I am so angry!

[cgallaga]

On September 11, 2001, My partner and I arrived back to Hong Kong from LAX on UA2, got back to our apartment directly from the airport, switched on the TV, and watched, stunned, as the events of that day unfolded. We saw it all. From the first reports to the end. I didn't sleep for 2 days. Maybe because I had flown on that day or maybe as an American abroad, I took great interest in learning the facts through the years as they unfolded, so I never thought too much about the CT's running around.

A few days ago my older brother sent out an email about loose change (he had just discovered it). His exact quote was "look at the science."

So I watched the rebuttal version from screw loose change(intending to send it to him) and I have only made it half way through...to the part where the guys on the 105th are talking to the rescue operator while the building collapses...

And now I am trying to recenter myself.

So how do you all, good CT refuters, keep your anger over this BS channeled to the highly productive use of refuting these claims?

Right now I can do nothing other than think about bitch slapping my brother.

Thanks, angry and sad,

Chris

[ref]

Congrats on your 500th post.

It's not always easy to be highly productive. When you face stupidity and recycled claims, stubborness and unwillingness to view the evidence, it's sometimes hard to keep your composure. But it's always better to give an insightful answer no matter what you hear, than to lower yourself to a screaming match. That's what the CT's are good at, shouting and yelling and ridiculing, and banning. I like to think, that we can be more than that.

[Foolmewunz]

So how do you all, good CT refuters, keep your anger over this BS channeled to the highly productive use of refuting these claims?


Sometimes we don't, frankly.

I joined here after lurking for years and reading SWIFT for the same, after stumbling across the exact insanity you're speaking of. I also live in Hong Kong, but I was actually in New York (across the river in Jersey City) on 9/11, and I watched the towers go down. Having worked on the 77th floor of #1 for 10 years, there was an instinctive, "There but for the grace of dog, go I" reaction, but like many here, I also lost some business friends that day. One was caught in the fires and died of complications about five days later, but others we just don't know exactly what happened - they're just not there/here any longer.

I went numb when I first saw this conspiracy crap. I'd seen the general anti-semitic rantings in the early days, but there's always a lunatic fringe out there blaming the evil jooz for everything, and you don't get exposure to indy media and the counter-culture working 12 hours a day and hanging out in The White Stag in Wanchai, as you know. I started asking every expat I knew, and almost to a man/woman the response was "Huh?". No one had any idea that this was going on.

I still go all snakes-on-a-plane on the CTers at times, but I try to remain calm. Besides, with the differences on the clock and must nutbars being in the USA, I'd get into a thread only to have to give it up for the evening, and then return in the a.m. to find eighty new posts, usually by terrific debunkers who'd shredded them.

You can't get to the die-hard CTers.... but you may still be able to get to your brother if he's only just discovering their nonsense. Assuming all that stuff about acorns and trees and that you come from the same gene pool, he ain't stupid! Hopefully just mis-directed.

The SLC stuff is good, but it puts LC supporters on the defensive, sometimes. I generally recommend 911Myths as a well-organized debunking site. The material doesn't go into great depth in some departments, and he (MikeW, a JREF forumite) has done as much as possible to leave the door open to alternative answers where there's nothing carved in stone.

(Invite your brother to the forum. We'll be gentle if he's respectful and not a rabid troofer yet. If his comment on checking out the science is indicative of a leaning in that direction, that could be good. The most easily refuted aspects of LC are their attempts at 'bad science'. We've had a number of CTers actually stand down, and they've remained. We've also had a number of anti-CTers, myself included, stick around and get involved in numerous other areas.)

[kimota]

The Kübler-Ross model applies to many things, not just death. Concerning the twoofers, it might go something like this:
1. Denial - They're not really serious about these theories, are they?
2. Anger - Ye Gods! What [rule8]ing idiots!!
3. Bargaining - Well, if I present the facts, perhaps they will see the error of their ways.
4. Depression - *SIGH* Don't they ever listen to reason? I don't see the point; it's like talking to a wall dressed in a black t-shirt.
5. Acceptance - Well, there's some utter nutters out there. Always have been; this is just a different flavor. But I can still speak for the benefit of some confused fence-sitters who might come through.

[The Doc]

Quite often we don't :(

The technique I use when I see something so insanely stupid it pisses me of is:
a) Type a reply
b) Don't hit "Post Reply"
c) Do something else for 5 minutes
d) Cool down, re-type reply
e) Reply :)

Works like a charm.

[boloboffin]

It still gets me. I remember about half a year ago, a truther provided a link to some new video footage with zero disclaimer, and I clicked on over to a clip of the second tower being hit. However, the north tower was in the frame, and it was a much closer shot than I'd seen before. You could see people hanging out of the windows.

And when the second tower was hit, the north tower felt the effects so much that people were shaken loose to plummet to their deaths - something I had never known before.

It hit me once again, the whole horror of the situation. I managed to get back to the message boards and post a terse rant about disclaimers before I just had to go for a breather.

Rational-emotive therapy has given me a great deal of peace over the years, and that helps to rachet down the outrage to a manageable level. It's hard, because we are dealing with an emotional event that can just turn on you without warning. But people are going to say and do as they want about those events, and me popping a vein about it isn't going to stop them.

Just doing something more to frustrate the lies and the ignorance helps as well.

[gumboot]

For me personally I have the "advantage" of being far removed from the events themselves. I frankly took very little interest in 9/11 until after I was exposed to the conspiracy theories. It was just something terrible that happened in another country.

This personal detachment allows me to avoid getting overly emotional about things - most of my emotion tends to be disbelief that people can be so stupid, rather than outrage relating to the event itself.

Having said that, the repeated exposure to some of the more explicity details of these events have exposed me fairly thoroughly to the personal horror and tragedy of the event.

-Gumboot

[MG1962]

In general I have not had major issues with outright anger. As with Gumboot I am also pretty remote from what occurred. What I do struggle with is the emtion. Staying on top of this CT crap takes a lot of research. Seeing images of that poor lass stunned and disorientated in the gap of the building. The fellow who tried to climb down and slipped.

I have always had a deep belief in the human spirit and the spirit of humanity, so I feel it as a slap in the face when I hear of governments supposed role in events that day. CTers have so little regard for people, they honestly believe that they could be capable of actions that would make even Adolf Hitler blush. Not 19 brainwashed fantatics from a distant land, but litterly thousands of people prepared to engineer the deaths of their own kind

[T.A.M.]

Quite often we don't :(

The technique I use when I see something so insanely stupid it pisses me of is:
a) Type a reply
b) Don't hit "Post Reply"
c) Do something else for 5 minutes
d) Cool down, re-type reply
e) Reply :)

Works like a charm.

I agree, and often use something very similar. The first reply often wreaks of emotion, anger, and profanity. That one I erase.

TAM:)

[The Silver Shadow]

For me, 9/11 happened during one of the best times of my life. I was at leadership camp in the 10th grade, getting to know my high school peers (and met my first girlfriend there a few days later), far away and detached from TV and internet. I didn't know about the conspiracies until last year, and I kept watching it and said to myself "we have to bring these criminals to justice". I stumbled upon Screw Loose Change later on, and that pretty much erased my doubts about this. The reason it did this is because I knew nothing about the producers of this film, I thought it was a well-researched documentary, and my mind back then was weaker.

I also did my own research, including looking through real journal articles (I have access to databases because I'm a university student). I'm 100% certain that these conspiracy theories are bunk.

[Miragememories]

For me personally I have the "advantage" of being far removed from the events themselves. I frankly took very little interest in 9/11 until after I was exposed to the conspiracy theories. It was just something terrible that happened in another country.

This personal detachment allows me to avoid getting overly emotional about things - most of my emotion tends to be disbelief that people can be so stupid, rather than outrage relating to the event itself.

Having said that, the repeated exposure to some of the more explicity details of these events have exposed me fairly thoroughly to the personal horror and tragedy of the event.

-Gumboot

You are certainly far removed..and it certainly shows!

MM

[Miragememories]

I agree, and often use something very similar. The first reply often wreaks of emotion, anger, and profanity. That one I erase.

TAM:)

I actually like you T.A.M..

I understand your need to hide from the truth but it's really better to face reality.

MM

[T.A.M.]

I actually like you T.A.M..

I understand your need to hide from the truth but it's really better to face reality.

MM

1st reply:

You lame, obnoxious piece of S*&T. How dare you insinuate that i am a F&*King coward who is afraid of the truth. The truth, you can't handle the F*(King truth.


2nd reply:

you are wrong.

TAM:)

[A W Smith]

1st reply:

You lame, obnoxious piece of S*&T. How dare you insinuate that i am a F&*King coward who is afraid of the truth. The truth, you can't handle the F*(King truth.


2nd reply:

you are wrong.

TAM:)
you left out. mm=TROLL

[GwionX]

1st reply:

You lame, obnoxious piece of S*&T. How dare you insinuate that i am a F&*King coward who is afraid of the truth. The truth, you can't handle the F*(King truth.


2nd reply:

you are wrong.

TAM:)

BWAHAH! Classic example

[PhantomWolf]

I find that laughter is the best medicene, then rolling eyes, then feeling pity for those that are so tied up in their own paranoia that they can't see past their own delusions. If all else fails, walk away from the computer, or load up a SW game and beat the heck out of something with a lightsaber.

[Foolmewunz]

BWAHAH! Classic example

Ditto. T.A.M. is subtle, sometimes, but has a very sardonic sense of humor. Unfortunately it went right over the white-hooded head of the recipient.

[cgallaga]

Than you everyone, I'm feeling a bit better now. :) Finished screw loose last night, and while it is a bit acerbic, it is also quite on the money. I did offer some links and gentle guidance to my brother, will see where he ends up.

[Foolmewunz]

I actually like you T.A.M..

I understand your need to hide from the truth but it's really better to face reality.

MM

Says an anonymous web surfer who wouldn't know reality if the reality wagon was playing the "Hey we're the reality wagon" tune in his driveway offering realitysicles at 50% off.

MM, do you have to jump into every adult conversation? Children should be seen and not heard. I'm sure mommy told you that, already.

[Quad4_72]

Most of my dealings with twoofers have now gone from me trying to post rational thought to mainly insults. I really just don't have the will for it anymore. I am sick of everyone arguing over the dumbest BS you can imagine. People trying to figure out who's using a sock, why they get banned, calling each other cowards blah blah blah. It gets really old. I remember the most annoying thread ever made to me was the one about reinstating Pdohs account here. WHO THE F*&C CARES. Seriously this crap is ridiculous.

[Quad4_72]

Oh but to answer your question I used to not use anger in my posts but now I really could care less. If you look at my posts on the unmonitered forum at SLC, my posts are VERY profane these days. I try to tone it down here though.

[Foolmewunz]

Chris,
Glad to hear you've wrapped you arms, figuratively, around the situation. I don't know how I'd react if my brother or a close friend began spouting this stuff. Probably much the same way as you did.

(Sorry for the digression. It's one of those "can't tell the players without a scorecard" situations. MirageMemories is a Canadian Truther who seems to follow T.A.M. around (T.A.M. being a Canadian) to post condescending and meaningless digs. He's just annoying, and as you can see, he achieves his goal of getting us riled up.)

[LashL]

Chris,

I would also suggest that you point your brother to the following sites if they have not already been suggested:

Debunking 911 Myths (http://www.debunking911.com)

Gravy's Loose Change Viewer's Guide (http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html)

Best of luck to you. And don't lose heart. While it is true that even intelligent people can be sucked into believing ridiculous conspiracy theories, nearly all of them will come to realize how unfounded and ridiculous they are when presented with facts and evidence.

[OMGturt1es]

Quad, i've wanted to post the same way now for a long while.

i try to keep calm, ratinoal and respectful because i want innocent folk to read opposing argument before they get sucked into this 911 CT crap. while i'm in the US, it's not the denial in 911 CTs that upsets me. i get pissed when those who ought to now better-- avery!-- continue to knowingly lie to others. i get pissed at the general lack of respect 911 CTers show when "arguing" their cases. i get pissed at the blatent double standards 911 CTers illustrate when dealing with "evidence".

[ConspiRaider]

I agree, and often use something very similar. The first reply often wreaks of emotion, anger, and profanity. That one I erase.

TAM:)
That's good bedside manner, Doc.

As for me: Sometimes I'll kick 'em in the teeth with the first post, and let it ride.

In the second post, I'll offer to call the dentist.

[twinstead]

i get pissed at the blatent double standards 911 CTers illustrate when dealing with "evidence".

This is the single most irritating thing abut CT's, IMO. They refuse to apply the same scrutiny to their information sources as they do to the 'official story'.

[Mobyseven]

The Kübler-Ross model applies to many things, not just death. Concerning the twoofers, it might go something like this:
1. Denial - They're not really serious about these theories, are they?
2. Anger - Ye Gods! What [rule8]ing idiots!!
3. Bargaining - Well, if I present the facts, perhaps they will see the error of their ways.
4. Depression - *SIGH* Don't they ever listen to reason? I don't see the point; it's like talking to a wall dressed in a black t-shirt.
5. Acceptance - Well, there's some utter nutters out there. Always have been; this is just a different flavor. But I can still speak for the benefit of some confused fence-sitters who might come through.

This is truer than many people realise, however in the case of truthers it is quite difficult to avoid slipping back into number two every so often...

You also find yourself being accused for ridiculous things at every turn.

Sometimes I think the truthers think that Gravy brought the towers down...

[LashL]

<snip>Sometimes I think the truthers think that Gravy brought the towers down...

Reading comprehension CT style:

OMG - the JREFers admitted that Gravy brought down the towers!!!!one111eleventy1

/reading comprehension CT style

:D

[T.A.M.]

That's good bedside manner, Doc.

As for me: Sometimes I'll kick 'em in the teeth with the first post, and let it ride.

In the second post, I'll offer to call the dentist.

as long as you dont call me;)

TAM:)

[Quad4_72]

Quad, i've wanted to post the same way now for a long while.


Well if you DO ever want to vent, there are no rules over at SLC and there are plenty of scumbag CFs to go off on.:)

[jaydeehess]

I was posting on another forum in 2001 and having at it concerning Apollo Hoax, UFO's and politics. I was absolutely floored when someone first posted about it being a giant conspiracy. That was first that the towers were set with explosives, then the Pentagon was hit by a missile, my shock continued later when the no-planers showed up.

I have looked at the 'evidence' that the 'truth movement' puts forth and found wanting at every step.

MM is Canadian? As another Canuck I am shamed by even this slim association with him.
I certainly find a few other Canadians on this forum to be rational beings at least.

I try real hard not to post my exact, colloquial, assessment of many 'truther' posters. I have used techniques similar to what some above have described. I often create a post then edit it before submitting or even post it only to immediately edit out nasty bits.(anyone reading one of these before the edit is submitted would see them)

I have simply lost patience with some. JDX for instance who has made it abundantly obvious that he is not actually interested in doing all he can to determine the 'TRUTH' and who simply basks in the reverence of his coterie. I pity others such as Christophera. My true anger is reserved for people such as Fetzer, Reynolds and Wood who's ravings are so insane yet who have positions from which they can look authorative to uninformed individuals.

[twinstead]

My true anger is reserved for people such as Fetzer, Reynolds and Wood who's ravings are so insane yet who have positions from which they can look authorative to uninformed individuals.

Cointelpro

[a_unique_person]

For me personally I have the "advantage" of being far removed from the events themselves. I frankly took very little interest in 9/11 until after I was exposed to the conspiracy theories. It was just something terrible that happened in another country.

This personal detachment allows me to avoid getting overly emotional about things - most of my emotion tends to be disbelief that people can be so stupid, rather than outrage relating to the event itself.

Having said that, the repeated exposure to some of the more explicity details of these events have exposed me fairly thoroughly to the personal horror and tragedy of the event.

-Gumboot

It's a bit the same for me. I live in Australia, and the actual number killed was not that different to the people killed in various disasters around the world we hear about. The {evil} genius of Bin Laden was what made this event so different. Here was a spectacular event being played out live on TV. The twin towers, one hit first, so the media would be watching, then the next tower hit with all the cameras focused on the strike.

The truthers are what appear to me to be a peculiarly American phenomenon. All countries have such nuts, but the USA seems to have the population size and facilities available to bring such nutters to a critical mass where they can take on a life of their own that is bigger than nutters in other countries could hope to achieve. You just have to look at their website and the pitiful history of their ideas presented here to pretty quickly come to the conclusion it is all based on evidence so flimsy it makes a house of cards look solid.

This critical mass, however, appears to be able to convince people that a basically insane idea could be true because they appear to have a legitimacy that is beyond what they really warrant.

[Mobyseven]

The truthers are what appear to me to be a peculiarly American phenomenon.

Now to be fair we have some nuts here in Australia too. Just nowhere near as "active" as in America (protests and the like).

I never did hear about any conspiracy theories relating to the Bali Bombings, but there is at least one around regarding Martin Bryant and the Port Arthur Massacre.

[The Doc]

Now to be fair we have some nuts here in Australia too. Just nowhere near as "active" as in America (protests and the like).

I never did hear about any conspiracy theories relating to the Bali Bombings, but there is at least one around regarding Martin Bryant and the Port Arthur Massacre.

I heard one about the Bali bombing a while back.

Something about "mini-nukes"... I'll try and find it.

ETA:
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1715.cfm

ETA II:
Found a thread from this forum :p
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=62787

Also
http://www.vialls.com/nuke/bali_nuke.htm

[a_unique_person]

Now to be fair we have some nuts here in Australia too. Just nowhere near as "active" as in America (protests and the like).

I never did hear about any conspiracy theories relating to the Bali Bombings, but there is at least one around regarding Martin Bryant and the Port Arthur Massacre.

That's what I said, the USA allows them to reach a critical mass similar nutters in Australia can't reach. It has a bigger population, so it has more nutters, and has the infrastructure in place to enable them to be better organised and appear to be more than what they are.

[Dave Rogers]

Right now I can do nothing other than think about bitch slapping my brother.


Chris,

You could try what I did in a similar situation. I composed and e-mailed my brother a spoof CT article in which I "proved" that I was a major player in the 9/11 attacks. I'm not sure whether it changed his opinions, but it seemed to engage his skeptical faculties rather more than previously.

Dave

[barium]

There are truthers all over the world, but here (in Sweden) the movement is more about swallowing as much CT as possible and regurgitate it in a big confused mess on forums. Also, most theories that people believe in are of american origin.

Edit: Oh, and the CT:ers pisses me off a lot, but I learned how to control my anger a long time ago when I first encountered creationists.