Why I don't read BuddhaNet

[Tsukasa Buddha]

How can a phenomenon so amazingly complex as consciousness develop from the simple meeting of two cells, the sperm and the egg? And now that parapsychology is a recognized branch of science, phenomena like telepathy are increasingly difficult to fit into the materialistic model of the mind.

I used to get e-books from them. But now I really don't trust what they say. I've been going through many popular buddhist sources and have been finding them all blathering this type of stupidity when it comes to rebirth. This type of thing is always holding me back from doing research.

[Dancing David]

Weeell it is an issue for me as well. I tend to just not read it and look for the gems in the manure pile.

[Ryokan]

Buddhanet.net is a Pure Land (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Land) site.

But not all their e-books are that bad, just read them with scepticism in mind.

[JetLeg]

I used to get e-books from them. But now I really don't trust what they say. I've been going through many popular buddhist sources and have been finding them all blathering this type of stupidity when it comes to rebirth. This type of thing is always holding me back from doing research.

The arguments for rebirth are not that stupid, but quite sophisticated :

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level4_deepening_understanding_path/rebirth_karma/buddhist_explanation_rebirth/part_place_rebirth_buddhism_topic_m.html

[Dancing David]

The arguments for rebirth are not that stupid, but quite sophisticated :

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level4_deepening_understanding_path/rebirth_karma/buddhist_explanation_rebirth/part_place_rebirth_buddhism_topic_m.html


I frind this to be rather mystical philosophic and all I can say is this;

The eightfold path focuses on the ere and now. It is foolish to worry about the future and the past is to learn from, the EFP is to be practised in the now.

[JetLeg]

It is not mystical at all, but philosophical.

[Dancing David]

I like buddhism, I just am personaly not a supporter of 'future lives', there is some support for it in the pali canon, but not a whole lot. Given the possible fact that the alleged historical budha taught there is not atman, i don't see how rebirth or transmigration makes sense (to me). So i feel the eightfold path is meant to be practised in the here and now.

[JetLeg]

The usual explanation is that you don't need an atman to have rebirth. What exists now is a stream of consciousness. Then this stream of consciousness passes into another body.

Saying that "you" take rebirth is not quite exact,more exactly- your stream of consciousness is associated with another body instead of yours.

[Dancing David]

Wello that is where I part ways from a lot of buddhism and other buddhists. The stream of consciousness is difficult to define in a living human, much less one that might transfer bodies.

[JetLeg]

Do you care to explain some more?

[Nosaj]

David,

I like buddhism, I just am personaly not a supporter of 'future lives', there is some support for it in the pali canon, but not a whole lot. Given the possible fact that the alleged historical budha taught there is not atman, i don't see how rebirth or transmigration makes sense (to me). So i feel the eightfold path is meant to be practised in the here and now.

This is certainly a difficult area for most people in regard to understanding Buddhism. As with most Eastern philosophies and religions, Buddhism does not view death as the final end of phenomena. In Buddhism, only nibbana is said to be the final end of phenomena in regards to the arising and passing away of beings (AN 10.58). According to the teachings on dependent origination, if there are sufficient conditions present, those conditions with inevitably result in future births (SN 12.35). Along with consciousness, craving plays a vital role in the renewal of beings and the production of future births.

To illustrate how craving could result in future births, the Buddha used a simile in which he compared the sustenance of a flame to that of a being at the time of death. Essentially, a flame burns in dependence on its fuel, and that fuel sustains it. When a flame burns in dependence on wood, for example, the wood sustains that flame. However, when a flame is swept up and carried away by the wind, the fuel of wind sustains that flame until it lands upon a new source of fuel. In the same way, a being at the time of death has the fuel of craving as its sustenance (SN 44.9).

The last consciousness of a being at the time of death, with the presence of craving, is the cause for the arising of a new consciousness. In the human realm, this would be in combination with the union of a healthy sperm and egg, although the Buddha often mentioned various other forms of birth in other realms of existence—none of which are free from suffering. Hence, the Buddha states, “Wherever there is a basis for consciousness, there is support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is the production of renewed existence” (SN 12.38).

Jason

[Dancing David]

I undersatnd that jason and it is a common thought framework for the time period. I happen to interpret the rebirth as being the consequences of choices, hurtfuls thought lead to hurtful acts in a cycle of spreading choices and consequences. certainly i am in disagreement with commonly held beliefs of the buddha and his time.

I wasn't sure if the lamp analogy was in the Pali canon, and I interpret it differently than most.

I feel that while even my consciousness may be the flame in the room, the room is not the same each time the lamp is lit. And while the flame is similar to the flme that has burned before, it is not the same flame.

So since I feel that way about my own personal stream of consciousness, I feel even more strongly about transmigration.

I am a materialist and a nihilist, so that influences my buddhism.

[Dancing David]

Do you care to explain some more?

I am a materialist in that i believe the universe is made of matter solely , although matter is energy.

I am a nihilist in that I believe all human thoughts are inherently false , we have to be careful to make sure those thought have validity in the material world.

So while I think reincanation would be nice, I see no evidence that it exists, while spirit would be nice, I see no evidence that it exists. i believe that the teachings of the alleged historical buddha are generally in agreement, but bnot always.

[Nosaj]

David,

I undersatnd that jason and it is a common thought framework for the time period. I happen to interpret the rebirth as being the consequences of choices, hurtfuls thought lead to hurtful acts in a cycle of spreading choices and consequences. certainly i am in disagreement with commonly held beliefs of the buddha and his time.

I understand your point of view, and since everything that the Buddha taught also applies to our present experience, there are tangible benefits to the practice that are observable without any need to believe in the doctrine of rebirth. In fact, when I first began own my study of Buddhist doctrines, philolosophy, and practices, I also did not place very much stock in the doctrine of rebirth.

However, after seriously practicing for about five years or so, I began to develop a deeper understanding of the importance that the doctrine of rebirth plays in the overall practice. Since then, I have adopted the possiblity of rebirth into my world view for a variety of reasons. That being said, I do not believe that such a belief is 100% necessary, but it is an important part of the practice.

Jason

[Dancing David]

:cool:

I have been on a long spiritual journey through shamanism, ceremonial magic and neopagan traditions before I came back to buddhism. So perhaps my process was the reverse of yours.

[lolurigeller]

It is not mystical at all, but philosophical.

It is mystical, there are these metaphysical aspects to buddhism just like any other religion.

[TuftedPuffin]

It is mystical, there are these metaphysical aspects to buddhism just like any other religion.

THANK YOU!

[JetLeg]

THANK YOU!

I meant not buddhism in general, but the specific link I posted, whose nature is philosophic and not mystical.

[JetLeg]

David,



This is certainly a difficult area for most people in regard to understanding Buddhism. As with most Eastern philosophies and religions, Buddhism does not view death as the final end of phenomena. In Buddhism, only nibbana is said to be the final end of phenomena in regards to the arising and passing away of beings (AN 10.58). According to the teachings on dependent origination, if there are sufficient conditions present, those conditions with inevitably result in future births (SN 12.35). Along with consciousness, craving plays a vital role in the renewal of beings and the production of future births.

To illustrate how craving could result in future births, the Buddha used a simile in which he compared the sustenance of a flame to that of a being at the time of death. Essentially, a flame burns in dependence on its fuel, and that fuel sustains it. When a flame burns in dependence on wood, for example, the wood sustains that flame. However, when a flame is swept up and carried away by the wind, the fuel of wind sustains that flame until it lands upon a new source of fuel. In the same way, a being at the time of death has the fuel of craving as its sustenance (SN 44.9).

The last consciousness of a being at the time of death, with the presence of craving, is the cause for the arising of a new consciousness. In the human realm, this would be in combination with the union of a healthy sperm and egg, although the Buddha often mentioned various other forms of birth in other realms of existence—none of which are free from suffering. Hence, the Buddha states, “Wherever there is a basis for consciousness, there is support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is the production of renewed existence” (SN 12.38).

Jason

In tibetan buddhism, when a person reaches nirvana, his stream of consciousness continues, the analogy of the lamp is not used. When one reaches nirvana, he simply is in a better state of being.

So I can't understand what's so good about theravada understanding of nirvana. We are reborn endlessly, and the goal to reach is nirvana, which is the ultimate suicide? Materealists think that when they die, they are no more, they are annihilated, "the flame is extinguished". So that is the noble goal of nirvana??

[Dancing David]

The goal of nibbanna is a state of free action that does not promote suffering.

[Nosaj]

JetLeg,

In tibetan buddhism, when a person reaches nirvana, his stream of consciousness continues, the analogy of the lamp is not used. When one reaches nirvana, he simply is in a better state of being.

So I can't understand what's so good about theravada understanding of nirvana. We are reborn endlessly, and the goal to reach is nirvana, which is the ultimate suicide? Materealists think that when they die, they are no more, they are annihilated, "the flame is extinguished". So that is the noble goal of nirvana??

This is a very common misconception that most people with little knowledge of the Pali Canon have in regard to Theravada. It never ceases to amaze me that the majority of people who discuss subjects such as Buddhism, especially Theravada, have very little knowledge of the actual subject. I certainly do not mind critiques and debates about what the Buddha taught, or of specific schools such as Theravada, but it is difficult to have a decent conversation when nobody really has a correct understanding of either. The trouble is, I do not have the time to systematically go through each and ever misconception and correct them; however, I will try to give a short explanation here.

So, what exactly is Nibbana? The Third Noble Truth focuses on the cessation of suffering. The cessation of suffering is Nibbana. According to Nyanatiloka Thera’s Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, Nibbana literally means “extinction, to cease blowing, to become extinguished.” Nibbana is the state of final deliverance, the extinction of craving (AN 10.60), the extinguishing of lust, the extinguishing of hatred, and the extinguishing of delusion (SN 38.1). Nibbana is without a cause, unborn, unmade, and therefore, it is unconditional. Nibbana lies outside of the world as we know it, outside of conditioned existence, outside of space and time, and as such, it lies beyond cause and effect. Furthermore, as Piyadassi Thera echoes in The Buddha’s Ancient Path, all things conventional or subjective are relative, however, Nibbana being neither conventional nor subjective has no relativities, and thus in a sense, absolute (73). The Buddha himself makes clear that the deliverance found within this truth is unshakable (MN 140), and at one point he even declares that, "Reality, monks, is a name for Nibbana" (SN 4.195).

In one instance, the Buddha gives an almost unbelievable and yet incredible description of Nibbana, clearly describing it as being beyond the world of common experience. The Buddha declares that, “Nibbana is that base where there is neither earth, nor water, nor heat, nor air; neither the base of the infinity of space, nor the base of the infinity of consciousness, nor the base of nothingness, nor the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another; neither sun nor moon. Here there is no coming, no going, no standing still; no passing away and no being reborn. It is not established, not moving, without support. Just this is the end of suffering” (Ud 8.1).

In addition, the Buddha described two elements of Nibbana. The Nibbana element with residue remaining is the destruction of lust, hatred, and delusion attained by a Noble One (arahant) while still alive, with the residue itself being a reference to the five aggregates. The Nibbana element without residue remaining is the final passing away of a Noble One in which “all that is felt, not being delighted, will become cool right here” (Iti 44). As for the fate of a Noble One after death, the Buddha refused to answer in terms of existence, nonexistence, both, or neither. While reason might suggest that since the five aggregates are the constituents of subjective experience that cease with the full attainment of Nibbana, Nibbana must be a state of nonexistence, a state of nothingness. Bhikkhu Bodhi, however, points out that, “… no text in the Nikayas ever states this. To the contrary, the Nikayas consistently refer to Nibbana by terms that refer to actualities. It is an element (dhatu), a base (ayatana), a reality (dhamma), a state (pada), and so on” (In the Buddha’s Words: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon 319).

Jason

[Nosaj]

JetLeg,

In tibetan buddhism, when a person reaches nirvana, his stream of consciousness continues, the analogy of the lamp is not used. When one reaches nirvana, he simply is in a better state of being.

I understand you are partial to Tibetan Buddhism, but it would not hurt to also do some research into all the various schools and texts, and in particular, how certain doctrines have evolved over time.

Jason

[JetLeg]

Elohim, would you not prefer to continue your stream of consciousness when reaching nirvana rather than becoming something mysterious, and not understood?

[Nosaj]

JetLeg,

Elohim, would you not prefer to continue your stream of consciousness when reaching nirvana rather than becoming something mysterious, and not understood?

You are talking about this "stream of consciousness" like it is an existing entity. If you understand paticca-samuppada, then you will understand why this is incorrect.


Jason