Fan Death in Korea

[DonJunbar]

Hi everyone,

I'm the guy who sent Randi the e-mail about the Korean pseudo-science superstition that an electric fan can kill you if you sleep with the window closed. First, it is a very widespread belief echoed by doctors, homicide detectives, the media, and even fan manufacturers themselves, the one group who has a vested interest in disproving this belief.

The diatribe by my fellow expat in this week's newsletter gave me a jolt. A lot of times foreigners pounce on this Korean belief to the point where it comes off as bigotry. There are youtube movies made about it, websites dedicated to discussing it, and many, many angry flame wars on expat boards. When Kevin O'Brien writes, "Koreans on the whole are unfortunately, quite far from being 'rational and sensible' folks," my first reaction is :jaw-dropp .

The JREF has the noble mission of busting frauds, not insulting a nation by laughing at one of their superstitions. I hope you guys are willing to take the high road on this one and not judge all Koreans too harshly like so many expats here do. In the newest letter, I was impressed by Randi's response, and I'm glad he met some good sceptical Koreans. They do exist more than one might think.

Anyway, it was an honour to have my letter read by Randi, and I look forward to chatting with you guys on other topics in the future.

[Apathia]

Welcome DonJumber!

When I lived in Seoul over 20 years ago, I encounterd the fan folklore. It was pretty widespread at the time, and even the academic dean of the university (Sam-Yook) I though for warmed me not to run a fan in a closed room, and gave me a paper written by some academic that said that elctric motors suck the qi out of the air, creating a dangerous situation for the elderly and others with severly reduced "Root Qi."

I encountered it again a few years later in Japan, when my landlady warned me not to run the air-con with out a window cracked open to let in freash air.

The topic came up again seven years ago in a Shiatsu class I was taking in a Massage School in Northern California (Heartwood Institute). The Instructor, a Caucasian American, Paul Pitchford, insisted it was all true and that people have used up their "Gen-ki" must not risk cutting themselves off from other qi sorces, such as clean air.

The Brouhaha reminds me of the one that was raging before the Seoul Olympics about Koreans eating dog. Yes, there was a breed of "Yellow Dog," that some quarters of Korean society had eaten in times gone by. But the majority hadn't savored this so-called Korean delicacy, and students, especially, would get angry if someome brought the topic up, just because of the sterotyping.

I suppose this superstition will hang on for many years to come, just as various supersttion still have truck in our so-called "First World" culture.
Heck, we are inventing new ones, that we're exporting to the world, such as "The Law of Attraction."

[DonJunbar]

When I lived in Seoul over 20 years ago, I encounterd the fan folklore. It was pretty widespread at the time, and even the academic dean of the university (Sam-Yook) I though for warmed me not to run a fan in a closed room, and gave me a paper written by some academic that said that elctric motors suck the qi out of the air, creating a dangerous situation for the elderly and others with severly reduced "Root Qi."


This is interesting. So maybe fan death came from spiritualist ideas about qi or whatever, and then in order to defend the belief people started looking for scientific sounding ideas to claim it was real. I've never heard any Korean claim that fans are dangerous to your qi. Their explanations have molecules and natural vacuums and vortexes and chemical reactions and physiology. It would be interesting to trace the history of why people thought fans are deadly.


The Brouhaha reminds me of the one that was raging before the Seoul Olympics about Koreans eating dog. Yes, there was a breed of "Yellow Dog," that some quarters of Korean society had eaten in times gone by. But the majority hadn't savored this so-called Korean delicacy, and students, especially, would get angry if someome brought the topic up, just because of the sterotyping.


That's exactly how it works. The vast majority of Koreans these days would never eat dog, but they still get irritable when foreigners insult them about it. I think fan death would be the same.

Anyway, in my letter to Randi I forgot to mention how I convinced my wife, herself an adamant sceptic, that fan death isn't real. Last summer we slept with the fan on and the windows closed every night, and we didn't die. For the longest time she insisted "Fan death is real, and it's very scientific!" Now she's kicking herself she ever believed in fan death.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

Interesting. I've come across the "fan death" superstition quite a bit, but the "qi" explanation is definitely a new one on me. Most Koreans I know try to attach a vague scientific reason to it, and I've heard everything from hypothermia to fans sucking the air out of the room.

I am a little surprised that Hyparxis encountered this in Japan. My wife is Japanese and I have spent quite a bit of time there as well, and never heard of it before coming to Korea. She does believe quite strongly in the "blood type/personality" thing, in spite of my best efforts to dissuade her from it (a belief also common in Korea).

Anyway, I hate to sound like a fence sitter, but my own experience is pretty much in the middle of Randi's and this week's letter. I have met plenty of superstitious Koreans, from those who believe in fortune tellers, fan death, the connection between blood type and personality, etc. But, most Koreans I know are also pretty down to earth, and I wouldn't say they are any more superstitious than an average American. All countries have some form of common superstition, and neither Korea nor the U.S. is exempt from that.

[gtc]

I interpreted this story as simply an example of the odd beliefs that exist around the world. I didn't see it as reflecting badly on Korea.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

I interpreted this story as simply an example of the odd beliefs that exist around the world. I didn't see it as reflecting badly on Korea.

The story and Randi's commentary weren't reflecting badly on Korea. I was more referring to the one letter that cast Korea with a rather broad brush.

[Apathia]

One theory for the origin of the Fab Death is an actual killer: the traditional "ondol floor." The older version of this heating method was to trap hot air from burning coal in a cavity under the floorboards. However, if there were cracks in the floor, carbon monoxide would escape into the room. Yes, this is a documented, sceintific cause of death. So people were repeatedly warned to leave windows cracked open, and this got extended to the electric fan.

It's a maybe.

The funny thing is that traditional Westen superstition held that windows should be tightly closed least the "miasmal night vapors" enter and cause disease.

I too slept with the windows closed while running my air-con in spite of what the landlady had said.

I was living in Fukuoka, just a stones throw across the strait from the Korean Pennisula. So the idea could well have migrated to my landlady.

Yeah, what I was told by the Academic Dean at Samyook University and later by Paul Pitchford was that the electric motors sucked the ki or qi (Aka Life force) out of the air.

We get all worked up about foreign superstitions, and treat our own as natural. It's like all the horrible things some people point to in the Koran or the Hindu Scriprtures while the Bible's God-awful wonders are glossed over.
One man's superstition, is another's proverb.

[DonJunbar]

She does believe quite strongly in the "blood type/personality" thing, in spite of my best efforts to dissuade her from it (a belief also common in Korea).


Yes, it arrived via Japan actually. I've done a bunch of research into blood typing. It annoys me more than other superstitions, including fan death. It originally started as pro-Aryan propaganda in Nazi Germany to show that Aryans are superior to Jews and Asians because the blood type B is less common in Aryans.

[Apathia]

In the small time superstition department, in Japan it's considered bad luck for a romantic couple to see a shooting star. The opposite in America.

The Japanese and Koreans have the same aversion to the number four that came via the Chinese for the numeral four that roughly sounds like the same Chinese word for death. I found buildings in Japan that didn't have a numerical fourth floor, just as some old time buildings in America didn't have a 13th.

Many Japanese wall calenders have days marked according to a system of astrology called "Nine Star." The inauspicious days are called "Butsumetsu," meaning literaly "Buddha's demise."

It's enlightning to learn the various and contradictory superstitions of different cultures.

[DonJunbar]

And it's hilarious to see westerners say "Look at those superstitious people in other cultures! Why can't they be more like my culture, which is totally realistic and doesn't have any weird supersti--hey look, I think I see an image of the Virgin Mary in that puddle!"

I've seen some buildings in Korea, mostly big international hotels where I can't afford to stay, in which the elevators are missing both the fourth floor and the 13th floor. It's a nice way of putting it--"Your superstitions can coexist with my superstitions in harmony."

[UnrepentantSinner]

And it's hilarious to see westerners say "Look at those superstitious people in other cultures! Why can't they be more like my culture, which is totally realistic and doesn't have any weird supersti--hey look, I think I see an image of the Virgin Mary in that puddle!"

Pshaw! We don't even need to go as far as religious beliefs, look at old wives tales. My mom used to yell at me not to go outside with wet hair or I'd get a cold. I wore my hair very short while living at home and going to college, but once I graduated I started growing it out and rarely if ever is it dry when I leave for work.

I get about 1 cold a year... usually in the summer.

[DonJunbar]

Pshaw! We don't even need to go as far as religious beliefs, look at old wives tales.

Good call.

[BillyJoe]

My mom used to yell at me not to go outside with wet hair or I'd get a cold.

It could.

If you are harbouring a virus and your body temperature drops because you go outside with wet hair, those viruses could obtain a foothold because they replicate better at lower temperatures.
(And then your immune system raises your body temperature - by resetting the thermostat in the brain - to help fight the virus.)

There's often a little truth there.

[BillyJoe]

I found buildings in Japan that didn't have a numerical fourth floor, just as some old time buildings in America didn't have a 13th....It's enlightning to learn the various and contradictory superstitions of different cultures.

They may not be contradictory. It might be a racial difference. :cool:

[UnrepentantSinner]

It could.

If you are harbouring a virus and your body temperature drops because you go outside with wet hair, those viruses could obtain a foothold because they replicate better at lower temperatures.
(And then your immune system raises your body temperature - by resetting the thermostat in the brain - to help fight the virus.)

There's often a little truth there.

However it wouldn't be causing the cold, only facillitating currently present rhinovirus that my body had been successfuly fending off until that point.

I wonder if there are any actual studies.

[BillyJoe]

However it wouldn't be causing the cold, only facillitating currently present rhinovirus that my body had been successfuly fending off until that point.

Well, let's just say it would be causing it indirectly.

I wonder if there are any actual studies.

Not exactly a reliable source but:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4433496.stm

[DonJunbar]

The first fan death of the year has been reported. They found a man who died in a hotel room. His blood alcohol content was extremely high, and our friend the electric fan was pushing waves of death at him.

Someone else told me there was a special on TV about fan death, the main point being "It's real! Shut up!"

http://imnews.imbc.com/replay/nwdesk/article/2032618_2687.html
http://keyframe.imnews.imbc.com/desk/2007/06/07/1/Large_648828.jpg

[Slimething]

Oh, so young! Why didn't he listen? May the fan of death blow his soul to the radiator of happiness! :rolleyes:

[Puppycow]

OMG. My Japanese wife warned me about fan death. Good to see it's been debunked and now I can prove it to her. I grew up sleeping with a fan on my body during the summer as a means to keep cool. I still prefer it. But she freaked out about it and couldn't believe my ignorance about the grave danger. "Everyone knows about it" she told me. She's seen it in the news many times, so she assumed it was true.

[Zep]

You might tell her that nearly every person in the tropics (or, indeed, humid warm zones) use fans overnight to stay cool. It's considered a necessity, and it has been that way for all of recorded history. So far, there have been absolutely no reports of mass wipeouts due to "fan death". Quite the contrary - the people sleep better so they wake up fresher.

Also, what is the difference between a fan blowing on you, and having a window open and a breeze blowing on you?

[onemind]

lol, now i have heard everything.

Koreans are stupid.

j/k..

[BillyJoe]

Koreans are stupid.


Generalisation.
Look in your own back yard.
(Maybe even your mirror on occasion.)

:cool:

[RSLancastr]

Also, what is the difference between a fan blowing on you, and having a window open and a breeze blowing on you?Non-fresh versus fresh air, apparently.

[onemind]

Ok, koreans that believe in killer fan theory are stupid. Its a widespread belief making the majority of koreans stupid therefore koreans = stupid :)

I did write j/k..

[Beady]

The funny thing is that traditional Westen superstition held that windows should be tightly closed least the "miasmal night vapors" enter and cause disease.

The flip side of this are the stories about someone's grandmother, who would open all the windows in the house once a month for an entire day, even in the dead of winter, supposedly to exchange all the air in the house. The stories usually end up something like, "...and no one ever got sick."

[rjh01]

I do that every weekend. Stops the house from smelling. During the week in winter when I do not open the windows the house can smell.

[BillyJoe]

There's never any stale air in our house. Everyone leaves the goddamn door open.

[Rob Lister]

The first fan death of the year has been reported. They found a man who died in a hotel room. His blood alcohol content was extremely high, and our friend the electric fan was pushing waves of death at him.

Someone else told me there was a special on TV about fan death, the main point being "It's real! Shut up!"

http://imnews.imbc.com/replay/nwdesk/article/2032618_2687.html
http://keyframe.imnews.imbc.com/desk/2007/06/07/1/Large_648828.jpg

Dibs on the computer!

[Starthinker]

Okay, if someone pays all my expenses I volunteer to fly to the far east and live in a closed room with many fans going for 30 days. Who has contacts in Korea that can make it so?

[DonJunbar]

OMG. My Japanese wife warned me about fan death. Good to see it's been debunked and now I can prove it to her. I grew up sleeping with a fan on my body during the summer as a means to keep cool. I still prefer it. But she freaked out about it and couldn't believe my ignorance about the grave danger. "Everyone knows about it" she told me. She's seen it in the news many times, so she assumed it was true.

Wow, a Japanese person who believes it? I'd be curious where she learnt that from, because as far as I can tell it's a Korean phenomenon and not a belief shared by the Japanese. However, I do know Koreans have been exporting the belief to other countries slowly.

Ok, koreans that believe in killer fan theory are stupid. Its a widespread belief making the majority of koreans stupid therefore koreans = stupid :)

I did write j/k..

You should probably quit before you swallow your foot.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

Wow, a Japanese person who believes it? I'd be curious where she learnt that from, because as far as I can tell it's a Korean phenomenon and not a belief shared by the Japanese. However, I do know Koreans have been exporting the belief to other countries slowly.


I was curious myself. My wife is Japanese, and she had never heard of it before she came to Korea.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

Okay, if someone pays all my expenses I volunteer to fly to the far east and live in a closed room with many fans going for 30 days. Who has contacts in Korea that can make it so?

No need, no need. I have already performed said experiment a few years in a row, nearly every day during the summer.

Maybe my fan isn't strong enough. Hmm.

[rjh01]

I too, have slept many times with a ceiling fan on above the bed. All windows and doors have been shut.

Am sure many others have too.

[shuize]

I was curious myself. My wife is Japanese, and she had never heard of it before she came to Korea.

Some, although not all, Japanese believe in "fan death." I first encountered it while living in a Japanese dormitory while on foreign exchange in the early 90s. A number of my Japanese dorm mates swore it was true. Of course, other Japanese guys and the foreign exchange students mocked them for it.

[Puppycow]

Wow, a Japanese person who believes it? I'd be curious where she learnt that from, because as far as I can tell it's a Korean phenomenon and not a belief shared by the Japanese. However, I do know Koreans have been exporting the belief to other countries slowly.

She says her sister-in law (not my sister, her brother's wife). Maybe it's not quite so common here, but it exists. There is an ethnic Korean minority in Japan, so presumably this is a meme that has spread.

[Zep]

I too, have slept many times with a ceiling fan on above the bed. All windows and doors have been shut.

Am sure many others have too.And did you ever die?

[BillyJoe]

I spent the night with a fan once but I didn't die and neither did she...but it felt like we did.

[Starthinker]

No need, no need. I have already performed said experiment a few years in a row, nearly every day during the summer.

Maybe my fan isn't strong enough. Hmm.

But did you do it on a live network feed with the news following your progress so they could captivate viewers with a possible live death captured for their entertainment?

[mikex1337]

I've heard this from a friend... his explanation was that the fan dehydrates your body while you sleep, and I've believed it ever since. But I guess that I'm wrong. I must try this tonight!

[K-W]

I have an extremely hard time sleeping without a fan on me year round. Theres certainly some truth to fans causing dehydration. I more or less have to chug a bottle of water in the morning to get my body back in working order, I imagine a person more sensitive to the effects of dehydration would want to avoid having a fan blowing directly on them all night unless they were in an extremely humid environment. But even if someone died of dehydration with a fan contributing to water loss, it wouldn't be fan death, it would be death by dehydration with a fan contributing to the water loss and there would have to be other factors involved.

[BillyJoe]

Well, then, it's not the dehydration either, it's the kidney's packing up....

[skeptigirl]

It could.

If you are harbouring a virus and your body temperature drops because you go outside with wet hair, those viruses could obtain a foothold because they replicate better at lower temperatures.
(And then your immune system raises your body temperature - by resetting the thermostat in the brain - to help fight the virus.)

There's often a little truth there.Unless you have some research here Billy, I suggest you hold off on this conclusion and especially your hypothesis as to the reason.

There were two studies (and maybe a couple more I didn't see) that showed getting one's feet cold resulted in more colds. Both studies had small numbers of test subjects. At least one researcher hypothesized, (based on some other study showing that during respiratory virus outbreaks there were a fair number of asymptomatic infections), that the infections were asymptomatic and the cold feet caused them to become symptomatic.

But those studies are contradicted by a large number of studies that showed exposure to inclement weather and/or cold temperatures had no effect on one's immune system (excluding frostbite of course) or on the number or length of colds one experiences.

As to your hypothesis lower body temperature is more conducive to viral replication, show me the evidence.

About the only thing that is well documented is that cold temperature makes your nose run.

[skeptigirl]

The flip side of this are the stories about someone's grandmother, who would open all the windows in the house once a month for an entire day, even in the dead of winter, supposedly to exchange all the air in the house. The stories usually end up something like, "...and no one ever got sick."I don't know that once a month is enough but the principle here is actually sound.

[skeptigirl]

I too, have slept many times with a ceiling fan on above the bed. All windows and doors have been shut.

Am sure many others have too.A good ceiling fan on when you sleep can cut down on mosquito bites in the tropics and is the next best thing to a mosquito net for preventing disease. In addition, keeping a fan going around the food you are serving and eating keeps the bacteria carrying flies off the food as well.

[skeptigirl]

I have an extremely hard time sleeping without a fan on me year round. Theres certainly some truth to fans causing dehydration. I more or less have to chug a bottle of water in the morning to get my body back in working order, I imagine a person more sensitive to the effects of dehydration would want to avoid having a fan blowing directly on them all night unless they were in an extremely humid environment. But even if someone died of dehydration with a fan contributing to water loss, it wouldn't be fan death, it would be death by dehydration with a fan contributing to the water loss and there would have to be other factors involved.Think the physics through here, KW (and the rest of you who bought this).

The fan increases evaporation. Evaporation does not increase sweating, in fact it would have the opposite effect. As the sweat evaporates it carries away heat. You are cooler and sweat less. Once that sweat is outside of your body you've already lost it!!!! So having it then evaporate doesn't make your sweat glands replace it, your body temperature determines how much you sweat.

About all a fan might do is result in you breathing in drier air but you don't get dehydrated simply from 8 hours breathing in dry air.

[Art Vandelay]

The dog thing seems silly to me. Even if Koreans eat dogs, so what? It's not like there's anything objectively wrong with it. If we get to call them backwards for eating dogs, do Indians get to call us backwards for eating beef?

We get all worked up about foreign superstitions, and treat our own as natural. It's like all the horrible things some people point to in the Koran or the Hindu Scriprtures while the Bible's God-awful wonders are glossed over.
One man's superstition, is another's proverb.Difference is that Christians don't fly planes into buildings. I don't like Christianity, but it's not comparable to Islam.

And it's hilarious to see westerners say "Look at those superstitious people in other cultures! Why can't they be more like my culture, which is totally realistic and doesn't have any weird supersti--hey look, I think I see an image of the Virgin Mary in that puddle!" Those sort of people are seen as kooks in mainstream American culture. The impression that I get from this thread is that fan death is accepted truth, and reported on the news. I also get the impression that in India, homeopathy is widely regarded as a completely legitimate form of medicine.

The fan increases evaporation. Evaporation does not increase sweating, in fact it would have the opposite effect. As the sweat evaporates it carries away heat. You are cooler and sweat less. Once that sweat is outside of your body you've already lost it!!!! So having it then evaporate doesn't make your sweat glands replace it, your body temperature determines how much you sweat.

About all a fan might do is result in you breathing in drier air but you don't get dehydrated simply from 8 hours breathing in dry air.But are there issues other than sweating? Does a lower humidity of the air mean that your lungs give up more water? Does water leave the skin through osmosis?

[skeptigirl]

...

Difference is that Christians don't fly planes into buildings. I don't like Christianity, but it's not comparable to Islam.Not to hijack the thread here but apparently you missed history class when they covered the Crusades. Maybe there weren't any planes back then but that didn't stop the Christians from slaughtering Muslims including children. I believe it was the Muslim conquerer, Suliman who actually conquered the Christians and then didn't slaughter them all, bucking the centuries of tradition.

...Those sort of people are seen as kooks in mainstream American culture. The impression that I get from this thread is that fan death is accepted truth, and reported on the news. I also get the impression that in India, homeopathy is widely regarded as a completely legitimate form of medicine.Hey, half the country still believes Saddam was behind the 9/11 attack so I wouldn't be sitting so high on that horse of yours if I am reading your post correctly.

Not to mention more people in this country don't believe in evolution compared to any other modern country.

...But are there issues other than sweating? Does a lower humidity of the air mean that your lungs give up more water? Does water leave the skin through osmosis?Not enough to result in a fan having any impact on dehydration.

[skeptigirl]

Tried to find this on SNOPES but I couldn't. But I did find this trivia on fan deaths.

The straight dope (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a970912.html)

wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death)

Hilarious blog entry (http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/2006/09/fan-death-is-real_12.html)Fans kill thousands of people each year, but most of the deaths go unreported because the fans were in a different room. It's a little-known fact that the whirling blades cause disturbance in the ether that pervades the universe, and the ripple effect impairs organisms up to 500 feet distant.

This summer, fans killed several of my son's pets. First a stag beetle died when our cat, driven mad by ripples in the ether, overturned the beetle's plastic terrarium and fought the poor beetle to its death. Miraculously, the cat survived. Our eel was not so lucky as the cat. Driven insane by the whirling blades' insidious disturbance of the ether, it managed to flip itself out of its aquarium -- through a tiny hole in the top!! -- and die. We found it on the floor ... shriveled and dry. That could happen to you, too. Since then, two other stag beetles have died. Snails as well. And a goldfish has turned deathly white! Scary.

Miraculously, our cats and children have survived, but we're taking no more chances, especially now that our two fans have begun to alter weather patterns in our apartment. In the past two days, they've actually been blowing cool air at night -- even though there's no air-conditioning unit attached! We think that the fans are now trying to freeze us to death, so we've put them away in a closet, completely covered in a bag zipped carefully shut to prevent them from doing even more damage.

Fans are killers. Why do you think that they're called fans? The word "fan" is short for "fanatic." You can't trust fanatics. Don't trust fans, either.

[skeptigirl]

I think it is important to consider the factors that go into large segments of the population believing myths before suggesting such hypotheses as it has anything to do with national or ethnic intelligence.

There is this little thing called wealth. We have the luxury of computers and TVs in the majority of households. We have the luxury of sending all our kids to school as opposed to having them quit to work and support the family. There is no excuse for half the people in this country believing in Intelligent Design and Irreducible Complexity. There's no excuse for how many people suck up without question the tripe they are fed every day from the mainstream news. We are not on top of math education surveys, science education surveys, knowledge of geography, lowest infant mortality and so on but we certainly should be.

Harvard grads were interviewed in a study a while back and the majority of them couldn't correctly explain how the seasons occur or what causes the Moon phases. They cited distance from the Earth to the Sun and the Earth's shadow respectively.

I personally don't feel very smug about the intelligence and or education of the American people. The whole JREF movement wouldn't be necessary if critical thinking was actually common place.

[Slimething]

Not to hijack the thread here but apparently you missed history class when they covered the Crusades.

And the Inquisition and the Male Maleficarum and the conquest of the New World and... When they got tired of slaughtering or being slaughtered by Muslims, they turned to easier prey like witches, Jews, aboriginals, and so on. The only thing that really stopped them was the skepticism that the Renaissance brought. Nah, Muslims have nothing on Christians in the mass murder department.

I believe it was the Muslim conquerer, Suliman who actually conquered the Christians and then didn't slaughter them all, bucking the centuries of tradition.

It was Saladin, not Suliman.

Not enough to result in a fan having any impact on dehydration.

There is no way a fan will cause fatal dehydration while you sleep. If tht is the cause of death (very doubtful), it is more probably caused by the heat that is the reason the fan was on to begin with. Central air conditioners also have fans so why not mass deaths in hotels, hospitals, etc?

I live in Arizona where the relative humidity is usually around 10% and we have fans on all the time. People don't die here from fans. People do die of heat prostration and heat stroke but they usually don't have fans blowing on them when they do that.

[skeptigirl]

...

It was Saladin, not Suliman.....Darn, I knew I should have looked it up. :)

[Miss Whiplash]

A good ceiling fan on when you sleep can cut down on mosquito bites in the tropics and is the next best thing to a mosquito net for preventing disease. In addition, keeping a fan going around the food you are serving and eating keeps the bacteria carrying flies off the food as well.

It's not working all that well in North Carolina of late. I run the ceiling fan at night, have the A/C on, windows closed and still get bit at 2 AM. With the temperatures of late (97 F + high humidity), that's approaching tropical.

[UnrepentantSinner]

I spent the night with a fan once but I didn't die and neither did she...but it felt like we did.

Was there at least a petite morte?

[DonJunbar]

Actually, there do seem to be a lot of benefits from what people have said here to sleeping with a fan on. Personally I always have, even in the winter when it was -30 outside.

The other day my wife insisted I sleep under a blanket because the fan was on us. She doesn't believe in fan death anymore but she still believes it will give me a stomach ache.

[zenotype]

Greetings from Yeong-Gwang (S. Korea), my little corner of the divinely inspired petri dish.

Mmm, I think the probability of death is relative to the rotation and proximity of the motor with respect to the head of the person in the enclosed environ. Risks are increased if the person involved first suffers from a cardiac arrest, alcohol poisoning, or a case of death while enclosed in the room; This is the only conclusion I can come up with. :cool:

[MortFurd]

How about this:
Temperature above 105F. Humidity near 100%.

Cooling by evaporation won't cool your body under those conditions. Evaporation only works when the air can absorb more moisture. No evaporation, no cooling.

So, you are blowing more hot air onto your body. Effectively, you are heating yourself with the fan you meant to cool yourself with.

So, in the belief that the fan is helping cool you, you sit (or lie) there in your room and die of heat stroke (what's the proper expression for that?) Combination of dehydration and over heating.

Under those conditions, you need to find a way to cool yourself for real. Those conditions will get you anyway. The fan just fools people into sitting still long enough for it to happen, and maybe contributes a little to the heating.

[UnrepentantSinner]

MortFurd, by your reasoning we should have had millions of deaths in the Southern U.S. between the advent of the electric fan and the widespread use of air conditioning, but I'm unaware of any statistics bearing that out.

[rjh01]

I think the flaw in MortFord's argument are the words 'Humidity near 100%.' In reality it will be enough below 100% for humans to keep a steady temperature. A fan will help by ensuring that the air around you is kept below 100% humidity.

[MortFurd]

I think the flaw in MortFord's argument are the words 'Humidity near 100%.' In reality it will be enough below 100% for humans to keep a steady temperature. A fan will help by ensuring that the air around you is kept below 100% humidity.
Yup. That's the question. How high does the humidity have to be, and how high does the room temperature have to be before you have a problem.

I don't know, but I can imagine conditions where it could be a problem. Those (rare) conditions might be a basis for the story.

[Foolmewunz]

never mind - misread a line and went all snakes-on-a-plane

[BillyJoe]

Unless you have some research here Billy, I suggest you hold off on this conclusion and especially your hypothesis as to the reason.


I am not a researcher, just passing on what I have heard form medical specialists.

There were two studies (and maybe a couple more I didn't see) that showed getting one's feet cold resulted in more colds. Both studies had small numbers of test subjects. At least one researcher hypothesized, (based on some other study showing that during respiratory virus outbreaks there were a fair number of asymptomatic infections), that the infections were asymptomatic and the cold feet caused them to become symptomatic.


That would seem to support that view.

But those studies are contradicted by a large number of studies that showed exposure to inclement weather and/or cold temperatures had no effect on one's immune system (excluding frostbite of course) or on the number or length of colds one experiences.


I didn't say it affected the immune system, only that the viruses replicate better at lower temperatures and hence would have a greater chance of taking hold in the body if the body was harbouring the virus and if the body temperature dropped.

As to your hypothesis lower body temperature is more conducive to viral replication, show me the evidence.


It is not my hypothesis. It is what I have been told and what googling seemed to support at the time. I don't know if I have enough time to google it extensively again and argue the reults but here is one quickly:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1965095&dopt=Abstract

...hyperthermia...of 41 C acts as an inhibitory agent on HSV-1 and VSV virus replication in Vero cells.



About the only thing that is well documented is that cold temperature makes your nose run.


It makes your nose, ears, hands and feet cold. It makes you shiver and get "goosebumps". It makes susceptible individuals cough or wheeze. If sufficiently cold it can cause gangrene and even death.

[DonJunbar]

If fan death is caused by climate factors, why Korea? Korea's climate is not particularly unique. It's fairly humid, and there is about a month-long stretch in the summer when temperatures are oppressively hot. But even Japan is hotter and more humid. Why isn't fan death more well known in places like the Phillippines or all the equatorial regions?

And speaking as someone who has survived four Korean summers, a fan does cool you off by evaporating the perspiration on your skin faster. It really is useful.

[Starthinker]

One day I noticed my coworker, who is a little woo-ish, staring at the servers. Our office is the server/equipment room. I asked him what he was thinking and he told me that he counted 44 fans in all the equipment. A couple per server, some of the routers and switches have little fans, and at least one or two in the computers. Not to mention the AC and air-moving fans we have going.

He said, "What if all those fans are creating little energy vortexes going in all different directions and they all twist and fight with each other and in turn, twist and fight with the energy in my body?" As a joke I gave him a quartz crystal the very next day (I have a big jar of them at home for just this purpose) and told him the natural vibrations of quartz will help keep him safe.

He worked here another year after that before he left for another job but in all that time he always carried that quartz crystal. He also got one to keep in his desk.

I almost considered using this as a sales ploy to move some crystals. I'm still not evil enough, though.

I still volunteer to go to Korea and live in a room full of fans. I've slept with one me for the better part of 15 years just because I need the white noise. Even in the coldest winters it's on in my closed up bedroom, and no, I don't get thirsty either.

[skeptigirl]

It's not working all that well in North Carolina of late. I run the ceiling fan at night, have the A/C on, windows closed and still get bit at 2 AM. With the temperatures of late (97 F + high humidity), that's approaching tropical.That's why I said it was second best after a net. Have you thought about putting a lovely canopy over your bed? They make some stylish mosquito nets. Or, if you furnish your house like I do in Recycled American or College Innovation, you can sew one and string it up with simple cord and a few nails. :D

[skeptigirl]

I am not a researcher, just passing on what I have heard form medical specialists.Which of course is not a guarantee.
That would seem to support that view.The nature of medical research is you go with the preponderance of evidence and ignore the abnormal results. So it then comes down to, is there a preponderance or is the jury still out?

The evidence strongly suggests no relation between cold and colds other than viruses may live longer on surfaces and people share more indoor air in the winter making some viruses spread more easily. However, the two studies were interesting and deserve more investigation. But until then, they are not in and of themselves sufficient to conclude the vast majority of the research examining this issue are wrong.
I didn't say it affected the immune system, only that the viruses replicate better at lower temperatures and hence would have a greater chance of taking hold in the body if the body was harbouring the virus and if the body temperature dropped....It is not my hypothesis. It is what I have been told and what googling seemed to support at the time. I don't know if I have enough time to google it extensively again and argue the reults but here is one quickly:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1965095&dopt=Abstract
41C is a very high fever. (105.8F) You were talking about someone with a normal temperature and you have no evidence core body temperature would even be changed in the described circumstances, because it isn't.

Your body just compensates, that's what being "warm-blooded" means. It means we regulate our temperature to maintain it at a different degree than the ambient temperature. Cold blooded animals have body temperatures similar to the ambient temperature. They have to sit in the Sun to warm up. We do it by burning calories.

I merely said hold off on your conclusion. IE it may be true but there is not sufficient evidence to state it as a fact.

[skeptigirl]

How about this:
Temperature above 105F. Humidity near 100%.

Cooling by evaporation won't cool your body under those conditions. Evaporation only works when the air can absorb more moisture. No evaporation, no cooling.

So, you are blowing more hot air onto your body. Effectively, you are heating yourself with the fan you meant to cool yourself with.

So, in the belief that the fan is helping cool you, you sit (or lie) there in your room and die of heat stroke (what's the proper expression for that?) Combination of dehydration and over heating.

Under those conditions, you need to find a way to cool yourself for real. Those conditions will get you anyway. The fan just fools people into sitting still long enough for it to happen, and maybe contributes a little to the heating.

Stating what Unrepentant said, but in different words, you are posing an hypothesis for the cause before there is evidence the phenomena actually even occurs.

[Slimething]

How about this:
Temperature above 105F. Humidity near 100%.

So, you are blowing more hot air onto your body. Effectively, you are heating yourself with the fan you meant to cool yourself with.

When you say "hot air", what do you mean? Is the air being heated or are you refering to 105 F air? If the latter, the fan would have no effect on your body temperature as the scenario would be adiabatic.

However, when have you ever been in a room with 100% relative humidity or anywhere close to that? Have you ever been in a foggy or rainy room?

[BillyJoe]

Which of course is not a guarantee.


No, I have been put on the wrong track before by medical experts.
Goddamn, who exactly can you trust these days. :(

The nature of medical research is you go with the preponderance of evidence and ignore the abnormal results. So it then comes down to, is there a preponderance or is the jury still out?


Sounds like you have researched this and you are about to give me the answer...

The evidence strongly suggests no relation between cold and colds other than viruses may live longer on surfaces and people share more indoor air in the winter making some viruses spread more easily. However, the two studies were interesting and deserve more investigation. But until then, they are not in and of themselves sufficient to conclude the vast majority of the research examining this issue are wrong.


That is a surprise. If I get time I will check that out.
When I was told viruses replicate faster at lower temperatures and that is why our immune systems reset our body temperature to a higher level (to reduce viral replication), it seemed so reasonable to me. Damn those medical experts.

41C is a very high fever. (105.8F) You were talking about someone with a normal temperature and you have no evidence core body temperature would even be changed in the described circumstances, because it isn't.


No, this was specifically addressing the question of whether viruses replicate more slowly at higher temperatures. It seems to support that hypothesis. Nevermind.

Your body just compensates, that's what being "warm-blooded" means. It means we regulate our temperature to maintain it at a different degree than the ambient temperature. Cold blooded animals have body temperatures similar to the ambient temperature. They have to sit in the Sun to warm up. We do it by burning calories.


What about the temperature inside your nose where, I assume, some of the viruses repicate? Is that at core body temperature? My guess would be it would be significantly cooler. It is winter here now and I have a thermometer, so if you wish to challenge this I will perform an experiment (n=1)

I merely said hold off on your conclusion. IE it may be true but there is not sufficient evidence to state it as a fact.

Fair enough. My confidence in my original statement is hereby on hold.
I may return.

[skeptigirl]

Fevers may be a beneficial immune mechanism, but it's apples and oranges that less is better when you are talking about normal body temperature. In other words, just because 41C kills some viruses doesn't mean 96 or 95 is better than 98 for those same organisms.

You are correct that the conditions in the nasopharynx are conducive to the growth of typical cold viruses. The question to first ask is does making one's feet cold or one's hair wet in a cold clime, actually change the temperature in one's nasopharynx. It is clear that inhaling cold air does. My biggest gripe with the two studies was they didn't do the most simple verification of seeing what effect cold feet had on the nasopharynx. Nor did they even attempt to show what they were doing did anything other than making people's feet cold.

At least the hypothesis that the viruses were already infecting the study subjects and the cold merely triggered symptoms gets past the fact viruses cause colds, cold doesn't. But there are a few more holes to be filled before I'm buying their conclusions.

[Molinaro]

I have been sleeping with a fan a couple feet from my face for the past 30+ years, 365 days a year.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Think the physics through here, KW (and the rest of you who bought this).

The fan increases evaporation. Evaporation does not increase sweating, in fact it would have the opposite effect. As the sweat evaporates it carries away heat. You are cooler and sweat less. Once that sweat is outside of your body you've already lost it!!!! So having it then evaporate doesn't make your sweat glands replace it, your body temperature determines how much you sweat.

About all a fan might do is result in you breathing in drier air but you don't get dehydrated simply from 8 hours breathing in dry air.

:thanks

saved me some typing!!


:hobbes:

[Deus Ex Machina]

MortFurd, by your reasoning we should have had millions of deaths in the Southern U.S. between the advent of the electric fan and the widespread use of air conditioning, but I'm unaware of any statistics bearing that out.


But there have been millions of deaths in the Southern US between the advent of the electric fan and the widespread use of air conditioning...

[BillyJoe]

I have been sleeping with a fan a couple feet from my face for the past 30+ years, 365 days a year.

So, when you divorced your wife, your girlfriend moved in the very next day???

[K-W]

With due respect skeptigirl I never claimed that fans increased sweating and as you yourself addressed not all moisture loss occurs through sweating, I am ill informed about the issue but not completely ignorant :p


About all a fan might do is result in you breathing in drier air but you don't get dehydrated simply from 8 hours breathing in dry air.

Perhaps you are right, I have no idea what the difference is in water loss here, it may very well be negligible. It is of course completely possible that I have felt a phenomenon which does not actually exist.


To comment on another issue, flying planes into buildings is pointless when you can fly planes over buildings and drop bombs on them. People from all nations and creeds have shown and continue to show every day that they are willing to take the lives of civilians and sacrifice their own lives for their beliefs.

[BillyJoe]

Skeptigirl,

Thanks very much!

I haven't had time to research whether cold causes a cold, but I performed an experiment (n=1).
It is winter here and yesterday I went to work in a short sleeved shirt.
On the way home I developed generalised aches and pains.
This morning I have nasal congestion and the beginnings of a cough.

My dogs are going to miss their long walk through the Dandenongs this weekend.
They thank you also.

BillyJoe.

[skeptigirl]

With due respect skeptigirl I never claimed that fans increased sweating and as you yourself addressed not all moisture loss occurs through sweating, I am ill informed about the issue but not completely ignorant :p ... Perhaps you are right, I have no idea what the difference is in water loss here, it may very well be negligible. It is of course completely possible that I have felt a phenomenon which does not actually exist.You said it might be possible dehydration from a fan could cause death and thus be a source for this myth. I merely addressed the physiological basis why that was incorrect. I don't get your beef here? You aren't going to get dehydrated from a fan blowing on you. With due respect, how would I know what you believed or didn't believe the mechanism for such a death would be?

I agree with your other point.

[skeptigirl]

Skeptigirl,

Thanks very much!

I haven't had time to research whether cold causes a cold, but I performed an experiment (n=1).
It is winter here and yesterday I went to work in a short sleeved shirt.
On the way home I developed generalised aches and pains.
This morning I have nasal congestion and the beginnings of a cough.

My dogs are going to miss their long walk through the Dandenongs this weekend.
They thank you also.

BillyJoe.I suggest you add to this data by surveying every other person at your work site and everywhere else you went or who might have left viral material on a surface you touched and see how many of them are also ill. Then determine which of them were exposed to cold. Next calculate any difference between those exposed to cold and those not so exposed.

Then you will have to determine what effect wearing short sleeves had vs long sleeves given your face, I presume, was uncovered either way. And then there is the temperature of the air you are breathing. What effect did the short sleeves have on your upper airway that breathing cold air every single cold day didn't have?

[BillyJoe]

I suggest you add to this data by surveying every other person at your work site and everywhere else you went or who might have left viral material on a surface you touched and see how many of them are also ill. Then determine which of them were exposed to cold. Next calculate any difference between those exposed to cold and those not so exposed.

Then you will have to determine what effect wearing short sleeves had vs long sleeves given your face, I presume, was uncovered either way. And then there is the temperature of the air you are breathing. What effect did the short sleeves have on your upper airway that breathing cold air every single cold day didn't have?


That's a strange reply to a light hearted post. :D

But I understand what you are saying (hence my n=1 ;) )
Saying I was in short sleeves was shorthand for saying that I decided to spend the whole day feeling cold, which included my hands, feet, nose and chest. I didn't actually expect to get a cold that very day.

The dogs are waiting at the back door, looking in through the glass, watching my every move. The little one is starting to grumble.....

:mad:

[skeptigirl]

That's a strange reply to a light hearted post. :D

But I understand what you are saying (hence my n=1 ;) )
Saying I was in short sleeves was shorthand for saying that I decided to spend the whole day feeling cold, which included my hands, feet, nose and chest. I didn't actually expect to get a cold that very day.

The dogs are waiting at the back door, looking in through the glass, watching my every move. The little one is starting to grumble.....

:mad:I was worried you were claiming I just gave you evidence supporting woo. I didn't know you were kidding. Sorry, my bad.

[bragoria]

I first found out about Fan Death after stumbling across it in Wikipedia. It was unusual enough to stick in my momory.

A few weeks later, I discovered that a Korean housemate would soon be moving into my house. Unfortunately, it was winter in Australia when she moved in, so I had no choice but to twiddle my thumbs for six months...

...anyway, a few days later, she told me that she was afraid to leave the fan heater in her room on, in case she died during the night. I directed her to the Wikipedia article, as well as a few other web resources on the subject.

She was amazed - not just because of the articles that I showed her, but that I was able to type the URL of the Wikipedia article from memory (for those who don't know, all English Wikipedia articles start with the same URL prefix - I just had to add the words Fan death to the end).

Then it hit me - my housemate was so predictable, I was able to prepare my side of the conversation in advance, three weeks before I even met her.

Thankfully, she did agree to perform the experiment. She told me that she left the fan on overnight, with all the doors and windows shut. She seemed rather disappointed by the successful outcome.

[BillyJoe]

I was worried you were claiming I just gave you evidence supporting woo. I didn't know you were kidding. Sorry, my bad.


The story has a sad ending.

Late Sunday afternoon, I felt well enough to take the poor things for a shorter walk along the pipeline. I let them in through the back door and the little one was so excited by this time that she slipped on the polished floor, hyperextended one of its back legs, and ruptured the anterior cruciate ligament.

:(

(If it will make you feel better, I will send you the bill. :D)

[Art Vandelay]

Still, presenting your opinion Americans are less likely to believe in myths than Koreans is not credible unless you have something substantial to back it up. Americans are not on the top of the least gullible list by any means.
When did I claim that?

[skeptigirl]

When did I claim that?When you posted this:Originally Posted by DonJunbar:And it's hilarious to see westerners say "Look at those superstitious people in other cultures! Why can't they be more like my culture, which is totally realistic and doesn't have any weird supersti--hey look, I think I see an image of the Virgin Mary in that puddle!"
Those sort of people are seen as kooks in mainstream American culture. The impression that I get from this thread is that fan death is accepted truth, and reported on the news. I also get the impression that in India, homeopathy is widely regarded as a completely legitimate form of medicine.

[K-W]

You said it might be possible dehydration from a fan could cause death and thus be a source for this myth.

Not really.

I said that I have felt more dehydrated after sleeping with a fan than without. Which led me to believe it has some small effect on water loss and introduced a hypothetical of someone who was already extremely dehydrated or had some other condition where this small effect might contribute to a death. I then said I would not classify such a thing as fan death even if it were to happen.

Obviously such an unlikely scenario if even possible would not happen often enough to be the source of the myth.

I merely addressed the physiological basis why that was incorrect. I don't get your beef here? You aren't going to get dehydrated from a fan blowing on you. With due respect, how would I know what you believed or didn't believe the mechanism for such a death would be?

Obviously my original post was not clear to you and you thought that I was suggesting fans can kill someone by dehydrating them and that I had 'bought this'. You then proceeded to explain to me how sweat works, something I did learn in elementary school.

I have no beef with you, I thought my use of a smiley face indicated that I found it funny. Just a simple misunderstanding and the second part of your post did in fact address what I had written. I have no particular knowledge of the water amounts involved, it just seemed plausible that a fan blowing air directly on my face which contains semi-exposed moist surfaces could cause water loss.

[BillyJoe]

KW,

If Skeptigirl can snap my little dog's cruciate ligament from a thousand miles away, anything is possible.

:D

[skeptigirl]

Hey, I didn't hurt your little dog. I like little dogs. ;)

KW, the additional evaporation effects of a fan would not have a significant impact, even on a seriously dehydrated person. A fan would cool the body and conserve water. Can we please put your hypothesis to rest without more discussion?

[LTC8K6]

I was stationed at Camp Sears in Uijongbu in 1992. I can attest that a fan blowing on me in a closed room did not kill me, despite numerous chances.

[BillyJoe]

Hey, I didn't hurt your little dog. I like little dogs. ;)

Just in case you think this is all a made up story...

Milly had her operation today and is recovering in front of the fire.
Luckily for you, the vet did the repair for nothing, so I won't have to send Maxwell over with his silver hammer. We have an agreement with the vet - my wife keeps the his computers running and he keeps our animals running :)

[skeptigirl]

Well I am glad little Millie is OK. :D

[BillyJoe]

It seems part of this thread has ended up somewhere else.
Maybe Milly can get her own thread as well. :)


(BTW, you have the correct spelling according to my kids)

[skeptigirl]

Well I know where it went but I'm not going to chase it there. :) There was no more to say on the subject.

[BillyJoe]

Skeptigirl.

I want you to realise the enormity of what you have done.

Milly broke down and actually cried when I left for a walk this Sunday with our other dog Ralph. I saw her through the window hobbling along on three legs, slipping and sliding over, picking herself up and throwing herself against the front door in a vain attempt to crash through and to catch up after us.

It was truely a pitiful sight. :(

BJ

[Whiplash]

I have to say this one really suprises me.

I am one of those people who cannot sleep without the sound of a fan (or in general, white noise). I find it too quiet without one, and find it very hard to sleep.

I am nearly 40 and have had a fan blowing all night just about every single night of my life.. certainly going back at least 25-30 years. I'd say 99% of the nights.. only when I could not actually have a fan (on the road, etc), would I not use one. Virtually always in a closed room. Nearly always blowing right on me, even in the dead of winter.

Needless to say I've never had any problems whatsoever.

[Slimething]

I am one of those people who cannot sleep without the sound of a fan (or in general, white noise). ...
I am nearly 40 and have had a fan blowing all night just about every single night of my life.. certainly going back at least 25-30 years. I'd say 99% of the nights.. only when I could not actually have a fan (on the road, etc), would I not use one. Virtually always in a closed room. Nearly always blowing right on me, even in the dead of winter.

I'm very sorry, Whiplash. You will die. It is almost a certainty. :D

[rjh01]

Almost? Almost? You mean he night live? I find that hard to believe.

[skeptigirl]

Skeptigirl.

I want you to realise the enormity of what you have done.

Milly broke down and actually cried when I left for a walk this Sunday with our other dog Ralph. I saw her through the window hobbling along on three legs, slipping and sliding over, picking herself up and throwing herself against the front door in a vain attempt to crash through and to catch up after us.

It was truely a pitiful sight. :(

BJ
Well you should have carried Milly along with you, you mean person.

We had this problem. One of my dogs kept holding her back leg up as if it hurt. So the vet told us to rest it. Riiiight. A dog that jumps 3 feet off the ground over and over whenever she is excited (which is whenever she sees you even if you've only gone out to get the mail). I left her out of a couple walks and figured if she was going to jump like that anyway it was a lost cause. Eventually she just started limping less.

But then, she didn't have surgery. Rent a stroller. :)

[Slimething]

Almost? Almost? You mean he night live? I find that hard to believe.

I have been known to make exceptions. Yes, I might let him live. :p

[BillyJoe]

But he WILL die....eventually!

[DonJunbar]

KBS just released an article attempting to debunk fan death. Here's the link, although it's in Korean.
http://news.kbs.co.kr/article/science/200707/20070730/1399775.html

They ran a series of tests (sound familiar) comparing adult males sleeping with the fan on and with the fan off. Their conclusions were that sleeping with the fan on results in more exposure to oxygen, rather than less, and that the fan cannot significantly lower body temperature. I think sceptics are starting to figure it out and rallying against fan death, but it is still a deeply entrenched belief among most Koreans.

There are some interesting comments at the bottom.
-one girl writes that she slept with the fan on in a small room, and when she woke up she was completely paralysed. She believes in fan death.
-Another person writes that he always thought it was a silly belief, but everyone else forced him to sleep with the fan on.
-That's three for fan death and two against, in the comments.

[DonJunbar]

Translation.
http://koreabeat.com/?p=184

What I missed before is two outraged netizens complained about KBS' irresponsibility for claiming fan death is a myth, calling for them to air a correction, and condemning KBS to 10 000 years of suffering.

[skeptigirl]

KBS just released an article attempting to debunk fan death. Here's the link, although it's in Korean.
http://news.kbs.co.kr/article/science/200707/20070730/1399775.html

They ran a series of tests (sound familiar) comparing adult males sleeping with the fan on and with the fan off. Their conclusions were that sleeping with the fan on results in more exposure to oxygen, rather than less, and that the fan cannot significantly lower body temperature. I think sceptics are starting to figure it out and rallying against fan death, but it is still a deeply entrenched belief among most Koreans.

There are some interesting comments at the bottom.
-one girl writes that she slept with the fan on in a small room, and when she woke up she was completely paralysed. She believes in fan death.
-Another person writes that he always thought it was a silly belief, but everyone else forced him to sleep with the fan on.
-That's three for fan death and two against, in the comments.This is fascinating. I cannot believe anyone would need to be convinced. Not in the modern world. Surely anyone truly interested in knowing if some tale they have been told is true or false they could simply look for a bit of info in the library or online and that should be the end of it. Mind boggling.

[RSLancastr]

This is fascinating. I cannot believe anyone would need to be convinced. Not in the modern world.

I work with a man who was raised in Korea, but has lived hre in the states for many years. Bright guy. Solid computer programming skills.

Swears that "fan death" is a real phenomenon. In fact, was very surprised when I showed him skeptical articles about it. I told him I've slept like that thousands of times in my life. Every time I see him in the hallway I rib him about it. ("Slept with the fan on yet?" "No, not yet...")

He's a bit sheepish sbout the belief now, but I can tell he isn't about to test the theory out any time soon.

Culture is a powerful thing.

[Zep]

Culture is EXTRAORDINARILY powerful in Korea especially...

[DonJunbar]

This is fascinating. I cannot believe anyone would need to be convinced. Not in the modern world. Surely anyone truly interested in knowing if some tale they have been told is true or false they could simply look for a bit of info in the library or online and that should be the end of it. Mind boggling.

It is amazing, yet why would anyone think to fact-check it at the library when there are newspapers, TV stations, doctors, and even fan manufacturers warning you about the danger lurking in the corner of your bedroom? I even have my doubts you could walk into a library and find a single book sceptical about fan death. What kind of boring library would stock books on fans?

[AgeGap]

It is a fact that sleeping with a fan in your room will cause death but only if you are Korean. This is due to their different genetic make up. On the plus side they can have mentos and cola safely as they digest food in a different manner to caucasians. :p

[Slimething]

It is a fact that sleeping with a fan in your room will cause death but only if you are Korean. This is due to their different genetic make up. On the plus side they can have mentos and cola safely as they digest food in a different manner to caucasians. :p

I've had no complaints from anyone who graduated my course on stopping locomotives with PurThought Powr (R) while standing on the tracks! Nobody shows up for the refresher courses, though. :(

[Davo]

Everyone uses air con and fans in an enclosed draft free space.......

When they drive their car. This space is smaller than a room so effects would be expected to be worse, which it isn`t.

Don`t see any evidence of people dying in their vehicles from having fan or aircon on.

[BillyJoe]

I think you have to go to sleep with the fan on.

I definitely would not recommend doing this whilst driving your car.

[Langis]

I'm surprised to hear that a practice I've been engaging in during hot summer nights for, oh, let me think... about eleven years or so, has in fact been killing me every night I've done it.

Damn. It's a good thing I loaded up on 1UP mushrooms when I was but a boy.

[Slimething]

I think you have to go to sleep with the fan on.

I definitely would not recommend doing this whilst driving your car.

To quote a good friend of mine:


I want to die peacefully in my sleep...not screaming and panic-stricken like my passengers.

[delusionworld]

I lived in Korea for 4 years and never heard of "fan death" and no one I knew would go without a fan blowing all day and night (it is HOT in the summer). The only ONLY reasons I could think of that some form of "fan death" might exist is from the heating systems. Basically, burning charcoal fills pipes under the floor with hot air, warming the house. Any US military living off base is required to live in a house that uses water to heat, but there are still plenty of the old style heating systems in use.

Traditionally, bedding is lain on the floor and a fan *might* stir up carbon monoxide that lays trapped from leaking pipes under the raised floors of the closed rooms up to the level of a sleeper.

[gelatin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death

I just heard about this tonight. Not that we don't have our equivalents here in the states, but I can't think of anything at the moment. Nothing this dire at least.

"Fan death is a South Korean urban legend which states that an electric fan, if left running overnight in a closed room, can cause the death (by suffocation, poisoning, or hypothermia) of those inside. Fans manufactured and sold in Korea are equipped with a timer switch that turns them off after a set number of minutes, which users are frequently urged to set when going to sleep with a fan on."

[arthwollipot]

I've heard of fan death, but I don't think that the woo is common outside Korea and some parts of China.

[UnrepentantSinner]

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=78497

If you change your tag to "fan death korea" both threads will show up during tag searches. :)

[Whiplash]

As I said in one of the other threads, I have slept in a closed room with a fan for the majority of my life. 30+ years at least. Nearly every single night. Would have been every single night if I could, I find the white noise soothing, but sometimes fans would break or I'd be out of town, etc. I also own a small device that plays sounds like rain on the roof and waves crashing on a shore for when I don't have a fan.

Never had any major health problems or issues that arose from it.

[devnull]

Dibs on the computer!

My brother had one of those cases. They suck balls. Seriously crappy.

He more than likely bled to death from wounds inflicted by his crappy PC case while trying to swap out the hard drive.

Or maybe they are right and his qi strangled his chi causing him to wi.

Actually my money is on "his girlfriend caught him surfing pr0n on his computer with the $5 case and beat him to death with the fan". Fan death. Yeh.

[BillyJoe]

Whiplash, you might just be the exception that proves the rule. :D

[mayday]

I have slept in an enclosed room with an electric fan for years and here I am.

[Don At Work]

I was stationed at Camp Sears in Uijongbu in 1992. I can attest that a fan blowing on me in a closed room did not kill me, despite numerous chances.

I was at Camp Castle in Tong Du Chon, and had a fan running for at LEAST 2 months straight during the summer (1989).

Still here. Or so I claim.

[luchog]

Not to hijack the thread here but apparently you missed history class when they covered the Crusades. Maybe there weren't any planes back then but that didn't stop the Christians from slaughtering Muslims including children.

Just to correct an inaccuracy, unlike most of the Muslim terrorism, the Crusades were not religiously motivated, they were politically motivated. in fact, they originally began as a defense against encroachment into the Middle East and Europe of Islamic conquerors, who had no qualms against slaughtering Christian, Jewish, and Pagan women and children.

Religion merely provided a convenient cover story and method of firing up the serf levies.

The earliest, and indeed a substantial number of later, Crusades didn't involve Islam at all, but were directed primarily at the Cathars and similar heretics and political enemies of the Pope. Even these were not necessarily religiously based, but due more to the fact that they were breakaways who formed a notably opposition to Papal political influence,

The primary motivation for the later Crusades was extending the empire, to increase the wealth and power of the ruling classes; and providing occupation for an increasingly large and restless population of young nobility, in order to prevent them causing trouble at home. Due to Roman secular influence, the Church became involved because it was increasingly becoming a political entity more concerned with temporal power than religious influence; and also saw it as a way to expand their influence and channel some of that wealth to their own coffers. It was a culmination of a trend which started in the early Medieval period and the expansion into western Europe; and which was partially reversed by the Reformation. This melding of Church and State was heavily criticized by many in the Church, particularly after the Great Schism, and was a serious point of contention between East and West.

Islam was in a considerably different positon, in that there was no tradition of seperation of Church and State. In fact, exactly the opposite is true, Islam allows no such seperation, and prescribes a specific theocratic government as the ideal, with the Khalif holding both supreme temporal power, and supreme, or at least co-equal, religious authority. It also promotes forced conversion, enslavement or subjugation of non-Muslims, and violent elimination of any people unwilling to convert or live as subjugated peoples. There has never been the same opposition to violent expansion and conquest in the historical Islamic world as there has among the Christian and Jewish worlds.


I believe it was the Muslim conquerer, Suliman who actually conquered the Christians and then didn't slaughter them all, bucking the centuries of tradition.

I am unable to find any info on a leader called Suliman. The closest I could find were Saladin, the leader of the majority of the Islamic world during the early Crusades; and Suleiman the Magnificent, who was the leader of the later Ottoman empire. Neither one had any qualms about slaughtering women and children during their reign.

Saladin did refrain from such wholesale slaughter on two occasions. The first being during his conquest of Jerusalem, and then only under the threat of wholesale slaughter of Muslims and the destruction of the Jerusalem mosques by Balian of Ibelin, leader of the forces defending the city. The second was the result of a series of "gentleman's agreements" between him and Richard Coeur de Lion, who he greatly respected, and who had manage to successfully stall his advances into Europe.

Suleiman was the leader of the Ottoman Empire well after the end of the Crusades, during the Reformation/Rennaisance period. His conquest of much of Europe was every bit as bloody as any previous war; and it wasn't until later in his rule, when he had consolidated his empire, that he began to institute reforms. And even then, Shari'ah was the dominant ruling code, and all of his civil reforms and legislation were carefully kept from violating Shari'ah principles.

[Whiplash]

But he WILL die....eventually!


And odds are, it'll be in my bedroom, with the door closed, and the fan running. I guess it'll finally catch up with me ;)