Visa express program: Just another coincidence?

[busherie]

Well, here is a program that will just be another coincidence for you guys:

--> Only for Saudi Arbabia
--> from may 2001 to 2002
--> KSM used it to enter the US
--> The system was "blinking red"

So? No.... Just a lack of coordination between the agencies, of course. Don't be fools!

May 2001: Hijackers Take Advantage of New, Anonymous Visa Express Procedure (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a0501visaexpress#a0501visaexpress )

The US introduces the “Visa Express” program in Saudi Arabia, which allows any Saudi Arabian to obtain a visa through his or her travel agent instead of appearing at a consulate in person. An official later states, “The issuing officer has no idea whether the person applying for the visa is actually the person in the documents and application.” [US News and World Report, 12/12/2001 (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/terror/articles/visa011212.htm); US Congress, 9/20/2002]

At the time, warnings of an attack against the US led by the Saudi Osama bin Laden are higher than they had ever been before— “off the charts” as one senator later puts it. [Los Angeles Times, 5/18/2002; US Congress, 9/18/2002]

A terrorism conference had recently concluded that Saudi Arabia was one of four top nationalities in al-Qaeda. [Star-Tribune (Minneapolis), 5/19/2002] Five hijackers—Khalid Almihdhar, Abdulaziz Alomari, Salem Alhazmi, Saeed Alghamdi, and Fayez Ahmed Banihammad—use Visa Express over the next month to enter the US. [US Congress, 9/20/2002]

Even 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed will successfully get a US Visa through this program in July (using a false name but real photograph), despite a posted $2 million reward for his capture. [Los Angeles Times, 1/27/2004]

Only three percent of Saudi visa applicants are turned down by US consular officers in fiscal 2000 and 2001. In contrast, about 25 percent of US visa seekers worldwide are rejected. Acceptance is even more difficult for applicants from countries alleged to have ties to terrorism such as Iraq or Iran. [Washington Post, 10/31/2001 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=nation/specials/attacked&contentId=A14788-2001Oct30&notFound=true)] The widely criticized program is finally canceled in July 2002.




Any thoughts, dear debunkers?





(http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline)



(http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline)

[Arus808]

what? just another whole in are very laxed security and customs that these terrorists took advantage of.

no surprise here.

[Horatius]

The US government tries to cozy up to the Saudis by giving them preferred access, and it costs them dearly. Big surprise. Why wouldn't the terrorists try to take advantage of the system, since it existed?

If the NWO or whoever really did want to give visas to these guys, why use a big fancy public system to do it? Why not just route some documents to them through third party connections? Why leave a public paper trail? Why leave a public paper trail that makes you look like idiots?

[~enigma~]

Well, here is a program that will just be another coincidence for you guys:

--> Only for Saudi Arbabia
--> from may 2001 to 2002
--> KSM used it to enter the US
--> The system was "blinking red"

So? No.... Just a lack of coordination between the agencies, of course. Don't be fools!

May 2001: Hijackers Take Advantage of New, Anonymous Visa Express Procedure (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a0501visaexpress#a0501visaexpress )

The US introduces the “Visa Express” program in Saudi Arabia, which allows any Saudi Arabian to obtain a visa through his or her travel agent instead of appearing at a consulate in person. An official later states, “The issuing officer has no idea whether the person applying for the visa is actually the person in the documents and application.” [US News and World Report, 12/12/2001 (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/terror/articles/visa011212.htm); US Congress, 9/20/2002]

At the time, warnings of an attack against the US led by the Saudi Osama bin Laden are higher than they had ever been before— “off the charts” as one senator later puts it. [Los Angeles Times, 5/18/2002; US Congress, 9/18/2002]

A terrorism conference had recently concluded that Saudi Arabia was one of four top nationalities in al-Qaeda. [Star-Tribune (Minneapolis), 5/19/2002] Five hijackers—Khalid Almihdhar, Abdulaziz Alomari, Salem Alhazmi, Saeed Alghamdi, and Fayez Ahmed Banihammad—use Visa Express over the next month to enter the US. [US Congress, 9/20/2002]

Even 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed will successfully get a US Visa through this program in July (using a false name but real photograph), despite a posted $2 million reward for his capture. [Los Angeles Times, 1/27/2004]

Only three percent of Saudi visa applicants are turned down by US consular officers in fiscal 2000 and 2001. In contrast, about 25 percent of US visa seekers worldwide are rejected. Acceptance is even more difficult for applicants from countries alleged to have ties to terrorism such as Iraq or Iran. [Washington Post, 10/31/2001 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=nation/specials/attacked&contentId=A14788-2001Oct30&notFound=true)] The widely criticized program is finally canceled in July 2002.




Any thoughts, dear debunkers?





(http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline)



(http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline)Do you have any idea what the program was aimed to do and why it was thought necessary? Wouldn't it be smart to read up on that bEFORE you make a childish ASSumption?

[A W Smith]

how did the interest rate compare to master card? and did they use the visa to buy Richard Reid's shoes? because everyone knows cave men only wear sandals.

[R.Mackey]

Many of the hijackers were in country prior to May 2001.

This "coincidence" of yours is, therefore, unnecessary. Thus, if it isn't a coincidence, its existence is a clumsy, idiotic giveaway. This illustrates Perry's Principle nicely.

In other words, it's just a coincidence.

[busherie]

If the NWO or whoever really did want to give visas to these guys, why use a big fancy public system to do it? Why not just route some documents to them through third party connections? Why leave a public paper trail? Why leave a public paper trail that makes you look like idiots?

My friend, since they were to find out who did the attacks, questions would be raised about how they got to the US, where they got their visa. At the same time, the terrorists had to be able to come to the US.

So setting up this system was the less stupid solution.

Of course, as I thought, this is just another "coincidence", showing how "laxist the system was".

Of course.

[~enigma~]

My friend, since they were to find out who did the attacks, questions would be raised about how they got to the US, where they got their visa. At the same time, the terrorists had to be able to come to the US.

So setting up this system was the less stupid solution.

Of course, as I thought, this is just another "coincidence", showing how "laxist the system was".

Of course.
Why did you skip over my comment? Is it uncomfortable so you ignore it in the hopes that it will go away?

[Redtail]

Well, here is a program that will just be another coincidence for you guys:

--> Only for Saudi Arbabia
--> from may 2001 to 2002
--> KSM used it to enter the US
--> The system was "blinking red"

So? No.... Just a lack of coordination between the agencies, of course. Don't be fools!

May 2001: Hijackers Take Advantage of New, Anonymous Visa Express Procedure (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a0501visaexpress#a0501visaexpress )

The US introduces the “Visa Express” program in Saudi Arabia, which allows any Saudi Arabian to obtain a visa through his or her travel agent instead of appearing at a consulate in person. An official later states, “The issuing officer has no idea whether the person applying for the visa is actually the person in the documents and application.” [US News and World Report, 12/12/2001 (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/terror/articles/visa011212.htm); US Congress, 9/20/2002]

At the time, warnings of an attack against the US led by the Saudi Osama bin Laden are higher than they had ever been before— “off the charts” as one senator later puts it. [Los Angeles Times, 5/18/2002; US Congress, 9/18/2002]

A terrorism conference had recently concluded that Saudi Arabia was one of four top nationalities in al-Qaeda. [Star-Tribune (Minneapolis), 5/19/2002] Five hijackers—Khalid Almihdhar, Abdulaziz Alomari, Salem Alhazmi, Saeed Alghamdi, and Fayez Ahmed Banihammad—use Visa Express over the next month to enter the US. [US Congress, 9/20/2002]

Even 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed will successfully get a US Visa through this program in July (using a false name but real photograph), despite a posted $2 million reward for his capture. [Los Angeles Times, 1/27/2004]

Only three percent of Saudi visa applicants are turned down by US consular officers in fiscal 2000 and 2001. In contrast, about 25 percent of US visa seekers worldwide are rejected. Acceptance is even more difficult for applicants from countries alleged to have ties to terrorism such as Iraq or Iran. [Washington Post, 10/31/2001 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=nation/specials/attacked&contentId=A14788-2001Oct30&notFound=true)] The widely criticized program is finally canceled in July 2002.




Any thoughts, dear debunkers?





(http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline)



(http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline)

3 of the 19 hijackers used the Visa Express program.

Also did you read the artice you cited? If you did then why did you say "Only for Saudi Arabia"?

The State Department has tightened visa procedures, though Visa Express and similar programs in other countries remain in place.

[Arus808]

Of course, as I thought, this is just another "coincidence", showing how "laxist the system was".



it was. or forget the fact that they were here legally anyway.

[busherie]

Do you have any idea what the program was aimed to do and why it was thought necessary? Wouldn't it be smart to read up on that bEFORE you make a childish ASSumption?

Oh , I know: "facilitate" workers and tourists immigration.

In may 2001? For Saudi Arabia only?

Some were in the States already, yes. But for LIHOP theorists the US did not know very precisely if terrorists were there or not (who was there, and where). What they very precisely knew, however, is that the system was blinking red, and attacks would allow the now ready administration to go on with their agenda. OBL "was determined to strike in US".

Setting up the visa express program was part of making the attacks very very likely (if they could be more likely!)

Busherie

[~enigma~]

Busherie...the question isn't going to disappear. Here you go...

Do you have any idea what the program was aimed to do and why it was thought necessary? Wouldn't it be smart to read up on that bEFORE you make a childish ASSumption?

[~enigma~]

Earth calling busherie...are you alive? Are you going to answer or are you going to run like a woo?

[busherie]

3 of the 19 hijackers used the Visa Express program.

Also did you read the artice you cited? If you did then why did you say "Only for Saudi Arabia"?

The State Department has tightened visa procedures, though Visa Express and similar programs in other countries remain in place.

I maintain: it was the first time the program was fully implemented. They were partial programes in other countries, true.

Let's see, let's choose a country to start this band new program... Saudia Arabia? yeah!

"Partial versions of Visa Express—though not by that name—were implemented in various countries in the mid- to late-1990s. But nowhere in the world had State launched a program whereby all residents, citizens and non-citizens alike, would be expected to submit visa applications to local, private travel agencies. It was a bold—and untested—plan. Yet State chose to try out this ambitious project in a nation that was a known hotbed of al Qaeda extremists. To be fair, most Americans were not thinking about national security in late 2000 and early 2001, but State should have been. That’s its job. Khobar Towers, the U.S. military dormitory, had been attacked by Hezbollah terrorists in 1996, killing nineteen U.S. soldiers, and wounding 372. And State had ample information that al Qaeda was fully operational inside Saudi Arabia. Yet State went ahead in that environment with plans to launch its first nationwide Visa Express program."

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/JoelMowbray/2003/09/30/open_door_for_saudi_terrorists--startling_new_revelation

[Arus808]

when are you going to address enigma's question?

[~enigma~]

Coward...can't you answer a simple question? BTW, how wide is the yellow stripe on your back?

[~enigma~]

when are you going to address enigma's question?
He can't otherwise he disproves his assumption.

[busherie]

Oh , I know: "facilitate" workers and tourists immigration.

In may 2001? For Saudi Arabia only?

Some were in the States already, yes. But for LIHOP theorists the US did not know very precisely if terrorists were there or not (who was there, and where). What they very precisely knew, however, is that the system was blinking red, and attacks would allow the now ready administration to go on with their agenda. OBL "was determined to strike in US".

Setting up the visa express program was part of making the attacks very very likely (if they could be more likely!)

Busherie

I did, 10 minutes ago! You may not agree, but I did... If you have better explanatio, i'd love to read it!

Busherie

[Redtail]

I maintain: it was the first time the program was fully implemented. They were partial programes in other countries, true.

Let's see, let's choose a country to start this band new program... Saudia Arabia? yeah!

"Partial versions of Visa Express—though not by that name—were implemented in various countries in the mid- to late-1990s. But nowhere in the world had State launched a program whereby all residents, citizens and non-citizens alike, would be expected to submit visa applications to local, private travel agencies. It was a bold—and untested—plan. Yet State chose to try out this ambitious project in a nation that was a known hotbed of al Qaeda extremists. To be fair, most Americans were not thinking about national security in late 2000 and early 2001, but State should have been. That’s its job. Khobar Towers, the U.S. military dormitory, had been attacked by Hezbollah terrorists in 1996, killing nineteen U.S. soldiers, and wounding 372. And State had ample information that al Qaeda was fully operational inside Saudi Arabia. Yet State went ahead in that environment with plans to launch its first nationwide Visa Express program."

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/JoelMowbray/2003/09/30/open_door_for_saudi_terrorists--startling_new_revelation


But you chose to say "Only in Saudi Arabria". Well it does sound better than many countries including Saudi Arabia.

Now then, about the fact that 3 of the 19 Hijackers used the program?
(I can wait until after you address enigma's question.)

[busherie]

But you chose to say "Only in Saudi Arabria". Well it does sound better than many countries including Saudi Arabia.

Now then, about the fact that 3 of the 19 Hijackers used the program?
(I can wait until after you address enigma's question.)
I think the source is pretty clear:

Only in Saudi Arabia did the State department implemented the Visa express program. Yes, partial versions of this type of procedure had been implemented, but never on this scale:

Partial versions of Visa Express—though not by that name—were implemented in various countries in the mid- to late-1990s. But nowhere in the world had State launched a program whereby all residents, citizens and non-citizens alike, would be expected to submit visa applications to local, private travel agencies

It is fair to say that the Visa express program was implemented in Saudi Arabia only.

As for Enigma question, I think I have been clear enough, though i don't pretend to know the truth:

the aim was, officially of course, to facilitate tourist and workers coming to the USA. The principle is simple: it was anonymous, you could apply in a travel agency. To me, that sounds like:

"Terrorists wanted!"

As I said before, many of the 9/11 terrorists were there at that time, but the intelligence agencies did not know precisely who was in the US who was not. However, what noone can deny is that the State departement was fully aware attacks were more and more likely.

Implementing this program, in Saudi Arabia: that's where OBL comes from!

Now I wait for your answers to this question:

Is it just another coincidence?

[~enigma~]

I did, 10 minutes ago! You may not agree, but I did... If you have better explanatio, i'd love to read it!

Busherie
That was an answer to my question? Funny neither i nor Arus thought it was. Maybe that was your opinion or what you read on a CT webpage but in either event it didn't answer a damn thing. Now go do some proper research before making idiotic ASSumptions and then answer the question as asked not as you want it to be. An answer is not a counter question either...

[~enigma~]

As for Enigma question, I think I have been clear enough, though i don't pretend to know the truth:So don't you think it would be a good idea to check it out before you make ASSumptions?

ETA - Redtail came extremely close to saving you from the necessity of doing research. Take the hint from his post and research it.

[~enigma~]

the aim was, officially of course, to facilitate tourist and workers coming to the USA.Bzzzt...that was not the aim? Where did you get that stupid idea...off a box of cracker jacks?

[Firestone]

Since only 3 of the 19 terrorists used this Visa express program, the relevance of this coincidence escapes me.

But I agree it may not totally be a coincidence.

If a terror group wants to mount attacks from within the USA, it seems logical it will prefer to use nationals from "US-friendly" countries.

Iraqis, Lybians, Palestinians, indeed would attract much more attention from CIA/FBI than Saudis.

That's the way it was. Al Qaeda took advantage of that. They are smart people, not "cavemen" like the CTists think.

It doesn't in the least point to LIHOP.

[Gravy]

Busherie, are you aware that many millions of foreigners are legally allowed into the U.S. without any visas at all?

[Redtail]

I think the source is pretty clear:

Only in Saudi Arabia did the State department implemented the Visa express program. Yes, partial versions of this type of procedure had been implemented, but never on this scale:

Partial versions of Visa Express—though not by that name—were implemented in various countries in the mid- to late-1990s. But nowhere in the world had State launched a program whereby all residents, citizens and non-citizens alike, would be expected to submit visa applications to local, private travel agencies

It is fair to say that the Visa express program was implemented in Saudi Arabia only.

As for Enigma question, I think I have been clear enough, though i don't pretend to know the truth:

the aim was, officially of course, to facilitate tourist and workers coming to the USA. The principle is simple: it was anonymous, you could apply in a travel agency. To me, that sounds like:

"Terrorists wanted!"

As I said before, many of the 9/11 terrorists were there at that time, but the intelligence agencies did not know precisely who was in the US who was not. However, what noone can deny is that the State departement was fully aware attacks were more and more likely.

Implementing this program, in Saudi Arabia: that's where OBL comes from!

Now I wait for your answers to this question:

Is it just another coincidence?

I thought the US News and World Report was pretty clear too.

And yes it is a coincidence. 3 of 19 hijackers used the program.

[Gravy]

Oh , I know: "facilitate" workers and tourists immigration.

In may 2001? For Saudi Arabia only?

Some were in the States already, yes. But for LIHOP theorists the US did not know very precisely if terrorists were there or not (who was there, and where). What they very precisely knew, however, is that the system was blinking red, and attacks would allow the now ready administration to go on with their agenda. OBL "was determined to strike in US".

Setting up the visa express program was part of making the attacks very very likely (if they could be more likely!)

BusherieSo you think the the three terrorists who used the visa express program could not have gained entry into the U.S. without it? Any evidence to support that position?

[~enigma~]

Busherie, if your still reading this take a long hard look at Redtail's post. Do some research based off what he wrote (rather his quote) and then you will be able to answer my question with a bit more of a correct official reason. Want some more direction along with Redtail's post? What was the enviornment the state dept. was working in and what was their concern just prior to the start of the program?

[ihaunter]

I think the source is pretty clear:

Only in Saudi Arabia did the State department implemented the Visa express program. Yes, partial versions of this type of procedure had been implemented, but never on this scale:

Partial versions of Visa Express—though not by that name—were implemented in various countries in the mid- to late-1990s. But nowhere in the world had State launched a program whereby all residents, citizens and non-citizens alike, would be expected to submit visa applications to local, private travel agencies

It is fair to say that the Visa express program was implemented in Saudi Arabia only.

While technically correct, it is very misleading. The way you say it makes it seem as if this was 100% unique to S.A. Clearly, that is not the case.


As for Enigma question, I think I have been clear enough, though i don't pretend to know the truth:

and yet you claim it indicates complicity in the attacks.


the aim was, officially of course, to facilitate tourist and workers coming to the USA. The principle is simple: it was anonymous, you could apply in a travel agency. To me, that sounds like:

"Terrorists wanted!"

As I said before, many of the 9/11 terrorists were there at that time, but the intelligence agencies did not know precisely who was in the US who was not. However, what noone can deny is that the State departement was fully aware attacks were more and more likely.

Implementing this program, in Saudi Arabia: that's where OBL comes from!

Now I wait for your answers to this question:

Is it just another coincidence?

No coincidence. Some of the terrorist found a hole in US security and used it.

[~enigma~]

Fun watching a woo try to squirm out of this. He says he doesn't pretend to know the truth yet he asks us although he claims the state dept. put out a so called terrorist want ad by the program.

[Babbylonian]

Busherie, are you aware that many millions of foreigners are legally allowed into the U.S. without any visas at all?
Indeed. It took me about two minutes to find out that the Visa Waiver Program (http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html) has been in place since 1986 and that 27 countries currently participate in it. Add in the lesser requirements of visitors from Mexico, Canada and Bermuda (http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1260.html), and that makes 30 countries from which someone could gain entry to the US without the formalities of obtaining a visa from the State Department. Besides, given the number of illegal immigrants who get into the US (and the amount of money AQ could have spent per-terrorist to ensure their participation in 9/11), I don't see that the ability to legally enter the country would be a requirement of the operation.

I think the fundamental problem is that "Visa Express" appears to be a smoking gun only to people who already believe the US Government was responsible for 9/11, either by LIHOP or MIHOP. To the rest of us, it just looks like an attempt - perhaps misguided - to reduce red tape for travelers from a "friendly" nation.

[~enigma~]

Seems you don't want to answer Busherie woo. That's ok...think about what exactly the visa express program allowed and what it accomplished. Combine that with what Redtail wrote about the environment at the time and maybe you can answer without doing any real research unless the CT websites you frequent have scrambled your skills of logical reasoning.

[Horatius]

My friend, since they were to find out who did the attacks, questions would be raised about how they got to the US, where they got their visa. At the same time, the terrorists had to be able to come to the US.

So setting up this system was the less stupid solution.

Of course, as I thought, this is just another "coincidence", showing how "laxist the system was".

Of course.


Yes, questions would be raised - but how could anyone track a visa supplied by the shadowy NWO? The question might be raised, but would go completely unanswered - one of many things the NWO would cover up as a matter of course, if the CTist are correct. So why go out of your way to create a paper trail, if you don't have to?

As for a "laxist" system, well, seems pretty lax alright:


Indeed. It took me about two minutes to find out that the Visa Waiver Program (http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html) has been in place since 1986 and that 27 countries currently participate in it. Add in the lesser requirements of visitors from Mexico, Canada and Bermuda (http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1260.html), and that makes 30 countries from which someone could gain entry to the US without the formalities of obtaining a visa from the State Department. Besides, given the number of illegal immigrants who get into the US (and the amount of money AQ could have spent per-terrorist to ensure their participation in 9/11), I don't see that the ability to legally enter the country would be a requirement of the operation.

I think the fundamental problem is that "Visa Express" appears to be a smoking gun only to people who already believe the US Government was responsible for 9/11, either by LIHOP or MIHOP. To the rest of us, it just looks like an attempt - perhaps misguided - to reduce red tape for travelers from a "friendly" nation.

[busherie]

Indeed. It took me about two minutes to find out that the Visa Waiver Program (http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html) has been in place since 1986 and that 27 countries currently participate in it. Add in the lesser requirements of visitors from Mexico, Canada and Bermuda (http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1260.html), and that makes 30 countries from which someone could gain entry to the US without the formalities of obtaining a visa from the State Department. Besides, given the number of illegal immigrants who get into the US (and the amount of money AQ could have spent per-terrorist to ensure their participation in 9/11), I don't see that the ability to legally enter the country would be a requirement of the operation.

I think the fundamental problem is that "Visa Express" appears to be a smoking gun only to people who already believe the US Government was responsible for 9/11, either by LIHOP or MIHOP. To the rest of us, it just looks like an attempt - perhaps misguided - to reduce red tape for travelers from a "friendly" nation.


Why enter legally? Well my friend, think about Moussaoui.. Rings a bell?

I think people on this forum don't understand. We are not talking about Canada, Bermuda, Mexico. We are talking about Saudi Arabia.

Andorra
Iceland
Norway
Australia
Ireland
Portugal
Austria
Italy
San Marino
Belgium
Japan
Singapore
Brunei
Liechtenstein
Slovenia
Denmark
Luxembourg
Spain
Finland
Monaco
Sweden
France
the Netherlands
Switzerland
Germany
New Zealand
United Kingdom

Do you see Jordan, or Egypt?

Saudi Arabia, a country where Al Qaida got its leader and many operatives from. Is it a friendly country? Officially yes, but come on, don't think the US administration are stupids. They didn't know people from Saudi Arabia were dangerous?

Think about the "environment" in May 2001: numerous warnings sign, a system blinking red, Clarke desesperatly trying to alert the decision makers.

Enigma, you are using straw man arguments. VEP or Visa waiver program are designed to facilitate procedures for tourits and migrants. Why specifically for Saudi Arabia? Well that IS the question.

In the may 2001 context, given the warnings about very likely attacks, this is clearly not a coincidence.

if you think it is, then you are just voluntarily ignoring reality. Step away from your deeply entranched beliefs: consider this program, consider the country, consider the context, is it REALLY just a coincidence?

Busherie

[DavidJames]

...is it REALLY just a coincidence?Unless you can provide some facts to support this, another of your wet dreams, then yes, it is.

Please note, if some real evidence is obtained, I would consider it.

[Firestone]

15 of the terrorists were Saudis.
3 used the Visa Express program. 12 didn't.

That says is all.
Not a smoking gun, just one more damp squib ...

[Babbylonian]

You've purposely missed my point (and those of others, of course), busherie. My point was that obtaining false documents establishing citizenship in one of the 30 countries listed would be (or, at least, would have been) a trivial exercise given enough money. Thus, obtaining access to the US without a visa would be easy for a decently financed terrorist (and these particular terrorists were well financed). The US still doesn't have an answer for illegal immigration, and therefore terrorists can still - even after all the safeguards that have been put in place - get into the US fairly easily and then, again, obtain falsified documents to get by day to day until they attack.

In other words, there was no need to establish a special program for Saudi Arabia if the intent was to allow terrorists into the country. And, if a conspiracy existed wishing that to happen, it would be an obvious mistake to generate a publically known program in order to do so.

The idea that terrorists couldn't get into the US without the US Government making it easier seems to be based on the preconception that terrorists are stupid and/or unworldly. They're neither.

Again, you're viewing this through the eyes of someone who already believes. It's no different than those seeing images of the virgin Mary as "miracles" because they're predisposed to do so, while others just see patterns that usually don't look like anything in particular.

[Gravy]

Do you see Jordan, or Egypt?I see Germany and the United Kingdom. Does that say anything to you?

[Gravy]

...Besides, given the number of illegal immigrants who get into the US (and the amount of money AQ could have spent per-terrorist to ensure their participation in 9/11), I don't see that the ability to legally enter the country would be a requirement of the operation.


Jason Bermas, who wraps himself in the flag and claims to stand for freedom and against the military-industrial complex, proposed a solution to this problem: militarize the U.S. borders. All of them. Seriously.

[busherie]

Unless you can provide some facts to support this, another of your wet dreams, then yes, it is.

Please note, if some real evidence is obtained, I would consider it.

I'd love to present hard evidence. The problem is, i don't have subpoena powers! And we don't have a whitle blower, nor do we have a clear piece of paper signed by Negroponte or Powell or somebody from the State dept saying "create the VEP for Saudi Arabia".

The problem, for CTists, is we do have several serious smoking guns (in our opinion at least I know you guys don't agree, but that's what debate is for) but as any investigation, when you have serious hints you must have certain powers to investigate (subpoena, searches, mandates etc...). We don't. This is why we call for a new investigation.

After all, it may have been a coincidence (lack of information sharing within the State dept, incompetence etc...). But I think the doubts are serious enough to be sure it was a coincidence. Just like a cop would do.

15 of the terrorists were Saudis.
3 used the Visa Express program. 12 didn't.

That says is all.
Not a smoking gun, just one more damp squib ...

Again you do not undertsand my point. I'm not saying the State dept sent an e-mail to the hijackers saying "ok guys we set up a new visa program to allow you to come discretely to the US to kill plenty of innocent citizens arrrr!!".

No it's not that simple. My view is some leaders (Cheney, Rice, and a few others) had a global picture of what was going on: an attack was imminent on US soil. People were coming to the US for that purpose, they had Saudi links. We have an agenda we think is good for the US and the world. It's worth the death of innocent citizens (after all, how many have been sacrificed since then?).

In this context, they thought that loosening the visa procedure for Saudi Arabia was gonna facilitate the coming of tourists and migrants, but also terrorists.

And the attacks happened. And surely they've had a heaby burden since then. But, after all, Bush sleeps very well at night even though US citizens and troops, and thousands of civilians around the world die (partly) because of them.

Life is not simple, it is cruel, you should start to realize that.

Now, thanks for your attention and plz show how this Saudi visa program was just a coincidence.

PS: babylonian, they were scared to get caught. Like Moussaoui did. This program was a blessing.

[Babbylonian]

Jason Bermas, who wraps himself in the flag and claims to stand for freedom and against the military-industrial complex, proposed a solution to this problem: militarize the U.S. borders. All of them. Seriously.
Some folks just don't get the USA. That's a big part of "the problem," both domestically and overseas.

[busherie]

Jason Bermas, who wraps himself in the flag and claims to stand for freedom and against the military-industrial complex, proposed a solution to this problem: militarize the U.S. borders. All of them. Seriously.


Surely this is a stupid solution. I think the US have gone so far in the wrong diection they have forgotten the real roots of terrorism.

There is a solution against terrorism. It did not always exist, it can disappear. the roots are well-known:

- misery, unemployement
- the fact that the US and western governements support governments that are undemocratic and mistreat their people: Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc etc
- the israelo palestinian conflict that is a cancer and moral breeding ground for misled young people from these countries.

And we CAN tackle these issues. I mean, just think about the infamous amount of money spent on this stupid wars.

Of course there wil always be some crazy people like OBL, but I can tell you they wouldn't have followers if we took care of the real issues.

[Babbylonian]

PS: babylonian, they were scared to get caught. Like Moussaoui did. This program was a blessing.
For, again, THREE of them. Further, considering what they were planning, I'm quite sure they were scared to get caught every friggin' day. You think that being here on valid visas made them feel more comfortable? You think that they wouldn't have attempted the crime if it required them to enter the country illegally and use falsified documents?

I guess it's lucky for them that the conspiracy was concerned with their comfort level.

PS: It's "Babbylonian." The misspelling is deliberate.

[busherie]

For, again, THREE of them. Further, considering what they were planning, I'm quite sure they were scared to get caught every friggin' day. You think that being here on valid visas made them feel more comfortable? You think that they wouldn't have attempted the crime if it required them to enter the country illegally and use falsified documents?

I guess it's lucky for them that the conspiracy was concerned with their comfort level.

PS: It's "Babbylonian." The misspelling is deliberate.
Again, nobody knew at the time how many or who exactly was on the operation (unless you are even more Ct than I am... :)

Babbylonian, I'm saying it could have been 15 or 3, it doesn't really matter. What matters is this system is a real smoking gun. Implementing it at this time anf for this country is the real point.

By facilitating their visa procedure, you would minimize their chances of ending up like Moussaoui, and maximizing their chances not to get caught, despite all the intel that was circulating at the time.

Busherie

[~enigma~]

Enigma, you are using straw man arguments. VEP or Visa waiver program are designed to facilitate procedures for tourits and migrants. Why specifically for Saudi Arabia? Well that IS the question.
Strawman argument? Do you know what a strawman argument is or are you just parroting your god Alex Jones? Answer the question idjit.

[~enigma~]

I'd love to present hard evidence. The problem is, i don't have subpoena powers! No as[rule8]le. You don't have enough of a brain to do research and answer the question asked. You are a woowoo just like killtown the idiot.

[Babbylonian]

Babbylonian, I'm saying it could have been 15 or 3, it doesn't really matter. What matters is this system is a real smoking gun. Implementing it at this time anf for this country is the real point.
And I'm saying that the only way it appears to be a "smoking gun" is if you already believe that the US Government was trying to facilitate such attacks. Otherwise, it's only evidence that the US Government generally likes people to visit from foreign countries - and, again, Saudi Arabia has long been considered a US ally - and tries to make that as painless as possible.

[~enigma~]

By facilitating their visa procedure, you would minimize their chances Anything else being minimized, C'mon bushboy...use the brain you claim you have.

[busherie]

And I'm saying that the only way it appears to be a "smoking gun" is if you already believe that the US Government was trying to facilitate such attacks. Otherwise, it's only evidence that the US Government generally likes people to visit from foreign countries - and, again, Saudi Arabia has long been considered a US ally - and tries to make that as painless as possible.
Then you understand the title of this thread: Just another coincidence?

Because 9/11 is just full of coincidences. Lack of intel sharing, incompetence, bad luck.

So the US knew that there was something going on, and yet the the State departement went on with this program who clearly was gonna help make the defense system a little more blind.

This is the difference between you Jref people and CTs: you choose to believe the incompetence/coincidence theory to explain the why these attacks weren't stopped.

Whereas we believe that everything that happened after 9/11 shows the official version is fabricated: war in IQ, Patriot act written even before 9/11, all the research pointing to serious warnings.

I thought for a long time the official story was roughly true. But I mean when you have elements, like the visa express programs, you have got to ask yourself some questions.

Do you?

PS: if you would please stop insulting me, it's not very civilized.

Thx for attention

Busherie

[scooby]

Well, here is a program that will just be another coincidence for you guys:

Debunked.
And onions.
They've been debunked as well.
They can debunk anything on here.

[~enigma~]

Yo bushboy...what else is being minimized? Read the 4th paragraph of that US News And World Report story you linked to and also read later on.

[~enigma~]

Debunked.
And onions.
They've been debunked as well.
They can debunk anything on here.hey doughboy...you want to give my question a shot?

[Gravy]

Busherie, I'm a JREFer, and I do not, as you say, support any "incompetence/coincidence" theory of the 9/11 attacks.

You can ask all the questions you want, but what's the point if you ignore rational and fact-based answers?

[Gravy]

Debunked.
And onions.
They've been debunked as well.
They can debunk anything on here.Rather than whining, scooby, why not point out what people have gotten wrong? Isn't that what rational people when they want others to understand why they disagree with an argument?

[~enigma~]

In hindsight the visa express program was not the best choice but I am still waiting for either of these woos to answer as to why it was instituted in Saudi Arabia. They can't give a valid reason or they will plainly see that they have no justification whatsoever for using this as an example of 9/11 being an inside job. But then again, they could just be sick, twisted woos like the flat earth society.

[~enigma~]

Rather than whining, scooby, why not point out what people have gotten wrong? Isn't that what rational people when they want others to understand why they disagree with an argument?
Gravy...your wasting your energy. Unfortunately so am I so disregard my previous sentence :)

[Babbylonian]

This is the difference between you Jref people and CTs: you choose to believe the incompetence/coincidence theory to explain the why these attacks weren't stopped.
I choose to see that highly motivated, well-financed terrorists were able to commit mass murder. That the government was unable to prevent it is, unfortunately, obvious. That the government was unwilling to prevent it or knew it was going to happen (beyond "Islamic terrorists will eventually commit terrorist acts in the US" - which has always been obvious) requires a lot more evidence, which I haven't seen yet.

[busherie]

Busherie, I'm a JREFer, and I do not, as you say, support any "incompetence/coincidence" theory of the 9/11 attacks.

You can ask all the questions you want, but what's the point if you ignore rational and fact-based answers?

I am waiting for a rational fact-based explanation for the State Dept implementing this program, in this country, and in this context.

Furthermore, what is your overall belief concerning 9/11?

Note that I don't despise Jrefers when they don't insult me (and you don't, I appreciate it). Overall, I find this forum very efficient to refine CT. (cause they surely are a big mess)

Yo bushboy...what else is being minimized? Read the 4th paragraph of that US News And World Report story you linked to and also read later on.

Can you copy it, because I'm not sure which one you're talking about. But I don't understand your point.

The official reason they implemented it is they wanted to facilitate the visa procedures for tourists and workers
Was there another reason? Well that's the question.

Now stop playing Q, ang get started on A.

[busherie]

I choose to see that highly motivated, well-financed terrorists were able to commit mass murder. That the government was unable to prevent it is, unfortunately, obvious. That the government was unwilling to prevent it or knew it was going to happen (beyond "Islamic terrorists will eventually commit terrorist acts in the US" - which has always been obvious) requires a lot more evidence, which I haven't seen yet.
I agree with the first part of your demonstration.

On the second part, I think that the warnings were obvious, PDB, specific warnings from foreign agencies, Clarke crying to meet with Rice, Cheney and others, and of course ex post facts that 9/11 was THE thing this administratio needed in order to impose war in IQ, Patriot act, massive intervention in the World etc...

However, getting the hard evidence is not something that can happen unless there is some kind of big whistle blower or evidence coming out. That is why a new investigation is needed.

The first one did some of its job, but there was not enough political will and too much political pressure to sort all this out.

[WildCat]

busherie, are you claiming that the visa program was designed specifically to get 3 hijackers into the US?

[~enigma~]

I am waiting for a rational fact-based explanation for the State Dept implementing this program, in this country, and in this context.That is exactly what you were asked. I'm waiting for you to quit acting dumb and answer.



Can you copy it, because I'm not sure which one you're talking about. But I don't understand your point.No I will not do your work for you. Read the article you linked to. Read the 4th paragraph onwards.

The official reason they implemented it is they wanted to facilitate the visa procedures for tourists and workersKeep going....there is more to it. What did the 4th paragraph say and what are the things being minimized? There is a word the morons at LCF use alot and at the moment you are a perfect example of that word...OBTUSE.
Was there another reason? Well that's the question.

Now stop playing Q, ang get started on A.It is you who is going to answer and until you do the only conclusion I and most people here will make is that you and your ilk can care less about truth but only care about accusing the government about 9/11.

[~enigma~]

On the second part, I think that the warnings were obvious, PDB, specific warnings from foreign agencies, Clarke crying to meet with Rice, Cheney and others, and of course ex post facts that 9/11 was THE thing this administratio needed in order to impose war in IQ, Patriot act, massive intervention in the World etc...Wow...backing off your visa express stupidity?

[busherie]

busherie, are you claiming that the visa program was designed specifically to get 3 hijackers into the US?
I am not claiming it was designed to get 3 terrorists in the US. It was originally a plan to facilitate tourists and migrants visas.

But my claim is that by doing so the administration knew that it would be easier for terrorists to get in as well...

It's not only "oh they were incompetent, didn't know about the high level of threats, coincidence, Saudi Arabia is our friend".

[R.Mackey]

That's completely daft. Of Course they know relaxing entry laws makes it easier for criminals to get in.

By that logic, we shouldn't let anybody in, ever, for any reason. Heck, we should start deporting people. The fewer people here, the better, right?

Is that what you propose?

[WildCat]

I am not claiming it was designed to get 3 terrorists in the US. It was originally a plan to facilitate tourists and migrants visas.
So why post it as one of your 9/11 "coincidences"?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I am not claiming it was designed to get 3 terrorists in the US. It was originally a plan to facilitate tourists and migrants visas.

But my claim is that by doing so the administration knew that it would be easier for terrorists to get in as well...
In other words... "I'm going to leave the key to my front door under the Welcome mat. If someone happens to find it, use it, and murder my children.... Oops! I'll just start breaking into houses in the next town over."

Is that it?

[Redtail]

I am not claiming it was designed to get 3 terrorists in the US. It was originally a plan to facilitate tourists and migrants visas.

But my claim is that by doing so the administration knew that it would be easier for terrorists to get in as well...

It's not only "oh they were incompetent, didn't know about the high level of threats, coincidence, Saudi Arabia is our friend".

So they did this hoping that the people involved in the 9/11 plot (that they knew was in the works) would come come into the country because they made it easier? If they knew this was going to happen why did they let Bush sit there in the school like an idiot holding a copy of my pet goat when they could have had him rip off his shirt exposing a big B on on his set of onesy tights and say "Sorry kids there's evil doin's afoot!" and rush off to something that looked heroic.

[busherie]

That's completely daft. Of Course they know relaxing entry laws makes it easier for criminals to get in.

By that logic, we shouldn't let anybody in, ever, for any reason. Heck, we should start deporting people. The fewer people here, the better, right?

Is that what you propose?
Of course not. I'm saying that in the early summer of 2001, implementing such a program was at least completely crazy. It was perfectly clear that Al Qaida had strong saudi links and they should not pay less attention to saudi's applicants. Actually the exact opposit.

Of course, you can't be a 100% sure. But what they did was the last thing to do.

That is why ask if it's just another coincidence. Was this program, on the contrary, accepted on purpose? - facilitating the work of the terrorists?

[busherie]

So they did this hoping that the people involved in the 9/11 plot (that they knew was in the works) would come come into the country because they made it easier? If they knew this was going to happen why did they let Bush sit there in the school like an idiot holding a copy of my pet goat when they could have had him rip off his shirt exposing a big B on on his set of onesy tights and say "Sorry kids there's evil doin's afoot!" and rush off to something that looked heroic.

Because Bush is NOT the guy who was behind this. Andrew Card was holding a paper where he wrote "dont' move". The idea was Bush was to be kept away from the decision making process while the attacks were unfolding.

These guys aren't stupid. Cheney was in the PEOC, watching everything unfold, thinking: that's it. We got it. Our new pearl harbour.

[WildCat]

That is why ask if it's just another coincidence. Was this program, on the contrary, accepted on purpose? - facilitating the work of the terrorists?
Now you're back to claiming it was implemented to get 3 9/11 hijackers into the country?

And does this mean that you accept that 19 suicide hijackers took over 4 planes on 9/11 and crashed 2 of them into the WTC, one into the Pentagon, and one crashed in a field outside of Shanksville, PA?

[busherie]

In other words... "I'm going to leave the key to my front door under the Welcome mat. If someone happens to find it, use it, and murder my children.... Oops! I'll just start breaking into houses in the next town over."

Is that it?
Something like that, except apparently the neocons don't think the US citizens are their children. Because you don't let yourchildren ne murdered to reap off you neighbours.

[WildCat]

Because Bush is NOT the guy who was behind this. Andrew Card was holding a paper where he wrote "dont' move". The idea was Bush was to be kept away from the decision making process while the attacks were unfolding.

These guys aren't stupid. Cheney was in the PEOC, watching everything unfold, thinking: that's it. We got it. Our new pearl harbour.
You're now going to claim that Cheney was in the PEOC when the WTC was hit?

[R.Mackey]

Of course not. I'm saying that in the early summer of 2001, implementing such a program was at least completely crazy. It was perfectly clear that Al Qaida had strong saudi links and they should not pay less attention to saudi's applicants. Actually the exact opposit.

Of course, you can't be a 100% sure. But what they did was the last thing to do.

That is why ask if it's just another coincidence. Was this program, on the contrary, accepted on purpose? - facilitating the work of the terrorists?
Stupid.

It was clear in the 1990's that Saudi Arabia had connections to Al-Qaeda.

It was clear that Spain had ties to ETA, the UK had ties to the IRA. By your logic, these countries also shouldn't have been part of the "Express Visa" programme.

Your whole world view is so utterly simplistic as to be worthless. No matter what input you give it, you come out saying "9/11 Was An Inside Job."

In any case, it doesn't matter. You've now abandoned your argument that it was a "suspicious coincidence," moved away from being any "coincidence" at all, and are now arguing politics. Take it to the Politics forum if you want to argue the case for isolationism.

[busherie]

Now you're back to claiming it was implemented to get 3 9/11 hijackers into the country?

And does this mean that you accept that 19 suicide hijackers took over 4 planes on 9/11 and crashed 2 of them into the WTC, one into the Pentagon, and one crashed in a field outside of Shanksville, PA?

Not really back to i. You know things are never simple. the program was actually first designed under Clinton. The problem is "was it not helpful to implement in in order to increase the probability the attacks succeed?"

And yes, I'm a true LIHOP supporter. I don't think it was possible to do such things as putting explosives in the towers. (altough for WTC7 there is still room for interrogation IMHO). The attacks happened roughly as the commission puts it. The real questions are: what happened at the highest levels of the US administration in the months preceding the attacks?

[Redtail]

Because Bush is NOT the guy who was behind this. Andrew Card was holding a paper where he wrote "dont' move". The idea was Bush was to be kept away from the decision making process while the attacks were unfolding.

These guys aren't stupid. Cheney was in the PEOC, watching everything unfold, thinking: that's it. We got it. Our new pearl harbour.

Then why did you bring Bush up?
And the attacks happened. And surely they've had a heaby burden since then. But, after all, Bush sleeps very well at night even though US citizens and troops, and thousands of civilians around the world die (partly) because of them.


Where are you getting this thing about Andrew Card?

At any rate who said Bush had to be involved in the decision making process? All they had to do was make it look like he was going off to do something. You're saying that they instead made him look stupid and very un-POTUS like? Why?

[busherie]

You're now going to claim that Cheney was in the PEOC when the WTC was hit?

Wait, of course not. i'm pretty sure he was in the PEOC well before 0958; probably 0920.

Stupid.

It was clear in the 1990's that Saudi Arabia had connections to Al-Qaeda.

It was clear that Spain had ties to ETA, the UK had ties to the IRA. By your logic, these countries also shouldn't have been part of the "Express Visa" programme.

Your whole world view is so utterly simplistic as to be worthless. No matter what input you give it, you come out saying "9/11 Was An Inside Job."

In any case, it doesn't matter. You've now abandoned your argument that it was a "suspicious coincidence," moved away from being any "coincidence" at all, and are now arguing politics. Take it to the Politics forum if you want to argue the case for isolationism.

I maintain it: it's obviously a very suspicious coincidence that this program could be implemented in this context and in this contry.

No, it was not that clear in the 1990s Al Qaida was capable to strike in the US (which is a lot more dangerous than having attacks abroad). And designing a program does not mean political will to implement it, especially when the context has changed and you start getting all this intel saudis wanna hit "in US".

Not really "an inside job" since the job was undertaken by the terrorists. Allowing it to happen, that's what the neocons (to simplify) did.

This has nothing to do with isolationism. You go from an extreme to another.

ETA and IRA are completeley different issues: are they "determined to strike in the US"?

Busherie

[~enigma~]

It was originally a plan to facilitate tourists and migrants visas.Simplistic bs...could I expect anymore from a woo?

[Gravy]

I am waiting for a rational fact-based explanation for the State Dept implementing this program, in this country, and in this context.Why are you unable to figure that out? Saudi Arabia was a major ally and trading partner. The U.S. knew of problems with the Saudi passport office for years but didn't do anything about them.

So was the Clinton administration seeking to allow terrorists in?

Well?

Anyway, the only thing the U.S. consular offices did in terms of terrorism was to check names against a watch list. The same watch list was used in the express program. The terrorists who entered the U.S. weren't on that list. Five other conspirators were denied visas for different reasons. How does any of this help your claim?

Furthermore, what is your overall belief concerning 9/11?It was horrible.

[hellaeon]

* breathe *

Mr Busherie, you think life in the world of politics (and in general it seems) is just yes or no. Entirely planned. No surprises.

Rather then rational that 9/11 was done by cunning terrorists, you think its more logical the US Government or NWO or Jews or whoever the plonk decided to spend years and years and years planning this ultra project, costing trillions of dollars, in doing so, implemented purposeful plans like the visa one for no other reason then to aid 20% of the 9/11 terrorists to get in the country. Though they setup this visa plan 20 years before, in case people like you may (wow your such a sleuth!) discover a link between its implementation and 9/11! But little did they know! your so cunning too! Forget tourism, trade, international agreements...no no...it was part of the ultra scheme, uncovered by people like you! Let me guess, they put explosives in the concrete in the towers?

Don't waste my time with such stupid straw clasping. Look at yourself in the mirror and be ashamed.

Then walk out the door, breathe some air and see life exists outside a monitor or TV.

[busherie]

Then why did you bring Bush up?


Where are you getting this thing about Andrew Card?

At any rate who said Bush had to be involved in the decision making process? All they had to do was make it look like he was going off to do something. You're saying that they instead made him look stupid and very un-POTUS like? Why?
And what if he had, by any chance, succesfully stopped the attacks? It was not sure at the time that the air force could not shoot the planes down.

[~enigma~]

That is why ask if it's just another coincidence. Was this program, on the contrary, accepted on purpose? - facilitating the work of the terrorists?If you honestly were asking instead of accusing you would have answered the question I asked you long ago. You are a woo and a charlatan.

[R.Mackey]

No, it was not that clear in the 1990s Al Qaida was capable to strike in the US (which is a lot more dangerous than having attacks abroad). And designing a program does not mean political will to implement it, especially when the context has changed and you start getting all this intel saudis wanna hit "in US".
Um, 1993 WTC bombing sound familiar?

You're out of your depth, that's all there is to it. Just looking for an excuse to complain.

[~enigma~]

Um, 1993 WTC bombing sound familiar?

You're out of your depth, that's all there is to it. Just looking for an excuse to complain.Depth?! The guy is a resident of Flatland. IOW he only has 2 dimensions :)

[Gravy]

No, it was not that clear in the 1990s Al Qaida was capable to strike in the US (which is a lot more dangerous than having attacks abroad). Of course they were. The U.S. contains a great variety of people who enjoy great freedom of movement. And don't forget that bin Laden was one of the funders of the cell that tried to destroy the twin towers in 1993.

Too late. Mackey is wearing his quick-draw serape.

[WildCat]

And what if he had, by any chance, succesfully stopped the attacks? It was not sure at the time that the air force could not shoot the planes down.
At the time, it wasn't clear how many planes had even been hijacked. There was nothing to do at this point until the situation could be assessed and it was determined what was happening.

[~enigma~]

At the time, it wasn't clear how many planes had even been hijacked. There was nothing to do at this point until the situation could be assessed and it was determined what was happening.
Wow...bushboy changes the focus yet again. Think he should try a different tactic otherwise he gets boring pretty quick.

[hellaeon]

Wait, of course not. i'm pretty sure he was in the PEOC well before 0958; probably 0920.



I maintain it: it's obviously a very suspicious coincidence that this program could be implemented in this context and in this contry.

No, it was not that clear in the 1990s Al Qaida was capable to strike in the US (which is a lot more dangerous than having attacks abroad). And designing a program does not mean political will to implement it, especially when the context has changed and you start getting all this intel saudis wanna hit "in US".

Not really "an inside job" since the job was undertaken by the terrorists. Allowing it to happen, that's what the neocons (to simplify) did.

This has nothing to do with isolationism. You go from an extreme to another.

ETA and IRA are completeley different issues: are they "determined to strike in the US"?

Busherie

With your logic, anything the government may warn you about is really a plan by them to do what they are warning you about, right? So you know, if the IRA was dangerous to the US, then your suspicious that the government is immediately behind the threat, right?

This crap is debunked before it even comes out your friggin mouth. How you believe this is suspicious is unreal.

Go do your homework and get to bed. Kids should not be up so late.

* slaps forehead *

[busherie]

Why are you unable to figure that out? Saudi Arabia was a major ally and trading partner. The U.S. knew of problems with the Saudi passport office for years but didn't do anything about them.

So was the Clinton administration seeking to allow terrorists in?

Well?

Anyway, the only thing the U.S. consular offices did in terms of terrorism was to check names against a watch list. The same watch list was used in the express program. The terrorists who entered the U.S. weren't on that list. Five other conspirators were denied visas for different reasons. How does any of this help your claim?

It was horrible.

It was horrible, nobody ever said the contrary. No foreknowledge and will to use it to implement an agenda then? (just to be sure)

* breathe *

Mr Busherie, you think life in the world of politics (and in general it seems) is just yes or no. Entirely planned. No surprises.

Rather then rational that 9/11 was done by cunning terrorists, you think its more logical the US Government or NWO or Jews or whoever the plonk decided to spend years and years and years planning this ultra project, costing trillions of dollars, in doing so, implemented purposeful plans like the visa one for no other reason then to aid 20% of the 9/11 terrorists to get in the country. Though they setup this visa plan 20 years before, in case people like you may (wow your such a sleuth!) discover a link between its implementation and 9/11! But little did they know! your so cunning too! Forget tourism, trade, international agreements...no no...it was part of the ultra scheme, uncovered by people like you! Let me guess, they put explosives in the concrete in the towers?

Don't waste my time with such stupid straw clasping. Look at yourself in the mirror and be ashamed.

Then walk out the door, breathe some air and see life exists outside a monitor or TV.

If you had read a few posts, you would see I'm not MIHOP.

The World is indeed complicated. Only neocons think the world is black or white, evil or good. That's why they suck so much.

Obviously trade, tourism with Saudi Arabia played a role in the implementation of that program. But it never should have been implemented. Not given the level of the threat. That's why we can be suspicious here.

Anyway, you're right. I must get out and change my ming.

It was interesing debating with you.

Good night.

busherie

[Gravy]

It was horrible, nobody ever said the contrary. No foreknowledge and will to use it to implement an agenda then? (just to be sure).

:eye-poppi

You mean you've had suspicions that I may actually be a really, really subtle truther?

[~enigma~]

I guess since bush moron isn't going to answer I can satisfy others curiosity. As said in US News And World Report, security was a concern of the state department. Besides the environment RedTail pointed out, it was foremost on the minds of the government what had taken place in north Africa (two embassies suicide bombed by Al-Qaeda). Later in the same US News article it was said that the visa express program would minimize lines at the consular offices. What does that have to do with security? All that was done was taking a potential target of attack and minimizing the potential civilian targets. But the sad fact is woo will only mention the bad and minimize or ignore everything that doesn't fit in their preconceived world view. I say screw em :)

[Redtail]

And what if he had, by any chance, succesfully stopped the attacks? It was not sure at the time that the air force could not shoot the planes down.

Wow. Ok, by the time Bush was sitting there dazed and confused, WTC 1&2 had already been hit. IF he had done something to stop Flight 77 then he's seen as the guy who can make the tough decisions giving "them" a stronger position.

Now Where are you getting this info on Card holding up a sign saying "Don't move" And WHY would they let Bush just sit there?

[beachnut]

Surely this is a stupid solution. I think the US have gone so far in the wrong diection they have forgotten the real roots of terrorism.

There is a solution against terrorism. It did not always exist, it can disappear. the roots are well-known:

- misery, unemployement
- the fact that the US and western governements support governments that are undemocratic and mistreat their people: Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc etc
- the israelo palestinian conflict that is a cancer and moral breeding ground for misled young people from these countries.

And we CAN tackle these issues. I mean, just think about the infamous amount of money spent on this stupid wars.

Of course there wil always be some crazy people like OBL, but I can tell you they wouldn't have followers if we took care of the real issues.We did away with the guy in Iraq, or a murder we use to do business with not count. Saudi, they give everyone a car and a house! Mistreat, Please mistreat me.

War, you wanted to get rid of bad guys, WE did. It seems you are mixed up to the max.

[hellaeon]

It was horrible, nobody ever said the contrary. No foreknowledge and will to use it to implement an agenda then? (just to be sure)



If you had read a few posts, you would see I'm not MIHOP.

The World is indeed complicated. Only neocons think the world is black or white, evil or good. That's why they suck so much.

Obviously trade, tourism with Saudi Arabia played a role in the implementation of that program. But it never should have been implemented. Not given the level of the threat. That's why we can be suspicious here.

Anyway, you're right. I must get out and change my ming.

It was interesing debating with you.

Good night.

busherie

First off leave Ming out of this. He is a lord and even if you think your flash gordon, you wont beat him a second time.

Secondly, fine - MIHOP LIHOP BEEBOP TREEHOP SLOPSLOP. Stop throwing terms about as if your some special branch of science. All these acronyms are a foundation for the same crap. You believe the government did 9/11, you change your tune based on how people around you accept what you say or determine how crazy you might be, because you too know its crazy to think these grand theories.

Third, neocons think the world is black and white? Whats a neocon? And coming from he who think the plan was implemented to aid terrorists in attacking US soil but not for any other reasons.

[Gravy]

Anyway, you're right. I must get out and change my ming.

I'd never seen this expession before, so I looked it up (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ming&defid=1185045) in the Urban Dictionary. The results weren't encouraging. I hope Busherie has a Vauxhall Astra!

[~enigma~]

I'd never seen this expession before, so I looked it up (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ming&defid=1185045) in the Urban Dictionary. The results weren't encouraging. I hope Busherie has a Vauxhall Astra!
I vote for definition #6 and #7 :)

[ktesibios]

From the US News article:

Of the 15 hijackers who obtained their non-immigrant visas in Saudi Arabia, the U.S. official says, 11 received them before the Visa Express program was put into place, in June.

A fourth suspected hijacker, Saeed Al-Ghamdi, received his visa after the Visa Express program was started. The U.S. official says the man was "a walk-in" at a State Department office in Saudi Arabia and was apparently interviewed by a consular officer.

The official says that the names of the four men--and the names of all the hijackers who obtained their U.S. visas in Saudi Arabia--were run through the State Department's CLASS database (for Consular Lookout and Support System). The database contains regularly updated records and intelligence information on foreign nationals. "There was no derogatory information in the files,'' the official said.

So all of the hijackers who came through Saudi Arabia were vetted by the same method- a "watch list" database in which none of them were linked to anything suspicious. Apparently the consular interview which 11 of them would have gone through had no magic power to spot potential terrorists.

[busherie]

Ming: lol :)

that's one point for you.

I'm afraid that's the only one.

And yes, you are a very very subtle LIHOP, even though you don't know it yet. (would that owe me a nomnination?)

[busherie]

Wow, bad memory, it was fleischer, telling "don't say anything yet"

In the back of the room, Press Secretary Ari Fleischer catches Bush’s eye and holds up a pad of paper for him to read, with “DON’ T SAY ANYTHING YET” written on it in big block letters. [Washington Times, 10/7/2002 (http://web.archive.org/web/20021007213015/http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021007-85016651.htm)] (Note that three articles claim that Bush leaves the classroom at 9:12 a.m.) [New York Times, 9/16/2001 (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/16/national/16VERO.html); Daily Telegraph, 12/16/2001 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/16/wbush16.xml); Daily Mail, 9/8/2002] However, a videotape of the event lasts for “at least seven additional minutes” and ends before Bush leaves.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=classroom&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=Go

Sorry about that.

But it's roughly the same idea.

[~enigma~]

ubtle LIHOP, even though you don't know it yet. (would that owe me a nomnination?)Gravy a LIHOP?! Gravy call an ambulance from Bellevue for our psychotic friend :)

[Cl1mh4224rd]

And yes, you are a very very subtle LIHOP, even though you don't know it yet.
busherie's a soul reader! He knows what men believe, even if they themselves don't!

[Gravy]

Wow, bad memory, it was fleischer, telling "don't say anything yet"

In the back of the room, Press Secretary Ari Fleischer catches Bush’s eye and holds up a pad of paper for him to read, with “DON’ T SAY ANYTHING YET” written on it in big block letters. [Washington Times, 10/7/2002 (http://web.archive.org/web/20021007213015/http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021007-85016651.htm)] (Note that three articles claim that Bush leaves the classroom at 9:12 a.m.) [New York Times, 9/16/2001 (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/16/national/16VERO.html); Daily Telegraph, 12/16/2001 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/16/wbush16.xml); Daily Mail, 9/8/2002] However, a videotape of the event lasts for “at least seven additional minutes” and ends before Bush leaves.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=classroom&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=Go

Sorry about that.

But it's roughly the same idea.The other cue card said "The Mineta Protocol is in Effect."

[Gravy]

that's one point for you.

I'm afraid that's the only one.Because you simply ignore my points. Why? How about addressing my posts 78 and 84? Do I make valid points or not?

[gumboot]

Saudi Arabia, a country where Al Qaida got its leader and many operatives from. Is it a friendly country? Officially yes, but come on, don't think the US administration are stupids.



Actually I think you'll find many people here do think the US Administration are "stupids".

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

We really need to teach those Consular folks in Saudi Arabia to read properly. One glance at the terrorists' application form and the entire plot would have come unravelled:

NAME: Saeed Al-Ghamdi

NATIONALITY: Saudi

AGE: 26

GENDER: Male

RELIGION: Radical Islamic Extremism

OCCUPATION: International Terrorist

REASON FOR STAY IN USA: Martyr terrorist attack

LENGTH OF STAY: Indefinately

-Gumboot

[Babbylonian]

This thread is hilarious. The program has gone from being a suspicious coincidence to being the result of government stupidity. Maybe, if we're lucky, tomorrow it will go back to what it really was: An attempt to lighten the direct load on US Government offices and (as explained by ~enigma~) an effort to reduce potential civilian casualties if said offices were attacked.

The more I read and think about the program, the less suspicious, and the less "dangerous," it seems. The only difference between getting the visa from one of the approved travel agencies and the US Consulate or Embassy is that an American citizen doesn't necessarily eyeball the person applying - unless our State Department employees are blessed with psychic powers, they'd be no more likely to deny a visa application at their office than they would a visa application submitted remotely. And, heck, said visa recipients would still have had to present their documents to US Customs personnel upon arrival to the US.

[busherie]

This thread is hilarious. The program has gone from being a suspicious coincidence to being the result of government stupidity. Maybe, if we're lucky, tomorrow it will go back to what it really was: An attempt to lighten the direct load on US Government offices and (as explained by ~enigma~) an effort to reduce potential civilian casualties if said offices were attacked.

The more I read and think about the program, the less suspicious, and the less "dangerous," it seems. The only difference between getting the visa from one of the approved travel agencies and the US Consulate or Embassy is that an American citizen doesn't necessarily eyeball the person applying - unless our State Department employees are blessed with psychic powers, they'd be no more likely to deny a visa application at their office than they would a visa application submitted remotely. And, heck, said visa recipients would still have had to present their documents to US Customs personnel upon arrival to the US.

You are out of your mind.

The only other solution for this program to have been implemented in May 2001 in Saudi Arabia IS stupidity.

The head of visas was fired! Because normal people are not so blind as to ignore this program was "terrorist wanted" ad.

As long as no proog of govenment pushing for the program, VEP will remain as a big stupidity well used by the terrorists.

Busherie

PS: gravy i've considered your remarks. It's true it might well have been a mistake, people either didnt't know there was "off the charts" terrorists threats, or thought it was risk they were willing to take just to shortel the queues.

[asmodean]

if you think it is, then you are just voluntarily ignoring reality. Step away from your deeply entranched beliefs: consider this program, consider the country, consider the context, is it REALLY just a coincidence?


I think that if I where an evil gubmint mastermind wanting some terrorist to get into the country, the *last* thing I'd do would be to enable a program as Visa Express to facilitate that. Something a little more subtle, and non-public would be in order I think...

I guess that's why i failed Evil Overlord-ing 101...

[JimBenArm]

I think that if I where an evil gubmint mastermind wanting some terrorist to get into the country, the *last* thing I'd do would be to enable a program as Visa Express to facilitate that. Something a little more subtle, and non-public would be in order I think...

I guess that's why i failed Evil Overlord-ing 101...
But then how could we leave obvious clues for pagan and busherie to find, so they can solve the mystery before a half-hour is over?

[asmodean]

But then how could we leave obvious clues for pagan and busherie to find, so they can solve the mystery before a half-hour is over?

Dang! you're right of course. I better start thinking about these things or I will never be allowed to start on Advanced Evil Overlord-ing.

[~enigma~]

You are out of your mind.

But you don't even have a mind...

[busherie]

I think that if I where an evil gubmint mastermind wanting some terrorist to get into the country, the *last* thing I'd do would be to enable a program as Visa Express to facilitate that. Something a little more subtle, and non-public would be in order I think...

I guess that's why i failed Evil Overlord-ing 101...


good lord, plz think for just a second.

let's assume this was not a coincidence, it was clear the terrorists's names would be known. And therefore we would have known HOW they entered the US. No doubt they all entered using proper visas.

So why not use a secret system to facilitate their arrival?

Well, because using something secret that would be a lot more "visible" in the end than a casual visa express program that looked casual (even though such a program for a country known for its terrorsit activities, in a context where the threat was off the charts might ring a bell...)

But I as I find out, it's just another coincidence for you.

[~enigma~]

good lord, plz think for just a second.

let's assume this was not a coincidence, it was clear the terrorists's names would be known. And therefore we would have known HOW they entered the US. No doubt they all entered using proper visas.

So why not use a secret system to facilitate their arrival?

Well, because using something secret that would be a lot more "visible" in the end than a casual visa express program that looked casual (even though such a program for a country known for its terrorsit activities, in a context where the threat was off the charts might ring a bell...)

But I as I find out, it's just another coincidence for you.
woo 101 was good to you huh doughboy bushbot.

[busherie]

woo 101 was good to you huh doughboy bushbot.
Wao, my english is not good, but yours, wao... you suck

Busherie

[~enigma~]

Wao, my english is not good, but yours, wao... you suck

BusherieWhat was wrong with my english as[rule8]le?

[Gravy]

You are out of your mind.

The only other solution for this program to have been implemented in May 2001 in Saudi Arabia IS stupidity.

The head of visas was fired! Because normal people are not so blind as to ignore this program was "terrorist wanted" ad.

As long as no proog of govenment pushing for the program, VEP will remain as a big stupidity well used by the terrorists.

Busherie

PS: gravy i've considered your remarks. It's true it might well have been a mistake, people either didnt't know there was "off the charts" terrorists threats, or thought it was risk they were willing to take just to shortel the queues.Then answer this: which terrorists would have been prevented from entering the U.S. had the express program not existed?

[T.A.M.]

Mark:

Have you given any serious thought to (A)compiling all the research you have done into a Book, or (B) Approaching Popular Mechanics to publish your work as a follow up to their original debunking?

Honest question.

TAM:)

[Gravy]

Mark:

Have you given any serious thought to (A)compiling all the research you have done into a Book, or (B) Approaching Popular Mechanics to publish your work as a follow up to their original debunking?

Honest question.

TAM:)I haven't. I don't think I have much that's original to add. I don't consider myself a researcher at all. I just read the same material that's available to anyone. To me, research involves getting into primary sources, interviewing witnesses and investigators, etc. For instance, Mike Williams has done lots of work on FOIA requests. That's research, and it's a slog. That's the work the 9/11 deniers aren't willing to do.

My position is that I'd better have a compelling reason to try to re-involve witnesses, victims, and investigators in this business. They have better things to do. Most conspiracist claims are so easily debunked that there's no reason to do that.

The conspiracists, on the other hand, are trying to prove an earthshaking claim. Yet they aren't willing to go to the primary sources. That says everything you need to know about their commitment to the truth.

I will have a website up shortly with my WTC 7 paper, shorter things I've written that get requested fairly often (many of them posts here), and a few thousand categorized links. I think it will be a useful resource. Actually, I'd better get to that while I have the time today! :)

[T.A.M.]

I see your points. The reason I ask, however, was spawned by the comment someone made of getting you to be on "The Daily Show". I know it would be a long shot, and so I thought well who does stewart often bring on his show...authors of a book he has read.

I eagerly await the completion of your website. It will no doubt be an invaluable tool in the war on "truth terra".

TAM:)

[asmodean]

good lord, plz think for just a second.


What can I say: I have.


let's assume this was not a coincidence, it was clear the terrorists's names would be known. And therefore we would have known HOW they entered the US. No doubt they all entered using proper visas.

So why not use a secret system to facilitate their arrival?


Who said anything about a secret system?


Well, because using something secret that would be a lot more "visible" in the end than a casual visa express program that looked casual (even though such a program for a country known for its terrorsit activities, in a context where the threat was off the charts might ring a bell...)

But I as I find out, it's just another coincidence for you.

Yep. Indeed. If you want to have terrorists enter the country and do their evil actions without rousing suspiscions about your involement you do *not* set something up that is, and I quote you "Because normal people are not so blind as to ignore this program was "terrorist wanted" ad."

ETA:The easiest thing to do, obviously is: nothing, since 16/19 hijacekrs got in *without* using the fast-track system