9-11 Truther Child Abuse?

[parky76]

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6659

Check out these pics of these cute little girls wearing 9-11 Inside Job T shirts.

Is this child abuse? I believe indoctrinating your children with anti-social and insane beliefs does indeed qualify.

I can just imagine what their bed time stories are like.

"Once upon a time, the evil Zionist controlled governmant flew some planes and destroyed some evil Zionist towers in Jew York City"

I'm sure they constantly tell these girls "don't ever trust anyone who works for the governmant, even teachers. They are all Freemasons and will brainwash you and make you a Zionist"

[Mince]

I made a post about this in another thread. I'll copy it here.


http://myspacewaiter.com/nph-proxy.c...showtopic=6659 (http://myspacewaiter.com/nph-proxy.cgi/111110A/http/z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6659)


Neanderthals! This really disgusts me.

I had a very disturbing revelation the other day. I heard Alex Jones mention that he had children. This chilled me. His children will never have a rational option when it comes to government and 9/11. Jones will coerce them into believing the deceit he peddles. They will never be able to thoughtfully disagree with him. They will never be able to use their intellect to counter him.

I can only pray for his children and be thankful they are not me.
(http://myspacewaiter.com/nph-proxy.cgi/111110A/http/z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6659)


I don't know about child abuse, but I don't believe that is the proper way to raise a child.



ETA: Yes, honey, it is OK to accuse people of mass murder with frivolous claims and without proper evidence.

Those bastards. Pardon my language, but this is worth a moderator warning.

[Bobert]

Those poor children.

[Foolmewunz]

We've had parents parading their children for their causes for centuries. I'll never forget the sweet little four-year-olds in KKK garb on Geraldo.

But - ya know, when it was friends of mine, buying peace symbol t-shirts for their infants, I kinda thought it was cute.

I guess beauty (and the appropriateness of a message) is in the eye of the beholder.

[hellaeon]

Sometimes parents forget children != dolls

[Alareth]

We've had parents parading their children for their causes for centuries. I'll never forget the sweet little four-year-olds in KKK garb on Geraldo.


The modern equivilent would be Prussian Blue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Blue_(American_duo))

[parky76]

I dont care if its the KKK, Neo-Nazis, Militias, or 9-11 Truthers. When you parade your children around in political clothing, you are misusing them.

Children are not pets to be manipulated and played with. They are human beings who deserve the right and the knowledge to make up their OWN MINDS.

[LashL]

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6659

Check out these pics of these cute little girls wearing 9-11 Inside Job T shirts.

Is this child abuse? I believe indoctrinating your children with anti-social and insane beliefs does indeed qualify.

I can just imagine what their bed time stories are like.

"Once upon a time, the evil Zionist controlled governmant flew some planes and destroyed some evil Zionist towers in Jew York City"

I'm sure they constantly tell these girls "don't ever trust anyone who works for the governmant, even teachers. They are all Freemasons and will brainwash you and make you a Zionist"

No, it is not child abuse, and frankly, I find the suggestion that it is child abuse to be rather over the top. These are two cute little kids dressed in a parent's tee-shirt for the parent's amusement, sure, but the little girls are too young to read the text, let alone comprehend the "message" of the troofer parent.

And even if they were older, and the parent was trying to indoctrinate them into troofer woo, I do not think that would qualify as "child abuse" either. Parents indoctrinate their children in all kinds of ways every day, and even though I disagree with their message, it isn't "child abuse" unless there is an actual risk of harm to the child. Indoctrinating one's children in twoofer woo is no different than parents indoctrinating their children with the parents' religious beliefs. Distasteful to me, personally, but not "child abuse".

[Pardalis]

Kids and toddler t-shirts (http://www.cafepress.com/investigate911). Using kids to promote their sick ideas.

[LashL]

Kids and toddler t-shirts (http://www.cafepress.com/investigate911). Using kids to promote their sick ideas.


Sure, but it's not "child abuse" to dress one's kid in a stupid tee shirt.

[jon]

I made a post about this in another thread. I'll copy it here.





I don't know about child abuse, but I don't believe that is the proper way to raise a child.


In terms of Jones raising kids, I'd say his attitude towards vaccinations and FEMA deathcamps (sorry, I meant to say conventional medicine...) might be something of a risk :eek:

[Brainster]

No, it is not child abuse, and frankly, I find the suggestion that it is child abuse to be rather over the top. These are two cute little kids dressed in a parent's tee-shirt for the parent's amusement, sure, but the little girls are too young to read the text, let alone comprehend the "message" of the troofer parent.

And even if they were older, and the parent was trying to indoctrinate them into troofer woo, I do not think that would qualify as "child abuse" either. Parents indoctrinate their children in all kinds of ways every day, and even though I disagree with their message, it isn't "child abuse" unless there is an actual risk of harm to the child. Indoctrinating one's children in twoofer woo is no different than parents indoctrinating their children with the parents' religious beliefs. Distasteful to me, personally, but not "child abuse".

Amen. Parents have every right to indoctrinate their children into whatever they want, as long as it's not illegal.

[Pardalis]

But to use them as promotional signs?

[LashL]

But to use them as promotional signs?

Happens every day in every city in North America, I'd wager. While some of us find it to be in poor taste, it is not "child abuse".

[ConspiRaider]

ISABELLA KNOWS!

Call the dogs off, folks. Have a look-see at Isabella's smile. Is that genuine? No it is not. It's a coerced smile. If Isabella really believed in the Inside Job, she'd be doing a smile that would make Jessica Alba insane with jealousy. That smile of Isabella's clearly says: "Ted E. Bear and I had a sitdown last night and we side with the Official Story. Teddy never lies. But if I wear this shirt and smile, they'll throw the deadbolt on the white door behind me and let me out of my bedroom. A remote-control camera snapped this shot, and I'm to pass the Polaroid under the door for approval. Then I can get Barbie to try on her new NIST inspector top and matching skirt, carrying her chic microscope / purse combo."

[Pardalis]

Happens every day in every city in North America, I'd wager. While some of us find it to be in poor taste, it is not "child abuse".

Why do you have to be so right all the time? :p

[FactCheck]

I wouldn't worry about their children much. Children seem to think more clearly than their parents. Then they take drugs and become thick headed adults. :P

[LashL]

Why do you have to be so right all the time? :p

Force of habit :D

[Gravy]

And where can we see some peer reviewed finger paintings from these "kids for truth?"

[DarkMagician]

It's not illegal, just really, really sad.

[The Silver Shadow]

this thread shows how we use logic and legal know how to come to a conclusion, even if it may not be in our favour. The 9/11 truthers would never do such a thing...

[~enigma~]

this thread shows how we use logic and legal know how to come to a conclusion, even if it may not be in our favour. The 9/11 truthers would never do such a thing...
Well over at LCF in a thread about Jeff Hill (The Crazy Canuk)..


Shure could be a useful asset to the Truth Movement... if he channeled all of that passion and rage into something legal and less creepish.

looks like there may be some logic poking through the haze :)

[The Doc]

Why do truthers salivate over the merchandise that their leaders are getting rich off...

Can't they see it? It's all about money and they're helping people sell out.

[Foolmewunz]

Thanks, LashL.... I've gotta forget about subtlety on the CT threads, I guess. You're stating what I was implying.

Mommy and Daddy take little Johnny to Mickey D's or Burger King and he gets a promotional T-Shirt. Think the PETA folks might want to have mom and dad prosecuted for child abuse? After all, that poor kid doesn't know how much suffering those burgers went through on the burger factory farms, and his parents have no right to indoctrinate him into a meat-eating, animal-hating mindset at such an early age.

Like I said, it's in the eye of the beholder. I was with the peace movement, and cute little tykes with tie-dyed peace symbol t-shirts just warmed our hearts!

And, BTW.... Surely the people at JREF aren't going to be saying that parents cannot educate (indoctrinate) their offspring? Isn't one of our greatest complaints the fact that too many parents abrogate their responsibility for political, moral, religious, and sexual education, but leave it to the school systems?

Who else is going to decide what sort of moral fiber my kid(s) are going to have? The Topeka school board? Jerry Fallwell? Dikes on Bikes? The Boy Scouts?

My kid was raised (and any future offspring will be raised) giving her as many choices and options as we could place before her. If a populist majority or vocal minority had tried to interfere with our decisions, I would have had them in court in a heartbeat.

[Mobyseven]

These are the children your children will live to debunk.

Think about it. :p

[Foolmewunz]

These are the children your children will live to debunk.

Think about it. :p

Well, since my daughter's 28 and totally apolitical, she might want to take them on now, when she can still win!

[Mobyseven]

Well, since my daughter's 28 and totally apolitical, she might want to take them on now, when she can still win!

Sheesh.

These are the children your children, grandchildren, or, if your son or daughter is not that way inclined, grandniece, grandnephew, or small child of a close friend will like to debunk.

Happy now?

[Mince]

Thanks, LashL.... I've gotta forget about subtlety on the CT threads, I guess. You're stating what I was implying.

Mommy and Daddy take little Johnny to Mickey D's or Burger King and he gets a promotional T-Shirt. Think the PETA folks might want to have mom and dad prosecuted for child abuse? After all, that poor kid doesn't know how much suffering those burgers went through on the burger factory farms, and his parents have no right to indoctrinate him into a meat-eating, animal-hating mindset at such an early age.



I also agree, which I intimated in the first response to this thread. However, let's use a little perspective. Cattle made into burgers, or religious dogma vs. frivolous accusations of mass murder, et. al.,...using your young children. Even if he did have actual evidence that those whom he is proffering executed the 9/11 attacks, it's pretty boorish and self-serving to use your young daughters as advocates for same.


But, ultimately, it certainly is not child abuse, just really poor decision making, especially as a parent.


YMMV

[Sword_Of_Truth]

There's something of a case here that can be made criminal intent if not actual criminal activity.

If you believed in your heart that a sinister cabal had casually offed 3,000 of your fellow citizens just to further thier agenda, would you really stick a "Hey NWO, I know too much!" sign on your childs chest?

[LashL]

There's something of a case here that can be made criminal intent if not actual criminal activity.

If you believed in your heart that a sinister cabal had casually offed 3,000 of your fellow citizens just to further thier agenda, would you really stick a "Hey NWO, I know too much!" sign on your childs chest?

No, there isn't any case to be made for "criminal intent". At worst, it would only go to show that some troofers don't actually believe the nonsense they spew, and that they are happy to play silly buggers on the internet notwithstanding. Most likely, the guy who posted photos of his children on the internet in troofer garb does believe the nonsense he spouts. That's unfortunate, certainly, but it's his prerogative to be an idiot even if he's a parent.

Even if they do actually believe their own nonsense, it would still not be "child abuse" to dress up their children in stupid tee shirts, and doing so does not amount to "criminal intent" of anything. Stupidity - yes; criminality - no.

[Foolmewunz]

There's something of a case here that can be made criminal intent if not actual criminal activity.

If you believed in your heart that a sinister cabal had casually offed 3,000 of your fellow citizens just to further thier agenda, would you really stick a "Hey NWO, I know too much!" sign on your childs chest?

Well, that'd be criminal stupidity, of which they're all guilty. That point's been raised thousands of times, and they have no response: If the government would "off" 3000 people just so Cheney could make some money, what's to stop them from blowing up three guys in a van in Oneonta????

[Mince]

There's something of a case here that can be made criminal intent if not actual criminal activity.

If you believed in your heart that a sinister cabal had casually offed 3,000 of your fellow citizens just to further thier agenda, would you really stick a "Hey NWO, I know too much!" sign on your childs chest?


I don't think Mike, or TruthOrLiesDotOrg, possesses the intellectual capacity to caution against such things. He has to admit either that he is an idiot who is making his daughters a target (remember, these guys have no remorse and will kill anybody for any reason), or that he really doesn't believe the junk he peddles and is just playing a game.

[Mince]

No, there isn't any case to be made for "criminal intent".

I took his post as a bit of humorous hyperbole. Problem with the internet though, you can't really know the demeanor of words without voice accompaniment.

[westprog]

We've had parents parading their children for their causes for centuries. I'll never forget the sweet little four-year-olds in KKK garb on Geraldo.

But - ya know, when it was friends of mine, buying peace symbol t-shirts for their infants, I kinda thought it was cute.

I guess beauty (and the appropriateness of a message) is in the eye of the beholder.

I think that if you object to children being used as political fodder, then you can't pick and choose what causes you like. Bringing children on political protests is always a dubious tactic. Sometimes - as in for example, demands for racial equality - the existence of children speaks for itself.

[Foolmewunz]

I think that if you object to children being used as political fodder, then you can't pick and choose what causes you like. Bringing children on political protests is always a dubious tactic. Sometimes - as in for example, demands for racial equality - the existence of children speaks for itself.

I wasn't speaking of taking them to protect the flank of The Weathermen in the March on the Pentagon. I just mentioned the t-shirts/outfits. The pics of the 911 kids are obviously in their apartment/flat, and the kids I'm talking about of my generation would just be with their parents or at the playground, hanging out with other kids. (The peace symbol wasn't considered all that radical in the 60's once you got between the two big mountain ranges.... On the west coast, and in the cites of the Northeast, it wasn't a rabble-rousing emblem.)

(Now the miscreants who put their kids in hoods and sheets and stand them up for the TV cameras? That's quite a different thing.)

Be that as it may - I don't think this amounts to child abuse (even in the KKK example, as strongly as I feel on the topic), and I don't think any of us would really presume that we need to police the upbringing of someone else's children. At least not over something like whether they wear a t-shirt saying "911 Truth" or "So Many Christians/So Few Lions", or my personal favorite, "Save the Nauga" (just to mix some messages.....)

[eddyk]

The 9/11 Truth movement will die when Bush leaves office.

He will stop caring, and his kids will have a normal life...maybe.

The 9/11 Truth t-shirts will go under his bed not to be discovered for another 10 years, and when he does find it he will peer down and it and say to himself 'I was such an idiot to believe the conspiracy crap'.

Dylan and his boyfriends after the massive flop that will be LCFC will change their names and move to Mexico.

[Travis]

I dont care if its the KKK, Neo-Nazis, Militias, or 9-11 Truthers. When you parade your children around in political clothing, you are misusing them.

Children are not pets to be manipulated and played with. They are human beings who deserve the right and the knowledge to make up their OWN MINDS.

The KKK used to actively recruit at my high school while I was still there. As the most vocal Gay rights proponent on campus I would normally have been in danger but fortunately I was friends (since childhood) with the guys who were the biggest bullies on campus (bullies to the other nerds, I was the nerd they protected).

But to topic here, I don't think you can construe this as abuse anymore than a church going family forcing their kids into chapel on Sundays, or even atheists educating their kids on the fallacies of religion, or ultra-leftists educating their kids on the wrongs of capitalism.

[Ove]

This doesn't make me boil. What DID p*ss me of very much was something i experienced a couple of years ago. I saw a couple with two little girls (8-10ish) approach my house, then the parents stopped at my garden gate and the two small girls went up to my door with their brouchure. Yes you've guessed it: Jehova's Witnesses. I got extremely mad.. I got my wife to talk to the girls and then i went down and told the parents what i thought off them, i wouldn't do that in front of the girls. :mad:
THERE you could talk about child abuse but i think they got my message.....

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Having entered in to this thread after it is well underway makes for an interesting take. The whole discussion here is not unlike Dawkins' accusal of religious indoctrination of children being tantamount to child abuse in The God Delusion.

[Travis]

I think subjectivity needs to be considered here. Why would somebody teach their children what they don't believe themselves? My parents were Mormon, I was raised Mormon, went to a LDS church on Sundays and didn't drink caffeine. But when I got older I went another way and am now an atheist. My parents are still Mormons but they respect my decision and never try to undermine it. Now wouldn't it have been odd for them to raise me as, say, a Lutheran when they were not one themselves?

Now certainly I think one needs to always toe a certain line. It is one thing to raise a child on the same ideologies as you, yourself, posses. It is another thing to bully it into them, never letting them explore things intellectually.

Provided I find a Ms that is also an atheist we would probably raise our children as atheists. But should they desire another path one day, well, that would be their decision. Life has to be lived.

Back to the OP. I don't think simply having the T-shirts on the kids really harms them. Likely they don't even understand what's on them. It would be another thing if they sat the kid in a chair and lectured them 2 hours a day on the evils of the NWO(no not pro-wrestling which is demonstrably evil;)) or how the Reptilians control everything from underneath Denver International Airport. Brainwashing them into believing a very false reality is bad, dressing them up. . . well people dress up their pets too and think it's cute. People do lots of weird things.

[Anti-sophist]

This is not any different then that insane Jesus-camp thing, or white-pride nonsense. It's not really child abuse and I'm pretty sure I'd be against any attempt to regulate it as such. What are the alternatives? A list of things you can't teach your kids? Gather all of the children up and force the same beliefs on them all? That stuff is far more scary then letting the crazy people teach their kids crazy things.

I'm a big believer that CTs are just religious zealotry for atheists. NWO is their evil god whom they used to explain all the ills they perceive. If these people had been born to hardcore god fearing fundamentalists, they'd be sending their kids to Jesus camp to learn to hate homosexuals.

It's all the same thing. All you can do is hope that the smart ones break themselves free from the perpetuating cycle of ignorance.

[Travis]

I agree. Who would determine what could and could not be taught? I think the mistake a lot of people make is assuming they would be in the drivers seat in determining the agenda. And even if they were, is that still right?

I might be an atheist but I don't want to live in a world in which everyone is forced to be one as well. What real value is there in getting people to believe something by depriving them of choice?

[Donal]

Its not abuse. I really don't tink it even qualifies as poor parenting.

I see yuppies who have kids and raise them to be fashion accessories to show off to their yuppie friends. Thats poor parenting.

That one freak who had his wife leave him and take the kids because he was neglecting them, thats bad parenting. And the fact that he was basically rejoicing when she died in a car accident really gives me chills. He's not a bad parent because of his beliefs, but what he is willing to do because of them.

Can we generally leave the kids out of the discussions? As long as they aren't harming their kids, its none of our bussiness.

[Josh Redstone]

It might not be abuse, but it's irresponsible. Of course these kids don't understand what's going on when their parents make them wear an 'investigate 9/11' shirt or even a 'god hates fags' (these make my stomach turn) shirt, but these parents aren't teaching their kids about these ideas, they're teaching them that they are a member of a group to which these ideas belong. In other words, they aren't educating them, then leaving them a choice about what they want to believe when they are old enough to make it - they are simply telling their children what they are, and the children don't know any better. That's not to say that these kids can't change their minds about things when they reach a certain age, but it does make that whole process more difficult for them, just ask any kid who was raised a religious fundamentalist who has become an atheist.

[Mobyseven]

People - think of what the alternative would be here:

To turn into a criminal offence certain teachings takes us down a dangerous path - remember that public opinion changes often, and that the laws can be changed through public action.

Were a law like this to be introduced, think about what OTHER teachings may be considered 'indoctrination'. It would be a clear case of the government interfering in family relations far beyond what they should be able to.

Having said that, I believe Dawkins makes a good point in The God Delusion when he says he objects to the terms, "Catholic Child", "Jewish Child", "[insert faith here] Child", and instead says that if we MUST make a reference like that, we say, "A child whose parents are [insert faith here]."

[A W Smith]

My parents were Mormon, I was raised Mormon, went to a LDS church on Sundays and didn't drink caffeine. Ok whats wrong with this picture?http://www.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&q=starbucks&near=Salt+Lake+City,+UT&sa=X&oi=local&ct=title

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Ok whats wrong with this picture?http://www.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&q=starbucks&near=Salt+Lake+City,+UT&sa=X&oi=local&ct=title

Nothing, really. Utah in general is 70% mormon. Salt Lake City itself is 50% mormon.

There's plenty of money to be made in Utah and SLC selling coffee and alcohol to those who aren't prohibited from drinking it.