"300"= Republican Propaganda?

[parky76]

"freedom isn't free"

"an age of freedom"

"we will stand and fight"

Just some of the quotes from 300. The valiant, brave, and caucasian Spartans fight the evil dark skinned dark eyed Persians.

Even Monica Crowley sees lessons from 300 that can teach us about how to deal with the Iranians.

Its this a bit of propaganda or what?

[chippy]

It also shows you that when a guy brings you a message saying that your country will be destroyed by his army, you can expect an angry bearded guy to kick you into this big black pit.

Come on, I'm a democrat and I loved the movie.

[Redtail]

"freedom isn't free"

"an age of freedom"

"we will stand and fight"

Just some of the quotes from 300. The valiant, brave, and caucasian Spartans fight the evil dark skinned dark eyed Persians.

Even Monica Crowley sees lessons from 300 that can teach us about how to deal with the Iranians.

Its this a bit of propaganda or what?

Well I honestly don't know how old those sayings are.

[Alareth]

Maybe we should look into Frank Miller's NWO connections since it's based off of his graphic novel.

[Redtail]

It also shows you that when a guy brings you a message saying that your country will be destroyed by his army, you can expect an angry bearded guy to kick you into this big black pit.

Come on, I'm a democrat and I loved the movie.

And if there were more persians like "Big X" they would have every gold medal in Olympic basketball.:D

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Maybe we should look into Frank Miller's NWO connections since it's based off of his graphic novel.

How's this? (http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/story?id=1616836&page=1)

Miller called "Holy Terror, Batman!" a "piece of propaganda" where "Batman kicks al Qaeda's a—." He said his graphic novel channeled an era in the comic-book industry when writers and artists used heroes to spread a clear message and generate patriotism.

"Superman punched out Hitler. So did [Marvel Comics'] Captain America," he said. "That's one of the things they're there for. … These are our folk heroes. It just seems silly to chase around the Riddler when you've got al Qaeda out there."

[gumboot]

What is with people thinking every frikken film has to have some nefarious purpose?

300 is an action film designed to entertain people and make lots of money. Okay? There's your propaganda.

What is this American obsession with claiming everything was invented by them? You honestly think you invented Freedom? My God, Ancient Greeks talking about Freedom! Must be propaganda.

-Gumboot

[UserGoogol]

The comic book was written in 1998, also. That said, I do believe that Frank Miller endorses the "kicking ass for justice" ethic as something more than simply a means to justifying a cool action scene. I think he's said as much, and this link (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5784518) sort of verifies that. But 300 is not intended to specifically refer to present conflicts.

Good movie, at any rate. Perhaps a bit overrated in certain circles, but quite fun.

ETA: Ah, I just realized this thread is in the Conspiracy Theories forum. Hmm. That can't be right.

[T.A.M.]

Relative to the setting in which the film takes place, the message is...expected. One could make the argument though, as one could with "Kingdom of Heaven" in the opposite way.

KOH preaches tolerance and that the truth of the crusades is far from what we read in history books. There is a lot of liberal "message" in the movie. Personally i loved KOH. I have not seen 300, but I have heard it is Phenomenal. Now that I have heard this, my assessment will be unfair, as I will be looking for it.

TAM:)

[gumboot]

The comic book was written in 1998, also. That said, I do believe that Frank Miller endorses the "kicking ass for justice" ethic as something more than simply a means to justifying a cool action scene. I think he's said as much, and this link (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5784518) sort of verifies that. But 300 is not intended to specifically refer to present conflicts.


Frank Miller says that when he saw 300 Spartans as a kid the movie redefined what being a hero meant. It's no surprise he eventually made a graphic novel of the event.

The 480BC Battle of Thermopylae is simply one of many examples of a reality that is far greater than any fiction.

-Gumboot

[Unsecured Coins]

i think what it's trying to say is that if the democrats had their way, we'd be in Iraq with nothing but a cape, a spear, a sheild, and wrestling trunks.

[T.A.M.]

Then I think Bill Clinton should be the first to lead us in such a charge...good for a laugh anyway...lol

TAM:)

[ConspiRaider]

What is this American obsession with claiming everything was invented by them? You honestly think you invented Freedom?
Well er, um ... well shucks yes we Yanks really did invent Freedom.

The story of the Dandelion Treatises On Freedom is a story that is well known amongst all good Americans (and even amongst those whose behavior is, shall we say, marginal).

Jackson McWhifferkugel, whose mother was a Hamster (immigrant from Hamland) and whose father smelt of elderberries (savvy stockbroker who traded in elderberry futures) lived alone in a grass hut on the outskirts of Burbank, California. Not much is known about his early life, except that he made his living by signalling where the oxcart traffic tie-ups were on the fledgling Southern California freeway system. He'd shinny up palm trees, use mirrors, bang coconuts together, whatever it took to get the word out to beleaguered commuters as to where the cart snarls were.

One day while mowing his roof, he stopped to pull up some pesky dandelions that were growing near the chimney. Apparently he pulled too hard, or the dandelion root system was more extensive than he realized. No one knows for sure. In his exertions, he managed to weaken his roof and fall right through, hitting his head on the tequila still that was in his living room below. Jackson was out cold for two days.

When he came to, he saw the still, saw the dandelions, and figured a way to distill the dandelions into a kind of wine. Jackson had never been too fond of tequila anyway and the dandelion wine made him feel sophisticated, like a connoiseur. Armed with his new outlook and stature, he began to write. About freeing the people from their oxcarts. Freeing them from the drudgery (and unexpected danger) of roof-mowing. He wrote for three straight years and the rest, as they say, is history. Americans now know a grand total of 3 things:

1. The length of Britney's hair
2. The genome sequence of Anna Nicole's DNA
3. The Dandelion Treatises On Freedom, by Jackson McWhifferkugel

[T.A.M.]

Britney has hair? Who knew?

TAM:D

[SimonD]

"freedom isn't free"

"an age of freedom"

"we will stand and fight"

Just some of the quotes from 300. The valiant, brave, and caucasian Spartans fight the evil dark skinned dark eyed Persians.

Even Monica Crowley sees lessons from 300 that can teach us about how to deal with the Iranians.

Its this a bit of propaganda or what?

I think it is great story for anytime - not just now.

What would you do if your country was threated by a 'horde' - stand and fight? or let them invade?

Brilliant movie, the comic is better.

[gumboot]

I think it is great story for anytime - not just now.

What would you do if your country was threated by a 'horde' - stand and fight? or let them invade?

Brilliant movie, the comic is better.



Have you read Gates of Fire? I think it's a far superior telling of the story, personally.

-Gumboot

[slingblade]

What would you do if your country was threated by a 'horde' - stand and fight? or let them invade?


I would get out my lvl 62 paladin and go kick some Horde tuckus!

[clarsct]

OP:

Oh for F:rolleyes: k's sake.

Don't you have a life or something to go do?

[jhunter1163]

I've always had a lot of admiration for the Spartans. In fact, my sig is a (slightly altered) quote from a Spartan general.

This movie didn't do anything to change that.

[Pardalis]

I liked the movie for it's visual style, but I do think the story is (as another poster pointed out in the thread on the "movies and entertainment" subforum) rather fascist in its simplistic portrayal of good vs evil.

[gumboot]

I've always had a lot of admiration for the Spartans. In fact, my sig is a (slightly altered) quote from a Spartan general.


Wasn't it just a general Spartan maxim? Like the one "A man comes home with his shield, or on it" (which was also a Spartan maxim).

-Gumboot

ETA. My sig also has a Spartan quote :) Namely the epitaph for the Spartans at Thermopylae.

[gumboot]

I liked the movie for it's visual style, but I do think the story is (as another poster pointed out in the thread on the "movies and entertainment" subforum) rather fascist in its simplistic portrayal of good vs evil.



Is it "good versus evil" or "free versus not free"?

-Gumboot

[Pardalis]

I meant that in the movie, the good guys are uniformly beautiful, young and fit, and the evil ones are diverse, perverse and in alot of cases difformed.

The idea of freedom is not well established in my opinion inthe movie, it's just a word they thow out there without real meaning outside that the bad guys are supposedly really "bad".

[Carnivore]

nevermind

[gumboot]

I meant that in the movie, the good guys are uniformly beautiful, young and fit, and the evil ones are diverse, perverse and in alot of cases difformed.

The idea of freedom is not well established in my opinion inthe movie, it's just a word they thow out there without real meaning outside that the bad guys are supposedly really "bad".



Makes sense. This is what I didn't really like about the comic, compared to Pressfield's book. Pressfield's book really is about freedom. The real theme of the story is self-freedom. Freedom from fear, freedom of mind. Etc.

The comic just seemed to be "Wow, look how unbelievably hard these Spartans are".

Have to wait several more weeks until it comes out here... :mad:

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

I meant that in the movie, the good guys are uniformly beautiful, young and fit, and the evil ones are diverse, perverse and in alot of cases difformed.



For what it's worth the Spartiates were uniformly beautiful, young and fit, and the Persians were diverse and (from the Spartan POV at least) peverse. I think the mutations and what have you were going a bit far... ;)

-Gumboot

[Horatius]

Makes sense. This is what I didn't really like about the comic, compared to Pressfield's book. Pressfield's book really is about freedom. The real theme of the story is self-freedom. Freedom from fear, freedom of mind. Etc.




This was my impression. I actually think we could make a case for 300 being JREF propaganda, because there are several points in the film where the heroes express a desire for the triumph of reason over passion or mysticism.

[Hutch]

I meant that in the movie, the good guys are uniformly beautiful, young and fit, and the evil ones are diverse, perverse and in a lot of cases difformed.

Well, the story of Spartans throwing newborn babes off the cliff if they were not perfect may be an exageration, but the training, ethos, and simple peer pressure (if you couldn't perform, you were ostracized and perhaps forced to leave Sparta) could have led to a more uniform and 'pure-bred' society than most. (derail)At the risk of incuring Godwin's wrath, I always wondered why Hitler and the Nazis didn't harp more on the Spartans and include them in the Aryan pantheon--or maybe they did /derail)


The idea of freedom is not well established in my opinion inthe movie, it's just a word they throw out there without real meaning outside that the bad guys are supposedly really "bad".

True that. and recall that the Spartans were actually the minority in their territory, their servants/slaves (helots) outnumbered them so part of the need for being a strong military force was self-preservation...and slavery does tend to blunt those "freedom" speeches.

[Totovader]

I don't understand how this claim can have any weight considering the part where...


he goes AGAINST the mystics. Does that have ANY parallel to our current situation? If anything the Republican Party is a bunch of mystics themselves...

[Totovader]

This was my impression. I actually think we could make a case for 300 being JREF propaganda, because there are several points in the film where the heroes express a desire for the triumph of reason over passion or mysticism.

Except for the part where it becomes mysticism of the body. Apparently it's noble to send yourself to your death knowingly...

I really can't understand how trading one mysticism for another can be pro-reason.

Don't get me wrong- great flick.

[gumboot]

Well, the story of Spartans throwing newborn babes off the cliff if they were not perfect may be an exageration,



They used to abandon them on the mountain if they were unwanted or considered weak or sickly. On rare occasions they survived the night, in which case they were accepted into the community.

(As far as I know this was only done to the sons of the Spartiates)

-Gumboot

[Horatius]

Except for the part where it becomes mysticism of the body. Apparently it's noble to send yourself to your death knowingly...

I really can't understand how trading one mysticism for another can be pro-reason.

Don't get me wrong- great flick.




Well, then we get into the question of, is there a biological/evolutionary cause of altruism? If sacrificing yourself brings some (greater) benefit to your family, tribe, nation or species, then it's not really mystic, is it? If these 300 had not done what they did, and inspired the rest of the Greeks to join battle, their nation would have been reduced to slavery, or worse. So on a cost/benefit analysis, I think it comes out on the positive side.

[coalesce]

Then I think Bill Clinton should be the first to lead us in such a charge...good for a laugh anyway...lol

TAM:)

The only way he would lead the charge is if were into a battalion of hot foreigner chick fighters.

Michael

[Totovader]

Well, then we get into the question of, is there a biological/evolutionary cause of altruism? If sacrificing yourself brings some (greater) benefit to your family, tribe, nation or species, then it's not really mystic, is it? If these 300 had not done what they did, and inspired the rest of the Greeks to join battle, their nation would have been reduced to slavery, or worse. So on a cost/benefit analysis, I think it comes out on the positive side.

Yes, we do get into that question.

Thank god this ain't the right forum.

[The Demon's Head]

What is with people thinking every frikken film has to have some nefarious purpose?

300 infuritated some in Iran. That some in Iran think their is a nefarious purpose behind the film.

[gumboot]

300 infuritated some in Iran. That some in Iran think their is a nefarious purpose behind the film.


Why does that not surprise me? Iran has a lot in common with Killtown.

-Gumboot

[The Demon's Head]

Why does that not surprise me? Iran has a lot in common with Killtown.

-Gumboot

It didn't suprise me either.

[jaydeehess]

The only way he would lead the charge is if were into a battalion of hot foreigner chick fighters.


Then there is GWB who will stand behind the men and women he sends into battle.

Waaaay behind them and only if Cheney sill stand in front of him.

_______________________________________________

Come on people, the movie is a comic book rendition of the historic battle so of course its full of brave, momentus, speech. Makes for great movie scenes and follows in the trend of making movies based on comic books that has been the reage for a while now. I will watch and enjoy the movie but if I want history I'll watch the History channel, Discovery Civilisation , A&E, or visit the local library and read about it.

Yes, if the Spartans hadn't shown the rest of the Greeks that the Persians could be fought the world would have been a different place but Sparta was hardly the symbol of freedom as we know and use the word.

[gumboot]

Then there is GWB who will stand behind the men and women he sends into battle.

Waaaay behind them and only if Cheney sill stand in front of him.


The Romans used to have their military commanders keep out of the battle, far from harm's way too. There's a reason the Roman Legions destroyed the descendants of Alexander's mighty army.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Yes, if the Spartans hadn't shown the rest of the Greeks that the Persians could be fought the world would have been a different place but Sparta was hardly the symbol of freedom as we know and use the word.


I think the point is, had the Persians not been beaten (and it was 80,000 Spartans again at Platea that ultimately defeated the Persians) democratic Athens never would have emerged. The great philosophers who wrote about the values and ideals of freedom never would have recorded their ideas.

Most importantly, the concept of "freedom" and being a "free man" comes from the Greeks - including the Spartans. It wasn't universal freedom, it wasn't liberal democracy, but the idea, the spark, than a man should be free... that came from them. I have no doubt, had Xerxes invasion succeeded, the Greek Civilisation would have been torn down and wiped off the face of the earth. Had that happened, the Roman Republic could not have built upon those ideals and created some of the most basic foundation elements of western civilisation.

-Gumboot

[Dr Adequate]

I have no doubt, had Xerxes invasion succeeded, the Greek Civilisation would have been torn down and wiped off the face of the earth. The Persians didn't do this to any other civilization. On the contrary (see the books of Ezra and Nehemiah). They are among the nicer imperialists in history.

And the Spartans, let's face it, set a standard for World's Nastiest Civilization which can only have been equalled by the Aztecs.

[gumboot]

And the Spartans, let's face it, set a standard for World's Nastiest Civilization which can only have been equalled by the Aztecs.


Did they? I disagree. What did they do that was so nasty?

-Gumboot

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by jaydeehess
Then there is GWB who will stand behind the men and women he sends into battle.

Waaaay behind them and only if Cheney will stand in front of him.


-GumbootThe Romans used to have their military commanders keep out of the battle, far from harm's way too. There's a reason the Roman Legions destroyed the descendants of Alexander's mighty army.

-Gumboot


The comparison was to Clinton. Clinton , being President, also has the right to then be out of the battle, far from harm's way.
Both men avoided service. Some might argue that GWB at least joined a military organization but the topic was battle.

[gumboot]

-Gumboot


The comparison was to Clinton. Clinton , being President, also has the right to then be out of the battle, far from harm's way.
Both men avoided service. Some might argue that GWB at least joined a military organization but the topic was battle.


Oh... you mean previous military service...

I thought you were talking about how Bush isn't over in Iraq fighting, as President...:boxedin:

-Gumboot

[jaydeehess]

I think the point is, had the Persians not been beaten (and it was 80,000 Spartans again at Platea that ultimately defeated the Persians) democratic Athens never would have emerged. The great philosophers who wrote about the values and ideals of freedom never would have recorded their ideas.

Most importantly, the concept of "freedom" and being a "free man" comes from the Greeks - including the Spartans. It wasn't universal freedom, it wasn't liberal democracy, but the idea, the spark, than a man should be free... that came from them. I have no doubt, had Xerxes invasion succeeded, the Greek Civilisation would have been torn down and wiped off the face of the earth. Had that happened, the Roman Republic could not have built upon those ideals and created some of the most basic foundation elements of western civilisation.

-Gumboot

"Freedom as we know it"

My recollection was that the other Greek cities were greatly bolstered by the Spartan push against such superior numbers and that this gave rise to better morale among the forces of the larger Greek states.

[gumboot]

"Freedom as we know it"

My recollection was that the other Greek cities were greatly bolstered by the Spartan push against such superior numbers and that this gave rise to better morale among the forces of the larger Greek states.


Thermopylae certainly had a calming effect on the Greek States - prior to Thermopylae the entire civilisation was in disarray with people fleeing to the Italian colonies and generally abandoning ship.

I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that without Thermopylae many more Greek States would have surrendered to the Persians. However, it was still the Spartan hoplites that bore the brunt of the fighting at Plataea. Which is, of course, to be expected. Sparta and Athens were the two largest most powerful states at the time, and Athens had invested enormous efforts into its navy - after the Delphic Oracle's declaration that victory lay with "a wall of wood" was interpreted that victory lay in having ships. Sparta had the most powerful land forces in Greece, easily.

Incidently, it was this same navy that sparked Democracy in Athens. The oarsmen on the Athenian ships, having saved their city, sought a much greater involvement in the day-to-day running of Athens.

-Gumboot

[SimonD]

I would get out my lvl 62 paladin and go kick some Horde tuckus!

WoW - that's a lot of time spent on the internet

[Redtail]

WoW - that's a lot of time spent on the internet

Or in the woods of New England.

[Donal]

I've got this image in my head of some kid in a robe and a plastic toy yelling "MYSTIC AXE! TWO DAMAGE! TO DAMAGE!" while running at an advancing army.

[jaydeehess]

Oh... you mean previous military service...

I thought you were talking about how Bush isn't over in Iraq fighting, as President...:boxedin:

-Gumboot

Well the first post (T.A.M.) concerned Clinton doing just that. If its OK for GWB to be over here botching things up for the men over there its OK for Clinton to have done the same.

Shall we list the nasty things both men did to the military during their time(given that GWB still has time to do more)

Why not call it a draw and leave it at that.

You seem to be a Republican and I am a fiscal conservative, social liberal Canadian. (I voted for the local Conservative Party candidate in the last election)

[NoZed Avenger]

I've always had a lot of admiration for the Spartans. In fact, my sig is a (slightly altered) quote from a Spartan general.

This movie didn't do anything to change that.

Conversely, I've always admired the Thebans, who held the pass with the Spartans until the situation became objectively impossible, then freaking left.

[Redtail]

Conversely, I've always admired the Thebans, who held the pass with the Spartans until the situation became objectively impossible, then freaking left.

Well the Thespians stayed. :D

[gumboot]

Well the first post (T.A.M.) concerned Clinton doing just that. If its OK for GWB to be over here botching things up for the men over there its OK for Clinton to have done the same.

Shall we list the nasty things both men did to the military during their time(given that GWB still has time to do more)

Why not call it a draw and leave it at that.

You seem to be a Republican and I am a fiscal conservative, social liberal Canadian. (I voted for the local Conservative Party candidate in the last election)



:confused:

My original comment (re: the Romans) was actually supporting what you were saying...remarks were made about how Leonidas was a real leader - leading from the front, in contrast with, for example, modern Presidents. I merely pointed out that this Greek method of leadership didn't fare so well against the method of leadership employed by the Romans (the same method employed by modern countries) - that being the top-ranking leaders keep out of harm's way and out of the heat of battle where they can view the entire action objectively and direct their forces sensibly.

Me a Republican? :confused: I'm not even an American. Surely you realise "Republican" has a very different meaning in Commonwealth countries?

I don't know what I am, but I'm definately not a Republican, in any sense of the word.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Conversely, I've always admired the Thebans, who held the pass with the Spartans until the situation became objectively impossible, then freaking left.


And then swapped sides and got massacred at Plataea...:rolleyes:

-Gumboot

[NoZed Avenger]

And then swapped sides and got massacred at Plataea...:rolleyes:

-Gumboot

No one's perfect :).

The Thebans (IIRC) were pretty much being held hostage for the fight anyway -- I was being a smartass.

But seriously, the Persians had been stymied for a few days and time was bought, but the Greeks lost their positional advantage when the Persians discovered (were told about) the mountain path around their psotion. While an argument can be made that the additional fighting -might- have purchased additional time, it is unclear to me that the additional sacrifice did any real good. I'll admit it's been a few years since I did any reading on the subject, however.

[NoZed Avenger]

Well the Thespians stayed. :D

And the mimes.

Who could forget their famous battle cry: " "

[NeoRicen]

I thoguht I'd chip in with my opinion on the 300 issue. You gotta remember a few things. It's based of a comic book so if anything's to blame it's that and oddly enough the Spartans weren't a democracy which makes the whole thing a little odd.

But honestly, what's wrong with a little pride in Western accomplishments? Westerners these days seem to be paranoid of any sort of pride in anything the west accomplished in the past because it might offend people.

The Battle of Thermopylae was a great example of a fantastic acheivement by westerners in the past (In the same vein as Gallipoli) and if it's embelished into entertainment which goes on about freedom etc. then I don't see the problem. We all know it's just a movie and if it makes American/European/Australians etc. proud of their cultural history then that's great.

What really gets me is the whole anti-western attitude people have these days, like it's immoral or politcally incorrect to be proud of Western military history/victories, but no one cares about Easterners going on about their achievements because it's 'culturally diverse'.

Also to be clear I'm not a Republican (well I am, but I'm not American so it has another meaning, but I'm not a US Politcal Party Republican) and I'm not to fond of the right in general but I also despise politcal correctness and 'anti westernism', and no I don't have some conspiracy theory about groups deliberately doing this because they support the terrorists or anything, it's just an observation.

[gumboot]

The Battle of Thermopylae was a great example of a fantastic acheivement by westerners in the past (In the same vein as Gallipoli) and if it's embelished into entertainment which goes on about freedom etc. then I don't see the problem.


Er... what?

How is Gallipolli a fantastic achievement by westerners? :confused: We got beaten. By none westerners. The entire campaign was an utter disaster.

-Gumboot

[NeoRicen]

Er... what?

How is Gallipolli a fantastic achievement by westerners? :confused: We got beaten. By none westerners. The entire campaign was an utter disaster.

-Gumboot

Well they lost at Thermopylae too, my point is how they're remembered, bravery and all that, Thermopylae was a much biggere achievemet because of how long they lasted etc. but the point is both of them aren't remembered for being a vicotry.

[gumboot]

Well they lost at Thermopylae too, my point is how they're remembered, bravery and all that, Thermopylae was a much biggere achievemet because of how long they lasted etc. but the point is both of them aren't remembered for being a vicotry.


Er... militarily, Thermopylae was a victory for the Greeks. They succeeded in delaying the Persians for a week (which was their objective). The Persians failed to enter Greece swiftly (which was their objective).

It was never the objective of the Greek forces to defeat the enemy army entirely.

In contrast, the allied objective in the Gallipoli campaign was to capture Constantinople, and the Turkish objective was to drive the allies away. The allies failed in their objective and the Turks succeeded in theirs.

-Gumboot

[jimbob]

Well they lost at Thermopylae too, my point is how they're remembered, bravery and all that, Thermopylae was a much biggere achievemet because of how long they lasted etc. but the point is both of them aren't remembered for being a vicotry.

How much more famous is the charge of the light brigade compared to the charge of the heavy brigade?

"Down with intelligence and long live death"