Real İslam is only in Quran

[Emre_1974tr]

From Edip Yüksel's Manifesto:

“O people, a proof has come to you from your Lord, and We have sent down to you a guiding light.” (4:174)

“… and do not make corruption on the Earth after it has been reformed… ” (7:85)

“It is one of the great ones. A warning to humanity. For any among you who wishes to progress or regress” (74:36-37).

The influence of the religion concocted by clerics during the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties is still dominant in Muslim countries. The blasphemous idea that the Quran is incomplete, unintelligible, and insufficient for spiritual guidance created a huge demand for religious books, and clergymen with big turbans and long beards supplied volumes of them. The masses were told that those books were going to complete, explain, and detail the Quranic revelation. These clerics thus implied that God was not a wise and articulate author; He could not make His message sufficiently clear and he failed to provide guidance on many issues, sometimes even issues involving important spiritual principles and practices. Without these supplementary books, the Quran was of limited use to the individual seeking religious guidance. Some even went so far as to declare that reading the Quran alone would mislead the reader. Numerous books of hadith and sectarian jurisprudence (sharia) were labeled “authentic” and for all practical purposes, they replaced the Quran. The Quran was not a book to be understood on its own; people needed to read books written by professional narrators, collectors, editors, and scholars of hearsay and speculation. Many people got lost among the volumes of books written to interpret and explain the Quran and did not find sufficient time to study the Quran itself. The privileged few who did find that time, had little chance of understanding it, since their minds were tainted with man-made religious instructions, and their logic had been corrupted by contradictory teachings or what we call might call “holy viruses.”

Although religious scholars, clerics and their blind followers have always demonstrated the utmost formal respect for the Quran as physical media, (the leather or paper on which the verses of the Quran were written) they lost faith in, and respect for its message. Verses of the Quran are hung in high places on the walls, touched and treated with utmost reverence, yet Muslims rarely refer to them for their guidance. They are too confused by the contradictory and tangled maze of thousands of hadith falsely attributed to Muhammad and lost among the trivial details of sectarian books. When they occasionally refer to the Quran, it is most likely to be in an abusive manner, abusing the verses by taking them out of context and using them as slogans to declare holy wars or justify aggression. The Quran that liberated people from the darkness of ignorance was transformed, soon after Muhammad’s departure, to a book whose verses were recited for the dead, an amulet carried by the mentally and physically sick, and a paper idol to be revered and feared.

Though the Quran is considered one of the most read books, millions of Muslims read the Quran without understanding it. Even if their native language is Arabic, they are taught not to trust their understanding. The Quran might be the most read book, but unfortunately, due to the concerted effort of religious clerics, it has been turned to the least understood and the least followed popular book in history.

When the mass reversion from the progressive and enlightening message of the Quran started, those who rejected the fabricated hadith and Sunna, the Arab version of Jewish Mishna and Gemara, they were labeled as “murtad” (apostates) and they were threatened, tortured and murdered by the followers of hadith and sunna. For instance, a critical study of the Muslim history will reveal that Abu Hanifa was one of those courageous monotheists (hanif) who was persecuted during both the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties. During his lifetime, he was accused of not accepting hadith. However, the murderers took advantage of his growing reputation after his death and led the creation of a Sunni sect falsely attributed to him.

The Origins of Hislam

After the death of the Prophet Muhammad, a diabolic event happened. In direct contradiction to the teachings of the Quran, male clerics dedicated the religion not to God alone, but to a “holy” corporation consisting of:

God +
Muhammad +
Muhammad’s companions +
The companions of Muhammad’s companions +
Early sect leaders +
Late sect leaders +
Early scholars of a particular sect +
Late scholars of a particular sect, and so on.
The product of this corporation was the hadith (teachings attributed to Muhammad), the Sunna (actions attributed to Muhammad), the Ijma (consensus of a select group of early scholars), and the Sharia (religious decrees by early scholars). The result was numerous hostile factions that afflicted a great amount of division and atrocities in the land about thirty years after the departure of Muhammad (6:159; 23:52-56). This concoction of medieval Arab/Christian/Jewish cultures was introduced to the masses as God’s infallible religion, as delivered by the last prophet. The only thing actually delivered by God to Muhammad, however, was the text of the Holy Quran, which is set out as the final and authoritative divine message to humankind:

“Once We recite it, you shall follow such a recitation (Quran). Then, it is We who will explain it.” (75:18-19)

Unfortunately, ignorance, intolerance, misogynist teachings, superstitions, and outdated practices have accumulated over the centuries in interpreting and translating the holy book of Islam. It is time to re-introduce the actual message of the Quran. It is time to remove the accumulated layers of man-made dogmas and traditions that have attached themselves to the text. (6:21; 7:29; 9:31; 16:52; 39:2,11,14; 40:14,65; 42:21; 45.17; 74:1-56; 98:5).

Under a very cruel theocratic state terror, many men mobilized to participate in the creation what we rightly call Hislam. They did not have much chance to add or subtract to what was considered The Quran, but there was a lot of room for innovations, superstitions, additions and distortions through fabricating hadith. When a man from Bukhara started collecting hearsay more than two hundred years after the departure of the prophet Muhammad, the landscape and social demographics were fertile for all kinds of theological concoctions and mutations. Those people and their parents had participated in numerous sectarian wars and atrocities. Many educated Gentiles, Christians and Jews were converted to Islam for dubious reasons. Most of these converts had never experienced a paradigm change; they just found it convenient to integrate their culture and most of their previous religious ideas with the new one. To justify and promote their version of religion, the elite started packaging and introducing their religious, cultural, and political ideas and practices under the brand names of hadith, sunna, commentaries, and fatwas. Besides, they fabricated numerous stories called “asbab ul-nuzul” (the reasons for revelation) about why each verse was revealed, thereby distorting the meaning or limiting the scope of many Quranic verses. There was a great effort and competition to distort the meaning of words, taking them out of context to promote the agenda of a certain religion, culture, tribe, sect, cult, or king. Male chauvinists, hermits, misogynists too took advantage of this deformation movement. Hearsay statements attributing words and deeds to Muhammad and his idolized comrades became the most powerful tool or Trojan horse, for promotion of diverse political propaganda, cultural assimilation, and even commercial advertisement. As a result, the Quran was deserted and its message was heavily distorted. 1

Soon after Muhammad’s death, thousands of hadiths (words attributed to Muhammad) were fabricated and two centuries later collected, and centuries later were compiled and written in the so-called “authentic” hadith books:

to support the teaching of a particular sect against another (for instance, what nullifies ablution; which sea food is prohibited);
to flatter or justify the authority and practice of a particular king against dissidents (such as, Mahdy and Dajjal);
to promote the interest of a particular tribe or family (such as, favoring Quraysh tribe or Muhammad’s family);
to justify sexual abuse and misogyny (such as, Aisha’s age; barring women from leading Salat prayers);
to justify violence, oppression and tyranny (such as, torturing members of Urayna and Uqayla tribes, massacring Jewish population in Medina, assassinating a female poet for her critical poems);
to exhort more rituals and righteousness (such as, nawafil prayers);
to validate superstitions (such as, magic; worshiping the black stone near Kaba);
to prohibit certain things and actions (such as, prohibiting drawing animal and human figures, playing musical instruments, chess);
to import Jewish and Christian beliefs and practices (such as, death by stoning, circumcision, head scarf, hermitism, rosary);
to resurrect pre-islamic beliefs and practices common among Meccans (such as, intercession; slavery; tribalism; mysoginism);
to please crowds with stories (such as the story of Mirage (ascension to heaven) and bargaining for prayers);
to idolize Muhammad and claim his superiority to other messengers (such as, numerous miracles, including splitting the moon);
to defend hadith fabrications against monotheists (such as, condemning those who find the Quran alone sufficient); and even
to advertise products of a particular farm (such as, the benefits of dates grown in a town called Ajwa).
In addition to the above mentioned reasons, many hadith were fabricated to explain the meaning of the “difficult” Quranic words or phrases, or to distort the meaning of verses that contradicted the fabricated hadith, or to provide trivial information not mentioned in the Quran (such as, Saqar, 2:187; 8:35… )

Islam versus Hislam

Let’s first check the Quran and enumerate some of the characteristics of Islam, the system of peace, submission and surrender to God alone.

Islam

is not a proper name, but a descriptive noun coming from the Arabic root of surrendering/submission/peace, used by God to describe the system delivered by all His messengers and prophets (5:111; 10:72; 98:5), which reached another stage with Abraham (4:125; 22:78).
is surrendering to God alone (2:112,131; 4:125; 6:71; 22:34; 40:66).
is a system with universal principles, which are in harmony with nature (3:83; 33:30; 35:43).
requires objective evidence besides personal experience (3:86; 2:111; 21:24; 74:30).
demands conviction not based on wishful thinking or feelings, but based on reason and evidence (17:36; 4:174; 8:42; 10:100; 11:17; 74:30-31).
esteems knowledge, education, and learning (35:28; 4:162; 9:122; 22:54; 27:40; 29:44,49).
promotes scientific inquiry regarding the evolution of human kind on earth (29:20).
rejects clergymen and intermediaries between god and people (2:48; 9:31-34).
condemns profiteering from religion (9:34; 2:41,79,174; 5:44; 9:9).
stands for liberty, accountability, and defiance of false authorities. (6:164).
stands for freedom of expression (2:256; 18:29; 10:99; 88:21-22).
requires consultation and representation in public affairs (42:38; 5:12).
promotes a democratic system where participation of all citizens is encouraged and facilitated (58:11).
prohibits bribery, and requires strict rules against the influence of interest groups and corporations in government (2:188).
requires election of officials based on qualifications and principles of justice (4:58).
promises justice to everyone, regardless of their creed or ethnicity (5:8).
acknowledges the rights of citizens to publicly petition against injustices committed by individuals or government (4:148).
encourages the distribution of wealth, economic freedom and social welfare (2:215, 59:7).
promotes utmost respect to individuals (5:32).
relates the of the quality of a society to the quality of individuals comprising it (13:11).
recognizes and protects individual right’s to privacy (49:12).
recognizes the right to the presumption of innocence and right to confront the accuser (49:12).
provides protection for witnesses (2:282).
does not hold innocent people responsible for the crime of others (53:38).
protects right to personal property (2:85,188; 4:29; exception 24:29; 59:6-7).
discourages non-productive economy (2:275; 5:90; 3:130).
encourages charity and caring for the poor (6:141; 7:156).
unifies humanity by promoting gender and race equality. (49:13).
values women (3:195; 4:124; 16:97).
values intellect (5:90).
offers peace among nations (2:62; 2:135-136, 208).
considers the entire world belonging to all humanity and supports immigration (4:97-98).
promotes peace, while deterring the aggressive parties (60:8,9; 8:60).
pursues the golden-plated brazen rule of equivalence, that is, retaliation with occasional forgiveness (42:20; 17:33).
stands for human rights and the oppressed (4:75).
encourages competition in righteousness and morality. (16:90)
stands for peace, honesty, kindness, and deterring from wrong doing. (3:110)
expects high moral standards (25:63-76; 31:12-20; 23:1-11).
asks us to be in harmony with nature and environment (30:41).
teaches that the only system/law approved by god is Islam (3:19,85).



Best regards and peace.

[kmortis]

Um..is there a point here?

[Danhalen]

Real Islam is still a belief in fairy tales.

[slingblade]

Yup, sure is.

[SezMe]

Hey, I get to use a acronym I just learned: TLDR

[Hokulele]

To try and summarize the lengthy post, I think the OP is saying Quran=good, everything else=bad. The problem I have is with any text telling me I need to surrender and be submissive (as the quotes towards the end of the post suggest). I don't care who is requiring my surrender and submissiveness, any priest or any god, it ain't gonna happen.

[bignickel]

I've reported the post; googling reveals the same thing blasted across other boards (of course), but the original is evidently at http://www.islamicreform.org

Copyrighted? Maybe; the 'manifesto' page won't display properly so I can't be sure.

EDIT: was able to find a cache that says: "(Introduction of upcoming The Quran: A Reformist Translation)" If that's a book, then it's copyrighted, I warrant. And the poster hasn't ID'ed himself as the author.

[Kopji]

consider just for a tiny moment that it is all the work of people

[grayman]

Is it too late to mention that I like oatmeal cookies?

[Filippo Lippi]

We had an email around work the other day titled, "Approx. 1400 years ago." The text read something like, "... the Qu'ran was revealed. Also, this weekend my niece finished reading it for the first time. To celebrate this joyous event there are some goodies in the kitchen."

I didn't partake; I'd be OK with chowing down because some bloke got his mates to transcribe his thoughts, but not to celebrate a poor kid's first step on the road to indoctination. That ain't right.

[Emre_1974tr]

This is our manifesto.

Not copy.

[Hokulele]

And you are asking us to do what with it? Proof-read it? :confused:

[TriangleMan]

What's wierd about the OP is that I think it is directed at Muslims, not non-Muslims. Seems to ramble on about Muslims throught history distorting hadiths for their own ends and how Muslims should really read and understand the Qur'an instead of following religious leaders etc.

Why someone decided to post it here is beyond me, maybe he and Peace Crusader can meet up and keep each other busy.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

It is not clear what the provenance of that text is, or whether Emre holds the copyright. Emre, please make sure you do not quote large amounts of text copyrighted by someone else.

[Ossai]

grayman
Is it too late to mention that I like oatmeal cookies? with raisins?
It would be totally inappropriate without raisins.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

with raisins?
It would be totally inappropriate without raisins.
Oh please, no raisins. It's like putting beef in chile.

~~ Paul

[alfaniner]

I was bored after the first paragraph.

[Beerina]

He lists a bunch of peaceful and noble ideas, noting it's been twisted by the power hungry over the centuries.

In this it's like most other religions and political systems. But it's precisely these concepts that make it desireable to the masses, and then they follow someone blathering these ideas, which, meme-wise, was the whole purpose the ideas arose as an organized set to begin with -- to get people behind you, the new leader, who now has power and money from the followers.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Hello Emre Welcome to JREF. I might suggest that this is not the best place for you to do be doing dawah, and copy/pasting is not the best way to convince us here about Islam.

I for instance, have a great many questions about Islam, and the extent of your deity's knowledge. For example, why did Allah create the earth flat (79:30) ? Didn't he know the earth was not flat? There are many other issues with Allah's knowledge of the earth/universe/human body; other things that an omnipitent should know, and certainly the one who created it all.



Quran 079.030

YUSUFALI: And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);

PICKTHAL: And after that He spread the earth,

SHAKIR: And the earth, He expanded it after that.


Waal-arda baAAda thalika dahaha

وَالأرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِك دَحَاا هَا

دَحَا = daha= spread out , level off , level. The last ha = هَا in dahaha means this.

So why, during creation of this earth, would Allah daha this earth if it is not flat?



I guess what I'm asking is, why should we be convinced of Islam if there are so many errors in the Quran? ( I have only listed one, of course) Even one error is enough to invalidate the Quran, since the Quran is alleged by Muslims to be the perfect, unchanged and unchangeable word of your deity, Allah.

Quran 004.082

YUSUFALI: Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

PICKTHAL: Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.

SHAKIR: Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.


Without copy/pasting, would you be able to answer the problem of daha, for example; or why we should accept an error-filled book?


I look forward to your reply.

Peace be with you.
-JP

[hgc]

Is it too late to mention that I like oatmeal cookies?


But the point is does Mohammed like oatmeal cookies.

[Emre_1974tr]

Hello dear Jigsaw.

Quran never say "flat". This is wrong translation.

"30- He made the earth egg-shaped.
79-The Snatchers, 30

The Arabic word “dahw” means rotundity like that of the ostrich’s egg. The above verse was also interpreted to refer to the shaping of the earth in the form of an ostrich egg. Prof. Dr. Suleyman Atefl, former head of Religious Affairs in Turkey, gives the following definition of the word, based on the famous Arabic dictionary Lisan u’l Arab: “The word ‘dahw’ means to spread out, giving (something) a round shape.” The word “dahw” had also been defined as a game played with walnuts. Derived from the same stem, the word “medahi” referred to round stones. Despite the meaning of rotundity concealed in words derived from the word “dahw” there have been translators for whom a spherical earth was difficult to conceive, who had to translate it as “to spread out.” The actual shape of the earth does have the shape of an ostrich egg. Thus the shape of the earth is spheroid with depressions at the poles. The exact figure of the earth which had posed a problem throughout history was established by the Quran.

Even the books written a few centuries after the descent of the Quran likened the shape of the earth to a tray. Beliefs according to which the earth rested on the horns of an ox or was supported by a fish reigned over mentalities in the Arabic peninsula and many believed that earthquakes occurred when the fish down below waved its tail. The Prophet had no ocean-going ship to cross the earth from one extremity to the other, that would have supplied him with evidence proving the spheroid shape of the earth, nor had he a spacecraft from which he could have had an overall view of our world that would have provided him a photographic image of it, as he was not equipped with a camera. Our knowledge of the sphericity of the earth, which seems to us as an established fact, was then beyond the comprehension and imagination of the majority. Therefore, the Quran’s statement to this effect failed to be grasped. Men believed that the verse referred to the plenitude of the earth, ignoring the sense of rotundity.

Thus, at a time when most of the people believed in the shape of earth’s figure as a tray supported by an ox or fish, the Quran had beautifully described its actual shape. The fact that ostriches abounded in the Arabian Peninsula at the time must have permitted those who inquired into this mystery to hold an ostrich egg in their hands and examine it. The geoidal form is a gentle indication of this. The subtlety of the Quran’s expressions provides men with evidence.

174- O people! Verily there has come to you an infallible proof from your Lord. We have sent unto you a manifest light.
4-The Women, 174"

(From Quran Miracles Site)

Regards.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Hello dear Jigsaw.

Quran never say "flat". This is wrong translation.

"30- He made the earth egg-shaped.
79-The Snatchers, 30

The Arabic word “dahw” means rotundity like that of the ostrich’s egg. The above verse was also interpreted to refer to the shaping of the earth in the form of an ostrich egg. Prof. Dr. Suleyman Atefl, former head of Religious Affairs in Turkey, gives the following definition of the word, based on the famous Arabic dictionary Lisan u’l Arab: “The word ‘dahw’ means to spread out, giving (something) a round shape.” The word “dahw” had also been defined as a game played with walnuts. Derived from the same stem, the word “medahi” referred to round stones. Despite the meaning of rotundity concealed in words derived from the word “dahw” there have been translators for whom a spherical earth was difficult to conceive, who had to translate it as “to spread out.” The actual shape of the earth does have the shape of an ostrich egg. Thus the shape of the earth is spheroid with depressions at the poles. The exact figure of the earth which had posed a problem throughout history was established by the Quran.

Even the books written a few centuries after the descent of the Quran likened the shape of the earth to a tray. Beliefs according to which the earth rested on the horns of an ox or was supported by a fish reigned over mentalities in the Arabic peninsula and many believed that earthquakes occurred when the fish down below waved its tail. The Prophet had no ocean-going ship to cross the earth from one extremity to the other, that would have supplied him with evidence proving the spheroid shape of the earth, nor had he a spacecraft from which he could have had an overall view of our world that would have provided him a photographic image of it, as he was not equipped with a camera. Our knowledge of the sphericity of the earth, which seems to us as an established fact, was then beyond the comprehension and imagination of the majority. Therefore, the Quran’s statement to this effect failed to be grasped. Men believed that the verse referred to the plenitude of the earth, ignoring the sense of rotundity.

Thus, at a time when most of the people believed in the shape of earth’s figure as a tray supported by an ox or fish, the Quran had beautifully described its actual shape. The fact that ostriches abounded in the Arabian Peninsula at the time must have permitted those who inquired into this mystery to hold an ostrich egg in their hands and examine it. The geoidal form is a gentle indication of this. The subtlety of the Quran’s expressions provides men with evidence.

174- O people! Verily there has come to you an infallible proof from your Lord. We have sent unto you a manifest light.
4-The Women, 174"

(From Quran Miracles Site)

Regards.


Thanks for your really quick reply!

I have addressed the arabic (as well as provided translations for those who do not speak/read arabic). What is wrong with my arabic translation? It was from Lane's Lexicon of Quranic words and phrases.

So you say dahaha means egg-shaped?

Lets have a think about this. The only similarity that dahaha and duhiya have, is that they both come from the root word dahawa. duhiya is a noun and dahaha is a verb.

duhiya is also not a root word, thus dahaha cannot be derived from it in any way.



Now, onto the word you claim dahaha is based on (duhiya). I note you quote lisan-al arab




Dr. Suleyman Atefl, former head of Religious Affairs in Turkey, gives the following definition of the word, based on the famous Arabic dictionary Lisan u’l Arab: “The word ‘dahw’ means to spread out, giving (something) a round shape.



Note the phrase "based on" there? Lets have a look at what Lisan-Al- Arab actually says:





الأُدْحِيُّ و الإدْحِيُّ و الأُدْحِيَّة و الإدْحِيَّة و الأُدْحُوّة مَبِيض النعام في الرمل , وزنه أُفْعُول من ذلك , لأَن النعامة تَدْحُوه برِجْلها ثم تَبِيض فيه وليس للنعام عُشٌّ . و مَدْحَى النعام : موضع بيضها , و أُدْحِيُّها موضعها الذي تُفَرِّخ فيه .ِ


Translation: "Al-udhy, Al-idhy, Al-udhiyya, Al-idhiyya, Al-udhuwwa:

The place in sand where an ostrich lays its egg. That's because the ostrich spreads out the earth with its feet then lays its eggs there, an ostrich doesn't have a nest."





As to the meaning of dahaha, lets have a look at some arabic dictionaries:



(دَحَا): الله الأرضَ
(يَدْحُوهَا وَيَدْحَاهَا دَحْواً) بَسَطَها


Translation: "Allah daha the Earth: He spread it out."






دَحَا الشيءَ: بسطه ووسعه. يقال: دحا اللهُ الأَر

translation: "To daha something: means to spread it out. For example: Allah daha the Earth."






الدَّحْوُ البَسْطُ . دَحَا الأَرضَ يَدْحُوها دَحْواً بَسَطَها . وقال الفراء في قوله والأَرض بعد ذلك دَحاها قال : بَسَطَها ; قال شمر : وأَنشدتني أَعرابية : الحمدُ لله الذي أَطاقَا

بَنَى السماءَ فَوْقَنا طِباقَا

ثم دَحا الأَرضَ فما أَضاقا

قال شمر : وفسرته فقالت دَحَا الأَرضَ أَوْسَعَها ; وأَنشد ابن بري لزيد بن عمرو بن نُفَيْل : دَحَاها , فلما رآها اسْتَوَتْ

على الماء , أَرْسَى عليها الجِبالا

و دَحَيْتُ الشيءَ أَدْحاهُ دَحْياً بَسَطْته , لغة في دَحَوْتُه ; حكاها اللحياني . وفي حديث عليّ وصلاتهِ , اللهم دَاحِيَ المَدْحُوَّاتِ يعني باسِطَ الأَرَضِينَ ومُوَسِّعَها , ويروى ; دَاحِيَ المَدْحِيَّاتِ . و الدَّحْوُ البَسْطُ . يقال : دَحَا يَدْحُو و يَدْحَى أَي بَسَطَ ووسع



translation: "To daha the earth: means to spread it out." (followed by some poetry to give definitive proof as to the meaning of dahaha)






Lastly, the earth is not flat, egg-shaped or round. Its an oblate spheroid; it cannot be egg-shaped.




Conclusion:
1. I have shown from authentic Islamic sources (on Classical arabic) that daha does actually mean spread out.

2. I have correctly quoted Lisan Al Arab; of which your article gives a "based on" translation of what is written. The source (Lisan Al Arab) contradicts your article, and confirms what the other dictionaries are saying regarding daha.

3. duhiya actually means the place where an ostrich lays her egg and not egg-shaped as your article says.

4. The Earth is not egg-shaped or flat, so the Quran is still wrong.



I guess my question still stands. How can we trust the Quran if it has such an obvious error in it? It clearly says the earth is flat! You need to address your Islamic sources ( I have provided above) in order to derive a different meaning.


Thanks and peace be with you

-JP

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Jigsaw;

You are wrong. World is not perfect sphere, not like a soccer ball. World is a GEOIDAL.

So "like egg" is best data "in all ages". An egg is like a sphere, but geoidal sphere.

Look at an "ostrich egg". This is Quran Miracle.

Wrong translations giving you wrong datas. Example according to Quran we haven't got "souls". But you read wrong translations and you are thinking to "we have got soul-ghost."But This is wrong too. Soul beliving is a pagan beliving. Like monks, saints, dervishes, reencarnation and other pagan belivings. According to Quran we will be in paradise or hell "with bodies" only again(at another world).

Regards.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Dear Jigsaw;

You are wrong. World is not perfect sphere, not like a soccer ball. World is a GEOIDAL.

I never said the earth was a "perfect sphere". In fact I said it wasn't round. It is closest to an oblate spheroid. Here, from Wiki:



The Earth's shape is very close to an oblate spheroid—a rounded shape with a bulge around the equator—although the precise shape (the geoid) varies from this by up to 100 metres (327 ft).

So although the 'shape' of the earth is classified a 'geoid' it is not denotive of a shape - much less an egg-shape. The earth, as stated above, is closest to an oblate spheroid (like a squashed sphere). It cannot be classified as exactly this or that because it is not a uniform shape. But again, as stated above, oblate spheroid is the closest.

You are thinking of oblate ellipsoid.


So "like egg" is best data "in all ages". An egg is like a sphere, but geoidal sphere.

Look at an "ostrich egg". This is Quran Miracle.

I've already shown you that daha does not mean egg shaped, and neither does duhiya. neither mean egg-shaped.


Wrong translations giving you wrong datas.


I'm not dealing with a translation. I am dealing with the arabic here. This is the original language of the Quran. According to Muslims, uncorrupted and uncorruptable..

Can you address the arabic as I have? If not, then I have to accept you have no answer. I have quoted authentic arabic sources for you (as well as the arabic) please address it.


Example according to Quran we haven't got "souls". But you read wrong translations and you are thinking to "we have got soul-ghost."But This is wrong too. Soul beliving is a pagan beliving. Like monks, saints, dervishes, reencarnation and other pagan belivings. According to Quran we will be in paradise or hell "with bodies" only again(at another world).

Regards.

Your last point is a red herring and is not relevant to the conversation.

I again state that the Quran says the earth is "spread out" (ie. flat). Why does it say this? Remember, I am using the arabic, not a translation.


Thanks and peace

-JP

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear friend, ask this an Arab.

He-she will show you what is dahw. My atheist friends look at a lot of dictionaries and they belive to "Quran saying world has hot a egg shape" now.

And they are "hard non-belivers" .

According Quran world has got ostrich's egg form.

And look at this second:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"DIAMETERS OF THE EARTH AND SPACE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=41

(From Quran Miracles site)


Regards.


Edited for breach of rule 4, and link added to article. In the future, either only publish excerpts (giving credit) or if you wish to use the entire article, post a link as I did above.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Dear friend, ask this an Arab.

Oh okay so you don't know? That is fine thank you for trying anyway.


He-she will show you what is dahw. My atheist friends look at a lot of dictionaries and they belive to "Quran saying world has hot a egg shape" now.

Yes I have asked many arabs and classical arabic speakers; both Muslim and non-Muslims and they all agree that these translations that I have provided to you are the correct ones.

As I have stated, daha means spread out. Allah spread out this earth during creation. ie. it is flat.

But anyway.



And they are "hard non-belivers" .

Atheists are? I am not an atheist. But no, Atheists, as well as I do, require solid evidence in order to believe. No evidence, no belief, you know?



According Quran world has got ostrich's egg form.

I've shown you this is not the case.


And look at this second:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"DIAMETERS OF THE EARTH AND SPACE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=41

(From Quran Miracles site)


Regards.

Thank you for this article, however it is not what we are discussing in this thread at this point. Perhaps we can discuss it later?


Anyway, my main point is that there are many problems with the Quran; both errors and such things that are not considered moral/ethical at this time. If Muhammad is the best example, and the Quran is the "best way" of doing things, why would Allah not account for the shift in values? everything in the Quran reflects the customs/norms. of Arabia 1450 years ago.

Why do we follow a book with archaic morals/customs and so many errors in it? The quran itself says that if it were from someone other than Allah, surely we would find much erros/contradictions within it. To our knowledge today, we find them!

Shall we still accept Islam even though the Quran proves it to be false?


Thank you for your time; I appreciate it. Peace be with you my friend :)

-JP

[Emre_1974tr]

No dear friend. An Arab never say "this saying flat". Because Quran saying "like egg".İ showed you this.

Quran never has got mistake. :) Because it is from God.

You can see it(mistakes) in Bible or other "changed books". But in Quran never.

Don't afraid datas and asking this realy. Look an Arabian saying this:

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرحمنِ الرحيم
The explanation: (In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.)
God - be exalted – revealed the Glorious Quran in Arabic; because the apostle was one of the Arab, and his people were the Arab. But the religion came to all the world and all nations.
The Quran is the word of God; it is superior to any creature: it is superior to the apostle to whom it was revealed, who was asked about some Quranic revelations or ayat, and he said: "I don't know; God knows best about its true meaning! I merely heard it from the angel as such!"
The Quran is superior even to the angel Gabriel who conveyed it to Prophet Mohammed - peace be on him. It is superior to the generation of the people of the Prophet and the following generations: even to the twentieth and the twenty-first centuries and the following centuries; because simply it is the word of God - be exalted. Each generation will understand something of this glorious knowledge, and will, by time, discover many secrets and deep meaning that may be discovered later on.
An example of that is the Quranic aya 39: 5 where God - be exalted – said:
(يُكَوِّرُ اللّيْلَ عَلى النّهارِ و يُكَوِّرُ النَّهارَ عَلَى اللّيْلِ)
The explanation: (He makes the night spherical on the day, and makes the day spherical on the night)
This one miraculous Arabic word يُكَوِّر declares obviously that the earth is spherical; because the outer space is dark, and the daylight process only occurs in the upper atmospheric layer, and will take the spherical shape of the earth. At present, we understand the meaning of the aya in this way, but the ancient Arabs and Muslims understood it as: the day and night are wound around each other!
That is because the Quran consists of two categories:
1. The Muhkam, i.e. the revelations with obvious meaning,
2. and the Mutashabih, i.e. the revelations with mysterious meaning like the letters at the beginning of some soora's (or chapters) and many other ayat or revelations with scientific meaning and some other ayat of the Quran that constitute a challenge to all mankind to solve such puzzles, or to bring about one aya similar to the Quran: which they never did, nor will they do. And God - be exalted – declared that eventhough all the man-kind and the genie-kind united and cooperated with each other to bring about an analogue of the Quran, they will never be able to achieve that.
Therefore, the Quran is in Arabic; because it is the word of God, but the translation is the word of the translator according to his understanding and linguistic capability; which will never be the Quran; but only a translation of its interpretation and explanation in any language. In other words the translator will translate the meaning of the Quran, but he cannot translate the Quran itself.
For this reason, the Quranic revelation or aya should be mentioned as it is in Arabic, and may be accompanied by the translation of its meaning in English or in any other language; lest the reader should not think that the English words are the Quran, when in fact they are the word of the translator and it is only the translation of the meaning.
Therefore, it is a must that the aya of the Quran should be mentioned in Arabic, accompanied by its explanation in English, or any other language.
E. A. Nassir

And again look at this:

Arabic dictionary Lisan u’l Arab: “The word ‘dahw’ means to spread out, giving (something) a round shape.” The word “dahw” had also been defined as a game played with walnuts. Derived from the same stem, the word “medahi” referred to round stones. Despite the meaning of rotundity concealed in words derived from the word “dahw” there have been translators for whom a spherical earth was difficult to conceive, who had to translate it as “to spread out.” The actual shape of the earth does have the shape of an ostrich egg. Thus the shape of the earth is spheroid with depressions at the poles. The exact figure of the earth which had posed a problem throughout history was established by the Quran.



According to Quran World has ostrich egg form.

Regards. :)

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

No dear friend. An Arab never say "this saying flat". Because Quran saying "like egg".İ showed you this.


I didn't say they said "The Quran says the earth is flat". They said my translation was correct. That daha does actually mean "Spread out" and in context the earth in the Quran is flat.

This is what they have said: Muslims and non-Muslim Classical arabic speakers. You are one of the only to differ and you have not offered me your literal translation nor have you addressed any of the authentic islamic dictionaries that I have presented you with. The arabic is right there.



Quran never has got mistake. :) Because it is from God.

Yes I am aware of the Muslim claim regarding this. That is why I am asking you why the Quran says the earth is flat. And this is also why you are vehemently denying it.



You can see it(mistakes) in Bible or other "changed books". But in Quran never.

You Muslims keep saying the bible was corrupted, and originally contained the message of the Quran, but you are unable to present any evidence whatsoever to back up your claim. A partial manuscript? A hint of Islam, Allah or "Submission" before Muhammad opened his mouth? None, you know? It is very suspicious that everything came about with Muhammad, and not one single person before him had ever heard of Allah, Islam, Jibriel, etc..


According to Quran World has ostrich egg form.

Regards. :)

Sorry I cut off your article there was it is not applicable to Quran 79:30 which we are discussing at this point. Again, Quran 79:30 tells us that Allah created the world by spreading it out. daha - Spread out, Level out, Level off, Level ha - this so Sprad out this or Level out this.

Thats the whole point. If the Quran contains no errors or changes, then Allah created the earth by spreading it out. You may twist any other verse that you want, but if you do not address the wealth of authentic Islamic information that I have presented (as well as the arabic) then it is obvious that you are just avoiding the issue, and attempting to sidetrack me onto another issue in order to avoid answering what I have presented.

As I have said, the Quran contains many other errors; I am just focussing on one specific problem.


Thanks and peace

-JP

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

And again look at this:

Arabic dictionary Lisan u’l Arab: “The word ‘dahw’ means to spread out, giving (something) a round shape.” The word “dahw” had also been defined as a game played with walnuts. Derived from the same stem, the word “medahi” referred to round stones. Despite the meaning of rotundity concealed in words derived from the word “dahw” there have been translators for whom a spherical earth was difficult to conceive, who had to translate it as “to spread out.” The actual shape of the earth does have the shape of an ostrich egg. Thus the shape of the earth is spheroid with depressions at the poles. The exact figure of the earth which had posed a problem throughout history was established by the Quran.



According to Quran World has ostrich egg form.

Regards. :)


Sorry, you added the above bit in edit while I was replying.

As I have already shown you I have given you the original text from Lisan Al Arab regarding both duhiya and daha. Here it is again:






الأُدْحِيُّ و الإدْحِيُّ و الأُدْحِيَّة و الإدْحِيَّة و الأُدْحُوّة مَبِيض النعام في الرمل , وزنه أُفْعُول من ذلك , لأَن النعامة تَدْحُوه برِجْلها ثم تَبِيض فيه وليس للنعام عُشٌّ . و مَدْحَى النعام : موضع بيضها , و أُدْحِيُّها موضعها الذي تُفَرِّخ فيه .ِ


Translation: "Al-udhy, Al-idhy, Al-udhiyya, Al-idhiyya, Al-udhuwwa:

The place in sand where an ostrich lays its egg. That's because the ostrich spreads out the earth with its feet then lays its eggs there, an ostrich doesn't have a nest."



Please note the underlining there. Your source keeps claiming that Lisan Al Arab states that daha means to 'spread out into an egg shape'. Reading the original source above, it is Lisan Al Arab is CLEAR on what it means. The Ostrich spreads out the earth with its feet and lays its eggs there. There is absolutely no mention of forming an 'egg shape' nor any other 3D shape. The writer of your article has 'added on' to what Lisan Al Arab actually said, and blatantly omitted the part that is contradictory to what he is saying.

Lian Al Arab contradicts your article.

And now daha:




الدَّحْوُ البَسْطُ . دَحَا الأَرضَ يَدْحُوها دَحْواً بَسَطَها . وقال الفراء في قوله والأَرض بعد ذلك دَحاها قال : بَسَطَها ; قال شمر : وأَنشدتني أَعرابية : الحمدُ لله الذي أَطاقَا

بَنَى السماءَ فَوْقَنا طِباقَا

ثم دَحا الأَرضَ فما أَضاقا

قال شمر : وفسرته فقالت دَحَا الأَرضَ أَوْسَعَها ; وأَنشد ابن بري لزيد بن عمرو بن نُفَيْل : دَحَاها , فلما رآها اسْتَوَتْ

على الماء , أَرْسَى عليها الجِبالا

و دَحَيْتُ الشيءَ أَدْحاهُ دَحْياً بَسَطْته , لغة في دَحَوْتُه ; حكاها اللحياني . وفي حديث عليّ وصلاتهِ , اللهم دَاحِيَ المَدْحُوَّاتِ يعني باسِطَ الأَرَضِينَ ومُوَسِّعَها , ويروى ; دَاحِيَ المَدْحِيَّاتِ . و الدَّحْوُ البَسْطُ . يقال : دَحَا يَدْحُو و يَدْحَى أَي بَسَطَ ووسع



translation: "To daha the earth: means to spread it out." (followed by some poetry to give definitive proof as to the meaning of dahaha)




As I said, I have provided these before, as well as other Classical Arabic definitions for daha (please read my original post on this).

You are relying on a corruption of Lisan Al Arab for your interpretation (the person "based" their interpretation on what Lisan Al Arab says). I have given you the original quote.


Thanks and peace

-JP

[Skeptic Guy]

To try and summarize the lengthy post, I think the OP is saying Quran=good, everything else=bad. The problem I have is with any text telling me I need to surrender and be submissive (as the quotes towards the end of the post suggest). I don't care who is requiring my surrender and submissiveness, any priest or any god, it ain't gonna happen.

Now it depends on what particular role-playing you are doing and if you have a clear "stop phrase". ;)

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Jigsay;

İ am saying you, don't afraid from real datas and ask this, look at dictionaries.

Quran saying world has got ostrich egg form.

You can't change this real data :)

And , yes Allah word in all ages.Becasue İslam is first religion with Adam. When prophets die, after, peoples changing religion-book.

Until Quran. Only Quran saved until Big Crunch(doomsday)

Yes don't afraid my friend. Look at, Allah saying our world is like sphere (ostrich egg).

You never find a mistake Quran. But you can find a lot of mistakes and comedies at Bible and other changed books(Torah,Zebur vs....)

And look at and Ostrich Egg, this is Quran miracle really.

Regards :)

[slingblade]

Actually, it's all horse dung. Wait, no....horse dung is at least useful. All right, then it's all less than horse dung.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Dear Jigsay;

İ am saying you, don't afraid from real datas and ask this, look at dictionaries.

Quran saying world has got ostrich egg form.

You can't change this real data :)


I'm not changing the data.

Do you speak/read Arabic? I am thinking you don't (but that is fine). I am showing you what Classical Arabic experts and Islamic Scholars are telling you daha means but you refuse to accept it. What can I do? I have presented the evidence, yet you keep insisting that I am wrong despite all the evidence I have provided.

I am thinking you are doing the ostrich act now and burying your head on the sand am I right? hehe



And , yes Allah word in all ages.Becasue İslam is first religion with Adam. When prophets die, after, peoples changing religion-book.

Are there any surviving manuscripts or documents that show this? Any archaelogical evidence to show this? Anything at all? I have asked many Muslims for proof of this, but none can provide it for me.


Until Quran. Only Quran saved until Big Crunch(doomsday)

Because the Quran is on the Preserved Tablet in Jannat, right? But you forget that every event, everything, every single thing that ever was, and ever will be is on the "preserved tablet" as well, you know?

Therefore the Quran cannot be afforded anymore reliability than the Taurat/Injeel or Moby Dick!

Why did Allah allow the Taurat/Injeel to be corrupted, but save the Quran from Corruption? IF they all contained the same message, why not keep the first from being corrupted? It would save a lot of effort, you know?


Yes don't afraid my friend. Look at, Allah saying our world is like sphere (ostrich egg).

No, you have provided no evidence and ignored evidence. At this stage I cannot accept this statement.


You never find a mistake Quran.

You came here for Dawah. You want us to accept the Quran and Islam. This is fine, however, you should be able to answer for all the errors and contradictions in the Quran. I have only addressed one problem with the Quran and you have not answered it. Can you ask your imam about 79:30 for me? Perhaps he will tell which of us is right?


But you can find a lot of mistakes and comedies at Bible and other changed books(Torah,Zebur vs....)

We aren't discussing the Bible ; that makes your attempt at this Tu Quoque. However, the Quran is (alleged) to be the literal, unchanged and unchangeable, perfect word of Allah. The Bible is not considered to be such. It is considered 'inspired' so a comparison is not fitting.

Second off, you would have to address the original language of the bible to show us errors since the arabic of the Quran contains errors (ie. I have not relied on English translations to show you this error so far).


And look at and Ostrich Egg, this is Quran miracle really.

Regards :)


heh. I have already discussed this repeatedly. If you will not accept the word of your own scholars (the original quotes not the corruptions) then I cannot help you until you accept what they have to say.


Thanks and peace

-JP

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Jigsaw;

you will learn,(if you don't afraid from data) dahw is ostrich egg. You will look at Lisan u’l Arab more careful, asking arab friends and you will be in real datas :)

Dahw= ostrich egg

Second;

Only Quran saved because it is last book.

God saved some prophets from enemies, but some prophets killed by enemies too, isn't it? God can saved all prophets but God don't do this.

And God can save all books, but saved only Quran.

Because this is test world.

God can make us in paradise direct.But God wants "test life" before.

So you can see a lot of mistakes and contrasts at bible and others.

But in Quran never.

Quran giving you science and datas. Like ostrich egg miracle.

Only quran gives you real 1 God beliving(not 3 in 1, not 33333 in 1"hindus")

İn real islam no imams, no holy men, no saints, no monks, no souls. These are pagan belivings.

Only in Quran you can see real monoteism and datas(like ostrich egg form world)

Regards and peace :)

[NotJesus]

Oh please, no raisins. It's like putting beef in chile.

There's plenty of beef in Chile.

If you meant 'chili,' I'm afraid I'm still not with you.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Dear Jigsaw;

you will learn,(if you don't afraid from data) dahw is ostrich egg. You will look at Lisan u’l Arab more careful, asking arab friends and you will be in real datas :)

Dahw= ostrich egg


I have already:
1. Discussed this issue with Arabs and Classical Arabic Speakers. They all agree that daha means 'spread out' and in context Allah is saying he created the earth flat.

2. Shown you the original quote from Lisan Al Arab that proves that the author of your article has misquoted in order to suit his purpose.

3. neither daha or duhiya mean egg-shaped.

4. Noted your switch from duhiya (you claimed THAT was the correct word) to dahaha again.

Just give it up or admit that I and all your own scholars and arabic experts are correct in their unanimous translation of daha.



Second;

Only Quran saved because it is last book.

God saved some prophets from enemies, but some prophets killed by enemies too, isn't it? God can saved all prophets but God don't do this.

And God can save all books, but saved only Quran.

Because this is test world.

I get a little tired of that excuse. Where does it say that all prophets were tested? Why is it fair that Isa was saved from execution, and a "lookalike" man put in his place?

Why should an innocent man die in Isa's place?



God can make us in paradise direct.But God wants "test life" before.

Because your omnipotent deity does not know who is a "true Muslim"? What is the purpose of "testing" people? Doesn't he know everything already?


So you can see a lot of mistakes and contrasts at bible and others.

We aren't talking about the Bible.


But in Quran never.

I have already shown you one and there are many many more. But since you will not see the simple truth about the one I have presented, I do not see much point in going over others with you. This is okay.


Quran giving you science and datas. Like ostrich egg miracle.

I've already shown you that the Quran does not say that.


Only quran gives you real 1 God beliving(not 3 in 1, not 33333 in 1"hindus")

hindus? You going for the Tu Quoque trifecta? hehehe funny :)


İn real islam no imams, no holy men, no saints, no monks, no souls. These are pagan belivings.

No imams you say? What sect of Islam are you? Sunni , Shia, Submittor, Wahabbi, Salafi? Just curious :)


Only in Quran you can see real monoteism and datas(like ostrich egg form world)


Regards and peace :)
hehe you keep going back to it although I have proven you to be incorrect (as well have your own scholars).


Ahhh what can I do, eh?

Peace

-JP

[Cactus Wren]

To try and summarize the lengthy post, I think the OP is saying Quran=good, everything else=bad.

More precisely, one particular interpretation of the Qu'ran=good, everything else including all other interpretations=bad.

Edip Yüksel, the person to whom the text in the OP is attributed, has his homepage here (http://www.yuksel.org/).

He also has some articles here (http://19.org/index.php?edip), at an organization called "19.org".

A SMALL taste of what you're getting yourself into:

* The first verse, i.e., the opening statement "Bismillahirrahmanirrahim", shortly "Basmalah," consists of 19 Arabic letters.
* The first word of Basmalah, Ism (name), withouth conraction, occurs in the Quran 19 times.
* The second word of Basmalah, Allah (God) occurs 2698 times, or 19x142.
* The third word of Basmalah, Rahman (Gracious) occurs 57 times, or 19x3.
* The fourth word of Basmalah, Rahim (Merciful) occurs 114 times, or 19x6.
Although this phenomenon (the opening statement consists of 19 letters, and each word occurs in multiple of 19) represents a minute portion of the code, it was described by Martin Gardner in the Scientific American as "ingenious" (September, 1981, p. 22-24)
* The multiplication factors of the words of the Basmalah (1+142+3+6) add up to 152 or 19x8.
* The Quran consists of 114 chapters, which is 19x6.
* The total number of verses in the Quran including all unnumbered Basmalahs is 6346, or 19x334. If you add the digits of that number, 6+3+4+6 equals 19.
* The Basmalah occurs 114 times, (despite its conspicuous absence from chapter 9, it occurs twice in chapter 27) and 114 is 19x6.
* From the missing Basmalah of chapter 9 to the extra Basmalah of chapter 27, there are precisely 19 chapters.
* The occurrence of the extra Basmalah is in 27:30. The number of the chapter and the verse add up to 57, or 19x3.

:eek: :boggled: Good luck. Have fun.

[Hokulele]

More precisely, one particular interpretation of the Qu'ran=good, everything else including all other interpretations=bad.

Edip Yüksel, the person to whom the text in the OP is attributed, has his homepage here (http://www.yuksel.org/).

He also has some articles here (http://19.org/index.php?edip), at an organization called "19.org".

A SMALL taste of what you're getting yourself into:

:eek: :boggled: Good luck. Have fun.


Wonderful, a Quranic numerologist. Has this guy met DJJ or Jiri yet?

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear friend Jigsaw;

dahw= ostrich egg,

İ asked this arabs and arabic speakers. And i look at our dictionaries. Dahw=ostrich egg.

And look at Reshad Khalifa's translation:

[79:30] He made the earth egg-shaped.

And look at Edip Yüksel and other some translations.

İf you asked an Arab "waht is dahw" and "which word is i ostrich egg in your language", Arabic speaker will tell you real data. Don't afraid, don't panic. Dahw=ostrich egg.

Second, yes God knowing all things. And God in all "time spots". İn future , in past, and in "now" time spot . But God giving as "an example" test . Showing us to "are we bad or good". This is symbolic test world.

Good peoples going to paradise in another world. But they have got some sins. İn this world you can pay "this little sins"

Bad peoples going to hell in another world. But bad persons have got some good diarrhea too. So thay can take some good things in this world.

Yes this is symbolic test and "pay-take" world too.

İ am not a sunni or shia or alevi or others.

İ am only and only muslim. No sect.

Like Muhammed, like David, like Jesus, like Solomon......

Real islam is very different and in Quran only.

You can find a lot of real miracles like Ostrich egg in Quran.

Best regards and peace. :)

[Tanstaafl]

I was considering getting some popcorn and settling in for the show, but you folks really need to expand this beyond this one dead-horse issue of the shape of the earth.

This show is just not popcorn-worthy yet.

There must be plenty of other passages to argue about.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

More precisely, one particular interpretation of the Qu'ran=good, everything else including all other interpretations=bad.

Edip Yüksel, the person to whom the text in the OP is attributed, has his homepage here (http://www.yuksel.org/).

He also has some articles here (http://19.org/index.php?edip), at an organization called "19.org".

A SMALL taste of what you're getting yourself into:

:eek: :boggled: Good luck. Have fun.

Thank you Cactus! I can't believe I missed that! This means that hte OP'er is part of a heretical sect of Islam known as the Submittors (considered by the majority of Muslims).

Their version of Islam centres around the numerical 'miracles' of the Quran (ie. they claim that the word month is mentioned 12 times, the word day 365 or somesuch) all adding up to miracle after miracle!! whoopeee eh?

However they use their own translations of the Quran in order to come up with these "miracles" hehe.

Also there is this site on Edip Yuksel:

http://www.yuksel.org/


An more interesting meander down the path that is Islam if I do say so myself!! hehe

-JP

[Foster Zygote]

Doubts about the spheroid structure of the world were dispelled by the law of gravitation of Newton (1642-1724). Previously it was believed that men, the living beings and the seas beneath the surface of the earth would have fallen down had the world been a sphere. Isaac Newton’s law of gravitation convinced men that their belief was false. Objections to the sphericity of the world were henceforth withdrawn, although many people still adhered to their former convictions.
This is completely wrong. Isaac Newton did not settle the issue of the shape of the Earth. No reasonably educated contemporary of Newton's could have expressed doubt that the Earth was not flat and been taken seriously. Understanding of the nature of the Earth's shape goes back as far as Vajnavalkya in the 8th century B.C.E. Pythagoras, Plato and Aristotle all believed the Earth to be round based on the evidence they observed. Eratosthenes made a reasonably accurate calculation of the Earth's size around 240 B.C.E. Ptolemy wrote an eight volume work on the Earth around 150 C.E. All of this learning was known well in advance of the writing of the Quran, let alone Isaac Newton, so even if the Quran does refer to the Earth as being round this would hardly be evidence of divine revelation.

If you spoke of “diameters” of the earth, Newton would have corrected you saying: “the diameter of the earth.”
A source for this would be welcomed.

CONFINES OF SPACE
What confines? At the time the Quran was written many educated people, including those who were mentioned above, thought that the sun, moon and planets were set in concentric crystal spheres about the Earth and that the stars were set in an outermost sphere. This might explain a reference to the "diameters and confines" of the heavens you mention. Look at "Diameters of the heavens and the Earth". "Heavens" is plural, Earth is not. The verse could refer to a single diameter for the Earth, but we would not know as it also includes the multiple diameters of the heavens. Unless you can provide a reference that specifically refers to the Earth alone having multiple diameters I don't think you've proved anything.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

I was considering getting some popcorn and settling in for the show, but you folks really need to expand this beyond this one dead-horse issue of the shape of the earth.

This show is just not popcorn-worthy yet.

There must be plenty of other passages to argue about.

haha absolutely! However if you note that Emre will not even accept the authority of his own scholars/arabic experts on the meaning of the words. How far do you think I will get discussing other issues?

Here are (just) a handful of other issues regarding the "perfect" word of the all-knowing deity!:

1. Inheritance in the Quran, if everyone is there who can collect, adds up to 27/24's
2. The Quran is a geocentric book
3. Semen is produced between the ribs and backbone
4. The Quran condones paedophilia
5. Humans are made from "blood clots"
6. The Sun sets in a muddy pond
7. The Christian Trinity consists of Allah, Jesus and Maryam (Mary)
8. Every species of every living creature is created in pairs.
9. Mountains are "pegs" that stabilize the earth's crust.


There are just some of the factual problems with the Quran (there are many more). The Quran also has many other issues, specifically dealing with the treatment of women and non-Muslims that I take issue with, but Emre, if you wish to discuss any of the issues that I have listed above, or one that I have not mentioned, feel free to post and let me know, okay?

Thanks

-JP

[Foster Zygote]

I was considering getting some popcorn and settling in for the show, but you folks really need to expand this beyond this one dead-horse issue of the shape of the earth.

This show is just not popcorn-worthy yet.

There must be plenty of other passages to argue about.

*SPOILER WARNING* If you don't want to know how this thread ends read no further.




Don't worry. There are some car chases and a train wreck on the way. And at the end we'll blow up an orbital death-ray battle station.

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Foster, Aztecs or other old peoples knowing world is Geoid. But in Muhammed Prophet age, peoples beliving different.

Quran say world has got egg from. This is miracle. Because arabs beliving reverse(and europians too).

Quran words of God.

So you can find in it, confines of space, world And you can find other universes, black holes, pulsars and others...

Regards.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Dear friend Jigsaw;

dahw= ostrich egg,

Nope.


İ asked this arabs and arabic speakers. And i look at our dictionaries. Dahw=ostrich egg.

What? in the few hours we have been conversing? What qualifications do you have to deny all your own scholars and arabic experts?



And look at Reshad Khalifa's translation:

[79:30] He made the earth egg-shaped.

And look at Edip Yüksel and other some translations.


Whoops You HAD to mention Rashid Khalifa, didn't you?

The Quran is unchanged yes? Therefore it would be exactly the same was it was in Muhammad's day, yes?

So why did Rashid Khalifa drop two verses out of the Quran and add his own name in there??

You see, the reason Rashid had to throw out all the hadith as trash and rewrite the Quran was because the hadith and previous Quran clearly state that Muhammad is the Final Messenger the "Seal of the Prophets." But no, Rashid couldn't have that.

So he dumped the hadith as "garbage" and rewrote the Quran.

Here, have a look at some of Rashid's translation of the Quran, along with Shakir's translation (for example):


Quran 13:30

Rashid : We have sent you (O Rashad) to this community, just as we did for other communities in the past. You shall recite to them what we reveal to you, for they have disbelieved in the Most Gracious. Say, "He is my Lord. There is no god except He. I put my trust in Him alone; to Him is my ultimate destiny."


Shakir And thus We have sent you among a nation before which other nations have passed away, that you might recite to them what We have revealed to you and (still) they deny the Beneficent Allah. Say: He is my Lord, there is no god but He; on Him do I rely and to Him is my return.:


Quran 13:38

Rashid: We have sent messengers before you (O Rashad), and we made them husbands with wives and children. No messenger can produce a miracle without GOD's authorization, and in accordance with a specific, predetermined time.

Shakir: And certainly We sent messengers before you and gave them wives and children, and it is not in (the power of) an messenger to bring a sign except by Allah's permission; for every term there is an appointment.


Quran 25:56

Rashid: We have sent you (Rashad) as a deliverer of good news, as well as a warner.

Shakir: And We have not sent you but as a giver of good news and as a warner.



Quran 34:28

Rashid: We have sent you (O Rashad) to all the people, a bearer of good news, as well as a warner, but most people do not know.

Shakir: And We have not sent you but to all the men as a bearer of good news and as a warner, but most men do not know.

Quran 34:46

Rashid: Say, "I ask you to do one thing: Devote yourselves to GOD, in pairs or as individuals, then reflect. Your friend (Rashad) is not crazy. He is a manifest warner to you, just before the advent of a terrible retribution."

Shakir: Say: I exhort you only to one thing, that rise up for Allah's sake in twos and singly, then ponder: there is no madness in your fellow-citizen; he is only a warner to you before a severe chastisement.

Quran 36:3

Rashid: Most assuredly, you (Rashad) are one of the messengers.

Shakir: Most surely you are one of the messengers

Quran 42:24

Rashid: Are they saying, "He (Rashad) has fabricated lies about GOD!"? If GOD willed, He could have sealed your mind, but GOD erases the falsehood and affirms the truth with His words. He is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.

Shakir: Or do they say: He has forged a lie against Allah? But if Allah pleased, He would seal your heart; and Allah will blot out the falsehood and confirm the truth with His words; surely He is Cognizant of what is in the breasts.

Quran 81:22

Rashid: Your friend (Rashad) is not crazy.

Shakir: And your companion is not gone mad.


If the Quran that you read (Khalifa translation) is unchaged from Muhammad's day, then Rashid Khalifa's name should not be in there. Of course it was Muhammad who revelaed the entire Quran; thus any references to "him" (lower case) "the messenger" or "your companion" etc... are all about Muhammad, not Rashid Khalifa.

But Khalifa's name is in the Khalifa translation. So what's the conclusion?




İf you asked an Arab "waht is dahw" and "which word is i ostrich egg in your language", Arabic speaker will tell you real data. Don't afraid, don't panic. Dahw=ostrich egg.

You are the one who is panicking here. I have presented the evidence; all you do is deny it.



Second, yes God knowing all things. And God in all "time spots". İn future , in past, and in "now" time spot . But God giving as "an example" test . Showing us to "are we bad or good". This is symbolic test world.

Good peoples going to paradise in another world. But they have got some sins. İn this world you can pay "this little sins"

Bad peoples going to hell in another world. But bad persons have got some good diarrhea too. So thay can take some good things in this world.

Yes this is symbolic test and "pay-take" world too.

İ am not a sunni or shia or alevi or others.

İ am only and only muslim. No sect.

Actually silly me. I just realised you are a Submittor. Muhammad said that anyone who innovates the Religion or Quran after him is NOT going to be in paradise. You are following Rashid Khalifa and Edip Yuksel (19'ers) and they innovated the heck out of both!



Like Muhammed, like David, like Jesus, like Solomon......

Real islam is very different and in Quran only.

You can find a lot of real miracles like Ostrich egg in Quran.

Best regards and peace. :)


Oh no! Someone tell me how to get him off the Ostrich egg thing LOL!!

-JP

[Foster Zygote]

Dear Foster, Aztecs or other old peoples knowing world is Geoid. But in Muhammed Prophet age, peoples beliving different.
Evidence supporting this claim would be welcomed.

Quran say world has got egg from. This is miracle. Because arabs beliving reverse(and europians too).

[Foster Zygote]

Sorry, I meant to post both images.

[strathmeyer]

Oh please, no raisins. It's like putting beef in chile.

I'm willing to accept this line of reasoning as long as we agree that would be like putting rice, beans, or corn in our chili.

[Cactus Wren]

Thank you Cactus! I can't believe I missed that! This means that hte OP'er is part of a heretical sect of Islam known as the Submittors (considered by the majority of Muslims). Not quite: according to his Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edip_Yuksel), Yüksel broke with United Submitters International within the past few years.

Their version of Islam centres around the numerical 'miracles' of the Quran (ie. they claim that the word month is mentioned 12 times, the word day 365 or somesuch) all adding up to miracle after miracle!! whoopeee eh?

However they use their own translations of the Quran in order to come up with these "miracles" hehe.

Also there is this site on Edip Yuksel:

http://www.yuksel.org/


An more interesting meander down the path that is Islam if I do say so myself!! hehe

-JP

That's one of the wonders of arithmetic: if you put enough numbers into a bag and shake really hard, eventually some of the things that come out will look like patterns.

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Jigsaw, Rashad and Edip has got some mistakes too of course. İ speaking at forums with Edip and i am changing his some thinkings.

Quran never changed and Muhammed is last prophet.

Regards.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Dear Jigsaw, Rashad and Edip has got some mistakes too of course. İ speaking at forums with Edip and i am changing his some thinkings.

Oh cool! Like what things?




Quran never changed and Muhammed is last prophet.

How can you say Muhammad is the last prophet? According to the Khalifa translation (as I have shown you above) Khalifa has inserted himself into the Quran as the "last prophet" of Islam!


Here are some other things to consider:

1. You say the Quran is unchanged. Why then is the Khalifa translation missing the last two verses of Surah 9?

Here have a look! Check out this site for three well-known translation of the Quran (scroll to the bottom to see how many verses in Surah 9):

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html


Now check out Khalifa's translation of Surah 9:

http://19.org/km/RK/9


Now, why would Khalifa remove the last two ayats (verses) of Surah (chapter) 9?

Here's why!



The numerology of Dr. Rashad Khalifa - scientist

...

Dr. Khalifa's research used a computer program that counted the number of times each letter occurred in each sura of the Koran. On the traditional belief that Muhammad could neither read nor write, the embedding of 19 throughout the Koran is proof, Khalifa maintained, that the Koran was dictated by Allah.

Khalifa's writings on 19 sold widely throughout Islamic countries where they became strongly controversial, not only because his numerology tended to support the Baha'i heresy with its emphasis on 19 (see my March/April column), but also because Khalifa rejected the last two verses of Sura 9 as spurious. Why? Because in nine places they violated the secret 19-code. So much for his earlier claim that the text of the Koran had been miraculously preserved from corruption!

Attacks on Khalifa increased in Muslim nations. His writings were banned. Muslim scholars likened his numerology to Jewish and Christian gematria. But it was much more than that. Khalifa rejected Hadith (words attributed to Muhammad), Sunnah (practices said to have been initiated by Muhammad), and Ijma (the consensus of scholars about Muslim doctrines). In brief, he rejected Islamic tradition. Like his counterparts among Protestant fundamentalists with respect to the Bible, he held that the Koran was the only reliable source of Islamic beliefs. Islamic leaders were incensed by his demand that the last two verses of Sura 9 be removed. Their fury increased when Khalifa's egotism grew to the point of declaring himself the divine messenger of Allah foretold in the Koran (3:81). Death threats against him steadily mounted.

The Muslim Digest, published in South Africa, strongly attacked Khalifa as a sinister heretic. Its July/October 1986 issue disputed his word counts. The word Allah, it is claimed, is in the Koran 2,811 times, not 2,698 as Khalifa said. Al-Rahman is there 169 times, not 57 as Khalifa insisted. And so on. "Obviously," an editor wrote, "Dr. Rashad Khalifa's computer needs to brush up on its arithmetic

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_n5_v21/ai_20121071



Seriously Emre, you need to dump Khalifa and Yuksel mate!!

Peace be with you

-JP

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Foster, you can see ecvator and polars at an egg.

Ostrich egg is one of best examples for our world form.

World is not a ball, not a perfect sphere. World is geoid like an egg.

Regards.

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Jigsaw, i said you Khalifa and Edip are humans and they have got mistakes.

Example at past, Edip belive to paradise in "non-forever".

But now he is beliving to forever paradise.

His thinkings are changing sometimes.

Regards.

[Foster Zygote]

Dear Foster, you can see ecvator and polars at an egg.

Ostrich egg is one of best examples for our world form.

World is not a ball, not a perfect sphere. World is geoid like an egg.

Regards.

No, it is not. On an ostrich egg the distance through the axis of symmetry from pole to pole is considerably greater than the equatorial diameter. On the Earth the axial distance from pole to pole is very slightly less than the equatorial diameter.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

No, it is not. On an ostrich egg the distance through the axis of symmetry from pole to pole is considerably greater than the equatorial diameter. On the Earth the axial distance from pole to pole is very slightly less than the equatorial diameter.

True.

Okay I'm going to say this one last time lol and then I'm running off to go insane.

I have shown from Islamic and arabic experts that neither word Emre has presented means egg-shaped anyway! One means spread out and the other The place that an ostrich flattens to lay her egg.

But knock yourself out Foster :) *installs padded walls for the headbanging to ensue*

hehe

-JP

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Foster, ostrich egg is one of the best examples. World and eggs are Geoid.

You can find differences between world and ostrich egg of course.

But this is an example and one of the best.

World is not flat.

World is geoidal like eggs.

Best regards.

[Foster Zygote]

True.

Okay I'm going to say this one last time lol and then I'm running off to go insane.

I have shown from Islamic and arabic experts that neither word Emre has presented means egg-shaped anyway! One means spread out and the other The place that an ostrich flattens to lay her egg.

But knock yourself out Foster :) *installs padded walls for the headbanging to ensue*

hehe

-JP

Actually, I think I'll go eat 50 eggs instead.:)

[fuelair]

What's wierd about the OP is that I think it is directed at Muslims, not non-Muslims. Seems to ramble on about Muslims throught history distorting hadiths for their own ends and how Muslims should really read and understand the Qur'an instead of following religious leaders etc.

Why someone decided to post it here is beyond me, maybe he and Peace Crusader can meet up and keep each other busy.


I think he needs to get with DavidJayJordan.

[Tanstaafl]

Wouldn't that cause annihilation of both of them, turning them into pure energy, and destroying the world?

[CapelDodger]

Actually, it's all horse dung. Wait, no....horse dung is at least useful. All right, then it's all less than horse dung.

Horse dung is more useful than BS, ask any dung-beetle, or gardener for that matter. Count the stomachs.

[CapelDodger]

Jigsaw : you won. Emre : give it up. Now take it outside and settle it in the car-park.

[CapelDodger]

Wouldn't that cause annihilation of both of them, turning them into pure energy, and destroying the world?
That assumes equal and opposite. In fact they have a lot in common.

[grayman]

Dear Foster, Aztecs or other old peoples knowing world is Geoid. But in Muhammed Prophet age, peoples beliving different.

Quran say world has got egg from. This is miracle. Because arabs beliving reverse(and europians too).

Quran words of God.
.

Wait a minute, has this whole thread been an argument over which came first: The ostrich or the egg?

[Filippo Lippi]

That assumes equal and opposite. In fact they have a lot in common.

Looks to me like there are clearly agreed demarcation lines between them, which leads me to wonder whether they're unionised.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Jigsaw : you won. Emre : give it up. Now take it outside and settle it in the car-park.

:)
:D


Now come on hehe I'm sure Emre would like to discuss some other problems with the Quran? Or maybe I scared him off? I have a habit of that hmmmmm


-JP

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Grayman, Quran says "like ostrich egg".

Best regards.

[fuelair]

Wouldn't that cause annihilation of both of them, turning them into pure energy, and destroying the world?

If I were concerned, it would be more on the sucking of all intelligence out of the world - but I actually suspect they together would just cancel each other out (along with any of their followers with them - leaving the world a little bright for their leaving from it for other climes!

[wahrheit]

"30- He made the earth egg-shaped.

The Arabic word “dahw” means rotundity like that of the ostrich’s egg.and again...

Look at an "ostrich egg". This is Quran Miracle.
and again...

"Quran saying world has hot a egg shape" now.

According Quran world has got ostrich's egg form.and again...


Because Quran saying "like egg".



According to Quran World has ostrich egg form. and again...


Quran saying world has got ostrich egg form.

Allah saying our world is like sphere (ostrich egg).

And look at and ostrich egg, this is Quran miracle really.
and again...

dahw is ostrich egg.

Dahw= ostrich egg



Quran giving you science and datas. Like ostrich egg miracle.


Only in Quran you can see real monoteism and datas(like ostrich egg form world)

and again...


dahw= ostrich egg,

Dahw=ostrich egg.

[79:30] He made the earth egg-shaped.

"waht is dahw" and "which word is i ostrich egg in your language"

Dahw=ostrich egg.


You can find a lot of real miracles like ostrich egg in Quran.

and again...



Quran say world has got egg from. This is miracle. and again...

Dear Foster, you can see ecvator and polars at an egg.

ostrich egg is one of best examples for our world form.

World is not a ball, not a perfect sphere. World is geoid like an egg.
and again...

ostrich egg is one of the best examples. World and eggs are Geoid.

You can find differences between world and ostrich egg of course.

World is geoidal like eggs.
and again...


Quran says "like ostrich egg".


I am not making this up. These are all excerpts from Emre_1974tr's posts in this thread. (Bolding mine, obviously.)

Emre, how many times are you going to repeat the same sentence over and over, and over again? I mean, seriously, we are only at page two of this thread.

Repeating the same indefinitely works quite well at churches and in religion, I know. However, this is a forum, and we are not stupid. Saying it once or twice, and then defending your position, might work. But not repeating it ad infinitum.

[Filippo Lippi]

Dear Grayman, Quran says "like ostrich egg".

Best regards.


Which pole's the pointy end?

[Emre_1974tr]

You are not stupid dear wahrheit.

Quran says world is like ostrich egg.

This is really good miracle.

Best regards and peace.

[Emre_1974tr]

For other Quran miracles:

http://www.quranmiracles.com/

For look at real İslam:

http://www.quranic.org/

Best regards and peace.

[Hokulele]

You are not stupid dear wahrheit.

Quran says world is like ostrich egg.

This is really good miracle.

Best regards and peace.


So where are the turtles?

[quixotecoyote]

under the other turtles. obviously.

[wahrheit]

You are not stupid dear wahrheit.

Quran says world is like ostrich egg.

This is really good miracle.

Let alone that the earth is not really shaped like an ostrich egg, it still would not be a miracle if the Quran had mentioned it.

a) The shape of the earth was not unknown at that time

b) A miracle is something different:

miracle
noun
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency

[freudianlip]

I'll tell you what I am a perfect sphere and my hair is flat.......... and I find the lack of humour from Emu Emer most unmuslim...and I prefer to follow the teachings of Hazrima'am...( The Aga Khan ) who does have an updated version of Islam and I prefer not to become stuck in semantics with extremists..... So please lest this guy wreck your head ....have a cuppa' tea (chai) or some morrocan whiskey...( green tea + fresh mint leaves + a huge piece of cane sugar + hot water and simmer for half an hour) Or alternatively have a scrumptious Irish coffee which I am reliably informed contains all 4 important food groups....caffeine...alcohol....sugar..and fat..!!!:p ;)

[fuelair]

and again...

and again...

and again...


and again...

and again...

and again...

and again...

and again...

and again...

and again...



I am not making this up. These are all excerpts from Emre_1974tr's posts in this thread. (Bolding mine, obviously.)

Emre, how many times are you going to repeat the same sentence over and over, and over again? I mean, seriously, we are only at page two of this thread.

Repeating the same indefinitely works quite well at churches and in religion, I know. However, this is a forum, and we are not stupid. Saying it once or twice, and then defending your position, might work. But not repeating it ad infinitum.

By wild coincidence, DJ has not figured this out yet either.

[Foster Zygote]

Quran says world is like ostrich egg.

But according to experts in the Arabic language the Quran says that the Earth is "spread out" Or "like an ostrich nest". Can you cite any sources that are expert in the Arabic language who state that the word in question translates as "round like an ostrich egg"?

[grayman]

For those of you that do not believe a perpetual motion machine is possible, consider this thought experiment: Emre_1974tr and DavidJayJordan debating on a thread.

[freudianlip]

For those of you that do not believe a perpetual motion machine is possible, consider this thought experiment: Emre_1974tr and DavidJayJordan debating on a thread.
Nice grayman...but wouldn't debate be a tad different to endlessly rabbiting on and on, refusing to consider other viewpoints and pasting volumes of doctrine.....OOOOOOOoooooooooooh beam me up Scottie... I had hoped this forum would be a melting pot of ideas and not frenzied spoutings of biased notions?? I think it would be best to fold over space and time hopefully generating a big fat wormhole which would suck useless matter into infinity. Heh..heh..:p

[Björn Toulouse]

After reading this thread about the Quran, I have learned something I never knew before. Arabia has ostriches.

[freudianlip]

Yes but perhaps they (mr E and mr DDJ)spend waaaaaaaaaay too much time with their heads buried in the proverbial sand although contrary to popular belief, ostriches do not bury their heads in the sand. If a predator threatens their nest, or doctrine ostriches will lay their head against the sand to try to blend in with it. Amazing how they have survived natural selection!
The ostrich was until recently found only in Africa, although at one time it also lived on the deserts of Arabia. Many now live in forest preserves and other sanctuaries. Suprisingly though, decades after they died out in Saudi Arabia, ostriches have returned in droves to the kingdom's deserts - to be served up as low-fat burgers and kebabs. Omelette is also in the menu...very irreverant that!

[Foster Zygote]

After reading this thread about the Quran, I have learned something I never knew before. Arabia has ostriches.

Had, I think. I'm pretty sure the Arabian ostrich is extinct. Although if you'd like to get pedantic I'm sure there are a few zoos with African ostriches.:)

[freudianlip]

Had, I think. I'm pretty sure the Arabian ostrich is extinct. Although if you'd like to get pedantic I'm sure there are a few zoos with African ostriches.:)
Quite correct ostriches were once indigenous to the Arabian peninsula until the middle of the 20th century where they were hunted and considered extinct .
There is an ostrich farm not far from us in Ballycotton,Southern Ireland and I don't think the fine diners who enjoy the meat are too bothered where the poor creature comes from. As long as it is succulent and cooked properly!

[Björn Toulouse]

This is one reason I don't post that often. I see something curious in somebody's thread and then begin surfing to check it out. It take me a while to get back.

I never associated ostriches with Arabia.

[wahrheit]

This is one reason I don't post that often. I see something curious in somebody's thread and then begin surfing to check it out. It take me a while to get back.

I never associated ostriches with Arabia.

Well, in case of this particular thread you didn't miss anything while you were surfing other sites. This ostrich discussion is the only thing that can be learned from this thread so far.

[hgc]

Ostrich eggs are so dull. Why couldn't it have been a speckled quail egg?

[grayman]

Quran says world is like ostrich egg.

This is really good miracle.


I am still puzzled. How is this a miracle?

I always thought the world was my oyster.

[wahrheit]

For other Quran miracles:

http://www.quranmiracles.com/

For look at real ?slam:

http://www.quranic.org/

Best regards and peace.

So, this is why you registered? Post links to your favourite sites to give them a little more Google relevance? So far, I can't put any other meaning into this thread and your registration.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

So, this is why you registered? Post links to your favourite sites to give them a little more Google relevance? So far, I can't put any other meaning into this thread and your registration.


Hi wahrheit: yes, Emre is here to do dawah (spread the Islamic faith). This is a common Muslim tactic when discussing Islam; spam the heck out of a new forum.

I hope he comes back though; there's other stuff in the Quran to discuss!! hehe

-JP

[wahrheit]

Hi wahrheit: yes, Emre is here to do dawah (spread the Islamic faith). This is a common Muslim tactic when discussing Islam; spam the heck out of a new forum.

I hope he comes back though; there's other stuff in the Quran to discuss!! hehe

-JP

Doing the dawah? To me, this sounds like ... eh, never mind. :redface1

You can replace the word Muslim in your above post with a lot of other factions as well. Our fundie faithful Christians, some conspiracy folks and other die-hard believers in weird stuff with a self-imposed missionary assignment are doing just the same every other week.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Doing the dawah? To me, this sounds like ... eh, never mind. :redface1

You can replace the word Muslim in your above post with a lot of other factions as well. Our fundie faithful Christians, some conspiracy folks and other die-hard believers in weird stuff with a self-imposed missionary assignment are doing just the same every other week.


haha. Yes absolutely true! I'm still wating for the spaghetti monster believers though... come on they must congregate somewhere!! hehe

-JP

[Emre_1974tr]

No, i am here because i want to give you real data, light.

Regards.

[wahrheit]

No, i am here because i want to give you real data, light.

Cool, but the problem is that you haven't provided any "real data", yet.

Repeating the same four words (ostrich, egg, miracle, Quran) for a gazillion times is not the same like providing data.

[CapelDodger]

Cool, but the problem is that you haven't provided any "real data", yet.

Repeating the same four words (ostrich, egg, miracle, Quran) for a gazillion times is not the same like providing data.

Yes, the same bells are going off in my head. Keywords and the google-rating.

[CapelDodger]

haha. Yes absolutely true! I'm still wating for the spaghetti monster believers though... come on they must congregate somewhere!! hehe

-JP
I adore the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Perfect union of reason and faith; invisible because unseen, pink by belief. And a unicorn because, damn, they're cute.

The FSM I regard as crass. Frankly. Not the sort of parody the more refined atheist would identify with, let alone whip out in decent company.

[joobz]

I adore the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Perfect union of reason and faith; invisible because unseen, pink by belief. And a unicorn because, damn, they're cute.

The FSM I regard as crass. Frankly. Not the sort of parody the more refined atheist would identify with, let alone whip out in decent company.
I don't know about that. If a person was to have their faith dissmissed by comparing it to some obvious fiction, I don't think they'd care if the fiction was a Phallus-headed horse or a omnipotent highly nutritious bowl of pasta. They will take offense.

At least the FSM can inspire some silliness and humor. the Pink unicorn reeks of condescension.

[Foster Zygote]

I don't know about that. If a person was to have their faith dissmissed by comparing it to some obvious fiction, I don't think they'd care if the fiction was a Phallus-headed horse or a omnipotent highly nutritious bowl of pasta. They will take offense.

At least the FSM can inspire some silliness and humor. the Pink unicorn reeks of condescension.

BLASPHEMER! Yes, I've converted.

[negativ]

People, just stop it, please.

There is no god, and there's no need to kill anyone who disagrees or agrees incorrectly.

Mohammed had anal sex with male pigs, and Jesus died with a raging erection shortly after ejaculating into Mary's hair.

See, nothing bad happened to me.

Quit killing each other over this stupid crap, I beg you.

[Wat Tyler]

No, i am here because i want to give you real data, light.

Regards.

Sir, you'll no doubt correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the Qu'ran originally written down using the Kufic script - the one that does not write down any vowels?

If that is the case, then any discussion over what was originally written in it is utterly futile - because there is no accurate record of what was actually written down - only statements of the opinions of 'keepers of the flame' of organised Islam.

Secondly, please will you stop with the 'Ostrich egg' 'miracle' schtick?
The photos posted by Foster Zygote in post 48 on the previous page of this thread prove that the Earth looks a whole lot less like an Ostrich egg than it looks like a ball.
So, to assert that:
a) the Qu'ran says that the Earth is shaped like an Ostrich egg, and;
b) it is 'the infallible word of God';

means that you believe that your God deliberately lied to 'His last Prophet'.

Also, if you'd care to get into longer discussions, I have various questions for you.

Here are just two to be going on with, that do not relate solely to Islam/the many factual inaccuracies in the Qu'ran:

1) If your God is all-knowing and infallible, then WHY does he need/want to create this Universe as a 'test' for us, 'His creations'?

Surely He already knows in advance exactly what each of us is going to do - i.e. your God is either NOT all-knowing and infallible - or the guy's a really sadistic scumbag, who gets His kicks by torturing lesser beings.

2) If 'He' created Adam and Eve with no knowledge of good and evil (i.e. unable to distinguish between right actions and wrong actions), how is it fair to punish them for disobeying Him? Let alone for all Eternity in the unimaginable tortures of Hell.
After all, they would have been incapable of knowing that it was wrong to disobey Him.

This goes back again to giving an image of your God as being a sick sadist - after all, if I were to buy a dog, and then torture it for many many years because it couldn't do higher maths, then I'd be vilified, arrested, and jailed for being a sick cruel scumbag.

And, according to theists, how much greater is the difference between God and a human than that between a human and a dog?

The whole mythology is chock-full of internal inconsistencies that invalidate its claim to be 'the infallible word of God'.

RSVP.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Emre_1974tr: If you're still around, I'd like to discuss some other issues with the Quran?


Thanks in advance :)


-JP

[Emre_1974tr]

Hi Wat;


A-No you are wrong. Egg is better example from a ball.

1-İ said this. This symbolic test world. For showing our hearts. An Example test paper .

And some bad men have got some good thinkings too. So they can take little present in this world.

And some good men have got bad thinkings(actions). So they can pay their little sins in this world.

This world not only for test. This world for test+ paying sins-taking presents.

2-No all humans knowing to good and bad. Quran says this. These are basic datas.

3- No, if you are good, your test life will be good. İf you are a sadist-bad man you will be lost in this symbolic test world.

Hell for bad men. Paradise for good men.

Regards.

[Foster Zygote]

Egg is better example from a ball.

You seem to be saying that the ostrich egg is a good example of the shape of the Earth because, like the Earth, it is not a perfect sphere. By that reasoning one might say that a dinner plate was a good example of the shape of the Earth. And even a mathematically perfect sphere is a more accurate representation of the Earth's form than an ostrich egg.

At any rate, expert testimony has been presented that states that the passage in question does not refer to an ostrich egg.

[Hokulele]

Hi Wat;


A-No you are wrong. Egg is better example from a ball.

1-İ said this. This symbolic test world. For showing our hearts. An Example test paper .

And some bad men have got some good thinkings too. So they can take little present in this world.

And some good men have got bad thinkings(actions). So they can pay their little sins in this world.

This world not only for test. This world for test+ paying sins-taking presents.

2-No all humans knowing to good and bad. Quran says this. These are basic datas.

3- No, if you are good, your test life will be good. İf you are a sadist-bad man you will be lost in this symbolic test world.

Hell for bad men. Paradise for good men.

Regards.


So what are the rest of us, chopped liver?

[grayman]

So what are the rest of us, chopped liver?

Property.

[Hokulele]

Property.


I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you.



:D

[alfaniner]

I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you.



:D


You forgot the part about throwing doggie-doo on their shoes. :boggled:

[sackett]

Well, Jigsaw, you knocked poor Emre off his barstool and down the stairs and into the street, where you then ran over him with a bus; yes, and backed up and ran over him again several times. That’s exactly what you should do. (Although I think that your asking him to translate from a language he doesn’t know, Classical Arabic, into a language he barely knows, English, is a bit cruel.)

But, well, he’s like a cartoon character: Nothing can phase him for long. As soon as you park your bus, he pops right back up again, whole and sound. Wylie Coyote has nothing on Emre.

That’s because he’s in the grip of something we don’t and can’t share in: The romance of his cult.

Now I can understand the appeal of romanticism; I’m a romantic myself, as are many others, some of them right here on this forum. We find romance in far other and better things than religion, but every mind is unique

Romance and poetry are not necessarily linked, but I think that romantic feeling – a heightened sense of the significance and beauty to be found in the object contemplated – often follows from poetic enjoyment. The Quran has its poetic passages, as you know 1,000 times better than I do. It was meant to be poetic, stirring, evocative – romantic, if you like. Every holy book tries to be those things. Muhammad and the redactors who came after him certainly knew that they must compete with the Arabian Nights if they hoped to gain listeners.

I for one find the image of Allah* reaching down out of a black and thunderous sky and spreading out the great world, like a mighty ostrich smoothing the desert sand, quite striking. It’s a poetic image, one that seems to have taken Emre and his pals by the throat, shutting off the blood supply to their brains, perhaps, but obviously stirring them to try to spread their beliefs. (They also seem to find romance in laughing-academy-grade numerology. I said every mind is unique.)

Poor fellows. I hope they’re harmless.

*By the way, I know exactly what Allah looks like. He has ferocious red eyes, black brows, and a big Semitic nose. His beard bristles straight out like a sheaf of arrows. He dresses in Bedouin style, with gold head-ropes and a honkin’ big scimitar lashed to his side. Mess with my Allah and you mess with Capital Tee Trouble! If I had a god, he wouldn’t be any other way.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Well, Jigsaw, you knocked poor Emre off his barstool and down the stairs and into the street, where you then ran over him with a bus; yes, and backed up and ran over him again several times. That’s exactly what you should do. (Although I think that your asking him to translate from a language he doesn’t know, Classical Arabic, into a language he barely knows, English, is a bit cruel.)

Ahem, err, I didn't mean it? hehehe

Well I expect if someone tells me I should "read it in the original arabic" then they would actually know that language? Is that too much to ask?

Its fine though; I was just trying to illustrate my suspicions; that Emre did not know arabic and hence my requests garnered a copy/paste to "cover up" the fact he was speaking from indoctrination instead of experience.



*By the way, I know exactly what Allah looks like. He has ferocious red eyes, black brows, and a big Semitic nose. His beard bristles straight out like a sheaf of arrows. He dresses in Bedouin style, with gold head-ropes and a honkin’ big scimitar lashed to his side. Mess with my Allah and you mess with Capital Tee Trouble! If I had a god, he wouldn’t be any other way.


:D:D


-JP

[Wat Tyler]

Hi Wat;

A-No you are wrong. Egg is better example from a ball.


No it isn't - see the photos I cited for proof.
An Ostrich's egg is a lot less like the shape of our planet than a ball is.

A ball is a much closer approximation to the shape of this planet than an Ostrich's egg is.


1-İ said this. This symbolic test world. For showing our hearts. An Example test paper .

And some bad men have got some good thinkings too. So they can take little present in this world.

And some good men have got bad thinkings(actions). So they can pay their little sins in this world.


As I asked you before, if God is omniscient (knows everything that will ever happen), why does He need to 'test' us in this Universe?

Also, an omniscient creator God would also have known that certain people were going to 'fail' the 'test' (or 'be evil'), and yet, according to your mythology, He still went ahead and made them that way.

If your God is omniscient, He is an Evil sadist, who makes (some of) us solely that he can then 'tell us off' for being how He made us, and then torture us for all Eternity in Hell.

In my opinion, such a deity should not be worshipped, because to do so would be worshipping Evil.


This world not only for test. This world for test+ paying sins-taking presents.


Surely the 'presents' are waiting in the Afterlife/Paradise, no?

NOT here in this world.


2-No all humans knowing to good and bad. Quran says this. These are basic datas.


NOT Adam & Eve (I'm sorry but I do not know their Islamic names).
According to the Torah/Bible (which the Quran accepts as Holy Scripture), they were the first two people, and God created them in the Garden of Eden.

According to the Torah/Bible, God forbade them from eating 'the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil' (Genesis Chapter 2 verse 16).

Clearly, if they eat of this fruit, they will have knowledge of Good and Evil, and the difference between the two (good and evil, or 'right' and 'wrong').

So, before they eat the fruit, they must not have any knowledge of Good and Evil, and hence must not be able to tell right actions from wrong actions.

So, they can not have known that to disobey God was evil (or wrong).

Thus, for God to punish them for it can not be 'just' or 'fair' or 'right', it can only be a sadistic act.


3- No, if you are good, your test life will be good. İf you are a sadist-bad man you will be lost in this symbolic test world.

Hell for bad men. Paradise for good men.

Regards.

As I wrote before, if your God is omniscient, then He would have known, without any doubt about it, that certain people (and He would know exactly which people) were going to 'fail' the 'test' (or 'be evil'), and yet, according to your mythology, He still went ahead and made them that way.

The whole mythology 'doesn't stack up' - it 'kicks the ground from under itself' repeatedly - it is full of internal contradictions that demonstrate that it is not 'the Infallible word of God', but is instead merely yet another human invention.

Also, what do you have to say about the issue of the Quran first being written in the vowel-less Kufic script, and hence not being a fully accurate transcript of the prophet's words?


Lastly, I appreciate that it must be difficult for you to come here and discuss these questions in a language that is not your 'mother tongue' - so my compliments to you, as your English is much better than my Arabic or Urdu will ever be.

Cheers,
WT.

[grayman]

WT,

Since Emre_1974tr does not seem to be here, allow me to answer your lengthy post in a fashion befiiting of Emre:


Quran say world has got egg from. This is miracle.

I hope that will suffice.

[Tanstaafl]

I say world has got from cue ball. I am miracle.

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Watt,

İ said you;

Hi Wat;


A-No you are wrong. Egg is better example from a ball.

1-İ said this. This symbolic test world. For showing our hearts. An Example test paper .

And some bad men have got some good thinkings too. So they can take little present in this world.

And some good men have got bad thinkings(actions). So they can pay their little sins in this world.

This world not only for test. This world for test+ paying sins-taking presents.

2-No all humans knowing to good and bad. Quran says this. These are basic datas.

3- No, if you are good, your test life will be good. İf you are a sadist-bad man you will be lost in this symbolic test world.

Hell for bad men. Paradise for good men.

Regards.

[Wat Tyler]

WT,

Since Emre_1974tr does not seem to be here, allow me to answer your lengthy post in a fashion befiiting of Emre....

...I hope that will suffice.

:roll:

Also, my apologies for my regrettable tendency to not only verge on the margins of prolixity, but also to become inebriated with the efflorescence of my own polysyllabic verbosity.

I expect that it will be necessary for other forum members to repeatedly castigate me for it (Don't some people actually pay for that sort of thing?), even though I do try to resist the urge to merely open the dump-valve on the tank marked 'bilious ranting', honest.
;)

[Wat Tyler]

Dear Watt,

İ said you;




I know that you did.

I picked that post apart, and tried to illustrate to you why I disagree with each of your statements.

Please try to answer the points that I raised, because merely repeating yourself convinces other people of only one thing - that you are not only incorrect, but also incapable of seeing it.

WT

[Foster Zygote]

I say world has got from cue ball. I am miracle.

I say world has got from Telly Savalas. Telly Savalas is miracle.

[TriangleMan]

A-No you are wrong. Egg is better example from a ball.
1-İ said this. This symbolic test world. For showing our hearts. An Example test paper .
And some bad men have got some good thinkings too. So they can take little present in this world.
And some good men have got bad thinkings(actions). So they can pay their little sins in this world.
This world not only for test. This world for test+ paying sins-taking presents.
2-No all humans knowing to good and bad. Quran says this. These are basic datas.
3- No, if you are good, your test life will be good. İf you are a sadist-bad man you will be lost in this symbolic test world.
Hell for bad men. Paradise for good men.
Regards.

My God, it's the Islamic version of TimeCube!

4-point ostrich egg truthness! All others are educated evil! :p

[aries]

I think the OP is trying to clarify that there are Moslems out there which
are trying to cut out the hadits etc. from Islam - and only have the (holy) Quaran as the inspiration, guide, etc. for the Moslems. (just as Luther tried to get away with all the non-biblical practices in the Catholic Faith in the
15-16th century.

To me, this is indeed a somewhat positive development as many of the Hadiths contain the more, questionable content, in Islam, especially when it comes to women's status in society and such...

[Emre_1974tr]

No Dear Wat;

İ said to why i am true (past answers)

You can't ansvering my real datas.

World is like egg more than ball (world is geodical not perfect sphere )

And you don't know to what Quran says. You are speaking about Torah and Bible dogmas. But i am giving you Quran's real datas.

This world is symbolic test + paying sins-taking little presents

Read Quran and learn these real datas.

And you must learn "thinking".

Regards and good luck.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

To me, this is indeed a somewhat positive development as many of the Hadiths contain the more, questionable content, in Islam, especially when it comes to women's status in society and such...

The Quran contains the same objectionable things; the hadith just clarify exactly what they mean.


Yuksel and Khalifa however, had a motive. The Hadith clearly state that Muhammad was the "final messenger" and that "no one would come after him".

Rashad believed he was the "final messenger" so what do you do? You reject all hadith and rewrite the Quran of course!

The hadith also shows that Muhammad said that any innovation to either Islam or the Quran is NOT acceptable and will not be accepted by Allah (another reason to dump it).


One thing to Rashad's credit through; his 'version' of the Quran is a lot 'softer' and affords women more rights than the actual Quran.

-JP

[Wat Tyler]

No Dear Wat;

İ said to why i am true (past answers)

You can't ansvering my real datas.


1) You have NOT explained 'why you are true'; you have merely repeated unsubstantiated (and demonstrably false) assertions with which your 'betters' have programmed you.

2) Your posts to date have contained very little real data, just many fallacious assertions.

3) You are consistently failing to answer my questions.

RSVP



World is like egg more than ball (world is geodical not perfect sphere )


For the umpteenth time, it is less like an egg than it is a perfect sphere - and specifically it is a lot less like an Ostrich's egg than it is a ball.
And others have posted pictures that prove this.

Your 'egg' 'miracle' is baloney, tripe, rot, guff, fallacious, wrong, incorrect, non-credible...

...can anyone else help me out here with synonyms for 'claptrap'?


And you don't know to what Quran says. You are speaking about Torah and Bible dogmas. But i am giving you Quran's real datas.


Actually, I do know what the Quran says - I have a copy of it that I have read more than once.

And, as the central mythology of the Quran is built on the Torah and Bible, pointing out the flaws inherent in their mythology also points out the flaws inherent in the mythology of the Quran.

And, once again, I ask you to address the fact that the Quran was NOT transcribed accurately - it was initially written down in a script that does NOT include vowels - which means that it has to be interpreted by 'experts'.

Why do you steadfastly refuse to address this problem with your 'infallible word of God'?


This world is symbolic test + paying sins-taking little presents


Please answer the point (that I have already made twice) that shows that the 'God' of the Quran would not have any need to 'test us' - and that therefore this world is NOT a 'test' from 'God'.

If you cannot refute this argument, then you must concede that you are wrong.

Please feel free to ask your Imam/the head of your Madrassa to help you out with this question.


Read Quran and learn these real datas.


See what I wrote above.


And you must learn "thinking".

Regards and good luck.

Please learn to make an argument (which word I mean in its sense of a discussion, not in its sense of an emotionally-heated exchange of insults).

Merely repeating nonsensical assertions ad nauseam might be a good way to 'persuade' an illiterate four-year-old that you are 'right', but it will not work in this community - most of us are well-read, educated, intelligent adults.

I look forward to reading your reply.

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear wat;

1-Look at the pictures, ask to science people, read the science books, world is geoid like an egg. So ostrich egg is one of the best example for the world.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm

2-You don't know the Quran.This life is "symbolic test + paying sins, taking presents life.

According to Quran hell and paradise are forever. You can't leave from Hell. So bad men can take their presents only in this world.

And good men going to paradise in another world. So they can pay their little sins in this world only.

Yes God knows the future. Because God is in all forever time spots. God in future, god in past times, God in now time spot (always). So God never travelling from now spot to future spot. Becase already in the all times.

6:27. And could you see when they are made to stand before the fire, then they shall say: Would that we were sent back, and we would not reject the communications of our Lord and we would be of the believers.

6:28. Nay, what they concealed before shall become manifest to them; and if they were sent back, they would certainly go back to that which they are forbidden, and most surely they are liars.

This test life is "symbolic" test life.

Torah and Bible changed. they have got a lot of mistakes. But only Quran saved and perfect.

Regards.

[Wat Tyler]

Dear wat;

1-Look at the pictures, ask to science people, read the science books, world is geoid like an egg. So ostrich egg is one of the best example for the world.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm

2-You don't know the Quran.This life is "symbolic test + paying sins, taking presents life.

According to Quran hell and paradise are forever. You can't leave from Hell. So bad men can take their presents only in this world.

And good men going to paradise in another world. So they can pay their little sins in this world only.

Yes God knows the future. Because God is in all forever time spots. God in future, god in past times, God in now time spot (always). So God never travelling from now spot to future spot. Becase already in the all times.

6:27. And could you see when they are made to stand before the fire, then they shall say: Would that we were sent back, and we would not reject the communications of our Lord and we would be of the believers.

6:28. Nay, what they concealed before shall become manifest to them; and if they were sent back, they would certainly go back to that which they are forbidden, and most surely they are liars.

This test life is "symbolic" test life.

Torah and Bible changed. they have got a lot of mistakes. But only Quran saved and perfect.

Regards.

Alas, as I feared, you are NOT answering specific questions about your claims, and are not considering evidence; you are merely continuously repeating the same, already-debunked, points of your tired, old, discredited dogma at us.

As I said in my previous post, not only does this convince no-one of your argument, it merely makes you look like a troll.

Thankyou for playing.

Bye-bye.
<sigh>

[Emre_1974tr]

No, i answered you dear wat.

But you are in dogma. So you can't think free and you can't see the real datas.

Read tehe Quran and forget the other religion books.

According to Quran this is symbolic test life.

And according to Quran, no souls, no monks, no imams, no holy men.

According to Quran Noah Flood is not in all world.

Noah Flood is only for Noah's sinner people.

And only in Noah's Land.

But you are thinking with Bible's and Torah's dogmas. Leave from these dogmas. Come to science and real datas.

Regards.

[grayman]

Emre_1974tr, will you please explain why your "world is like an ostrich egg" analogy is a miracle? What exactly is the miracle?

[Hokulele]

Geoids! I use those all the time to calculate elevations based on survey data (total station and GPS). Here is everything you ever wanted to know about local geoids for the US.

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/GEOID/geolib.html

However, a true geoid is shaped nothing like an egg. An egg has a cross section that is thicker at one end of the major axis than the other. Whereas a geoid has a cross section shaped more like a true oval (same thickness at both ends of the major axis). In other words, the cross section of an egg is only symmetrical about the major axis, not the minor, whereas a geoid has a cross section that is symmetrical about both axes. If you spin the egg profile around its major axis, you get an egg. If you spin it around the minor axis, you get a cough drop. If you spin an oval about its minor axis, you get a geoid. If you spin it about its major axis, you get a skinnier geoid. Geoids are clearly not egg-shaped. Topology and topography are fun!

In addition, no one geoid accurately represents the entire planet. Earth is too lumpy to be precisely measured other than at a local level. If you mention a geoid corresponding to the earth, it is either an equipotential model or an average.

On a side note, the shape of an ostrich egg is due to the process of egg-laying by most avians, ostriches included. Some reptiles lay eggs that are more spherical, but I doubt that even the Quran would confuse an ostrich with a turtle (the OP on the other hand . . .).

[Foster Zygote]

Emre, I'm curious to know if you are using translation software?

[ReligionStudent]

No, i answered you dear wat.

But you are in dogma. So you can't think free and you can't see the real datas.

Read tehe Quran and forget the other religion books.

According to Quran this is symbolic test life.

And according to Quran, no souls, no monks, no imams, no holy men.

According to Quran Noah Flood is not in all world.

Noah Flood is only for Noah's sinner people.

And only in Noah's Land.

But you are thinking with Bible's and Torah's dogmas. Leave from these dogmas. Come to science and real datas.

Regards.

How is the Quran science or data?

[Hokulele]

Read tehe Quran and forget the other religion books.

Emre, I'm curious to know if you are using translation software?


If it is translation software, he must be transcribing the results.

(I have got to get me a copy of that tehe Quran. Sounds like more fun than the translation I have.)

(ETA: Ooh, does it come with the free Tickle Me AllahTM?)

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Emre, I'm curious to know if you are using translation software?

And, if he is, whether there is any better he could use?

[wahrheit]

And, if he is, whether there is any better he could use?

Would it really make much difference if his continuous copy & paste job in this thread was done with perfect grammar and spelling?

He repeats the same over and over again and ignores what Wat Tyler, Hokulele or anybody else is posting in reply.

The only purpose of this thread is spamming a forum with his dogmatic pribble-prabble. He is definitely not interested in a serious discussion.

[Emre_1974tr]

No, dogma is your life dear Wahrheit.

İ am giving you real datas, science.

Regards.

[wahrheit]

No, Emre_1974tr, I don't think dogmata play a big role in my life.

[knot]

This reward system of paradise/heaven or hell, as a behavior modifier, is childish.

One must be truly compassionate and kind within his own heart, without any reward motive. These are the only true pure hearts.

[slingblade]

İ am giving you real datas, science.

That's a lie.

[ReligionStudent]

That's a lie.

well of course, no one can give datas, that's like giving feets or goyims.

[slingblade]

I use my pet meeces to scare the wild mooses.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

How is repeating the same debunked claim over and over again "real data / science" ?

[Ducky]

No, i answered you dear wat.

But you are in dogma. So you can't think free and you can't see the real datas.

Read tehe Quran and forget the other religion books.

According to Quran this is symbolic test life.

And according to Quran, no souls, no monks, no imams, no holy men.

According to Quran Noah Flood is not in all world.

Noah Flood is only for Noah's sinner people.

And only in Noah's Land.

But you are thinking with Bible's and Torah's dogmas. Leave from these dogmas. Come to science and real datas.

Regards.


Please explain how the Quran is science and not mythology.

[SimonD]

Please explain how the Quran is science and not mythology.

Because the Quran said so.:)

[Emre_1974tr]

No dear dalton, look at mathamatical proofs and others...

http://www.quranmiracles.com/

[SimonD]

No dear dalton, look at mathamatical proofs and others...

http://www.quranmiracles.com/

Try answering all the questions in this thread.

I want to hear your take on the disgusting way the Quran speaks about women.

[wahrheit]

Cool, another raise-my-Google-ranking link posted. :rolleyes:

Would you mind to reply with more substantial posts, Emre?

[Gregory]

No dear dalton, look at mathamatical proofs and others...

http://www.quranmiracles.com/

I am thoroughly unconvinced.

[Ducky]

No dear dalton, look at mathamatical proofs and others...

http://www.quranmiracles.com/

Thoroughly unconvincing.

ETA:

All that website seems is post hoc rationalization of science to quran verses. IT's not evidence the Quran is science.

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear simon we are equal.

Women=Men

You must read true translation. Example Edip Yüksel's.

Regards.

[ReligionStudent]

Dear simon we are equal.

Women=Men

You must read true translation. Example Edip Yüksel's.

Regards.

Isn't the idea of a true translation usually held to be false?

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Dear simon we are equal.

Women=Men

You must read true translation. Example Edip Yüksel's.

Regards.


Hello Emre: I have already debunke the "prophecies" on the url you gave (I have done so on another site). The lengths muslims wil go to to find prophecy in the Quran eh?

Second off, Men and women are NOT Equal. Some examples:

1. Men can marry Four women (Q. 4:3) but women cannot marry four men (or even more than one)

2. Men can beat their wives (Q. 4:34) but women cannot beat their husbands.

3. The Testimony of TWO Women is equal to ONE Man (Q. 2:282) Muhammad said in Bukhari that this is because they are "deficient in intelligence" (eg. Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 30)

4. Women may give up their own rights in a marriage in order to avoid being divorced by their husbands (Q. 4:129-132) Whereas men have sole say over the matter of divorce (women cannot triple talaq).




There you go, four examples off the top of my head. I have shown you that men and women are not equal.




Thirdly, I have already shwon you that Edip Yuksel and Khalifa's Quran are not accepted by the majority of Muslims; you are considered as heretics by the majority of Muslims; and your whole "cult" (within Islam) is centred around Dr. Rashad Khalifa's claim of being the "last messenger" (which muslims believe was Muhammad NOT Rashad) and the "numerical miracles" in the Quran (which have all been debunked).


Thanks

-JP

[Gregory]

Dear simon we are equal.

Women=Men

You must read true translation. Example Edip Yüksel's.

Regards.

Well, since the Reformist Translation hasn't been published yet, that's a bit of a tall order, don't you think?

It's interesting, though--Yüksel is apparently something of a skeptic in other areas. (http://www.yuksel.org/e/paranormal/). I guess even generally reasonable people can fall down when it comes to religion.

[neon]

No dear dalton, look at mathamatical proofs and others...

http://www.quranmiracles.com/


Aren't "science" and "miracles" direct contradictions of each other?

:eye-poppi

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Jigsaw, nobody beat nobody.

You speaking about wrong translation.

And answers of your other questions.:

http://www.quranic.org/quran_article/21/women_in_the_quran_and_in_the_fabricated_religion. htm

Regards.

[Cleon]

Sura 109, Al-Kafirun (The Unbelievers):

In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful:

Say O ye who do not believe!
I do not worship that which you worship,
And you do not worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which you worship,
And you will not worship that which I worship.
To you be your way, and to me be mine.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Dear Jigsaw, nobody beat nobody.

You speaking about wrong translation.

And answers of your other questions.:

http://www.quranic.org/quran_article/21/women_in_the_quran_and_in_the_fabricated_religion. htm

Regards.


Quran 4:34:


YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.


SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.





Please Note: In the Yusuf Ali translation there are many (bracketed) words and phrases. These are not in the original arabic, and were added by Ali to "soften" his translation.

I have presented two other translations so you can compare.

Also note the word "fear" in there. A man can BEAT his wife is he FEARS disloyalty; she doesn't have to do it; he just thinks that she might.



Thanks

-JP

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Sura 109, Al-Kafirun (The Unbelievers):

In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful:

Say O ye who do not believe!
I do not worship that which you worship,
And you do not worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which you worship,
And you will not worship that which I worship.
To you be your way, and to me be mine.


Hello Cleon, Surah 109 huh?

Are you aware that it was abrogated by the Ayah of the sword?

Thanks

-JP

[Emre_1974tr]

Wrong translations your castle dear Jigsaw. because you afraid from true datas.


"Men traditionally take care of women, since God has endowed each of them with certain qualities and men spend from their financial resources. The righteous women are obedient (to God) and during the absence (of their husband) they honor them according to God's commandment. As for those women whom you are experiencing a fear of disloyalty from, you shall first advice them, then (if they continue) you may desert them in bed, then you may strike them out. If they obey you then don't transgress against them. God is Most High, Supreme." (4:34). (Edip Yüksel's)

Regards.

[Gregory]

Nobody believes in your crappy cult translation. I know it will astonish you. "He teaches at a community college!" you'll cry, "and has published many things via vanity presses! How could you possibly question is credentials?" But, there you go.

[ReligionStudent]

Wrong translations your castle dear Jigsaw. because you afraid from true datas.


"Men traditionally take care of women, since God has endowed each of them with certain qualities and men spend from their financial resources. The righteous women are obedient (to God) and during the absence (of their husband) they honor them according to God's commandment. As for those women whom you are experiencing a fear of disloyalty from, you shall first advice them, then (if they continue) you may desert them in bed, then you may strike them out. If they obey you then don't transgress against them. God is Most High, Supreme." (4:34). (Edip Yüksel's)

Regards.

How can you possibly claim this is the correct translation (especially because both Islam and scholars would tell you that translations are bunk and full of errors).

[Emre_1974tr]

İf you don't belive me, learn the Arabic and read yourself original Quran Gregory.

Crappy is your comment. Come to quality.

Regards.

[Emre_1974tr]

http://www.yuksel.org/e/books/rtq.htm

[ReligionStudent]

http://www.yuksel.org/e/books/rtq.htm

Yay, it has eight features.

Oh wait, my car is apparently more accurate than this translation then.

[Gregory]

How can you possibly claim this is the correct translation (especially because both Islam and scholars would tell you that translations are bunk and full of errors).

He claims it because it's what he wants to believe.

The seven most popular translations of the Quran are the result of pre-Internet-era scholarship.
The Quran: A Reformist Translation will be vetted by a global committee of progressive, independent scholars offering commentary and suggestions via the Internet.


Oh dear...

[Hokulele]

Wrong translations your castle dear Jigsaw. because you afraid from true datas.


"Men traditionally take care of women, since God has endowed each of them with certain qualities and men spend from their financial resources. The righteous women are obedient (to God) and during the absence (of their husband) they honor them according to God's commandment. As for those women whom you are experiencing a fear of disloyalty from, you shall first advice them, then (if they continue) you may desert them in bed, then you may strike them out. If they obey you then don't transgress against them. God is Most High, Supreme." (4:34). (Edip Yüksel's)

Regards.

Even if this translation is true, and I am NOT saying it is, it is still horrendously misogynistic. Righteous women are obedient to men? Only men can spend from financial resources? Women who are disloyal can be rebuked, deserted, and struck out? Striking out sounds pretty horrible to me! Even in this gentle translation women are clearly being placed in an inferior role. Where are the instructions for male obedience? This religion is sexist and I for one have no interest in following it.

[ReligionStudent]

Oh no he said something sexist in front of Hokulele, now we will see who needs protecting.

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Hokulele, you don't know to what saying it. Read all of paragraphs and book.

Women and men are equal.

Regards.

[Hokulele]

Dear Hokulele, you don't know to what saying it. Read all of paragraphs and book.

Women and men are equal.

Regards.


I have read the Quran, apparently more so than you, and I read your paragraph you posted here. Both are terribly sexist. A woman is only worth half a man. Women can only inherit half of what a man can. There is no place where the Quran states that men and women are equal. Counting the number of times the word "woman" appears and the word "man" appears does not count if the woman is always being presented as being inferior to a man.

Re-read your own post and show me how that it proves that men and women are equal.

[Hokulele]

Oh no he said something sexist in front of Hokulele, now we will see who needs protecting.


:D In real life, I am really pretty mellow regarding this kind of issue. It's only when some fundamentalist comes around trying to convert me to a religion that tells me I am worthless do the fangs pop out.

[Gregory]

So, Emre_1974tr, do you have anything to contribute other then to swear up, down, left, and right about the accuracy of a translation of the Quran that hasn't actually been published yet? And demand that we read it, despite the fact that it does not, and this moment in time, exist?

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Wrong translations your castle dear Jigsaw. because you afraid from true datas.


"Men traditionally take care of women, since God has endowed each of them with certain qualities and men spend from their financial resources. The righteous women are obedient (to God) and during the absence (of their husband) they honor them according to God's commandment. As for those women whom you are experiencing a fear of disloyalty from, you shall first advice them, then (if they continue) you may desert them in bed, then you may strike them out. If they obey you then don't transgress against them. God is Most High, Supreme." (4:34). (Edip Yüksel's)

Regards.

You translatin is flawed. I know you are a hadith denier, but here are some hadiths that make it clear that a Muslim man can beat his wife:


Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715:

Narrated 'Ikrima:


Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e.. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,"


Where did Muhammad tell him off for beating his wife??


Abu Dawud Book 11, Number 2142: Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:


The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.
Abu Dawud Book 11, Number 2141: Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab:



Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.



So the women that went around to Muhammad's place to complain that their husband were beating them (after Muhammad said they could) are "not the best among you"


Nice huh?




There are just some examples where Muhammad gave permission or did not tell off men when they beat their wives.

The only Muslims that agree with your interpretation, Emre, are your fellow (heretics) Submittors/19'ers (Khalifa and Yuksel followers).


I have given you three of the most famous translations of 4:34 and they render the meaning of the verse whereas yours does not.

Thanks

-JP

[wahrheit]

Dear Hokulele Phil, you don't know to what saying it. Read all of paragraphs and book.

Women and men are equal. The earth is flat.

Fixed it.

Seriously, arguing that the Quran (or the Bible, you name it) is not sexist makes about as much sense as claiming that the earth is flat*.


* Or has the shape of an ostrich egg.

[Emre_1974tr]

dear Hokulele, no you never read collektive of Quran. So you don't know to what quran says.

Dear Jigsaw, i give you real translation. You see , no beat. So you escape to hadith lies. Hadits are not from islam. Only Quran.

Regards.

[Emre_1974tr]

Dar Jigsaw, i give you real translation. So you can see no beat.

But now, you are escape to hadith lies. they aren't from islam. Only Quran.

Regards.

[ReligionStudent]

But now, you are escape to hadith lies. they aren't from islam. Only Quran.

Regards.

If you are going to take this stance, wouldn't it also follow to not use some translation that has not even been published yet.

[Hokulele]

dear Hokulele, no you never read collektive of Quran. So you don't know to what quran says.


And that is the most insulting, dismissive statement you have made to me yet. How on this oblate spheroid earth do you know what I have and have not read? Fine, two can play this game.

You have not read the Tao te Ching. You don't know anything about comparative religion. The quran is sexist. islam is sexist. I have no interest in converting to islam and I am now motivated to tell any other thinking person that they should avoid your brand of islam like virus-laden water. Go spread your sexist lies somewhere else.

[Emre_1974tr]

Be relax i read all religions Hokulele.

Quran is not sexist. But you are sexist.

Regards.

[Tanstaafl]

Be relax, Hokulele.

Quran is not ostrich egg. this is miracle.

You are world, ostrich is sexist.

Real translation only are from me. i know all of all religion.

Read collektive of Quran.

No hadith, only my cult.

[Hokulele]

Be relax i read all religions Hokulele.


In the writings of Chuang Tzu, what it the moral of the story about the butcher?

Quran is not sexist. But you are sexist.


Ha ha ha ha ha! *Reads that line again.* Ha haha ha ha ha haaaaa, hoo!

Seriously, would you please provide the definition of sexist you are working with?

Be relax, Hokulele.

Quran is not ostrich egg. this is miracle.

You are world, ostrich is sexist.

Real translation only are from me. i know all of all religion.

Read collektive of Quran.

No hadith, only my cult.


This needs to go in my sig. :)

[Tanstaafl]

Thanks! :)

But, you can edit out the double "read", cut-and-paste error.

[wahrheit]

Be relax, Hokulele.

Quran is not ostrich egg. this is miracle.

You are world, ostrich is sexist.

Real translation only are from me. i know all of all religion.

Read collektive of Quran.

No hadith, only my cult.

:newlol :newlol :newlol :thumbsup:

[Hokulele]

Thanks! :)

But, you can edit out the double "read", cut-and-paste error.


Cool. BTW, I fixed it in my quote of your quote, although it does scan better the original way. ;)

ETA: Sorry I had to trim it.

[Tanstaafl]

Hey, it's just a thrill to make someone's sig!

[Emre_1974tr]

İs this your best? Oh you are really not smart.

[slingblade]

No. We are not smart.

You should go find smart people.

You should go where they are.

No more time wasting here.

Goodbye.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

dear Hokulele, no you never read collektive of Quran. So you don't know to what quran says.

Dear Jigsaw, i give you real translation. You see , no beat. So you escape to hadith lies. Hadits are not from islam. Only Quran.

Regards.

Hello Emre, how are you doing?

You gave me a real translation? I don't think so. I can dig up 12 different English translations if you want. Shall we see how many contain the word "beat"/"Scourge"? Would you like a word for word from the arabic? Will you accept it?

Fact is, this is NOT a "real translation' that you have given.

Second off, the hadith ARE from Islam. The hadith are sayings and actions of your prophet Muhammad. To say they are "not Islam" is a complete lie.



Dar Jigsaw, i give you real translation. So you can see no beat.

But now, you are escape to hadith lies. they aren't from islam. Only Quran.

Regards.


oh yeah repeat it twice; that will convince us.


-JP

[Hokulele]

İs this your best? Oh you are really not smart.


Was that your best? Not impressed. In case you didn't read it the first time:

What is the moral of the butcher's story in the Taoist writings by Chuang Tzu?

Prove that your diluted version of the quran treats women fairly. Show me where the inheritance laws do not discriminate in favor of men.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

İf you don't belive me, learn the Arabic and read yourself original Quran Gregory.

Crappy is your comment. Come to quality.

Regards.

Come on Emre! After I translated the arabic in 79:30 you STILL claimed I was wrong and you were right.

So if Gregory DID learn arabic and come and tell you that you were wrong on 4:34 then you STILL wouldn't accept it (as you did not accept my translation).

Therefore your challenge is worthless.

-JP

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Jigsaw;

İ am giving you real translating. Don't be stress, come to true.

Second, hadiths are from fake hadith religions. But not from İslam.

Only Quran is islam. But this true data is your nightmare.

http://www.quranic.org/quran_article/2/religion_professed_in_the_quran.htm

Regards.

[Gregory]

Do you even speak ancient Arabic? Every time you present a translation, it's someone else's.

[wahrheit]

Your platter is scratched, Emre, it keeps playing the same part over and over again.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Do you even speak ancient Arabic? Every time you present a translation, it's someone else's.


I don't think he does. Everytime I asked him for a literal translation of a verse, his answer was "Go ask an arab"

lol


-JP

[Hokulele]

Only Quran is islam. But this true data is your nightmare.

Show us your translation of the inheritance laws. A true translation of this is your nightmare.



JP - Nice job on demonstrating the translations from the original Arabic. I may have to ask you some questions one of these days. :)

[TriangleMan]

I feel like showing this thread to my muslim friends, but I think they would just be embarrassed by Emre's behaviour.

Is this just a Google-ranking ploy?

[Beerina]

You seem to be saying that the ostrich egg is a good example of the shape of the Earth because, like the Earth, it is not a perfect sphere. By that reasoning one might say that a dinner plate was a good example of the shape of the Earth. And even a mathematically perfect sphere is a more accurate representation of the Earth's form than an ostrich egg.

At any rate, expert testimony has been presented that states that the passage in question does not refer to an ostrich egg.

The Earth is close enough to a perfect sphere -- the difference in diameter through the poles vs. the Equator is only 13 miles -- that it differs in diameter by .0016. Manufacturing of rubber balls or "ostrich eggs" have far greater error tolerance from perfect spheres. Your plates in your kitchen probably have more variation as circles than the cross sections of the Earth do.

[Beerina]

*By the way, I know exactly what Allah looks like...His beard bristles straight out like a sheaf of arrows.

A beard is part of a larger mane (circle of hair around the face) on human males -- and the purpose is well established: to make the organism seem larger, and thus more ferocious to others of its kind and other threats, for a minimum cost in resource consumption (which in this case means additional food required to grow the mane.)

If a god has a beard, then it's because he has a mane -- he needs to scare away other gods, powerful devils and demons, or other threats "not of his kind", whatever that may be. What could be a threat if He's infinite and all powerful? And why would resource consumption be a problem, such that a facade of hair was advantageous over just producing an actually larger body?

One wonders...

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

I would bring up more issues with the Quran, but going by Emre's responses so far, I do not think it will do any good.

-JP

PS: Thank you Hokulele

[Emre_1974tr]

Caner Taslaman's article:

http://www.canertaslaman.com/english/RHETORIC/

Regards

[Emre_1974tr]

From my blog:

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_UJKCKA4BNXTBX6ZBNUFAK7JRXY/blog/articles/201628?listPage=index

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_UJKCKA4BNXTBX6ZBNUFAK7JRXY/blog/articles/39983?listPage=index

Regards

[Foster Zygote]

The thread rises from the dead! Is miracle!

[I Ratant]

Is still insult to think people.

[dafydd]

Dear Jigsay;

İ am saying you, don't afraid from real datas and ask this, look at dictionaries.

Quran saying world has got ostrich egg form.

You can't change this real data :)

And , yes Allah word in all ages.Becasue İslam is first religion with Adam. When prophets die, after, peoples changing religion-book.

Until Quran. Only Quran saved until Big Crunch(doomsday)

Yes don't afraid my friend. Look at, Allah saying our world is like sphere (ostrich egg).

You never find a mistake Quran. But you can find a lot of mistakes and comedies at Bible and other changed books(Torah,Zebur vs....)

And look at and Ostrich Egg, this is Quran miracle really.

Regards :)

What is all this nonsense?

[dafydd]

Dear Jigsaw;

İ am giving you real translating. Don't be stress, come to true.

Second, hadiths are from fake hadith religions. But not from İslam.

Only Quran is islam. But this true data is your nightmare.

http://www.quranic.org/quran_article/2/religion_professed_in_the_quran.htm

Regards.

What about some proof of the existence of allah,or indeed any god?

[dafydd]

İs this your best? Oh you are really not smart.

People who believe garbage like the koran or the bible are short of smarts.

[Bill Thompson]

Hello dear Jigsaw.

Quran never say "flat". This is wrong translation.

"30- He made the earth egg-shaped.
79-The Snatchers, 30

The Arabic word “dahw” means rotundity like that of the ostrich’s egg.

That is not what I have heard. Where do you get your information? Do you know Arabic?

What is more is that there is the story of the sun setting in a lake and the moon being just a few feet above our heads such that Mohammed could split it in two with a sword. He did this, apparently to prove to Meca that he was the messenger of God.

People who do not know Hebrew have come forward to tell me that the bible says the earth is round, but when I study it closely I have found that it is they who have gotten it wrong. I predict the same will happen here. There is a word in the bible that means "round" but the hebrew word means round like a coin, not like a sphere. Ever fighting appolgists come back and tell me that there is not a hebrew word for sphere, but there is. In fact, it is used elsewhere in the bible.

Since Muslisms have gotten so many things wrong when I have these debates, i suspect we are going down this road again. I invite you to go along with me here, but be prepared to be proven wrong.

[Bill Thompson]

I expected a discussion.

The Quran pretends to be the word of God, but it disqualifies itself in the first verse. It begins with a prayer. Thus it cannot be the word of God. Otherwise, to whom is God praying to?

[dafydd]

I expected a discussion.

The Quran pretends to be the word of God, but it disqualifies itself in the first verse. It begins with a prayer. Thus it cannot be the word of God. Otherwise, to whom is God praying to?

And the quran was written by a guy with a penchant for little girls.

[I Ratant]

And the quran was written by a guy with a penchant for little girls.
.
It's the remembered inspirations than any writings of M.
And he had no limits on his libido, bedding all and sundry.

[I Am The Scum]

People who believe garbage like the koran or the bible are short of smarts.

I'd like to see some evidence for this.

[dafydd]

I'd like to see some evidence for this.

I would have thought that believing in a fairy story was prima facie evidence.

[I Am The Scum]

I would have thought that believing in a fairy story was prima facie evidence.

This is a forum that focuses on skeptical inquiry. If prima facie evidence were sufficient, this place wouldn't exist.

[Craig4]

I'm going to side with Mustafa Kemal Ataturk on this one. Islam is the immoral theology of a corrupt Bedouin. If it helps any I also think Christianity is a freakish death cult.

[pizzadeliveryninja]

I only just encountered this on its recent resurrection.

Wow, who'd have thought that Muslims were just as bad liars as Christians?

[Emre_1974tr]

Real Islam is only in Quran:

http://www.quranic.org/

http://www.quranmiracles.com/

Regards

[DC]

Real Islam is only in Quran:

http://www.quranic.org/

http://www.quranmiracles.com/

Regards

the only quran miracle i am aware of is the miracle that even thou the book is full with errors it is still believed to be the word of an all powerful god.

that is the real miracle.

[Andrew Wiggin]

Is it too late to mention that I like oatmeal cookies?

It's never too late for oatmeal cookies. Or kittens.

[Agatha]

What is all this nonsense? Is miracle!

Is still sexist, superstitious nonsense, is still wrong translation, is still thinly disguised effort to get high in google rankings, but is miracle. :p

[aviolet4u]

Emre I'd gone to school at a few mosques as a child. I had forgotten what notes I'd written for the teachers, I was around 9. I found one notebook and had written that listening to music is a sin however if you go into a room and its already playing you are excused. Men can marry women outside the religion because they can become muslim after. Women can't do this because men are stronger. Let me not mention the things I've written about vengeance and hellfire.

I closed the notebook after that. Doesn't the Quran have a verse saying its ok to beat a woman with a stick "lightly?" Does all this sound holy? Come off as perfection itself? How?

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear aviolet4u;

You are speaking about peoples and wrong translations...

http://www.quranic.org/quran_article/21/women_in_the_quran_and_in_the_fabricated_religion. htm

http://www.quranic.org/quran_article/22/headscarf_and_veiling.htm

[tsig]

Dear aviolet4u;

You are speaking about peoples and wrong translations...

http://www.quranic.org/quran_article/21/women_in_the_quran_and_in_the_fabricated_religion. htm

http://www.quranic.org/quran_article/22/headscarf_and_veiling.htm

Typical religious apologetics claiming that what a verse said isn't what it meant:

BEATING WOMEN
One other verse misinterpreted happens to be Verse 34 of Sura The Women. We would like to quote here from two authors. “This verse does not allude to the incontestable superiority of man,” says Yaþar Nuri Öztürk. “The reference is made to the difference between men’s and women’s respective constitutions. Yet, most of the commentators that have had recourse to willful misinterpretation of the Quranic verses to serve their own ends explained away the expression ‘qawwam’ mentioned in the Quran to mean overlordship, justifying in this way man’s despotism. The term ‘fadribu’ mentioned in the Quran has been reduced to having a single meaning while it actually has more than one.

Feels just like a YEC arguing about the third meaning of an obscure Hebrew word.

[Kapyong]

Gday,

Emre has been studying how to use computers, and after 4 years has correctly learned the 'I' key :


İ said you;
...
1-İ said this.


Finally he has rid himself of that pesky umlaut :

Real Islam is only in Quran:


Although the post title still has it :-)


Iasion

[slingblade]

Real Islam is only in Quran:

http://www.quranic.org/

http://www.quranmiracles.com/

Regards

Okay. Any reason why I should care?

[Ladewig]

Real Islam is only in Quran:

http://www.quranic.org/

http://www.quranmiracles.com/

Regards

OK, the only real Islam is in the Quran.

However, the "miracles" that you are claiming in the Quran are not really miracles. I followed your second link and found the most contorted logic trying to support a specific interpretation of your holy book. For instance:

1- The Hour has come closer and the moon has split (shaqqa).
54-The Moon, 1

There is another indication in the Quran in the above verse referring to the landing on the moon. In order to have a better insight into this, let us dwell on the connotation of the Arabic word “shaqqa” which, among its multifarious meanings, signifies “rending asunder,” “splitting,” “fissuring;” it may also signify plowing the soil.

Really?! The Almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth wanted to foretell of the time centuries in the future when mankind would fly to the moon and the best He could come up with was "the moon will be split or furrowed"? In English the word to describe such reasoning is "shoehorning." It means one is forcing a particular interpretation when there is no reason to believe that that particular interpretation fits in any way. You (and the people who wrote that website) want the Quran to be a miraculous prophecy that describes astounding miracles. You want that so much that you are prepared to view the Book in a very distorted way. Three hundred years ago, would anyone in the entire world look at that verse and say, "ah, Allah is describing the day when men will walk on the moon"? No. It is only when it is viewed from the 21st century that people marvel at the accuracy and profundity of such verses.

There is no reason to believe that the Quran is miraculous or prophetic.

[dafydd]

What do you expect from a book written by a mysoginist pedophile?

[Emre_1974tr]

Big Bang and God:

http://www.bigbang.ws/

30- Do not these disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were an integrated mass, which We then split, and from water We made all living things? Will they not believe even then?
21-The Prophets, 30

47- With power did We construct Heaven. Verily, We are expanding it.
51-The Dispersing, 47

And Big Crunch in Quran:

104- On that day We will fold the heaven, like the folding of a book. Just as We initiated the first creation, We will revert it. This is Our promise. We will certainly fulfill it.
21-The Prophets, 104


http://www.quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=72

Regards

[Craig4]

Big Bang and God:

http://www.bigbang.ws/

30- Do not these disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were an integrated mass, which We then split, and from water We made all living things? Will they not believe even then?
21-The Prophets, 30

47- With power did We construct Heaven. Verily, We are expanding it.
51-The Dispersing, 47

And Big Crunch in Quran:

104- On that day We will fold the heaven, like the folding of a book. Just as We initiated the first creation, We will revert it. This is Our promise. We will certainly fulfill it.
21-The Prophets, 104


http://www.quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=72

Regards

Hey wow, your book is just like the Bible. You can make the words do anything you want too.

It's time humanity grew up and stopped playing my stupid made up fairy story is better than your stupid made up fairy story.

[Craig4]

What do you expect from a book written by a mysoginist pedophile?

No kidding, that dude was a freak.

[aviolet4u]

I almost believed in it as a child but even then I thought there is something seriously wrong with living with this fear of a hell. None of it made sense especially for women. Burning for eternity for not covering up your hair? and for not saying "god is great" millions of times?

If he's so great and perfect- he doesn't need to be patted on the back and cried for constantly.

[Astreja]

30- Do not these disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were an integrated mass, which We then split...
Read the Enûma Eliš, Emre. Marduk split Tiamat in half to make heaven and earth. Either the Mesopotamian polytheists also knew of the Big Bang theory, or the authors of the Qur'an just recycled a very old myth.

...and from water We made all living things?
The Qur'an is quite clearly wrong about this. Hydrogen and oxygen are not sufficient to make life; one also needs nitrogen and carbon.

[Emre_1974tr]

My new blog:

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/2011/07/nobody-has-got-ghost-according-to-quran.html

Regards

[dafydd]

This is our manifesto.

Not copy.

A manifesto for a fairy tale?

[dafydd]

My new blog:

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/2011/07/nobody-has-got-ghost-according-to-quran.html

Regards

Pass.

[Craig4]

My new blog:

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/2011/07/nobody-has-got-ghost-according-to-quran.html

Regards

No thanks, I outgrew fairy stories a long time ago.

[Bill Thompson]

No dear friend. An Arab never say "this saying flat". Because Quran saying "like egg".İ showed you this.

Quran never has got mistake. :) Because it is from God.



Joesph Smith knew this trick well. Just tell someone a book is from God and they will not be able to find fault. Even if they find a fault in the Book of Mormon, the Mormon will think the fault is within themselves and not in the book.

It is a trick.

It only means that when a mistake if found, you have to struggle to rationalize it and make it right in your brain no matter what.

The Quran begins with a prayer. It cannot be the word of Allah if it begins with a prayer because Allah doe not pray to anyone.


No, the Quran is not the word of Allah. It is not. It is a retelling of Biblical stories that are known to have come from word-of-mouth legends that were rarely based on fact. in fact archeologist know where most of these stories came from and they came from myths to explain the world.

Let me list the lies in the Quran.


The first lie is that all man came from one man. If that was true, all the paternal DNA in humans would match like the does for all the maternal DNA. This is the first lie in the Quran that I have found. The Quran is a lie. Do not hate the messenger. Do not hate the truth.
Here is the second lie I have found in the quran. "And thy Lord inspired the bee, saying ... eat of all fruits." Allah told bees to eat from all fruits, but decided to eat nectar and pollen instead. 16:68-68 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/16/index.htm#68)
The sun ... and the moon when she followeth him."
The moon orbits the earth; it doesn't "follow the sun." 91:1-2 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/91/index.htm#1)
Someday the stars will fall. 81:2 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/81/index.htm#2) but since the stars are really like suns and many are much larger, they cannot "fall" to the Earth
"And hath made the moon a light"</I>
This verse implies that the moon produces its own light, rather than reflecting light from the sun. 71:16 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/71/index.htm#16)
All things We have created by pairs." This is not true. Many bacteria, protists, fungi, and plants reproduce asexually. 51:49 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/51/index.htm#49)
The earth is fixed and does not move. 27:61 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/27/index.htm#61)
The Pharaoh threatens to crucify Hebrews on palm tress. (But crucifixion was a Roman form of punishment that was unknown at the time.) 20:71 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/20/index.htm#71)
The story of Adam and Eve is reported in the Quran. But it is known that these stories were first invented by the Hebrews as children stories to make sure that children -- even the ones who did not know right from wrong -- obeyed authority. The whole bit about Eve and the apple was modified from the Ancient Pandora story where the first woman on earth unleashed all the evil onto the world by a simple mistake.
The Noah's arc story is in the Quran and this is not historically true for many many reasons. It is also known where this story came from as well. It was taken from an earlier religion called the Epic of Gilgamesh
Sorry to burst your bubble. The quarn is a lie. Don't hate me for seeing the truth and telling you.
So why did Mohammed lie? Simple. He was a policitican. What better way to make people do what you tell them and gain power by taking bits and pieced of other religions and some Arab myths (the jinn) and call your religion "islam" which means "submit".

And did Mohammed know it was a lie? What about that story in one Hadath where he is terrified by a solar eclypse and prayed and wailed in terror for misleading people?

[Foster Zygote]

Considering that Eratosthenes demonstrated the spherical nature of the Earth and even worked out its size with remarkable accuracy about eight hundred years before Mohammed was born, there is simply nothing miraculous about the Koran describing the Earth as being "like an ostrich egg" as opposed to "flat".

[ANTPogo]

The Quran begins with a prayer. It cannot be the word of Allah if it begins with a prayer because Allah doe not pray to anyone.

Come on, Bill...you posted that bit of foolishness six months ago, and I corrected you back then (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6949364#post6949364).

Of all of your dumb criticisms of the Qur'an, this one is by far the dumbest.

[Bill Thompson]

Come on, Bill...you posted that bit of foolishness six months ago, and I corrected you back then (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6949364#post6949364).

Of all of your dumb criticisms of the Qur'an, this one is by far the dumbest.
Your post says other religions are just as dumb that means nothing.

Oh wait this:

"Allah didn't dictate to Muhammad directly, but though the angel Gabriel. The prayers are those of Gabriel to Allah, not Allah to himself."

That cannot be right because the angel would have known that the Adam Eve and Noah's Arc story never happened. :p

The quran does not say that it was Gabriel is praying. It is still not good enough.

Was it really truly Gabriel praying? If so, the Quran made the mistake of not making that clear. Catch 22. It is still a fault.

Or did Mohammed just slip up? Since he slipped up in other places, it is likely an error. Here are more places:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/topics/author.html

According to Occom's Razor, it would most likely be a mistake and your clever little theory about Gabriel (that I had never heard from any of the Muslims I know) is just that, a clever excuse, but not a real answer. The idea is to tell the truth, not to find a clever excuse.

Also, the Gabriel myth is not real. Most of the time Mohammed would go into a trance and one of his men would grab something to write something down on -- kind of like the channeling scam we have today.

Sure, the Gabriel bit is popular. It is like when Mormons show me paintings when they introduce their religion and show Joesph SMith with the golden plates. It did not really go down that way but it is what they want to believe. The Gabriel myth is similar.

So, go through the list I have growing:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=7521833&postcount=231

[Mudcat]

Kids why argue over what a work of ancient mythology says about the shape of the world? Might as well argue over the shape of Middle-Earth for all the good it does.

[ANTPogo]

Might as well argue over the shape of Middle-Earth for all the good it does.

Hey, there are plenty of people who do that, too!

[Mudcat]

Hey, there are plenty of people who do that, too!

No doubt (I'm in the FM-E camp myself) but you know the point remains. It's vital that people agree that the Bible/Koran/Torah is all mythology, because millions and billions of people live their life by it and I find it a very big problem that such a sizable group of people can't differentiate fact from fiction.

[Bill Thompson]

ANTPogo's explaination for the Quran beginning with a prayer is that it was an angel doing the praying. That is a new one. No muslim decided to take this approach. So her defense (if you want to call it) is that the angel was making the prayer. Well, why? Why would that be necessary?

So instead of stepping into palusability she steps into mythology. It is a Catch 22. Even if you want to think that an actual angel was doing the praying and conveying of Allah's word, it is still a lie because the angel got too many things wrong. Instead of defending Islam, ANTOPogo has made it much worse and stranger. A lying angel? Hell's Angel?