Teens expose no vitamin C in the vitamin drink

[Skeptic Ginger]

This is great. Two teens did a high school science project and found there was no vitamin C to speak of in the New Zealand drink, Ribena. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070327/wl_asia_afp/nzealandconsumerdrinkribena_070327062942) It snowballed into a consumer fraud court case and the company making the drink just got fined in a New Zealand court over it.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Perhaps it was homeopathic vitamin C?

[El Greco]

Perhaps it was homeopathic vitamin C?

Nah, it can't be. These are the good guys, who NEVER NEVER NEVER cheat the public. It's Glaxo Smith Kline. They can't possibly be deluding people, can they ? (insert huge irony smilie here, for those who believe that multinational pharmaceuticals are something like saints).

[Ivor the Engineer]

Here's what was on the Google Cache for a search for: 'ribena vitamin C'. I had to use the cache because the page has been pulled (for some reason:D )

Google cache of: www.ribena.co.uk/ribena_com/ng/taste_nutrition/vitamin_c.html

Ribena is healthy, nutritious and provides you with a valuable source of vitamin C.


The "C" Factor

Did you know... that blackcurrants contain nearly four times as much vitamin C as oranges?

Most of us need to take vitamin C regularly, because we can't store it in our bodies in appreciable amounts (it's water soluble, you see). A normal balanced diet should provide for our daily needs, but there are times when we need more — and in any case, vitamin C is easily destroyed during food storage, preparation and cooking.

Active teenagers, growing children and expectant mothers can all benefit from extra supplies of vitamin C to, for example, help build strong bones and good teeth. And many people now accept that vitamin C is important in the immune system, to help build up your resistance and fight off bacteria and viruses.

Vitamin C is also a "free radical scavenger". This means it helps to prevent tissue damage by reacting with the potentially damaging free radicals and oxygen compounds that are generated as by-products of your normal metabolism.

As you can see, vitamin C is the business.

And it's all there in Ribena. In fact, each serving of Ribena Blackcurrant fruit juice provides the full Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA) of vitamin C.

Not so much mislead as out and out lie!

[Darat]

I am astonished about this one since it seems to have been a complete lie, I expect companies to be less then 100% honest in disclosing information and talking up insignificant facts but to make such a bare faced lie.

And wasn't it great that two kids did this? :D

Mind you Vimto is so much nicer then Ribena.

[Darat]

Here's what was on the Google Cache for a search for: 'ribena vitamin C'. I had to use the cache because the page has been pulled (for some reason:D )

Google cache of: www.ribena.co.uk/ribena_com/ng/taste_nutrition/vitamin_c.html



Not so much mislead as out and out lie!

On the UK site if you navigate through the flash stuff you can see the ingredients and they do list "Vitamin C", is the UK version different I wonder?

[Taffer]

And wasn't it great that two kids did this? :D

Yes, indeed. I heard about this on the radio this morning. In the interview, the kids sounded rather pleased with themselves, and cited that it is nice to know that even two little kids can go up against a big company and show them they're in the wrong.

[JamesM]

On the UK site if you navigate through the flash stuff you can see the ingredients and they do list "Vitamin C", is the UK version different I wonder?
I was so shocked by the vitamin C thing that I just went and looked, too. Check out the non-flash (http://www.ribena.co.uk/accessible/our_drinks/index.html) version here.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

How did they determine it had no vitamin C?

[richardm]

On the UK site if you navigate through the flash stuff you can see the ingredients and they do list "Vitamin C", is the UK version different I wonder?

The manufacturers have rushed to assure consumers that the British version has indeed got vitamin C in it. Lots of it. Bags of the stuff. You've never seen so much vitamin C. Honest, Guv.

Which is all very well but presumably the NZ guys said the same thing. Should be an interesting experiment for school chem lessons this week (there are lots of varieties of Ribena to try out too).

[richardm]

How did they determine it had no vitamin C?

Either a fairly simple test (http://www.life.uiuc.edu/boast1/sciencelessons/vitaminc.htm) (they used proper titration kit rather than an eyedropper) or some alternative method (http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/s/scurvy/symptoms.htm)

[sphenisc]

Either a fairly simple test (http://www.life.uiuc.edu/boast1/sciencelessons/vitaminc.htm) (they used proper titration kit rather than an eyedropper) or some alternative method (http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/s/scurvy/symptoms.htm)

I was surprised to learn that the interference of ascorbic acid on the starch-iodine reaction wasn't noted until 1989. It seems odd that such an apparently simple effect could have escaped notice.

http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/65/3/281.pdf

[Skeptic Ginger]

So if I were in the UK, I'd buy a couple bottles preferably that had been on the shelf since before this all started and see if the C was there and is it there now. Both tests should be interesting.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Now the cached page on Ribena is gone too. The "non flash" link is still there.

[Skeptic Ginger]

In which countries can Ribena be bought?

Ribena is currently sold in 22 countries, including: Caribbean, UK, Eire, Denmark, Greece, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Yemen, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Malaysia, Australia, New Zealand, Kenya, Nigeria, Mauritius, China, Hong Kong, Japan. So, even when you are on holiday you can enjoy your favourite juice drink!In case anyone besides me was curious where they sell the stuff.

[Skeptic Ginger]

GSK makes some other weird stuff.

* Major Markets
* Poland
Rutinoscorbin is a range of products containing vitamin C and rutosidum for stimulating the body's natural immunity. (http://www.gsk.com/products/consumer_healthcare/dw_rutinoscorbin.htm)

Medacalm is a registered herbal medicine for the treatment of typical IBS symptoms like bloating, pain, constipation and diarrhoea....Medacalm is effective because of its innovative oleo-gel capsule technique which allows the transport of the peppermint oil into the small intestine and permits a time-release effect throughout the whole bowel. (http://www.gsk.com/products/consumer_healthcare/dw_medacalm.htm) Sold in Germany and Austria.

Seems they have quite the line of woo. Not that I know if peppermint oil is useful but I can guess.

Here's the link, (http://www.gsk.com/products/index.htm) I'm out of time. Go to "Our Products: Consumer Brands" with the drop down menu, right hand side about mid-page to check out some more.

They make vaccines I use all the time. Those are FDA checked though, so it isn't comparable.

But it is interesting considering how many people claim "Big Pharma" is evil and here is the same Big Pharma making some of those 'supplements'.

[geni]

GSK makes some other weird stuff.


GSK are the second biggest pharamcutical company on the planet.

[geni]

So if I were in the UK, I'd buy a couple bottles preferably that had been on the shelf since before this all started and see if the C was there and is it there now. Both tests should be interesting.

I doubt it. The bulk cost of vitiam C is pretty low so I suspect the problem is likely due to someone messing up a calculation somewhere and no one ever getting around to checking.

[The Atheist]

Didn't expect to see a thread on this subject in here!

This has been huge news here, but I hadn't realised it had made international news.

The girls are both classmates of my boy, so I'm well up with this one. It all started as a science fair project nearly three years ago, when the pair decided to measure the relative benefits of fruit drinks.

Not only did they discover the vitamin C fraud, they also found that Ribena has more sugar than Coke and just about any drink you can buy. They have certainly achieved instant celebrity status over here, and deservedly so.

As well as being fined a couple of hundred grand, GSK has to take out full-page advertisements in all major dailies telling the truth about Ribena. The advertisements must be court-approved prior to placement.

Yeah, imagine that - a giant multinational pharmaceuticals firm lying to the public.

[Taffer]

Didn't expect to see a thread on this subject in here!

This has been huge news here, but I hadn't realised it had made international news.

The girls are both classmates of my boy, so I'm well up with this one. It all started as a science fair project nearly three years ago, when the pair decided to measure the relative benefits of fruit drinks.

Not only did they discover the vitamin C fraud, they also found that Ribena has more sugar than Coke and just about any drink you can buy. They have certainly achieved instant celebrity status over here, and deservedly so.

As well as being fined a couple of hundred grand, GSK has to take out full-page advertisements in all major dailies telling the truth about Ribena. The advertisements must be court-approved prior to placement.

Yeah, imagine that - a giant multinational pharmaceuticals firm lying to the public.

Hey, that's cool to know, TA. Which school did they go to? I missed it on the news.

[The Atheist]

Hey, that's cool to know, TA. Which school did they go to? I missed it on the news.

Pakuranga College.

I've made sure my boy told them under no circumstances to go anywhere near Otago Uni!

(I suggest a GSK scholarship is unlikely.)

[Skeptic Ginger]

Didn't expect to see a thread on this subject in here!

This has been huge news here, but I hadn't realised it had made international news.

The girls are both classmates of my boy, so I'm well up with this one. It all started as a science fair project nearly three years ago, when the pair decided to measure the relative benefits of fruit drinks.

Not only did they discover the vitamin C fraud, they also found that Ribena has more sugar than Coke and just about any drink you can buy. They have certainly achieved instant celebrity status over here, and deservedly so.

As well as being fined a couple of hundred grand, GSK has to take out full-page advertisements in all major dailies telling the truth about Ribena. The advertisements must be court-approved prior to placement.

Yeah, imagine that - a giant multinational pharmaceuticals firm lying to the public.How wonderful of a learning experience for your son and his class!

[The Atheist]

How wonderful of a learning experience for your son and his class!Oh yeah, all the kids in the class are basking in the reflected glory!

He knows a tv star! Two in fact. Pakuranga College rules at present, I tell you.

I don't know the girls at all, but I'm assured that they were popular as down-to-earth, pleasant and friendly young girls before any of this happened. Great stuff, just a couple of Kiwi kids. (One Indian, one Chinese! ;) )

[Taffer]

I've made sure my boy told them under no circumstances to go anywhere near Otago Uni!

Aww, we're not all that bad. Drunken, sure, disorderly, absolutely, a-burden-on-tax-payers, definately, but bad? Nah. :D

[Ove]

Errmmm i don't get it. Vitamin C is naturally in fruit. IF Ribena contains Blaccurrant Juice there SHOULD be Vitamin C or?
This being said most people eating a varied diet will get more than their full share af all vitamins and really don't need supplements. AND if i want to drink something with a lot of vitamins i'll drink fresh fruit juice, which i do, daily... :) (not for the vitamins though, i LIKE the stuff ;) )

[Earthborn]

IF Ribena contains Blaccurrant Juice there SHOULD be Vitamin C or?Yes, but it tends to degrade. If the blackcurrants aren't processed quickly enough after harvest, or if the drinks don't appear on the shelves quickly enough, or if Ribena sterilises the drink for too long, then it is entirely possible that most of the vitamin c is gone. They basically admitted it on their website (as quoted by Ivor the Engineer): "vitamin C is easily destroyed during food storage, preparation and cooking."

[JonnyFive]

Perhaps they use a special type of blackcurrants, and simply forgot to replace the word "oranges" with the word "chalk" when talking about what it has four times the vitamin C of.

These things happen, after all. ;)

[Eos of the Eons]

This points to the fact that "food products" are not tested for what they claim is in them.

The makers of Ribena pleaded guilty Tuesday to misleading the New Zealand public about the drink's health benefits

Pretty much ALL makers of food products with overblown "health benefits" need to apologize. But, there is no time or governing body to test all the claims that people make about their junk.

We need more kids with time on their hands to expose all the health food/supplement claims out there with grade school science. It's a great that it can be done so simply, and the kids get well deserved attention for it.

[Eos of the Eons]

Yes, but it tends to degrade. If the blackcurrants aren't processed quickly enough after harvest, or if the drinks don't appear on the shelves quickly enough, or if Ribena sterilises the drink for too long, then it is entirely possible that most of the vitamin c is gone. They basically admitted it on their website (as quoted by Ivor the Engineer): "vitamin C is easily destroyed during food storage, preparation and cooking."

This plays into altie claims that all foods are deficient in their vitamins because of processing. Eat only raw, straight off the plant it is grown on!

This is completely untrue. They just exagerated the amount and benefits. I doubt most of the drinks had any real juice in them.

The company also admitted it may have misled customers in advertisements saying the blackcurrants in Ribena syrup had four times the vitamin C of oranges

[articulett]

Here's ribena's spin:
http://www.ribena.co.uk/newsflash/ribena.html

Here's how much they paid in a fine for misleading the public.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6498479.stm

Now, does anyone have a video or audio clip source. This would make a great lesson plan for my students.

Thanks for posting Skepticgirl. A great story.

[Eos of the Eons]

Yeah, okay. So what does Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) break down to then? What is its shelf life then?

Ascorbic acid is C6H8O6


Glass packed orange juice provides poor retention of vitamin C, losing 10% after 4 months of storage.

http://www.ultimatecitrus.com/vitaminc.html

10% is not ALL. It's barely any.

[The Atheist]

Here's a video of the legendary Kiwi chicks! (http://tvnz.co.nz/view/video_popup_windows_skin/1042058)

[articulett]

Here's a video of the legendary Kiwi chicks! (http://tvnz.co.nz/view/video_popup_windows_skin/1042058)

Excellent! Thanks.

[T.A.M.]

This will make for interesting small talk when I talk to the rep in my office next week (i see about 30 reps come to my office per week).

TAM:)

[tkingdoll]

they also found that Ribena has more sugar than Coke and just about any drink you can buy.

Sorry to stomp on the coup of these two girls, but a British programme discovered there is more sugar in Ribena than anything else in the universe about 20 years, as part of the classic TV show That's Life.

Esther Rantzen, the host, had a bee in her bonnet about Ribena because it was marketed as being suitable for babies and toddlers when in fact it had such high sugar content it was detrimental to their tooth development.

Big hoo-hah, resulting in Ribena completely removing their 'baby Ribena' brand and remarketing. Might have been called Toothkind, although that could have been a more recent incarnation.

I seem to recall them sending some schoolkids to interview the head honchos about it - IIRC correctly the kids had run the same sugar tests as the NZ girls have done.

Funny how Ribena have managed to learn precisely zero since then. And still people buy the stuff. Including me, I love it.

[Pidge]

Funny how Ribena have managed to learn precisely zero since then. And still people buy the stuff. Including me, I love it.

I tend to buy a local (NZ) made equivalent - which has about twice the Blackcurrent content of Ribena.. (Ribena (as sold in NZ) has about 25% Blackcurrant juice, where as the Barker & Halls stuff has about 45%.)

Oh, and the B&H blackcurrant concentrate costs less than Ribena...

[Taffer]

I tend to buy a local (NZ) made equivalent - which has about twice the Blackcurrent content of Ribena.. (Ribena (as sold in NZ) has about 25% Blackcurrant juice, where as the Barker & Halls stuff has about 45%.)

Oh, and the B&H blackcurrant concentrate costs less than Ribena...

Yeah, that B&H stuff is much nicer, too. :)

[Ove]

Sorry to stomp on the coup of these two girls, but a British programme discovered there is more sugar in Ribena than anything else in the universe about 20 years, as part of the classic TV show That's Life.

Esther Rantzen, the host, had a bee in her bonnet about Ribena because it was marketed as being suitable for babies and toddlers when in fact it had such high sugar content it was detrimental to their tooth development.

Big hoo-hah, resulting in Ribena completely removing their 'baby Ribena' brand and remarketing. Might have been called Toothkind, although that could have been a more recent incarnation.

I seem to recall them sending some schoolkids to interview the head honchos about it - IIRC correctly the kids had run the same sugar tests as the NZ girls have done.

Funny how Ribena have managed to learn precisely zero since then. And still people buy the stuff. Including me, I love it.

:) :) Good old Esther, i thought i was the only one old enough to remember her. It was amongst some of the first that caught our attention when we got Cable TV back then and we really enjoyed "That's Life". We need more like her theese days, i specifikally remember her combat against "Guar Gum" products, yet theese days you see the cr** being sold again as if nothing had happened.

[The Atheist]

Sorry to stomp on the coup of these two girls, but a British programme discovered there is more sugar in Ribena than anything else in the universe about 20 years, as part of the classic TV show That's Life.

No stomping involved, the coup was the vitamin c part. GSK isn't apologising publicly for the sugar.

[Tanja]

I tried Ribena once, and thought it was the most disgusting drink I ever had (actually, since then it has become the third most disgusting drink I ever tried, after an Erithrean fermented drink, and Russian kvas, which I tried a week ago)

[Ove]

I tried Ribena once, and thought it was the most disgusting drink I ever had (actually, since then it has become the third most disgusting drink I ever tried, after an Erithrean fermented drink, and Russian kvas, which I tried a week ago)

The only sensible thing to drink in Russia is Vodka :)

[tkingdoll]

No stomping involved, the coup was the vitamin c part. GSK isn't apologising publicly for the sugar.

I never said they were. They didn't apologise back in the 80s, either. But you said they also found that Ribena has more sugar than Coke and just about any drink you can buy. and I wanted to point out that was already exposed as they may not have been aware of that.

[Folly]

:) :) Good old Esther, i thought i was the only one old enough to remember her. It was amongst some of the first that caught our attention when we got Cable TV back then and we really enjoyed "That's Life". We need more like her theese days, i specifikally remember her combat against "Guar Gum" products, yet theese days you see the cr** being sold again as if nothing had happened.

What's the problem with guar gum? I wouldn't want to eat vast quantities, but I wouldn't want to eat vast quantities of salt either.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Applause to the kids!

TA, is there an inspiring teacher that deserves congratulations also? (I'm not suggesting the kids didn't do the project, but that maybe someone has been teaching good critical thinking skills.)

[The Atheist]

Applause to the kids!

TA, is there an inspiring teacher that deserves congratulations also? (I'm not suggesting the kids didn't do the project, but that maybe someone has been teaching good critical thinking skills.)

No, but good point.

The annual science fair is open to all 14/15 year old high school pupils to enter. They must think up the idea and do all of the work themselves.

There's no real curriculum on critical thinking, but then again, science is taught as fact and creationism isn't allowed in the classroom, so maybe it's just a by-product of factual learning.

Then again, this is the high school whose principal instituted the six-day week. Fortunately, and completely unsurprisingly, that idea died a natural death when none of the kids knew what day of the week it was. Pakuranga isn't rated in the the top 20% of schools on academic performance and I'm pretty sure that this is the school's sole claim to fame from an academic view.

[Ove]

What's the problem with guar gum? I wouldn't want to eat vast quantities, but I wouldn't want to eat vast quantities of salt either.

LOL no, as far as i remember the problem was that it was marketed as a wonder slim-fast drug (and still is) and that it could have some serious health problems used in that way.

[Folly]

LOL no, as far as i remember the problem was that it was marketed as a wonder slim-fast drug (and still is) and that it could have some serious health problems used in that way.
Ahh. Yes, I certainly did find comments about problems with using it as a weight loss tool, up to and including death. The first few pages of google hits for guar gum either talk about those problems or are pages about composition/physical properties. I'm disappointed to hear it's still marketed that way, although it's nice that even some fairly flaky sites say it's useless or potentially dangerous.

[Ove]

Ahh. Yes, I certainly did find comments about problems with using it as a weight loss tool, up to and including death. The first few pages of google hits for guar gum either talk about those problems or are pages about composition/physical properties. I'm disappointed to hear it's still marketed that way, although it's nice that even some fairly flaky sites say it's useless or potentially dangerous.

Yes, unfortunately the slimming business contains some of the most cynical crooks on the market and unfortunately owerweight people tend to fall for scams quite easily. We really need a "Esther" theese days....