Split from: Severe Depression

[bigred]

:mad:

NO IT IS NOT A "MEDICAL PROBLEM!"

Sorry AS I swear this is not aimed at you or anyone specifically and apologies to anyone up front offended. But this is exactly the kind of thing I was trying to caution against - ie the growing, disturbing and frankly grossly irresponsible mindset in our society - and unbelievably, alleged psychological professionals - that if someone is depressed, it's a "medical condition" or a "chemical imbalance." Far more often than not THIS IS NOT TRUE despite how desperately our insta-fix society wants it to be. Why do they want that to be true? Because it makes things easy. Don't sit around hacking through the problem(s) itself and work things out; just pop a pill!

In fact if you think of it, it's absurd. Lost your job? You're not depressed because of that....it's a chemical imbalance. House burned down? You're not depressed because of that....it's a chemical imbalance. Romance break up? Spouse or family member just died? Legs bit off by a shark?? You're not really depressed because of that.....it's a chemical imbalance. Here munch on some prozac/zoloft/similar trendy anti-depressant happy pills. You'll be fine!


Based on the info given, it sounds very much like this depression is caused by a lost love. Again that is not to diminish the pain J is feeling to say the least. But this "well you're depressed, go get some happy pills" is way off the mark and every time I see or hear of a "doctor" or psycho-whatever throwing these things around like candy I want to vomit. These people belong in a walk-in clinic handing out band-aids, nothing more potentially damaging.

J again obviously none of us can say for sure, and I agree there is the possibility that at some point you do or should consider some kind of anti-depressants. But I hope you get a good therapist who is good at helping you TALK THROUGH and work out these problems...hopefully (eventually) through talks with them, and your "ex" will get your life back. If nothing else, "worst case" you will realize you need to move on and start over. 'Course none of those options are easy or quick. But unless you really do or have lapsed into chronic....ie long-term, cannot function, doesn't matter if the love thing is resolved or not....depression, I strongly suggest that if at all possible you avoid the happy pills and ONLY try them as a last resort.

/rant

[AmateurScientist]

OK, one more time. Suicidal ideations are a serious f:mad: king symptom of a possible medical emergency. To spell it out for you, bigred, sometimes when persons have suicidal ideations, they actually act upon them and kill themselves. They don't have to be diagnosed as depressed, and they don't have to have a depression that is caused by an organic, chemical imbalance, and they don't have to be depressed for long in order to kill themselves. It can take just a moment of succumbing to those ideations to be fatal, or it can take years of flirting with them. The person is dead all the same.

If someone is thinking of suicide persistently, it is a crisis. The emergency room of a hospital can be a perfectly appropriate venue for some crisis intervention in such a case. What you are doing -- trying to talk him out of seeking help -- can be deadly. Stop it, you jackass.

AS

[Mr. Skinny]

bigred and AS,

Probably best if you took this discussion to PM or another thread, unless both of you feel doing it in this thread is somehow a benefit to Jesus.

[AmateurScientist]

bigred and AS,

Probably best if you took this discussion to PM or another thread, unless both of you feel doing it in this thread is somehow a benefit to Jesus.

I don't care a flip what bigred has to say, and I'm not the least bit interested in having a discussion with him. The only reason I posted my response is because he is undermining the only good advice Jesus is getting in this thread, which is to recognize that suicidal ideations, and the other thoughts he has been having, are very likely symptomatic of depression, and that he needs to recognize that for the serious medical problem it can be. It is a potentially life threatening problem. Life threatening.

So, yes, the only reason I'm posting here is for Jesus' sake. I never thought I would write that sentence, but I just did.

Bigred, stop undermining serious advice Jesus is getting here. I am not overstating the case. Suicidal thoughts are potentially deadly. It's best that you just don't reply, bigred, not to me, and not to this thread.

Jesus, keep working on that appointment with a medical doctor, as in an MD, not a psychotherapist, not a counselor, but a medical doctor. Get a referral to a psychiatrist if necessary. That's what they do professionally all day -- they treat persons with depression and other illnesses.

I'm done here. Skinny, I like you, but I don't care how you feel about it. I posted here for Jesus' sake, and only his sake.

AS

[bigred]

OK, one more time. Suicidal ideations are a serious f:mad: king symptom of a possible medical emergency. To spell it out for you, bigred, sometimes when persons have suicidal ideations, they actually act upon them and kill themselves. They don't have to be diagnosed as depressed, and they don't have to have a depression that is caused by an organic, chemical imbalance, and they don't have to be depressed for long in order to kill themselves. It can take just a moment of succumbing to those ideations to be fatal, or it can take years of flirting with them. The person is dead all the same.

If someone is thinking of suicide persistently, it is a crisis. The emergency room of a hospital can be a perfectly appropriate venue for some crisis intervention in such a case. What you are doing -- trying to talk him out of seeking help -- can be deadly. Stop it, you jackass.

AS
Christ you're f(cking stupid. Try actually reading not just my post but J's last one. He is seeking help and hardly sounds suicidal, and either way I sure as hell am not trying to stop him from seeking help. And how does that make this a "medical problem" anyway? Yknow, the entire point of my post? Nice reading comprehension. How many years did it take you to pass English anyway?

Try untying those knots in your panties and actually attempt to comprehend what I said and what he's said and perhaps the fog in your brain will clear a bit.

I doubt it though. Get family and friends to help, as you are clearly in desperate need of it. Hell maybe you should hit the ER, I think you just popped a major artery in your brain.

[bigred]

Bigred, stop undermining serious advice Jesus is getting here. I am not overstating the case. Suicidal thoughts are potentially deadly. It's best that you just don't reply, bigred, not to me, and not to this thread.
I see so your advice is "serious" but mine isn't. You pompous ass.

I am also posting this for J's benefit. That you disagree with me at all does not make my posts any less relevant or valid - in fact IMO more so. Have you ever suffered from severe/chronic depression? Ever worked with people who suffered from it? With suicidal people? Know any psychologists personally? I can answer in the affirmative in all cases slick. You? Point being I think I know at least a little about this (not that that necessarily makes me right in any given instance) and your implications to the contrary are a freaking joke.

And PS unlike you I'm not twisting anyone's words because someone dared to disagree with me. Get a grip.

Jesus, keep working on that appointment with a medical doctor, as in an MD, not a psychotherapist, not a counselor, but a medical doctor. Your irresponsibility is now blatant and dangerous. Who the hell are you to say "don't see a psychotherapist"

J, seek help however you feel it best to do, as I've already said at least twice. Bottom line, don't take either me OR AS's advice (or anyone else's) as gospel. You impress me as an intelligent person, so do what you feel best and always consider other avenues if whatever you choose doesn't seem to help. I only caution you to consider carefully and be well.


I'm done here. Thank God.

[jmercer]

Wow. Who'da thunk it? A major blow up over something I don't even see as controversial!

First off... I find webmd (http://www.webmd.com/depression/tc/Depression-Topic-Overview) to be a pretty good source for discussion like these. (The link takes you directly to the depression page overview)


Depression may be triggered by stressful life events, other illnesses, certain drugs or medications, or inherited traits. Although causes of depression are not entirely understood, we know it is linked to an imbalance in brain chemistry. Once the imbalance is corrected, symptoms of depression generally improve.

You might also want to go to this page, which provides information on the causes of depression (http://www.webmd.com/depression/tc/Depression-Cause).

As I said - "normal" depression can actually lead to clinical depression, where a chemical imbalance in the brain makes it virtually impossible to find your way out of it.

Point is that there's no value for Jesus (or anyone!) to guess if he's clinically depressed or not. Just go and find out. :)

[trvlr2]

Wow, that was pretty intense!
I took Bigred's point to be the overmedication of the public by whomever, for whatever reasons.
When life kicks your nads, you are entitled to a little depression. When someone dies, you are entitled to grieve.

Extreme cases do need some help, maybe. If you and yours feel like getting help, do so.

[SirPhilip]

Amateur Scientist is very correct here. Situations directly regulate our mood and outlook. Conversely, physical imbalances directly affect how situations are interpreted, regardless of the situation itself. If both a situational and neurochemical imbalance play merry devil a medical emergency does most likely exist. The person experiencing varying degrees of anhedonia, is psychophysically handicapped or completely disabled. Common daily tasks, to use a simple analogy, are like scaling a jagged cliff in -20f weather. Pointless, stressful, and futile.

[Solus]

:mad:

NO IT IS NOT A "MEDICAL PROBLEM!"

Sorry AS I swear this is not aimed at you or anyone specifically and apologies to anyone up front offended. But this is exactly the kind of thing I was trying to caution against - ie the growing, disturbing and frankly grossly irresponsible mindset in our society - and unbelievably, alleged psychological professionals - that if someone is depressed, it's a "medical condition" or a "chemical imbalance." Far more often than not THIS IS NOT TRUE despite how desperately our insta-fix society wants it to be. Why do they want that to be true? Because it makes things easy. Don't sit around hacking through the problem(s) itself and work things out; just pop a pill!

In fact if you think of it, it's absurd. Lost your job? You're not depressed because of that....it's a chemical imbalance. House burned down? You're not depressed because of that....it's a chemical imbalance. Romance break up? Spouse or family member just died? Legs bit off by a shark?? You're not really depressed because of that.....it's a chemical imbalance. Here munch on some prozac/zoloft/similar trendy anti-depressant happy pills. You'll be fine!


Based on the info given, it sounds very much like this depression is caused by a lost love. Again that is not to diminish the pain J is feeling to say the least. But this "well you're depressed, go get some happy pills" is way off the mark and every time I see or hear of a "doctor" or psycho-whatever throwing these things around like candy I want to vomit. These people belong in a walk-in clinic handing out band-aids, nothing more potentially damaging.

J again obviously none of us can say for sure, and I agree there is the possibility that at some point you do or should consider some kind of anti-depressants. But I hope you get a good therapist who is good at helping you TALK THROUGH and work out these problems...hopefully (eventually) through talks with them, and your "ex" will get your life back. If nothing else, "worst case" you will realize you need to move on and start over. 'Course none of those options are easy or quick. But unless you really do or have lapsed into chronic....ie long-term, cannot function, doesn't matter if the love thing is resolved or not....depression, I strongly suggest that if at all possible you avoid the happy pills and ONLY try them as a last resort.

/rant

Or you could be like me and have a type of bipolar disorder as well a severe anxiety disorder. The last 10 years of my life have been hell essentially. I'm not very old either. You remind of my stepfather, since he has never experienced any sort of psychological problem. He is completely obtuse and ignorant on this issue. Sadly I hear this often from those with mental illness, the family does not understand and does not cooperate, same attitude as you display. "Just snap out of it, stop being lazy". :rolleyes:

A decent psychiatrist will not prescribe medication to a person so quickly,
I can't speak for regular M.Ds though. You would do well to educate yourself on this issue before writing about it. Newsweek and the television media does not count.

[Solus]

For the record I'd be dead without a "happy pill" my family doesn't quite believe it and hates spending the money on. I can't yet afford to pay for it myself. After living in that hell for so long there is no way I can go back there. I guess though we should not give medication to anyone and let nature take it's proper course...

Did you ever receive vaccinations Bigred? Ever take any medication for anything in your life? You would be dead too maybe... Fun isn't it, but we don't need science in this world, right?

One very serious note, what you typed was beyond stupid. If you don't know something and the matter is this serious keep your asinine opinions to yourself.

[athon]

Well Big Red, come live my life for a year or so then make up your ignorant mind.

Depression is not a case of having a run of bad luck and then feeling miserable. I have a bloody good life. Great job, no debts or worries...flawless. I'm often dating rather beautiful and intelligent girls (committing full time to one girl has been something I've avoided by choice, for good or bad, and not because I'm disliked), have a place to live, good friends. I have the perfect life.

Every now and then throughout my life, typically without any perceivable cause, I feel like absolute s**t. I have strategies in dealing with it, but if I didn't, I would not get out of bed. I'd loathe myself and undertake actions to make others hate me, simply to justify the sensation. The closest I can describe it; it's like wearing dark sunglasses on a bright day. The world feels grey and overcast, but you know there are no clouds. I would indeed feel suicidal on a bad day, and would force that self-aggression onto others through emotional abuse.

I was diagnosed by with clincal depression in 2002. I didn't like the idea, so went to another counciller who referred me to another doctor who basically said the same thing as the first. It did make sense, ultimately; periodically my brain simply shut down and made the world look awful. I couldn't cope.

I'm not a weak person by any means, and when I'm not having an episode I can really tell the difference. The swings are pretty major (as my closest friends know).

Your ignorance on the topic, seeing it as just an episode of the blues, is something I encounter quite often. But I ruined a marriage and a few good friendships because I felt 'the blues'? I seriously doubt it. Especially when there was nothing in my life to cause it. Sure, depression is often brought on by periods of ill-coping, and grief, and it often compounds a situation I could otherwise deal with easily.

I have little hope that you'd change your mind on this, as it seems to offend your sensitivity on the topic of pscyhological illnesses. But if I had have continued thinking as you did a number of years ago, I never would have found a way to cope with the occasionally slip-ups in my head and would probably be continuing with the self-destruction.

Athon

[Dr. Imago]

There can be a multitude of psychologic causes for persistently feeling a certain way, and that's the key. Bottom line is that if one feels it is interfering with one's quality of life, then that person should seek help. I'd also recommend a qualified psychiatrist, preferably working in conjuction with a behavioralist (MS or PhD in psychology), to be appropriately assessed. Medication is only part of a multi-disciplinary approach.

I do agree that, too often, a primary care physician may not be able to devote the time or expertise to tease out the specific problems associated with persistent negative feelings. Sadly, part of the "pill culture" in the U.S. is to simply prescribe a medication which treats the symptoms but not the root of the disease. However, relying on "family and friends" to help you out is not always an advisable solution, as they are usually ill-equipped to understand or comprehend the causes of such feelings not to mention the fact they they may be the source of some of them. Likewise, some people may not have supportive family and friends to turn to.

Anyone feeling this way should get help. There's nothing to be ashamed about. You won't be judged. You do have the ability, through time, talking, discovery, and - yes - often medication, to regain the ability to cope with and effectively manage negative feelings.

Get help.

-Dr. Imago

[William Rea]

I thought attitudes had changed but clearly not, so I will contribute my 2 cents worth in as plain language as I can.

If your "mood" is affecting any of your normal routines then go see your GP (MD) immediately! There is no shame, no stigma and no sense on the part of GP's that you are wasting their time.

Be open and honest. Men especially find it incredibly hard to emotionally open up and tend to downplay how the depression and anxiety are affecting them.

The GP will ask you if you are having suicidal ideation as part of the consultation because many anti-depressants can make this symptom worse initially.

In most cases the GP will immediately prescribe a moderate dose of an antidepressant and make an appointment for a consultation with a local psychiatric department.

If you don't get this result then make sure the GP explains why.

[athon]

People still seem to find it difficult to accept that our mental state is at the whim of a foundation of biochemistry. Every thought, feeling and drive is biochemical. Environment can indeed push these levels up and down variably, and feeling down one day is not exactly a sign that your levels are out of whack. However, when there is no obvious cause, or the normal process of dealing with problems is impeded, then there is reason to believe that the chemistry of the brain is abnormal.

If your insulin levels are abnormal, you have diabetes, and nobody in their right mind would argue that this is not a medical problem. So why is it such a problem to see why abnormal levels in one's neurochemistry might be a medical issue?

Whether it should be immediately addressed with medication is, of course, to be questioned. But then this is my approach with any medical problem; if there is a way of addressing the problem without the need for drugs, then it should be pursued, especially concerning the rather delicate nature of neurochemistry.

Athon

[SirPhilip]

Be open and honest. Men especially find it incredibly hard to emotionally open up and tend to downplay how the depression and anxiety are affecting them. News to me. But women don't either?


In most cases the GP will immediately prescribe a moderate dose of an antidepressant and make an appointment for a consultation with a local psychiatric department. SSRIs should only be used to treat depression as a result of chemical imbalance. Otherwise the reasoning and consequences are no different than alcoholism or overuse of narcotics. The high requirement of artificial stability wanes, while a physical tolerance develops. What doesn't change is the reason for the substance abuse, which is constantly covered up through chemical self-harm. Any doctor who uses his authority and qualifications to prescribe someone SSRIs because of a situation, not a disabling chemical imbalance, commits a far larger crime than any street drug dealer.

[TobiasTheViking]

Wow, good this was split off, horrible that it was started.

[William Rea]

News to me. But women don't either?

Only speaking from experience but, there tends to be a machismo element with men.

I was in no way trying to downplay the seriousness of depression in women. Sorry if I gave that impression.

[qwrty]

I don't believe anybody has the right to stop others from committing suicide. Right to live is also Right to die. It's a free country!

[athon]

I don't believe anybody has the right to stop others from committing suicide. Right to live is also Right to die. It's a free country!

Which is why I've never considered myself a libertarian. People can be at the mercy of their own mental ill health. I'd prefer to live in a society where people are prevented from being caused harm and destruction, even if it is at their own hands.

Skeptics endeavour to help protect people from the harm they could potentially cause themselves through ill thinking, be it through lack of critical thinking or through illogical rationalisation. Why is it suddenly different when they wish to kill themselves? Indeed, it's often worse than the result of an illogical process of thinking -- suicide results from such an extreme breakdown of mental processes that it is rarely just the result of poor thinking, but often screwed up neurochemistry.

I've said this before; nobody of a healthy mind wishes to do themselves harm.

Athon

[TobiasTheViking]

people are free to do and say all sorts of things. Everyone else is free to try to convince said person that (s)he is wrong.

[Dancing David]

Christ you're f(cking stupid. Try actually reading not just my post but J's last one. He is seeking help and hardly sounds suicidal, and either way I sure as hell am not trying to stop him from seeking help. And how does that make this a "medical problem" anyway? Yknow, the entire point of my post? Nice reading comprehension. How many years did it take you to pass English anyway?

Try untying those knots in your panties and actually attempt to comprehend what I said and what he's said and perhaps the fog in your brain will clear a bit.

I doubt it though. Get family and friends to help, as you are clearly in desperate need of it. Hell maybe you should hit the ER, I think you just popped a major artery in your brain.

Perhaps if you actualy knew some mental health professionals you wouldn't make such sweeping generalizations, the choice to seek medication is a personal one. You CAN REFUSE medication when you are on a psychiatric unit. When people get medicated against thier will it takes a court order or an actual threat to self or others that is clear and present. On a psych floor you are likely to be restrained but not medicated against your will. Unless you deliberately and intentionaly harm someone (excluding and sometimes including psychosis) you will not be medicaly treated but arrested.

Most mental health professionals are not pill pushers, the average time that a person goes untreated is often very long. So perhaps some education would give you a broader perspective, in fact the "we never used to treat this and you shouldn't" is a very prevalent attitude in the US.

There are people who over perscibe and don't do sufficient assesment and diagnosis, including psychiatrists, but if you want to find quick solutions, it is people asking thier GP for help.

In the case of J he said that he has likely had the depression prior to the break up with his girlfriend and that is has lasted a while.

Medication is not helpful to everyone, usualy some life management training, like getting enough sleep and avoiding caffine will benefit many people, CBT will benefit more, and medication is there for those who feel it will benefit them.

Perhaps your extreme attitude is just as harmful as those you say are over treating depression. In my experience of doing intakes and assesments for fiveteen years, most people coming in make the choice as to what they feel will benefit them, a good clinician will discuss the options and leave it to the clients.
I did weekly assesments for ten years and saw over four hundred people there,I did intakes for 3 years and saw 200 and talked to hundreds more on the phone, I did crisis and assesment for two years and did 300 assesments and probably one hundred crisis interventions. The choice is usualy left to the client. Most people will make a choice that they feel will benefit them , even in the ER. Many people just want to talk to someone, and then some will want counseling only , others will only want to see the doctor.

I understand you may doubt the medical model of depression and no, people should not seek medication for short term depressive symptoms, but what would you recomend for someone who is sleeping three hours a night and has suicidal ideation with a plan, even though thier symtoms have lasted less than a week?

[Dancing David]

For the record I'd be dead without a "happy pill" my family doesn't quite believe it and hates spending the money on. I can't yet afford to pay for it myself. After living in that hell for so long there is no way I can go back there. I guess though we should not give medication to anyone and let nature take it's proper course...

Did you ever receive vaccinations Bigred? Ever take any medication for anything in your life? You would be dead too maybe... Fun isn't it, but we don't need science in this world, right?

One very serious note, what you typed was beyond stupid. If you don't know something and the matter is this serious keep your asinine opinions to yourself.

Sorry to be a Nosey Norbert but have you tried the pharmaceutical assistance programs, they usualy only cover newer meds. i hated the year and a half I was off my meds.

It is a damn shame that they charge so much for the mood stabalizers.

[Mercutio]

We have had some posters here argue very well that depression is not the result of a biochemical imbalance.

Remember, it is not actually the case that it either A) is the result of a biochemical imbalance or B) is not. There is also C) a diagnosis of depression may reflect the influence of any of a number of different underlying physiological conditions.

Even if there is no *one* biochemical imbalance to explain the symptoms of depression (and as one who suffered from extreme hypothyroidism, I assure you there is not *one* physiological syndrome causing these symptoms), that does not mean that one should not seek medical attention for those symptoms. Be aware, because there are several possible causes, there is a possibility of misdiagnosis. This is the case with any medical problem, whether somatic or behavioral. But in my (I am not a physician) opinion, the potential cost of not seeing a doctor is much greater than the potential cost of seing one.

[Dancing David]

News to me. But women don't either?

SSRIs should only be used to treat depression as a result of chemical imbalance. Otherwise the reasoning and consequences are no different than alcoholism or overuse of narcotics. The high requirement of artificial stability wanes, while a physical tolerance develops. What doesn't change is the reason for the substance abuse, which is constantly covered up through chemical self-harm. Any doctor who uses his authority and qualifications to prescribe someone SSRIs because of a situation, not a disabling chemical imbalance, commits a far larger crime than any street drug dealer.

What evidence do you have that psychotropics other than anxiolytics are addictive? A person should not be perscribed an AD unless they are depressed, but they are no more addictive than insulin is to a diabetic.

Now a depressed person should learn healthy skills just as a diabetic should control their diet.

But ADs are not addictive. You have stated it before, that they are addictive, now back your assertion with evidence.

Where is your data and research? Demonstrate that ADs are addictive and that they meet the criteria as set forth in the DSMIV-R for substance dependance, show me all relevant studies and data. The mere assertion that diabetes requires higher doses of insulin does not constitute addiction.

Do you know the difference between exogenous and endogenous depression? If it is depression it doesn't matter. If there is the prescription of any AD or psychotropic medication there should be weekly monitoring of symtoms and side effects (until they adjust), patients should be informed of the side effects and warned to call thier doctor if they occur.

edited to remove extraneous sarcasm and pomposity.

[athon]

We have had some posters here argue very well that depression is not the result of a biochemical imbalance.

Remember, it is not actually the case that it either A) is the result of a biochemical imbalance or B) is not. There is also C) a diagnosis of depression may reflect the influence of any of a number of different underlying physiological conditions.

Even if there is no *one* biochemical imbalance to explain the symptoms of depression (and as one who suffered from extreme hypothyroidism, I assure you there is not *one* physiological syndrome causing these symptoms), that does not mean that one should not seek medical attention for those symptoms. Be aware, because there are several possible causes, there is a possibility of misdiagnosis. This is the case with any medical problem, whether somatic or behavioral. But in my (I am not a physician) opinion, the potential cost of not seeing a doctor is much greater than the potential cost of seing one.

This was actually my argument for deciding to try more behavioural changes to address the problem rather than chemical. I don't doubt that it's a biochemical skew that creates depression, although the underlying impediments and influences might not be so clear cut. In addition, biochemistry is a complicated field, and the blunt tools of pharmaceutical treatments aren't always the most efficient at tuning our biochemistry.

That said, sometimes even a blunt tool can slam the system back into being somewhat more useful. Knowing when and how is something that is open to questioning, of course.

Athon

[SirPhilip]

Only speaking from experience but, there tends to be a machismo element with men. Tends? :g1:

[SirPhilip]

I don't believe anybody has the right to stop others from committing suicide. Right to live is also Right to die. It's a free country! The problem is, you can affect somebody's mood to the point they will want to die. Emotions are the catalyst of thoughts. If you are anhedonic/dysthymic all your thoughts will be constrained into cascades of miserable associations or flat judgements.

[SirPhilip]

We have had some posters here argue very well that depression is not the result of a biochemical imbalance. Remember, it is not actually the case that it either A) is the result of a biochemical imbalance or B) is not. There is also C) a diagnosis of depression may reflect the influence of any of a number of different underlying physiological conditions.

It's either psychological (e.g "My girlfriend left", "I lost my job..", "I saw my dad having sex with Margaret Thatcher when I was a kid.."), psycho-physiological ("..when I'm on the highway I think a roadside bomb is going to go off and I freak out, I also am very depressed and angry for no apparent reason.") or chemical ("I'm usually a very upbeat person, in fact I won the lottery yesterday, and for some inexplicable reason, Natalie Portman is all over me, but suddenly everything seems meaningless, pointless, hopeless and futile..").

Even if there is no *one* biochemical imbalance to explain the symptoms of depression (and as one who suffered from extreme hypothyroidism, I assure you there is not *one* physiological syndrome causing these symptoms), that does not mean that one should not seek medical attention for those symptoms. There are, generally three: Dopamine, Serotonin, Opioid. A negative imbalance of any can easily produce disabling anhedonia/dysthymia or suicidal thoughts. Anyone who is having intrusive, suicidal thoughts without any justification should get evaluated, as what they are suffering from is most likely chemical depression. Someone who just came back from Iraq after a two year tour, is a different story.

[SirPhilip]

We meet again dancer. This time though, you have a small part of the brain to hop around if bullets strike near your feet, so keep them on solid ground I ask..

What evidence do you have that psychotropics other than anxiolytics are addictive? A person should not be perscribed an AD unless they are depressed, but they are no more addictive than insulin is to a diabetic. Wikipedia is your friend. I'm not. What evidence do you have that SSRIs would not, if used beyond recommended dosages or even at recommended dosages, have significant rebound? There is plenty of controversy surrounding that, completely legitimate.

Now a depressed person should learn healthy skills just as a diabetic should control their diet. Unless they are depressed due to an imbalance; in which case they have no control over their mood, and their thought and judgement are distorted as a result.

But ADs are not addictive. You have stated it before, that they are addictive, now back your assertion with evidence. I reffered to psychological dependency obviously, with a physical rebound (withdrawal period). Although flatly saying "AD's are not addictive" is making me depressed about what to expect below.

Where is your data and research? Demonstrate that ADs are addictive and that they meet the criteria as set forth in the DSMIV-R for substance dependance, show me all relevant studies and data. The mere assertion that diabetes requires higher doses of insulin does not constitute addiction.Still sore from the bruises suffered during your evasions in that other thread, aren't you. I concede, no really, SSRIs couldn't possibly be addictive...

Do you know the difference between exogenous and endogenous depression? No actually I don't. Cool words though, enlighten me. You failed to do any of that in the other thread.


If it is depression it doesn't matter. If there is the prescription of any AD or psychotropic medication there should be weekly monitoring of symtoms and side effects (until they adjust), patients should be informed of the side effects and warned to call thier doctor if they occur. Like any drug that influences or directly regulates mood, SSRIs must have a degree of physical rebound if stopped. If the person is chemically depressed, withdrawal is simply delt with in a controlled way, similar to patients taking opioid drugs. If a person is 'suicidally depressed' due to an event, not because they have a physical imbalance and taking them at much higher dosages and if they stop and a rebound occurs, they will likely go through severe withdrawal and associate this with the situation.

..edited to remove extraneous sarcasm and pomposity. Ah, "extraneous". What's this definition.

"..introduced or coming from without; not belonging or proper to a thing; external; foreign: extraneous substances in our water."

Like extraneous volumes of text? The duller your points become, remember, the sharper the barbs around my statements tighten..

[Dancing David]

We meet again dancer. This time though, you have a small part of the brain to hop around if bullets strike near your feet, so keep them on solid ground I ask..

Still no substance, only the pithy retort.

You haven't answered the questions in the other thread.

Care to have a public dispute about sleep, moderated by any number of psychologists on this board? Still think you can slep while you are awake?


Wikipedia is your friend. I'm not. What evidence do you have that SSRIs would not, if used beyond recommended dosages or even at recommended dosages, have significant rebound? There is plenty of controversy surrounding that, completely legitimate.

Rebound is not the definition of addiction.


Unless they are depressed due to an imbalance; in which case they have no control over their mood, and their thought and judgement are distorted as a result.

Ah yet the benefits of life style changes are still thier although potentialy less effective.


I reffered to psychological dependency obviously, with a physical rebound (withdrawal period). Although flatly saying "AD's are not addictive" is making me depressed about what to expect below.

Care to point to any recent use in research of the the phrase 'psychologicaly dependant', that is not a criteria of addiction.


Still sore from the bruises suffered during your evasions in that other thread, aren't you. I concede, no really, SSRIs couldn't possibly be addictive...

Care to take it up in a new thread? Then your claims won't be hidden in the R&P forums, would you like to do it in this forum?

Still want to say that you understand the clinical use of the term sleep?


No actually I don't. Cool words though, enlighten me. You failed to do any of that in the other thread.

It has to do with the possible causes of depression, some people are vulnerable to depression from outside stressors others are vulnerable to depressions when they are not under stress, if someone feels that thier functioning is impacted due to depression it doesn't matter if they have 'situationaly' or not.


Like any drug that influences or directly regulates mood, SSRIs must have a degree of physical rebound if stopped.

that is not a criteria solely for dependance.

If the person is chemically depressed, withdrawal is simply delt with in a controlled way, similar to patients taking opioid drugs. If a person is 'suicidally depressed' due to an event, not because they have a physical imbalance and taking them at much higher dosages and if they stop and a rebound occurs, they will likely go through severe withdrawal and associate this with the situation.

If they aren't depressed then they are likely to become agitated and anxious, although many people are subject to that anyhow, it is a complication of treatement with the SSRIs and the ones that are like Cymbalta as well.

That does not mean they are addictive.


Ah, "extraneous". What's this definition.

"..introduced or coming from without; not belonging or proper to a thing; external; foreign: extraneous substances in our water."

Like extraneous volumes of text? The duller your points become, remember, the sharper the barbs around my statements tighten..


And would you care to bring that discussion to this forum?

The more extreme your rhetoric the less substance you have. Care to discuss your usgae of the word sleep in the Science forum?

[Dancing David]

There are, generally three: Dopamine, Serotonin, Opioid. A negative imbalance of any can easily produce disabling anhedonia/dysthymia or suicidal thoughts. Anyone who is having intrusive, suicidal thoughts without any justification should get evaluated, as what they are suffering from is most likely chemical depression. Someone who just came back from Iraq after a two year tour, is a different story.

Oh great now you are posting dangerous twaddle, I hope you avoid the crisis intervention field. Your mindless crap in the R&P Forum is less harmfull but this is dangerous. I don't think you have posted your credentials as a crisis intervention counselor have you?

Are you really saying that a person who has "intrusive suicidal thoughts" with "justification" should not seek evaluation?

Are you sure that is what you are saying?

That is really dangerous, are really sure that is what you mean to say?

[SirPhilip]

Oh great now you are posting dangerous twaddle, I hope you avoid the crisis intervention field. Your mindless crap in the R&P Forum is less harmfull but this is dangerous. I don't think you have posted your credentials as a crisis intervention counselor have you?

Argument from authority, this soon? You decided to smack heads with me once again, and this isn't ambiguous, so counterpoints shouldn't be something I have to beg for if I'm off on something, now should it..

Are you really saying that a person who has "intrusive suicidal thoughts" with "justification" should not seek evaluation? Suicidal thoughts can arise due to a fixed, low-set mood as a result of dysthymia/anhedonia, or situations. I assume you know what this is like, otherwise there is no point in a decent exchange with you, as you can't relate, and further will make another mess for me to clean up trying to invalidate valid things I explain in a lovingly verbally abusive way.

Are you sure that is what you are saying? I'm saying that common situational depression ("Nothing is going the way it should.."), not to be confused with psycho-physiological depression, such as PTSD, requires therapy, not drug dependency, unless diagnosed with chemical depression.

That is really dangerous, are really sure that is what you mean to say? It is dangerous to encourage anyone who is not suffering from chemical depression, especially if you are in a position of authority, into a dependency on prescription drugs - not therapy or a combination of the two with a primary emphasis on therapy. You could argue this is standard procedure, but I see too many people on anti-depressants for the wrong reasons; what really bothers me isn't what they are prescribed, but someone made them think something was to be gained, rather than a price to pay by shoving things under the rug. These same people eventually discover another class of natural anti-depressants that inspired Huxley's Brave New World: the opioid kingdom, then discover the law of diminishing returns the hard way, and become heroes or statistics.

[William Rea]

Tends? :g1:

Yes, tends.

I can point you towards sources that will confirm that men are less likely to seek treatment for depression if you wish?

[William Rea]

It is dangerous to encourage anyone who is not suffering from chemical depression, especially if you are in a position of authority, into a dependency on prescription drugs - not therapy or a combination of the two with a primary emphasis on therapy. You could argue this is standard procedure, but I see too many people on anti-depressants for the wrong reasons; what really bothers me isn't what they are prescribed, but someone made them think something was to be gained, rather than a price to pay by shoving things under the rug. These same people eventually discover another class of natural anti-depressants that inspired Huxley's Brave New World: the opioid kingdom, then discover the law of diminishing returns the hard way, and become heroes or statistics.

I don't think anyone has implied that unecessary prescriptions are a good thing? Where are you arguing from on this?

In many cases even chemically imbalanced depressives have learned coping strategies that are unhealthy. It would require medication to even get them in a position to unlearn those strategies and adopt more constructive patterns of behaviour.

Medication without therapy simply is not acceptable in any scenario.

[SirPhilip]

I don't think anyone has implied that unecessary prescriptions are a good thing? Dancing David will, watch.

Where are you arguing from on this?The obvious, I know - it's probably going to be reiterated over-and-over again soon, too.

Medication without therapy simply is not acceptable in any scenario. Completely agree. Although people often sort themselves out. I mostly blame pharmaceutical companies' marketing.

[nails3jesus0]

Its so weird. Having an imbalance of chemicals in the brain can cause all sorts of behaviors that people consider legit (insomnia, for instance) but depression is somehow different when its caused by imbalance of chemicals?

[athon]

Its so weird. Having an imbalance of chemicals in the brain can cause all sorts of behaviors that people consider legit (insomnia, for instance) but depression is somehow different when its caused by imbalance of chemicals?

Because everybody feels down from time to time, so it's difficult for many to see how clinical depression is different. It's easy to imagine insomnia, easy to imagine hearing voices where you shouldn't...but depression, that's just the blues, right?

As it has been said, pharmaceutical treatments without behavioural changes are never a good idea, for a number of reasons. But sometimes the brain can benefit from a bit of a kick, in order to make the behavioural changes possible. Deciding when and what to prescribe is difficult and obviously is open to debate.

I'd be shocked and dismayed if anybody suggested that unnecessary medication should be prescibed, but I seriously doubt anybody would argue that, by nature of the word 'unnecessary'. Of course, deciding what is necessary and not depends on the situation.

This field is always a touchy one with people, with emotions running high on both sides. Still, we can endeavour to keep a rational and evidence-based mind about it, surely.

Athon

[Solus]

Because everybody feels down from time to time, so it's difficult for many to see how clinical depression is different. It's easy to imagine insomnia, easy to imagine hearing voices where you shouldn't...but depression, that's just the blues, right?

As it has been said, pharmaceutical treatments without behavioural changes are never a good idea, for a number of reasons. But sometimes the brain can benefit from a bit of a kick, in order to make the behavioural changes possible. Deciding when and what to prescribe is difficult and obviously is open to debate.

I'd be shocked and dismayed if anybody suggested that unnecessary medication should be prescibed, but I seriously doubt anybody would argue that, by nature of the word 'unnecessary'. Of course, deciding what is necessary and not depends on the situation.

This field is always a touchy one with people, with emotions running high on both sides. Still, we can endeavour to keep a rational and evidence-based mind about it, surely.

Athon

It's hard for me to a rational debate because the issue is too personal too me. certain attitudes here remind of me a very ignorant person in my life who I used to call "dad".

I feel I know so much more about this then most except psychological doctors and other suffers. To dismiss my word makes my blood boil. Those who have no knowledge about a such a serious topic should not discuss it. I at least would expect some respect but instead I get called an idiot.

The thing is people can hide behind a computer screen and act like compete
bastards. To my own face I would not get those kind responses.

This my new response to any ignorant person who wants to discuss mental illness based off material he watched on television. :dl: I think it will serve me better.

[Solus]

unnecessary[/u] medication should be prescibed, but I seriously doubt anybody would argue that, by nature of the word 'unnecessary'. Of course, deciding what is necessary and not depends on the situation.Athon

I won't link to that forum here but you should see the medication section. :covereyes half the posts are about how xanax and other addictive drugs are a wonderful cure for the problem. That doesn't bother though because it's like talking to a wall, they are already doomed. Medication is a last resort to the problem.

The best post ever was on in that section was on using opium to deal with anxiety issues... I did report that one and it was removed. That medication section really needs to be moderated properly or just closed because it gives tons of bad advice.

I hate having to take medication but I deal with it. In my case it's a serve issue though. By no means is the answer to every problem medication. Nothing is wrong with therapy though provided the therapist is researched and properly qualified.

[DoubtingStephen]

I'm struck by a tremendous sense of irony reading this thread. My first born son was a big lad with red hair, and I called him Big Red all of his life. He suffered from severe depression that dragged on for years until he was finally given a powerful psychoactive medication.

Within a month he was like a new man, happy, calm, and focused. I was delighted to see his situation so greatly relieved. Everyone who knew him saw the change.

Then he came to the conclusion that the medication had cured his depression, and he stopped taking it. He was dead of suicide within a few weeks.

Depression can be a life threatening illness and people suffering from depression should certainly be encouraged to seek professional medical care. And the point I want to stress is that the psychoactive drugs available today must be taken as directed and not treated lightly. It's a serious business messing with a person's brain, and pharmaceutical science has made tremendous strides in recent years, but it's a very dangerous situation and should never be brushed off lightly.

Medical professionals use standardized methods for diagnosing depression, or at least those standards are available.

[Dancing David]

Argument from authority, this soon? You decided to smack heads with me once again, and this isn't ambiguous, so counterpoints shouldn't be something I have to beg for if I'm off on something, now should it..

Not an argument from authority at all, that is your self reflection again. But you made a statement that "Anyone who is having intrusive, suicidal thoughts without any justification should get evaluated, as what they are suffering from is most likely chemical depression. ". And i would state that the safe course without a comprehensive history, is that some one who is having intrusive thoughts of suicide should most likely seek evaluation. Not the thought of "I wish i was dead" is not what i would call suicidal ideation. The thought"I should kill myself" is suicidal ideation. Someone who has intrusive thoughts of suicide should seek help. Unless it is a persistant low threat pattern, in which case CBT would be recommended.


Suicidal thoughts can arise due to a fixed, low-set mood as a result of dysthymia/anhedonia, or situations.

And again are they suicidal ideation "I should kill myself." or are they vauge death wishes and thoughts like "I wish i wasn't here" ? There are different levels of risk for the two. And even people with long term dysthymia can reach a point where they are actively considering ending thier life. That is a situation with appreciable risk, if they form a plan it goes to high risk. Now there is the whole messy "peri-suicidal' behavior but we might want to avoid the boderline stuff for now.

I assume you know what this is like, otherwise there is no point in a decent exchange with you, as you can't relate, and further will make another mess for me to clean up trying to invalidate valid things I explain in a lovingly verbally abusive way.

I notice you don't want to debate your waking 'sleep claim' here in the Science forum, if you do i shall galdly debate. You are good at the rhetoric and arm waving and have a fine point with the dagger. If there is substance behind the front is another matter. More words mean less.

I have had times of what I thought was dysthymia but it was actualy not. I thought that I was in the category of "depressed more days than not" but when i got into the evaluation the assesor picked uyp that the days i thought were good days were not good days, they were just 'not as depressed days' and therefore they were not dysthymie, because there was a pervasive depression.



I'm saying that common situational depression ("Nothing is going the way it should.."), not to be confused with psycho-physiological depression, such as PTSD, requires therapy, not drug dependency, unless diagnosed with chemical depression.


I am not sure that is they way I would frame the distinction, depression is depression, even if it is situational. When i did assesment (always under an MSWs or LCLPC or LPHA supervision) I tried to help the person assess thier functional impaitment. Were they having physical symptoms, were they having impaired functioning in the realms of self care, employment , education and/or education? Then there are the five criteria that have to be met for depression (could be different) and I personaly went with the time frame (more than a month) and if they had a past history of depression.

If they began to meet the physical symptoms and they were more than transient, and if they had major impairment in at least one area of functioning or middling impairment in two then I would lean towards major depression. Then the key is when you ask them "Do you think you are depressed." If they all start to line up with each other than depression, otherwise an adjustment disorder.


It is dangerous to encourage anyone who is not suffering from chemical depression, especially if you are in a position of authority, into a dependency on prescription drugs - not therapy or a combination of the two with a primary emphasis on therapy.

My personal preference was to always suggest the therapy or counseling, if they had issues that could be addressed in that arena. But many, many people did not want that, they chose to see the doctor only, despite any careful advice i might give them.

And again you are using the dependancy word again. That is a source of contention, what evidence do you have for dependancy upon ADs.

You could argue this is standard procedure, but I see too many people on anti-depressants for the wrong reasons; what really bothers me isn't what they are prescribed, but someone made them think something was to be gained, rather than a price to pay by shoving things under the rug.

Now that is a thorny personal issue, if someone wants to deal up thier issues that is up to them. Certainly they should make life changes that will decrease thier stress. And CBT will benefit most people with issues. But i can't go for any psychodynamic mumbo jumbo. If they don't want to deal with the issues that generate the stress, then all you can do is give them the options and the recomendation for therapy or counseling.

These same people eventually discover another class of natural anti-depressants that inspired Huxley's Brave New World: the opioid kingdom, then discover the law of diminishing returns the hard way, and become heroes or statistics.


Ah, a gateway theory, i have never heard that one, that ADs lead to opiate addictions, I suppose it could happen. But it is not a common occurance, I sure met a lot of people who were already prescribed pain killers.

And for the quick shop method, it is more likely a GP than an mental health professional.

[Dancing David]

Dancing David will, watch.


Your psychic powers are impessive, but inaccurate, perhaps you should try to read minds. My recird is well established in mant threads on this topic. When I did assesments i would usualy only recommend the refferal to the doctor if they were having physical symptoms or had major imapirment in functionsing. Otherwise if they insisted they wanted to see the doctor then i would recommend it, especialy if I was told to do so in the 'eyeball' assesment review.


The obvious, I know - it's probably going to be reiterated over-and-over again soon, too.

Completely agree. Although people often sort themselves out. I mostly blame pharmaceutical companies' marketing.

I blame alcohol and substance abuse, especialy caffine. People often think they should be able to get by on low levels of sleep and high levels of stress. they often don't want to examine the causes of thier stress. They run like mad all day, they run all day at hiome, they drink like fish and smoke like chimney and persue spiteful love objects, they spend money they don't have and try to save thier more worthless relatives. Then they wonder why they get depressed.

Marketing in general is a problem it motivates people to do all sorts of unhealthy stuff.

[Dancing David]

I won't link to that forum here but you should see the medication section. :covereyes half the posts are about how xanax and other addictive drugs are a wonderful cure for the problem.

Ah the joys of addicted thinking, xanax and ativan have high sedation profiles that make them drugs of choice, and then xanax has a high withdrawl profile, and is considered to be addictive. Always can tell a substance problem when people say "I know what i need and it is Xanax."

That doesn't bother though because it's like talking to a wall, they are already doomed. Medication is a last resort to the problem.

Nothing like using gasoline to put out a fire.

The best post ever was on in that section was on using opium to deal with anxiety issues...

Ah, those damn opiates, they even clean the windows and balance the check book. Anxiety and opiates, add a bottle of gin and there goes your breathing.

I did report that one and it was removed. That medication section really needs to be moderated properly or just closed because it gives tons of bad advice.

I hate having to take medication but I deal with it. In my case it's a serve issue though. By no means is the answer to every problem medication. Nothing is wrong with therapy though provided the therapist is researched and properly qualified.


Yeah for sceptics, ask the questions! Question thier methods and make sure they set observable goals. No integration of disparate pieces... or resolving trauma. Heal the wounds, learn the skills. Or as we used to say prop em up, patch em up, teach em to dodge and shove em out the door.

[SirPhilip]

Your psychic powers are impessive, but inaccurate, perhaps you should try to read minds.

My recird is well established in mant threads on this topic. When I did assesments i would usualy only recommend the refferal to the doctor if they were having physical symptoms or had major imapirment in functionsing. Otherwise if they insisted they wanted to see the doctor then i would recommend it, especialy if I was told to do so in the 'eyeball' assesment review. Cool. You do by experience on the other hand, understand it? I ask this because some inquired whether depression as a result of rebound, genetic chemical imbalance, substance use was different from situational depression. I'd say it falls into three general types:

Chemical depression as characterized when a physical imbalance constrains someone's mood and thoughts into a negative mindset, regardless of the situation.

Situational depression as characterized when a hopeless event causes someone's mood and thoughts to temporarily be constrained into a negative mindset on a specific subject (such as loss of a loved one, job, being victimized).

Psychophysical 'Depression' as characterized as a rarer, more tragic form where events and subsequent recall of them trigger physiological changes as well as behavior, as if the events re-occur. The depression, I would assume, being caused by a loss of self control.

I blame alcohol and substance abuse, especialy caffine. People often think they should be able to get by on low levels of sleep and high levels of stress. they often don't want to examine the causes of thier stress. They run like mad all day, they run all day at hiome, they drink like fish and smoke like chimney and persue spiteful love objects, they spend money they don't have and try to save thier more worthless relatives. Then they wonder why they get depressed.No disagreement there. I had a spectacular caffeine regime throughout high school. I would drink at least a gallon to two gallons of green tea every two days, and suffered the consequences in cognitive performance and mood swings.

[Dancing David]

I agree with th overuse of caffine, the issue I have is that people overextend themselves (sometimes they dont have choice), they work longer gours, they work hard at home, they overextend themselves on the weekend, all through the miracle of caffine. When someone tries to sleep after consuming caffine all day they are not likley to get quality sleep, if you sleep less than your body requires it wears you out, which adds to the stress. Then you factor in the use of alcohol, the desire for people to watch TV until one in the morning and you have people trying to function on low levels of sleep.

Stress and lack of sleep, a recipe for disaster.

[Dancing David]

Cool. You do by experience on the other hand, understand it? I ask this because some inquired whether depression as a result of rebound, genetic chemical imbalance, substance use was different from situational depression. I'd say it falls into three general types:


What rebound is that?

Chemical depression as characterized when a physical imbalance constrains someone's mood and thoughts into a negative mindset, regardless of the situation.

Situational depression as characterized when a hopeless event causes someone's mood and thoughts to temporarily be constrained into a negative mindset on a specific subject (such as loss of a loved one, job, being victimized).

The risk of suicide has nothing to do with the lenth of time of the depressed mood.


Psychophysical 'Depression' as characterized as a rarer, more tragic form where events and subsequent recall of them trigger physiological changes as well as behavior, as if the events re-occur. The depression, I would assume, being caused by a loss of self control.




I would say that I can't agree to your categories but I can understand them, I take a functional behavior approach. It does not matter what the situation is, what matters is the functional impairment.

My main concern is this, the risk of suicde is not based upon any of that, it is based upon the following:

1.Thoughts of deliberately ending ones life.
2. Plans of ending ones life.
3. Intent of ending ones life.
4.Person's perception that means to be used is lethal.
5.Past history of suicide attempts.
6. The triad of impairment, judgement and impulse control.

Then there are the factors associated with higher risk of suicide which are numerous: Age, chronic pain, gender, substance abuse, access to lethal means, sociopathy, chronic illness and lack of supports. (There are more as well).

So anyone having intrusive thoughts of suicide , "I should kill myself", should seek help and contact regardless of the situation. This includes calling the crisis line. People who have histories of chronic thoughts of harming themselves should definitly seek help.

Anyone who has intrusive thoughts of ending thier life should seek evaluation, the crisis line is great. The risk is not based upon the situational causes of the stress. The risk is based upon the precense of the suicidal ideation, especialy when it involves a plan.

Even if the person is attention seeking, they should seek professional assistance (friends should tell them this) because the risk is there, people kill themselves when they don't mean to.

[aggle-rithm]

Situational depression [I]as characterized when a hopeless event causes someone's mood and thoughts to temporarily be constrained into a negative mindset on a specific subject (such as loss of a loved one, job, being victimized).


The problem a lot of people have, and the reason that they don't seek treatment, is that depression can ALWAYS be attributed to some environmental stimulus. People are good at drawing connections like this, prompted by the unshakeable belief that any mental state is necessarily the consequence of an external experience. If I'm depressed it must be because the bank account is low, or because little Timmy isn't doing well in school, or any other ordinary problem that most people have no problem dealing with.

When I was a teenager I used to get severe depressive episodes every other year, during the summer. These episodes would be jump-started by something I read or saw on television. In a sense, they could be called situational depression, because there was a recognizable "cause", but the real problem was an underlying imbalance that allowed the depression to take hold with only the slightest provocation.

[nails3jesus0]

I agree with th overuse of caffine, the issue I have is that people overextend themselves (sometimes they dont have choice), they work longer gours, they work hard at home, they overextend themselves on the weekend, all through the miracle of caffine. When someone tries to sleep after consuming caffine all day they are not likley to get quality sleep, if you sleep less than your body requires it wears you out, which adds to the stress. Then you factor in the use of alcohol, the desire for people to watch TV until one in the morning and you have people trying to function on low levels of sleep.

Stress and lack of sleep, a recipe for disaster.


oh yeah, im sure doctors never suggest patients dont consume caffiene when they have sleeping problems :rolleyes: lol

[Dancing David]

oh yeah, im sure doctors never suggest patients dont consume caffiene when they have sleeping problems :rolleyes: lol


That was more an observation on the behavior of USers (those who live in the US) more than anything else. Doctors surely do recomend and people ignore. Doctors recomend a whole lot of stuff people ignore.

If you have been to stress management seminar than you know the main cause of stress is overextension of personal resources. I don't blame caffine, I think it's overuse leads to alot of problems (in that it supports people in thier crazy do everything lifestyle), then the pursuit and maintainence of relationships with destructive people, then the assistance to destructive family memebers. Alcohol of course dominates in the substances of abuse, by far the leader of the pack.

[Dancing David]

The problem a lot of people have, and the reason that they don't seek treatment, is that depression can ALWAYS be attributed to some environmental stimulus. People are good at drawing connections like this, prompted by the unshakeable belief that any mental state is necessarily the consequence of an external experience. If I'm depressed it must be because the bank account is low, or because little Timmy isn't doing well in school, or any other ordinary problem that most people have no problem dealing with.

When I was a teenager I used to get severe depressive episodes every other year, during the summer. These episodes would be jump-started by something I read or saw on television. In a sense, they could be called situational depression, because there was a recognizable "cause", but the real problem was an underlying imbalance that allowed the depression to take hold with only the slightest provocation.

Hear here!