Religious indoctrination dressed up as social welfare

[thaiboxerken]

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/02/09/Columns/Religious_indoctrinat.shtml


This message is to anyone who thinks that the separation of church and state is a vital component of American liberty: Wake up and start hollering. Our president is conducting a full frontal assault on this vital right, and few beyond a handful of civil liberties groups are paying any mind.

[shanek]

It should also be these religious organizations fighting this as well, since this will mean the government will have the means of control over their own organization. (Or do they really think this money will come with no strings attached?) And sure, they might like it now when a guy they agree with is in office, but what about when someone who disagrees with them gets elected?

It's just a bad idea all around.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
[url]This message is to anyone who thinks that the separation of church and state is a vital component of American liberty: Wake up and start hollering.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

I'll admit, the are walking a thin line. Now, the faith based initiatives executive order specifically says that funds cannot be used for sectarian worship.

I am waiting to see how this pans out. If it sucks, we can scrap it. But at least we are trying new things to combat inner city hopelessness.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/02/09/Columns/Religious_indoctrinat.shtml


This message is to anyone who thinks that the separation of church and state is a vital component of American liberty: Wake up and start hollering. Our president is conducting a full frontal assault on this vital right, and few beyond a handful of civil liberties groups are paying any mind.

Where is the United States Constitution is "Separation of Church and State"?

JK

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Where is the United States Constitution is "Separation of Church and State"?

JK

Its not. Its a concept, not a quote.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by corplinx


Its not. Its a concept, not a quote.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Yep, the constitution gives the message that government should butt out of religion.

Ken gets the atheist gold star for the day!

I bet he searched for religious keywords to find this, or got it sent to him from one of the probably two-dozen atheist mailing lists he is on. :D


----
Our president is conducting a full frontal assault on this vital right, and few beyond a handful of civil liberties groups are paying any mind.
----


Maybe that means that not many people see it your way. Youd, of course, like to see many people see it your way.

In other words, through your belief system you see it as "religious indoctrination", etc. But, you are in the MINORITY with that view apparently.

[shanek]

The phrase "Separation of Church and State" was first coined by Thomas Jefferson in reference to the First Amendment. He used the phrase in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. It was the religious people as much as the deists and skeptics that wanted this separation, because they had seen first hand the disaster when government becomes involved in religion.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


Yep, the constitution gives the message that government should butt out of religion.

I agree and that is why children at school should be freely able to express their religious beliefs guaranteed by the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution. Government should stay out of it.

JK

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


I agree and that is why children at school should be freely able to express their religious beliefs guaranteed by the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution. Government should stay out of it.

JK

I agree, government employees should not be indoctrinating children into prayers at school. But that's not really what this thread is about.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


I agree, government employees should not be indoctrinating children into prayers at school. But that's not really what this thread is about.

It isn't possible for teachers to "indoctrinate" any children with religion. The teachers talk about it and the children decide for themselves whether or not they agree. Are you against academic freedom now too?

American universities are so against academic freedom now that they don't even let conservatives teach there. I think religious discussions there could balance the 1/2 an education our children are receiving in schools now.

JK

[thaiboxerken]

It isn't possible for teachers to "indoctrinate" any children with religion. The teachers talk about it and the children decide for themselves whether or not they agree. Are you against academic freedom now too?

Children are very impressionable. If it's ok for teachers to try and convert children to their religion at a public school, do you hold that same freedom to a teacher teaching kids the powers of witchcraft, the occult and the benefits of casual sex? Religion is not a academic process, in fact, religion is the bane to gathering knowledge. Religion should not be taught in public schools, whether on or off the curriculum.

Maybe you are just a horrible parent and realize that you need help to get your kids to accept your religious beliefs.




American universities are so against academic freedom now that they don't even let conservatives teach there.

Yes, because conservatives often retard the learning process.


I think religious discussions there could balance the 1/2 an education our children are receiving in schools now.
JK [/QUOTE]

LOL. Religion would only hurt the education system of a public school where people of many different religions and cultures exist. Are you ready to let a teacher try and convert your kids to Satanism?

[American]

It's about willpower; they're preying on the weak.

A "true Christian" will give that charity to anyone, even someone who comes across as hostile. In reality, I'm sure they make a feable effort to do so, then they practically give up on anyone who doesn't convert, deciding they've closed themselves to God's love, etc. Guilt tactics.

They may be sincere, but the outcome is effectively guilt tactics. And if it works on only a few people, they're just as happy to do it. "Mission accomplished"...

[corplinx]

I don't know about you guys, but around my town there are many churches who run soup/meal kitchens and such on their own tab who do _zero_ evangelism. Line up, get your meal, see you tomorrow. I'm all for guys like these getting federal dollars as long as the groups account for every nickel.

On the other hand, you have urban outreach programs for addicts and such that give people (most of whom probably a xian background) a message of hope and try to help them with their addictions and getting their life back on track.

I don't think supporting these groups, which are very successful, constitutes establishment of religion. Mind you, this sort of thing _has_ to be closely watched and the accounted for. I think its at least worth a shot.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
It isn't possible for teachers to "indoctrinate" any children with religion. The teachers talk about it and the children decide for themselves whether or not they agree. Are you against academic freedom now too?

That's a naïve view. Especially in the government school system, the emphasis is on the teacher as an authority, and on blindly believing whatever the authority tells you to. Not only is free thinking not encouraged, it is actively scolded.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by corplinx
I don't know about you guys, but around my town there are many churches who run soup/meal kitchens and such on their own tab who do _zero_ evangelism. Line up, get your meal, see you tomorrow. I'm all for guys like these getting federal dollars as long as the groups account for every nickel.

These church organizations can already get government funding, as long as they keep their charity secular. Bush's new plan let's these churches discriminate based on religion though. The church's can make a "pray or starve" type of offer and other such nonsense.


On the other hand, you have urban outreach programs for addicts and such that give people (most of whom probably a xian background) a message of hope and try to help them with their addictions and getting their life back on track.

I don't think supporting these groups, which are very successful, constitutes establishment of religion. Mind you, this sort of thing _has_ to be closely watched and the accounted for. I think its at least worth a shot.

Yes it does. By having the government fund religious organizations, this starts to tear down the seperation between church and state. There are secular programs that work just as well and will not turn people away because of religious differences. Giving money to church is unconstitutional.

[subgenius]

The Framers of the Constitution were brilliant, inspired people. They remembered why people came to this country in the first place: to escape persecution by a religious government.
They were religious people themselves, just the wrong one.
Why is this administration trying to become like the fundamentalist religious regimes like the Taliban?
That's what seperation of church and state is all about.
Those that don't remember history are condemned to repeat it.

[Pyrrho]

It's only a matter of time before the various "faith-based" groups begin fighting among themselves for access to Federal dollars. Those with the best lobbyists and political connections will win. The sad thing is that "faith-based" programs will displace professional organizations that employ competent people. I'd like to get more for my tax dollars than "faith".

[subgenius]

Originally posted by pyrrho2000
It's only a matter of time before the various "faith-based" groups begin fighting among themselves for access to Federal dollars. Those with the best lobbyists and political connections will win. The sad thing is that "faith-based" programs will displace professional organizations that employ competent people. I'd like to get more for my tax dollars than "faith".
Tell me Dubya isn't buying votes.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by subgenius

Tell me Dubya isn't buying votes.

He already has those votes locked.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by corplinx


He already has those votes locked.
No, he's already done things to alienate some of the religious right, and will be forced to make some politial decisions in the future that will piss them off. Money, however, doesn't talk, it screams.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by subgenius

No, he's already done things to alienate some of the religious right, and will be forced to make some politial decisions in the future that will piss them off. Money, however, doesn't talk, it screams.

No, Bush is too smart for that. He won't dare alienate the right. Look how many democrats the right laughed out of office in the last election lol. It is true. All the "gun grab" leftists and a host of others were laughed out of office. This coming election will be even funnier.

I will never forget the briefing on the presidential elections I attended where I predicted that Gore would lose his home state. These political democratic hacks laughed at me for at least an hour. Well, after the election I was laughing at them, because Jedi proved his genius.

JK

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


No, Bush is too smart for that.

LOL.. Hes said Bush is smart! LOL


Well, after the election I was laughing at them, because Jedi proved his genius.

JK

And then he calls himself a genius!