The Kiai master video

[ihaunter]

Anyone else notice during the demonstrations at the beginning of the video, there's one point where the kiai master "flips" a student a few times and then immediately starts "attacking" him again. The student came out of the flips facing away from the kiai master, unaware that he was still being "attacked", until he glances over and dutifully begins to react. I found that hilarious. This power must only work if your opponent is looking at you. The other martial artist must have had his eyes closed.

Reality hurts sometimes.

[zombiebex]

Which video?

[ihaunter]

From the commentary:

BE SEATED FOR THIS ONE

Reader Dave Marini:

I do not know if you have seen this video before, but it shows a Kiai Master – one of those knock-you-over-without-touching-you kinda martial artists – waging $5,000 that he could beat any MMA fighter who is a knock-you-over-by-hitting-you-really-hard kinda martial artist... I think the result speaks for itself...

Go to www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I).

[zombiebex]

Aaah. Thank you. And good catch.

[Kilgore Trout]

Well, the Kiai Master still has a 200-1 record. That's pretty impressive! And I give the Master credit. After the first knockdown and getting punched in the face, his powers clearly having little to no effect, he comes back for another pummeling.

[Blight]

The thing is, if his students were really getting hit as they act they do, they wouldn't be getting up so quickly from the shots. When someone hits you (someone who knows how to hit) and you're not used to getting hit hard, you wont react like they do. You react like the master did when he got hit in the face :P

You need to be really deluded to believe this would work

[Horatius]

What I like are all his students "trying" to punch him from about 5 feet away. At that range, you don't need to do anything to avoid getting hit!


And there are a lot of deluded people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tefEfolHzjo&NR


He "knocks him out" at one point while just "showing the move", when he wasn't actually doing the technique. Good student, that!

[Slimething]

... he comes back for another pummeling.

There was five grand riding on this, KT! :D

[Grimoire]

After taking the first punch square in the face, I can imagine him saying "He hit me! He actually hit me!" His body language was so bemused.

This guy really believed he had these special powers. He honestly thought that a real martial arts practitioner wouldn't be able to hit him. He put up absolutely no physical defense, or offense.

I'm quite sure my mother could take this guy out. Brilliant.

[osmosis]

That was priceless, especially the way he waved his arms around at first, as though casting a spell or something.

Wait, I know what happened! Something was blocking his chi. Maybe they had some kryptonite in the next room.

[BillyJoe]

He can still do it but he needs a specially prepared target.
That guy just didn't believe in his powers, so how could it possibly have worked.

[Zep]

WAAAAY TOOOO predictable, especially given the "demonstration" beforehand.

Some of the kids in my karate classes could have taken this Kiai-guy. He's not even taking a proper fighting stance to start with (heels flat on the floor = slow reaction times and off-balance), whereas the MMA guy clearly was. And he seemed VERY slow and easily moved off-centre as well. Over-confidence??

Even if you hadn't seen the demonstration, just the opening few seconds would have been enough to pick the winner.

[Soapy Sam]

Jedi mind tricks require a mind to work on of course.
I'd love to see a kiai master try this nonsense in a Maryhill pub.

[Ed Baehr]

I'm troubled by this. Did the "Master" actually believe that he could do this out in the real world? Were all of his students just yanking the old guy?
If he knew it was a scam, he must have known he would lose the $5,000. Whether or not it was his money, he must also have known that he would have the snot beat out of him. Randi talks about dowsers often being self-deluded but when they are wrong they rarely bleed. Yellow Bamboozle is a weasel deal but "students" pay to have people on the payroll fall down when they yell at them. At least that makes sense. This guy took a beating, was embarassed and is out 5 Gs.
I guess the question is, how do you get that deluded? I suppose that my signature is true.

[Soapy Sam]

Too many punches to the head, maybe?

[Horatius]

I'm troubled by this. Did the "Master" actually believe that he could do this out in the real world? Were all of his students just yanking the old guy?
...
Randi talks about dowsers often being self-deluded but when they are wrong they rarely bleed. ... This guy took a beating, was embarassed and is out 5 Gs.
I guess the question is, how do you get that deluded? I suppose that my signature is true.


I think this sort of delusion evolves over time. "Master" probably did real MA at some point. He became good at throwing people around, so that people got to the point where they expected to be thrown around - and "Master" started noticing (subconsciously?) that things were getting easier to do as he got "Better", and perhaps started thinking, "Maybe that ki stuff is true after all". A few students might have known they're taking it easy on him, but don't want to embarass him, so they kept quiet, and moved on to another teacher, while the new students who replaced them were the ones who wanted to believe in ki and all that.

A few years of feedback on both sides, and we have a guy who can make his students flip about like mexican jumping beans, because both sides expect that. Mutually supporting self-delusions.

[thaiboxerken]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQdJf-rTVFo

Darren Brown is also a kung fu master.

[thaiboxerken]

I think this sort of delusion evolves over time. "Master" probably did real MA at some point. He became good at throwing people around, so that people got to the point where they expected to be thrown around -

I've experienced a bit of this. I've been training for about 12 years now and was showing this new guy a takedown. He actually jumped to the ground himself before I even really touched him. I had to convince him that I didn't do anything yet. I didn't even claim to have superpowers, but I guess he assumed martial artists all have them after many years of training.

[Horatius]

I've experienced a bit of this. I've been training for about 12 years now and was showing this new guy a takedown. He actually jumped to the ground himself before I even really touched him. I had to convince him that I didn't do anything yet. I didn't even claim to have superpowers, but I guess he assumed martial artists all have them after many years of training.



I've seen similar things in my sword class. Students will slow down just as they strike, as they don't want to really hit you, or they're trying to "help" you. Quite annoying. The ones who really try and smash your head in are the good ones :)

Lucky for me, there are a few people in class who will swing away, and keep me on my toes :)

[thaiboxerken]

I think those people afraid to actually hit a person are a totally different species than those that jump to the ground when they think they are supposed to be thrown. One has to do with not wanting to hurt someone, the other is about bowing to authority.

Most of the new people in boxing or muay thai class don't try to actually hit people in the face or belly.

[Blight]

If you consider he had 200 wins, I doubt he was having contest daily, so we're talking years of people deluding themselves or playing along with him. It's enough to make anyone believe their own BS.

I think it's the same sort of reaction you get in any support environment. If you were a total a-hole and all the people around you were kissing your ass (happens to a lot of celebrities), you might be deluded to think you're a good guy.

If anyone is watching 30 Rock (TV Show on NBC), they sort of made a joke about it where one of the characters thought he was very good at video games because his "posse" was always letting him win.

[Ed Baehr]

Too many punches to the head, maybe?

Or too few.

[BillyJoe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQdJf-rTVFo

Darren Brown is also a kung fu master.Good one thai!
I won't spoil it by commenting.

[Horatius]

I think those people afraid to actually hit a person are a totally different species than those that jump to the ground when they think they are supposed to be thrown. One has to do with not wanting to hurt someone, the other is about bowing to authority.




That may be. I think it's more a difference of scale rather than type. It also involves the person doing the technique not noticing the other "helping" them along, which is probably harder to do in a pure throwing art.

If I didn't know people have a tendency to hold back when swinging a sword, I might start thinking that I'm just that much faster than everyone else, which would be proven woefully wrong first time I went and challenged a kendoka to a match.

[dakotajudo]

I think those people afraid to actually hit a person are a totally different species than those that jump to the ground when they think they are supposed to be thrown. One has to do with not wanting to hurt someone, the other is about bowing to authority.

No, it's more to do with wanting to go to the ground on your own terms, and not giving up your body to someone else's control.

[Joe Random]

Didn’t Touch-Of-Death Dillman once give the excuse that his woo technique failed to affect the target in a test because the target had his tongue in the wrong position? It wasn't Dillman saying he himself had done it wrong – the person Dillman was trying to test on supposedly had his (the target's) tongue in the wrong position inside his mouth, so he was immune to the deadly Touch O’ Death which would otherwise have laid him low?

[Rufo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQdJf-rTVFo

Darren Brown is also a kung fu master.
I do a bit of mentalism myself, and am currently trying these kind of things out, on a smaller scale. If anyone could actually do this kind of punch in the setting the kiai master is attempting... I would admire them greatly. But I don't think the master knows what he is doing at all.

[BillyJoe]

I do a bit of mentalism myself, and am currently trying these kind of things out, on a smaller scale. If anyone could actually do this kind of punch in the setting the kiai master is attempting... I would admire them greatly. But I don't think the master knows what he is doing at all.Not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying the video was a set-up?

[Rufo]

Not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying the video was a set-up?
No, what made you think that? What I'm saying is that a mentalist, like Derren Brown who thaiboxerken brought up, who knows he is decieving and can use the correct methods to do so, might stand a chance to perform a "ki-punch" in a less favorable setting than with cooperative students. Challenging a MMA fighter might be a bit extreme, but with the proper preparation and the right fighter - who knows, it might work.

The kiai master, on the other hand, probably believes that he can perform the punch for real. That is, he believes that there is energy emanating from his hands that will knock down his subject. He will not consciously use any of the methods a mentalist uses, and will probably not be able to perform the "punch" in less favorable settings.

[AZAtheist]

I showed the video to my wife. She said it reminded her of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOQUbmvb-kY

[matt.tansy]

Several years ago I saw a show on PBS about a chi master in China who would give public demonstrations of him taking on 10~15 of his students . The students would get one behind the other and push against the master, who would then use his woo-chi to push them all away. It was evident the students were just jumping backwards.

Before they showed this demonstration one of the students (an American) was interviewed. He said before being allowed to study with the woo-chi master, he had to attend the master's morning tai-chi sessions everyday for (if I recall correctly) 2 years.

I imagine after investing 2 years of our mornings to something you already believed in you would delude yourself into playing along.

[thaiboxerken]

The one man vs line of men push doesn't really require belief to work. It's a trick. The one guy only has to push the first guy in line up or to the side, then all of the force from everyone behind him doesn't matter.

[AudioFreak]

[QUOTE=AZAtheist;2462905]I showed the video to my wife. She said it reminded her of this video[QUOTE]

If only we could see the look of astonishment on the kitten's face at the realization that he'd just been pounced... The look of shock of the Kiai master in that video is just classic.

[Soapy Sam]

[quote=AZAtheist;2462905]I showed the video to my wife. She said it reminded her of this video[quote]

If only we could see the look of astonishment on the kitten's face at the realization that he'd just been pounced... The look of shock of the Kiai master in that video is just classic.

Did you see a different video from me? I can't see his face. The video qualuity is also poor. I see someone walking around with a professional camera which may have got the Kiai guy from the front. Any link to that?

[ond_magiker]

Didn’t Touch-Of-Death Dillman once give the excuse that his woo technique failed to affect the target in a test because the target had his tongue in the wrong position? It wasn't Dillman saying he himself had done it wrong – the person Dillman was trying to test on supposedly had his (the target's) tongue in the wrong position inside his mouth, so he was immune to the deadly Touch O’ Death which would otherwise have laid him low?

Yup. Here it is, straight from the horse's mouth. Tongue in the wrong position or wriggling your toes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI

If Dillman wasn't such a respected martial artist, I'd say he was just making it up.

[thaiboxerken]

Dillman did say something that I totally agree with. "If you don't believe, it won't work."

[jimbob]

Here is the Badscience thread on this:

http://badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2114

Again, it seems like suggestiblity and conformity, compare and contrast with this youtube video of "slaying with the spirit" (from a google search)


This video is quite loud, you might want to mute it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok4Hv0LQiIA

Any difference, except the in the practitioners apparel, and dental work?

I initially read it as Benny *Hill*

Jim

ETA:

Is this similar to "tickling" someone without touching them?

[Horatius]

If Dillman wasn't such a respected martial artist, I'd say he was just making it up.



He is just making it up. What that says about his "respected" status, I'll let you figure out.....

[AudioFreak]

Did you see a different video from me? I can't see his face. The video qualuity is also poor. I see someone walking around with a professional camera which may have got the Kiai guy from the front. Any link to that?

Well no, but you can tell from his mannerisms that he was floored that his magic didn't work.

[Pipirr]

this youtube video of "slaying with the spirit" (from a google search)


This video is quite loud, you might want to mute it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok4Hv0LQiIA


Wow. I haven't seen extreme 'slaying' like this before. Those people really jump about. Absolutely insane.

[alfaniner]

I showed the video to my wife. She said it reminded her of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOQUbmvb-kY

I had done something with that a while back by adding sounds from my martial arts class. Never thought to post it on YouTube until now though!

-zd3xBf4bcY