Interesting JE Hits....

[Clancie]

Some people ask here, "So...what kind of 'hits' impress you?"

I thought it would be interesting for those who watch CO to have a thread where we can jot them down from time to time, just to give some examples.

Here are two (separate posts--so please give me a minute for the second one, Claus, before responding to this one. :rolleyes: ).

This is from Tuesday's CO, second half hour. JE was reading a well groomed elderly, white-haired woman and her middle aged daughter in the audience. He said he had the older man, which they identified as grandpa. So far, nothing much....

JE: Did someone work with tools?
(I'm obviously thinking, "Nothing special there.")

Elderly woman: Yes, he did.

JE (to elderly woman): And did you...(puzzled look on his face)....cut down a tree?

The daughter turns to her mother with a bemused smile, like, "What a silly thing for him to say!"

Elderly woman: Yes.

Daughter looks at her, totally surprised.

JE: I mean, did you cut down a tree. That you did it yourself. Not that you hired someone to cut it down. Because that's what I'm getting, that you did it yourself.

Elderly woman: (getting a little impatient). Yes. I couldn't afford to hire someone so I just went out and cut it down myself.
No big message other than, "Here's a unique thing this sitter did", but its the kind of hit that I find interesting. This is because, IMO, it does not conform to cold reading (other than the claim its a "lucky guess").

And not researched either.

Next example...

[TLN]

Originally posted by Clancie
This is because, IMO, it does not conform to cold reading (other than the claim its a "lucky guess").

And not researched either.

But how do we know it wasn't either a lucky guess or researched?

[Clancie]

This was the next part with these same two sitters.


JE: Do you have a chalice?

Elderly woman: "Chalice?"

JE: Yes. Do you have a chalice that has his name on it. (gestures the height with his hands).

Elderly woman and daughter don't hear or don't understand.

JE: I'm being shown a chalice, you know, a silver chalice, a cup.

Elderly woman: Oh! A kiddush cup!

Daughter: Yes, we have his kiddush cup.

JE: Because he's telling me its got his name on it.

This part does not appear to be validated.

Post analysis:

Daughter to mother: Oh, I forgot that I'd had Evan's name (her son's) engraved on it and he was named after grandpa.

Elderly woman: Oh! That's a good one.

What interested me about this was that a chalice and a kiddush cup are basically the same thing. JE was shown a Roman Catholic image to pass on to two Jewish sitters, with neither of them obviously being very familiar with the other's cultural frame of reference.

The kiddush cup with the engraved name of the deceased turned out to be a good validation for them.

[arcticpenguin]

I don't care how high you pile the anecdotes. They still do not constitute evidence.

Did you notice, at the start of the episode in which these appeared, the disclaimer that the show was for entertainment purposes only?

Of course you know that the shows are edited. I assume you would not try to pass off anything that occurs there as happening under controlled conditions?

You have no way of verifying that JE did not research these subjects, either before they entered the studio, or while they were in the studio with the microphones on.

[renata]

Two things
I have yet to meet a family that identifies itself as ethnically Jewish that does not have a kiddush cup. I am an atheist and I have an kiddush cup. Mine is not engraved- my parents' kiddush cup is, with name of my great grandfather. I do not know how common it is to engrave them.

I am afraid I am not impressed by CO readings and these hits. The only pure readings that can be analyzed with any degree of certainty that there is no editing or trickery are Larry King live readings.

Why is there never a good hit like that on those readings? Why do most of them fail miserably, and invoke the cold reading type tricks like "does August mean anything", etc.

Clancie, can you explain the big difference in reading quality between LKL and CO?

[Clancie]

AP, These are offered as examples of hits I found interesting. I don't present them as anything other than anecdotal. We all know editing is an issue, but I don't see how it is a relevant factor here.

Renata,
I have seen JE get some good hits on LKL, but I admit he's inconsistent. Whether that is because LK's abrupt manner with JE and the callers negatively impacts on a reading, the -very- short time limit LK gives to each one is a problem (since usually JE works up to it), there are audio problems (as in the last ones in Sept), or because its all guesswork on JE's part, I really don't know. I've seen JE do much better in other live formats, so I tend to think it's because LK is too abrupt and doesn't have patience for readings to develop. (I realize "develop = cold read" to some, but that isn't what it means to me).

And the point about the cup was he was describing a chalice to them, which was his referent, not theirs. He didn't know they weren't Catholic, yet it was still a good validation for them.

Do most Protestants usually have a similar kind of silver cup in their homes? Maybe Episcopalians, but I wouldn't think it was a common thing.

And JE saw it engraved, with the particular deceased's name on it--not some other relative--which was true.

[TLN]

Originally posted by TLN
But how do we know it wasn't either a lucky guess or researched?

[Clancie]

TLN,

How would you research that the elderly woman had cut down her tree years ago?

Or that the daughter had a kiddush cup with the grandfather's name engraved on it? Do you think, like Randi, JE sent someone to the daughter's home to look around? Even in that improbable scenario, how would someone know whose name was engraved on it?

As for guesswork...we don't know. Do they look like good guesses to you?

[Dragon]

JE: Did someone work with tools?
(I'm obviously thinking, "Nothing special there.")

You're right, nothing special.

Elderly woman: Yes, he did.

JE (to elderly woman): And did you...(puzzled look on his face)....cut down a tree?

The "puzzled look" sounds like part of JE's technique to get the subject to answer his question and feed back some more information.

The daughter turns to her mother with a bemused smile, like, "What a silly thing for him to say!"

Elderly woman: Yes.

Daughter looks at her, totally surprised.

Bingo! What's silly about cutting down a tree? Unless an elderly woman does it herself?

JE: I mean, did you cut down a tree. That you did it yourself. Not that you hired someone to cut it down. Because that's what I'm getting, that you did it yourself.

Elderly woman: (getting a little impatient). Yes. I couldn't afford to hire someone so I just went out and cut it down myself.

So, Clancie, what if the lady and her daughter hadn't reacted in quite that way the the first question about the tree and it turned out that someone else had cut it down for her? I think JE would still have made it sound like a hit - not so impressive because more mundane - but still a hit. Good example of warm reading.

[renata]

Really? Good hits in LKL? I have not seen many. And if he knows Larry King will impact negatively, why does he do it? he has been on the show 4 times, three times all by himself and once with other mediums.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0302/28/lkl.00.html
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/06/lkl.00.html
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/10/lkl.00.html

Please read them over. The readings are appallingly bad.

How about we analyze them, instead.

CALLER: Yes, I would like to ask John what he can tell me about my father or my grandfather or even my grandmother who passed away.
EDWARD: What's your first name?
CALLER: My first name is Lisa.
EDWARD: Lisa, besides the people that you talked about, if -- I want to let you know that I might not be able to connect with them. I might connect with other people. If you again just say yes or no, don't say anything else.
The first thing to tell you is -- I know didn't you ask about this -- but they tell me to acknowledge a female figure that I would see as being like a contemporary to you, whether it be like a sister or a cousin but it's a female person that passed. I'm seeing this as being somebody who has got another name like yours, there has got to be another L-connection that comes up round you, that has got to be L- tied to this. I feel that this person passes either from breast cancer or a female type of cancer in some way.
OK, that's No. 1. That's the first thing I'm being shown. I know this would be like a cousin on your dad's side of the family, or a cousin through the male, like your husband's side of the family. But there is a connection through a male from what are they showing me. And they're also talking about somebody who would be known as either Richard or Rich, because a big R-connection that comes up connected to you. Do you understand that? Where is the August connection for you? Somebody passed in August?
CALLER: August? No.
EDWARD: There is. There's either an anniversary on the eighth of a month or an anniversary in the eight month, August. But there is an eight connection, from what are they showing me.
CALLER: Eight connection.
EDWARD: Is there a father-in-law also who has passed?
CALLER: No.
EDWARD: Then you've got another father figure besides yours.
CALLER: We do, OK.
EDWARD: There's like another male figure that I would see as being above you, like a father, whether it be an uncle. It's not a grandfather, it's like a father figure. There is an eight-connection, like the eighth month August or the eighth of a month. There's a connection to a young female figure to your side that I would see as being like a sister, or a friend that is passed from female a female type of cancer. That is what's coming through to me.
KING: Does any of that ring a bell?
CALLER: No. I don't know.
EDWARD: Write it down exactly as I said it.

Example from the 9/10/01 reading.
It includes an ambigious 8 connection and an instruction to write things down after the caller does not get a single hit.

Would you like to take a crack at analyzing the readings from an entire show? Count hits, misses and items that look like cold reading tricks ( like the number 8 connection above). Please do not take one reading that is better than others- let's just analyze one show, beginning to end.

[CFLarsen]

Clancie,

We have to dismiss this reading, for the following reasons:


This is not a reading: There is no spirit communication - we don't know if "grandpa" is dead or alive.
According to you, with no spirit communication, it isn't a reading.
(You used this excuse to dismiss Neill's reading, so why not this one?)

This is not the whole reading.
According to you, it has to be the whole reading.
(You used this excuse with Ian Rowland's cold-reading example, so why not this one?)

There were no men among the sitters.
According to you, there has to be men, otherwise this is a serious problem.
(You used this excuse with Shermer's cold-reading example, so why not this one?)

This is a transcript.
According to you, we cannot trust transcripts.
(You used this excuse to deny us a transcript of your own reading with Brian Hurst, so why not this one?)


These are all your reasons for not accepting a reading. Would you care to comment on why we should view this reading any different?

Also:


We don't know when the tree-felling happened. It could have happened in her early years, when she was stronger.
Cutting down a tree is hardly "unique", even for a woman.
We have to question the validity of the "chalice/kiddush cup w/engraving", because the elderly woman clearly remembers she has a cup, but not that it was engraved.
We also have to ask if either of the sitters wore any Jewish jewelry, e.g. a David's star. This would make the whole "hit" highly questionable.

[Denise]

Neither of these seem to be impressive hits to me. I'm sure my grandmother has cut down a tree in her time, as have many other elderly women. Doing such things is usually part of life on the farm back in the day. As far as the Chalice thing goes... It's not unheard of for people to give gifts at weddings and births etc of cups with people's names engraved on them. In fact, I think it's quite common.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Clancie
TLN,

How would you research that the elderly woman had cut down her tree years ago?

Or that the daughter had a kiddush cup with the grandfather's name engraved on it? Do you think, like Randi, JE sent someone to the daughter's home to look around? Even in that improbable scenario, how would someone know whose name was engraved on it?

As for guesswork...we don't know. Do they look like good guesses to you?
1) If you knew their name and address (i.e. they had advance tickets) you could try searching local newspapers for anything. Maybe the woman got cited for cutting a tree without a permit, or maybe it fell on the neighbor's house. You don't know, do you?

The clip you presented did not show the JE provided the name which appeared on the cup. You are either leaving out important info, or maybe you have fallen for the classic cold reading ploy of getting the readee to supply info, which they then attribute to the reader.

Also, see the mention about microphones being on before a taping.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Clancie
How would you research that the elderly woman had cut down her tree years ago?

Where, in the transcript, does it say this? Surely, you didn't provide a partial transcript, did you?

Originally posted by Clancie
Or that the daughter had a kiddush cup with the grandfather's name engraved on it? Do you think, like Randi, JE sent someone to the daughter's home to look around? Even in that improbable scenario, how would someone know whose name was engraved on it?

Do you know for certain that the sitters did not give away that they were Jewish?

[Starrman]

You actually give it away as cold reading before the reading starts:

He said he had the older man, which they identified as grandpa

He said "older man" does anybody on Earth not know an older man who has died?

The only hit is you cut down a tree - so have a bajillion other people in the world. I'm sorry, but I do not consider this to be unique to this sitter. Not even close.

And he asked did 'you' cut down a tree - to which she answered 'yes'. Only then, after she confirms it, does JE say "Because that's what I'm getting, that you did it yourself."

1) JE asks a question
2) The sitter answers
3) JE repeats his confirmed question in the form of a statement

How is that not like cold reading?

This is essentially what you are saying: Yes, the most likely explanation is that JE was talking to her dead grandfather and he told him to tell her that she cut a tree down by herself.

[renata]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


We don't know when the tree-felling happened. It could have happened in her early years, when she was stronger.
Cutting down a tree is hardly "unique", even for a woman.
We have to question the validity of the "chalice/kiddush cup w/engraving", because the elderly woman clearly remembers she has a cup, but not that it was engraved.
We also have to ask if either of the sitters wore any Jewish jewelry, e.g. a David's star. This would make the whole "hit" highly questionable.


And if JE is a cold reader, how easily could he have moved to prune out a bush? Or NOT pruning a bush? Or "Why am I seeing a joke about a tree cutting?"; "Did you nag your husband to cut down a tree?"; "Did your children fall from a tree and you wanted to cut it down?" etc.

Psst- Claus- not David's star- "Star of David" aka "Magen David". If this reading was performed in Long Island, which has a huge Jewish community, it was not unreasonable to guess the ethnicity. If JE saw some Jewelry, like a Magen David, which is very common to wear, or some other identifiable Jewelry (like the hand, for example) that could have tipped him off. Of course, JE did not identify it as a kiddush cup, the sitters did. Is it common for non Jews to have a silver cup? A kiddush cup is bascially a ceremonial silver wine glass.

[Brown]

In my family, I can immediately name three elderly women who I know have cut down trees. All three of them are unafraid of outdoor labor, and do not consider it "man's work."

In the case of one of the women, she cut down a tree during the Great Depression. That was a time when money was scarce, and few people had money to hire anyone to do anything.

In the case of another lady, she cut down a small tree in her back yard after it had been destroyed by lightning.

These women weren't lumberjacks; they basically just did their own landscaping.

Consequently, the "cut down a tree" guess doesn't seem to me to be all that remarkable.

[fsol]

Dragon: if you hadn't said it I was about to.

[LTC8K6]

Why wouldn't the dead relative know the proper term?

If "they" can send the image of a kiddush cup, then they can send the image of the words "kiddush cup" as well.

If "they" can tell JE that "it's got his name on it", then why can't they tell him the proper name of the cup and the name of the person.

This makes no sense to me.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by renata
Psst- Claus- not David's star- "Star of David"

It's called "David's Star" in Danish! :p (farts in your general direction)

Originally posted by renata
aka "Magen David".

...which, in Danish, actually means "the sexual partner of David" (if David was an animal). Had it been an "å", it would have been "Mågen David", "David the Seagull".

Yes, Danish is a strange language.... :D

Carry on.

Originally posted by renata
If this reading was performed in Long Island, which has a huge Jewish community, it was not unreasonable to guess the ethnicity.

Far from it. There are over one million Jews in New York.

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by Clancie
This was the next part with these same two sitters.

. . .

Daughter: Yes, we have his kiddush cup.

JE: Because he's telling me its got his name on it.

. . .

The kiddush cup with the engraved name of the deceased turned out to be a good validation for them.


AAARGH!! He could see the cup but he couldn't see the d*mned name engraved on the cup?!? Instead the "grandpa" had to tell him the name was on the cup. And of course the "grandpa" didn't/couldn't tell JE his own name?!?

This is a perfect example of why many of us don't believe this nonsense.

[renata]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

It's called "David's Star" in Danish! :p (farts in your general direction)

...which, in Danish, actually means "the sexual partner of David" (if David was an animal). Had it been an "å", it would have been "Mågen David", "David the Seagull".

Yes, Danish is a strange language.... :D

Carry on.


Damn Danes! Rude, smartass pervert bastards....




Far from it. There are over one million Jews in New York.

Yeah, we are everywhere.....:)

1. Did JE grow up in NY? He could have been familiar with Jewish traditions and accessories
2. He did not actually guess it was Jewish, the sitters told them that. Do Catholics or any other Christians use a similar type item?




I see Clancie has received a lot of responses here. It looks the questions are going several directions at once. I suggest a kind soul with extra time on his hands collate the questions by topic? Claus? :) It might be easier for her to address it that way, instead of each individual poster. And I am looking forward to her commentary, especially on LKL readings.

[c0rbin]

We'll be right back after these messages...

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by renata

2. He did not actually guess it was Jewish, the sitters told them that. Do Catholics or any other Christians use a similar type item?

Catholics do not.

[Starrman]

Seriously, Clancie - you really think these hits are not like cold reading?

You really think the BEST possible explanation for these exchanges between human beings, taped for and broadcast on the sci-fi channel, is that one or more of the human beings is dead?

:confused:

[Starrman]

Catholics do not.

They are not used in the home, but are used for mass and communion.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by renata
Damn Danes! Rude, smartass pervert bastards....

'ey!!

Originally posted by renata
1. Did JE grow up in NY? He could have been familiar with Jewish traditions and accessories

Sit down. This is not going to be pretty.

Guess what?

Glen Cove was among the first settlements to have Jewish communities:

"Although far apart, Sag Harbor and Glen Cove both had early Jewish communities "
....
"At about the same time at another Long Island port to the west, Jewish settlers in Glen Cove worked as peddlers and shopkeepers in the growing city. They held services in private homes for 20 years and, in 1897, founded Tifereth Israel, Nassau's first synagogue and Long Island's oldest continually operating, year-round congregation. Like many Jewish and Christian congregations on Long Island, both congregations were founded by European immigrants drawn here by the prospect of jobs. Although there were several other early Jewish communities on Long Island, including Lindenhurst and Setauket, the great wave of Jewish immigration did not occur until well after the turn of the century. "
Long Island's Founding Jews (http://www.newsday.com/extras/lihistory/6/hs629a.htm)

and

"This special section tells the story of Long Island's Jewish history, from early settlers to the peddlers who walked from New York City with packs on their backs in the 1800s to people who are an integral part of the Island's culture and commerce today."
LI History (http://www.newsday.com/extras/lihistory/ejewish/about.htm)

Guess what?

JE was born October 19, 1969, in Glen Cove and went to Glen Cove High School.

Conclusion:

I'd say it was pretty darn impossible for JE to grow up in Glen Cove and not learn a thing or two about Jewish customs.

Originally posted by renata
I see Clancie has received a lot of responses here. It looks the questions are going several directions at once. I suggest a kind soul with extra time on his hands collate the questions by topic? Claus? :)

Of course! :)

Originally posted by renata
It might be easier for her to address it that way, instead of each individual poster. And I am looking forward to her commentary, especially on LKL readings.

Me too. In the meantime, for the people:

11 Techniques to Talk to the Dead, Part II (http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/jelkl.htm), by Paul Sandoval

The article deals with JE's readings on Larry King. Very interesting stuff.

[Dallin]

Originally posted by renata

1. Did JE grow up in NY? He could have been familiar with Jewish traditions and accessories
2. He did not actually guess it was Jewish, the sitters told them that. Do Catholics or any other Christians use a similar type item?



Renata,

True, JE simply asked about a cup/chalice, but leaves it open for interpretation. Possible connections are:

- A chalice used for mass
- An engraved cup won at a competition or an award of some sort
- A momento of a wedding, anniversary, etc
- An engraved gift from a loved one
- A kiddush cup

Etc etc. While JE certainly could have had a hunch that the sitters were Jewish and threw the words out hoping they would reply with 'kiddush cup', at worst he left himself some legroom in case they came up with a different example of an engraved cup. At best he allowed the sitter to supply valuable information about themselves, eg they are Jewish, the specific nature of the cup... also interesting that he doesn't even bring up the engraving until after the sitters confirmed they owned the cup.

In fact, knowing little about the Jewish religion, I just looked up what a kiddush cup is, and here is the definition i found...

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/art_context/tkidd.htm

which includes the quote


Often people's names or biblical passages are inscribed on cups.


So, he learned from the sitter that they owned a kiddush cup from the departed; I would think it a safe guess to throw out that his name was engraved on it. It sounds to me like he was playing the numbers.

[Mr. Skinny]

Just to support the idea that it's not such a special hit, I've cut down a tree, my mother has cut down a tree, my dad has cut down a tree, my brother-in-law has cut down a tree, and two of my best friends have cut down trees.

I don't see it as being so special.

[tracer]

Originally posted by Starrman
[Among Catholics, silver chalices] are not used in the home, but are used for mass and communion.
Good point -- look at the exact wording of the exchange:


JE: "I'm being shown a chalice, you know, a silver chalice, a cup."
Elderly woman: "Oh! A kiddush cup!"
Daughter: "Yes, we have his kiddush cup."
JE: "Because he's telling me its got his name on it."


Notice that JE didn't say anything about the cup being engraved until after the Elderly woman had told him it was a Kiddush cup. If the Elderly woman had instead said "Oh! A communion cup!", then JE still would have gotten to count his chalice question as a "hit", and would not have gone on to ask about the cup being engraved. JE only suggested that anyone's name was engraved on the cup after the woman told him it was a Kiddush cup, which are items known to be engraved with people's names.

[renata]

Originally posted by tracer


Notice that JE didn't say anything about the cup being engraved until after the Elderly woman had told him it was a Kiddush cup. If the Elderly woman had instead said "Oh! A communion cup!", then JE still would have gotten to count his chalice question as a "hit", and would not have gone on to ask about the cup being engraved. JE only suggested that anyone's name was engraved on the cup after the woman told him it was a Kiddush cup, which are items known to be engraved with people's names.

That is exactly correct. And as Dallin pointed out, it could have been anything else.

JE: "I'm being shown a chalice, you know, a silver chalice, a cup."
Elderly woman: "Oh! My grandson's spelling bee trophy!"
JE: "Because he's telling me he is very proud of the boy."

JE: "I'm being shown a chalice, you know, a silver chalice, a cup."
Elderly woman: "Oh! My poodle's best in show award!"
JE: "Because he's telling me you trained the puppy together."

JE: "I'm being shown a chalice, you know, a silver chalice, a cup."
Elderly woman: "Oh! My silver wedding anniversary gift!"
JE: "Because he's telling it was very meaningful, a symbol of how much he loved you."




etc, etc.

[Starrman]

JE only suggested that anyone's name was engraved on the cup after the woman told him it was a Kiddush cup, which are items known to be engraved with people's names.

Actually, he does says earlier in the reading "Do you have a chalice that has his name on it. (gestures the height with his hands)."

So in all fairness, he did say there was a name on it right from the beginning.

[tracer]

Starrman: D'OH! You're absolutely right. I completely missed that.

I hereby formally apologize to John Edwards for assuming that he could have made the silver chalice out to be something that didn't have somebody's name on it. John Edwards was very brave and took the great risk of assuming the Elderly woman was probably Jewish and would therefore have a Kiddush cup, when he made up that question.

[renata]

Originally posted by Starrman


Actually, he does says earlier in the reading "Do you have a chalice that has his name on it. (gestures the height with his hands)."

So in all fairness, he did say there was a name on it right from the beginning.


You are correct. So it rules out the poodle, but not a gift or trophy- for him. Also, if there had been a name of a relative, I am sure it would have been stretched to fit. (Recall the Schrunchie Snuggle bear stretch)

[Starrman]

You are correct. So it rules out the poodle, but not a gift or trophy- for him. Also, if there had been a name of a relative, I am sure it would have been stretched to fit. (Recall the Schrunchie Snuggle bear stretch)

This is exactly why this is cold reading. I've seen him throw darts like this before and miss, and just move on to something completely different. The only reason this stands out is because his dart hit something.

He doesn't confirm what the target was until after the sitter verifies it. He throws the dart, and then draws the target - isn't his whole game the Texas sharpshooter's fallacy?

[neofight]

Originally posted by Starrman


Actually, he does says earlier in the reading "Do you have a chalice that has his name on it. (gestures the height with his hands)."

So in all fairness, he did say there was a name on it right from the beginning.

Not only that, Starrman, but chalices are very often donated to the Church as a memorial to someone who has died. They are also given as gifts by family/friends to newly ordained priests, and more often than not, they are engraved.

I think Clancie was using this example to demonstrate how John will get a certain symbol, the chalice, which is within his frame of reference, being a Catholic, and the sitter then can translate that into what it means for them.

We believe that the frequency with which these hits are accurate, or meaningful to the sitter, would prove to be consistently higher than the frequency that a cold-reader might attain.

Unfortunately, I am not aware of any cold-readers who are interested in putting this theory to the test. :( ......neo

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by neofight

We believe that the frequency with which these hits are accurate, or meaningful to the sitter, would prove to be consistently higher than the frequency that a cold-reader might attain.

What can you say about the frequency when the broadcast in question was not controlled and was edited? It is just another anecdote.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by neofight
Unfortunately, I am not aware of any cold-readers who are interested in putting this theory to the test. :( ......neo

I am. Test me, neo. How do you suggest we approach this? You can open a new thread for this.

[Starrman]

which is within his frame of reference, being a Catholic, and the sitter then can translate that into what it means for them.

So it is up to the sitter. And you still maintain that the BEST explanation for all of this is that JE is in contact with the dead? :confused:

Ian Rowland (a cold reader) brought a woman to tears with a reading about an out of date calendar on Prime Time live. This is a great example of a cold reader getting a hit that is not quite accurate (Rowland said the deceased had made it for her - but it was not) and the sitter translating into something meaninful.

We believe that the frequency with which these hits are accurate, or meaningful to the sitter, would prove to be consistently higher than the frequency that a cold-reader might attain.

Why can't this be explaied as JE being the BEST cold reader out there? Michael Jordan's lifetime statistics are much better than most basketball players, but they are all STILL playing basketball.

[neofight]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

What can you say about the frequency when the broadcast in question was not controlled and was edited? It is just another anecdote.

Yes. Just like the *mediumship* demonstration done by Ian Rowland on ABC's Primetime Halloween Special that impressed so many of you skeptics, except so much better than that measley 90 seconds of heavily edited tape. :D

I've seen JE do readings for hours straight, and pass on some really meaningful information to the sitters. I'd pay good money to see the same sort of lengthy demonstration done by someone like Ian.......neo

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by neofight
We believe that the frequency with which these hits are accurate, or meaningful to the sitter, would prove to be consistently higher than the frequency that a cold-reader might attain.

It makes absolutely no sense to talk about "frequency", when nobody - not even you - have any idea how often hits occur.

Establish that first, neo. Then, we can talk about what a cold-reader needs to be able to copy.

[neofight]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


I am. Test me, neo. How do you suggest we approach this? You can open a new thread for this.

Really? Will you be in New York in September? After the book-signing, you can meet us all across the street for some adult beverages, and give it your best shot. :D ......neo

[renata]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


It makes absolutely no sense to talk about "frequency", when nobody - not even you - have any idea how often hits occur.

Establish that first, neo. Then, we can talk about what a cold-reader needs to be able to copy.

Well, there is such a frequency- check the LKL transcripts I posted

It will be a lot of work, but I think it will be worthwhile to tally guesses, hits and misses and comment on the technique. To date, this is the only unedited sample of his performance.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by neofight

I've seen JE do readings for hours straight, and pass on some really meaningful information to the sitters.
How sad that you don't have any unedited transcripts. :v:

[GroundStrength]

I have been doing quite a bit of cold reading lately and I always open up with a bit of psychometry (take a ring or other item) then say

"I feel that there is an accident involving water in your past'"

The sitter always fits this prediction to themselves and then later stretches it to something like, "He must be psychic otherwise, How did he know I was in a boating accident"

These hits are "interesting" if by interesting you mean Wild guesses that the sitter stretches to fit themselves.

The chalice is a two way out symbol. (Claus, sorry about not getting you the paper yet, my wife has take very ill) . In my experience of late people get anrgy with me when I dispel their belief that I am psychic.

I'm going to have to try the "chalice" tonight.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by neofight


Really? Will you be in New York in September? After the book-signing, you can meet us all across the street for some adult beverages, and give it your best shot. :D ......neo

Please open a new thread, so we can discuss this.

[Lord Kenneth]

Oh my goodness! Asking an elderly woman if she has every cut down a tree! If she hadn't (said no), JE could have just asked if she had every had a tree cut down (didn't mean she did it herself).

Gee, it's a good thing the spirits are keeping track of who cuts down trees!



:rolleyes:

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by Clancie
This was the next part with these same two sitters.



What interested me about this was that a chalice and a kiddush cup are basically the same thing. JE was shown a Roman Catholic image to pass on to two Jewish sitters, with neither of them obviously being very familiar with the other's cultural frame of reference.

The kiddush cup with the engraved name of the deceased turned out to be a good validation for them.

Is that rare or highly unlikely for Jews to do?

[Starrman]

Yes. Just like the *mediumship* demonstration done by Ian Rowland on ABC's Primetime Halloween Special that impressed so many of you skeptics, except so much better than that measley 90 seconds of heavily edited tape.

You were referring to the 'Chalice' reading, which is from JE's taped and edited TV show. I brought up an example of another taped and edited TV show that showed a cold reader doing the same thing.

Why is the chalice reading "how John will get a certain symbol, the chalice, which is within his frame of reference, being a Catholic, and the sitter then can translate that into what it means for them." But Rowland's reading so easily and sarcastically dismissed?

[voidx]

Posted by Neo:
We believe that the frequency with which these hits are accurate, or meaningful to the sitter, would prove to be consistently higher than the frequency that a cold-reader might attain.
Ok let's clarify. In the thread regarding michael shermers cold reading adventure. I also posed the question of why on LKL and other talk shows, in which these mediums have less control of their environment, yet quite consistently show poor performances, should be a rather sizable dent in their credibility. I was given the same excuse of poor audio quality, hurried and frenzied pace, etc. etc. to account for JE's poor performance. So I assume from this that it is being said that JE must have certain conditions in order to perform well and use his talent. Unfortunately it can be put just as valid, that when he cannot control his environment, his performance suffers. I still find this extremely telling.

Now the other thing that needs clarifying. Neo, you say here that the consistency being high is very important, and that itself is still open to debate, but in the other thread Clancie also stated that her belief in JE came from the idea that his hits were not like cold-reading. So I see a contradiction here. The readings listed here as examples are very easily demonstrable as cold-reading, one should not be able to deny that. Consistency, plus a charateristic in his hits that differentiates them from cold-reading would have to seem to be you're criteria for JE validation. Agreed?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Lord Kenneth said:Gee, it's a good thing the spirits are keeping track of who cuts down trees!
And you thought we have big databases.

By the way, while we're figuring out the probabilities for all these things, let's not forget the probability of a good hit by coincidence. That should be easy to calculate, no?

~~ Paul

[Thanz]

Claus -

Is it any wonder that Clancie finds you so annoying? She starts a thread that has the chance to be very interestign and informative, and you jump on her the first chance you get. I don't think that she was claiming that this reading proves anything about JE - just that it was the kind of hits that she finds interesting. Given that it is these hits that make her think there may be something to mediumship, I am very interested in what they are. Your list of reasons why we need to dismiss the reading is nothing more than bullying on your part.

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Clancie,

We have to dismiss this reading, for the following reasons:


This is not a reading: There is no spirit communication - we don't know if "grandpa" is dead or alive.
According to you, with no spirit communication, it isn't a reading.
(You used this excuse to dismiss Neill's reading, so why not this one?)
I think this is covered in the introduction. Besides, as you note in your second objection, it is not the whole transcript.

Anyway, who is Neill?

This is not the whole reading.
According to you, it has to be the whole reading.
(You used this excuse with Ian Rowland's cold-reading example, so why not this one?)
Apples and oranges. There is a difference between comparing readings and comparing hits.

There were no men among the sitters.
According to you, there has to be men, otherwise this is a serious problem.
(You used this excuse with Shermer's cold-reading example, so why not this one?)
Again, apples and oranges. Shermer did five different readings with different props, all on women. One reading is not the same as five. Again, irrelevant to a discussion of hits.

This is a transcript.
According to you, we cannot trust transcripts.
(You used this excuse to deny us a transcript of your own reading with Brian Hurst, so why not this one?)

Give me a break. She doesn't want to post her reading with Hurst - big deal. It has personal information in it. If she altered it, it wouldn't be a transcript, would it?

These are all your reasons for not accepting a reading. Would you care to comment on why we should view this reading any different?
Way to eliminate all context, Claus. Also, she is not asking you to accept the reading for anything. She is merely explaining the sort of hits that impress her.

Also:


We don't know when the tree-felling happened. It could have happened in her early years, when she was stronger.
Cutting down a tree is hardly "unique", even for a woman.
We have to question the validity of the "chalice/kiddush cup w/engraving", because the elderly woman clearly remembers she has a cup, but not that it was engraved.
We also have to ask if either of the sitters wore any Jewish jewelry, e.g. a David's star. This would make the whole "hit" highly questionable.

Finally, something worthwhile - an analysis of the "hits" themselves with some possible mundane explanations. However, the third point is incorrect - it was validated in the post reading interview.

Now, why couldn't you have just posted this without the attack in the first half? You know, discuss the actual substance?

[CFLarsen]

Thanz,

I don't see analyzing a transcript as "annoying", "jumping" on someone, "bullying" or as an "attack". I see it as a skeptical approach to a paranormal claim. As do many others, so it seems.

If you find a skeptical approach "bullying", then so be it. This is a skeptical board, and claims are dealt with in a skeptical manner. Curiously enough, I don't see you complaining about other skeptics on this thread. Do you have a personal problem with me? If so, please take it to another thread.

Neil (it should have been "Neil", not "Neill", my bad) is a cold-reader who once posted a cold-reading transcript on TVTalkshows. I challenged Clancie to see if she could point out what was different from a cold-reading transcript and a JE-transcript. She could not. All her points were invalid.

Although I appreciate your feedback, I nonetheless find it most appropriate to let Clancie have a chance to reply first. It is a transcript of her choice, and there have been many good posts about it.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Thanz
Claus -

Is it any wonder that Clancie finds you so annoying? She starts a thread that has the chance to be very interestign and informative, and you jump on her the first chance you get. I don't think that she was claiming that this reading proves anything about JE - just that it was the kind of hits that she finds interesting. Given that it is these hits that make her think there may be something to mediumship, I am very interested in what they are. Your list of reasons why we need to dismiss the reading is nothing more than bullying on your part.

As Claus points out, both Clancie and Neo discount cold readings for a variety of reasons, but do not discount "medium" readings for the very same reasons. If you finish this entire thread you will notice several occasions of this. If Clancie has been doing this in the past (I haven't been followoing all the related threads), then it is relevant. If it is unpleasant for Clancie, I see that as her own fault for being inconsistent.

[dingler44]

Originally posted by neofight
We believe that the frequency with which these hits are accurate, or meaningful to the sitter, would prove to be consistently higher than the frequency that a cold-reader might attain.

Unfortunately, I am not aware of any cold-readers who are interested in putting this theory to the test. :( ......neo

edited to remove everything - someone else had an almost identical post already! doh!

Starrman said

Why can't this be explaied as JE being the BEST cold reader out there? Michael Jordan's lifetime statistics are much better than most basketball players, but they are all STILL playing basketball.


I even used the Michael Jordan analogy too! This is quite a coincidence Starrman... are you sure you didn't communicate this idea to the spirit world and then somehow it was relayed to a spirit in my office who then mischievously planted the idea in my brain?

[Thanz]

[b]Claus (and AP)[b] -
Your analysis of the actual reading I liked. The various reasons why we should ignore it I didn't. I don't think that it was posted as proof that JE is a medium - rather, it was posted as an example of the hits that make Clancie think he may be a medium. See the difference?

Clancie is asked frequently why she thinks JE may be a medium. Her normal answer has to do with hits and special hits, and usually incorporates something to the effect that cold readers don't get the same frequency/quality of hits as JE.

I saw this thread as an opportunity to get at the first part of Clancie's thinking - what is so special about the hits that JE gets? I thought it would be good to analyze the hits themselves, to see if they really are special or mundane. The points in the first part of your post aren't really relevant to this. They are only relevant when we get to part 2 - comparing to cold reading transcripts.

I'd like to be able to focus on the first part. And no, you weren't the only one, but I did see you as the worst offender.

[arcticpenguin]

About the hits: I think taking them out of context has almost no value. It may tell us something about Clancie's thought processes, but it tells us nothing about JE's 'mediumship'. It is cherry-picking. It is counting the hits and forgetting the misses. Since the conditions were uncontrolled and the results edited, they should be assigned no value whatsoever.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
About the hits: I think taking them out of context has almost no value. It may tell us something about Clancie's thought processes, but it tells us nothing about JE's 'mediumship'. It is cherry-picking. It is counting the hits and forgetting the misses. Since the conditions were uncontrolled and the results edited, they should be assigned no value whatsoever.
That, and they're completely within the possibilities of cold reading.

[eli54]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JE: Did someone work with tools?
(I'm obviously thinking, "Nothing special there.")

Elderly woman: Yes, he did.

JE (to elderly woman): And did you...(puzzled look on his face)....cut down a tree?

The daughter turns to her mother with a bemused smile, like, "What a silly thing for him to say!"

Elderly woman: Yes.

Daughter looks at her, totally surprised.

JE: I mean, did you cut down a tree. That you did it yourself. Not that you hired someone to cut it down. Because that's what I'm getting, that you did it yourself.

Elderly woman: (getting a little impatient). Yes. I couldn't afford to hire someone so I just went out and cut it down myself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did Grandpa's passing have anything to do with a tree falling on him?

[thaiboxerken]

The only interesting hits I would find in any medium would be ones that win the JREF or CSICOP tests.

[Instig8R]

Originally posted by neofight


...(snip)...

I've seen JE do readings for hours straight, and pass on some really meaningful information to the sitters. I'd pay good money to see the same sort of lengthy demonstration done by someone like Ian.......neo

Hi, Neo! I hope you are not including JE's seminar performances at Glen Cove and Westbury in the above claim. When I attended those seminars, I did not observe him "doing readings for hours straight". He didn't pass on any meaningful information either. .. (or at least he didn't until the Westbury videotape was edited, lol).

At the live seminars, JE wasted enormous amounts of time, more like a stand-up comic. He didn't do many readings at all. He killed lots of time with inane banter. He also whipped the audience up into a frenzy by suggesting that they should be receptive to ALL spirit entities, not just those they wanted to hear from. Then, when the audience obeyed by responding to anything he said, he wasted lots of time by weeding through the senseless validations. He also chastised members of the audience for responding needlessly, when they were only obeying his instructions. Then, there were painfully long periods of time when JE trolled the audience, throwing out all kinds of letters, names, places and causes of death, which no one at all claimed.

JE started out each seminar, bragging about alleged wondrous readings that he did in the past. Then, he sheepishly owned up to a few times when no spirits came through. I believe he does this to keep audience expectations down to a manageable level. Then he trolled the audience for painfully long periods

As for meaningful messages, well, JE kicked off his first reading at Westbury by seeking someone in the audience who supposedly had a case of "the runs" earlier in the day. No one was anxious to validate his statement, although he ultimately got an elderly person to go along with it after a reading began. Yes, that was truly a meaningful experience for everyone.

And, let us not forget how he called out into the audience for someone who died of breast cancer. No one claimed it, so JE settled on reading a bunch of Long Island gals whose mom died from ovarian cancer. One would hope that with JE's medical/hospital background, he would be able to tell a breast from an ovary. I guess his frame of reference malfunctions with body parts and stuffed bears.

It is only through the mercy of drastic editing that the home viewing audience was spared the agonizingly bad readings at the Westbury seminar... And, even with the editing, the readings were still bad, IMO.

JE giving seminar readings for hours??? In what galaxy? :D

[neofight]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Please open a new thread, so we can discuss this.

Claus, I have enough trouble keeping up with the existing theads that I post on. Will you still be in Denmark in September? Come on. This is easy. YES or NO? :) .......neo

[neofight]

Originally posted by Starrman


You were referring to the 'Chalice' reading, which is from JE's taped and edited TV show. I brought up an example of another taped and edited TV show that showed a cold reader doing the same thing.

Why is the chalice reading "how John will get a certain symbol, the chalice, which is within his frame of reference, being a Catholic, and the sitter then can translate that into what it means for them." But Rowland's reading so easily and sarcastically dismissed?

Because JE's readings usually take anywhere from five to 15 minutes, sometimes a half-hour, (minus the time for commercials) all with the same person or family. You guys want to keep harping on all the editing that is being done on "CO" but in actuality, there is very little editing at all, and less in this current season than ever before.

On the other hand, Ian's 90 seconds of aired readings were taken from 30 minutes of taped *readings*, and in that timeframe, I believe he included parts of readings from two or three different people.

In other words, he only showed the most impressive parts of his performance. Little snippets from two or three readings. Not all that impressive if you ask me. :( .......neo

[Loki]

Starrman (and arcticpenguin)

Why can't this be explaied as JE being the BEST cold reader out there? Michael Jordan's lifetime statistics are much better than most basketball players, but they are all STILL playing basketball.
I think this needs to be emphasised! Although I think it remains to be proven that JE can consistently outperform *any* cold-reader, even if it *was* shown to be true it doesn't validate mediumship!

You used basketball, and there's a similar example in cricket (yes, that weird game played in England and the colonies). The greatest batsman of all time was Donald Bradman, who played 60 years ago. He finished with a career average of "99.94". The second highest career average is "60.97", then "60.83", then "60.73", then "59.23" then "58.27". The career averages are spread pretty evenly from "60" downwards - with one enormous blimp up to Bradman at "99.94". Every now and then, someone is *a lot* better than those around him/her.

So, work out JE's average first - but even if he tops the averages, it doesn't prove mediumship!

[renata]

OK, it appears I am the only one who wants to analyze LKL readings to get the hit percentage :)

Here it goes. I counted each guess as a guess, and counted strong hits, regular hits, weak hits and misses. Some I did not score, for reasons explained. This is not done with any science in mind, so feel free to rescore as you wish. I also did not analyze any reading in depth, although some are extremely curious for their resemblance to cold reading techniques


I noticed following trends- almost every reading had
- an initial thrown out at them
- a number, 1-12
- badgering, asking them to write things down, repeating some guesses
- some safe guesses- dead grandparents, general cancer
-50/50 guesses
-callers tended to tell JE who they wanted to connect with, but rarely got who they wanted
-lots of platitudes - the dead ones are OK, etc.
-lots of does this make sense or do you understand questions- very difficult to score those, as not sure if caller says yes to understanding or to a connection


http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/10/lkl.00.html

Reading one

KING: We are back with John Edward. We will start including your phone calls. West Bloomfield, Michigan. Hello.
CALLER: Hello.
KING: Hi.
CALLER: Yes, I would like to ask John what he can tell me about my father or my grandfather or even my grandmother who passed away.
EDWARD: What's your first name?
CALLER: My first name is Lisa. EDWARD: Lisa, besides the people that you talked about, if -- I want to let you know that I might not be able to connect with them. I might connect with other people. If you again just say yes or no, don't say anything else.
The first thing to tell you is -- I know didn't you ask about this -- but they tell me to acknowledge a female figure that I would see as being like a contemporary to you, whether it be like a sister or a cousin but it's a female person that passed. I'm seeing this as being somebody who has got another name like yours, there has got to be another L-connection that comes up round you, that has got to be L- tied to this. I feel that this person passes either from breast cancer or a female type of cancer in some way.
OK, that's No. 1. That's the first thing I'm being shown. I know this would be like a cousin on your dad's side of the family, or a cousin through the male, like your husband's side of the family. But there is a connection through a male from what are they showing me. And they're also talking about somebody who would be known as either Richard or Rich, because a big R-connection that comes up connected to you. Do you understand that? Where is the August connection for you? Somebody passed in August?
CALLER: August? No.
EDWARD: There is. There's either an anniversary on the eighth of a month or an anniversary in the eight month, August. But there is an eight connection, from what are they showing me.
CALLER: Eight connection.
EDWARD: Is there a father-in-law also who has passed?
CALLER: No.
EDWARD: Then you've got another father figure besides yours.
CALLER: We do, OK.
EDWARD: There's like another male figure that I would see as being above you, like a father, whether it be an uncle. It's not a grandfather, it's like a father figure. There is an eight-connection, like the eighth month August or the eighth of a month. There's a connection to a young female figure to your side that I would see as being like a sister, or a friend that is passed from female a female type of cancer. That is what's coming through to me.
KING: Does any of that ring a bell?
CALLER: No. I don't know.
EDWARD: Write it down exactly as I said it.
KING: You were wrong? Or...
EDWARD: Absolutely. Absolutely could be that I was wrong. KING: Cross-connections.
EDWARD: It could be totally that I was misinterpreting.


Sitter tells JE she wants to connect with father or grandparents

Guesses (some repeated several times):
Sister figure (miss)
Lname (miss)
female type of cancer (miss)
R connection (miss)
August connection (miss)
8 connection (miss)
father in law (miss)
another father figure (weak hit)


Overall impression:badgering the listener to write things down, repeating same guesses.

Score: 8 guesses, one weak hit, 7 misses

Reading two

KING: Denham, Massachusetts. Hello.
CALLER: Hi, John. I would like to ask about my mother.
EDWARD: OK, the first thing, again, just yes or no.
KING: What is your name, by the way, sir?
CALLER: My name is John as well.
KING: Ok, John.
EDWARD: John, how are you?
CALLER: Great.
EDWARD: The first thing that I'm going to tell you is I'm seeing boxes. Whenever I'm shown boxes it means that there's some type of move or some type of moving issue around someone. So I don't know if you just moved or if there's a pending move of some sort, but there is a move issue. Is there a brother figure for you here?
CALLER: Brother figure?
EDWARD: Where does the Lewis or the Louis or the L-name?
CALLER: The L. I had a uncle that had died when I was a little kid.
EDWARD: Is that connected to your mom's side of family?
CALLER: He was her brother-in-law.
EDWARD: Is there some type of fire connection to them also?
CALLER: My grandfather was a firefighter.
EDWARD: OK, he is also there? That is other side of the family, right?
CALLER: No, my mother -- both grandfathers were firefighters.
EDWARD: Your dad's father has passed.
CALLER: Yes, he has.
EDWARD: Because they're telling me it's the other side of the family. There is connection to either him having a son with him, or him having a younger male like a grandson also there, and they're telling me acknowledge the cancer to the chest. I don't know if somebody passed from lung cancer? But there's cancer all in here, understand that? CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: Now isn't your birthday coming up?
CALLER: No.
EDWARD: Somebody like how just passed -- last week?
CALLER: Yeah, my sister's was a day or two ago.
EDWARD: That is not. It's next week. It's coming up like in a week.
CALLER: My younger brother's is next week.
EDWARD: And he's out of your state?
CALLER: He is on -- no, he is in Massachusetts.
EDWARD: Is he -- are you in that same state?
CALLER: Yes, we are.
EDWARD: There is somebody else out of that state or he's out of state now or there's an out-of-state connection, because they're talking about the out-of-state connection.
KING: What can tell him about his father, though?
EDWARD: I'm not -- all I can tell you is what's coming through. To me the whole message is to validate the fact that this is still connected. They are telling me...



Caller tells JE he wants to connect with his mother
Guesses:
-Boxes/move (not validated)
-brother figure (not validated)
-L name (weak hit- uncle)
-mother's side of the family (Not sure if it was a hit. Caller said uncle was mother's brother in law, but that could mean he was his father's brother, so that would be a miss, or could be related to his mother in another manner. Not scoring this)
-fire connection (hit, grandfather firefighter)
-other side of the family for gandpa (miss, both of granfathers are firefighters)
-dad's father passed (not scoring this- caller says both granfathers were firefighters, obviously both have passed)
-son, younger male (not validated, although it could have been the previously mentioned uncle)
-cancer to the chest (weak hit as general cancer that caller "understands")
-caller's birthday (miss)
-birthday of someone who passed(miss, although caller tried to fit future birthday to past birthday, and to his brother who is alive)
-brother out of state (miss, brother in same state)
-someone out of state (not validated)


Overall impression- some very general hits (cancer) caller not connected with mother, caller tried to fit reading to himself

Total score: 13 guesses
4 not validated
2 not scored
2 weak hits
1 hits
4 misses

Reading 3

KING: Lost him, sorry. Trinidad, Colorado. Hello.
CALLER: My question for John was that my sister comes to me through dreams sometimes and I was wondering is that how people communicate much through dreams.
EDWARD: Absolutely. The No. 1 way that I find that people are able to make connections with their friends and relatives who have crossed over on their own, is usually in the dream state. And that is because that is the place where we kind of surrender and say, "OK, it is acceptable." Not every dream, though, that we have of somebody who crossed over is what I would consider a visit. So you really need to write those down.
KING: OK. Do you have a question? Sorry, go ahead.
CALLER: Well, my sister passed about six years ago, and I was just wondering if you could tell me anything.
EDWARD: Where is -- sorry -- where does the K-name like Karen come up?
CALLER: I don't know. EDWARD: Yes, you do. There is a C or a K connection directly to you or to this family, from what they are telling me. So it either means it's who they are -- put your sister on hold and think about your family. There is some type of C or K connection and they're also telling me to tell you 11, which either means that the 11th month November or the 11th of a month has some type of significance. And why are they showing me...
CALLER: 11th month -- November is her birthday.
EDWARD: Why is there a split family? Is there a split connection there?
CALLER: Gosh. Well my dad's side and my mom's side, it's not that they are split, it is just that they are two totally different.
EDWARD: No. No. There is a split. There is a split where like somebody was raised by somebody who is not -- like there's either a step situation or like an aunt...
CALLER: Oh. My other sister is a lot older -- my other sister is a lot older than me and she's my half sister.
EDWARD: And there's also a congratulations on the baby. Somebody is pregnant.
CALLER: Dorothy. Dorothy is pregnant. She was my sister's best friend.
EDWARD: Just that acknowledgement that comes up. They're telling me talk about Virginia. Where are you calling from?
CALLER: From Colorado.
EDWARD: That is not Virginia, but they're showing me the state of Virginia. So I don't know.
CALLER: Virginia. My cousin living in Virginia now. I have been talking to her about a lot -- my sister a lot.
EDWARD: Somebody there committed suicide. Like their actions brought about their own passing. Are you aware of that?
CALLER: No, I'm not.
EDWARD: OK, just remember I said this. Thank you for calling.


Caller wants an explanation about dream connection with her sister who passed 6 years ago

Guesses:
-K name (miss)
-C or K name (not validated)
-11 connection (weak hit, November birthday)
-split family (miss)
-step situation or an aunt (half sister, weak hit. I am scoring it weak because JE seriously broadened the scope)
-pregnancy (friend is pregnant, hit)
-Virginia (weak hit, cousin lives there)
-suicide (miss)

Overall impression- more badgering and generalities, but some hits. He is doing better with this one

Total score
8 guesses
3 misses
1 not validated
3 weak hits
1 hit



Reading 4

And the caller is from Brooklyn, where Michael was born.
Hello?
CALLER: Hi there.
KING: Hi.
CALLER: I'm trying to connect with my aunt.
EDWARD: OK. Can you put your aunt on hold for one second?
CALLER: OK.
EDWARD: Is there a grandfather for you also whose passed?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK, that's her dad?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK, and there is a Joseph connection to that?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK. And does he also have a son whose passed?
CALLER: No.
EDWARD: Yes, he does. Let's put it this way, there's a younger male energy directly connected to the grandfather.
EDWARD: So either he has the younger brother whose -- there's two Joes?
CALLER: Not that I know of.
EDWARD: OK. There's two Joes from what they're showing. There's your grandfather whose got the connection to Joseph and there's another Joe that they want to me acknowledge. So whether it's Joanne or Josephine, I don't know, but there's two Joes.
What's your aunt's extremely fast because they're talking about a very fast passing. Actually, specific? No. I mean, like, did somebody there who passed from either what I was see as being embolism or an aneurism or a very fast heart attack, like very, very fast.
CALLER: An embolism.
EDWARD: Like really fast.
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK. They're also making me feel like to acknowledge that there's some type of connection to the month of February or that somebody either was born in February or there's something about -- something big in February.
CALLER: It's his wife's birthday.
KING: Do they have anything to tell her? Usually, you tell her something that they're going to say.
CALLER: She's also passed.
EDWARD: Well, one of the things that they do, by validating this for me, is their way of saying that they're still connected. And I think for me being the, like I have to get the evidence, that this is their way of letting me that they're around.
I do want to acknowledge that they're telling me -- is your mom still here? They telling me to acknowledge hello to your mom.
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: All right, and I'm also supposed to talk about her knee and saying her knee's OK now. What's up with the knee?
CALLER: She has a bad knee?
EDWARD: But it's like better?
CALLER: She has trouble walking.
EDWARD: OK, and you made fun of your mom's knee?
CALLER: No, I don't make fun of her.
EDWARD: Yes, you do. They're telling me you make fun of your mom's knee. You were teasing her about her leg. You just did this.
CALLER: I don't remember.
EDWARD: OK, it happened at the younger female's party, where she was a having a hard time -- somebody's having a hard time getting into the room or getting into something and somebody was joking around about the person walking. This is their way of letting you know that they were around. But your aunt is fine and the people that I acknowledged are also there.
CALLER: OK.
EDWARD: All right, Thank you.



Caller trying to connect with aunt

Guesses:
-dead grandfather (hit)
-aunt's dad (weak hit- he has 50/50 chance of getting it right)
-Joseph connection (hit)
-his son who passed (miss)
-younger brother who passed (miss)
-2 Joes (miss, and one example of cold reading tecniques. Names frequently repeat in families, it is a safe guess to say there are two of them. Oopsie...)
-Joanne or Josephine (miss- now he would take any J name, male or female)
-fast death, such as embolism, aneurism or heart attack (hit, although once again, broadened the field considerably)
-February connection (weak hit, dead person's wife's birthday- who caller says also passed)
-mom still alive (weak hit-another 50/50)
-bad knee, now better ( this is interesting. Caller does not confirm, but repeats, so JE immediately says- it is now better, as caller did not validate. Caller then says she has trouble walking, but nothing about a knee- could be a hip or something else, and she has trouble, so it is not better. Not scoring this)
-making fun of knee (miss)


Started well with likely hits, then got worse, more badgering and guessing months.

Total score
12 guesses
3 hits
3 weak hits
5 misses
1 not scored

KING: Hickory, North Carolina, hello.
CALLER: Hello, John.
EDWARD: Hey, how are you doing?
CALLER: Good.
EDWARD: Don't say anything. First I want to acknowledge, is there a Bill connected to you?
CALLER: A Joe?
EDWARD: No, a Billy or a Bill name?
CALLER: No.
EDWARD: Yes, there is.
KING: No, don't like to John. There is.
EDWARD: I'm sorry, as soon as I heard your voice, it was like boom. There was like a huge B connection in my head, which means either it's your or there's a B connection directly to you and that there's an older male figure.
KING: Could be the next caller.
EDWARD: Hold on, or that there's an older male figure passed whose also connected to you. So I don't know if it's your dad whose passed or it's an older male that's there, but this person passed and they had cancer. And it affected their brain or there's tumors to the head.
CALLER: OK, that would've been my uncle.
EDWARD: OK. Is that connected to your mom's side of the family?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK, is mom still here?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK. And there's some type of connection to B. There's got to be like a Billy or a B in there.
CALLER: Betty.
EDWARD: Or a Betty. Is that connected to that same person?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK. I need to congratulate you on the uniform. So I don't know if you're doing something with the uniform or if there's like somebody whose just graduated in uniform or something, but there's like a uniform, like a cadet feeling that comes up in this family, just so you know. And they're also making me feel like your mom's mom must be there, because they've got the older female to her, whose also there.
Does that make sense?
CALLER: Yes, it does.
EDWARD: OK. And they're also telling me to acknowledge that somebody's a double amputee. Somebody's missing -- or they're paralyzed in both legs.
CALLER: That doesn't ring a bell.
EDWARD: I'm sorry?
CALLER: That doesn't ring a bell.
EDWARD: OK, put it to that side of the family also. I'm sorry, as soon as I heard your voice, boom, that's what...
KING: Do you have a question, sir?
CALLER: Excuse me?
KING: Do you have a question?
CALLER: I just wanted to know if you could connect with my father, who passed away several years ago.
EDWARD: In addition to what I said, I can only tell you that, and I'll say this, there's somebody there who either had cirhossis or there was somebody there who had severe liver disease. Do you understand that?
CALLER: Uh-huh. That would be my uncle who had cancer.
EDWARD: OK.
CALLER: To the brain. EDWARD: And that's connected to your mom's side of the family, too, right?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: That's the same person?
CALLER: Mm-hmm.
EDWARD: Right. Those -- and I'm not connecting with your dad, I'm sorry. It doesn't mean that he's not OK. I just feel like, you know, these are the people that see us as their opportunity. This is a big deal with the whole cadet graduation thing. So I want you to remember that, OK?
CALLER: OK.
EDWARD: Thank you.


Caller wants to connect with their father

Guesses
-Bill (miss- who does not know a Bill?)
-older male who passed (weak hit)
-cancer in the head (weak hit)
-connected to mom's side (weak hit, another 50/50)
-mom alive (weak hit, 50/50)
-B name (weak hit- Betty, not Bill! These wacky transgendered dead people)
-uniform (makes sense, weak hit)
-older female (makes sense, weak hit)
-double amputee (miss)
-liver disease (weak hit- turns out to be the same uncle who had brain cancer. Wonder whether he had both, or if the caller is trying to make it fit)
-mom's side (not scoring, that was already established)


Impression- many weak general hits, once again not connected to the person they wanted to, more badgering

Total score

11 guesses
2 misses
8 weak hits
1 not scored



To be continued in another post...

[Instig8R]

Hey, Renata-- Nice work! How interesting that you chose the Larry King Live Transcript of 9/10/01. This is the transcript that reveals just how bad JE is.

He claims to be a psychic-medium, but gave no sign that thousands of people would die in the terrorist attacks the following morning... just a few hours after these awful readings.

[renata]

Reading (lost count of which number)

Just the next one!

KING: Virginia Beach, hello.
CALLER: Hello Larry and John. John, can you communicate with my father to find out if he's happy with how our family is getting along without him? And what was the true date of his death?
KING: You don't know the date of your father's death?
CALLER: He was found deceased.
KING: Oh.
EDWARD: Well, let me just -- I'm going to start off in a unique area, which I think is important so the other people are going to want to hear this also. I don't know if -- I'm just going to say this. First and foremost, your -- your dad have a dog just passed?
CALLER: A dog?
EDWARD: Yes.
CALLER: No, but he had a...
EDWARD: OK, wait, wait. I just want to tell you there is a dog that is with your father because as soon as you started asking me the questions, I started getting the dog barking, which is a symbol to let me know that there's an animal or pet that's passed.
CALLER: OK.
EDWARD: And this would be something that I see as not, this is like an old pet, like 12 or 13-years-old and it's part of the family from what they're showing me.
CALLER: OK.
EDWARD: And I feel like was there before the father actually passed?
CALLER: Right.
EDWARD: They're also telling me to tell you that the 14th of a month is significant. So I don't know if there's a birthday or an anniversary on the 14th. And they're showing me the sign of Gemini, which either means that somebody is a twin or that somebody's actually the sign of Gemini. OK? That's No. 1.
Your dad must have a sister or a female figure to his side, whose also there, that passed before him. Do you understand that?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK, and I feel like that would be somebody who would have met this person? And they're telling me acknowledge either Jimmy or Jeannie or Jenny or some type of name that sounds like that in connection with this family.
And I'm thinking that there's a two day thing going on because there's a two day delay before somebody would've seen this person. Do you understand this?
CALLER: OK.
EDWARD: Did something see him two days before?
CALLER: Yes, we all did.
EDWARD: But like two days before?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK. I feel like it's not -- it was probably right after the -- I don't know, I think it's within that two days that they're showing me. And I feel like I need to acknowledge not getting the cake.
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: You haven't -- was he like diabetic or something where he wasn't allowed to have it?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: Or wouldn't let him have the cake. Because I feel like I couldn't get the cake, whatever that means.
CALLER: Right.
EDWARD: There's also two wives. Was he married twice?
CALLER: No.
EDWARD: Was there a wife and a very significant friend?
CALLER: No.
EDWARD: OK, let's just put it this way, I've got two female energies that I feel like I need to acknowledge for this man. So whether it be two wives, two very close females, a sister and a friend. I have no idea what this is, but I know that there's an Elizabeth or Liz that's connected here.
CALLER: That's my sister, Elizabeth.
EDWARD: OK. This is just their way of acknowledging to me that they're connected to you. And please, I want you to understand that the first thing I got was the connection to the dog. Right, I wrote that down.
And also, I don't know, you know had like a hernia in the stomach or something?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK. This man was plagued with a lot of stuff, but I feel like there's like a throwing in the towel. So this was something he was ready to leave. Do you understand that?
CALLER: Right, right.
EDWARD: Do you have the book of poems or the book of poetry or the special book?
CALLER: Yes, I don't know which book.
EDWARD: OK, it's -- it to me, when I see this, it's a symbol. It either means it's like either a family bible, it's a family something. And inside this bible, there's either like the ribbon or there's like the picture or it's a pressed feather or a rose. It's something I feel like would be significant.
CALLER: OK.
EDWARD: I just know I feel like that this is their way of coming across. Thank you.


Caller wants to connect with her father and know when he died

Guesses
-dead dog (miss)
-old pet (weak hit, caller says no on the dog, but starts saying he had something else)
-number 14 ( not validated. unusual, most numbers he gave are 1-12, and could count as days or months or years)
-Gemini (not validated)
-female figure (weak hit, caller "understands")
-Jimmy or Jenny (not validated)
-2 day "thing"- seeing her father 2 days before he passed. (hit- he starts generally, and gets a decent hit)
-not getting cake, diabetes (weak hit- old man, diabetes is common)
-married twice (miss)
-wife and significant friend (miss)
-female energy, like a sister or a friend (not validated)
-Elizabeth (hit, daughter)
-hernia (hit)
-special book (weak hit, caller has a book)
-family bible, with ribbon or picture (Note caller says OK to that, while she said Yes to hits. Makes me think it was not a hit, but I do not know- not scoring it)



Overall impression- decent general reading

Total score

15 guesses
2 misses
5 weak hits
4 not validated
3 hits
1 not scored

KING: Thank you, ma'am. Mount Morris, Michigan, hello.
CALLER: Hi, John.
EDWARD: Hi, how are you?
CALLER: I'm fine. How are you?
EDWARD: I'm good.
CALLER: I'm calling...
EDWARD: Well, first of all, don't say anything. What's your first name?
CALLER: Kathy.
EDWARD: Hey, Kathy. The first thing -- there's two things I want to acknowledge, three things I want to acknowledge. One, I don't know if you have the son whose passed, but they're telling me to acknowledge a younger male or somebody who's lost a child around you. Do you understand that?
CALLER: Hmm...
EDWARD: Actually, this is a vehicle accident that somebody passed in. And it's like an impact that they're trying to show me. And it's directly connected to you. It's not for anybody else on hold or anybody else that's watching. It's something -- it's a younger male that passed and path is directly connected to you.
And I feel like this is somebody who actually was driving. It was their fault. There's a J or a G name that's connected to this also. And they're telling me to also acknowledge the fact that separate from that, there was somebody who was murdered.
CALLER: Wow, I'm not quite sure on that.
EDWARD: OK, I want you to remember what I'm saying, OK? There's somebody who passed at the hands of somebody else.
KING: Who are you calling about?
CALLER: My mother.
EDWARD: No, I'm not getting your mom. You've got somebody who's either, there's somebody, Kathy, there's somebody who's coming through who's acknowledging that they passed like either the husband or the boyfriend or somebody that they were connected to was involved in the past. This might've been going back a while.
CALLER: OK.
EDWARD: But it's directly connected to you.
CALLER: OK, I had a car accident and I'm a paraplegic because of that car accident. EDWARD: That's not what was coming through though, unless somebody else in that accident passed?
CALLER: No, nobody passed in that.
EDWARD: No, that's not it. That's not the connection. The connection is that somebody connected to you, younger male, passed in a vehicle accident or with an impact of some sort. And there's a J or G connection to this. And there's also a connection that's separate from that, that somebody in your circle, that I feel like actually was murdered. Like somebody else caused their passing. And it's either like a friend's sister or a friend's girlfriend. It's connected to you in your circle. So I'm giving that to you.
KING: You're not getting a mother at all?
EDWARD: Not at all.
CALLER: Not at all.
EDWARD: Doesn't mean she's not OK, it just means that when I open up and I connect with somebody, they see this as their window of getting through and that's what happens.


Caller wants to connect with mother

Guesses
-younger male (miss-caller seems to decline the whole thing that follows)
-car accident, impact death (miss. Caller said she had a car accident herself, JE rejects that)
-J & G name (miss)
-driver connection (miss)
-murder (miss)
-husband/boyfriend (not validated)
-friend's sister caused someone's passing (not validated)

Bad reading, no hits at all. JE tried to get specific, and it did not work
7 guesses
5 misses
2 not validated

KING: Huber Heights, Ohio. Hello.
CALLER: Hi, there. How are you this evening?
KING: Fine.
CALLER: How are you, John?
EDWARD: I'm doing good. CALLER: This is Alma.
EDWARD: How are you doing, Alma.
CALLER: Pretty good.
KING: What's the question, Alma?
CALLER: I'd just like to see if I could communicate with my sister.
EDWARD: There's two of them, right?
CALLER: No, just one.
EDWARD: No, there's two.
KING: You're telling us there's two sisters when...
EDWARD: I'm telling her that what I'm getting is that there are two energies as I would see as being two her side who have passed.
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: Which means that you've got like two sister figures who have crossed, correct?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK. And there's like a Joyce connection to one of them or there's a J connection to one of them because I'm getting a J connection. And there's also somebody, somebody around you with Alzheimer's also or there was some type of connection that they were not of clear mind prior to their passing?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: Are you aware of that?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: There's also -- are you in a gambling community?
CALLER: No.
EDWARD: OK. Is there some type of like, somebody just win money?
CALLER: No, maybe I will.
EDWARD: No, no, no, they're referencing like some type of like gambling win. So I don't know if there's like a joke here, where somebody used to joke about, you know, winning the big lotto jackpot or winning bingo or something, but there's like a joke about that.
And I'm also supposed to talk about your ring. I don't know if you have one of the sister's rings, but there's a connection to a piece of jewelry that's passed down. But it's got to more left hand related like wedding band or they want me to acknowledge somebody who I would see as having the wedding band connection, because they're bringing that up also.
Is your dad also there, Alma?
CALLER: Yes, he is.
EDWARD: Is he the archery man?
CALLER: An archery man?
EDWARD: Is somebody play -- did somebody shoot with a bow and arrow or do some type of like archery?
CALLER: Not that I know of.
EDWARD: OK, that's a unique symbol for me. Somebody's doing like an archery thing, where there's some type of like archery connection.
KING: Maybe it's Cupid.
EDWARD: Like there's got to be like a bow and arrow connection. So I'm going to leave that with you, but I got that connected around that energy.



Caller wants to connect with her sister

Guesses
- 2 sisters (miss)
- 2 sister figures (weak hit- he knows one sister is dead, and now there is a second energy- could be anybody)
-J connection (not validated)
-Alzheimers/senile (weak hit, another generality about old age and dead people)
-gambling (miss)
-did someone win money? (miss)
-ring (not validated)
-dead father (weak hit, 50/50)
-archery (miss)


Another bad reading. Badgering and trying to make 2 sisters (recall this is a common cold reading technique to say there is 2 of something they know there is one of- remember Rosemary Altea and 2 rosebushes) fit into two energies.

Total score
9 guesses
4 misses
2 not validated
3 weak hits

KING: Thank you. Dublin, Georgia, hello.
CALLER: Hi.
KING: Hi. Go ahead.
CALLER: Yes, I'm calling to see if I could communicate with my father.
EDWARD: OK, the first thing I'm going to ask you -- I'm telling you. I'm getting an S name. Who's got the SH connection?
CALLER: S name?
EDWARD: Like S.
KING: Like Sam.
EDWARD: Like as in Sharon or Sherie. You know, what? I'm not connecting with you. This is not for you. I'm sorry.
KING: You don't get any reading?
EDWARD: It's not because I'm not with her.
KING: No? Does that happen with some people?
EDWARD: Absolutely. KING: And how do you explain it?
EDWARD: Because I think it's somebody (INAUDIBLE).


Caller wants to connect with father.

Guesses
-s name (miss)
JE bails immediately, claiming not for this caller, after he does not get validation

Total score
1 guess
1 miss

KING: Washington, Indiana, hello.
CALLER: Hello.
KING: Hi, who's Sherie?
CALLER: Sherie?
KING: OK, never mind. Little joke. Go ahead. What's your question?
EDWARD: I'll do the reading. What's your first name?
CALLER: Carol.
EDWARD: How are you doing, Carol. Carol, who around you has the SH connection?
CALLER: SH?
EDWARD: Like Sharon, Sherie.
CALLER: Sherum.
EDWARD: Sherum. What is that?
CALLER: That's my sister's last name.
EDWARD: OK, is she still here?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK, do you know if there's somebody younger in that family whose passed?
CALLER: No.
EDWARD: OK, let me say this, the person to tell you, there's a mom figure who's coming through. So I don't know if its your mom whose passed or if it's a mother-in-law. But there somebody who passed from congestive heart failure or they filled up with fluids. Do you understand that?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK, they're telling me acknowledge that the 18th of the month has some type of significance. Do you understand that?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK. They're also making me feel -- oh, your dad's there, too? CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: OK, and they're also telling me to technology Charles or -- there's a C name. There's like a C connection to that side of the family. So between the father and the mother energy, they're telling me to acknowledge the SH in the family. And they're also making me feel like do you have cows?
CALLER: Cows?
EDWARD: Cows?
CALLER: No, we don't.
EDWARD: Was there some type of connection to the family?
CALLER: No.
EDWARD: OK, I want you to remember that I'm saying this, they're showing me cows. Now.
KING: Maybe they drink a lot of milk.
EDWARD: I come from the city, so bear with me with my reference. I think cows and I think Ben and Jerry's ice cream. So I think I need to talk about real cows, like as in milking the cows or owning the cows, but there's a reference to like living cows in some way. So cattle, in some reference.
KING: I must say this, John.
EDWARD: It's abstract.
KING: You don't come up with everyday things, you know what I mean? The archery thing. That ain't out of the realm of the normal.
CALLER: No, no.
EDWARD: Just remember the cow thing.
KING: Look up the cows, ma'am. If he tells you cows, there's cows.
CALLER: I got questions.
EDWARD: Go ahead.
CALLER: Can you let me know if my husband's crossed over?
EDWARD: See, I'm seeing it again. What's your first name?
CALLER: Carol.
EDWARD: Carol, I want you to really think...
KING: You don't know if your husband died? CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: Carol, why is there -- they're showing me cows. Did someone in his family like something cattle-related?
CALLER: No.
EDWARD: Are you sure? There's cows.
KING: Did your husband run off to the West?
CALLER: No.
EDWARD: There's cows. If they're showing me cattle and cows, there's a definite link.
KING: OK, I got to take break. We'll check on that. Boy, you are really, OK.
EDWARD: It's never dull in my world.
KING: OK. Funny, now it's weird. I saw a zebra. It's crazy. We'll be back with our remaining moments right after this. Don't go away.


Caller wants to know if her husband died. This is the weirdest reading so far.

Guesses
-SH connection (Hit! Sister's last name. Would have been more impressive if the rest of the reading was good, as we now think she is the person for who the energies were waiting for, not the prior caller.)
-someone younger died (miss)
-mom figure (weak hit)
-heart failure( weak hit, another caller "understands")
-18th of the month ( caller understands, again- not scoring this)
-dead father (weak hit, 50/50)
-C name (not validated)
-cows (miss- entirely)


Caller asks a direct question about whether her husband is dead or alive. Her parents can say 18th of the month, but they can't answer a simple yes/now question, they just tease her with cattle. Bizarre

Total score
8 guesses
1 hit
2 misses
3 weak hits
1 not scored
1 not validated


KING: You can now logon to our web site at www.cnn.com/larryking. You'll get the answer to King's quiz. And we'll go to Young, Washington with John Edward. Hello.
CALLER: Hi.
KING: Hi.
CALLER: I was wondering if he can connect with my uncle.
EDWARD: What's your first name?
CALLER: Veronica.
EDWARD: How are you doing, Veronica.
CALLER: Hi.
EDWARD: No, I can't connect with your uncle.
CALLER: OK.
EDWARD: Are you currently married?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: Is there like a mother or an aunt figure on your husband's side of the family who just passed?
CALLER: A mother or aunt figure? No.
EDWARD: Yes, there is. Somebody on that side of the family, older female, recently passed or connected to the male in your life.
CALLER: I don't think his mother and his...
EDWARD: Where's the Helen connection?
CALLER: The Helen?
EDWARD: Uh-huh.
CALLER: I'm not sure.
EDWARD: Is he there with you?
CALLER: He just went over next door to watch on the TV.
EDWARD: He's watching me on the TV?
CALLER: Yes.
EDWARD: So he's going to come running back going, "Yes, there is a Helen."
CALLER: Oh wait, here he comes. Here he comes. Yes, he's running back over here.
KING: Here he comes.
CALLER: Do we have a Helen? His mother's side?
EDWARD: Can you put him on?
CALLER: Yes. Here.
KING: What if he has girl named, you ruined his whole.
EDWARD: Hi, what's your first name?
CALLER: February 23.
EDWARD: That's your first name?
CALLER: Oh, Bobby. Bobby Adams.
EDWARD: How are you doing, Bobby.
CALLER: Good.
EDWARD: Just stay focused with me here. What's the Helen or Ellen connection to your family?
CALLER: Helen or Ellen?
EDWARD: Uh-huh. CALLER: I'm not sure.
EDWARD: OK, here's the deal. What's coming through, I was just talking to your wife, they're telling me to acknowledge that connected to your side of the family, there's an older female that I would see as being like a mom, like an aunt, older female, who has crossed. And they're making me feel like there's like a Helen, Ellen connection to that side of the family. And there's also the man that was known for either you went hunting with the person or there's the outdoorsy kind of thing going on there.
Where's the hiker or the woods in the family?
CALLER: Oh.
EDWARD: Like lots of land, lots of trees, house in the middle. Where's that?
CALLER: Oregon, I would think.
EDWARD: Is that where they grew up?
CALLER: My father and -- my mother grew up in Colorado. My father grew up in Texas.
EDWARD: It's not Texas.
CALLER: Texas or Oklahoma.
EDWARD: It's not Texas. It's more of a woodsy, treesy area. Anyway, what's coming through is they're telling me to acknowledge two things. One, I don't know if you guys personally lost a child, but they're rocking a baby on the other side, which lets me know that there's an energy of a child that's there.
CALLER: Oh, my older brother lost a baby during birth.
EDWARD: OK, they're telling me to acknowledge the energy of the child who's there. They're also making me feel like there's either someone whose got a name that sounds like either Tyler or Taylor or a unique T name. OK? There's a unique connection to this, but they're telling me to -- the person to tell you is that there's a person or a Helen or an Ellen or a name that sounds like Eleanor like that to me, whose connected through you, whose there. And that's the person who's trying to come through.
So I'm not getting the uncle.
KING: Sorry we're out of time. Sorry we couldn't get to the other calls. John will of course return to his program. He is a regular guest and always welcome. I congratulate you on crossing over.



Another interesting reading. Caller wants to connect with her uncle, but JE shoots that down immediately

Guesses
-mother or aunt on husband's side, recently passed (miss)
-Helen (miss- a spectacular one at that- neither caller nor her husband can find a Helen or an Ellen. That avenue is abandoned entirely)
-man, outodoorsy (Caller tries to validate but throwing out Oregon- except he did not grow up there. After some more guess a state games, that avenue is also abandoned)
-energy of a child (hit, brother lost a child. Well, he exhausted mother, and father energies, there had to be a kid somewhere)
-T name ( not validated)

Impression- callers really, really tried, without much success

Total score
5 guesses
3 misses
1 hit
1 not validated


Totals for this LKL reading
97 guesses
38 misses=39.2%
10 hits (none spectacular, I might add) 10.3%
28 weak hits (usually safe guesses) 28.9%
15 not validated 15.5%
6 not scored 6.2%

This comes out to 100.1 % ( I must have rounded wrong, but I am too sleepy to fix it). Not to mention the biggest miss of all- next day was 9/11/01, and the spirits kept showing him cows and archers.

I think I was fairly generous, but this was a very quick and dirty count, and I am sure others will disagree with me.

Not impressive. Not in the slightest. Usual cold reading techniques prevalent throughout, and the readings just kept getting worse.

[renata]

Originally posted by Instig8R
Hey, Renata-- Nice work! How interesting that you chose the Larry King Live Transcript of 9/10/01. This is the transcript that reveals just how bad JE is.

He claims to be a psychic-medium, but gave no sign that thousands of people would die in the terrorist attacks the following morning... just a few hours after these awful readings.

Thanks! This took a long time, even with the quick and dirty way of counting. I think these LKL are the only readings worth analyzing, as anything else does not have a full transcript.

I picked this one because it was the first, hopefully the other two will get a similar hit count analysis as well..just not by me and not tonight! :)

Indeed, the spirits were much more concerned with cattle than with death of thousands of people a few hours away. Silly, inconsiderate spirits!

[KelvinG]

If Clancie's stated examples are what is passing as impressive JE hits, then it's no wonder that so many people are skeptical that he is actually a medium.
Those examples are highly unimpressive and are a perfect examples of how cold reading works.
When you do as many readings as JE does, you are going to have some so called "hits" once in a while.
If this is the best the believer crowd can do, don't expect science textbooks to be rewritten anytime soon to include John Edward's miraculous abilities.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by neofight
Claus, I have enough trouble keeping up with the existing theads that I post on. Will you still be in Denmark in September? Come on. This is easy. YES or NO? :) .......neo

I don't know that yet.

Please open a new thread so we can discuss this. You are not backing down, are you???

Originally posted by neofight
Because JE's readings usually take anywhere from five to 15 minutes, sometimes a half-hour, (minus the time for commercials) all with the same person or family. You guys want to keep harping on all the editing that is being done on "CO" but in actuality, there is very little editing at all, and less in this current season than ever before.

But we see about 11 minutes of actual readings in the show. The show lasts 22 minutes. The rest is spent on anything else but readings.

If a reading happens to be 30 minutes long, what happens to the 19 minutes of the reading, neo?

Originally posted by neofight
On the other hand, Ian's 90 seconds of aired readings were taken from 30 minutes of taped *readings*, and in that timeframe, I believe he included parts of readings from two or three different people.

So? That would still leave about 10 minutes for each reading, which is what you claim JE does.

Originally posted by neofight
In other words, he only showed the most impressive parts of his performance. Little snippets from two or three readings. Not all that impressive if you ask me. :( .......neo

Please explain where the 19 minutes worth of a 30-minute reading goes, neo.

[Thanz]

Has JE ever claimed that being in close physical proximity to the sitter makes a reading easier - or the converse, that great physical distance makes it harder to "focus on the spiritual energies" or something like that?

It would seem to me that this would be an easy excuse for JE to explain away the poor LKL readings - that it is harder for the correct spirit energies to contact him when the callers come from all over the country, rather than focused in one spot like at a CO taping or a seminar.

So, does anyone know if he has offered this excuse and if not, why not?

[arcticpenguin]

Clancie,

So those are the hits that impressed you? You have not convinced me you have an apple, let alone one that glows and tap dances.

[Clancie]

Okay, that was a mistake! lol Gone for 24 hours and almost 70 responses (not including neo's) from 25 people! :eek:

I've read through them--lots of good points. I think I'll just give one answer per person, so...patience!

And, Renata, a friendly suggestion.....

You did a lot of work on the LKL transcripts and are making an interesting point (one that is probably going to get lost in this thread).

Why not start a new thread and put each reading and your tally in a separate post (or at least put them all in that other thread)?
I think its a really good topic, but I know its going to get buried here (and hard for me to read through it here, too, for some reason).

Just a thought....:p

Okay, in the words of JE..."I'm ready to begin....":)

[voidx]

Nice work Renanta. A very plain example of cold-reading througout. This again is my problem. One of Clancies points on JE is that she feels his hits and readings don't seem like cold-reading. I countered that his misses seem entirely like that of a cold-reader, and after reading these, everyone of these examples is entirely within the possibilities of cold-reading. So even his hits seem to be cold-reading. Obviously there are lots more readings he's done, which I'm sure will be brought up, but I'm of the opinion that the LKL readings are some of the more objective ones to judge him by. For one its live, he's out of his own studio environment, so we can much more easily dispel the chances of cheating or hot reading. Believers counter that the pace is to hurried on LKL, that the audio quality is bad making it hard for callers to hear JE, or vice versa (this was not a problem the few times I watched him on LKL, nor do these transcripts seem to carry that through).

I posed a question in the Michael Shermer thread basically trying to verify that JE needs certain conditions to communicate and read well, and that LKL does not meet these conditions idealy. It seems some believers think that to a degree, but at the same time, it can just as easily be turned around to say that since he's not in his own studio environment he has less control over the editing and sitters and what have you, and thus consistently does poorly.

People need to acknowledge that he does poorly on LKL, and Renanta's quick analysis here helps highlight that. So what is the excuse for his poor performance here? Its not the pace, the transcripts seem to show that he's not cut off by Larry, except on the last one. People can hear and understand him and vice versa, so that's out. Thanz put forth an interesting idea about the proximity of the callers. Has he ever laid down a disclaimer about this? My readings may be slightly off based on how far away you are, kind of thing? But then that doesn't make sense. Is there any conviction that spirits stay in close proximity to their loved ones and family? Apparently not because JE doesn't complain about the difficulty of connecting to spirits over the phone. The spirits proximity to John would be a more suitable arguement, for they are communicating with him, the caller/sitter can be anywhere because all their doing is verbally validating his guesses.

Again, I'm not impressed, I'm just not seeing these special hit examples of JE's that supposedly don't fit under the definition of cold-reading. Everyone of these is cold-reading, plain as day.

[Clancie]

(....still working....)

btw, voidx, I may have some other live and unedited readings that we can actually watch here, but will post them next week when neo's back.

[voidx]

btw, voidx, I may have some other live and unedited readings that we can actually watch here, but will post them next week when neo's back.
Well I'd say post them now, but whenever. I'd like to see some unedited transcripts of JE's special hits as you refer to them. Can you acknowledge why I would not be impressed with the readings I've read in this thread so far?

[Clancie]

Okay, here they are. (An experiment gone awry, but here it is! Seriously, it'd be easier to go argue at the Politics forum. There just aren't enough "believers" on this board to help out with these kind of threads! "Learning the hard way!" :eek: )

Anyway, I gave it a shot. Pretty much, one per....(And, Claus, give me five minutes or so to proofread, okay? Tx. )

Posted by TLN:

But how do we know it wasn't either a lucky guess or researched?

We don’t.

Posted by ARCTIC PENGUIN

Of course you know that the shows are edited. I assume you would not try to pass off anything that occurs there as happening under controlled conditions?

You have no way of verifying that JE did not research these subjects, either before they entered the studio, or while they were in the studio with the microphones on.
I think people are on better ground arguing cold reading.

Posted by Renata

Why is there never a good hit like that on those readings?

The cigarettes in the coffin—and wrong brand--was, imo, better than either of these.

Posted by DRAGON (and FSOL)

So, Clancie, what if the lady and her daughter hadn't reacted in quite that way the the first question about the tree and it turned out that someone else had cut it down for her? I think JE would still have made it sound like a hit - not so impressive because more mundane - but still a hit. Good example of warm reading.

I’m curious why people think that the daughter's reaction meant JE was right? If the comment seemed ludicrous (which the daughter’s reaction indicated)…why pursue it? Why not say, “Is there a funny story about someone cutting down a tree?” Why emphasize (as he did the first time he said it through the end) the word YOU?

To say he would have stretched it if it missed is pure speculation. :p

Posted by DENISE

I'm sure my grandmother has cut down a tree in her time, as have many other elderly women. Doing such things is usually part of life on the farm back in the day.
But is it common for JE’s New York City audiences? I’ve never heard him ask it before, of male or female.

I don't think it would be common here in LA either.

I hear many people saying its commonplace to guess that a well dressed elderly woman had chopped down a tree sometime in her life. All I can say is….as a Los Angeleno all my life, I’ve never done it and never known any woman who’s done it. (I suppose, if nothing else, that will give some insight into why this struck me as “interesting” for JE to come up with this for her vs. someone else.)

Posted by Arctic Penguin

If you knew their name and address (i.e. they had advance tickets) you could try searching local newspapers for anything. Maybe the woman got cited for cutting a tree without a permit, or maybe it fell on the neighbor's house. You don't know, do you?
I think the daughter wouldn’t have been surprised then. I really think the “cold reading” argument is better than “hot reading” for this one, AP.

And about the grandfather’s name—JE didn’t give the name, but he mentioned it was grandfather’s (i.e. not any other family members’). Lucky guess, then? Sounds like that’s what most people here think.


Posted by STARRMAN

This is essentially what you are saying: Yes, the most likely explanation is that JE was talking to her dead grandfather and he told him to tell her that she cut a tree down by herself.
I’m saying that it’s interesting that he narrowed it from the beginning more than many people give him credit for. He said, “YOU cut down the tree” rather than the more general (and safer) “There’s a funny story about someone cutting down a tree.”

Posted by BROWN (and MR. SKINNY gives examples to support this point later):

In my family, I can immediately name three elderly women who I know have cut down trees. All three of them are unafraid of outdoor labor, and do not consider it "man's work."… Consequently, the "cut down a tree" guess doesn't seem to me to be all that remarkable.
I can understand that, Brown and Mr. Skinny. Likewise, I’m sure you can understand why it surprised me, as I’ve never known any woman who cut down a tree (or JE ever addressing this possibility to someone before).

And given the woman's apparent age and frailty, it seemed an odd direction to guess.

**Here’s a thought. If its so common, why doesn’t he use it more often? Why the one time he uses it, does it “fit”? (Okay, that’s rhetorical. I already know 10 of you are yelling, “EDITING”, lol)

Posted by LTC8K6
Why wouldn't the dead relative know the proper term?

If "they" can send the imag