Loungechair Patriots?

[Thunder]

This isn't just about Iraq or Iran. This is about any conflict that someone may or may not support. Is it not fair to say that if you want America to "liberate" Iraq or attack Iran or Syria..shouldn't you be willing to stand by your convictions and be willing to enlist? And if you are not willing to put your career and life in the States on hold, why the hell should anyone else fight for what YOU believe in?

After 9-11, I was 25 years old. I thought to myself in the preceding months "if there was a draft would I go?" The answer was...mostly yes..but I wasn't willing to enlist. But at the same time, I wasn't beating the drums of war, calling my Congressman demanding that we take out the Taliban and get payback. But if I was, I would like to think that I would have been willing to put my money where my mouth is. Shouldn't you?

[Pardalis]

And what about the armchair cynics who criticize from their computer everything their government is doing and think they know better than the people who are actually on the scene fighting every day?

[Thunder]

I can't stand people who hate everything their governmant is doing. Any rational person can see that some things that our governmant does sucks....and some things are all well and good. Take the National Parks Service. They protect millions of acres of natural areas and teach us about our nation's heritage. Now that's one part of the Federal governmant that I definately applaud. As to foreign policy, we do have some major problems, but that can all be fixed. There is no need to completaly hate your governmant.

If you do, well, there are lots of countries to choose from.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "willing" to enlist. As a member of the military, I certainly don't think that anyone advocating the use of the military ought to join themselves. One of the basic principles of our country is civilian control of the military -- and that entails having civilians, or at least their elected representatives, make decisions about where and when the military will be used. I don't think that requires a willingness to enlist any more than calling the fire department requires a personal willingness to run into a burning building alongside the firefighters.

Obviously, I would hope that anyone pushing for war would think about the long term consequences, both to the other country involved, and to the men and women who are fighting the war, and try to make the best decision about whether or not the war is worth it. But still, I do not think that requires a willingness to actually go fight the war themselves.

[RandFan]

This isn't just about Iraq or Iran. This is about any conflict that someone may or may not support. Is it not fair to say that if you want America to "liberate" Iraq or attack Iran or Syria..shouldn't you be willing to stand by your convictions and be willing to enlist?
If you believe in justice should you not be a judge?
If you believe in medicine should you not be a doctor?
If you believe in safety shouldn't you be a fireman or paramedic?
And if you believe in law and order should you not be a policeman?

I think there is a fallacy somewhere in your argument parky, work it out for us, ok?

[hubbub2]

First, I'm to old to enlist. Second, with all the new weapon technology (that my hard earned tax dollars pay for, by the way), all those people you want to enlist would get in the way. And third, along the same lines of what RandFan said...if you believe in the supernatural, should you be a ghost?

[Mephisto]

This isn't just about Iraq or Iran. This is about any conflict that someone may or may not support. Is it not fair to say that if you want America to "liberate" Iraq or attack Iran or Syria..shouldn't you be willing to stand by your convictions and be willing to enlist? And if you are not willing to put your career and life in the States on hold, why the hell should anyone else fight for what YOU believe in?

After 9-11, I was 25 years old. I thought to myself in the preceding months "if there was a draft would I go?" The answer was...mostly yes..but I wasn't willing to enlist. But at the same time, I wasn't beating the drums of war, calling my Congressman demanding that we take out the Taliban and get payback. But if I was, I would like to think that I would have been willing to put my money where my mouth is. Shouldn't you?

There are some interesting takes on this premise in this thread (from about post #25 on):

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=77776

As a disabled veteran, I'll be the first to agree with anyone that doesn't want to join the military. I served in Vietnam, but I wasn't drafted. Most veterans here will readily admit that the military isn't for everyone, nor is it the only way a person can serve his country.

Having said that, I do wish that more politicians had close family in the military (Matthew Dowd does now and he's changed his opinion of the war AND of the President). It's one thing to demand patriotism and nationalism and military service from people to support a war you've started, it's a completely different thing to hold those same ideals when your son or daughter is on the front lines.

I honestly don't believe that Bush's convictions would be quite as strong if Jenna or Barbara were in Baghdad right now.

[athon]

And what about the armchair cynics who criticize from their computer everything their government is doing and think they know better than the people who are actually on the scene fighting every day?

Small point: this doesn't follow. Parky is asking if 'advocating that our nation should be actively putting lives on the line to change another nation's values / culture / government, does that mean we should personally be pursuing that option'.

If we say we shouldn't be actively going over to do such things, then the equivalent is to not go over personally.

Bad comparison.

Athon

[Daylight]

Is it not fair to say that if you want America to "liberate" Iraq or attack Iran or Syriak, and you know the politicians you support lied to start the war and know they continue to lie about the war..shouldn't you be willing to stand by your convictions and be willing to enlist? And if you are not willing to put your career and life in the States on hold, why the hell should anyone else fight for what YOU believe in?

Slight Derail

If you add what I bolded, does this change anything? There is much more that could be added to the bolded if instead the question was about this war.

[Beerina]

advocating that our nation should be actively putting lives on the line to change another nation's values / culture / government

I find it interesting that the only people who hold as a value other people living in a dicatorship are those safely outside that dictatorship, like people in a free country, or the dictator.

May you never find yourself with a thug's gun pointed at you, and someone safely out there beating their breast wondering if they have the "right" to intervene.

[Hutch]

No, I do not have anger at those (mostly too old) who do not enlist while backing the war.

I object too those that would have us wage war while at the same time not call for the sacrifice in terms of taxes and cuts in services that are needed to eventually pay for it. To pass on another Trillion dollars in debt (and that is what iraq will eventually cost us, mark my words) with no stragety to pay it down (indeed, cutting taxes is still a major concern for this administration). It is passing the onerous burden to our futures.

It ain't fair. It ain't right.

And they are going to get away with it.

And that does bug me.

[drkitten]

I find it interesting that the only people who hold as a value other people living in a dicatorship are those safely outside that dictatorship, like people in a free country, or the dictator.

You shouldn't. It's a truism. By definition, the only people who hold as a value other people doing anything are outsiders.

What I find interesting, though, are the number of people who are willing to fight and die in order to see a dictatorship imposed upon themselves and their loved ones. People like the Iraqi insurgents, for example.

I'm not sure why you think you -- an outsider -- think you get more of a say in how Iraq runs its own affairs than the Iraqis themselves. Because it's not "those safely outside that dictatorship" that are fighting and dying to drive the United States occupation force out of Iraq.

[billydkid]

This isn't just about Iraq or Iran. This is about any conflict that someone may or may not support. Is it not fair to say that if you want America to "liberate" Iraq or attack Iran or Syria..shouldn't you be willing to stand by your convictions and be willing to enlist? And if you are not willing to put your career and life in the States on hold, why the hell should anyone else fight for what YOU believe in?

After 9-11, I was 25 years old. I thought to myself in the preceding months "if there was a draft would I go?" The answer was...mostly yes..but I wasn't willing to enlist. But at the same time, I wasn't beating the drums of war, calling my Congressman demanding that we take out the Taliban and get payback. But if I was, I would like to think that I would have been willing to put my money where my mouth is. Shouldn't you?You are right. Let the people who start the wars and want to fight the wars and advocate the wars fight them - or at least send their children to fight them. If a war is worth your life and mine, it is also certainly worth their lives and the lives of their children.

[billydkid]

I can't stand people who hate everything their governmant is doing. Any rational person can see that some things that our governmant does sucks....and some things are all well and good. Take the National Parks Service. They protect millions of acres of natural areas and teach us about our nation's heritage. Now that's one part of the Federal governmant that I definately applaud. As to foreign policy, we do have some major problems, but that can all be fixed. There is no need to completaly hate your governmant.

If you do, well, there are lots of countries to choose from.I must have missed that post. Did someone post in here that they hate everything their government is doing? I can't stand people who insist that patriotism consists of supporting your government even when it is clearly dead wrong and perpetrating injustice. The most patriot thing you can do as an American is to oppose your government when it is violating American principles.

[shecky]

Hutch hits on what I think is the real meat of what is essentially the "chickenhawk argument".

[Thomas1016]

If you believe in justice should you not be a judge?
If you believe in medicine should you not be a doctor?
If you believe in safety shouldn't you be a fireman or paramedic?
And if you believe in law and order should you not be a policeman?

I think there is a fallacy somewhere in your argument parky, work it out for us, ok?

lol, is that why as a Mormon you are also a Athiest?

[RandFan]

No, I do not have anger at those (mostly too old) who do not enlist while backing the war.

I object too those that would have us wage war while at the same time not call for the sacrifice in terms of taxes and cuts in services that are needed to eventually pay for it. To pass on another Trillion dollars in debt (and that is what iraq will eventually cost us, mark my words) with no stragety to pay it down (indeed, cutting taxes is still a major concern for this administration). It is passing the onerous burden to our futures.

It ain't fair. It ain't right.

And they are going to get away with it.

And that does bug me. No argument.

[RandFan]

lol, is that why as a Mormon you are also a Athiest?Something like that.;)

I believe in porn but they won't take me as an adult film star. Hey, it's not for lack of trying.

[Dr Adequate]

And what about the armchair cynics who criticize from their computer everything their government is doing and think they know better than the people who are actually on the scene fighting every day morons running the country? A slight correction.

I hate to spoil your rhetoric, but it's not the troops who decide when, where, and whether to fight.

It's this guy.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5670/bushiz5.jpg

[Mephisto]

A slight correction.

I hate to spoil your rhetoric, but it's not the troops who decide when, where, and whether to fight.

It's this guy.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5670/bushiz5.jpg

:) You know . . . the deciders. ;)