So, I'm considering Unitarianism.

[Upchurch]

I'm getting married in just over three months and, in scouting out places to hold the ceremony, my fiancee and I came across the Unitarian Church.

My fiancee comes from a mixed Catholic/Lutheran background mingled with being a strong personality based on free thought. The end result is that she is what I would call independently religious. That is to say, religious while lacking doctrine or dogma.

I grew up going to a Deciples of Christ church in small college town. Somewhere in the middle of high school I decided I wanted to be a scientist and adopted a semi-militant hard atheism. (Think AtheistWorld without being nearly as confrontational.) During college, I backed off of from the extreme and settled into an easy-going soft or philosophical atheism. In other words, I start with the assumption of a completely naturalistic world but aware of the possibility that there might be something that breaks that assumption and willing to acknowledge it, should it present itself.

So, back to my story, we found the Unitarian Church, a mix of gothic and modern in design, which appeals to my architect fiancee a great deal. In order to check out the interior, we went to a service. Once you got past the ceremony, the singing, and the read-alongs, you get to the "sermon". I put "sermon" in quotes because it was really more like a philosophy lecture or paper presentation. All of the referenced sources of material were relatively new (within the last 150 years or so) and it was extremely interesting.

We've been back several times, off and on, it's been just as interesting each time. They are in the process of hiring a new minister and members of the congregation having been running the service. I'm amazed at how smart these folks are in a wide range of areas. I'm trying to figure out a way to sneak a notebook in without being too obvious about it.

I picked up a little pamphlet entitled "Unitarianism As A Way Of Faith" by Earl K. Holt III. Here is an excerpt:A CHURCH IS NOT A CREED. However, most people understand it that way, so it is sometimes difficult to explain the concept of a creedless church, but that is what we are. We have no creed. Unitarians are people to whom the questions religion asks are more important than common adherence to any one set of responses or answers to those questions. Unitarians are people who believe in the church, that is, in the importance of religious community, but do not define that community by doctrinal conformity. Thomas Jefferson once reffered to himself as "a Unitarian by myself," but most of us feel that religion includes a social as well as a personal dimension. A creedless church encourages the continuing religious growth of its members, young and old. It encourages appreciation of perspectives which differ from our own. It encourages taking personal responsibility for our beliefs and values - and accepting the consequences of the actions which follow from them.(pardon any typos that I may have introduced in copying the quote)

The community aspect appeals to my fiancee and the philosophy talks (a.k.a. "sermons") appeals to me. So, we considering joining up. (It doesn't hurt that members get a discount on the wedding ceremony fees, either.) My question is, does anyone know anything about Unitarianism that might make me/us reconcider joining?

[Yahweh]

Congratulations, UpChurch! I see the old ball-n-chain--d'oh!--fiancee and you have decided get married. Super Cool! :)

I dont know much about Unitararianism. Although it is almost a completely non-dogmatic sect of monotheism, dont let the church brainwash you into having crazy beliefs such as intelligent design and devine intervention, otherwise I say the church as a philosophical place is very nice. If the church starts getting a little "culty", get out (and steal whatever you can :D).

Unrelated, but there are 4 churches within walking distance of my house, and about 25 others within a 30 minute driving radius from my house. Why the need for so many churches?

[Sindai]

Where do you live? That's certainly about average for us here in the bible belt.

[Crossbow]

Upchurch:

I was married by a Unitarian minister who did not have any problem with my lack of religious beliefs.

Unitarians certainly do have eloquent writings and egalitarian ideals. I went to several Unitarian services as well and they were quite enlightening regarding other faiths and ideas, and most of the people at the services were friendly and sociable.

For what it is worth, my limited experience showed me that when it came right down to it, the services were more of a social gathering and that very few actually tried to hold themselves to the ideals as they promised to do.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Yahweh
Congratulations, UpChurch! I see the old ball-n-chain--d'oh!--fiancee and you have decided get married. Super Cool! :)Thanks. as excited as we are, we're both ready for it to be over with. Our Plan B (Las Vegas) looks more and more attractive as the date approaches.
I dont know much about Unitararianism. Although it is almost a completely non-dogmatic sect of monotheism, dont let the church brainwash you into having crazy beliefs such as intelligent design and devine intervention, otherwise I say the church as a philosophical place is very nice. If the church starts getting a little "culty", get out (and steal whatever you can :D).The only time I really get a sense of monotheism is during the "churchy" portion of the service: in the songs and prayers, etc where "God" is referenced, but it seems more like a carry over from Unitarianism's Christian roots more than any genuine adherence to monotheism. This become more evident to me during the sermons when "God" seems more like a reference tool meaning the universe or nature. In other words, "God" in Unitarianism seems to be an un-personified generalized concept rather than the traditional anthropomorphic father figure from Christianity.

Like I said, I gotta find a way to take notes. I think there are some great R&P thread topic starters to be had there.

Funny you should mention intelligent design, a couple of weeks ago, one of the hymns (which normally boar me to tears) actually referenced evolution as being true! It took me pleasently by surprise.

[BillyTK]

Strange co-incidence; architecture was the deciding factor for my (then) fiancee in her marriage venue decision making as well...

I've got absolutely no idea about Unitarianism though, but good luck to you and the (prospective) missus with getting hitched!*

*Translations on request

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Crossbow
Unitarians certainly do have eloquent writings and egalitarian ideals. I went to several Unitarian services as well and they were quite enlightening regarding other faiths and ideas, and most of the people at the services were friendly and sociable. That's been our experience as well. The minister we talked to suggested a lot of things for ceremony including a wide range of secular quotes (as opposed to Biblical readings) and even a Native American prayer.

As for friendly and sociable, we went this previous Sunday and got a treat. The lady giving the sermon took the opportunity to give a rather scathing critique (although presented in a sociable way) of the previous minister's administration as well as President Bush's. My fiancee and I just looked at each other and thought "whoa". It was by far more entertaining than anything I got from church growing up.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I'm getting married in just over three months and, in scouting out places to hold the ceremony, my fiancee and I came across the Unitarian Church.

Congratulations on your upcoming wedding!!

I have been in contact with some local UU's where I live. I have been considering going to one of their services. I like so much about it. I like the fact that you can be a liberal Christian, pagan, buddhist, atheist or agnostic and attend their fellowships.

They don't have a creed or rules or forumlas. To me, it seems more like a club.

I like it that they don't have a paid minister or clergy. They don't collect tithes!!! To become a voting member you have to pay a fee, but I think that's fine.

I like the fact that after the "sermon" you can sit and debate or discuss it with everyone..including the person who gave it.

The only negative info I have read is from fundamental Christians. Naturally, to them, anyone who is UU is a heretic.

:eek:

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Ruby
The only negative info I have read is from fundamental Christians. Naturally, to them, anyone who is UU is a heretic. My parents have a friend (a unitarian) who has a funny story about that. He was in a Catholic hospital filling out paperwork when the nun behind the counter noted that he hadn't filled in what religion he was. He took back the form and entered "Unitarian". When he gave it back to the nun, she scratched it out and wrote "None". :roll:
I like it that they don't have a paid minister or clergy. This one actually does have a paid minister. I don't know what that means. Maybe the one who are familiar with just voted not to have one or maybe the one I know just voted to have one. I'm not sure what's the norm. I do know however that you can train to be a unitarian minister since, obviously, this woman did.
I like the fact that after the "sermon" you can sit and debate or discuss it with everyone..including the person who gave it. I like the fact that the "sermon" is interesting enough to debate. :)

[arcticpenguin]

I'm afraid I just don't 'get it' about Unitarianism. If it's really a social club and not a 'church' in the sense that most people mean, why not call it that? If your 'religion' has no creed and no dogma, is it really a religion in the sense in which most people use the term?

Anyway, happy wedding.

[HarryKeogh]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
I'm afraid I just don't 'get it' about Unitarianism. If it's really a social club and not a 'church' in the sense that most people mean, why not call it that? If your 'religion' has no creed and no dogma, is it really a religion in the sense in which most people use the term?

Anyway, happy wedding.

first off, congrats

secondly, i had the same thoughts as AP as i was reading the posts to this thread. well, time for me to google "unitarianism"

[ebola]

Congratulations, Upchurch.

Remember, if the new minister shows up and things become bizarre, you have plan B, the relative normalcy of Las Vegas.

Eric

[Brown]

Old joke:

When a Unitarian dies, he doesn't go to heaven. Instead, he goes to a place where he learns about heaven.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
I'm afraid I just don't 'get it' about Unitarianism. If it's really a social club and not a 'church' in the sense that most people mean, why not call it that? If your 'religion' has no creed and no dogma, is it really a religion in the sense in which most people use the term?



I don't think the UU's refer to their gatherings as "church". The one here in my town calls itself a "fellowship" in place of using "church".

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Upchurch
[B]My parents have a friend (a unitarian) who has a funny story about that. He was in a Catholic hospital filling out paperwork when the nun behind the counter noted that he hadn't filled in what religion he was. He took back the form and entered "Unitarian". When he gave it back to the nun, she scratched it out and wrote "None". :roll:

That's funny!!

This one actually does have a paid minister. I don't know what that means. Maybe the one who are familiar with just voted not to have one or maybe the one I know just voted to have one. I'm not sure what's the norm. I do know however that you can train to be a unitarian minister since, obviously, this woman did.

Yes, I am sure it has to do with how the vote goes. The local UU fellowship here has several speakers.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Brown
Old joke:

When a Unitarian dies, he doesn't go to heaven. Instead, he goes to a place where he learns about heaven.

:roll:

[Duncan]

Congratulations, Upchurch. I wish you and your fiancee only the best. Also, very interesting thread, as I had never heard of a Unitarian religion before. My interest aroused, I did a little search and here is just a smidgeon of what I found. The following was taken from my local unitarian church, which, by the way, only has 16 members.

Unitarian-Universalists are many and varied in their spiritual beliefs, and there is no single belief about the appropriate, prescribed path to spiritual growth that is the “correct” path for each person. The church provides challenges, resources and the support of a loving, caring, and thinking community for the spiritual development of all of its members, each according to need. Our church is open to all.
There is no required creed or set of beliefs to which Unitarian-Universalists must subscribe. However, the Unitarian Universalist congregations typically affirm and promote seven principles as follows:
· the inherent worth and dignity of every person
· justice, equity and compassion in human relations
· acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations
· a free and responsible search for truth and meaning
· the right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large
· promote respect for the interdependent web of all existence, of which we are a part
· the goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all

The Unitarian faith has roots in early Christianity, from the split that existed in the Christian church at the time of the Christian Council of Nicea, in the year 325, to the religious ferment that existed during the time of the Protestant Reformation. Critical thinkers and readers of the Bible pointed out that there was no Scriptural basis for the doctrine of the Trinity, or the concept of God as three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). These questioning people felt that the Bible should be interpreted by a rule of reason, and rejected official Church teachings. Because they did not believe in the Trinity, they were called Unitarians. The Unitarian church in America continued their focus on interpreting the Bible according to rational thought, and over the years, the church evolved under the influence of new waves of thought, including humanism and transcendentalism, which shifted the focus of the church beyond the Bible, to include many different views of spirituality and the world.
The Universalist Church developed in the 1700’s by those who rejected harsh Puritan, Calvinist doctrines of pre-destination, where most people were thought to be pre-destined to damnation regardless of their beliefs or activities. Universalists espoused a doctrine of universal salvation for believers, and felt that there should be a measure of accountability in human behavior.
Both Unitarian and Universalist believers were active in good works, education and social justice, helping to establish public schools, working towards prison reform, women’s rights, hospital reform, and abolitionist causes. In 1961, the two faiths merged to form the Unitarian Universalist Association of congregations, where the conjoined churches continue to work for spiritual growth, human accountability and social justice.

Anyway, it does sound interesting. I'm certainly curious. I may just have to attend one of these sermons just to see for myself what it's all about.

[Psi Baba]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
I'm afraid I just don't 'get it' about Unitarianism. If it's really a social club and not a 'church' in the sense that most people mean, why not call it that? If your 'religion' has no creed and no dogma, is it really a religion in the sense in which most people use the term?

I don't think it's so much that Unitarianism has "no creed," but rather has many creeds, or that they tolerate any and all creeds, or those who have none at all. Hence the name. Many pagans, for example, belong to the UU. It is more of a church than a social club since it's intended for people who wish to have some form of structured spirituality in their lives and a means or place to express it, but have become disillusioned by the traditional churches and creeds. It's also handy for married couples who are of different creeds but want to attend the same church as Upchurch has found out. You are also likely to be exposed to a wider range of ways in which different people express their spirituality, something you wouldn't get in an ordinary church.

[Brown]

I've been to a few Unitarian services. They were ... hard for me to understand. At one point, we were told we could pray, or not. That was weird. That choice is never allowed in Christian churches, which use the universal "Let us pray."

The accommodating nature of the service made me wonder what the church stood for.

There was one thing that I found especially objectionable. The leader offered a polite criticism of Christianity, but I thought the criticism was unreasonable (I was a member of a Christian church at the time). Upon further reflection (and no longer being a member of any church), I still think that the criticism was unreasonable, because it lumped all Christians together, and basically said that all Christians believe such-and such. Well, not all Christians hold to the same beliefs, and it's astonishing how much they disagree on. (You don't get scads of denominations and independent churches popping up from doctrinal agreement; you get them from disagreement about questions that people think are pretty darned important.)

In college, one of my very best friends was a Unitarian. She was (and still is) a person of high intelligence and high ethics.

[Yahzi]

We had a friend ordained over the internet, and got married at a small resteraunt/hotel (that used to be a girls school back in the 30's). But then, my wife is anti-religous as I am.

Here's my Unitarian joke:

A man buys a brand new Ferrari. He's kind of worried about it, so he takes out lots of insurance. But that's not enough. So he goes to a Catholic Church and asks the preist if he will bless his Ferrari.

"Of course, my son," says the Father, "but just one question first: what's a Ferrari?"

That's not good enough! So the guy leaves and drives to a Baptist church, full of singing and cheering. After the service he asks the priest to bless his Ferrari.

"Of course, brother," says the priest, "but just one question first: what's a Ferrari?"

So he's off again. He sees a Unitarian church with a parking lot full of expensive cars, and decides to try one more time. In he goes, and asks the pastor if he'll bless his Ferrari.

"Of course," says the Pastor, "but just one question first: what's a blessing?"

:D

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
I'm afraid I just don't 'get it' about Unitarianism. If it's really a social club and not a 'church' in the sense that most people mean, why not call it that? If your 'religion' has no creed and no dogma, is it really a religion in the sense in which most people use the term?

Anyway, happy wedding.
First, thanks to everyone for the congrats.

Second, (straight response) the reason it's called a "church", I think, is because it provides a sense of community based not on a creed but on a philosophy of religious inquery. (I am, of course, making this up as I go along based on my impressions) I mean, anyone could practice their religion without getting together with other people to do it, right? I'm starting to view Unitarianism as a place where deists, agnostics, and atheists could come together to practice and share their varied forms of philosophy.

So, why call it a church? (smart-ass response) Tax exempt status, of course. ;)

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Psi Baba

I don't think it's so much that Unitarianism has "no creed," but rather has many creeds, or that they tolerate any and all creeds, or those who have none at all. Technically, I believe the context of "no creed" is that Unitarianism has no creed one must adhere to in order to be a Unitarian. But essentially you are correct.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Upchurch

First, thanks to everyone for the congrats.

Second, (straight response) the reason it's called a "church", I think, is because it provides a sense of community based not on a creed but on a philosophy of religious inquery. (I am, of course, making this up as I go along based on my impressions) I mean, anyone could practice their religion without getting together with other people to do it, right? I'm starting to view Unitarianism as a place where deists, agnostics, and atheists could come together to practice and share their varied forms of philosophy.



Sounds like JREF! I think that's one reason I am very interested in visiting the local UU fellowship. I like the diversity. Plus, I can't take fundamentalist churches.

[Fun2BFree]

Most religions seem to me to be faith masquerading as reason.

Unitarianism seems to be reason masquerading as faith.

[Lemastre]

I believe most municipalities provide civil marriages. For those indifferent to organized religions, this is an economical way to get the legalities out of the way and assume married status in the eyes of the law.

[MetalSeagull]

My husband and I were married by a Unitarian minister. (An interesting woman, she had lived all over the world and spoke seven languages.)

She offered us a multiple choice-style ceremony notebook, where you could choose from up to ten versions of opening words, vows, etc. You could also write your own, or ask her to write something just for you. She said adjusts the amount of "God-talk" to suit the couple.



We haven't attended in a while, but keeep saying we're going to go back, because the topics are interesting. The little "church" is in a converted home, and is actually called a fellowship, not a church.

The fellowship offers an outlet for those of mixed religious belief, those who are interested in spirituality, but are not necessarily religious, and those who want the supportive community of a church without the dogma.

Also, you can attend in shorts and t-shirt, then drop by the gym afterward without changing clothes.

[thrombus29]

I was "Raised" Unitarian, by my second generation Unitarian/Atheist mother and left the fold/Orthodox Jewish father. Although it's been 10 years since I went to the fellowship, I spent my teen years involved in LRY (Liberal Religious Youth), and various summer camps and conferences and the like.

I don't think I ever heard god mentioned at sunday school, most of the time we were doing things like drawing parallels between world religions and using those examples to examine issues of social justice and such.

Pros.
1. Nobody is going to tell you what to think or do.
2. A good social circle of freethinkers.
3. It helps get you excited about activism again.

Cons.
1. Because of the acceptance of almost all things spiritual, a lot of new age crap gets poured in and stirred into the pot. I remember at summer camp one year we celebrated the "Harmonic Convergence". You just smile and nod.
2. If you are having Existential dilemmas and need answers, all you will get is better questions.


Telling Unitarian joke:

A fast moving fire was sweeping through the religious district, the first house of worship threatened was the catholic church.

"I must save it" The priest says as he runs into the burning church. A few minutes later he comes out with the churches gold leafed bible.

Soon the Synagogue is threatened, "I must save it" says the Rabbi as he dashes in through the flames only to return minutes later with the Torah.

Finally the Unitarian minister arrives on the scene and sees his Fellowship on fire "I must save it" he cries as he runs into the building, he comes staggering out with the coffee maker.

Telling Unitarian joke #2.

Q: How many LRY's does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: None, they screw in sleeping bags.

Personally, I would like to go to services again for my children's education, but my wife got so burnt on Roman Catholicism that she is rabidly anti any church at all.

Good luck, and congrats.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Have you considered the Ethical Society of St. Louis (http://www.ethicalstl.org/index.shtml) for the wedding? A guy I knew from a Yahoo group used to be involved there.

One of our North Texas Skeptics got married (http://ntskeptics.org/2003/2003may/may2003.htm#curtis) by the Church of Freethought.

[aerosolben]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
I'm afraid I just don't 'get it' about Unitarianism. If it's really a social club and not a 'church' in the sense that most people mean, why not call it that?

Because, in America, churches get tax breaks.

[Upchurch]

Pardon my responding to everyone in a single post.
Originally posted by Ruby
Sounds like JREF! pretty much, except the UU has singing and occasional moments of silence for prayer, meditation, or whatever trips your trigger. Kidding aside, it's very similar except that it is an IRL community, which JREF isn't, for me anyway. Plus, they support a wider variaty of social programs, many of which I could get behind.
Originally posted by Fun2BFree
Most religions seem to me to be faith masquerading as reason.

Unitarianism seems to be reason masquerading as faith. Wow. Me likey.

To Lemastre and UnrepentantSinner, my fiancee wants to get married in a church, either that or by Elvis in Vegas. If I had to choose a church, The Unitarian church works for me, both architectually and philosophically.

To thrombus29, you forgot one from the pro list. Unitarians seem to love jokes at the expense of Unitarians.

So far, I have felt the new age vibe from this group. I think it's mostly populated by academic types. Not that they are amune to the woo-woo, but they do seem to go for it less often (with some notable acceptions).

[Cristina]

Dearest Upchurch

Congratulations on your decision to wed but I strongly urge you to rethink the date :roll:

bad timing for marriage (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1060035011019)

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Cristina
Dearest Upchurch

Congratulations on your decision to wed but I strongly urge you to rethink the date :roll: Thanks Cristina, but I've already taken care of this. See, I've already seen the bride-to-be in her wedding dress (helped her pick it out, as a matter of fact), which everyone knows is bad luck. Well, from your article this is a bad time to get married, right? So, in essense, this is a bad time for my bad luck. In other words, the double negative cancels and becomes a positive!

(I know, I know. But it makes about as much sense as the astrology or the supersticion.)

[Dancing David]

Just a note on the nomenclature they are the 'you-yous', which is from the abrreveation UU, it is Unitarian-Universalist. (They combined in 1957)

They are usually very nice people who are tolerant of atheists and pagans. If they don't like you then they burn a question mark in your yard.

[Ms.Tirius]

Originally posted by thrombus29

Personally, I would like to go to services again for my children's education, but my wife got so burnt on Roman Catholicism that she is rabidly anti any church at all.


Don't use me as an excuse, you want them to go, take them yourself.

And Congrats Upchurch:)

[whitefork]

I love the Unitarians and the LRY. ("liberal religious youth" in case the sleeping-bag joke wasn't clear)

If you do decide to be married there, please give the minister some good monetary compensation. Back in my years with the Unitarians, the fellowship met at the local YMCA - woefully short of funds, and this was in a relatively affluent community.

Maybe read some Emerson, too.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Ruby



I like the fact that after the "sermon" you can sit and debate or discuss it with everyone..including the person who gave it.


:eek:

God didn't give you your mind so you could use it! I would watch out for them.

[Peach Jr.]

Congratulations Upchurch! Hope that you and your fiancee will be happy for many years to come.

My Mr. and I were married by a Unitarian minister. We were married at my parent's house - he didn't have a problem with that. At the time, the Mr. was an agnostic and I was a wiccan. He didn't have a problem with that either, and was happy to customize our vows/ceremony to whatever we wanted. All that he asked was that we attend a couple of services at the local Unitarian church (this was in the Deep South, so they were emphatic about the word "church") and see if this was what we wanted. We were pretty impressed. Nobody was especially dressed up ( a huge deal for the Mr.). We happened to be there on Gautama the Buddah's birthday. The minister brought *all* the children up to the front, told them one of the stories about Buddah's childhood, and the kids all sang a song for him. We decided then and there that if we had kids, we'd take them there for any religious ed. we wanted them to have.

Oh yes, and our local atheist/humanist group meets at the Universalist church just down the hill.

Of course, with all the wedding plans, I'm betting Vegas and Elvis is starting to look real good :D

[Keneke]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Thanks Cristina, but I've already taken care of this. See, I've already seen the bride-to-be in her wedding dress (helped her pick it out, as a matter of fact), which everyone knows is bad luck. Well, from your article this is a bad time to get married, right? So, in essense, this is a bad time for my bad luck. In other words, the double negative cancels and becomes a positive!

(I know, I know. But it makes about as much sense as the astrology or the supersticion.)


Maybe this means that wedding costs will be lowered?

[Ruby]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


God didn't give you your mind so you could use it! I would watch out for them. :D

[Agammamon]

No, no, no. If you're not a Universal Lifarian, Lifian, Lifer, then you are going to suffer whatever eternal damnation you happen to believe in. So Sayeth His Most Celestial Majesty, The Very Reverend Agammamon. Minister Of Religious Persecution, Witchfinder Persuviant, And Lord High Executioner (and ordained minister of the Universal Life Church).


(in such informal communications I tend to just use the shorter version of my titles)

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Agammamon
(and ordained minister of the Universal Life Church). Funny you should mention ULC. My fiancee actually is an ordained minister of the ULC. And she's actually married two pairs of our couple friends.

She bet the first couple that there was no way that would be legal in Missouri. If it was, she'd get ordained and do the ceremony herself. It was and she did.

[UnrepentantSinner]

I've been meaning to comment on our Upchurch adopting a religion but have been sidetracked by things like The Thread That Will Not Die. So let me say...

Good for you Upchurch!

I don't care if people who have demonstrated that they're skeptics (and have way cool avatars) convert or adopt anything from Thereveda Buddhism to Shiia Islam... as long as they continue their skepticism. I had a professor once who was a hard core logician and was taken aback when he mentioned his weekly Bible study. But I realized that his beliefs didn't lessen his hard core logicism nor what an awesome dude he was.

I have discovered the same from folks who are abstact Deists (like Hal) to people who are strict Eastern Orthodox (like my buddy Randall) so that skepticism =/= atheism and it's refreshing as an atheist to find someone who can reconcile some semblance of belief with his/her skepticism.

Good for you! :)

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Good for you Upchurch!We, thank you very much but...it's refreshing as an atheist to find someone who can reconcile some semblance of belief with his/her skepticism. ...technically, I'm still an atheist. This is more of a philosophical and sense of community pursuit rather than a discovering of personal religious belief, so to speak.

[Silicon]

Well, if they forced a gun to my head and made me join a church, that'd be the one!




It sounds good. I like that point of view, that it's a classroom in a way, in which people seek the Divine.

I'll have to check it out at some point.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Silicon
Well, if they forced a gun to my head and made me join a church, that'd be the one!

{snip}

I'll have to check it out at some point. Hey, look at me! I'm convertin' people. And with Silicon, I've made one more convert on these boards than billifan ever has!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Hey, look at me! I'm convertin' people. And with Silicon, I've made one more convert on these boards than billifan ever has! :big:

[Silicon]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Hey, look at me! I'm convertin' people.

No, you need the gun first!

[Ruby]

I finally visited the local Unitarian Fellowship and LOVED it!!

The pianist opened the service by playing Chopin. It was beautiful. I am a big classical music fan.

We sang hymns....but they were not Christian hymns. They were very unique.

The message that was presented was "How homophobia hurts us all". It was very good. There are a couple of lesbian couples in the group, and one person who is transgendered. It was sad to hear what they've had to endure....especially from the christian community.

My hubby seemed to enjoy it...especially the talkback at the end of the service.

I am feeling better all the time by leaving my fundamental Christian beliefs behind. I think my hubby is still struggling a lot more than I am.

Anyhow, we will go back to the UU fellowship next Sunday. I look forward to it!!! :)

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Ruby
I am feeling better all the time by leaving my fundamental Christian beliefs behind. I think my hubby is still struggling a lot more than I am.you should make him read and participate on this board like you do. might help him reason things through...
Anyhow, we will go back to the UU fellowship next Sunday. I look forward to it!!! :) We've been swamped with wedding planning, but we're trying to go this Sunday too.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Upchurch
you should make him read and participate on this board like you do. might help him reason things through...


I wish he could post on here, but he is far too busy with work. He was raised as a Christian. His whole family are devout Christians. I think that's why it's so hard on him.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Ruby
I wish he could post on here, but he is far too busy with work. He was raised as a Christian. His whole family are devout Christians. I think that's why it's so hard on him.
That's the great thing about Unitarianism. You can be a Unitarian and still be a Christian! Or a Wiccan, or a Buddhist... or pretty much anything except an atheist.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Tricky

That's the great thing about Unitarianism. You can be a Unitarian and still be a Christian! Or a Wiccan, or a Buddhist... or pretty much anything except an atheist.

There are some atheists in the local UUF, in Oberlin...

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi

There are some atheists in the local UUF, in Oberlin...
I'm sure. And I am a dues-paying member of the local Pagan organization, but it doesn't mean I am a Pagan. Sure, anyone is welcome in the Unitarian church, but it does, after all, espouse a version of God, even if it says "all Gods are one". A person who truly believes there is no god cannot really be a Unitarian, in spite of how much they respect them (as I do).

[whitefork]

There's a big shakeup going on on UU circles now. The fellow who's just become president, Rev. Sinkford (first African-American) has caused much consternation because of his explicit position on God - that he exists - and there are a lot of people who are not too happy about it.

Atheism and Unitarianism are in fact quite compatible.

http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html

I don't have explicit references, but the Boston Globe had a pretty detailed story a month or so ago.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Kullervo
There's a big shakeup going on on UU circles now. The fellow who's just become president, Rev. Sinkford (first African-American) has caused much consternation because of his explicit position on God - that he exists - and there are a lot of people who are not too happy about it.How strange. Do you have an link that gives more details about this?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Kullervo
There's a big shakeup going on on UU circles now. The fellow who's just become president, Rev. Sinkford (first African-American) has caused much consternation because of his explicit position on God - that he exists - and there are a lot of people who are not too happy about it.

Atheism and Unitarianism are in fact quite compatible.

http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html

I don't have explicit references, but the Boston Globe had a pretty detailed story a month or so ago.
If that's the case, then I retract my statement. It does seem odd to me though. What does "Unitarian" mean, anyway?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tricky
What does "Unitarian" mean, anyway? unitarian (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=unitarian)

1 a often capitalized : one who believes that the deity exists only in one person b capitalized : a member of a denomination that stresses individual freedom of belief, the free use of reason in religion, a united world community, and liberal social action
2 : an advocate of unity or a unitary system


I would guess that the 1 b definition is the one we're referring to in Unitarian Universalist.

[whitefork]

There's a New York Times link on their "in the news" section, but you need a subscription. I'll see if I can dredge up the Globe story somehow.

Unitarianism - well, "one god" originally, like in Judaism and Islam - it's not really Christianity in that it generally denies the divinity of Jesus. But generalizations about "what Unitarians believe" are unreliable.

Here's a link to the Globe article: http://www.religionnewsblog.com/archives/00003619.html

I like this line especiallyAlthough individual congregations have been grappling with what kind of role, if any, there is for traditional religious language on Sunday morning, the debate began in earnest in January, when the Fort Worth Star-Telegram erroneously reported that Sinkford wanted to add the word ''God'' to the denomination's statement of principles.

When I was studying to be confirmed as a Lutheran, we studied other Christian religions, and the story was "we're the Unitarians, come here and believe whatever you want to".

[Upchurch]

Incidently, my fiancee and I joined up officially yesterday.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Yahweh
Unrelated, but there are 4 churches within walking distance of my house, and about 25 others within a 30 minute driving radius from my house. Why the need for so many churches?

Because you people are so evil, you need a strong, holy prescence of god in the area to save your souls.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Incidently, my fiancee and I joined up officially yesterday.

My wife and I, both non-xian, wanted to get some sort of a traditional wedding, so we went to what I would guess is the Australian version of this church, called the Uniting Church. We told our story to the Rev, and she was quite happy to have us married there, even though we openly stated we were athiest. We were happy with the job she did, treated her and her church with respect, she was happy to get two people married who already had three kiddies. From her point of view, she was doing her bit for the institution of the family and social stability. A win/win situation.

We didn't have to join her church.

[Peach Jr.]

I don't think there's a requirement to be a member in order to be married by a Unitarian minister - though that could vary with the individual church. When the Mr. and I got married, the only thing the minister asked of us was that we attend a few weeks worth of services. The idea was that we be absolutely sure that the Unitarians were the right group for us.

[a_unique_person]

We never even had to go to a service. Actually, now that I think about it, we got to choose the service and the readings. They had a sort of multiple choice thing. We picked the bits that were not very holy, more the Jesus as humanitarian type stuff.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Ruby
I finally visited the local Unitarian Fellowship and LOVED it!!

{snippety snip}

I am feeling better all the time by leaving my fundamental Christian beliefs behind. I think my hubby is still struggling a lot more than I am.

Anyhow, we will go back to the UU fellowship next Sunday. I look forward to it!!! :) Didn't we say on another thread that you would eventually find a nice place to land that you would feel comfortable and happy and relaxed with? Most importantly, somewhere of YOUR choice? :)

I'm happy for you! And I hope hubby has a gentle landing too.

cheers
Zep

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Zep
Didn't we say on another thread that you would eventually find a nice place to land that you would feel comfortable and happy and relaxed with? Most importantly, somewhere of YOUR choice? :)

I'm happy for you! And I hope hubby has a gentle landing too.

cheers
Zep

Oh, thank you!!!:D

[Zep]

BTW, is that you smiling in your avatar? Suits you!

[Finella]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Funny you should mention intelligent design, a couple of weeks ago, one of the hymns (which normally boar me to tears) actually referenced evolution as being true! It took me pleasently by surprise.

Hey, Upchurch.... it wouldn't be the song in my [new] .sig, would it? I just heard that it's being included in the new Unitarian hymnal, which I think is pretty darn cool. Any church that sings Dave Carter songs is alright by me. :)

---,---'--{@

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

We didn't have to join her church. We don't have to either. We chose to.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Finella


Hey, Upchurch.... it wouldn't be the song in my [new] .sig, would it? It's been several weeks since I heard the song, but I'm fairly sure it's not the same song. The one I heard actually had the word "evolution" in it.

Sorry I can't remember more details about it.