A thought I had

[Nyarlathotep]

I was thinking about this a few days ago. Let's say that I was a very good magician who wanted a million dollars. To get this million dollars I made a paranormal claim of some sort and applied for the prize. Further let's say that I won the million, not by actually possessing any paranormal abilities but by simply being trickier than Randi and/or whoever else was responsible for testing me, they are only human after all. Lastly, let's say I admitted this after the fact (and after the million dollars was in my possession)

My question is, the way the challenge is written, would this be fraud? After all, I would have done whatever it was claimed I could do under whatever conditions were put to me. On the other hand by merely applying for the prize I would be claiming to have powers I don't have.

Any thoughts?

[GroundStrength]

Honestly I fear that this is the only way that the challenge will be won. It would be exceedingly difficult to trick or fool Mr. Randi, but I believe a hell of a site easier than actually having paranormal powers.

[Beleth]

This is precisely why a fellow magician is a better judge of what is and isn't paranormal than, say, a scientist would be.

It's certainly possible that you could win the Challenge "merely" by being trickier than Mr. Randi. But most garden-variety practicioners of the paranormal are not trickier. Even the famous ones (Sylvia, Uri, etc.) are not trickier.

[GroundStrength]

This is precisely why a fellow magician is a better judge of what is and isn't paranormal than, say, a scientist would be.

Yep

[The idea]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
Lastly, let's say I admitted this after the fact (and after the million dollars was in my possession)

You could try admitting it in advance. That wouldn't be fraud.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Beleth
This is precisely why a fellow magician is a better judge of what is and isn't paranormal than, say, a scientist would be.

It's certainly possible that you could win the Challenge "merely" by being trickier than Mr. Randi. But most garden-variety practicioners of the paranormal are not trickier. Even the famous ones (Sylvia, Uri, etc.) are not trickier.

True most "psychics" and such are not trickier than Mr. Randi, but one could also say that (in his day) most boxers were not better boxers than Muhammed Ali, however eventually someone DID beat him.

My point is that no matter how good you are at what you do sooner or later either someone comes along who is better or you make a mistake. I wonder sometimes if someone isn't someday going to claim the million due to that fact rather than any real paranormal talent.

[Beleth]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
My point is that no matter how good you are at what you do sooner or later either someone comes along who is better or you make a mistake.I agree. It is therefore imperative that the JREF realize this, and put controls in place to reduce the risk of this.


I wonder sometimes if someone isn't someday going to claim the million due to that fact rather than any real paranormal talent. I agree with GroundStrength on this one - it is far more likely that any eventual winner of the Challenge will win it through superior trickery than through a demonstration of a genuine paranormal ability.

[Peter Morris]

"My question is, the way the challenge is written, would this be fraud? "

IANAL, but IMHO no.

The conditions of the challenge specify:

"We have no interest in theories or explanations of how the claimed powers might work; if you provide us with such material, it will be ignored and discarded. "

That being said, if you can do what you claim by ANY method, you win the money. It wouldn't even make a difference if Randi caught you during the test, if the agreed test does not specifically rule out that method, you would be entitled to the money.

As an example, suppose you said "My power is that I can let someone freely pick a card, then tell them what card they picked" Randi allows you to take the test,. Duting the test he catches you forcing the card. You can just say "Well, I never said I wouldn't, that's how my power works." And Randi couldn't do a thing about it.

I'm sure that in any such test, Randi would carefully word the agreement so that you agree to let someone freely pic a card without forcing. If you then force the card anyway, then yes it would be fraud.

[uruk]

I don't know if this is relavent,but.

I recently had a discussion with my brother about the challenge,
and it occured to us that if there exsited a person with actual
psychic ability they would not be predisposed to accept the challenge.

First, if they took and won the challenge that would bring them instant noteriety, and scientists wanting to shove a probe in every concievable orafice, the government, wanting to use this person's ability for the security of the country, religious fanatics
wanting to burn them for being a witch (figuratively speaking of course) and all the psychic nuts looking for "guidance".

Secondly, If this person could read minds an predict the future
they would already be incredibly rich by playing the stock market
and other ventures. And if thier ability were made known they would probably be prosecuted for insider trading and soforth
not to mention screw up a "good thing going".

Also, they probably would have comitted suicide long ago
because what excitement and mystery would existance have for you if you knew everything thats going to happen and instantly
knew every little thing about every person you came in contact with?

So it seems that the challenge seems to serve mainly to root out
the charlatans and the deluded.

I don't think the challenge will ever be won.

[uneasy]

Thanks, narly*, for posing a question like this. I've asked questions like this few times because I think these things should be talked about to keep the challenge robust.

I believe the wording of the challenge is clear that it is for paranormal ablities. So admitting it after the fact would be fraud. I'm assuming that if you entered a contract with someone, and then later admitted that what you provided was counterfeit, that would be fraud.

As to uruk, your arguments are interesting. Arguments like those are almost a requirement for people with "paranormal" abilities. Are you sure you don't have the "gift"? :)


* Yeah, I call ancient gods by their nicknames. I'm just that skeptical.

[Floyt]

Well, doesn't uruk have a point though? (I know this has been talked about already, but I thought the subject always died a little to quickly...)

Why WOULD someone who genuinely is in contact with the spirit world, able to project their ethereal body &c., go for the challenge? I would assume such an experience to be humbling more than anything else, and turning it to mere financial advantage contradicts anything I've ever learned about how people react to revelations that shatter their former world-view.
The notoriety that is sure to follow would definitely seem more attractive to a deceiver type.

I admit I am basing this mostly on a couple of my friends who are firm believers of making contact with previous incarnations, ethereal travel and other surprising stuff, and who are so low-key about it and generally just happy to have this "knowledge" and to live by it that it took me several years to even get a hint of what was going on.

cheers
floyt
(ungifted in any para- way whatsoever)

[uruk]

It also occured to me that a person with such abilities might
be mentaly traumatized or at least socialy ostracized.

Imagine growing up and going through life with such frightening
thing as voices and images flashing through your mind. Seeing the future and wathching it happen infront of you. perhaps something very traumatinc and not being able to do anything
to help or change it.

It would atleast be confusing as a child to make sense of the sensory onslaught.

also think about how your interpersonal relationships would be
If you could hear all the mental deterious that passes through
peoples heads. Coming up to a girl (or boy) your interested in or someone who is a friend and hearing what they really thing of you. It would probably make you extremely selfconciouse, or anal.

And how attracted to others would you be if you knew all the dirty little secrets of the people around you?

I think it would be more of a terrible curse than a gift. Which is probably a good thing that we don't posses these abilities.

But of course I'm making ALOT of assumptions and conclusions.
But it's something to think about.

[uneasy]

Originally posted by Floyt
Well, doesn't uruk have a point though? (I know this has been talked about already, but I thought the subject always died a little to quickly...)

No, I don't think so. If anyone doesn't want to take the challenge, good for them. I see no point in people giving reasons why they aren't taking it.

I could ramble on about reasons I don't get my doctorate in philosophy at Harvard or why I don't do a thousand other fantastic things, but what's the point?

If anyone wants the million bucks, put up or shut up.

[uruk]

My point was that the challenge will never ever be won.

It would not appeal to a person who might actually have psychic
abilities. I'm pretty sure they would want to keep it a secret.

The only people who who bother to take the challenge would be
the charlatans who think they can out wit Mr. Randi and his associates, or the truly deluded who think they have a paranormal ability.

Anyhow, I seriously doubt all that paranormal mumbo jumbo
exists. For a notion to have been around for centuries, something
would have reared it's ugly head by now.

[Floyt]

Originally posted by uneasy

No, I don't think so. If anyone doesn't want to take the challenge, good for them. I see no point in people giving reasons why they aren't taking it.

I could ramble on about reasons I don't get my doctorate in philosophy at Harvard or why I don't do a thousand other fantastic things, but what's the point?

If anyone wants the million bucks, put up or shut up.

Well, yes. I'm just saying that these considerations keep me from regarding the fact that the challenge has not been won as an indication that paranormal stuff does not exist. The challenge might at some time produce evidence in favor of such claims, if someone actually passes it, but it's not conclusive to the contrary.

And yes, if someone is busy making bucks with mediumship etc. and then comes up with excuses for not taking the challenge, it's obviously fishy as hell (which I'm reliably informed is remarkably fishy, not to mention sulfurous and full of catholics).

[uruk]

I agree with Floyt.

The fact that noone has won the challenge is not necessisarily an indication that the paranormal stuff doesn't exist. It mearly indicates that frauds and gullable people exsits. Which is a no brainer.

Now does this give amunition to all the wackos out there who believe in paranormal junk? (which I think some people here fear)I don't think so. because you can't say something exists untill you have proof.

But it does provide an important service. If one woo-woo
starts to think critically about the psycic, who refuses to take the challenge, that he is about to hand his life savings over to. Then I think it's done it's true job.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by uruk
I agree with Floyt.

The fact that noone has won the challenge is not necessisarily an indication that the paranormal stuff doesn't exist. It mearly indicates that frauds and gullable people exsits. Which is a no brainer.

Now does this give amunition to all the wackos out there who believe in paranormal junk? (which I think some people here fear)I don't think so. because you can't say something exists untill you have proof.

But it does provide an important service. If one woo-woo
starts to think critically about the psycic, who refuses to take the challenge, that he is about to hand his life savings over to. Then I think it's done it's true job.

I disagree (sort of). The paranormal is such a vague, broad term that I don't think any one thing could once and for all say that "it exists" or "it doesn't exist". Instead ther is eveidence both pro and con. While the fact that the $1,000,000 has never been claimed doesn't disprove the existance of the paranormal in and of itself, it is one more piece of evidence to throw onto the "It doesn't exist side". Likewise if someone DID win it (and wasn't shown to be cheating, as in my original example) it wouldn't prove tht the paranormal DOES exist but it would be a weighty pice of evidence for that side of the debate.

I think the prizes main value, though, lies in education. Sure it's a no brainer that frauds and the like exist, but if I show you that a $100 bill in your wallet is counterfeit I haven't shown that ALL $100 bills are counterfeit or even most of them. I would have made you more aware of counterfeits, though, and made you more wary and hopefully made you a little better to spot a counterfeit on your own.

Like wise the JREF prize makes people a little more leary of fraud and if someone cares to do the research, enables them to better spot fraud on their own. This is a valuable service in my opinion.

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by uruk
I recently had a discussion with my brother about the challenge, and it occured to us that if there exsited a person with actual psychic ability they would not be predisposed to accept the challenge.

<snip snip>

I don't think the challenge will ever be won. Even assuming that you are correct in youre assessment of what it would be like to be psychic, that wouldn't justiy your last statement. There are many paranormal claims other than being psychic, few of which would have the negative impact you describe on a person's life.

The ability to dowse for water. The ability to bend spoons with your mind. The ability to detect colors by touch alone.

These and many other claimed abilities don't seem like they would drive a person to suicide.

[uruk]

The ability to dowse for water. The ability to bend spoons with your mind. The ability to detect colors by touch alone These and many other claimed abilities don't seem like they would drive a person to suicide..

True. I know I was making very broad generalizations and assumptions. Reading minds and seeing the future has more of a provacative psycological implication. The ability to detect colors by
touch is about as traumatic as detecting colors by sight and would probably be a useless ability. Then I would be inclined to go for the challenge.

But ,most celebrities will tell you that noteriety has some major drawbacks. In fact, a few have actually committed suicide because of it. (Freddie Prinze, and that guy from Nirvana for example)

The thought just occured to me that if I had a psycic ability, I would'nt want anyone to know about it and therefore I would not be disposed to take the challenge.

The last statement was a personal opinion. Not necessisarily because of the reasons I gave, but because I really don't believe
that these abilitites exist. The preponderance of evidence seems to lean in that direction.