Parents encouraging underage drinking

[Wile E. Coyote]

I was recently told by my female cousin that her mother, my aunt, allows her son, my male cousin, to smoke and drink in the house. My cousin, John, is 17 years old and has been in and out of jail and recently drug rehab. John has always been polite around me, and I know that he is actually a very smart, well-mannered young man ... in the right company.

My aunt buys him cartons of cigarettes, which completely confuses me. Why would she encourage that behavior? There is no obvious justification.

She also lets him drink alcohol at home. Her reasoning, apparently, is that she would rather have him drinking at home under her supervision than with his friends, getting in trouble.

There are two things amiss about this:
1. She plays drinking games with him. This does not teach responsible drinking.
2. Why does she think he will not go out drinking with his friends anyway? Is it more cool to drink with your Mom than with your friends? I don't think so.

My older brother says it is a good idea to allow him to drink at home because then he is not getting into trouble. I say that she is actually setting a bad example because she is not teaching him to drink responsibly, and she is not providing a form of entertainment that does not involve alcohol.

What are your views on this?

[Thanz]

Your aunt is, uh, whack. I use that term to hopefully imply that older people will think she is out of her gourd while teenage boys will think she is cool.

Is there an uncle in the picture? If so, what does he think?

If not, is it possible that your aunt is getting some of her (non-sexual) peer male interaction with her son instead of those her own age? I mean, drinking games with your son?? It sounds too weird for me. Drinking games might be something you do with your friends, but definitely not your kids.

Besides, IMO, once you are old enough to have a 17 year old son you should not think that drinking games are fun or cool any more.

[Trish]

My father told me that there was alcohol in the house, that if I wanted to try it, I could. Then he also informed me that if I were out drinking with my friends, to call for a ride, no questions asked. I was 16 at the time. I don't think I started drinking until I went in the military.

The behavior you're describing is irresponsible. There is a difference between responsible consumption of alcohol and getting trashed to get trashed. I would be concerned that mom also has a drinking problem. As for the cigarettes, in less than a year he'll legally be able to purchase them. There might not be much you can do to prevent him from pursuing the smoking.

[Tony]

I see nothing wrong with parents allowing their kids to do alcohol or drugs.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by Trish
The behavior you're describing is irresponsible. There is a difference between responsible consumption of alcohol and getting trashed to get trashed. I would be concerned that mom also has a drinking problem. As for the cigarettes, in less than a year he'll legally be able to purchase them. There might not be much you can do to prevent him from pursuing the smoking.

I believe my family has a genetic predisposition towards mild alcoholism. This is one of the reasons that I do not drink.

My aunt is a very smart lady with a too-big heart. This has caused a lot of problems with John. I cannot decide whether she wants the best for him or wants him to like her. Unselfish parents need to realize loving your child more than yourself sometimes means that you have to do things that make your child not too fond of you. It is just one more sacrifice that accompanies parenthood.

John's father is a complete loser, abusive and drunken. He does not live at home anymore. My aunt's live-in boyfriend is a complete loser of another breed. Low-class, unemployment-leeching, lazy, do-nothing, know-it-all, trashy, un-educated mooch. He typically is without a job and the kids, much like everyone else, have no respect for him. So you can probably see a pattern here.

I try to do things with John when I can, such as hiking and fishing, which he loves, but I only have so much time and a family of my own. John respects me and always has fun with me, but his mother is just too soft-hearted to stick to her guns.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by Tony
I see nothing wrong with parents allowing their kids to do alcohol or drugs.

Please justify your opinion.

[arcticpenguin]

Look at the bright side. Smoking and under-age drinking? Could be worse. At least your cousin isn't running down joggers with a car in order to have sex with their corpses. (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,6877582%255E1702,00.html)

[zakur]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
Look at the bright side. Smoking and under-age drinking? Could be worse. At least your cousin isn't running down joggers with a car in order to have sex with their corpses. (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,6877582%255E1702,00.html) :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
Look at the bright side. Smoking and under-age drinking? Could be worse. At least your cousin isn't running down joggers with a car in order to have sex with their corpses. (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,6877582%255E1702,00.html)

Speaking of hijacking.

[SteveW]

My wife and I both smoke so when our 16 year old son started there was not much we could say. We buy him a carton a week, the same as us.

As to drinking, absolutely not. Smoking a cig doesn't impair your judgement.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Wile E. Coyote


Please justify your opinion.


Justify yours, (im assuming) you're the one who sees something wrong with it, I dont.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Tony



Justify yours, (im assuming) you're the one who sees something wrong with it, I dont.
you see nothing wrong with child abuse?

Do you think that allowing children to "do alcohol and drugs" Is anything other than child abuse?

[coalesce]

Originally posted by Wile E. Coyote


I believe my family has a genetic predisposition towards mild alcoholism. This is one of the reasons that I do not drink.

My aunt is a very smart lady with a too-big heart. This has caused a lot of problems with John. I cannot decide whether she wants the best for him or wants him to like her. Unselfish parents need to realize loving your child more than yourself sometimes means that you have to do things that make your child not too fond of you. It is just one more sacrifice that accompanies parenthood.

John's father is a complete loser, abusive and drunken. He does not live at home anymore. My aunt's live-in boyfriend is a complete loser of another breed. Low-class, unemployment-leeching, lazy, do-nothing, know-it-all, trashy, un-educated mooch. He typically is without a job and the kids, much like everyone else, have no respect for him. So you can probably see a pattern here.

I try to do things with John when I can, such as hiking and fishing, which he loves, but I only have so much time and a family of my own. John respects me and always has fun with me, but his mother is just too soft-hearted to stick to her guns.

My first thought is, "Wow, when will we see them on 'Cops?'"

My second thought is that I hope you make enough of an impression on John and show him that just because everyone else in his immediate circle is a chronic underachiever (or "loser," if you will), that doesn't mean he has to be. Sooner or later, John will learn that there are always consequences for his actions. Eat too much, you gain weight. Drink too much, you put yourself and others around you in jeopardy, whether you intend to or not.

You can point out to him that unless he wants to increase his chances of ending up like his aunt's live-in boyfriend, he had better realize the steps he needs to take to avoid stumbling down that same road. And if he protests that it's too hard, or that all his friends can drink without repercussions, point out to him, by your own example, that it can be done. Point out that the only limitations he faces are the ones he imposes upon himself. Point out to him that he is not a cow, that he doesn't have to adhere to a herd-like mentality. And if he has to scrape his knees to learn what his limits are, then let him. If I read your intentions right, I don't think you'll try to protect him from the consequences of his actions.

That doesn't mean I advocate that he should never drink again. What I do mean is that he should learn that doing shots with his mom in the kitchen is not the healthiest thing to do. He should learn that drinking is a perfectly acceptable social activity, but that it also carries with it some responsibility. And after reading a few of your posts on other subjects, I think John has an excellent role model in you.

Michael

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Wile E. Coyote
My aunt buys him cartons of cigarettes, which completely confuses me. Why would she encourage that behavior? There is no obvious justification.
There is a little justification. Your aunt probably realizes your cousin is addicted to cigarettes and is going to smoke them regardless of whatever rules are set against it (addiction is a very powerful and hard to break dirty dirty habit). Its easier to supply cigarettes rather than find the guy in police custody for illegally purchasing or stealing cigarettes on his own.

If your aunt is buying your cousin cigarettes, it would probably be better if your cousin paid for them.

She also lets him drink alcohol at home. Her reasoning, apparently, is that she would rather have him drinking at home under her supervision than with his friends, getting in trouble.
Drinking is a big "No-no". The reason why drinking crosses the line and cigarettes dont is the fact drinking can make you drunk. Cigarettes wont impair your judgement, impair your driving, make you surly, alter your personality, hurt your liver, or kill your brain.

There is a difference between drinking for pleasure and drinking to get drunk. In any case, wait 'til youre 21 or older when you have better judgement and impulse control.

[Tony]

Originally posted by The Fool

you see nothing wrong with child abuse?

Do you think that allowing children to "do alcohol and drugs" Is anything other than child abuse?

I'm not going to dignify this stupidity with an answer, so Ill leave it at that.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by Tony

Justify yours, (im assuming) you're the one who sees something wrong with it, I dont.

I am asking you to back up your claim that it is OK to play drinking games with your child. I want to know how you can think that encouraging wreckless behavior is something parents should do. If this was your child and someone asked you why you allowed him to drink at home, what would you say?

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by coalesce


My first thought is, "Wow, when will we see them on 'Cops?'"

My second thought is that I hope you make enough of an impression on John and show him that just because everyone else in his immediate circle is a chronic underachiever (or "loser," if you will), that doesn't mean he has to be.

That doesn't mean I advocate that he should never drink again. What I do mean is that he should learn that doing shots with his mom in the kitchen is not the healthiest thing to do. He should learn that drinking is a perfectly acceptable social activity, but that it also carries with it some responsibility. And after reading a few of your posts on other subjects, I think John has an excellent role model in you.


They would certainly fit in on "Cops".

As much as I try to make an impression on him, he has other influences that take him in the other direction. He dropped out of school last year and has been in and out of jobs ever since. When his friends get out of school he hangs out with them and gets in trouble. Even if I see him twice a week he still has five days a week where he is hanging with the wrong crowd.

My aunt realizes that time spent with me is good for John, but she seems to ignore the fact that her sloppy parenting negates any positive effect I might have.

John yearns to be good and to be accepted, but he has no good role models, and I just can't be there for him all the time. What a waste.

[RPG Advocate]

To be perfectly frank, I would cut off all contact with your aunt's entire immediate family, including John. It sounds the entire household is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. Best not to be involved when the police come calling.

Had this situation been caught earlier, I would have said to report it to your local DCFS office, but at 17, there's little that can be done. Allowing (much less encouraging!) children to drink and smoke is most certainly some sort of abuse/endangerment/negligence.

When a child's primary support structure is encouraging these destructive behaviors, there's very little that an outsider can do. The person has to realize for themselves that the path they've chosen will lead to ruin. For some, it will take the harsh reality of real consequences such as fines or jail time.

Also, are you openly condemning this behavior when you see him? If you're not, you should. Maybe it will create some cognitive dissonance. :D

[Tony]

Originally posted by Wile E. Coyote


I am asking you to back up your claim that it is OK to play drinking games with your child. I want to know how you can think that encouraging wreckless behavior is something parents should do.

This is a complete misrepresentation. I said:

I see nothing wrong with parents allowing their kids to do alcohol or drugs.

No where in that statement did I use the words "child" , "drinking games" or "encourage".


If this was your child and someone asked you why you allowed him to drink at home, what would you say?

I wouldn’t allow a "child" to drink @ home. I think the earliest I would allow a kid to drink would be 15.

Ohh and if someone asked me why I allowed my kids to drink @ home, I would say "why not?".

[Eos of the Eons]

I don't drink in front of my kids. I also condemn cigarettes like they are the devil's tool. Cigarettes do alter your brain to work with nicotine...nicotine replaces your own chemicals. That's why it is so hard to quit. You get 'wired' for nicotine. I read that in a news article once. I'll try to find something on the topic that I can post here.

I just hate people at work who are having a nic fit in the middle of a meeting. I also hated it when I was left holding the ball at work while all the smokers went out to have a cigarrette.


That aunt is a poor excuse for a mother, no matter how 'nice' she is. What is she teaching him about how to not be a loser? Nothing. If that kid will have a much higher chance of being an alcoholic himself in the near future. Is that kid planning on getting a job any time soon? How will he support himself when he wants to leave home? What will his kids have for a father figure?


My kids see their relatives drink at family functions, but none of them allow their kids to drink. They also never play drinking games with their kids or let them have cigarettes. I can't say there is an alcoholic in the family on either side.

Kids learn by a parent's actions and outlook. Adding a bad example to a situation where the kid may also be more prone to addiction doesn't help at all.

My parents didn't get wasted in front of me. I don't drink much as an adult. The sooner a kid drinks and smokes, the more it changes their brains and bodies to becoming addicted. It's a damn waste of money and a horrible waste of a life to loserdom.

Nicotine appears to be an MAO-B inhibitor increasing DPA. This is the reasoning why Zyban,which blocks the re-uptake of DPA, can reduce the craving for nicotine.

From http://biopsychiatry.com

SELEGILINE (l-deprenyl)
A recent New York study showed that smokers had on average 40% less of the enzyme, monoamine oxidase type-B, in their brains than non-smokers. Levels returned to normal on their giving up smoking. Not merely is the extra dopamine in the synapses rewarding. The level of MAO-b inhibition smokers enjoy apparently contributes to their reduced incidence of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease.



http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030609/msgs/232724.html


Nicotine in tobacco smoke increases the number of nicotine receptor sites in the brain by two-to three-fold, and this nicotine receptor proliferation may not be reversible in humans...(positive) effects lessen over time leading to increased amount used, and attempts to stop gives negative effects (irritability, dysphoria, poor concentration).


Adult smokers have higher rates of alcohol dependence and illicit drug dependence.
Nicotine dependence is associated with other mental disorders, seen in 50 percent of psychiatric outpatients, 70 percent of persons with Bipolar I Disorder, and 90 percent of persons with schizophrenia.

http://www.texmed.org/cme/phn/ndt/process.asp

I think it's that people with those disorders are more likely to smoke, not that smoking leads to those disorders. It's also that people who would do drugs and drink alcohol are more likely to smoke than someone who would see drugs and alcohol in a less acceptable light.


However nicotine may not be the only psychoactive ingredient in tobacco. Using advanced brain imaging technology, it is possible to actually see what tobacco smoking is doing to the brain of an awake and behaving human being. Using one type of brain imaging, positron emission tomography (PET), scientists discovered that cigarette smoking causes a dramatic decrease in the levels of an important enzyme that breaks down dopamine.

The decrease in this enzyme, known as monoamine-oxidase-A (MAO-A), results in an increase in dopamine levels. Importantly, this particular effect is not caused by nicotine but by some additional, unknown compound in cigarette smoke. Nicotine itself does not alter MAO-A levels; it affects dopamine through other mechanisms. Thus, there may be multiple routes by which smoking alters the neurotransmitter dopamine to ultimately produce feelings of pleasure and reward.



Umm, increased dopamine levels can lead to schizophrenia though. Ugh. Scary.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Tony
I see nothing wrong with parents allowing their kids to do alcohol or drugs.

I'm willing to bet that when you are actually a parent, Tony, you will change your stance on this somewhat.
Just a hunch on my part.

[Peach Jr.]

Your aunt sounds disturbingly like my in-laws. They were parents of 2 young boys back in the 70's/early 80's. They didn't see anything wrong with letting their 12 and 13-year-olds drink and smoke in their house (the smoking was not limited to tobacco, BTW). When they were divorced for the second time (my Mr. was 16), some pretty awful things happened with my mum-in-law and my Mr. I won't go into details on a public forum, but it was bad enough that my mum-in-law will not be having *any* unsupervised visits with any of our children. Ever.

To sum up, I agree with RPG's answer to you - run the hell away from *all* of them. If your cousin needs you, he will find you. Trust in that and get away from the whole situation.

(edited to add) Both my Mr. and my brother-in-law have serious problems with substance abuse. The Mr. is a part of Secular Sobriety, and it's working for him so far - I have no idea what's happening with his brother; as far as I know, he's still drinking and using.

[Eos of the Eons]

I'm sorry to hear all that Peach Jr. I'm glad your Mr. has someone as wonderful and supportive as you in his life.

This is a case in point scenario about letting kids smoke and drink being child abuse. They have problems with substance abuse now. That is no way to set up a child for a happy productive adult life.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Tony


I think the earliest I would allow a kid to drink would be 15.


Lol...is a 15 year old a child in your imaginary world Tony?

[Tony]

Originally posted by The Fool

Lol...is a 15 year old a child in your imaginary world Tony?


I wasnt a child when I was 15.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Tony



I wasnt a child when I was 15.
Sorry Tony, no matter how tough/cool/smart you thought you were, you were a child.

[Eos of the Eons]

Are you sure he isn't still a child :D ;) :p
Hey, if you can call me an idiot Tony, I can call you immature.

[Tony]

Originally posted by The Fool

Sorry Tony, no matter how tough/cool/smart you thought you were, you were a child.

According to who?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons

Hey, if you can call me an idiot Tony, I can call you immature.


And if you can call me immature, I can call you a poo poo head. :p

[Eos of the Eons]

Umm, that's for sure :roll: :p

[BobK]

I believe Tony is right.

Child is used until puberty. Then a person is called an adolescent or youth until they reach maturity.

If anyone had called me a child at age 15, I certainly would have taken offense.

If a parent allows their son or daughter to have a glass of wine with their meal, are they committing child abuse?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by BobK
I believe Tony is right.

Child is used until puberty. Then a person is called an adolescent or youth until they reach maturity.

If anyone had called me a child at age 15, I certainly would have taken offense.

If a parent allows their son or daughter to have a glass of wine with their meal, are they committing child abuse?
Thats not tonys position...
He said...
"I see nothing wrong with parents allowing their kids to do alcohol or drugs"
I put it to you that the "glass of wine with thier meal" line is a strawman, I was discussing the statement "allowing your kids to do alcohol or drugs" which is child abuse, according to me and according to the law... Unless, of course, we assume he was actually talking about juvenile goats?

You can invent all the sub category names you like...adolescent,infant,toddler....In My country you are a child until you are 18...is it different in your country? If you are not yet an adult, what are you? Do you have pre and post puberty laws or pre and post adulthood laws?

[BobK]

Fool,

Actually my post was mostly in reference to your statement...Sorry Tony, no matter how tough/cool/smart you thought you were, you were a child.

Your adamant statement applies to one definition of child but a more common definition is "a young person especially between infancy and youth". By disallowing Tony's statement of 15 not being a child you are stating as fact that Tony's definition is not valid. Mr. Webster would disagree with you.

You may be legally correct, I don't know, but your made no mention of using the term in a strictly legal sense. That being the case, it seems to me that Tony's use of the more common definition was perfectly valid.

The wine question was simply an afterthought.

As to pre and post adulthood laws, yes we do have them.
Special rules for minors don'tcha know.
Doesn't Australia do the same?

You seem to be using the age of 18 to define the end of child abuse.
I guess I must be a child abuser. Funny, I don't feel like one.
I think my children were early teens when I first gave them a beer.
Both my boys turned out very well, thank you.
Neither one has become an alchohol abuser and in fact drink only occasionally and not to excess.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by BobK
Fool,

Actually my post was mostly in reference to your statement...

Your adamant statement applies to one definition of child but a more common definition is "a young person especially between infancy and youth". By disallowing Tony's statement of 15 not being a child you are stating as fact that Tony's definition is not valid. Mr. Webster would disagree with you.

You may be legally correct, I don't know, but your made no mention of using the term in a strictly legal sense. That being the case, it seems to me that Tony's use of the more common definition was perfectly valid.

The wine question was simply an afterthought.

As to pre and post adulthood laws, yes we do have them.
Special rules for minors don'tcha know.
Doesn't Australia do the same?

You seem to be using the age of 18 to define the end of child abuse.
I guess I must be a child abuser. Funny, I don't feel like one.
I think my children were early teens when I first gave them a beer.
Both my boys turned out very well, thank you.
Neither one has become an alchohol abuser and in fact drink only occasionally and not to excess.

Bob.
Tony is a troll. He uses statements like "I see nothing wrong with parents allowing their kids to do alcohol or drugs." Because it is an inflamitory statement that he can then backslide on. If he meant "I see no great harm in allowing a child to have some wine with a meal" he would have said that. If challenged he will normally backslide on his statements saying that word X does not mean what people commonly believe word X to mean.... ie "kid" does not mean child..."doing alcohol and drugs" does not mean becoming intoxicated it means a sip of wine...what bullsh*t.

[Eos of the Eons]

You seem to be using the age of 18 to define the end of child abuse.
I guess I must be a child abuser. Funny, I don't feel like one.
I think my children were early teens when I first gave them a beer.
Both my boys turned out very well, thank you.
Neither one has become an alchohol abuser and in fact drink only occasionally and not to excess.

I would only call it abuse when they are encouraged to drink until they are drunk several times a month. Otherwise, alcoholic adults don't make good parents on top of that.

A drink of wine at the dinner table is responsible enough, especially if it's only on special occasions. My brother wouldn't touch wine though, thought it was gross. Must have been a dry wine. I got into vodka coolers when I was 16, and away from adult supervision. Noone ever drank in my house. I hardly ever drink now. Maybe 3 times a year.

[BobK]

Fool,

I'm not very familiar with Tony's posts, so I'll bow to your judgement in the matter.

Hope there are no ill feelings about my butting in.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by BobK
Fool,

I'm not very familiar with Tony's posts, so I'll bow to your judgement in the matter.

Hope there are no ill feelings about my butting in.

Absolutely not Bob.... I do take your point about introducing children to the social consumption of alcohol.

Alcoholism is a huge problem in parts of Australian society, It destroys whole communities. Alcoholic parents stand very little chance of preventing thier children from going down the same path. It is the responsibility of parents to most definitely see something wrong in thier children "doing alcohol and drugs" and I see modelling responsible consumption as a very important part.

Ever seen a rotten drunk parent telling a child off for being drunk too? Its both sad and funny at the same time.....

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Drinking is a big "No-no". The reason why drinking crosses the line and cigarettes dont is the fact drinking can make you drunk. Cigarettes wont impair your judgement, impair your driving, make you surly, alter your personality, hurt your liver, or kill your brain.


On the other hand, there is a "safe" level of alcohol intake at which you are unlikely to do long term damage to your health. This is not the case for smoking. Smoking will impair your driving (if you combine the two activities, same as if you combine alcohol and driving), alter your personality (effect of nicotine), hurt your lungs (cancer) and in a large percentage of cases, result in your early death.

The US attitude to alcohol has always seem strange to me, from the history of prohibition to the unusually high (compared with other countries) legal drinking age in some states. Anyone got a theory as to what makes alcohol such an issue in the US?

[Eos of the Eons]

I think it has something to do with the deaths caused by drunk drivers. The older a person is, it is thought the more responsible they will be and not drive drunk or drink too much as much.


Also, fetal alcohol syndrome is heart wrenching. A normal healthy bit of human life destroyed before they ever had the chance to experience life.

There are tragedies related to alcohol.

Any other theories?

[Wile E. Coyote]

Drunk people do a lot of damage. They urinate in public, destroy road signs, get into fights, kill people when they drive, and become abusive.

With impaired judgement, a lot of damage can be done. For the most part a cigarette only does damage to the people smoking and those they are with.

Alcohol is a major cause of sick days in the workforce due to hangovers. Alcohol has the potential to ruin a life in a matter of hours or even minutes as opposed to the matter of years that smoking takes.

P.S. I am completely against smoking as well.

Edited to correct : Actually stress is the number one cause of sick days. No specific figures, but a quick search on Google brings up a few sources that claim hangovers are a pretty big problem. This is completely anecdotal, however.

[American]

My parents drove me to drink as well. I don't blame them cause they didn't know any better because I didn't speak up enough for myself, but really it was their nagging that did it.

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by SteveW
My wife and I both smoke so when our 16 year old son started there was not much we could say. We buy him a carton a week, the same as us.

As to drinking, absolutely not. Smoking a cig doesn't impair your judgement. Sems to me your whole post contradicts the last sentence.

[American]

Originally posted by SteveW
As to drinking, absolutely not. Smoking a cig doesn't impair your judgement.


That is absolutely stupid. You can drink in moderation, and even occasional drunkeness isn't a huge threat to your health (not necessarily, anyway). You really can't play the same game with cigarettes. You're insane.

[Eos of the Eons]

Umm, has anyone ever noticed that smokers are a little more 'on edge' than those who don't smoke? I've also noticed that older people who smoke and drink a lot are more prone to take things the wrong way and either get mad or fly off the handle.

This by no means that everyone who smokes is like that, I just noticed this in a large amount of smokers. I know a couple who are quite jovial, but then those ones seem more scatterbrained.

So I think the nicotine and host of other ingredients really can mess with your brain and judgement since it does change your brain.

I could be making a scatterbrained correllation myself here, but I was wondering if anyone thought the same sometimes. I can be very on edge too, and I don't smoke, but even more on edge around a thick smog of cigarette smoke.

[Tony]

Originally posted by The Fool


Bob.
Tony is a troll. He uses statements like "I see nothing wrong with parents allowing their kids to do alcohol or drugs." Because it is an inflamitory statement that he can then backslide on. If he meant "I see no great harm in allowing a child to have some wine with a meal" he would have said that. If challenged he will normally backslide on his statements saying that word X does not mean what people commonly believe word X to mean.... ie "kid" does not mean child..."doing alcohol and drugs" does not mean becoming intoxicated it means a sip of wine...


I belive you summed up your own dripple with this:

what bullsh*t.


I stand by my comment.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Tony

I stand by my comment.
I'm sure you do....can't justify, rationalise, explain or understand it, but stand by it anyway.....

[Tony]

Originally posted by The Fool

I'm sure you do....can't justify, rationalise, explain or understand it, but stand by it anyway.....


There is really nothing to justify or rationalize. I simply see nothing wrong with allowing a kid to drink or do drugs.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Tony



There is really nothing to justify or rationalize. I simply see nothing wrong with allowing a kid to drink or do drugs.
And should you ever have the oportunity to put your policy into practice, you will be a child abuser....congratulations.

[Tony]

Originally posted by The Fool

And should you ever have the oportunity to put your policy into practice, you will be a child abuser....congratulations.


:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

A child abuser? Says who?

Care to explain how giving a kid the freedom to make his/her own decisions constitutes child abuse?

[Eos of the Eons]

Um, you're supposed to parent kids, not grant them freedoms that are harmful. Will you grant kids the freedom to stay out all night too? Will you grant them the freedom to have orgies in your home and raise the number of teen pregnancies as a result?

It is the parent's job to teach children, not just let them do what they want to. Being a parent is just that, you are supposed to parent the kids until they have the judgement and self control to make better decisions. This judgement and self control is learned from the parent.

Kids have bad judgement because they aren't aware of consequences. They can't understand them until a certain age. A hormone raged teen is not the best at making judgements and recognizing consequences. That is why they have parents to watch out for them. Kids also have less self control because they aren't aware or have the insight to recognize when an action is dangerous.

Noone grants a toddler the freedom to play on a road. It's dangerous.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Wile E. Coyote
<snip>

There are two things amiss about this:
1. She plays drinking games with him. This does not teach responsible drinking.
2. Why does she think he will not go out drinking with his friends anyway? Is it more cool to drink with your Mom than with your friends? I don't think so.

What are your views on this?

I think you Aunt is trying to hard to be your cousin's pal rather than his parent, and that is a problem. Your cousin, like all children, needs limits and your Aunt is not impossing any which in my opinion leads to more and more dangerous behaviors in children because children often push as far as they can to see where their limits are set.

I have never understood the whole, "Better in front of me than behind my back" attitude because it really doesn't work. Encouraging your child to partake in destructive behaviors as long as they are in front of you, is sending the wrong message, and it, IMO, destructive to the child. One would encourage one's child to commit murder at home to keep him from going out and doing it. It is absurd reasoning. One must set down rules and expect them to be followed, and set up reasonable consequences if the rules are broken.

Now that said, I allow my 16 year old son an occasional glass of wine. Not because I am afraid that he will go out and drink behind my back, but because he likes it and the occasional glass will not bring him harm, and I am hoping that he learns to be a responsible drinker.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by Tony
Care to explain how giving a kid the freedom to make his/her own decisions constitutes child abuse?

Perhaps when you have a child of your own and then lose him/her to an unwise decision made due to immaturity/alcohol/drugs you will change your point of view. Maybe you think children and adolescents are capable of reliably making good decisions that benefit their long-term goals as opposed to instant gratification, but most intelligent adults would disagree.

Like I said earlier, it is not the parent's responsibility to be friends with their child. You do not have to be liked, but you have a duty as a parent to give your child the best opportunity you can manage. Drugs and alcohol do not fit into this model.

[American]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Um, you're supposed to parent kids, not grant them freedoms that are harmful. Will you grant kids the freedom to stay out all night too? Will you grant them the freedom to have orgies in your home and raise the number of teen pregnancies as a result?

It is the parent's job to teach children, not just let them do what they want to. Being a parent is just that, you are supposed to parent the kids until they have the judgement and self control to make better decisions. This judgement and self control is learned from the parent.

Kids have bad judgement because they aren't aware of consequences. They can't understand them until a certain age. A hormone raged teen is not the best at making judgements and recognizing consequences. That is why they have parents to watch out for them. Kids also have less self control because they aren't aware or have the insight to recognize when an action is dangerous.

Noone grants a toddler the freedom to play on a road. It's dangerous.



That's all so wrong, I don't know where to begin.....

What kind of mother are you?! God. I'd kill myself so fast if I were your son.

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by American
That's all so wrong, I don't know where to begin.....Brilliantly argued. :rolleyes:

What kind of mother are you?! God. I'd kill myself so fast if I were your son. I'm a parent of three, and I see nothing wrong whatsoever with the post you object to.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by American




That's all so wrong, I don't know where to begin.....

What kind of mother are you?! God. I'd kill myself so fast if I were your son.

ha ha ha. At least my kid will live past the age of 3, and even to adulthood.