Skeptic given a negitive review

[Richard]

This reporter never called me about this....

---------------------
To believe or not to believe?

By Brendan Shanahan

March 30, 2007 12:00
Article from: The Daily Telegraph

On ACA the spokesman for the organisation, Richard Saunders, was eager to reassure viewers that he regarded the family in Guildford as merely misguided, not bad.

"I have no doubt that someone with very good intentions has done this,'' he said.

It must have broken Mr Saunders' heart, therefore, when he found himself duty bound to point out that "there's never been one authenticated miracle in the history of the world, ever.''

He tells us this not - supposedly - because he likes to crush the faith of a grieving family, but because "unfortunately, the ramifications are often very serious and people will believe all sorts of things.''

It is interesting to note that the sceptics here are happy to credit themselves with a gift they decry as fraudulent in others: the ability to see into the future.

More at:

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21468991-5001031,00.html

[Overman]

I remember my the first critical review I read of my band....It hurt!

Remember though, thats the business, if you are going to create anything, people are going to critique and critsize it...


Speaking of which, what a horrible job, being a critic. There should be more critics of critics.

[fuelair]

This reporter never called me about this....

---------------------
To believe or not to believe?

By Brendan Shanahan

March 30, 2007 12:00
Article from: The Daily Telegraph

On ACA the spokesman for the organisation, Richard Saunders, was eager to reassure viewers that he regarded the family in Guildford as merely misguided, not bad.

"I have no doubt that someone with very good intentions has done this,'' he said.

It must have broken Mr Saunders' heart, therefore, when he found himself duty bound to point out that "there's never been one authenticated miracle in the history of the world, ever.''

He tells us this not - supposedly - because he likes to crush the faith of a grieving family, but because "unfortunately, the ramifications are often very serious and people will believe all sorts of things.''

It is interesting to note that the sceptics here are happy to credit themselves with a gift they decry as fraudulent in others: the ability to see into the future.

More at:

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21468991-5001031,00.html
When I saw Daily Telegraph, I assumed Brit. newspaper which I was under the impression had a good reputation then find out Australian (not a problem) associated with Faux Pnews (so what did you really expect from an org that stomps its' feet on and rakes in its' money from sorrow, ugliness and stupidity - not that there is anything wrong with that:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: !!)

[CFLarsen]

I sent this:

Dear Brendan,

I have read your article several times, and I have to admit I am left feeling a bit confused.

I could be wrong, but I get the impression that you think that it is better to leave a person with a false belief that a miracle has occurred, than to tell the person that his beliefs are not grounded in reality.

I really hope this is not the case. Because then, you would be advocating that any con man should be allowed to trick people into believing all kinds of falsehoods, as long as it made them feel good.

Is that really your stance?

Sincerely,
Claus Larsen
Editor, SkepticReport.com

Let's see if it gets published.

(Incidentally, they write that "Location" is optional, but you have to fill in the field.... :rolleyes:)

[Senex]

This reporter never called me about this....


http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21468991-5001031,00.html



They're the God-is-dead-botherers...

One wonders who the real zealots are here: the family who believe they see evidence for their son's existence in the afterlife, or those who feel the need to contradict them on national television.
What never seems to occur to sceptics is that many who believe in miracles and the like - not to mention those eccentrics who can't accept a barren, mechanistic universe - are quite aware that the existence of these phenomena is illogical and goes against everything they know to be true about the natural world.

They just don't care.

Being a professional sceptic is like paying for a ticket to the wrestling only to go around telling everyone that it's rigged.

The smugness of sceptics, their certainty in their own rightness, more closely resembles the religious fanaticism they claim to despise than the "concern'' for the community they espouse.

There's no doubt belief can lead to terrible consequences.

But, from what I've seen, not believing can be just as tragic.

We don't believe god is dead; he never existed. :confused:

I just happen to be listening to Eleanor Rigby as I'm writing this. Whoever wrote this I bet wouldn't knock the Beatles despite the contradiction. The same thought given in a popular format would not be challenged. I don't fully understand the wrestling metaphor. It seems the person who wrote this believes that some lies are best left unexposed for entertainment purposes. I guess this is the Montel Williams and Larry King kind of person who would put Sylvia Browne on their show knowing darn well they are spewing crap out of their mouth.

I'd love to hear what the "terrible consequences" are. I'm not smug. I'm sad perhaps.

Keep fighting the good battle :)

[Lonewulf]

Why is a lack of belief "tragic"?

Oh, right, because we'll go around killing everyone. That's right.

[CFLarsen]

It got published! :)

[athon]

It's there, Claus.

I wish I could say I'm shocked by this, but hell, Daily Telegraph? It's the newspaper equivalent of ACA and TT.

Athon

[tkingdoll]

The wrestling comment is weird as hell. Wrestling only continued to be popular because it was touted as genuine - if people had known from the start it was rigged then it wouldn't have lasted five minutes. But once they're hooked, they stay hooked. It's the whole package that makes wrestling popular: the girls, the costumes, the music, the beer. If you put two guys in a ring and say to the audience "it's fixed but watch them pretend to push each other around" and don't have any of the trappings, you don't have much of a product. So the only reason it's bad to tell folk it's fixed is because some promoters won't make any money.

Anyway, believing wrestling isn't fixed doesn't actually affect your real life. You don't live by the wrestling moral code. You don't lie awake at nights crying because you will never see your favourite wrestler again.

Weird, weird argument.

[Moochie]

See! We have morons in Australia, too.

M.

[articulett]

I hardly think of the world as barren and mechanistic... I think the understanding brought by science is unendingly fascinating. Aren't the religious folks the one waiting for some next life while trying not to "bite from the tree of knowledge" in this one? And which skeptics are smug and "certain of their rightness". I'd say, they have no claims of "higher knowledge", and don't think anyone else does either--though actual evidence wouldn't be discarded. It would be refined, honed, and maybe even exploited.

I think it's disturbing to be pondering magical realms and what ifs when the facts are so much more interesting. Sure, souls sound like a cool idea--but they just make no sense. Life is precious because it is not eternal. And the truth is precious because it's the same for everyone no matter what you believe. The earth was spherical long before humans started walking upon it...and will be afterwards too. Just as 2+2=4 long before humans defined the terms and figured out math.

I blame religion for making "belief" something good...and "doubt" something bad. What's wrong with not wanting to fool yourself? If nothing else, science has shown we humans are rather good at that. I don't like the idea that humans are encouraged to prop up others misguided beliefs. I want no part of the lie--or even a part of the notion that "faith" is something good. I sure don't see what it's good for. Facts are much more useful.

[osmosis]

my comment got published too, hooray!

[articulett]

Great responses.

I'm sorry that "anti-skeptic" prejudice is infesting Australia in addition to the United states. Claus, we're depending upon you to keep the woo at bay in Scandinavia.

[negativ]

Remember though, thats the business, if you are going to create anything, people are going to critique and critsize it...


Speaking of which, what a horrible job, being a critic. There should be more critics of critics.

Remember, noone ever erected a monument to a critic.

[Aussie Thinker]

LOL... I even got in a reply !

"The saddest thing about this article is how truly it reflects what a lot of people think about sceptics. We are generally seen as curmudgeon spoilsports. It is so sad that critical and logical thinking are so demeaned in our society. Humans are amazingly clever and do and invent the most wonderful things, it’s a pity the most inane of these inventions, superstitions, paranormal phenomena and religions are so revered. I long for the day Brendan (or his like) write an article lamenting why people are so gullible."

Not one reply supporting his inane comments !

[CFLarsen]

Great responses.

I'm sorry that "anti-skeptic" prejudice is infesting Australia in addition to the United states. Claus, we're depending upon you to keep the woo at bay in Scandinavia.

Fortunately, I'm not alone. :)

[Lonewulf]

My review of this thread:

It's "negative", not "negitive".

[SomeGuy]

My review of this thread:

It's "negative", not "negitive".

Skeptic basher!

[Lonewulf]

Skeptic basher!

I'd claim that I'm a grammar nazi, but unlike some people, I'm not big on being comparable with the nazi political party.

I'm more of a spelling communist.

[Richard]

Thank you all. I am most pi$$ed off that the reporter just got things wrong. However, I am so grateful that you, my true friends and the friends of reason have come to my aid.

OK.. to see what a monster I am, take a look at:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/499742/

[CFLarsen]

Thank you all. I am most pi$$ed off that the reporter just got things wrong. However, I am so grateful that you, my true friends and the friends of reason have come to my aid.

OK.. to see what a monster I am, take a look at:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/499742/

Are you the only Australian without John Farnham hair?






(scurries away)

[Richard]

Are you the only Australian without John Farnham hair?
(scurries away)

That was almost 20 years ago! Ha.. they put heaps of stuff in my hair in the TV studio. God I look young...... sigh..... Still have the hair, not so dark.

[Senex]

That was some pretty impressive prehistoric paper animals you made. That rascal moose who ate the birthday children's names kept trying to upstage you the entire time but once he had no text to eat you wooped him.

That was fun to watch. How old do you think the woman in the sweater is today? Is she married? Do you still keep in touch? :)

[Richard]

That was fun to watch. How old do you think the woman in the sweater is today? Is she married? Do you still keep in touch? :)

Marie Van Maaren. No idea how old she is, no idea if she is married.

I met her once and that is the video. She was very nice to me as you can see as were all at the studio.

THE EARLY BIRD SHOW

10 Network / 1984-89

A Saturday morning kids show featuring a mix of cartoons, music and guests and so on and hosted by Daryl Cotton, Marie Van Maaren and Marty Monster (a man in a furry Monster costume).

[The Great Hairy One]

Hey Rich, you are talking about the Daily Telegraph here.

Let that sink in for a moment. The Daily Telegraph. Not exactly a pillar of truth, elightenment and research, eh? :)

Cruddy article, BTW. You should put something in the next mag about it.

Cheers,
TGHO

[Mobyseven]

See! We have morons in Australia, too.

M.

Like there was ever any doubt...

* Mobyseven sighs, and procrastinates for another five minutes regarding the choice of legal homework or bed.

[Lonewulf]

An entire continent populated by criminals that were so undesirable, they couldn't even be subjected into the British navy actually has morons?

Wow.

[Richard]

BTW, the item in the newspaper itself was entitled;

"Tragedy of scoffing sceptics".

A rebuttal will appear on the Australian Skeptics web site soon.

Richard 'unfeeling monster' Saunders

[Geckko]

This journalist seems to be consumed by the religious angle.

[treble_head]

Thank you all. I am most pi$$ed off that the reporter just got things wrong. However, I am so grateful that you, my true friends and the friends of reason have come to my aid.

OK.. to see what a monster I am, take a look at:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/499742/

You beast! using something fun like origami to push your "prehistoric" notions of evolution on the poor kids!

[JeffJ]

Richard 'unfeeling monster' Saunders

Not so fast with that one...
No mere mortal can fold paper like that. Especially not into those ultra tiny sized animals. Somethings wrong with you... the work of the devil most likely.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

This dude is an idiot but he has a point: I would hate to decide for someone else what's best for them but I believe it would be kinder to let people who already think they've been visited by a dead family member to let them think that.

How do you tell someone who (one example) is convinced the Oklahoma junkyard video ghost is his late wife and who's shown it to their young sons that it's a GI Joe doll?

Yeah, psychics and mediums don't bring "closure" or comfort to friends and family members like they claim to but once someone's latched onto that and taking comfort from that, you can't break their hearts once again by pulling that out from under their feet, too.

[Orangutan]

Thank you all. I am most pi$$ed off that the reporter just got things wrong. However, I am so grateful that you, my true friends and the friends of reason have come to my aid.

OK.. to see what a monster I am, take a look at:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/499742/

Quote from the start of that clip, "Gee you're clever aren't you?" Said with little enthusiasm. Well I loled anyway!.

Seriously good stuff, If you are getting under the skin of idiots like this at least you are getting noticed.

Ha! Marty, I saw him getting beaten up by a kangaroo once! lol.

2nd edit, your stuff is available at amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/104-4630375-4130349?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=aussiegami&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go

[skeptigirl]

Thank you all. I am most pi$$ed off that the reporter just got things wrong. However, I am so grateful that you, my true friends and the friends of reason have come to my aid.

OK.. to see what a monster I am, take a look at:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/499742/From the way you worded this, I was waiting for that strange creature in the back to attack or something. :)

[skeptigirl]

Here's what I posted,

Coming from a country where we are in a war because the press and the public and many of our leaders simply did not question what they were being told, I'd say your myopic view of skepticism is unfortunate.

The goal of the skeptical community is to promote critical thinking. It is to teach children how to determine if a shadow on a hillside or a stain on a wall is just that or something more.

What would be your reply if a religious leader accused people here of worshiping graven images? What do you say to the person who traded their real medicines for a quack cure for HIV? It's OK, it gives them hope? Does it matter if we have parents refusing to vaccinate their children because they believe in some giant conspiracy between government and pharmaceutical corporations to make a profit at the expense of their new baby? Or if we direct research dollars to look for a connection between autism and vaccines long after the research shows it is time to look for another cause, vaccines have been ruled out?

There is sadness with death. Belief in an afterlife is comforting. When people exploit that grief, offering to speak with the deceased for huge fees that skeptics care to get involved. It might mean the loss of a comforting fantasy. But the cost of not being skeptical, of not teaching critical thinking, can be thousands more deaths in a war only a few people thought was needed, from disease that could have been prevented by a simple vaccine, or from a treatable disease like HIV where people forgo real treatment for snake oil someone created after a dream.


I hope they post it.

[athon]

Thank you all. I am most pi$$ed off that the reporter just got things wrong. However, I am so grateful that you, my true friends and the friends of reason have come to my aid.

OK.. to see what a monster I am, take a look at:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/499742/

That's your book?? I have one of your dinosaurs (well, folded from that book) on my shelf. A girl I was dating folded it for my last birthday and stuck it on a card. I picked it from that book!!

Wow. How about that.

Athon

[my_wan]

Hey they published my comments to. :cool:

[Foster Zygote]

It is interesting to note that the sceptics here are happy to credit themselves with a gift they decry as fraudulent in others: the ability to see into the future.

WTF is he talking about? This whole article strikes me as an act of ego masturbation. What a hack.

[skeptigirl]

WTF is he talking about? This whole article strikes me as an act of ego masturbation. What a hack.According to him, After all, how else could someone predict what good or bad is likely to come of belief in something miraculous, even if it is not true?
So apparently he doesn't understand that if you predict an outcome based on evidence it is not the same as predicting an outcome based on the fantasy that you magically can.

[skeptigirl]

There are some darn good comments there folks. I commend you all. Mine are under Ginger Smith. I wasn't sure I wanted my real surname out there.

Nice to see Kiless either lurking here or keeping up on the news there. I met her at TAM5. Real nice person.

[CFLarsen]

This dude is an idiot but he has a point: I would hate to decide for someone else what's best for them but I believe it would be kinder to let people who already think they've been visited by a dead family member to let them think that.

How do you tell someone who (one example) is convinced the Oklahoma junkyard video ghost is his late wife and who's shown it to their young sons that it's a GI Joe doll?

Yeah, psychics and mediums don't bring "closure" or comfort to friends and family members like they claim to but once someone's latched onto that and taking comfort from that, you can't break their hearts once again by pulling that out from under their feet, too.

I strongly disagree. It is far more cruel to let them live in a fantasy, provided by phony psychics, than to tell them what is really happening.

Don't forget that psychics don't just cheat the bereaved, they also rape the memories people have of their dearly departed, by giving false "information" from the "spirits".

[skeptigirl]

And my point, Eeney, was that you may be trading that person's comfort in their fantasy for the missed opportunity to address critical thinking skills which could actually save another person from dying.

[Richard]

That's your book?? I have one of your dinosaurs (well, folded from that book) on my shelf. A girl I was dating folded it for my last birthday and stuck it on a card. I picked it from that book!!

Wow. How about that.

Athon

Ah, it's a small world.

[SimonD]

An entire continent populated by criminals that were so undesirable, they couldn't even be subjected into the British navy actually has morons?

Wow.

Hhhmmm....usually I'd take issue with this, but with John Horward as Prime Minister, I'd have to agree :(

[Richard]

Just want to add my latest comment on the matter:

"Big Ab of Jonestown", the one who thinks Skeptics are to be feared, should Google "Jonestown" and see what happened in the 1970s when people believed the hoaxes and tricks they were seeing were miracles.
Posted by: Richard Saunders of 9:47pm April 01, 2007

[The Atheist]

That's it, we're selling you lot off - I'm sure USA will buy you.

Where on earth do you find newspapers like that crud? Over here, an article like that could only appear in one of the born-again-####wit publications.

Thank god for good, Kiwi heathens.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Yeah, their memories are raped once they find out it was false.

Do you really and honestly think it necessary to go to the junkyard ghost hoax victims and prove to them that the ghost of their daughter, wife and mother is a plastic doll? The public should know, yes, but if it's not a life or death situation, the family should be spared.

That's why we believe in this stuff in the first place- human are built to seek comfort in the supernatural.

[CFLarsen]

Yeah, their memories are raped once they find out it was false.

Do you really and honestly think it necessary to go to the junkyard ghost hoax victims and prove to them that the ghost of their daughter, wife and mother is a plastic doll? The public should know, yes, but if it's not a life or death situation, the family should be spared.

The family is also part of the public. Since they are the party involved, they should be the first to know.

That's why we believe in this stuff in the first place- human are built to seek comfort in the supernatural.

No.

We are built to interpret the world around us. Sometimes, we draw the wrong conclusions and attach supernatural meaning to phenomena we don't know enough about to explain.

If anything, you can say that humans are built to observe the world, but aren't built to understand it.

[Richard]

OK.. there are now desperate people, some in wheelchairs, turning up to the house... more soon.

[RenaissanceBiker]

The few times I have been involved with the media I have been shocked at how oversimplified or flat out wrong they got the issue. These people have deadlines and space or time limitations so they must churn out a story. They always have to make it a story their audience will be interested in. So, sometimes it is just wrong. When you see them do it to something you actually know about, it makes you wonder how oversimplified or incorrect the other stories are.

[Richard]

The few times I have been involved with the media I have been shocked at how oversimplified or flat out wrong they got the issue. These people have deadlines and space or time limitations so they must churn out a story. They always have to make it a story their audience will be interested in. So, sometimes it is just wrong. When you see them do it to something you actually know about, it makes you wonder how oversimplified or incorrect the other stories are.

Then you are going to love this outstanding example of media investigation.

TupqO_FU4xk

[articulett]

Then you are going to love this outstanding example of media investigation.

TupqO_FU4xk


It was fantastic. Where can I get more clips like this? (I'm a teacher).
(By the way...I'm sensing that you are staring at me in your mind's eye at this very moment; am I right?) :)

[Lonewulf]

Then you are going to love this outstanding example of media investigation.

"We believe it's unnatural intervention"... or did he say natural? I was like, "Wowzors!"

So much for Occam's Razor...

[SimonD]

OK.. there are now desperate people, some in wheelchairs, turning up to the house... more soon.

What happened with this? Or is this an in-joke that I am missing? :boggled:

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Don't you think though that it would be extremely cruel to a family who wants to believe in it, who's chosen to believe it, who's believed in it for a long time and who isn't following up on it in other ways to take it away from them?

Usually, I'd say I'd want to know the truth because it's a cold comfort but there's a difference between telling them the hard truth and pulling the rug out from under someone.

My grandmother is a life-long Christian and it's gotten her through some tough times in her life, such as the death of her father and sister when she was very young, the death of her mother as a teenager, poverty, joblessness, the death of her husband and various health problems.

I'm not gonna try to tell her she's never gonna see my grandfather and great-grandparents again and God never did nothing for her and she's been going to church every week of her life for absolutely nothing.

There'd be no point in it and that person is much, much too invested in it to have it do any good.

[Richard]

TodayTonight bumped out ACA as ACA would not pay for the story and
TodayTonight would (as far as my info goes). TodayTonight do not want
this to be a clear hoax, not yet any way.

For some reason the scientific investigator said, "We believe it's the
result of some type of unnatural intervention." What does that mean??
I am thinking what he meant was "Someone put it there." but the words
could be interpreted as "Paranormal intervention." TodayTonight may
well have got him to say it or he said it and they thought, "Yes!
that's the answer we can use to string this along."

sigh....

[Richard]

Another video about the house.

http://www.gigasize.com/get.php/1095368/weeping_wall_march_07_TT_01.wmv

[Richard]

Opps, online now.

uLLhkPfPA9w

[skeptigirl]

What do you want to bet there is a collection plate in this story. The family denies it so there could be some other secondary gain. The dad in the interview had that little smirk which gives away a lie in the end when asked about the reason for letting people come to see the miracle.

These scams have been perpetrated over and over. You think the news media would have said something about that. What a fraud.