shows that these attempts can themselves be easily debunked. Besides demonstrating the pitiful failure of Debunking 9/11 Myths (published by Popular Mechanics and endorsed by Senator John McCain), Griffin riddles recent reports and stories put out by the US Department of State, the National Institute of Standards and Technology, the New York Times, Vanity Fair, and Time magazine. He also responds to criticisms of these efforts by left-leaning and Christian publications--which one might have expected to be supportive.
Throughout these critiques, Griffin shows that the charge that is regularly leveled against critics of the official theory--that they employ irrational and unscientific methods to defend conclusions based on faith--actually applies more fully to those who defend the official theory.

This book, by debunking the most prevalent attempts to refute the evidence cited by the 9/11 truth movement, shows that this movement's central claim--that 9/11 was an inside job--remains the only explanation that fits the facts."

http://markcrispinmiller.blogspot.com/2007/03/debunkers-debunked.html

Even Time magazine can read the writing on the wall.
All anyone has to do is listen to David Ray Griffin and you see he has no facts. He can never, and will never tell you what happened on 9/11. Griffin is clueless, fact-less, and just talks and rants about everything but what happen on 9/11. He is an expert in nothing and after listening to him for hours he proves only that he can talk well about BS, and more BS.

He is pompous brainless twit, who will never be able to tell you what happen on 9/11 because he does not know. Funny he even tells you this, he is just stupid but still making money talking about lies and selling books based on lies.

I challenge you to find one fact Griffin has to support his worthless ideas on 9/11.

I can not believe I listened to his 9 myths on 9/11!!! WOW, what a dopey smooth talking liar.

He sells books on 9/11 to idiots who believe 9/11 was an inside job and everyone is covering up something. What he does not know, how he does not know, but he has tons of WHY. But I can not remember any of his why, it was so obtuse it was forgettable.

So what poor people have bought his book only to realize he was telling lies?

One of his favorite myth is that the terrorist on flight 77 could not have flown 77 into the Pentagon. He should of asked an expert, like a pilot. I am a pilot and with over 33 years of flying experience. I have flown supersonic jets, and heavy jets, 300,000 pound jets. I have talked to many flight instructors and 767/757 pilots. We all agree anyone could have flown the jet as done on 9/11. Anyone, as in a kid off the street with no flying experience. Why did Griffin fail to find the truth?

Griffin does not mention the terrorist all had FAA licenses and had studied the 767/757 aircraft! Griffin does not tell you the terrorist turned down to rent a Cessna by an instructor the same instructor said the terrorist would have been able to fly 77 into the Pentagon. Why does Griffin tell lies?

Scooby if you do not understand what I am saying I can help explain if you have questions about flying. Every single pilot and expert in the 9/11 truth movement is telling lies about the flying portion of 9/11. They are liars. Bring up one fact about flying on 9/11 that the truth movement has! They have none. Zip, Zero!

It boils done to this; David Ray Griffin is a liar because he leaves out the complete story. He does not understand NORAD, or even basic flying. The only fact I can think Griffin has is he sells books based on lies about 9/11.

You copied this junk from a dumb advertisement for Griffin's book of lies! What a goofball! No new stuff here, just the liar Griffin selling books and tell more lies for you not so intellectually sound truthers.

[Redtail]

"I don't have to address that. I'm a 'real man', because I went to Amsterdam and had sexual relations with many prostitutes."

Please don't try to be "macho". It's disturbing to watch.

I never understood why the prostitutes counted as "macho". If one is paying them it's a good indicator that one isn't "macho" but has disposeable cash.

[gumboot]

Why do Conspiracy Theorists keep posting obviously fake vidoes and expect people to accept them? Are they stupid?

-Gumboot

[scooby]

Wow.
So, why does every thread have to be a 9-11 denial thread?

Ahh the old '911 Denial' meme.
Trying to portray us as akin to 'Holocaust Deniers'.

Yes you're going to need to criminalise it to stop it, but if you do that - you lose.

[T.A.M.]

I can not believe I listened to his 9 myths on 9/11!!! WOW, what a dopey smooth talking liar.

You think that was bad, well this, while not audio, is worse...

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/571-page-lie.htm

TAM:)

[scooby]

Conclusion .......what sounds like an explosion is not always caused by explosives.

Conclusion?

I pretty much said that myself in the post you responded to.
You're a dumb bunch aren't you, it must be a thankless task flogging the dead horse of the official story, trying to get one more lap out of it, one more war.

Explosives, when they explode, always sound like an explosion.
That is why the sound of an explosion is a useful indicator of explosives.

Absent any other explanation, this is usually the logical first assumption to make - which is where we still are, 6 years after the fact.

Unless of course you've found that explanation of this explosion that you all seem so certain was a transformer?

Any luck yet?

I tell you what, go on, make one up, I won't even check.
I'll give you a freebie on this one, paint with as broad a brush as you like, go for it.

[scooby]

"I don't have to address that. I'm a 'real man', because I went to Amsterdam and had sexual relations with many prostitutes."

Please don't try to be "macho". It's disturbing to watch.

No not at all - I used to work there. ;)

[scooby]

Look, you were asking what it could be, your tounge in cheek suggestion was a "car backfiring." I said "transformer exploding." I didn't see the police and Firemen in that video exactly running for their lives when they heard the sound. I didn't hear them screaming "Bomb." I saw them discuss the instability of the area, and finish their phone calls.

"Knee-jerk understanding"-- that pretty much sums up your position.

Ho ho, "discuss the instability of the area".

You saw one cower in fear and another tell them to get the hell out of there because "the city's exploding".

If you think it might be a transformer exploding, then include the phrase "might be", else people may get the wrong idea and think you know what you are talking about.

But thank you for conceding that you don't.

So we're left with - an unexplained explosion, one of many.

[scooby]

More spin, more trying to change the subject.

Its easy to be a Conspiracy Theorist, you never have to tell the truth, never have to prove anything, and when you get beaten in an argument, you just throw out more conspiracies, or accuse the other person of being part of the conspiracy.

But the official story is a 'conspiracy theory', a theory, that Osama Bin Laden, and 19 men in sandals, conspired to defeat the entire US air defences and owned US air space for an hour and a half, bringing down three buildings, with two planes.

It is the biggest crock of **** the world has ever heard.

[T.A.M.]

Conclusion?

I pretty much said that myself in the post you responded to.
You're a dumb bunch aren't you, it must be a thankless task flogging the dead horse of the official story, trying to get one more lap out of it, one more war.

Explosives, when they explode, always sound like an explosion.
That is why the sound of an explosion is a useful indicator of explosives.

Absent any other explanation, this is usually the logical first assumption to make - which is where we still are, 6 years after the fact.

Unless of course you've found that explanation of this explosion that you all seem so certain was a transformer?

Any luck yet?

I tell you what, go on, make one up, I won't even check.
I'll give you a freebie on this one, paint with as broad a brush as you like, go for it.


Scoobs;

An explosion is a quick, forceful release of energy. It can come from any number of sources, including explosives, but also including any pressurized container that is punctured or ruptured. It can also come from the destruction of electrical transformers. Those are facts, not up for debate.

Now that is the strict use of the word. You and I both know, most people in the world, when they hear a loud violent noise might be inclined to call it a "boom" or a "bang" or an...wait for it...an "explosion".

If I heard an explosion on my street, would my "first assumption" be explosives...not likely. I would think a gas tank in a car, or someones furnace, or the gas from someones stove "Exploded" or "combusted".

If I was in a skyscraper, that had just been hit by a jet airliner, and was now ON FIRE on multiple floors, I think I would be inclined not to think Explosives, when I hear loud noises, bangs, booms, or explosions, but rather, I would think something the building "broke" or "fell" or "exploded", but not neccesarily a bomb.

But thats little old, non-paranoid me.

TAM:)

[beachnut]

Ho ho, "discuss the instability of the area".

You saw one cower in fear and another tell them to get the hell out of there because "the city's exploding".

If you think it might be a transformer exploding, then include the phrase "might be", else people may get the wrong idea and think you know what you are talking about.

But thank you for conceding that you don't.

So we're left with - an unexplained explosion, one of many.

They want your caliber of expert talker over at LCF, you must join up. They need some stuff like yours over there too.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/

And they would need some more people to help the expert pilots at PFTF. Join soon. We need you over there too.

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_For_Truth/

[Oliver]

But the official story is a 'conspiracy theory', a theory, that Osama Bin Laden, and 19 men in sandals, conspired to defeat the entire US air defences and owned US air space for an hour and a half.

It is the biggest crock of **** the world has ever heard.


Do you know the definition of "Conspiracy Theorists"? It's pretty
interesting and also describes the psychological reasons to believe
in conspiracy theories:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theorist

[scooby]

All anyone has to do is listen to David Ray Griffin and you see he has no facts. He can never, and will never tell you what happened on 9/11. Griffin is clueless, fact-less, and just talks and rants about everything but what happen on 9/11. He is an expert in nothing and after listening to him for hours he proves only that he can talk well about BS, and more BS.

He is pompous brainless twit, who will never be able to tell you what happen on 9/11 because he does not know. Funny he even tells you this, he is just stupid but still making money talking about lies and selling books based on lies.

I challenge you to find one fact Griffin has to support his worthless ideas on 9/11.

I can not believe I listened to his 9 myths on 9/11!!! WOW, what a dopey smooth talking liar.

He sells books on 9/11 to idiots who believe 9/11 was an inside job and everyone is covering up something. What he does not know, how he does not know, but he has tons of WHY. But I can not remember any of his why, it was so obtuse it was forgettable.

So what poor people have bought his book only to realize he was telling lies?

One of his favorite myth is that the terrorist on flight 77 could not have flown 77 into the Pentagon. He should of asked an expert, like a pilot. I am a pilot and with over 33 years of flying experience. I have flown supersonic jets, and heavy jets, 300,000 pound jets. I have talked to many flight instructors and 767/757 pilots. We all agree anyone could have flown the jet as done on 9/11. Anyone, as in a kid off the street with no flying experience. Why did Griffin fail to find the truth?

Griffin does not mention the terrorist all had FAA licenses and had studied the 767/757 aircraft! Griffin does not tell you the terrorist turned down to rent a Cessna by an instructor the same instructor said the terrorist would have been able to fly 77 into the Pentagon. Why does Griffin tell lies?

Scooby if you do not understand what I am saying I can help explain if you have questions about flying. Every single pilot and expert in the 9/11 truth movement is telling lies about the flying portion of 9/11. They are liars. Bring up one fact about flying on 9/11 that the truth movement has! They have none. Zip, Zero!

It boils done to this; David Ray Griffin is a liar because he leaves out the complete story. He does not understand NORAD, or even basic flying. The only fact I can think Griffin has is he sells books based on lies about 9/11.

You copied this junk from a dumb advertisement for Griffin's book of lies! What a goofball! No new stuff here, just the liar Griffin selling books and tell more lies for you not so intellectually sound truthers.

LOL, you're babbling.

What's the matter, not used to someone who knows the subject and isn't afraid of your 'twoofer' jibes?

And DRG is a liar now is he?
Hmmm.

[T.A.M.]

LOL, you're babbling.

What's the matter, not used to someone who knows the subject and isn't afraid of your 'twoofer' jibes?

And DRG is a liar now is he?
Hmmm.

No, that is the type of person we like to see more of around here, why, have you seen such a person posting here lately?

TAM:D

[beachnut]

But the official story is a 'conspiracy theory', a theory, that Osama Bin Laden, and 19 men in sandals, conspired to defeat the entire US air defences and owned US air space for an hour and a half, bringing down three buildings, with two planes.

It is the biggest crock of **** the world has ever heard.
You head is full of the biggest lies ever from the truth movement.

No you are not even capable of understanding definitions. The 9/11 terrorist attack was a conspiracy by 19 terrorist.

A conspiracy theory is what the 9/11 truth movement is unble to find facts or evidence to support anything. What you have is what you said, your movement is a crock and you can not even post the simplest fact or piece of evidence to suport your junk ideas, or present the same to refute the 19 terrorist and what we all saw on 9/11.

Some people are not challenged like you and your truth movement and we can acutally use what you have wasted, your mind! Good luck finding a fact.

Just a simple list of facts. just one, you failed for 5 years to find a fact? What is wrong with your mind?

Since you have no facts it is easy to debunk you. Facts?

[Dr. Lao]

Scooby, its been 6 years, time to put up or shut up.

Show me the proof about 9/11.

No hemming, no hawing, actual, unbiased truth.

No suppositions, no wild theories, no spin.

Show me what you have, honestly.

You don't have squat, just paranoic retellings of paranoic myths and half truths, extrapolated to a sensationalistic frenzy, and eaten up by maladjusted folk who desperately need to have a conspiracy and a fantasy, rather than accept any notion reality.

[fuelair]

But my all time personal favourite, one that really captures the "Shock and Awe" of the event, is this one filmed during the south tower collapse...

http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/9/11/214131/southtower.trinity.avi

Did you know that by the way, that "Shock and Awe" wasn't what they did to Baghdad?

The real "Shock and Awe" was 911, and we were the targets.

It was a Psy-Op, a very good one too, but not good enough - bit too bold really. If only the buildings had collapsed straight away as the planes hit - who would have questioned it eh? And if only WTC7 had come down when it was supposed to instead of 5 hours after the dust cleared and 20 minutes late for its own funeral on the BBC.


If you actually believe this twaddle, I suggest you make several months worth of appointments with a good psychiatrist.

[fuelair]

Make, model, location and references please.

Large robot that can turn itself into other things. Speaks Japanese, I don't.

Really, seek help - you will feel a lot better. Honest.

[beachnut]

LOL, you're babbling.

What's the matter, not used to someone who knows the subject and isn't afraid of your 'twoofer' jibes?

And DRG is a liar now is he?
Hmmm.
The proof you and Griffin are liars is due to the simple reason you have no facts! Zip. You have failed to present a fact during mindless rant of woo.

Griffin thinks the Pentagon shoots down airplanes who fly over the Pentagon. How dumb are is this Griffin man of nutty ideas. There is an airport 1 mile from the Pentagon. A planes takes over 2 miles just to turn around. Think some dumb pilot could miss and fly over the Pentagon, how would you like to be destroyed cause your pilot is dumb? No the Pentagon does not shoot down airliners. Dumb Griffin, are his believers as dumb as him.

Bring on some facts; are you too challenged to find a fact? You seem quite challenged to even answer one question, why? .

Bring on some facts; are you too challenged to find a fact?

[scooby]

Do you know the definition of "Conspiracy Theorists"? It's pretty
interesting and also describes the psychological reasons to believe
in conspiracy theories:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theorist

Does it also point out that the subject is common practice and at the heart of all detective work where a crime involves more than one person?

371. Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States

If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
If, however, the offense, the commission of which is the object of the conspiracy, is a misdemeanor only, the punishment for such conspiracy shall not exceed the maximum punishment provided for such misdemeanor."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000371----000-.html

[Oliver]

Does it also point out that the subject is common practice and at the heart of all detective work where a crime involves more than one person?

371. Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States

If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
If, however, the offense, the commission of which is the object of the conspiracy, is a misdemeanor only, the punishment for such conspiracy shall not exceed the maximum punishment provided for such misdemeanor."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000371----000-.html


Yes, it explains all your questions as long you understand
the scientific explanations of this article. :)

[Mince]

Bear in mind oh 'debunkers' that at the heart of "From Freedom to Fascism" is the issue of the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank and the fact that there seems to be no law in the US that demands you pay tax on wages. "Show me the law", is the demand that these people are making - and no law can be shown.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sup_01_26.html


It is not law merely because you, or others, choose not to recognize it as such. Wages are income, both logically and by legal definition.


Now we all hate the taxman don't we?
Don't we?

Because I think people browsing this place might find it odd, a bunch of 'skeptics' eagerly attacking anyone who would want to remove such a tax.

So tone it down a bit, or you'll give the game away.


I do not hate paying taxes. It is because I enjoy driving on road and highways. I also enjoy the protection law enforcement and the military provide, for example.

[fuelair]

Yes, it explains all your questions as long you understand
the scientific explanations of this article. :)

And that will not happen in the lifetime of any person I know.

[Dr. Lao]

But the official story is a 'conspiracy theory', a theory, that Osama Bin Laden, and 19 men in sandals, conspired to defeat the entire US air defences and owned US air space for an hour and a half, bringing down three buildings, with two planes.

It is the biggest crock of **** the world has ever heard.


Great, show me your proof.

Your proof, don't ask me to disprove you, you have made the outrageous claim, back it up.

You won't, you can't, you can only point me to tons of silly and stupid CT crap, that is poorly sourced, poorly explained and full of crap.

You have proof? Prove it to me, then it must be so perfect that the media will take it. Oh, I know, the media is in on it too, that is why they laugh at CT's.

Never mind that CT's are pathetic losers that have no hard data, no real proof, no skills, just the same old wanking BS.

[gumboot]

But the official story is a 'conspiracy theory', a theory, that Osama Bin Laden, and 19 men in sandals, conspired to defeat the entire US air defences and owned US air space for an hour and a half, bringing down three buildings, with two planes.

It is the biggest crock of **** the world has ever heard.



I love it when CTers get put under stress and let their facade slip, revealing them for the bigots and racists they really are. These "men in sandals" defeated the Red Army and drove the United Nations out of Somalia. What makes you think they're incapable of snatching a couple of civil airliners filled with docile American civilians and exploiting a weakness in the dinosaur that was the US's strategic defense network?

By the way, Scooby, are you aware that the audio in the video you posted is fake?

-Gumboot

[Axiom_Blade]

Ahh the old '911 Denial' meme.
Trying to portray us as akin to 'Holocaust Deniers'.


You ARE kin. Conspiracy theories are all based on similar thought processes. It's just a different type of denial.


Yes you're going to need to criminalise it to stop it, but if you do that - you lose.

"Stupidity criminalized!"
There's a headline I'd love to see. I don't think you could stop people from being stupid, even if it were illegal.

[stateofgrace]

Conclusion?

I pretty much said that myself in the post you responded to.
You're a dumb bunch aren't you, it must be a thankless task flogging the dead horse of the official story, trying to get one more lap out of it, one more war.

Excuse me, who do you think you are?

Your nauseating summary of my beliefs is completely wrong. I do not support war, in fact if you really wish to know I actually have been on a few anti war demonstrations.

I am flogging nothing, I have highlighted the fact that just because people describe something as sounding like an explosion it does not mean it was caused by explosives. Of course you dismiss this because you have already determined that everything that sounded like an explosion was in fact caused by explosives. In you paranoid childish mind you have determined that nothing inside a burning building could possibly explode, you have determined that when somebody heard what sounded like an explosion it was in fact an explosion caused by explosives.
No other explanation for you, nothing else allowed. The most laughable part of it all is that you truly believe that lots and lots of explosives where pre planted inside the towers and those who did so were so stupid that they set them off hoping nobody would notice.

Your shallow excuse for your beliefs is laughable. It is little wonder you are not taken seriously. Your tactics are transparent. Simply dismiss and then demonise anybody that opposes you and imply they all support war. Why do you not to take it to your predetermined conclusion, that being that your opposition is actually blood thirty war mongers all hell bend on bringing death and destruction to the entire planet. That being that every single person who disagrees with your paranoid fantasies is in fact the real enemy and not the people who really did attack the US on 911. Hey while you are at it maybe you should also embrace Al Qaeda and tell everybody how they are really the good guys, just like yourself.

You are truly deluded.

[scooby]

Scooby, its been 6 years, time to put up or shut up.

Show me the proof about 9/11.

No hemming, no hawing, actual, unbiased truth.

No suppositions, no wild theories, no spin.

Show me what you have, honestly.

You don't have squat, just paranoic retellings of paranoic myths and half truths, extrapolated to a sensationalistic frenzy, and eaten up by maladjusted folk who desperately need to have a conspiracy and a fantasy, rather than accept any notion reality.

I-smell-fear.

Hypothetical scenario - suppose the US was really attacked on 911 by rogue elements of an illegitimate government which seized power in a non-violent coup 6 years ago, and not by muslim terrorists at all.

Suppose the american people wake up and realise this.

Suppose the tables are turned and the real perp's are brought to justice.

Suppose it transpires, that an integral part of this crime against humanity was an army of shills hired by PR companies working for the perps, who's job it was to silence all dissent and disrupt any rational discussion of the event in an effort to assist the perpetrators escape from justice in return for $$$$$.

How much effort would be made to identify and apprehend all these accessories to the horrific crime that occurred on that day, and those committed since?

I mean, can this be expressed mathematically?

Wouldn't it be some sort of function of 'pissed off' multiplied by 'all the time in the world'?

What should we call it boffins?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

But the official story is a 'conspiracy theory'. . .
The "Conspiracy of 19 Hijackers" ended on 9/11. Your "Conspiracy of U.S. Involvement" essentially began on 9/11 and has to be maintained indefinitely.

This, at the very least, is logistically impossible.

[Dr. Lao]

Not fear, just sadness that pretend investigators like you exist, spouting paranoia and half truths and fallacies.

Thankfully, you all become more marginalized every day as kooks.

[gumboot]

Suppose it transpires, that an integral part of this crime against humanity was an army of shills hired by PR companies working for the perps, who's job it was to silence all dissent and disrupt any rational discussion of the event in an effort to assist the perpetrators escape from justice in return for $$$$$.



If I were you I would back away from this train of thought. You are coming very close to accusing many people here of being accessories to murder.

In case you haven't noticed it, the September 11 Attacks are not a joke. They are not an X-Box game. This is real life. How old are you? 14? 16? You're acting like a child. This is a place for adults. Come back when you grow up.

-Gumboot

[Totovader]

I don't have a political bias - I'm not even an american - so how neutral can you get?
In addition, the situation described in the film has existed for several generations - and through many different US administrations, so how a political bias can come into it, I don't know.

Now that didn't really take very long did it?

Your physical location or birth place has absolutely no bearing on whether you're neutral, open-minded, or rational.

To believe otherwise is similar to racism.

And here we aren't talking about "generations" or "the situation", we are talking about your political bias- an issue you've attempted to dodge by claiming you're neutral. Yet, "we all hate the taxman don't we", and then concluding- through a strawman- that people are "siding with the taxman" shows what lengths you will go to in order to avoid the debate itself.

[Elizabeth I]

Well, you didn't say that did you?
And now you've said this it only gets worse, as any normal person's [fixed that for you - you're welcome] reaction, when they hear a huge explosion, is to think ... 'bomb'.

Only afterwards, do alternative explanations overcome that inherent knee-jerk understanding we all carry.


I'm about as normal as they come, I've heard several loud, unexplained-at-the-time noises in my life, and my reaction was not, "Bomb," but, "What the h*ll was that?" If I were near ground zero on 9/11 and heard an "explosion," my explanation to myself would probably be (1) gas pocket; (2) electrical transformer; (3) jet fuel igniting; (4) crashing metal and masonry.

In the bomb context, I work at my city's central library. We spent a good deal of 1999 evacuating our building due to bomb threats, fire threats, non-specific threats, etc., tied into the Y2K phenomenon. In December 1999, we emptied the building yet again because of an unattended package in one of the restrooms that had been there for several hours. The police brought in a bomb-sniffing dog, which hit on the package. OMG! Bomb! The bomb squad came, the firefighters came, the EMS came, ALL the reporters came. Well, of course, what else COULD it be but a bomb?

Two hours later, when the package was finally opened, it was determined to contain...[wait for it]...Christmas cookies! That's right, someone had forgotten a box of Christmas cookies and the dog had reacted to the aroma. (It was later explained apologetically by his handler that he was "a very young dog.")

My point is this: here was a circumstance where it was very reasonable to conclude, after careful research and consideration, that there might be a bomb. All appropriate precautions were taken, and it turned out NOT to be a bomb. You might remember this ridiculous but true situation next time you posit, "X, Y, Z - OMG, it must have been a [bomb, controlled demolition, arson fire, whatEVER]," and take into account that there may very easily be an alternate and even more simple, obvious explanation.

Such as that a BIG airplane flew into a building and knocked it down.

[scooby]

If I were you I would back away from this train of thought. You are coming very close to accusing many people here of being accessories to murder.

If the cap fits buddy.

[kookbreaker]

If the cap fits buddy.

Reported.

[scooby]

I'm about as normal as they come, I've heard several loud, unexplained-at-the-time noises in my life, and my reaction was not, "Bomb," but, "What the h*ll was that?"

Well you're not as normal as those firefighters - explosion was their initial reaction - after hearing a loud explosion.

We can play around like this for hours if you like, it's not going to change anything. 16% is an old joke now.

[WildCat]

Well you're not as normal as those firefighters - explosion was their initial reaction - after hearing a loud explosion.

We can play around like this for hours if you like, it's not going to change anything. 16% is an old joke now.
Exactly. It wasn't "bomb".

It's always nice when you debunk yourself.

[scooby]

Reported.

Oh really?

I can't wait to see this.

[Darat]

Scooby - Your not-so-veiled accusations of Members here being accessories to murders have been reported. With comments such as that you are breaching your Membership Agreement. Continued breaches of your Membership Agreement may result in further Moderator action including suspension and banning.

[Z]

1) The sound in that video you posted is fake. It's been added in.

2) Ironically, it also doesn't at all sound like explosives used in controlled demolitions.

3) Even if the points above were wrong, it would not be possible to wire sufficient explosives into the towers and conceal the work from the occupants, unnoticed. There was only ever one report, unconfirmed, of a brief powerdown in one tower - insufficient time to even BEGIN planting explosives. And don't start on Chris' 'built to demolish' nonsense, since explosives have an insufficient shelf life.

Any mention of explosives in the towers should be automatically discounted as bunk - as should invisible missiles, space heat rays, and 'no plane' theories.

Fact: Airliners hit the Twin Towers; this caused their collapse.

Now, if you want to address who was BEHIND the hijackers, or who was BEHIND Osama bin Laden, or who put him into power originally... That's another matter. There might be something to discuss there.

But once we get to the morning of, there is only one scenario: hijackers stole some planes and wrecked several buildings, killing lots of people. And that's all there is to it!

[Axiom_Blade]

Now we all hate the taxman don't we?
Don't we?

Because I think people browsing this place might find it odd, a bunch of 'skeptics' eagerly attacking anyone who would want to remove such a tax.

So tone it down a bit, or you'll give the game away.

Personally, I don't hate taxes. I hate certain things they're spent on, such as the war machine, but that's a different matter. I can see how people who are uneducated about how government works would hate taxes, though.

[kookbreaker]

Oh really?

I can't wait to see this.

You were saying?

[Elizabeth I]

Well you're not as normal as those firefighters - explosion was their initial reaction - after hearing a loud explosion.

ROFL!

Exactly. It wasn't "bomb".

It's always nice when you debunk yourself.

Thanks, WildCat.

[fuelair]

Well maybe not the third - thats something out of any single persons hands.
Up to the american people now.
I'm confident.
They have a history of not liking getting ***ed over.
I'm sorry, but this is just total silliness - and if the American people do fall for this load of steaming S888 you all have made up completely from nothing they will get what they deserve - being covered in S888. But I have more faith in us than your gang of lying cowards seems to.

[Dr. Lao]

If the cap fits buddy.


Thanks for pointing out what I always say, when a CT gets confronted and has lost, they just accuse the other of being part of the conspiracy.

[chipmunk stew]

Yup, me me me.

And 2 years before any physics professors or theology professors finally got the balls to say something about it. ahhh ... (cigar), don't you just love it when a plan comes together.

If it wasn't for us pesky kids, posting on the web - they would have gotten away with it. ;)
So you've ended the debate stage, confident that you've established that the official story is indefensible. Excellent--good for you! So...what's the next stage?
Well maybe not the third - thats something out of any single persons hands.
Up to the american people now.
I'm confident.
They have a history of not liking getting ***ed over.
They also have a history of not liking to be taken for a bunch of suckers:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/graph.png

[fuelair]

Thanks for pointing out what I always say, when a CT gets confronted and has lost, they just accuse the other of being part of the conspiracy.


Yes, I just love protecting Bush and his bBoys from the consequences of their involvement being such a good fundamentalist Xtian and Republican as everyone here knows me to be (oops, forgot, on CIA payroll too).:jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp

[twinstead]

Scooby just STOP it for God's sake. In your ideologically addled brain you are some kind of warrior for truth, but to me and probably dozens of lurkers on this forum you are just looking like a paranoid kook.

I realize you don't see it, but trust me; we do.

[T.A.M.]

Scooby, I wish more of your posts were as articulate. So is that what it takes to get you to post logically, with coherence?

TAM:)

[kookbreaker]

Anyone see heaping bowl of drama flakes around here?

Oh, I see someone has helped themselves to it...

[scooby]

Anyone see heaping bowl of drama flakes around here?

Oh, I see someone has helped themselves to it...

Anyone see someone's work cut out for them or utter hypocrisy?

[fuelair]

Our new favorite drama queen - and did I understand it to somehow connect us with those, I must assume from the proven connection of many of the Troofe/woofers with white power/pro-Nazi sites, like the troofers apparent friends who paint swasticas on synagogues. That is a laugh riot as well as truly pathetic.

[Dr. Lao]

CT trick, when you are getting beaten on a subject, bring up another one, and make it a nice long post.

Hopefully you will throw others off the scent and on to another one.

Poor scooby, not an original trick in the book.

[kookbreaker]

Anyone see someone's work cut out for them or utter hypocrisy?

You wish.

You are merely babbling on with too many words about a percieved injustice where the term 'troofer' is somehow equivelant to accusing someone of aiding a murderer.

You had some nice typing up there, scooby, but it was empty whining in the end. You complain about the horror show you've experience, you whine about teh holocost threads you don't like (even though much evidence supports that comment and was a valid point even if you don't like it. The simple fact is: Unless we accuse you directly of holocost denial, we are not accusing you of a crime in any country. You must understand that difference. What we do rightly point out is that your 'movement' is mighty cozy with the HC crowd and has done very, very little to 'clean house' of these elements.

Furthermore, why are you whining now? How many posts did you hit the 'report' button on? You want things to be a certain way, but you probably haven't even taken the first step.

You are not on the high road. Stop pretending you are.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Furthermore, why are you whining now? How many posts did you hit the 'report' button on? You want things to be a certain way, but you probably haven't even taken the first step.
It's like he's obscenely lazy. Rather than report the posts he has a problem with, it seems like he got fed up and started acting offensive so that we'd be forced to "summon the authorities", at which point he tries to turn the situation around and blame everyone else for his actions.

[Loss Leader]

Your medico-gibberish would have some sense to it if you were inducing labor in a pregnant lady who had just swallowed 30 Metoprolol (Blood Pressure Pills), and subsequently became Hypotensive...lol

TAM:)

Dammit, I thought reverse Trendelenburg was the one with the head below the feet. Instead, I moved the table to make it easier for her to deliver.

And I'm familiar with toprol (as well as digoxin, lisinopril, tricor, warfarin, and furosimide). Can you diagnose me from my medicine cabinet alone?

[scooby]

Our new favorite drama queen - and did I understand it to somehow connect us with those, I must assume from the proven connection of many of the Troofe/woofers with white power/pro-Nazi sites, like the troofers apparent friends who paint swasticas on synagogues. That is a laugh riot as well as truly pathetic.

Oh, fuel on the fire is it?
"911 Truther's" friends who paint swastikas on synagogues?
Do you have any evidence to back this up?
In particular, what would the relationship of these people be, if they exist - to me?

[gumboot]

Oh, fuel on the fire is it?
"911 Truther's" friends who paint swastikas on synagogues?
Do you have any evidence to back this up?
In particular, what would the relationship of these people be, if they exist - to me?


Has anyone accused you of having friends who paint swastikas on synagogues?

-Gumboot

[scooby]

I'm sure I don't really have to say this but here goes:

I'm a lawyer and everything Scooby said above is just utter nonsense. I mean, none of it is the least bit right.

Correction: You, my friend, are an anonymous poster on an internet forum.

[Abbyas]

Back to the topic fer a sec:

Scooby, do you have a checking account or savings account in the US? Ever borrowed money from a bank (or had a credit card with one)? Do you realize that without the Fed Reserve the costs of such loans would be ridiculously high? Do you realize that without the Fed that there would be great risk on runs on banks?

It is NOT a private institution. Do you know where all profits of the Fed go to? The US Treasury. I sincerely suggest you do your own research on the subject and do not regurgitate what others tell you. Be your own Man/Woman.

[Axiom_Blade]

It is NOT a private institution. Do you know where all profits of the Fed go to? The US Treasury. I sincerely suggest you do your own research on the subject and do not regurgitate what others tell you. Be your own Man/Woman.

I found this (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/1154/flaherty.html) to be quite enlightening.

Also: JUST PAY YOUR FRIGGIN TAXES, PEOPLE.

[kookbreaker]

Correction: You, my friend, are an anonymous poster on an internet forum.

Its always fun to watch random, bitter reactions like this when a kook gets swatted on the nose over the nonsense he spewed a few posts before.

[Totovader]

Correction: You, my friend, are an anonymous poster on an internet forum.

I don't even exist...


:drool:

[Loss Leader]

Correction: You, my friend, are an anonymous poster on an internet forum.


If being an anonymous poster means that my words can be discarded because anyone can write anything on the internet, the same rule should apply to you.

Thus, all of your ridiculous nonsense regarding investigating who painted Swasticas can be disregarded. Your claim about the ACLU can be ignored. Your long rant regarding being defamed on this message board can and should just be laughed away. You are an anonymous poster on the internet and, thus, your childish threats are worthless.

[scooby]

If being an anonymous poster means that my words can be discarded because anyone can write anything on the internet, the same rule should apply to you.

Thus, all of your ridiculous nonsense regarding investigating who painted Swasticas can be disregarded. Your claim about the ACLU can be ignored. Your long rant regarding being defamed on this message board can and should just be laughed away. You are an anonymous poster on the internet and, thus, your childish threats are worthless.

Not really - your claim to be a lawyer will have to be taken with a pinch of salt, as let's face it - it will never be confirmed.

Whereas the information relating to the preparation of a possible civil liberties case with the assistance of the ACLU has already been posted in the COINTELPRO thread. A case to investigate who is behind what seems to be an organised campaign of harassment and disruption of people's right to assemble and free speech, for which information is being requested in support.

I find it interesting that as of yet I have had no response to my question of the moderator, merely a deletion of it ... here it is again ...


Post already moved to Forum Management deleted.

If you wish to discuss Forum Management issues please do so in the Forum Management section.

[uk_dave]

Please go ahead - if you have 15 points of contention with my post, by all means go ahead with your detailed analysis. Before you do though, I would repeat my initial assertion made early in my visit here - that the time for debate is over. This reflects an emerging consensus in the 911 truth community which I agree with.

Better get up off your arse and DO SOMETHING then.

[chipmunk stew]

Not really - your claim to be a lawyer will have to be taken with a pinch of salt, as let's face it - it will never be confirmed.

Whereas the information relating to the preparation of a possible civil liberties case with the assistance of the ACLU has already been posted in the COINTELPRO thread. A case to investigate who is behind what seems to be an organised campaign of harassment and disruption of people's right to assemble and free speech, for which information is being requested in support.

I find it interesting that as of yet I have had no response to my question of the moderator, merely a deletion of it ... here it is again ...
There's a lot you find "interesting", isn't there? The "deletion" (i.e. movement) of your post to the Forum Management section is completely consistent with the forum moderators' past actions. If you disagree with a forum management decision, the place to voice it is in the Forum Management section.

Also, the moderators are generally very responsive to PM's--have you tried that?

[chipmunk stew]

So is this the next stage, scooby? You're going to start going after the little guys, the pawns sent by the higher-ups to disrupt your free speech rights, and work your way up the chain of command?

Awesome. This is going to be like Perry Mason: The Comedy. I can't wait!

:popcorn1

[Loss Leader]

Not really - your claim to be a lawyer will have to be taken with a pinch of salt, as let's face it - it will never be confirmed.


The confirmation is in the consistency. What have you confirmed about yourself through consistency?

[gumboot]

I find it interesting that as of yet I have had no response to my question of the moderator, merely a deletion of it ... here it is again ...



If you want to address the moderators you should do so directly, or create a thread in the Forum Management subforum (which, incidently, is where your "deleted" post was moved to).

The Moderators do not trawl every single thread on the off chance that someone might decide to try communicate with them amidst a discussion about the preferred methods of strawberry cultivation.

-Gumboot

[uk_dave]

What; all of them?

It was a Massive conspiracy....didn't you know that?

Even my mother was in on it....and her with a dodgy hip too!

[gumboot]

It was a Massive conspiracy....didn't you know that?

Even my mother was in on it....and her with a dodgy hip too!



No, no, it was a raging conspiracy. It's the evidence supporting it that is massive. Ask Alex Jones.

-Gumboot

[fuelair]

The confirmation is in the consistency. What have you confirmed about yourself through consistency?

I have reason to believe his consistency is the same as that of a pile of Scooby Doo. But that's just a scientific estimate!
:D :D

[scooby]

If you want to address the moderators you should do so directly, or create a thread in the Forum Management subforum (which, incidently, is where your "deleted" post was moved to).

I did, publicly - in its rightful place next to the moderators public complaint - and also PM'd said moderator - but I have had no reply yet - nor was there any clarification in the Forum Management section.

I think the questions I have raised are clear, absent a response I don't think the onus is on me to issue follow ups, though I will check again for clarification of this rule which allows accusations of Holocaust Denial to be bandied around willy nilly.

But so far I'm very happy with the inconsistency and hypocrisy demonstrated.
This is not a surprise.

[T.A.M.]

I did, publicly - in its rightful place next to the moderators public complaint - and also PM'd said moderator - but I have had no reply yet - nor was there any clarification in the Forum Management section.

I think the questions I have raised are clear, absent a response I don't think the onus is on me to issue follow ups, though I will check again for clarification of this rule which allows accusations of Holocaust Denial to be bandied around willy nilly.

But so far I'm very happy with the inconsistency and hypocrisy demonstrated.
This is not a surprise.

You wouldn't likely get the flack if you were making comment on a group as a whole. For instance, I have seen many a truther come on here and make all sorts of derogatory comments about "JREFers", and not get banned or suspended for it. If you are setting your sites on individuals, however, you are likely crossing the line.

See I do not think linking Holocaust Denial to the truth movement is a breech of anything. Now if they said, Scooby, you are a holocaust denier, without proof, that might be a valid case to take to a mod.

Get what I am saying?

TAM:)

[scooby]

You wouldn't likely get the flack if you were making comment on a group as a whole. For instance, I have seen many a truther come on here and make all sorts of derogatory comments about "JREFers", and not get banned or suspended for it. If you are setting your sites on individuals, however, you are likely crossing the line.

See I do not think linking Holocaust Denial to the truth movement is a breech of anything. Now if they said, Scooby, you are a holocaust denier, without proof, that might be a valid case to take to a mod.

Get what I am saying?

TAM:)

Yes, but I still fail to see why all this applies to me and what I have posted here?

Please point out where I have made specific accusations of this or similar nature against any poster? I won't hold my breath.

[Anti-sophist]

I was hoping there'd be some Aaron Russo gibberish in this thread to debunk. Disappointment reigns!

[T.A.M.]

Yes, but I still fail to see why all this applies to me and what I have posted here?

Please point out where I have made specific accusations of this or similar nature against any poster? I won't hold my breath.

If what you say is true, and you accused no particular member, or a couple of members, of this, but rather, you were making a general comment about Debunkers as a group, than that is probably why you recieved a warning ONLY.

So why no warning for those here accusing the truth movement of holocaust denial? Well I can only speculate. Perhaps it is because accusing someone, or even an entire group, of mass murder is much more serious an accusation than that of Holocaust Denial, though both may seem harsh.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

If the cap fits buddy.

This was a reply you made to gumboot when he said you were close to accusing members of mass murder.

This reply is extremely close to a personal accusation that gumboot is guilty of such...IMO.

TAM:)

[boloboffin]

But the official story is a 'conspiracy theory', a theory, that Osama Bin Laden, and 19 men in sandals, conspired to defeat the entire US air defences and owned US air space for an hour and a half, bringing down three buildings, with two planes.

It is the biggest crock of **** the world has ever heard.

In sandals? I think you should stick to the "caveman" rhetoric - or would "raghead" work better for you?

[T.A.M.]

The ignorance in his comment is obvious. The leaders of the 19 were wearing sandals alright, but they were Birkenstocks, bought at a shoe store in civilized Germany, not Afghanistan.

TAM:)

[tundranaut]

.

I often wonder how people who really have lived under Fascist regimes, or in real police states feel when they hear some raving loon going on and on about how the US is a police state run by jackbooted thug Fascists.

Excellent point. I've often wondered the same thing but haven't been able to articulate it as succintly as you just did.

The anarchist/armchair activist/"Down With FILL-IN-THE-BLANK!!" crowd is--for all intents and purposes--a bunch of poseurs who want to wear a badge of turmoil without actually having to experience the trauma of said turmoil.

Frickin' screwball kids.

[scooby]

In sandals? I think you should stick to the "caveman" rhetoric - or would "raghead" work better for you?

LOL

You betray your bigotry without even knowing it.

Since when is wearing sandals an insult?
Is it because I'm comparing them with .... ewww 'Arabs'?
They were Arabs - they do wear sandals.
It's a reference to the primitive nature of life in Afghanistan - not an insult you boob.

Hilarious.
Absolutely hilarious.

And no, I'm not the one killing 'ragheads', 'sand nigrahs' and 'hajis' in Iraq.

[scooby]

Better get up off your arse and DO SOMETHING then.

I do.
I'm very active.
I distribute leaflets with a picture of Bush on em - with a Hitler moustache drawn on. They're very popular.
People get the message.
It goes down well.

[Axiom_Blade]

LOL
It's a reference to the primitive nature of life in Afghanistan - not an insult you boob.


But I thought they were from Saudi Arabia?


Hilarious.
Absolutely hilarious.


Children are easily amused.

[gumboot]

I do.
I'm very active.
I distribute leaflets with a picture of Bush on em - with a Hitler moustache drawn on. They're very popular.
People get the message.
It goes down well.

Stundie material if ever I saw it!

-Gumboot

[Pardalis]

I distribute leaflets with a picture of Bush on em - with a Hitler moustache drawn on.

Impressive. :rolleyes:

[Loss Leader]

But the official story is a 'conspiracy theory', a theory, that Osama Bin Laden, and 19 men in sandals, conspired to defeat the entire US air defences and owned US air space for an hour and a half, bringing down three buildings, with two planes.


Heck, why not include WTC 5? It didn't fall on 9/11, but it was so badly damaged that it had to be brought down anyway. That makes four buildings with two planes.

How did the hijackers "defeat" US air defenses? The flights originated inside the US and our air defenses were designed to stop bombers from flying in from outside the US.

Also, all 19 were wearing sandals? How did you get that information?

[chipmunk stew]

LOL

You betray your bigotry without even knowing it.

Since when is wearing sandals an insult?
Is it because I'm comparing them with .... ewww 'Arabs'?
They were Arabs - they do wear sandals.
It's a reference to the primitive nature of life in Afghanistan - not an insult you boob.

Hilarious.
Absolutely hilarious.

And no, I'm not the one killing 'ragheads', 'sand nigrahs' and 'hajis' in Iraq.
You betray your bigotry (and your ignorance of the basic facts of the official account of 9/11) without even knowing it.

Of the 19 men who carried out the attacks, 15 were Saudis, two were from the UAE, one was Egyptian, and one was Lebanese. Some lived, worked, and studied in Germany at least five years before 9/11, and they lived in the US for about a year before 9/11. They were all thoroughly modern men who spent quite a bit of time in closed-toed shoes. :rolleyes:

[stateofgrace]

LOL

You betray your bigotry without even knowing it.

Since when is wearing sandals an insult?
Is it because I'm comparing them with .... ewww 'Arabs'?
They were Arabs - they do wear sandals.
It's a reference to the primitive nature of life in Afghanistan - not an insult you boob.

Hilarious.
Absolutely hilarious.

And no, I'm not the one killing 'ragheads', 'sand nigrahs' and 'hajis' in Iraq.

I'm sorry to see you find it hilarious.

You are correct you are not the one killing people inside Iraq, neither am I.

You are the one that is using the deaths of these people to promote crackpot theories though.

[chipmunk stew]

Heck, why not include WTC 5? It didn't fall on 9/11, but it was so badly damaged that it had to be brought down anyway. That makes four buildings with two planes.
3, 4 & 6 were also razed. And don't forget St. Nicholas, Deutsche Bank and Fiterman Hall. That makes ten.

[gumboot]

3, 4 & 6 were also razed. And don't forget St. Nicholas, Deutsche Bank and Fiterman Hall. That makes ten.


Strike!

-Gumboot

[Loss Leader]

Strike!

-Gumboot

It's not a strike. There were two planes - that makes it a spare.

[Horatius]

So why no warning for those here accusing the truth movement of holocaust denial? Well I can only speculate. Perhaps it is because accusing someone, or even an entire group, of mass murder is much more serious an accusation than that of Holocaust Denial, though both may seem harsh.

TAM:)



There's also the fact that we can show several prominent members of the twoof movement are in fact Holocaust Deniers, while any accusations against debunkers being a "part of the 9/11 conspiracy" are pure speculation.

So once again, evidence wins the day.