"My Name is Rachel Corrie" play opens in Seattle

[steverino]

I have only been on this forum for about 9 months. So I guess you could say I am giving birth to this new thread.

I searched back a few years on this forum and it seems there are several threads and tons of posts about this controversial "martyr." Here is a thread about the play's openning. And another by a pro-Israel writer who "reviews" the play and calls it all anti-Israel hype.

http://www.theolympian.com/105/story/70262.html

http://brumspeak.blogspot.com/

As I live here I am interested and it is getting some local coverage. Has anyone heard anything about the content of the play itself, and if it accurately depicts the sad event? It sounds like an anti-Zionism rant, which I find troubling, but I don't want to be "anti-play" either.

[Cleon]

I've read the script. The "brumspeak" blog indicates that he...Hasn't. None of his entry on the subject actually deals with the play; it seems to be more focused on demonizing the Palestinians and people who stick up for them. Which is standard for the subject, really.

"My Name is Rachel Corrie" is a one-woman play, based largely on the emails and letters Rachel sent back to her family. It's about what motivates her to start getting involved politically, and eventually go to join the ISM in Palestine. It ends before she dies.

I'd recommend it, for what my opinion is worth.

[Miss Anthrope]

I'm in the theater community in Seattle and I haven't heard much about it at all, which is kind of odd--especially since it's Seattle Rep and Rickman is directing...not your typical local thing.

I'm not fond of the martyr status Corrie has been given, so this just isn't a draw for me. I'd be interested in what Rickman's take is on it, but not interested enough.

[Mycroft]

I think the saddest thing about Rachel Corrie's death is how it was turned into this huge propaganda machine. Lot's of teenagers die from stupid accidents, but with her it's got to be spun into some murder plot that is somehow supposed to go far beyond the poor driver that ran over her to reveal the evil intent of an entire nation.

Then again, that seems to be the purpose of the ISM. Create the propaganda, and if a few teenagers die in the process, well that's what it takes to get the attention of the press.

[a_unique_person]

I'm in the theater community in Seattle and I haven't heard much about it at all, which is kind of odd--especially since it's Seattle Rep and Rickman is directing...not your typical local thing.

I'm not fond of the martyr status Corrie has been given, so this just isn't a draw for me. I'd be interested in what Rickman's take is on it, but not interested enough.

I guess that's why they put the play on, so that her own words can be used to let you decide if she was right/wrong/martyr/hero, outside of the media hype.

[rikzilla]

Is it by any chance a musical??
If so may I suggest a particularly apt ditty by FZ??


Yes indeed, here we are!

At Saint Alfonzo's Pancake Breakfast

Where I stole the mar-juh-reen

An' widdled on the Bingo Cards in lieu of the latrine

I saw a handsome parish lady

Make her entrance like a queen

Why she was totally chenille

And her old man was a Marine

As she abused a sausage pattie

And said why don't you treat me mean?

(Hurt me, hurt me, hurt me, oooooh!)

At Saint Alfonzo's Pancake Breakfast

(Hah! Good God! Get off the bus!)

Where I stole the mar-juh-reen . . .



Saint Alfonzo

Saint Alfonzo

Saint Alfonzo

Saint Alfonzo

Ooo-ooo-WAH . . .

so yeah....no sympathy...just disgust for the waste.
-z

[Cleon]

so yeah....no sympathy

Nobody asked you for any. Now quit acting like an ass, Rik.

[steverino]

http://www.zionismontheweb.org/Rachel_Corrie.htm

This is kind of a cute approach, other women named "Rachel" killed by Palestinian terrorists.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I think the saddest thing about Rachel Corrie's death is how it was turned into this huge propaganda machine. Lot's of teenagers die from stupid accidents, but with her it's got to be spun into some murder plot that is somehow supposed to go far beyond the poor driver that ran over her to reveal the evil intent of an entire nation.


Based on the eyewitness accounts, the driver could see her clearly and even ignored attempts by numerous people who were trying to tell him to stop the bulldozer.

[rikzilla]

Nobody asked you for any. Now quit acting like an ass, Rik.

I can't help it man....I am an ass!!
Hah! Good God! Get off the bus!

-z

[Darth Rotor]

I have only been on this forum for about 9 months. So I guess you could say I am giving birth to this new thread.

I searched back a few years on this forum and it seems there are several threads and tons of posts about this controversial "martyr." Here is a thread about the play's openning. And another by a pro-Israel writer who "reviews" the play and calls it all anti-Israel hype.

http://www.theolympian.com/105/story/70262.html

http://brumspeak.blogspot.com/

As I live here I am interested and it is getting some local coverage. Has anyone heard anything about the content of the play itself, and if it accurately depicts the sad event? It sounds like an anti-Zionism rant, which I find troubling, but I don't want to be "anti-play" either.
Let me see, Rachel's story.

"I went looking for trouble."

"I found it."

*Exit scene left on a stretcher.*

There are risks to a lot of human endeavours, to include activism, no matter the altruism or motive behind it.

MLK for fifty, Alex.

DR

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Let me see, Rachel's story.

"I went looking for trouble."

"I found it."

*Exit scene left on a stretcher.*

There are risks to a lot of human endeavours, to include activism, no matter the altruism or motive behind it.

MLK for fifty, Alex.

DR


So MLK "went looking for trouble" and "found it"?

Sounds like something a clan member would say.

[steverino]

So MLK "went looking for trouble" and "found it"?

Sounds like something a clan member would say.

Darth can stick up for his own comment. But I think his point is that MLK accepted that protest comes with risk. He knew he could lose his life, and knowingly placed himself in the crossfire.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Darth can stick up for his own comment. But I think his point is that MLK accepted that protest comes with risk. He knew he could lose his life, and knowingly placed himself in the crossfire.

He didn't go "looking for trouble". He went looking for peace and he was shot for it.

[brodski]

Darth can stick up for his own comment. But I think his point is that MLK accepted that protest comes with risk. He knew he could lose his life, and knowingly placed himself in the crossfire.

And how is this different from what Rachel Corrie did?
Unless she started complaining after she was crushed to death.

[Darth Rotor]

So MLK "went looking for trouble" and "found it"?

Sounds like something a clan member would say.
Nope, MLK referred to "risks attached to activism" (see the sentence before it) which MLK was fully aware of (I am not convinced Rachel was as aware) and he took them anyway because he felt it was the right thing. (Thus "altruism and motive.) IIRC the history, MLK had received more than one death threat, yet he still kept marching, he still kept leading the movement.

Not even a nice try, Dustin.

ETA: on second thought, the two cases really don't fit all that well together, since MLK was not quite the naive idealist that Rachel appears to have been, so that attempt at pith does fall a bit flat. Blah. The price of the attempt at a clever throwaway: one can screw it up.

DR

[Dustin Kesselberg]

(I am not convinced Rachel was as aware)

Her E-mails disagree.

[rikzilla]

He didn't go "looking for trouble". He went looking for peace and he was shot for it.

Then he found it....eh?

Look, you're wrong. People who are looking for peace meditate, go hiking, sit on mountaintops, chant.

MLK went looking for social justice; and he was martyred in his pursuit of it.

RC may have thought she was doing the same thing; but she wasn't...not even close. She stupidly allowed herself to be used as a symbol by terrorists. Now that's all she'll ever be. MLK would have pitied her, but I'm not that kind of saint.

-z

[steverino]

And how is this different from what Rachel Corrie did?
Unless she started complaining after she was crushed to death.

No, no. Not she. Those elevating her to martyr-dumb.

[Darth Rotor]

He didn't go "looking for trouble". He went looking for peace and he was shot for it.
How deeply have you studied MLK's exercises in civil disobedience?

Civil disobedience is very much a tactic of causing a kind of "trouble" in order to highlight an injustice or an absurdity in the law, or the failures in the law. (Ghandi was also pretty good at this, which got not a few of his comrades beaten by cops when they staged sit ins.) The boycott of public transport after the Rosa Parks incident was a variation on the theme.

More recently, Daniel Ellsberg was arrested, yet again, for a public strike/sit in in protest of the Iraq War. You see on the news now and again a sit in that gets people arrested. The last one I saw was in Seattle. Its aim is explicit: force the system to react in a draconian manner, and thus bring discredit to itself. King understood that and used it effectively to advance his cause and to attract broad support from across many societal lines.

So, one can certainly say he went looking for trouble, as a tactic, to advance his overall strategy of improving social justice, not "peace."

Thoreau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_David_Thoreau)wrote quite a bit on the power of civil disobedience, but it's been too many years since I read any of them to give you a pithy quote.

The risk is generally against the response of "the system," though in King's case, it was not the system that shot at him. It was someone outside the system.

DR

[Cleon]

Wow. All these people so certain of Rachel's motivations and (lack of) understanding, who haven't seen the play or read her emails.

If anyone is interested in what Rachel actually thought, as opposed to just making declarations about her character, you can read some of what she's written here (http://www.rachelcorrie.org/emails.htm).

If anything, this thread has done an excellent job of showing exactly why "My Name is Rachel Corrie" is important--to compare reality and dogma. In other words, who Rachel really was versus the character and opinions attributed to her by people whose ideology demands that she be demonized and/or belittled.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Then he found it....eh?

Look, you're wrong. People who are looking for peace meditate, go hiking, sit on mountaintops, chant.

MLK went looking for social justice; and he was martyred in his pursuit of it.

RC may have thought she was doing the same thing; but she wasn't...not even close. She stupidly allowed herself to be used as a symbol by terrorists. Now that's all she'll ever be. MLK would have pitied her, but I'm not that kind of saint.

-z

MLK went looking for peace via social justice. People who truly want peace in the world don't just go hiking, that won't fix anything.

Rachel Corrie was trying to prevent an IDF bulldozer from destroying the home of a local pharmacist. She was plowed down by it. The IDF has a history of killing civilians... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah)

[Miss Anthrope]

. The IDF has a history of killing civilians... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah)

As do the Palestinians.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

If anyone is interested in what Rachel actually thought, as opposed to just making declarations about her character, you can read some of what she's written here (http://www.rachelcorrie.org/emails.htm).

Been there, done that.


As do the Palestinians.

That makes it right?

[Darth Rotor]

Her E-mails disagree.
Do you have a site, or cite, to offer in support of that? Have you read them all? Some of them? Perhaps more of her work would change my understanding of her baseline.

ETA: Thanks, Cleon.

DR

[steverino]

Wow. All these people so certain of Rachel's motivations and (lack of) understanding, who haven't seen the play or read her emails.

If anyone is interested in what Rachel actually thought, as opposed to just making declarations about her character, you can read some of what she's written here (http://www.rachelcorrie.org/emails.htm).

If anything, this thread has done an excellent job of showing exactly why "My Name is Rachel Corrie" is important--to compare reality and dogma. In other words, who Rachel really was versus the character and opinions attributed to her by people whose ideology demands that she be demonized and/or belittled.

Thanks for the link. I read the emails. She was a naive bitch. I will not attend the play.

I do believe pretty much above all else in the importance of independent critical thinking. - Rachel the Martyr

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Thanks for the link. I read the emails. She was a naive bitch. I will not attend the play.

:nope:

[Cleon]

Thanks for the link. I read the emails. She was a naive bitch. I will not attend the play.

I do believe pretty much above all else in the importance of independent critical thinking. - Rachel the Martyr

In ten minutes, no less. Yes, I can see you read them carefully and thought this through. :rolleyes:

[Darth Rotor]

In ten minutes, no less. Yes, I can see you read them carefully and thought this through. :rolleyes:
After reading the If America Knew booklet, I've decided to do a bit more reading before commenting further, other than to point out the rich opportunities for some gallows humor.

“Let me know if you have any ideas about what I should do with the rest of my life.” - Rachel’s last email

(The not so real emails follow)

Rachel: Stay out of the way of moving bulldozers. Love as always, Dad

Dear Mr Corrie: Your email reply did not arrive in time. With deepest regret, a dear friend.

DR

[steverino]

In ten minutes, no less. Yes, I can see you read them carefully and thought this through. :rolleyes:

No. I read some of them. Made the comment. And then went back and read more. Who are you? The Amazing Kreskin? Geeze. Excuse me, Mr. Timeline Police.

I thought Rachel was someone else. How disappointing.

[Darth Rotor]

No. I read some of them. Made the comment. And then went back and read more. Who are you? The Amazing Kreskin? Geeze. Excuse me, Mr. Timeline Police.

I thought Rachel was someone else. How disappointing.
From the IDF Sergeant's email:

Please document as much as you can and do not embellish anything with creative writing. The media here serves as a very convincing spin control agent through all of this. Pass this on letter to your friends. There are many soldiers among the ranks of those serving in the occupied territories that are sickened by what they see.

Good advice ignored, I see, however, since her emails weren't quite the books and articles she was going to publish (she was an aspiring writer it seems) the creative writing style of what has been shared with the public makes sense.

DR

[steverino]

I feel I was wrong for calling Rachel Corrie a bitch. Since I think she was naive, it is not fair to give her opinions and actions the same weight I'd give a well-informed, more seasoned, protester. I think my venom should be directed toward them, and toward that organization, rather than toward her.

-Steve

[Tailgater]

MLK went looking for peace via social justice. People who truly want peace in the world don't just go hiking, that won't fix anything.
[/URL]

Social justice does not always equal peace. Sometimes it means less peace, but justice has been served. MLK wanted equal rights with non-violence. It's silly to bring up the clan like you did.

[Crossbow]

I feel I was wrong for calling Rachel Corrie a bitch. Since I think she was naive, it is not fair to give her opinions and actions the same weight I'd give a well-informed, more seasoned, protester. I think my venom should be directed toward them, and toward that organization, rather than toward her.

-Steve

I am quite pleased that your new therapy is working, and I hope that you keep to it.

This is the most sensible posting I have ever seen from you.

[steverino]

I am quite pleased that your new therapy is working, and I hope that you keep to it.

This is the most sensible posting I have ever seen from you.

Thanks. A team of experts have been massaging my feet all morning. :D

[rikzilla]

Wow. All these people so certain of Rachel's motivations and (lack of) understanding, who haven't seen the play or read her emails.

If anyone is interested in what Rachel actually thought, as opposed to just making declarations about her character, you can read some of what she's written here (http://www.rachelcorrie.org/emails.htm).

If anything, this thread has done an excellent job of showing exactly why "My Name is Rachel Corrie" is important--to compare reality and dogma. In other words, who Rachel really was versus the character and opinions attributed to her by people whose ideology demands that she be demonized and/or belittled.

My "ideology" requires nothing of the kind. I've recently finished reading Rachel's emails and the thing that jumps out at me is the stunning naivety enhanced by an obviously well indoctrinated sense of Marxist "class-guilt". "Rachel Corrie" was only the hardware crushed beneath the 'dozer. The heavy machinery only killed her body, her upbringing and education killed her mind long before she ever set foot in Palestine.

Fear not oh hand-wringing, self-hating, limousine liberals! The software "viral" version of Rachel Corrie continues to replicate and infect other hardware in universities from coast to coast! Sales of Che t-shirts on campus remain at record highs.

-z

[Cleon]

I feel I was wrong for calling Rachel Corrie a bitch.

Thank you.

[Cleon]

My "ideology" requires nothing of the kind. I've recently finished reading Rachel's emails and the thing that jumps out at me is the stunning naivety enhanced by an obviously well indoctrinated sense of Marxist "class-guilt". "Rachel Corrie" was only the hardware crushed beneath the 'dozer. The heavy machinery only killed her body, her upbringing and education killed her mind long before she ever set foot in Palestine.

Fear not oh hand-wringing, self-hating, limousine liberals! The software "viral" version of Rachel Corrie continues to replicate and infect other hardware in universities from coast to coast! Sales of Che t-shirts on campus remain at record highs.

So now she's a Marxist?

Wow. I mean, wow.

[rikzilla]

So now she's a Marxist?

Wow. I mean, wow.

How is she not? C'mon Cleon; "Class guilt" "Too much opulence" "international white person status".....her words not mine. My interpretation of this lib-bot spew is Marxist. But hey, it could be Maoist.....

You were the one who said read her e-mails to know her better....well now I do. I must say, I feel pretty good about calling her a Marxist.

-z

[webfusion]

Rachel Corrie was trying to prevent an IDF bulldozer from destroying the home of a local pharmacist. She was plowed down by it. The IDF has a history of killing civilians... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah)

1. It was a combat bulldozer, and she was killed while attempting to halt a moving armored vehicle during ongoing IDF combat operations. What if she had been flattened by a tank?
On the day in question,
March 25th, 2003 --- the IDF was not out there to have a bit of fun.
http://www.arij.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=224&Itemid=35&lang=en
For some bizarre reason, this detailed and comprehensive report omits mentioning the incident involving Rachel Corrie.

2. Al-Durrah? Are you really that ignorant?

[Miss Anthrope]

Been there, done that.




That makes it right?

Look, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who blow up busloads of innocent people on a regular basis. Nor do I look kindly on the martyr status of someone who blindly and foolishly followed their ideology to their own deaths when this is not a simple black and white issue of Palestinians good/Israelis bad.

It's a simplistic argument for a complex situation.

[a_unique_person]

Look, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who blow up busloads of innocent people on a regular basis. Nor do I look kindly on the martyr status of someone who blindly and foolishly followed their ideology to their own deaths when this is not a simple black and white issue of Palestinians good/Israelis bad.

It's a simplistic argument for a complex situation.

Don't look now, but I think you just gave a simplistic argument for a complex situation.

[Miss Anthrope]

Don't look now, but I think you just gave a simplistic argument for a complex situation.

Yeah, probably.;)

[Darth Rotor]

Well, the email pile is now read, and her letters. Rachel believed she had a mission to do good.

Objective analysis:

a textbook example of a bourgeoise "useful idiot" with a sincere intent to do good

Subjective analysis:

For all that her dad apparently raised her to care, and to have a social conscience, nowhere in her preparation for her role in Gaza or ISM was she prepared to deal with an armored bulldozer driven by a man on a mission. Danny the IDF sergeant in his email sent her an unheeded warning: she appears to have objectified the soldiers she was opposing, and trying to deal with, and failed to correctly estimate the reactions and actions of a living and breathing human being operating in an urban war zone. She incisively described that urban war zone in her own words, with some eloquence.

What a shame.

She was sent into action to fight someone else's war, without proper training, but with a headful of ideals. The same thing happened in the Iran/Iraq war during some of the early Iranian "human wave" attacks: idealistic young people sent into a battle without proper training.

To paraphrase Dick Deadeye from HMS Pinafore:

She meant well, but she didn't know. :( Now her death is being used, as she was used by ISM. That's real life, away from the Ivory Tower.

RIP Rachel, you were following your heart.

DR

[RandFan]

This is one of those really polarizing issues. I can't imagine why there is a play about this. She was a partisan who would only allow herself to see one side of the struggle. She was an outsider who could have cared about the atrocities and death and the loss of life and innocence and normalcy on both sides. She could have sought to be an activist on behalf of the Palestinians without being so myopic as to believe that the Palestinians were to an extent justified in murdering innocent civilians. She ceased being a "peace" activist when she became a partisan. I'm sorry but I don't see this as a false dichotomy. Especially for an outsider.

I'm really saddened by this news.

[Mycroft]

Rachel Corrie was trying to prevent an IDF bulldozer from destroying the home of a local pharmacist.

A local pharmacist who owned a home that was used for weapons smuggling.

The way the ISM spins it, it's as if a local pillar of the community was about to be made homeless, but he owned many homes, the one that was slated to be destroyed was empty at the time and had a tunnel used for smuggling weapons.


She was plowed down by it. The IDF has a history of killing civilians... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah)

You don't even read your own links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah#Controversy

Also:

(click past the survey)
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200306/fallows

http://www.menapress.com/article.php?sid=962

http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=3&x_outlet=167&x_article=855#claim

[The Fool]

A local pharmacist who owned a home that was used for weapons smuggling.

Interesting, I know of no evidence to support this besides claims such as yours. What do you base this claim on? Bulldozing was done By the IDF for a number of stated reasons, tunnels were one of them. I don't know of any specific evidence implicating the Pharmacist or his house or even a claim from the IDF. As far as I know the IDF report did not claim the house was used for weapons smuggling. Can you show where you got this story from?


The way the ISM spins it, it's as if a local pillar of the community was about to be made homeless, but he owned many homes, the one that was slated to be destroyed was empty at the time and had a tunnel used for smuggling weapons.

It had a tunnel ? Can you show any evidence of a tunnel?....or even a claim by the IDF that it had a tunnel? You sound so confident when you punch out these claims...where did you get it from?

[Dustin Kesselberg]

A local pharmacist who owned a home that was used for weapons smuggling.

The way the ISM spins it, it's as if a local pillar of the community was about to be made homeless, but he owned many homes, the one that was slated to be destroyed was empty at the time and had a tunnel used for smuggling weapons.

Prove it...



You don't even read your own links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah#Controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah#Controversy)

Also:

(click past the survey)
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200306/fallows

http://www.menapress.com/article.php?sid=962

http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=3&x_outlet=167&x_article=855#claim


Oh, You mean where the numerous Israeli sympathizers claim the whole video was "faked"?



Sounds eerily familiar...
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41030000/jpg/_41030304_irvingbbc203.jpg

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Interesting, I know of no evidence to support this besides claims such as yours. What do you base this claim on? Bulldozing was done By the IDF for a number of stated reasons, tunnels were one of them. I don't know of any specific evidence implicating the Pharmacist or his house or even a claim from the IDF. As far as I know the IDF report did not claim the house was used for weapons smuggling. Can you show where you got this story from?


It had a tunnel ? Can you show any evidence of a tunnel?....or even a claim by the IDF that it had a tunnel? You sound so confident when you punch out these claims...where did you get it from?


Mycroft has a history of blindly defending anything Israel does. You should of seen his posts during that Israeli-Lebanon conflict last year, talk about cold...

[BPSCG]

Mycroft has a history of blindly defending anything Israel does. You should of seen his posts during that Israeli-Lebanon conflict last year, talk about cold...Dustin, there was an extensive discussion of the tunnel issue here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1002224#post1002224), a couple of years ago. Be sure to read up to at least page 4, where there's a delightful citation about fake tunnels and false tunnel rumors, and the purpose behind them.

[Darth Rotor]

Dustin, there was an extensive discussion of the tunnel issue here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1002224#post1002224), a couple of years ago. Be sure to read up to at least page 4, where there's a delightful citation about fake tunnels and false tunnel rumors, and the purpose behind them.
You are asking someone young and idealisitic to do research rather than shoot from the hip, or from the emotional gut feeling.

*Harrison Ford voice*

How dare you, sir? ;)

DR

[Dustin Kesselberg]

You are asking someone young and idealisitic to do research rather than shoot from the hip, or from the emotional gut feeling.

Better than old and burnt out...

[BPSCG]

Better than old and burnt out...Never fear; you'll (probably) get there, too, someday.

Meanwhile, never forget: Age and treachery beat youth and enthusiasm every time.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Never fear; you'll (probably) get there, too, someday.



Just old.

[rikzilla]

Just old.

:dl:

You misunderestimate the modern world's ability to beat you down. Slavish addiction to your own naive perspective will only take you so far.

Curt Cobain for $1000 alex!

-z

[steverino]

Mycroft has a history of blindly defending anything Israel does. You should of seen his posts during that Israeli-Lebanon conflict last year, talk about cold...

(Derail) Dustin, Howz the ganga down there?;)

[Darth Rotor]

Better than old and burnt out...
So long as you make it to old, how you get here is up to you.

Just make it here, OK?

It's more painful once you are here, but the journey is worth it.

Bon Voyage!

DR

[The Fool]

Dustin, there was an extensive discussion of the tunnel issue here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1002224#post1002224), a couple of years ago. Be sure to read up to at least page 4, where there's a delightful citation about fake tunnels and false tunnel rumors, and the purpose behind them.
Thats correct BPSCG...That thread, started by mycroft, was the first time this claim that the house contained a tunnel was thrown up. It was put to bed in that thread because no tunnel ever existed in that house. Israel never even tried to claim it did. The only people who have ever claimed it was there are Israeli apologist bloggers and members of sites like little green footballs .Not one single shred of evidence has ever existed. Mycroft parrots the claim here even though he knows it is false....He did not believe it in the thread you linked to....

"My personal tendency is to believe the reports that say they were just clearing away rubble from empty land because that's what best fits with the witness reports and photographs."

Thats what he said then but now duty requires this girl to be smeared so a deliberate bogus claim will be parroted as fact.....

[Mycroft]

Thats what he said then but now duty requires this girl to be smeared so a deliberate bogus claim will be parroted as fact.....

Typical of the Fool. You will never argue the facts when you can just smear the other guy instead. Naturally I must "parroting" a "deliberate bogus claim" rather than simply being a bit dusty on an issue that hasn’t been discussed at length in almost two years. :oldroll:

How about you stop trying to personalize this argument and just stick to the issues instead?

[Darth Rotor]

Thats what he said then but now duty requires this girl to be smeared so a deliberate bogus claim will be parroted as fact.....
No need to smear a useful idiot, they smear themselves by their willingness to be used for an ideal.

"Here, use me."

Are you a critical thinker, Fool? Do you just throw yourself at someone else's cause and give them you, with no critical thought involved?

DR

[The Fool]

Typical of the Fool. You will never argue the facts when you can just smear the other guy instead. Naturally I must "parroting" a "deliberate bogus claim" rather than simply being a bit dusty on an issue that hasn’t been discussed at length in almost two years. :oldroll:

How about you stop trying to personalize this argument and just stick to the issues instead?
Ok...lets stick to the issues. One of the Issues is that many people make repeated bogus claims about the circumstances around Corries death...no matter how many times they are demolished they get repeated after a suitable quiet time...... I can quite happily accept that you were mistaken and had forgotten that nobody could produce any evidence the last time someone floated it in one of your threads...

Is that what "a bit dusty" means? You remember that it was claimed there was a tunnel but forgot that it was debunked?

[webfusion]

Fact:
Rachel Corrie was crushed by a mechanized armored vehicle (which was escorted by Merkava tanks) as she tried to intervene during an IDF combat-engineering mission.

RandFan has it right --
She was a partisan who would only allow herself to see one side of the struggle.

[The Fool]

No need to smear a useful idiot, they smear themselves by their willingness to be used for an ideal.

"Here, use me."

Are you a critical thinker, Fool? Do you just throw yourself at someone else's cause and give them you, with no critical thought involved?

DR
Useful Idiot? I had you picked as above a slogan chanter....maybe you could help rik think up a few more pancake jokes?

Its quite easy to declare that anyone who is involved in protest is just a weak willed puppet of a sinister conspiracy...it avoids having to consider what they were on about...

[webfusion]

What were they on about, TF?

The ISM is protesting, but what are they protesting about, really?
http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/2007/03/23/bikes-vs-bombs/

[The Fool]

What were they on about, TF?

The ISM is protesting, but what are they protesting about, really?
http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/2007/03/23/bikes-vs-bombs/
I'd say they are on about basically what they claim to be on about and thier goals are roughly what they state thier goals are. They are not a secret organisation, they are publicity seekers. But I suppose when you add "really" to the question of what they are on about then maybe you believe thier motivations are something else. What you think is thier "Real" motivations and goals and what evidence you base that on is your business. Feel free to share it if you like.

Maybe we can even move on past blatantly bogus claims and pancake jokes....something I've always found you willing to do. I'm sure you will.

Rachel Corrie wanted the world to notice something. It seems she probably got what she wanted. I'm not sure the bike rally achieved much, I didn't notice it on any newspaper front pages...maybe if they all had lycra suits, enormously bloated incomes and were full of human growth hormone it would have made the news in cycle crazy europe :)

[a_unique_person]

Was there a tunnel in the house or not?

[webfusion]

Was there a tunnel in the house or not?


The whole '****** area was razed to the ground, in the effort to stop tunneling. The zone in which stood the home of Dr. Samir Nasrallah, got demolished in a swath of over 100 meters, and this was done to prevent tunnelers from working in that sector. The question is not "was a tunnel discovered in Dr Nassrallah's home (specifically)"? -- the proper question should be -- "did tunneling exist in that overall area of Rafah and did the IDF have any reason to try and stop it by demolishing all structures"?

The answer to that appropriate and relevant question, is YES.

Rafah’s “tunnel industry” which, according to our estimates, involves millions of dollars a year, serves as a main route – indeed, the lifeline – for smuggling arms and ammunition from Egypt into the Gaza Strip. Currently, arms and ammunition transported along this route make up the lifeblood of terrorist organizations active in the Gaza Strip. Since September 2000, IDF forces have uncovered and demolished over 90 tunnels, including 9 tunnels demolished during IDF operations in April-May 2004, and 2 tunnels demolished in the course of Operation Rainbow (May 17-21, 2004).
http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/sib/4_05/tun.htm

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

In answer to TF, the ISM is so closely coordinated with the Palestinian terror organizations that it is for all intents and purposes nothing more than a front group for the various armed factions of FATAH, HAMAS and JIHADI ISLAMI.

The local ISM offices hosted two Moslem suicide bombers from the UK, who had entered Israel as "peace activists," only to blow a Tel Aviv bar to smithereens the next day.
http://israelbehindthenews.com/Archives/Jul-04-03.htm#agitate

Routinely, ISM trouble-makers have been trying to sabotage Israel's security fence, lest the fence prevent some Palestinian mass murderers from blowing up Israeli children and other civilians.

[RandFan]

...it avoids having to consider what they were on about...What was she on about? She was a partisan. She saw the struggle as one sided and she justified the murder of civilians. I don't know what she was on about. I know that it is insulting to call her a peace activist. She wasn't. She was a palestinian activist blinded by her emotions and hatred of Israel.

She does nothing to help the cause. Her memory is only divisive and is an icon of aggression toward Israel.

So, what do you think she was on about?

[RandFan]

Rachel Corrie wanted the world to notice something. And that something was pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel. That's fine. Everyone is entitled to their cause and if she were simply trying to fight the cause of the Palestinians then I could have some measure of respect for her. Justifying the killing of civilians is not a peace activist thing.

If someone claimed to be a peace activist and campaigned on the part of Israel and justified the actions of Israel I would say BS.

To the claims made by Corrie's proponents that she was somehow a peace activist I say BS.

[a_unique_person]

In what way was she violent?

[RandFan]

In what way was she violent?In what way did I say she was? Absense of violence does not a peace activist make. Absense of malice and respect for life on both sides of a conflict are requisite in my book. Corrie was found wanting.

[RandFan]

Rachel corie, peace activist burns America flag. Nothing inspires peace like burning flags and contorting one's face in anger.

http://www.jewish-theatre.com/getThumbnail.aspx?fileid=3501&width=200&height=0

[The Fool]

What was she on about? She was a partisan. She saw the struggle as one sided and she justified the murder of civilians. I don't know what she was on about. I know that it is insulting to call her a peace activist. She wasn't. She was a palestinian activist blinded by her emotions and hatred of Israel.

She does nothing to help the cause. Her memory is only divisive and is an icon of aggression toward Israel.

So, what do you think she was on about?
What do I think she was on about? Injustices toward the Palestinian people. Thats what she was on about.

Of course she was partisan, of course she was angry, probably hated what her country was doing to the point of wanting to burn flags and generally pull nasty faces at protests. Its absolutely plain she hated what Israel was doing and most likely hated the Israeli defence forces, Sharon, Likud....and probably everyone and everything else she saw as responsible for injustices towards her chosen cause. Maybe some here who have Israel as thier cause can understand that sort of single minded determination and one eyed partisan viewpoints.

The fact that she went under a bulldozer is not what I think made made her famous...or her Cause which is hardly new or unusual. I think it was her Nationality primarily, and her age and sex to a lesser extent.

sigh .....Jerusalem... Let just give it to the Damn Chinese or something eh???

[The Fool]

The whole '****** area was razed to the ground, in the effort to stop tunneling. The zone in which stood the home of Dr. Samir Nasrallah, got demolished in a swath of over 100 meters, and this was done to prevent tunnelers from working in that sector. The question is not "was a tunnel discovered in Dr Nassrallah's home (specifically)"? -- the proper question should be -- "did tunneling exist in that overall area of Rafah and did the IDF have any reason to try and stop it by demolishing all structures"?

The answer to that appropriate and relevant question, is YES.

I know that "yes" is your answer...and you have the power to do it. Nobody is prepared to stop you. Pitiful little protesters who do daytrips under your bulldozers won't stop you either.... Just don't whine about what people around the world think of you because of your actions. But anyway, the majority of those that matter to you support what you do. Do you want a worldwide fanfare and a round of applause to settle any lingering feelings of self doubt over bulldozing civilian areas?


In answer to TF, the ISM is so closely coordinated with the Palestinian terror organizations that it is for all intents and purposes nothing more than a front group for the various armed factions of FATAH, HAMAS and JIHADI ISLAMI.

I encourage you to forward your evidence to the relevant authorities so they can be added to the list of terrorist organisations.



The local ISM offices hosted two Moslem suicide bombers from the UK, who had entered Israel as "peace activists," only to blow a Tel Aviv bar to smithereens the next day.
http://israelbehindthenews.com/Archives/Jul-04-03.htm#agitate

I understand various US hotel chains hosted 911 terrorists...even fed them.



Routinely, ISM trouble-makers have been trying to sabotage Israel's security fence, lest the fence prevent some Palestinian mass murderers from blowing up Israeli children and other civilians.
lest the fence has severe and often tragic effects on the locals...take your pick.


In many ways web....you remind me of Corrie. She could only see Israeli opression and Palestinian suffering, you can only see Palestinian terrorism and Israeli suffering.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

The whole '****** area was razed to the ground, in the effort to stop tunneling. The zone in which stood the home of Dr. Samir Nasrallah, got demolished in a swath of over 100 meters, and this was done to prevent tunnelers from working in that sector. The question is not "was a tunnel discovered in Dr Nassrallah's home (specifically)"? -- the proper question should be -- "did tunneling exist in that overall area of Rafah and did the IDF have any reason to try and stop it by demolishing all structures"?

The answer to that appropriate and relevant question, is YES.


Let's image that you live on the Mexican border where a lot of tunnels have been identified around your home. Should the govt have the right to bulldoze your home on that basis?

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Rachel corie, peace activist burns America flag. Nothing inspires peace like burning flags and contorting one's face in anger.

http://www.jewish-theatre.com/getThumbnail.aspx?fileid=3501&width=200&height=0

Burning flags hurt people now?:confused:

[Cleon]

The whole '****** area was razed to the ground, in the effort to stop tunneling. The zone in which stood the home of Dr. Samir Nasrallah, got demolished in a swath of over 100 meters, and this was done to prevent tunnelers from working in that sector. The question is not "was a tunnel discovered in Dr Nassrallah's home (specifically)"?

Actually, yes, that IS the question, because that IS the claim that was produced by Mycroft. He said, specifically, that Nasrallah's house "had a tunnel used for smuggling weapons."

Which is, quite simply, a lie.

[a_unique_person]

Rachel corie, peace activist burns America flag. Nothing inspires peace like burning flags and contorting one's face in anger.

http://www.jewish-theatre.com/getThumbnail.aspx?fileid=3501&width=200&height=0

She might have felt angry. When was that a crime?

[rikzilla]

Useful Idiot? I had you picked as above a slogan chanter....maybe you could help rik think up a few more pancake jokes?

Its quite easy to declare that anyone who is involved in protest is just a weak willed puppet of a sinister conspiracy...it avoids having to consider what they were on about...

So Fool, just what was this upstanding American citizen "on about"?
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/rachel-corrie-flag-02.jpg

Rachel lived her stunted, blinkered, politically polemic life uncritically eating the crap she was fed. She was really just a woo, nothing more. She lived a woo life and died a woo death. Sorry, nothing the doctor can do at this point folks, the stupid has metastasized and is incurable. The patient was terminal long before she was delivered into the hands of her keepers.

The special golden lifetime achievement Darwin Award goes to her idiot Marxist parents whose stupidity was not quite profound enough to keep them from procreating...but was clearly effective enough to make their offspring retroactively abort. Their assistance in Rachel's untimely demise was crucial, the 'dozer was just doing it's job, the indoctrination was what put her in front of it.

-z

BTW Fool...still holding onto that family heirloom copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Damn man, that thing's gotta be worth some bucks on the Islamic antiques market by now!

[Darth Rotor]

Useful Idiot? I had you picked as above a slogan chanter....maybe you could help rik think up a few more pancake jokes?

Its quite easy to declare that anyone who is involved in protest is just a weak willed puppet of a sinister conspiracy...it avoids having to consider what they were on about...
I am indeed more than a slogan chanter, Fool. I would have hoped that my post a few back would confirm that, but it is also an unfortunate fact of political life that people of various stripe are often used for others' purposes. (There was a fine essay a few months back on how the AMerican Evangelicals were cynically used by the Bush brain trust to pursue their policy ends, to include the conflation of 9-11 with Iraq via symbols and misdirection.) Marx knew well what he was describing when he crafted the term "useful idiot" (describing a subset of the bourgeoise) in terms of how one uses other people to achieve a political end.

You don't have to be a Communist to use a similar tactic. An effective method is an effective method, when you are fighting a war in symbols, of symbols, and now that Rachel is dead and potentially martyred for someone else's cause, with symbols. This play appears to be an attempt to cement her martyrdom as a public symbol. Alan Rickman is no one's fool. He's putting it on. I don't think he's just doing it for the money, do you?

That Rachel went into a situation with high ideals, but ill prepared to handle the broad spectrum of risks facing her is the cold, heartless analysis I provided. In simpler terms, regarding iconoclastic political motivations and tactics, the term "useful idiot" applies quite aptly, however distasteful you may find that, and however generally bright, sincere and eloquent (which her writing shows her to be) she was.

She let herself be used. Thanks to her idealism, she uncritically accepted one version of a terribly messy political situation as the Only Truth. I've seen people excoriated for such an uncritical outlook on the JREF forums, and called worse than idiot for it.

Where is your objective, critical thinking in this, Fool?

DR

[Darth Rotor]

The fact that she went under a bulldozer is not what I think made made her famous...or her Cause which is hardly new or unusual. I think it was her Nationality primarily, and her age and sex to a lesser extent.

I'll buy that.

"Attractive blonde American gal dies while bearing the white man's burden to help the oppressed brown people of Palestine." (Or something roughly like that.) I see the symbolic appeal leap from the page. Her stated distaste for American complicity (in terms of aid to Israel in the face of what she saw as a terrible injustice) was well documented in her own words.

DR

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I'll buy that.

"Attractive blonde American gal dies while bearing the white man's burden to help the oppressed brown people of Palestine." (Or something roughly like that.) I see the symbolic appeal leap from the page. Her stated distaste for American complicity (in terms of aid to Israel in the face of what she saw as a terrible injustice) was well documented in her own words.

DR

That'd be a lot like saying we admire MLK because he was the noble black man who rose above the other black men to set an example for them.

It's absurd and racist. As is claiming the only reason people admire Corrie is because of her nationality and race.

[rikzilla]

That'd be a lot like saying we admire MLK because he was the noble black man who rose above the other black men to set an example for them.

It's absurd and racist. As is claiming the only reason people admire Corrie is because of her nationality and race.


Gotta love that MLK! Why he was both clean and articulate!

-z

BTW Dustin, I love how you expect the world at large to not be absurd and racist. So young,....so much to learn....once your naivety is replaced by callous cynicism you'll be far more interesting to chat to.

[Darth Rotor]

That'd be a lot like saying we admire MLK because he was the noble black man who rose above the other black men to set an example for them.

It's absurd and racist. As is claiming the only reason people admire Corrie is because of her nationality and race.
You need to learn a new line of argument, Dustin, if the best you can come up with is to call someone you disagree with a racist.

You will note that I did not say "only" but that you did. That shows that you have blinders on, not me. I recognize a pattern, a type of symbol, and a rather common one.

Maybe, Dustin, you ought to go to college, get a higher education. At the moment, you are in the brain basement.

DR

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Gotta love that MLK! Why he was both clean and articulate!

-z

BTW Dustin, I love how you expect the world at large to not be absurd and racist. So young,....so much to learn....once your naivety is replaced by callous cynicism you'll be far more interesting to chat to.


I don't expect the whole world not to be absurd and racist. I do however expect people who post on a skepticism forum not to be absurd and racist.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

You need to learn a new line of argument, Dustin, if the best you can come up with is to call someone you disagree with a racist.

I never called anyone racist.

[Darth Rotor]

I never called anyone racist.
It's absurd and racist.
Hmmm, since this is in the same thread as when you made this veiled insult to me
Sounds like something a clan member would say.
I hope you will understand my skepticism regarding the innocence of your intended meaning. Ever heard of "tarring with a brush?"

Since you did not say "DR, you are a racist," your rejoinder is literally correct.

Let us put this behind us, and hopefully continue in reasoned discourse.

Deal? :)

DR

[webfusion]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/thebagelblogger/missiles.jpg<<<< These are the people Rachel Corrie was defending that fateful day in gaza. These are the people who the ISM regards as their friends.

The entire operation of the IDF was to remove homes that were proven to be in a sector that was part of a huge tunnel-labyrinth to smuggle in weapons to gaza. Dr Nassrallah's home was part of that sector. According to Joshua Hammer (MotherJones, Oct 2003), "Almost every other structure in the area had been knocked down in recent months; Dr Nasrallah's abode now stood alone in a sea of sand and debris."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/778751.html

To this day, the palestinians are bringing in more and more arms. The gaza strip is now just a terrorist base (including al_quaeda) that Israel will be forced to destroy, eventually. The ISM will be right there, complaining and whining.

[RandFan]

Maybe some here who have Israel as thier cause can understand that sort of single minded determination and one eyed partisan viewpoints.Perhaps but then I'm not one of those. I think she is iconic of the problem. So long as one side does no wrong and the other does no good there will be struggle.

[RandFan]

Burning flags hurt people now?:confused: Did I ever shay that burning flages hurt people? Please pay attention.

[RandFan]

She might have felt angry. When was that a crime?Out come the strawman. It would be nice if you folks could debate my arguments/claims and not ones that you make up for me.

Rachel Corrie was not a peace activist.
Rachel Corrie was a partisan who saw the struggle as us vs them.
I have said that is fine but don't think her cause was peace.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Hmmm, since this is in the same thread as when you made this veiled insult to me

I hope you will understand my skepticism regarding the innocence of your intended meaning. Ever heard of "tarring with a brush?"

Since you did not say "DR, you are a racist," your rejoinder is literally correct.

Let us put this behind us, and hopefully continue in reasoned discourse.

Deal? :)

DR


Stating that something you 'said' was racist isn't the same as saying "you're racist".

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Did I ever shay that burning flages hurt people? Please pay attention.

You implied it wasn't peaceful.

[RandFan]

You implied it wasn't peaceful.Ok, and this has what exactly to do with the question at hand?

Some people want to pass Corrie off as a peace activist. Vitriol and polemics is not conducive to peace. One can be engaged in polemics, vitriolic rhetoric or symbolism without directly hurting someone.

I'll make this easy, not being peaceful does not equate to hurting people in the way you suggest.

Now, what exactly is your point?

[varwoche]

Rachel corie, peace activist burns America flag. Nothing inspires peace like burning flags and contorting one's face in anger. OH MY GOD! She contorted her face in anger!!! Odin help us all!!!

[RandFan]

OH MY GOD! She contorted her face in anger!!! Odin help us all!!!Hey, it's fine with me just don't try and sell us this bit about her being a peace activist.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Ok, and this has what exactly to do with the question at hand?

Some people want to pass Corrie off as a peace activist. Vitriol and polemics is not conducive to peace. One can be engaged in polemics, vitriolic rhetoric or symbolism without directly hurting someone.

I'll make this easy, not being peaceful does not equate to hurting people in the way you suggest.

Now, what exactly is your point?

You questioned her peacefulness by posting a picture of her burning a flag. I explained that burning a flag doesn't mean you aren't peaceful. Get it?

[RandFan]

You questioned her peacefulness by posting a picture of her burning a flag. I explained that burning a flag doesn't mean you aren't peaceful. Get it?First off, no, you did not explain anysuch thing. Please, oh please to show me this explanation.

Next, it is you that don't get it. Peace activists don't engender enmity. Burning a flag is antithetical to peace activism.

GET IT?

Oh, and you have yet to explain your non-sequitur. Could you get around to that?

[webfusion]

What 'flag' ??? It was a piece of paper with a kids' crayon drawing of something only remotely resembling the Stars and Stripes.

THIS is a proper flag burning (http://www.honestreporting.com/images/flagburn.jpg), by the "peaceful" palestinians with whom Corrie was so enamored.

[Tailgater]

You questioned her peacefulness by posting a picture of her burning a flag. I explained that burning a flag doesn't mean you aren't peaceful. Get it?

Your right. I'm going to get an Iranian flag and burn it so we can move toward peace. :boggled:

[Tailgater]

Stating that something you 'said' was racist isn't the same as saying "you're racist".

Or comparing what they say to a clan member? It walks like a duck and talks like a duck, but it's really a swan. Oooook.

[RandFan]

Your right. I'm going to get an Iranian flag and burn it so we can move toward peace. :boggled: Perfect example.

[rikzilla]

You questioned her peacefulness by posting a picture of her burning a flag. I explained that burning a flag doesn't mean you aren't peaceful. Get it?

"Peace" activists being discussed. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHVQVi7T_BE)
"Peace" activists going about their business: (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=24900_Video-_Portland_Anarchists_Burning_US_Soldier_in_Effigy# comments)

How 'bout burning a soldier in effigy as well as a US flag? No? Perhaps if they chanted a little ditty like:

"Build a bonfire
Build a bonfire
Put the soldiers on the top
Put the fascists in the middle
and we'll burn the (rule8)ing lot."

or

"Bye bye GI, in Iraq you're gonna die!"

Later in the vid a female says:
"Why don't we recruit the mentally disabled? They're already brainwashed."

Such nice folks....

are we allowed to question their patriotism yet?

-z

[steverino]

Let's image that you live on the Mexican border where a lot of tunnels have been identified around your home. Should the govt have the right to bulldoze your home on that basis?

Now that's an accurate anology.:rolleyes:

[Darth Rotor]

Stating that something you 'said' was racist isn't the same as saying "you're racist".
Right. And how about this nonsense?
I don't expect the whole world not to be absurd and racist. I do however expect people who post on a skepticism forum not to be absurd and racist.
What was I to make of that, Dustin, other than its appearance as a poorly veiled assertion of "racist" by you?

I offered you an olive branch, Dustin, in my last reply to you.

Will you accept or not?

DR

[Mycroft]

I know that "yes" is your answer...and you have the power to do it. Nobody is prepared to stop you...

Stop them...from what?

Stop them from preventing terrorists from importing weapons that will be used to kill more people.

[Mycroft]

Ok...lets stick to the issues. One of the Issues is that many people make repeated bogus claims about the circumstances around Corries death...no matter how many times they are demolished they get repeated after a suitable quiet time.

You mean like claiming RC was trying to save the home of a local pharmacist, as Dustin claimed? That may have been why they went there in the morning, but that belief hardly stands up after the ISMers spent the entire day watching the bulldozers clear brush off an empty field and not doing anything at all to the homes.

Or how about sticking to the claim that it was murder, despite the complete lack of motive on the part of the bulldozer driver? Unless, of course, you believe motive isn’t necessary if you’re in the IDF.

Useful Idiot? I had you picked as above a slogan chanter....maybe you could help rik think up a few more pancake jokes?

There you go, fling some more poo. Darth and Rik disagrees with you, therefore it must be a reflection of their personal character rather than merely disagreeing with how you see the facts? :oldroll:

Its quite easy to declare that anyone who is involved in protest is just a weak willed puppet of a sinister conspiracy...it avoids having to consider what they were on about...

Or…one can consider what they were “on about”, realize it comes from a naive and simplistic understanding of events, realize how they are being manipulated for the benefit of some very nasty people, and realize they are fools.

[Mycroft]

Let's image that you live on the Mexican border where a lot of tunnels have been identified around your home. Should the govt have the right to bulldoze your home on that basis?

Yes.

Sometimes a government has to make a decision that protecting human life is more important than someone's home.

[The Fool]

Or…one can consider what they were “on about”, realize it comes from a naive and simplistic understanding of events, realize how they are being manipulated for the benefit of some very nasty people, and realize they are fools.

Yes, Corrie was being manipulated, just as you are when you hang around the places where you read stuff such as the bogus claims of a tunnel in that house and then repeat them here. Corrie had a cause...just like you. She could see no wrong in one cause and no right in the other.... As I said to web, he reminds me of corrie in so many ways...so do you.

[a_unique_person]

Hey, it's fine with me just don't try and sell us this bit about her being a peace activist.

What violence did she use against people?

[RandFan]

What violence did she use against people?This really disappoints me.

Please to show me where I said that she used violence against people?
Please to show me where the definition of peace activist is simply not using violence against people?

I think you know better.

A peace activist is a political activist who strives for peace, and against war.Engendering enmity between Israel and Palestine is not striving for peace. Saying that you understand the atrocities of Palestine is not striving for peace.

Both sides have caused the other reason to further this war. A peace activist cannot reasonably support the cause for war. Please see Ghandi who refused to demonize Muslems or the British for the cause of Hindus and who stood firmly against violence. Please see Dr. Martin Luther King who refused to demonize whites or condone violence in support of the struggle of Blacks in America. Corrie mocks that ideal.

[webfusion]

...As I said to web, he reminds me of corrie in so many ways...

Yeah, except I'm not STUPID to play 'chicken' with a D9.

[Darth Rotor]

Yeah, except I'm not STUPID to play 'chicken' with a D9.
Web, her error was in playing chicken with the soldier driving the dozer. It's the human element that is paramount here, which makes the IDF sergeant's recommendations all the more poignant.

*John Cleese voice*

"What a dreadful waste of human life."

DR

[a_unique_person]

This really disappoints me.

Please to show me where I said that she used violence against people?
Please to show me where the definition of peace activist is simply not using violence against people?

I think you know better.



I never said you did. I was just pointing out that she has never used violence as part of her protest. On the day she was killed, there was no violence.



Engendering enmity between Israel and Palestine is not striving for peace. Saying that you understand the atrocities of Palestine is not striving for peace.

Both sides have caused the other reason to further this war. A peace activist cannot reasonably support the cause for war. Please see Ghandi who refused to demonize Muslems or the British for the cause of Hindus and who stood firmly against violence. Please see Dr. Martin Luther King who refused to demonize whites or condone violence in support of the struggle of Blacks in America. Corrie mocks that ideal.

A Martin Luther King or Ghandi is a very rare person. I don't doubt that if one turned up, the Palestinians would be a lot better off now. As Bradley said on Haaretz, if they all just got up and marched on Jerusalem, that would be a better protest than any bomb that has been blown up.

[RandFan]

I never said you did. I was just pointing out that she has never used violence as part of her protest. On the day she was killed, there was no violence.{sigh} That is precisely why I gave two premises why you were wrong.

Please to show me where the definition of peace activist is simply not using violence against people?

A Martin Luther King or Ghandi is a very rare person.Not that rare actually. It just takes a commitment to peace and non violence. I'm not sure I could make that commitment. If could not I would not call myself a peace activist.

I don't doubt that if one turned up, the Palestinians would be a lot better off now. As Bradley said on Haaretz, if they all just got up and marched on Jerusalem, that would be a better protest than any bomb that has been blown up.And if Israel marched on Palestine?

I don't assume that the problem is one sided or that a march on Israel will solve anything. On the contrary, I'm certain it wouldn't. However, if Palestine ended its call for Israel's destruction and stopped the suicide bombings they could then sieze the moral authority. Then a march might have some effect.

This will not end until both sides are commited to ending it. Palestine does not equate to India under British rule or South Africa under Apartheid.

[webfusion]

...if they all just got up and marched on Jerusalem, that would be a better protest than any bomb that has been blown up.

That mass bike ride yesterday --- organized by the ISM --- went nowhere, literally and figuratively. The media ignored it.
http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=20376


The palestinians aren't going to march on Jerusalem, peacefully.

The Israelis have that patented. Each year we march into the city and show that it's ours.
http://www.worldeventsguide.com/event.ehtml?o=2608
http://www.jewishtribune.ca/tribune/images/6-JerusalemDayIS004.JPG

[E.J.Armstrong]

I think the saddest thing about Rachel Corrie's death is how it was turned into this huge propaganda machine. Lot's of teenagers die from stupid accidents, but with her it's got to be spun into some murder plot that is somehow supposed to go far beyond the poor driver that ran over her to reveal the evil intent of an entire nation.

Then again, that seems to be the purpose of the ISM. Create the propaganda, and if a few teenagers die in the process, well that's what it takes to get the attention of the press.
Mycroft speaks so it must be true.

Perhaps you would like to support your claims here? For a change.

[E.J.Armstrong]

That mass bike ride yesterday --- organized by the ISM --- went nowhere, literally and figuratively. The media ignored it.
http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=20376


The palestinians aren't going to march on Jerusalem, peacefully.

The Israelis have that patented. Each year we march into the city and show that it's ours.
http://www.worldeventsguide.com/event.ehtml?o=2608
http://www.jewishtribune.ca/tribune/images/6-JerusalemDayIS004.JPG
The Israeli's march into the city and show that it belongs to all the religious groups that make up the population of Israel. Glad you agree.

[E.J.Armstrong]

{sigh} That is precisely why I gave two premises why you were wrong.



Not that rare actually. It just takes a commitment to peace and non violence. I'm not sure I could make that commitment. If could not I would not call myself a peace activist.

And if Israel marched on Palestine?

I don't assume that the problem is one sided or that a march on Israel will solve anything. On the contrary, I'm certain it wouldn't. However, if Palestine ended its call for Israel's destruction and stopped the suicide bombings they could then sieze the moral authority. Then a march might have some effect.

This will not end until both sides are commited to ending it. Palestine does not equate to India under British rule or South Africa under Apartheid.
Interesting that you made no reference to anything Israel should do to get peace.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Yes.

Sometimes a government has to make a decision that protecting human life is more important than someone's home.
And why did the homes of the Unabombers family not get bulldozed? Bulldozing the homes of innocent peopl is a terrorist act that you appear to have absolutely no problem with yet I have never seen you advocating that it should be applied in the USA. Double standards?

[Darth Rotor]

Interesting that you made no reference to anything Israel should do to get peace.
What do you suggest?

Please recall that any course of action needs to be realistic, in terms of Israel remains a nation state. If the latter is not part of the plan, then one could not expect Israel to undertake a blatantly self destructive policy.

DR

[webfusion]

The Israeli's march into the city and show that it belongs to all the religious groups that make up the population of Israel. Glad you agree.

I agree that Jerusalem is a religious melting-pot, since 1967. However, whenever we hear the palestinians talk about wanting jerusalem for themselves, it is routinely done in a way that emphasizes the "exclusively islamic" character of the city. I have never heard a palestinian leader talk about jerusalem in a way that indicates an acceptance of religious plurality or even acknowledges jewish historical connections, especially on the Temple Mount. Recent incitement by Sheikh Salah is typical of the palestinian's exclusivist attitude.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3215968,00.html

and

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3364841,00.html


By the way, just so I am on record ---- Israel will not obtain peace by leaving the West Bank and returning to the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines. Fuggeddaboudit.

[E.J.Armstrong]

What do you suggest?

Please recall that any course of action needs to be realistic, in terms of Israel remains a nation state. If the latter is not part of the plan, then one could not expect Israel to undertake a blatantly self destructive policy.

DR
Stop building apartheid walls on stolen land
Stop stealing land
Abide by all UN resolutions
Stop planting cluster bombs in civilian areas
Stop terrorising innocent people by bulldozing their homes
Stop assassinating people in ways that guarantee the deaths of innocent women and children
Just a few to be going on with.

It really does take two to tango if there really is a desire for peace which I seriously doubt.

[RandFan]

Interesting that you made no reference to anything Israel should do to get peace.?

I think perhaps you should go back through the thread and read what I have written. Some points.


The thread isn't about Israel but about Corrie.
I condemn the settlements and the provocation on the part of Isael as well as much of the violence on the part of Israel.
This conflict will not end until both parties are willing to negotiate and work in good faith.

[E.J.Armstrong]

I agree that Jerusalem is a religious melting-pot, since 1967. However, whenever we hear the palestinians talk about wanting jerusalem for themselves, it is routinely done in a way that emphasizes the "exclusively islamic" character of the city. I have never heard a palestinian leader talk about jerusalem in a way that indicates an acceptance of religious plurality or even acknowledges jewish historical connections, especially on the Temple Mount. Recent incitement by Sheikh Salah is typical of the palestinian's exclusivist attitude.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3215968,00.html

and

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3364841,00.html


By the way, just so I am on record ---- Israel will not obtain peace by leaving the West Bank and returning to the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines. Fuggeddaboudit.

It is quite clear that you were doing exactly what you accuse others of doing as your comment about the occupied West Bank clearly shows.

Just so I am on the record it is that sort of attitude that supports my opinion that land theft is promarily what this is all about.

[E.J.Armstrong]

?

I think perhaps you should go back through the thread and read what I have written. Some points.


The thread isn't about Israel but about Corrie.
I condemn the settlements and the provocation on the part of Isael as well as much of the violence on the part of Israel.
This conflict will not end until both parties are willing to negotiate and work in good faith.
The thread may not be about Israel but in the section I quoted, you failed to indicate that Israel had to do anything to try and achieve peace.
If Israel and Palestine are realistic about peace then they indeed both need to change. I don't see much evidence that either have any intention of doing so.

[steverino]

And why did the homes of the Unabombers family not get bulldozed? Bulldozing the homes of innocent peopl is a terrorist act that you appear to have absolutely no problem with yet I have never seen you advocating that it should be applied in the USA. Double standards?

EJ- Nobody here is saying he has "absolutely no problem with" bulldozing. There are numerous problems with creating and maintaining homeland security if you are Israel. There is no simple, pretty answer.

[RandFan]

The thread may not be about Israel but in the section I quoted, you failed to indicate that Israel had to do anything to try and achieve peace.I don't see that I needed to. At all.

If Israel and Palestine are realistic about peace then they indeed both need to change. I don't see much evidence that either have any intention of doing so.Agreed. The difference is that Israel has a much better opportunity to change. Many of its citizens are vocal and open to change. Israel is a Democracy and those that want change can make a difference. There is nothing to cause me to think that the Palestinians would work for peace anytime in the near future. Their stance is the destruction of Israel. That's a non-starter.

[webfusion]

Just so I am on the record it is that sort of attitude that supports my opinion that land theft is primarily what this is all about.

Your opinion is unsubstantiated by the facts.

If the Arab-Israel conflict is all about (in your opinion) Israeli land-theft arising from the events of June 1967, then can you please describe to us why there were wars in 1948 and 1956 and terrorism by fedayyin against Israel along with Arab proclamations of the "destruction of Israel" ---- all pre-dating the 1967 breaching of the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines?

There is no valid reason for jews to abandon their peaceful homes today just because they live in areas that are over the 1949 Armistice Lines. Those were arbitrary boundries anyway, and have no validity in law to be defined as "palestinian land borders" (those lands are disputed property, and had been claimed until 1967 by Jordan, although not many nations recognized the claim).

From my very detailed understanding of the plans of KADIMA, put forward in their platform during the previous elections, the convergence of Israeli populations on the West Bank would leave 95% of the territory in the hands of the palestinians. However, the palestinians remain determined to stick to their old game of demanding a full withdrawal of every last centimeter to the 1949 Cease-Fire Lines, and that, E.J. is a total, complete, joke.

[steverino]

...However, the palestinians remain determined to stick to their old game of demanding a full withdrawal of every last centimeter to the 1949 Cease-Fire Lines...

This is being charitable, as part of the old Palestinian game plan they want to stick to also includes pushing all the Israeli Jews into the sea.

[webfusion]

That withdrawal being Phase 1 of the 1974 Phased Plan (http://www.iris.org.il/plophase.htm).
Another key element being demanded is for Israel to allow countless millions of arab refugees to 'return' into the State of Israel.

(See; Saudi Initiative (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/03/28/arab.league/index.html) still being bandied about right now in earnest)

[Cleon]

Yes, webbie, we all know how incredibly horrible it would be for poor defenseless Israel to allow people to return to the homes they were kicked out of. :rolleyes:

[webfusion]

Who is eligible to return?

There was a population exchange in the late 40's and early 50's -- an apprioximately equal number of Arabs left and Jews arrived. This type of population exchange is fair, reasonable, and is routine throughout the world, where ethnic groups are displaced by warfare. Especially if you look at the post-WWII environment.

Also, to where did the Arabs flee in '48? Mainly to Gaza and the West Bank.
In both cases, they went no farther than 100 miles, and remained in palestine.

In the discussions of Arafat and Barak at Camp David, several hundred thousand repatriations were offered, based on a set of criteria to enable specific families and clans entry and to give rightful Israeli citizenship, using the historical record as a basis. I am confident that this same offer will stand, in the event that the HAMAS-led unity government goes to the negotiating table to establish a New Palestine in Gaza and WB.

I am curious --- how many palestinians in the world today do you think would accept Israeli citizenship if offered?
Not many, IMO.

[Mycroft]

Yes, Corrie was being manipulated, just as you are when you hang around the places where you read stuff such as the bogus claims of a tunnel in that house and then repeat them here. Corrie had a cause...just like you. She could see no wrong in one cause and no right in the other.... As I said to web, he reminds me of corrie in so many ways...so do you.

Yet another example of you making personal comments about me rather than addressing the issues being discussed.

You have no knowledge of where I "hang around" so it's both inappropriate and dishonest you to pass off your speculation as fact.

Neither do you have any knowledge of my being "manipulated" in any way other than having formed opinions that differ from yours. Unlike Corrie, who has clearly been manipulated by Adam Shapiro of the ISM, and who's death has been used extensively in anti-Israeli propaganda ever since.

How about trying to stick to the issues being discussed rather than continually trying to personalize the argument with constant speculation and falsehoods about me?

[Mycroft]

Yes, webbie, we all know how incredibly horrible it would be for poor defenseless Israel to allow people to return to the homes they were kicked out of. :rolleyes:

More or less horrible than to allow them to get on with their lives by allowing them to leave the refugee camps where they are kept?

[Mycroft]

And why did the homes of the Unabombers family not get bulldozed? Bulldozing the homes of innocent peopl is a terrorist act that you appear to have absolutely no problem with yet I have never seen you advocating that it should be applied in the USA. Double standards?

Try reading this post again:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2456590#post2456590

[Cleon]

Who is eligible to return?

There was a population exchange in the late 40's and early 50's -- an apprioximately equal number of Arabs left and Jews arrived. This type of population exchange is fair, reasonable, and is routine throughout the world, where ethnic groups are displaced by warfare. Especially if you look at the post-WWII environment.

Once again, it's Israel, so it's ok. People being expelled, forced, or scared into leaving, is neither "fair" nor "reasonable," no matter whether it happens elsewhere or not.

The fact that you think it is "fair" and "reasonable" makes you a disgusting excuse for a human being, frankly. And somehow I don't think you'd make the same argument if it were a Jewish refugee trying to return to his home in Poland.

"Fair and reasonable." Ye flipping gods. Palestinians really are subhuman to you, aren't they.

[Mycroft]

Once again, it's Israel, so it's ok. People being expelled, forced, or scared into leaving, is neither "fair" nor "reasonable," no matter whether it happens elsewhere or not.

I agree. Terrible things happen in war. Web seems to be pointing out that this specific terrible thing happened to more than just Palestinians in that war. He doesn’t seem to be saying it was okay to happen to anyone.

The fact that you think it is "fair" and "reasonable" makes you a disgusting excuse for a human being, frankly. And somehow I don't think you'd make the same argument if it were a Jewish refugee trying to return to his home in Poland.

I think it's fair and reasonable that refugees fleeing Europe were allowed to make new lives for themselves in the other places where they settled and were not required, as the Palestinians are, to avenge their misfortune before being allowed to continue with their lives.

"Fair and reasonable." Ye flipping gods. Palestinians really are subhuman to you, aren't they.

I think the ones that truly consider them to be sub-human are the ones that can only imagine one possible solution to their problems; achieving victory in a fight where they are hopelessly outmatched. I think any rational person who truly has compassion for these people would consider ways to immediately alleviate their suffering rather than force them down a path that might bring victory generations from now.

[webfusion]

...if it were a Jewish refugee trying to return to his home in Poland.

They were not allowed to return.
Many made their way to Israel.

Mycroft is absolutely correct -- I am not saying that what happened to the palestinians was a "good thing" at all. I am saying that here we are, in 2007, and rather than having made proper adjustments to get on with their lives, (as have millions and millions of people (http://ijrl.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/9/4/613), after being displaced from their homes world-wide, especially since the end of WWII), the palestinians have refused.

Their leader Abbas is hoping that the useful idiots of the world will be accepting of the initiative at the summit in Saudi Arabia later this week, which declares Israeli to be responsible for all the refugees and declares the 1949 Armistice Lines as "inviolate borders" of a jew-free Palestinian HAMASTAN terror-base. This BS "land for peace" proposal is ridiculous, under the current conditions of declared islamic terrorists being in control of the PA gov't.

Israel will likely be at war again by the summer, and afterwards, perhaps the Arabs can talk real peace, on Israel's terms.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/841407.html

[Cleon]

They were not allowed to return.

Go figure. How interesting--it might even have something to do with why I made the analogy.


I am not saying that what happened to the palestinians was a "good thing" at all.


Just that it's "fair" and "reasonable."

[Darth Rotor]

Go figure. How interesting--it might even have something to do with why I made the analogy.



Just that it's "fair" and "reasonable."
We seem to have strayed from Rachel and ISM. Perhaps, given the topic, there is no help for that.

What impact did this play have in the UK, where Rickman opened it, and what impact do you think it will have in Seattle, and in the US in general?

It appears that in New York, the play has been postponed (http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2006/02/65689.html).

DR

[steverino]

Darth- Great link. Thanks for the Rachel Corrie play in NYC update. I'll be curious if it more welcome in Seattle. I would guess it is because she was from the area, Olympia, and also because the Jews here probably sympathise with Palestinians more than in NYC. Just a guess.