ODing on homeo sleeping pills

[JoeTheJuggler]

So I've got a juggling show tonight, Friday the 13th. I ordinarily juggle a chainsaw in the act. Usually I don't like to be preachy (my act is mostly schlocky comedy), but I want to exhort my audience about confirmation bias vis a vis juggling a chainsaw on Friday the 13th. If I should happen to maim myself, it'd probably make the news and the superstitious would have it as proof of how unlucky Friday the 13th is.

Then I read the commentary and realized that I should get me a bottle of Calms Forté homeopathic sleeping pills and down them shortly before the stunt. Dern--now there's no time to stop by Walgreens (if they're even carried there).

(By the way, the MOST dangerous thing I'll do today is drive my car to and from the show.)

[Anders W. Bonde]

My only worry is: How does Randi ensure that the homeopathetic pills haven't been tampered with and actually been replaced by a drug that works? I suppose my question can be expanded to: Is there any quality control on homeopathetic remedies? I seem to recall an Australian scandal in this respect a few years ago...

[ksbluesfan]

Be sure to get homeopathic sleeping pills. I have a feeling a whole bottle of Ambien would have an undesired outcome.

;)

[Scott Haley]

Anders W. Bonde has a point. If you don't know this guy enough to know that he's trustworthy, he might hand you a bottle of altered pills. Maybe you the two of you could agree on a trustworthy person to provide the pills.

If it works out, spend the $1000.00 on something fun.

--scott

[zooloo]

Taking the whole bottle would obviously be safe... but take half a pill and it's coma time!

[The Bad Astronomer]

I took 20, I think, at the National Australian Skeptics meeting in Sydney ion November 2004. A bunch of us stood on stage and did it. Peter Barrett Ate a couple during his talk every time he made a joke. It was really funny!

Here's the video, posted on Google video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8736242492948446226&q=australian+skeptic+mass

[JoeTheJuggler]

My only worry is: How does Randi ensure that the homeopathetic pills haven't been tampered with and actually been replaced by a drug that works? I suppose my question can be expanded to: Is there any quality control on homeopathetic remedies? I seem to recall an Australian scandal in this respect a few years ago...

I had the same thought except I assumed he'd have a factory sealed bottle of the remedy. I was worried that they could give him tainted water.

But everyone knows Randi has an unflagging belief in the goodness and integrity of mankind! At heart, he's just a trusting person who sees the world through rose-colored glasses!

Meanwhile, I'm happy to report that I can still credibly claim to be ambidextrous. (I'm not, but I still have both arms.)

My exhortation on confirmation bias on the occasion of juggling a chainsaw on Friday the 13th seemed to be well received.

I'm also rather pleased to report that my local Walgreens does not carry any homeopathic sleeping pills. They've only got the antihistamine kind. I hate to ask, but does anyone know where I can find them?

[rjh01]

I suggest you buy two packets of sleeping pills. One packet you consume a few days before hand just to make sure everything is OK. As mentioned above you do not want to find out during the show that you have taken real sleeping pills dressed up as Calms Forté homoeopathic sleeping pills.

I should not be telling you this. You know you never do anything on stage unless you have already done it heaps of times before hand off stage.

I found a packet of homoeopathic sleeping pills in the Chemist recently. Only they were not labelled as sleeping pills. They were labelled as 'sleeping aids.' In Australia companies must be able to back up any claims you make with evidence.

Reference Trade Practices Act 1974 (http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/3653)

[ShowMe]

Perhaps allowing the challenger to pick the store, enter the store together, purchase the pills, etc. would be one way of insuring the pills aren't tampered with.

[Soapy Sam]

Taking a whole bottle of Hom. pills will merely encourage devotees to tell you how safe they are compared to allopathic drugs.

[rjh01]

If I wanted pills that were 100% safe I would take M&Ms. Now that would make a good advertisement for them. 'No side effects, no effects at all.'

[JoeTheJuggler]

Taking a whole bottle of Hom. pills will merely encourage devotees to tell you how safe they are compared to allopathic drugs.

I think the stunt is intended to educate middle of the road people (who might think that homeopathics are just another kind of herbal medicine). It might encourage them to say, "How could it be safe to eat a whole bottle of sleeping pills?" and hopefully find the answer.

[Lisa Simpson]

I'm also rather pleased to report that my local Walgreens does not carry any homeopathic sleeping pills. They've only got the antihistamine kind. I hate to ask, but does anyone know where I can find them?


Health food stores are a bastion of woo stuff. I bought some homeopathic arnica at a health food store a couple of years ago for an experiment.

[BillyJoe]

Homoeopaths say that the more dilute the more potent.
Therefore, the more pills Randi takes, the less likely he is to fall asleep.

...wait for that to sink in....

So, in order to demonstrate to the public that homoeopathy doesn't work,
Randi should get sleepier and sleepier as he takes more and more pills.

...but wait....

This would demonstrate the homoeopathy does indeed have an effect.



Hmmm.... :D

[JoeTheJuggler]

BillyJoe, that's like the Flying Karamazov Brother's show where they keep attempting to do the impossible, but keep failing because once it's done, they've proven it's possible.

[ReligionStudent]

Health food stores are a bastion of woo stuff. I bought some homeopathic arnica at a health food store a couple of years ago for an experiment.

There was a decent article int he most recent skeptical inquirer, which dealt with some of the health food/organinic woo woo

[ohp]

looking at the web site, Most of the herbal ingredients are listed as being 1X concentration. This is only 1/10. Surely this is a herbal remedy with the quantities described in homeopathic notation.. I thought most homeopathic concentrations were about 100X or more.

http://www.hylands.com/products/calmsforte.php

given that some herbs are toxic, you could poison yourself taking an overdose of these pills.

Please let me be wrong on this one..

[BillyJoe]

You can't overdose on true homoeopathic "remedies", as long as you don't allow yourself to be fooled by herbal remedies masquerading as homoeopathic.

[ohp]

You can't overdose on true homoeopathic "remedies", as long as you don't allow yourself to be fooled by herbal remedies masquerading as homoeopathic.

That's precisely what I'm suggesting, that this "remedy" might be a poor choice for ODing on, for the reason that it may have a high herbal content.

[JPK]

Good afternoon JoeTheJuggler.

Meanwhile, I'm happy to report that I can still credibly claim to be ambidextrous. (I'm not, but I still have both arms.)

I'd cut off my right arm to be ambidextrous. :D
JPK

[brodski]

Taking the whole bottle would obviously be safe... but take half a pill and it's coma time!

Haha, did you hear about the homeopath who forgot to take his remedies?

He died of an overdose... :D

[Mr. Scott]

I had a friend who liked to use and share her homeopatic remedies. IIRC it was tiny pills in tiny clear and blue capsules that had a fancy lid to dsipense them without contaminating the pills by touching them. Most health food stores, like WHOLE FOODS, have them.

The remedy for sleeplessness is caffeine, in keeping with their theory that the water used to dilute what keeps you awake remembers the substance and therefore contains something I guess akin to the antibody for it. It's the water that is the remedy, not the residue of the original substance. Therefore, it should not be backwards take more of the pills. It's the dilutor molecules that matters, not the molecules of the original substance, so more of the dilutor (pills) should, if I understand it correctly, have more of an effect.

[ChristineR]

The remedy in question is not sold at health food stores and it is homeopathic, i.e., it contains no coffee and no herbs that might actually make you sleepy.

In theory you could tamper with it, but as it is just little lactose pills, it would be pretty hard to get a real drug into it without anyone noticing.

Homeopaths will tell you that 50 pills taken at once is just one dose, as it is the energy, not the substance that matters. Furthermore, you are supposed to dissolve the pills under your tongue, which increases the amount of time the energy has to work. If you do not get sleepy you are supposed to dissolve another pill and another until you do get sleepy (which is pretty likely in practice).

So if anyone feels like doing this as a demo, I recommend you dissolve one pill at a time until the entire bottle is gone.

[Dicon]

To assist with the workouts I do in the gym, I'm thinking of taking homeopathic steroids. I hear that the 'roid rage you get from them is really mellow, man.

[EvilSmurf]

The remedy for sleeplessness is caffeine, in keeping with their theory that the water used to dilute what keeps you awake remembers the substance and therefore contains something I guess akin to the antibody for it. It's the water that is the remedy, not the residue of the original substance. Therefore, it should not be backwards take more of the pills. It's the dilutor molecules that matters, not the molecules of the original substance, so more of the dilutor (pills) should, if I understand it correctly, have more of an effect.

So homeopaths claim that caffeine diluted in water is supposed to make you sleepy? I dispute this notion:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1536/hotcoffeelk7.jpg

The prosecution rests.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I'd cut off my right arm to be ambidextrous. :D


What kind of sinister joke is that? I find it wholly disarming!

Maybe it was just an off-hand remark.

[JoeTheJuggler]

looking at the web site, Most of the herbal ingredients are listed as being 1X concentration. This is only 1/10. Surely this is a herbal remedy with the quantities described in homeopathic notation.. I thought most homeopathic concentrations were about 100X or more.

http://www.hylands.com/products/calmsforte.php

given that some herbs are toxic, you could poison yourself taking an overdose of these pills.

Please let me be wrong on this one..

Depends on what the ingredient is that they start with. Yes 1X is just a 10% solution (or mixture, in the case of these dry things).
Here's the recipe from the page cited above with some interspersed comments:
Passiflora 1X Triple Strength - for restless or wakeful sleep from exhaustion
That's the passion flower--presumably dried and ground leaves, or stems or flower parts(?).

Avena Sativa 1X Double Strength - for stress, nervousness or nervous headache
That's just oats--the grain, or leaves, or stems or whatever? (I'd bet on the grain because they'd be easier for the manufacturer to buy.)

Humulus Lupulus 1X Double Strength - for drowsiness with incomplete sleep
That's a hop--like they use for making beer.

Chamomilla 2X (Chamomile) - for nervous irritabilityI'm guessing it's the flower.


And the following biochemic phosphates for enhancing cellular function:
Calcarea Phosphorica 3X HPUS, Ferrum Phosphoricum 3X HPUS, Kali Phosphoricum 3X HPUS, Natrum Phosphoricum 3X HPUS, Magnesia Phosphoricum 3X HPUS


Most of these don't make sense as a homeopathic remedy, since their effects in actual quantities are also meant to be sleep inducing. (Which supports ohp's contention that this is just a weak herbal.)

The minerals are at 1:1000 so I wouldn't worry about them. Also, even larger quantities of oats, hops and chamomile tea aren't actually sedatives. I don't know about passion flower--except they're pretty.

And don't forget, these are things that in quantity (like a bowl of oatmeal) are MUCH larger than a capsule. So a 10% oat mixture in a 1 gram capsule---that means a bottle of 50 capsules is equal to what, a tablespoon of oatmeal?

Does anyone know if the "double strength" and such listed here means anything?

[JoeTheJuggler]

To assist with the workouts I do in the gym, I'm thinking of taking homeopathic steroids. I hear that the 'roid rage you get from them is really mellow, man.

Not to mention the side-benefit that homeopathic steroids help clear up acne. They do cause muscle atrophy, though.

[ChristineR]

Hmm, I guess I was wrong. Calms Forte appears to be a herbal remedy which might cause some sleepiness. It seems like there was a homeopathic sleeping pill floating around the major chain drugstores. Maybe it was Nyquil.

Isn't chamomile actually a sedative?

This trend is getting very annoying. You'd think the homeopaths would be up in arms about people putting real drugs in their homeopathic medicine. I think the vast majority of people don't know what homeopathy is.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Calms Forte appears to be a herbal remedy which might cause some sleepiness.

Not much of a chance. These are still very small amounts of ingredients with very dubious effectiveness.
It seems like there was a homeopathic sleeping pill floating around the major chain drugstores. Maybe it was Nyquil.

Nyquil is not homeopathic. It is an OTC cold medicine with various formulas of antihistimines (which can be sleep inducing), decongestants, and pain/fever meds.


Isn't chamomile actually a sedative?


No. Chamomile is a flower. The tea brewed from it is reported by herbalists to be able to cure or help relieve almost any symptom:

"Internally for spasm or inflammatory conditions of the gastrointestinal tract, peptic ulcer, flatulent or nervous dyspepsia, travel sickness, nasal catarrh, restlessness, mild sleep disorders. Specifically indicated in gastrointestinal disturbance with associated nervous irritability in children."

I've also seen claims for effectiveness with morning sickness.

And that's not counting topical applications.

This is from chemistry.org:

Although there is considerable anecdotal evidence of chamomile’s beneficial effects, there is not yet much scientific data to support many of its uses. And few studies take on the larger question, “How does the drinking of chamomile tea affect human biology overall?” This turns out to be a difficult question to answer. Chamomile may contain hundreds of components, only some of which have been studied individually. For instance, the substance chamazulene has been studied for its anti-inflammatory and antioxidant effects on cells. Studies on two flavonoid compounds, apigenin and chrysin, explored possible mechanisms for the sedating effect the substance has on rats. Reference. (http://www.chemistry.org/portal/a/c/s/1/feature_ent.html?id=c373e902151a70c98f6a17245d8301 00)

I drink chamomile tea myself. It certainly is not a sedative (by sedative, I mean that class of drugs which depress the CNS). It might promote sleep just a little bit--but I think that's mostly if you drink it as an alternative to caffeinated teas in the evening. Even the herbalists say it's a "mild sedative" at full strength. I doubt a tiny capsule of 1:10 dilution of it will do anything. You wouldn't expect a teaspoon of chamomile tea to put you out, would you?

[ChristineR]

Randy is proposing taking a whole bottle. It isn't clear how this 10% solution of chamomile compares to chamomile tea.

By "Nyquil" I didn't mean the stuff which has contains powerful drugs in various formulations over the years. I meant "Nyquil all natural," and that may not be its proper name anyhow. I'm not finding any info on the ingredients of Nyquil All Natural. It may not be made any longer.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Randy is proposing taking a whole bottle. It isn't clear how this 10% solution of chamomile compares to chamomile tea.

I've had 4 cups of the tea this evening (I actually like the taste). I can't imagine 50 capsules each weighing maybe a gram with a 1:10 mixture of chamomile flowers being significantly more potent than 4 cups (using 4 new tea bags) of chamomile.

Still, I agree--this doesn't sound like a homeopathic remedy as much as it is a very weak herbal.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Now here's a homeopathic sleeping pill: http://www.mothernature.com/shop/detail.cfm/sku/86534

Every ingredient diluted well beyond Avogadro's Number. (Still, I don't get why they'd have caffeine and valerian--when in real quantities, these things have opposite effects.)

[MortFurd]

Now here's a homeopathic sleeping pill: http://www.mothernature.com/shop/detail.cfm/sku/86534

Every ingredient diluted well beyond Avogadro's Number. (Still, I don't get why they'd have caffeine and valerian--when in real quantities, these things have opposite effects.)

Because that's the way homeopathy is supposed to work - at least according to Hahnemann, the guy who invented it.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy) has a fairly decent explanation of the beliefs of homeopaths.

[Big Al]

Seeing all the talk about homeopathic steroids, wouldn't bodybuilders be looking to use homeopathic oestrogen (UK sp.)?

And if one wants to take similia similibus curantur to its limit, shouldn't it logically be, "You're feeling ill, so you need something that doesn't make you feel ill, like nothing. Then you dilute that over and over again until there's only water left."

Hmm... terminally diluted nothing. Sounds pretty much like real homeopathy. So perhaps there is some logic in it after all...

Excuse me, I need to go and lie down in a darkened room somewhere.

[BillyJoe]

Because that's the way homeopathy is supposed to work - at least according to Hahnemann, the guy who invented it.


You missed his point - valerian is a calmative, caffeine is a stimulant. Why are they together in the same preparation?

[BillyJoe]

Homeopaths will tell you that 50 pills taken at once is just one dose, as it is the energy, not the substance that matters. Furthermore, you are supposed to dissolve the pills under your tongue, which increases the amount of time the energy has to work. If you do not get sleepy you are supposed to dissolve another pill and another until you do get sleepy (which is pretty likely in practice).

Yeah, my conundrum was not really a conundrum.

But you have to wonder how this stuff is supposed to work in the body - mixed up with diluting saliva, gastric juices, blood, and tissue fluid, and then somehow interacting with tissue receptors to produce its affect. And which tissue receptors? There are no "keys" on the water molecule to fit the "lock" on the receptor sites.

Oh, I see, it just ENERGIZES them. :rolleyes:

[brodski]

Seeing all the talk about homeopathic steroids, wouldn't bodybuilders be looking to use homeopathic oestrogen (UK sp.)?

And if one wants to take similia similibus curantur to its limit, shouldn't it logically be, "You're feeling ill, so you need something that doesn't make you feel ill, like nothing. Then you dilute that over and over again until there's only water left."

Hmm... terminally diluted nothing. Sounds pretty much like real homeopathy. So perhaps there is some logic in it after all...

Excuse me, I need to go and lie down in a darkened room somewhere.

If homeopathy was logically valid, the cure for a gunshot wound would be to shoot the patient again, but with a lower calibre weapon.
The “succession” is built into the firing mechanism.

For some reason the homeopaths and their cheerleaders who I have suggested this too object to the idea. ;)

[Mashuna]

If homeopathy was logically valid, the cure for a gunshot wound would be to shoot the patient again, but with a lower calibre weapon.
The “succession” is built into the firing mechanism.

For some reason the homeopaths and their cheerleaders who I have suggested this too object to the idea. ;)

This seems a logical idea, but I thought it would be more fun just to randomly take your quote out of context (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2525259#post2525259) instead :D

[JoeTheJuggler]

Because that's the way homeopathy is supposed to work - at least according to Hahnemann, the guy who invented it.


Not really--the symptoms the actual substance causes in healthy people are what the homeopathic preparation of that same substance should alleviate.

Not so with regular herbal remedies.

So valerian, hops, oats and chamomile (see Calms Forte ingredients) make sense in an herbal remedy to promote sleep. In a homeopathic remedy they should be used to make you more alert.

[Stupendous Man]

Homoeopaths say that the more dilute the more potent.
Therefore, the more pills Randi takes, the less likely he is to fall asleep.

...wait for that to sink in....

So, in order to demonstrate to the public that homoeopathy doesn't work,
Randi should get sleepier and sleepier as he takes more and more pills.

...but wait....

This would demonstrate the homoeopathy does indeed have an effect.



Hmmm.... :D

Well then, if taking less is more effective, then taking none at all would be overdosing! We really should be taking them to prevent sleeping constantly.

[BillyJoe]

Well then, if taking less is more effective, then taking none at all would be overdosing! We really should be taking them to prevent sleeping constantly.


No. The effect of the homoeopathic remedy that you are not taking is being cancelled out by the equal and opposite homoeopathic remedy that you are not taking.

[MortFurd]

You missed his point - valerian is a calmative, caffeine is a stimulant. Why are they together in the same preparation?

I didn't realize that valerian is a calmative.

[JoeTheJuggler]

No. The effect of the homoeopathic remedy that you are not taking is being cancelled out by the equal and opposite homoeopathic remedy that you are not taking.

I must be sleepy now because that actually makes sense to me!

[BillyJoe]

Did it really

[jmercer]

Just keep in mind that you can OD on anything - up to and including water (http://www.healthcentral.com/peoplespharmacy/408/61092.html). Just thought I'd point that out - it's not the homeopathic aspect of the pills that I'd be concerned about. :)

[BillyJoe]

Yep. Happened here on a radio program. The last contestant left standing won the prize. The runner up died on he way home.

[wahrheit]

Haha, did you hear about the homeopath who forgot to take his remedies?

He died of an overdose...

:newlol :newlol :newlol

[BillyJoe]

I see you don't agree with my theory. :(
But I see you have a DA quote. :)

[JoeTheJuggler]

But I see you have a DA quote. :)

Let's see, one Douglas Adams quote mixed into a thread with ten other posts would be considered a 1X preparation. You mix up all those words, then take a string of words out equal to the length of the quote and mix it with another 10 posts. (2X) Repeat it until you're up to say 42X, and what's left?

[BillyJoe]

...and if there are two D.A. quotes?

[JoeTheJuggler]

...and if there are two D.A. quotes?

Oh that's easy--you get a trilogy.