Disingenuous "Be strong" and prayers

[Senex]

I've read today Simon Cowell is embattled and apologized for rolling his eyes when some jerk on his show said 'Be strong" to the people of Virginia Tech.

That aggravates me. You can watch 24/7 coverage of people making those types of statements on TV if that's what you wish. American Idol (I don't watch it often myself) has nothing to do with current events. It's inappropriate for someone about to have an audience who votes on his singing ability to play the mass murder card. Cowell appropriately rolled his eyes because that is wrong. Cowell was cowed when he backtracked. Did anyone on American Idol say anything about the 130+ Iraqi's who died the next day in car bombs? Did anyone notice no one on that show showed insensitivity by overlooking any other previous carnage? Has anyone used that forum to mention any sort of evil before?

In my local paper today was a picture of my mayor and his staff holding hands outside of City Hall praying for the students who died. I wanted to puke. Pray without the newspaper photo you pieces of crap. When the newspaper photographer is invited you are disingenouos in my book.

I toss and turn in my mind the terribleness of what happened as much at VT as anyone. I also have trouble trying to understand evil in other places in the world. I also believe you don't thrust your insencere ******** wherever it might help you. It just pisses me off when some people support some victims but not others for their own personal gain.

[darnell11]

Umm... Simon said that he didn't know what they guy was taking about because he was talking to Paula while the guy was making that comment. They played it back on the show, and Simon was referring to the guy's singing, not what he was saying about the shooting. Everyone thought he was being rude, but he didn't have a clue about what that guy was saying.

[Senex]

Umm... Simon said that he didn't know what they guy was taking about because he was talking to Paula while the guy was making that comment. They played it back on the show, and Simon was referring to the guy's singing, not what he was saying about the shooting. Everyone thought he was being rude, but he didn't have a clue about what that guy was saying.

That's what Simon has been cowed to say. He saw what just happened to Imus.

"I'm not politically incorrect. No need for me to lose my job!"

[Blackwell]

I've read today Simon Cowell is embattled and apologized for rolling his eyes when some jerk on his show said 'Be strong" to the people of Virginia Tech.

That aggravates me. You can watch 24/7 coverage of people making those types of statements on TV if that's what you wish. American Idol (I don't watch it often myself) has nothing to do with current events. It's inappropriate for someone about to have an audience who votes on his singing ability to play the mass murder card. Cowell appropriately rolled his eyes because that is wrong. Cowell was cowed when he backtracked. Did anyone on American Idol say anything about the 130+ Iraqi's who died the next day in car bombs? Did anyone notice no one on that show showed insensitivity by overlooking any other previous carnage? Has anyone used that forum to mention any sort of evil before?

In my local paper today was a picture of my mayor and his staff holding hands outside of City Hall praying for the students who died. I wanted to puke. Pray without the newspaper photo you pieces of crap. When the newspaper photographer is invited you are disingenouos in my book.

I toss and turn in my mind the terribleness of what happened as much at VT as anyone. I also have trouble trying to understand evil in other places in the world. I also believe you don't thrust your insencere ******** wherever it might help you. It just pisses me off when some people support some victims but not others for their own personal gain.

I tend to think that an American Idol contestant is probably being sincere in their well-wishing; politicians are thinking of the next vote. Neither are particularly appropriate.

[Moochie]

I've read today Simon Cowell is embattled and apologized for rolling his eyes when some jerk on his show said 'Be strong" to the people of Virginia Tech.

That aggravates me. You can watch 24/7 coverage of people making those types of statements on TV if that's what you wish. American Idol (I don't watch it often myself) has nothing to do with current events. It's inappropriate for someone about to have an audience who votes on his singing ability to play the mass murder card. Cowell appropriately rolled his eyes because that is wrong. Cowell was cowed when he backtracked. Did anyone on American Idol say anything about the 130+ Iraqi's who died the next day in car bombs? Did anyone notice no one on that show showed insensitivity by overlooking any other previous carnage? Has anyone used that forum to mention any sort of evil before?

In my local paper today was a picture of my mayor and his staff holding hands outside of City Hall praying for the students who died. I wanted to puke. Pray without the newspaper photo you pieces of crap. When the newspaper photographer is invited you are disingenouos in my book.

I toss and turn in my mind the terribleness of what happened as much at VT as anyone. I also have trouble trying to understand evil in other places in the world. I also believe you don't thrust your insencere ******** wherever it might help you. It just pisses me off when some people support some victims but not others for their own personal gain.

VT is a tragedy on many levels. Many people from all over feel the utter horror of it. Some of those people will use the occasion to reap brownie points.

It is how it is.

People in America need to look at that Second Amendment, IMO. Fewer guns in the hands of maniacs equals fewer deaths.

That's the tip of the iceberg -- and I say that deliberately, because the chill surrounding this event extends across the globe. Why?

Well, why did no one understand this person's (the young man who committed the atrocity) pain? Are we so inured to death and destruction that it no longer affects us?

Is this the sort of world we all want?

M.

[Senex]

That's the tip of the iceberg -- and I say that deliberately, because the chill surrounding this event extends across the globe. Why?

More people die in Darfur, Iraq/other places harder to spell everyday. Why do people in Australia care so much about this occasion?

Well, why did no one understand this person's (the young man who committed the atrocity) pain? Are we so inured to death and destruction that it no longer affects us?

People in America need to look at that Second Amendment, IMO. Fewer guns in the hands of maniacs equals fewer deaths.

Our constitution is my bible. Granted the part of the second amendment about bearing arms is like the religious people's part about who begat who (not my favorite part), but I don't want the government looking at an eccentric post I made on this site and throwing my ass in confinement. It's not easy to know what is in another's mind. It's easy to point a finger when bad things happened. I'm in favor of more gun control. I'm not in favor of messing with my constitution.

[SamanthaMc]

On American Idol last night, they showed Simon from the night before while Chris was talking about the VT incident. Simon was getting confirmation from Paula that Chris did indeed say that he sang his song "nasally" intentionally. He rolled his eyes and shook his head because he couldn't believe that Chris would actually do that on purpose. He did not even hear what Chris was saying about VT, and later on in the show that night, he himself mentioned the tragedy.

Chris mentioned VT because he has friends there and he is from Chesapeake.

[Senex]

On American Idol last night, they showed Simon from the night before while Chris was talking about the VT incident. Simon was getting confirmation from Paula that Chris did indeed say that he sang his song "nasally" intentionally. He rolled his eyes and shook his head because he couldn't believe that Chris would actually do that on purpose. He did not even hear what Chris was saying about VT, and later on in the show that night, he himself mentioned the tragedy.

Chris mentioned VT because he has friends there and he is from Chesapeake.

You drank the American Idol Kool Aid.

I'm a skeptic!

[Soapy Sam]

The koolaid sounds credible to me.
For the record, I have no idea who any of the people mentioned in this thread are, nor have I seen the relevant programmes, but I know that what you can hear at any given moment in a TV studio depends on which switch someone else pushes.

[Senex]

The koolaid sounds credible to me.
For the record, I have no idea who any of the people mentioned in this thread are, nor have I seen the relevant programmes, but I know that what you can hear at any given moment in a TV studio depends on which switch someone else pushes.

I need to switch to what beverage you are using ;)

For the record, Kool Aid is a fine beverage -- but as a metaphor it is always a poison of the believers (even though it is undeserved).

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/f/ff/Kool-AidMan.jpg

[Moochie]

More people die in Darfur, Iraq/other places harder to spell everyday. Why do people in Australia care so much about this occasion?

I'm not sure that people here do care. All I can truthfully say is that I care.

We had such a tragedy happen here in 1996, and the aftermath saw already stringent gun laws tightened even further.

Since then, we've experienced the odd murder here and there, but nothing on the scale of 1996.

I put that down to how we regulate possession of guns.

I doubt if our attitude toward the mentally ill is any different to yours. We've had a number of occasions where mentally ill persons have been killed by police. Like America, we emptied our "crazies" out onto the streets some years ago -- economy in the guise of "humaneness."

If we are "advanced," and I say that tongue-in-cheek, it is because we have made it extremely difficult for people to obtain WMDs, i.e., guns.

I wish things were different. I wish people were educated to be sensitive to the likes of Cho. But the sad fact is that few care.

The few who feel deeply in the face of these atrocities, and I include all atrocities throughout the world, seem to be hopelessly outnumbered by those who who seem inured to these events. To most, VT is "tough excreta."

Our constitution is my bible.Well, I would ask you to revisit that attitude.

Granted the part of the second amendment about bearing arms is like the religious people's part about who begat who (not my favorite part), but I don't want the government looking at an eccentric post I made on this site and throwing my ass in confinement.I wonder if your attitude would be different if you were actually engaged in your political system -- especially if you, like us, had laws in place that mandated your attendance at a polling booth during elections.

It's not easy to know what is in another's mind. It's easy to point a finger when bad things happened. I'm in favor of more gun control. I'm not in favor of messing with my constitution.The constitution appears to have been framed at a time when it made a lot of sense to have an armed populace. Does that still pertain? I think not.

I'll go out on a very tenuous limb here, and say that your political masters use this infatuation with the constitution against you, in that you are blinded to the real inequities in your society.

I saw a documentary about ENRON the other day, and it occurred to me that those pricks -- Skilling, Lay, et all, did far more damage to your society than the likes of Cho ever could.

What do you think about that?


M.

[Biff Starbuck]

BTW, the people at Jonestown reportedly drank poisoned Flavor Aid rather than Kool Aid.

And yes, I realize that Kool Aid is a generic term for that type of beverage and also that the standard line is "drank the Kool Aid." I just hate to see Kool Aid Man's reputation wrongly impugned :)

[Moochie]

BTW, the people at Jonestown reportedly drank poisoned Flavor Aid rather than Kool Aid.

And yes, I realize that Kool Aid is a generic term for that type of beverage and also that the standard line is "drank the Kool Aid." I just hate to see Kool Aid Man's reputation wrongly impugned :)

Thanks, Bill :D

M.

[Senex]

What do you think about that?

My buddy Moochie is ready to argue with me.

I'm not sure that people here do care. All I can truthfully say is that I care.

We had such a tragedy happen here in 1996, and the aftermath saw already stringent gun laws tightened even further.

Since then, we've experienced the odd murder here and there, but nothing on the scale of 1996.

I put that down to how we regulate possession of guns.

I doubt if our attitude toward the mentally ill is any different to yours. We've had a number of occasions where mentally ill persons have been killed by police. Like America, we emptied our "crazies" out onto the streets some years ago -- economy in the guise of "humaneness."

Well, the police don't routinelly kill the mentally ill on the street here -- but we weren't previously a penal colony (no offence).

If we are "advanced," and I say that tongue-in-cheek, it is because we have made it extremely difficult for people to obtain WMDs, i.e., guns.

I wish things were different. I wish people were educated to be sensitive to the likes of Cho. But the sad fact is that few care.

The few who feel deeply in the face of these atrocities, and I include all atrocities throughout the world, seem to be hopelessly outnumbered by those who who seem inured to these events. To most, VT is "tough excreta."

Well, I would ask you to revisit that attitude.

I wonder if your attitude would be different if you were actually engaged in your political system -- especially if you, like us, had laws in place that mandated your attendance at a polling booth during elections.

The constitution appears to have been framed at a time when it made a lot of sense to have an armed populace. Does that still pertain? I think not.

I always vote, do they shoot you in Australia if you don't vote? That sucks. Most of the people I know are unarmed. I'm not very engaged in my political system, but who are you to say I'm not?

I'll go out on a very tenuous limb here, and say that your political masters use this infatuation with the constitution against you, in that you are blinded to the real inequities in your society.
I'm American; I have no master (perhaps a mistress or two). I recognize an inequity when I see it you rascal.

I saw a documentary about ENRON the other day, and it occurred to me that those pricks -- Skilling, Lay, et all, did far more damage to your society than the likes of Cho ever could.

It's hard to compare evil.

I hope wer'e still friends,

Senex

[Totalgamefreak]

You drank the American Idol Kool Aid.

I'm a skeptic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhEQXqrCzzQ

2:40 into the video.

[Soapy Sam]

Hey, at the risk of a minor derail .
Is "Drinking the koolaid" actually a figure of speech in the States? It's not one I have come across, if so.

I fear my own beverage has been water and coffee these last two weeks. No booze where I am. Or Koolaid.

[darnell11]

Samantha and I are right, He had no clue what that guy was saying! They showed the clip when he was talking about the shootings and you could hear Simon talking to Paula and rolling his eyes about Chris's singing, not about what he was saying.
Senex-did you watch American Idol showing this?

[Senex]

Samantha and I are right, He had no clue what that guy was saying! They showed the clip when he was talking about the shootings and you could hear Simon talking to Paula and rolling his eyes about Chris's singing, not about what he was saying.
Senex-did you watch American Idol showing this?

Two things -- the first is this could be taken into the conspiracy thread. The most popular TV show of all time wouldn't use creative editing would it?

Second -- it doesn't make any difference about my point. What's wrong is wrong.

[darnell11]

Oh, you're saying this is a conspiracy? Okay, then it should be on the conspiracy section. But I don't think so, if you have seen the clip it's pretty clear Simon is talking about Chris's singing and not rolling his eyes about his comments. I don't see how they could have edited it to make it look that way.
I don't think it was wrong for Chris to make a comment on the shootings-He was upset about it and wanted to say something, how is that wrong? It wasn't political for him to mention it, in my opinion.

[darnell11]

But I admit I could be wrong about Simon-he could have heard what he said, or not. I'm just leaning towards not.

[Senex]

Oh, you're saying this is a conspiracy? Okay, then it should be on the conspiracy section. But I don't think so, if you have seen the clip it's pretty clear Simon is talking about Chris's singing and not rolling his eyes about his comments. I don't see how they could have edited it to make it look that way.

Yeah, yeah, and David Blaine can really rise several feet off the ground.


I don't think it was wrong for Chris to make a comment on the shootings-He was upset about it and wanted to say something, how is that wrong? It wasn't political for him to mention it, in my opinion.

Do you think anyone who truly was suffering was helped by his words? Just another blah, blah, blah, by a stranger. Anyone he knew he should have spoke with on the phone or through e-mail -- not exploiting them through American Idol.

[Moochie]

My buddy Moochie is ready to argue with me.


Well, the police don't routinelly kill the mentally ill on the street here -- but we weren't previously a penal colony (no offence).


I always vote, do they shoot you in Australia if you don't vote? That sucks. Most of the people I know are unarmed. I'm not very engaged in my political system, but who are you to say I'm not?

I'm American; I have no master (perhaps a mistress or two). I recognize an inequity when I see it you rascal.


It's hard to compare evil.

I hope wer'e still friends,

Senex


Of course we're still friends, silly sausage :)

M.

[aggle-rithm]

BTW, the people at Jonestown reportedly drank poisoned Flavor Aid rather than Kool Aid.

And yes, I realize that Kool Aid is a generic term for that type of beverage and also that the standard line is "drank the Kool Aid." I just hate to see Kool Aid Man's reputation wrongly impugned :)

Why? Kool Aid Man is wicked scary.

[Senex]

BTW, the people at Jonestown reportedly drank poisoned Flavor Aid rather than Kool Aid.

And yes, I realize that Kool Aid is a generic term for that type of beverage and also that the standard line is "drank the Kool Aid." I just hate to see Kool Aid Man's reputation wrongly impugned :)

Kool Aid man has much more to explain to his god than Jonestown. Look at the photo -- it's like a cow handing me a steak.

Of course we're still friends, silly sausage


If I stuck to driinking Kool Aid my sugar content may be up but my embarrassment content would be way down ;)

[Moochie]

Growing up in Australia, kids' drink of choice was cordial. A certain brand -- Kia Ora, if memory serves -- had most of the market, with Cottee's not far behind.

Although these substances were full of sugar, most kids avoided obesity thanks to the very active lifestyles they enjoyed.

Of course, this was well before television became the centerpiece of most living rooms.

M.

[Senex]

Growing up in Australia, kids' drink of choice was cordial. A certain brand -- Kia Ora, if memory serves -- had most of the market, with Cottee's not far behind.

Although these substances were full of sugar, most kids avoided obesity thanks to the very active lifestyles they enjoyed.

Of course, this was well before television became the centerpiece of most living rooms.

M.

Dodging angy kangaroos and koalas would keep any child sharp.

Dingos still give me nightmares ;)

I have yet to speak of the Tasmanian Devil.

[Cuddles]

Dodging angy kangaroos and koalas would keep any child sharp.

Dingos still give me nightmares ;)

I have yet to speak of the Tasmanian Devil.

And don't even get started on the drop bears.

[SomeGuy]

And don't even get started on the drop bears.

Please don't! In my 10 months in Australia, I've had 2 nearly fatal run-ins with them.

[Ipecac]

Senex,

American Idol has several cameras filming simultaneously. The next day, Idol showed the entire footage from the camera on Simon during the incident, split screen and timed with the contestant's statement on the stage. It's absolutely clear that Simon was not listening to what was happening on stage and was reacting to his conversation with Paula about the guy purposely using a "nasal" twang in the song.

You can believe it's an edited tape and a huge conspiracy if you'd like, but the evidence doesn't support you.

[Senex]

Senex,

American Idol has several cameras filming simultaneously. The next day, Idol showed the entire footage from the camera on Simon during the incident, split screen and timed with the contestant's statement on the stage. It's absolutely clear that Simon was not listening to what was happening on stage and was reacting to his conversation with Paula about the guy purposely using a "nasal" twang in the song.

You can believe it's an edited tape and a huge conspiracy if you'd like, but the evidence doesn't support you.

I would like the people reading this to judge for themselves. This is what I saw... http://www.ifilm.com/video/2845448

Maybe I was wrong (I doubt it, put in "American Idol" and "conspiracy" in Yahoo and you come up with 2 million hits.), but it doesn't make my premise any less believable if I was wrong.

Disingenuous showing of support to a cause you don't care about only wishing to further your own cause is BS.

[Moochie]

And don't even get started on the drop bears.

Believe it or not, in over 50 years of being steeped in what passes for Australian culture, I had never heard the term "drop bear."

Therefore, I think some Yankee bustard or a bloody Pom must have made it up.

M.

[Senex]

Believe it or not, in over 50 years of being steeped in what passes for Australian culture, I had never heard the term "drop bear."

Therefore, I think some Yankee bustard or a bloody Pom must have made it up.

M.

I edited the wikipedia entry for length...

A drop bear (or dropbear) is an Australian marsupial said to be related to the koala.

Drop bears are commonly unusually large, vicious, carnivorous koalas that inhabit treetops and attack their prey by dropping onto their heads from above.
The drop bear discourages children from straying needlessly below eucalyptus trees, protecting them from getting hit by a falling branch. Arbitrary detachment of old branches is common with certain species of the eucalyptus, which are known as 'widow-makers' for this very reason. Similar theories are attached to the cone from the bunya tree.

The drop bear appears to have first appeared during the latter half of the 20th century, and may have its origins with Phascolarctos stirtoni, the carnivorous Phascolarctos involus or perhaps Thylacoleo carnifex, which belong to a group of extinct animals known as Australian megafauna. The prehistoric creatures were approximately twice the size of modern koalas. Thylacoleo is thought to have been an arboreal predator that may well have ambushed prey by dropping on it from overhead branches.

It is suggested that doing things like having forks in the hair or Vegemite or toothpaste spread behind the ears will deter the creatures.


You better get out the Vegemite, my friend, and stay away from the eucalyptus :eek:

[Mobyseven]

More people die in Darfur, Iraq/other places harder to spell everyday. Why do people in Australia care so much about this occasion?

Because as far as I'm aware, Australia still holds the record for the largest one-man gun massacre. Not a record we're particularly proud of, but by the same token not one we'd like to see surpassed.

Our constitution is my bible. Granted the part of the second amendment about bearing arms is like the religious people's part about who begat who (not my favorite part), but I don't want the government looking at an eccentric post I made on this site and throwing my ass in confinement. It's not easy to know what is in another's mind. It's easy to point a finger when bad things happened. I'm in favor of more gun control. I'm not in favor of messing with my constitution.

What exactly makes you think that a group of men who lived a few centuries ago, in a time when it would be quite appropriate and prudent for the citizens to bear arms 'just in case', know what is best for this society that has changed so much over time.

The Constitution is not some divine scripture. It is a legal document that reflects the time it was written in. But the times are changing, and there are systems in place that allow you to make alterations to the Constitution.

The Constitution was never meant to be a static document - hell, that goes against the very idea of democracy. It is certainly very difficult to alter, but the provisions are there for a reason.

I would, if I were you, not treat an antique legal document in the same way as a fundamentalist treats their King James Version...it is, shall we say, somewhat disturbing.

[Moochie]

Because as far as I'm aware, Australia still holds the record for the largest one-man gun massacre. Not a record we're particularly proud of, but by the same token not one we'd like to see surpassed.



What exactly makes you think that a group of men who lived a few centuries ago, in a time when it would be quite appropriate and prudent for the citizens to bear arms 'just in case', know what is best for this society that has changed so much over time.

The Constitution is not some divine scripture. It is a legal document that reflects the time it was written in. But the times are changing, and there are systems in place that allow you to make alterations to the Constitution.

The Constitution was never meant to be a static document - hell, that goes against the very idea of democracy. It is certainly very difficult to alter, but the provisions are there for a reason.

I would, if I were you, not treat an antique legal document in the same way as a fundamentalist treats their King James Version...it is, shall we say, somewhat disturbing.

Good post, Moby. Evidently Senex has been trying to beguile me with bogus references to Aussie "culture," but it hasn't worked.

It will take much more than casual references to Vegemite and Koalas to convince me Yanks are better mass murderers than us bronzed ANZACs!

Strewth!

M.

[Mobyseven]

Good post, Moby. Evidently Senex has been trying to beguile me with bogus references to Aussie "culture," but it hasn't worked.

It will take much more than casual references to Vegemite and Koalas to convince me Yanks are better mass murderers than us bronzed ANZACs!

Strewth!

M.

Crikey, look out behind you Moochie! A highly flammable koala!

;)

[Moochie]

Crikey, look out behind you Moochie! A highly flammable koala!

;)

Yeah, right.

Almost had me, there :D

M.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Senex, Simon didn't even hear what he was saying- he was still bickering over his singing with Paula. It's a misunderstanding, the cameras just cut to him at the wrong time.

Chris has friends there and is from Virginia himself. Don't be so cynical. Well, be cynical, I know I am, but not that cynical.

[Mobyseven]

Don't be cynical, be skeptical. :p

[autumn1971]

Commenting as an American, I too, am amazed by the inability of my countrymen to imagine anyone living outside the media built walls of the U S of A. After the September 2001 attacks, I seemed to be the only voice reminding my redneck friends that the last time a building in the USA had been targeted by terrorists, the terrorists were lily white military boys.
As to the tragedy at VT, I've heard many people espousing the opinion that more guns on campus would have ameliorated the destruction. I ask anyone who is thinking of presenting a similar viewpoint to answer the question, "how the &#%$ would any of the 'heroes' of your cowboy cult have been able to distinguish between the shooter and other men of tiny penises who happened to be carrying firearms with them that day."
Imagine dozens of gun-slinging heros trying to figure out weather to shoot the dude with the gun in the hallway, or trying to determine if he was friend or foe.
The more guns argument only works if there is only one more gun, and it is controlled retroactively.

[darnell11]

Senex, No, David Blane is a magician; it's clearly an illusion. Simon Cowell is not a magician, and American Idol has no reason to create illusions on the show. I doubt they care about politics. Really, a stupid comparison. It's good to be skeptic, but you're going a little too far.

You should always leave some room for doubt in your mind, as long as it isn't something that defies the laws of physics or something, because a strong belief in something that is unproven can possibly blind you to the truth.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I'm sorry, Moby and Moochie, but I'm with Senex on this one. I'm for tighter gun control but not at the expense of my Constitution.

And for your information, our Constitution is brilliant both because of the principles it upholds and the provisions for the future.

That's why it's lasted for three centuries and all of yours...have not :cool:

[Senex]

I askedOriginally Posted by Senex
More people die in Darfur, Iraq/other places harder to spell everyday. Why do people in Australia care so much about this occasion?

Mobyseven answered
Because as far as I'm aware, Australia still holds the record for the largest one-man gun massacre. Not a record we're particularly proud of, but by the same token not one we'd like to see surpassed.

I don't buy this as a record. I'm certain many sadistic individual soldiers mowed down hundreds of Chinese civilians in the late 1930's or early 1940's in a day (far beating your record) and many German soldiers shot down even more Jewish people during this same time period with one gun in an hour (again, surpassing your numbers). Children with guns in Africa often have at least challenged the numbers you point to. The day after those 30+ students died in Virginia 130+ people in Iraq died in car bombs. It seems to me you pick and choose the strangers you wish to mourn. Your massacre doesn't make this any clearer to me.


The Constitution is not some divine scripture. It is a legal document that reflects the time it was written in. But the times are changing, and there are systems in place that allow you to make alterations to the Constitution.

If you knew about the American constitution you would realize that it was so statistically improbable a document that could have been written at that time period that if you deprive it of 'divine' status then you make 'divine' a word that has no meaning.

The Constitution was never meant to be a static document - hell, that goes against the very idea of democracy. It is certainly very difficult to alter, but the provisions are there for a reason.

I would, if I were you, not treat an antique legal document in the same way as a fundamentalist treats their King James Version...it is, shall we say, somewhat disturbing.

Calling the American Constitution antique shows me that I need not argue with you any more. Even your life is better because of this antique document my friend. The improbability of the brilliant people who founded this country being together in power at the same time makes me proud to be a citizen of the US. :p

EeneyMinnieMoeI'm sorry, Moby and Moochie, but I'm with Senex on this one. I'm for tighter gun control but not at the expense of my Constitution.

And for your information, our Constitution is brilliant both because of the principles it upholds and the provisions for the future.

That's why it's lasted for three centuries and all of yours...have not

Foreigners:rolleyes:

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

High five, Senex. Well said.

You know, Bill Maher said this time and time again on both his shows after the trajedy and I'll say it again cause I agree with him: why do we pick and choose trajedies?! Americans and everyone else. Just going by the numbers, more people die every day in Iraq.

To quote Bill, "Thirty-two dead in Iraq is a good day."

Is it just that they're American? And not Iraqi?

[Mobyseven]

I'm sorry, Moby and Moochie, but I'm with Senex on this one. I'm for tighter gun control but not at the expense of my Constitution.

And for your information, our Constitution is brilliant both because of the principles it upholds and the provisions for the future.

That's why it's lasted for three centuries and all of yours...have not :cool:


Eeney...you're kidding, right? "...at the expense of [your] Constitution..."???

Why do you think that there are provisions IN the Constitution to CHANGE the Constitution? They aren't just there to look pretty - they're there because the people who drafted the Constitution knew that this wouldn't always be the same, that at some point in the future it may be necessary to change the Constitution.

I'm not saying, 'Gee, the US Constitution is a load of bollocks,' I'm pointing out that this "constitutional fanaticism" re not changing the Constitution completely goes against the Constitution itself!

Oh, and by the way - regarding your jab at the end: Both Moochie and I are Melbournites: Australian. Claiming superiority because your Constitution has lasted "three centuries" is both presumptuous and wrong.

Just because Australia has not been around for three centuries does not mean that we will have to adopt a new constitution before those three centuries are up. Things are going fine here, thank you very much.

And just so you know, the US Constitution has not been around for anywhere near three centuries. At the moment it's been in existance close to 220 years - lets get our facts right about the country you know and love, shall we?

Also, the idea of an unchanging Constitution is ridiculous when you realise that the part of the Consitution granting the 'right to bear arms' is itself an amendment to the US Constitution! So far there have been twenty-seven amendments to the US Constitution (from 1791 to 1992), and the right to bear arms is the second of those amendments.

In other words - if the Constitution was never meant to be changed, you wouldn't have the right to bear arms to begin with!

I don't buy this as a record. I'm certain many sadistic individual soldiers mowed down hundreds of Chinese civilians in the late 1930's or early 1940's in a day (far beating your record) and many German soldiers shot down even more Jewish people during this same time period with one gun in an hour (again, surpassing your numbers). Children with guns in Africa often have at least challenged the numbers you point to. The day after those 30+ students died in Virginia 130+ people in Iraq died in car bombs. It seems to me you pick and choose the strangers you wish to mourn. Your massacre doesn't make this any clearer to me.

Read what I said. One person, with guns. Not car bombs or similar. Drawing a comparison to child soldiers or the military is ridiculous: The people you speak of were not 'one person' alone, but were working as part of a group.

Don't try to take the 'moral high ground' by telling me that I am picking and choosing who I shall mourn. War is a horrible thing, and atrocities are committed, don't think I don't know this.

If you can find a report of ONE PERSON, ACTING ALONE who has killed more people WITH GUNS in ONE SHOOTING than the Port Arthur Massacre, I will withdraw my statement that it remains the biggest one man gun massacre in history. If all you have, however, is an uncorroborated "I'm certain..." then I would suggest that maybe you haven't done your research.

If you knew about the American constitution you would realize that it was so statistically improbable a document that could have been written at that time period that if you deprive it of 'divine' status then you make 'divine' a word that has no meaning.


divine (comparative more divine, superlative most divine)

of or pertaining to a god eternal, holy, or otherwise supernatural. of superhuman or surpassing excellence beautiful, heavenly



I would humbly suggest your understanding of the word 'divine' is a little bit off.

The Constitution is a legal document. It is an IMPORTANT legal document, to be sure, but it is none-the-less a legal document, in which provisions were made for the alteration of the document, should the need arise!

Calling the American Constitution antique shows me that I need not argue with you any more. Even your life is better because of this antique document my friend. The improbability of the brilliant people who founded this country being together in power at the same time makes me proud to be a citizen of the US. :p


I meant antique in the sense of it being 'old'...if you took it any other way, I apologise. If you're trying to say that it is not old...well, then I don't know what to say.

Being an Australian citizen I'd say that the American Constitution has very little of a day-to-day effect on my life.

If you are not in favour of gun control, that is your opinion. But I would suggest that you find a better justification for your opinion than just, "You can't mess with the Constitution."

To summarise again why this is:

The Constitution contains within it the provisions for amending the Constitution; The 'right to bear arms' is itself an amendment to the Constitution (i.e. If you the Constitution was never meant to be changed then you wouldn't have the 'right to bear arms' in the first place); and, The second amendment was drafted at a time when it would have been quite sensible for the citizens to have firearms, 'just in case' anything should happen. With a professional military force, this is no longer a necessary or sensible idea.


Peace Out

Mobyseven

[Moochie]

I'm sorry, Moby and Moochie, but I'm with Senex on this one. I'm for tighter gun control but not at the expense of my Constitution.

And for your information, our Constitution is brilliant both because of the principles it upholds and the provisions for the future.

That's why it's lasted for three centuries and all of yours...have not :cool:

Yeah, and the bible's lasted... how many centuries?

M.

[Senex]

Also, the idea of an unchanging Constitution is ridiculous when you realise that the part of the Consitution granting the 'right to bear arms' is itself an amendment to the US Constitution! So far there have been twenty-seven amendments to the US Constitution (from 1791 to 1992), and the right to bear arms is the second of those amendments.

In other words - if the Constitution was never meant to be changed, you wouldn't have the right to bear arms to begin with!


The first ten amendments to the American Constitution are commonly referred to as "The Bill of Rights." These amendments were added to our Constitution before the document was ratified. These ten amendments are different to subsequent amendments in that they were not voted on as changes to the existing document. If the document was frozen on the day it was ratified our right to bear arms will still be with us.


I would humbly suggest your understanding of the word 'divine' is a little bit off.

Originally Posted by Wiktionary
divine (comparative more divine, superlative most divine)

1) of or pertaining to a god
2) eternal, holy, or otherwise supernatural.
3) of superhuman or surpassing excellence
4) beautiful, heavenly

I think choice #3 fits perfectly.


Being an Australian citizen I'd say that the American Constitution has very little of a day-to-day effect on my life.

The Queen of England sailed down herself around 1901 to sign it for you into law didn't she? hehehe... we kicked that monarchy out in the 18th century over here -- paving the way for wannabe rascals like yourselves to follow. BTW - you have references to monarchy and sucession to the throne still in that more antique sounding document than our much older one does.

Darnell11: Senex, No, David Blane is a magician; it's clearly an illusion. Simon Cowell is not a magician, and American Idol has no reason to create illusions on the show. I doubt they care about politics. Really, a stupid comparison. It's good to be skeptic, but you're going a little too far.

My David Blaine comparison was made because Blaine once used a certain levitation technique on a national TV program. Without giving away any secrets, the method he used on the street prohibits his audience from seeing two feet of space between the bottom of his feet and the sidewalk. Blaine did the trick for the street audience and then edited in a television shot of himself several feet off the ground which he must have used a crane for on a different day with no audience -- an unethical thing in my opinion.

It's possible AI did a similar, later that day, edit (unlikely, but it doesn't matter because my point was the contestent mentioned VT to help gain votes, in my opinion, and I thought that was wrong.

Moochie:
Good post, Moby. Evidently Senex has been trying to beguile me with bogus references to Aussie "culture," but it hasn't worked.

You're beguiled, come on, admit it.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Across three centuries, I meant.

You missed my point- the significance of the Constitution lasting 200 plus years is that it's the foundation a system of government still functoning more than two centuries later, which among other things, is the oldest democracy in the world.

[Moochie]

You're beguiled, come on, admit it.

Yeah, but only a little bit, and not while anyone was looking.

M.

[Mobyseven]

The first ten amendments to the American Constitution are commonly referred to as "The Bill of Rights." These amendments were added to our Constitution before the document was ratified. These ten amendments are different to subsequent amendments in that they were not voted on as changes to the existing document. If the document was frozen on the day it was ratified our right to bear arms will still be with us.

June 21, 1788: United States Contitution ratified.

March 4, 1789: Government under the Constitution began.

September, 1789: First twelve amendments to the Constitution proposed by Congress. Numbers 3-12 were the Bill of Rights.

Circa December, 1791: Bill of Rights was ratified and became part of the Constitution.

Senex, with all due respect, what you have said is entirely wrong. Were the United States Constitution to have been frozen on the day it was ratified, you would most certainly not have the right to bear arms.

3) of superhuman or surpassing excellence
I think choice #3 fits perfectly.

So you don't think the Consititution should ever be changed in any way?

Bollocks, it is a legal document, with real, legal ramifications. Let's take a look at how the USA would be a different place if the Constitution were frozen at the moment of ratification:

No freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly and freedom of petition (First Amendment); No right to bear arms (Second Amendment); No protection from searches, arrests, and seizures of property without a warrant or a "probable cause" to believe a crime has been committed (Fouth Amendment); No prohibition against double jeopardy and punishment without due process of law (Fifth Amendment); No guarantee of a speedy public trial for criminal offenses, no requirement of trial by a jury, no right to legal counsel for the accused, no right for the accused to know the charges against him/her (Sixth Amendment); No Miranda rights (Fifth + Sixth Amendments); and, No prohibition on excessive bail or fines. No prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment (Eighth Amendment);



And that is just from the Bill of Rights. If we continue onto some of the other amendments that have been passed (as recently as 1992) America becomes an even more different place to live. Lets have a look:

No prohibition on slavery (Thirteenth Amendment); No prohibition on preventing citizens from voting based on colour or race (Fifteenth Amendment); No income tax (Sixteenth Amendment); There would have been no Prohibition (Eighteenth Amendement), which could never have been repealed (Twenty-First Amendment); No prohibition on preventing citizens from voting based on gender (Nineteenth Amendment); The POTUS would not be limited to two terms in office (Twenty-Second Amendment); No prohibition on preventing citizens from voting based on their tax-payer status (Twenty-Fourth Amendment); No prohibition on preventing citizens over the age of eighteen from voting based on their age (Twenty-Sixth Amendment); and, No limits on congressional pay rises (Twenty-Seventh Amendment).



So then, if your Constitution is so 'divine', why has it been amended so many times? And why could the second amendment not be repealed?

The second amendment is from a time when the citizens bearing arms was a part of having, "A well regulated Militia, [...] necessary to the security of a free State," was relevant. The USA, now protected by arguably the most powerful military force in the world, no longer requires a citizen based fighting force, as it did back then.

The Queen of England sailed down herself around 1901 to sign it for you into law didn't she?

...no.

She had to provide royal assent to the act, just like she would any other act of parliament. She didn't have to do it in Australia though.

hehehe... we kicked that monarchy out in the 18th century over here -- paving the way for wannabe rascals like yourselves to follow.

Congratulations on your inability to diplomatically settle your differences with the UK. Honestly, if I thought all Americans were as arrogant as you I'd have no trouble imagining why most of the world seems to hate you - luckily, I know better.

If you take a look at the Australian Constitution, you'll notice that it doesn't base itself on the US Constitution. "Wannabe rascals" indeed...

BTW - you have references to monarchy and sucession to the throne still in that more antique sounding document than our much older one does.

So? What exactly would you expect to find in the Australian Constitution, a discourse on beer?

Besides which, as wonderful a derail you attempt at attacking the Australian Constitution was, I'd like to point out that we're talking about the US Constitution here...I for one am not claiming perfection in the Constitution of my country, as you are doing.

[Mobyseven]

Across three centuries, I meant.

I did gather that you might have meant that...but I'm a compulsive nit-picker... :p

You missed my point- the significance of the Constitution lasting 200 plus years is that it's the foundation a system of government still functoning more than two centuries later, which among other things, is the oldest democracy in the world.

So?

You act as though the Constitution has never been amended - noone here is suggesting that you amend any part of the Constitution that relates to the function of government or changes the principles of democracy on which the Constitution is based.

The Second Amendment (once again, note that this was itself an amendment to the original document) states that:


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


As the USA now has a professional military force to protect it, does it really need a "well regulated Militia" of citizens with guns anymore?

[Senex]

Besides which, as wonderful a derail you attempt at attacking the Australian Constitution was, I'd like to point out that we're talking about the US Constitution here...I for one am not claiming perfection in the Constitution of my country, as you are doing.

Mobyseven, as much as I know about the American Bill of Rights and the Constitution I no longer wish to argue this point any more than I wish to continue mentioning the daily car bomb death toll in Iraq. The first isn't interesting to most people and the second is distasteful. Let's let this thread die unless someone wants to discuss the on-topic issue of disingenuous best wishes to victims.

[Moochie]

Mobyseven, as much as I know about the American Bill of Rights and the Constitution I no longer wish to argue this point any more than I wish to continue mentioning the daily car bomb death toll in Iraq. The first isn't interesting to most people and the second is distasteful. Let's let this thread die unless someone wants to discuss the on-topic issue of disingenuous best wishes to victims.

And let's not overlook "noone" for "no one." Yecch!

M.

[Senex]

And let's not overlook "noone" for "no one." Yecch!

M.

Yeah! You tell him, he thinks he has nothing to learn from anyone, yet an American ;)

[Moochie]

Spill a little beer on your keyboard and the space bar sticks and the rascals come out and make fun.

It's been my experience that the people who point such things out are the next to make mistakes ;)

Typos? I make them all the time (I'm a three-fingered typist), but since Firefox has a running spell-checker, I have no real excuse to let them stand.

The substitution of "noone" for "no one" is a personal gripe. It's seldom a typo.

M.

[Senex]

Typos? I make them all the time (I'm a three-fingered typist), but since Firefox has a running spell-checker, I have no real excuse to let them stand.

The substitution of "noone" for "no one" is a personal gripe. It's seldom a typo.

M.

You act as though the Constitution has never been amended - noone here is suggesting that you amend any part of the Constitution that relates to the function of government or changes the principles of democracy on which the Constitution is based.

Hehehehe... I didn't wite this. It's one of those commies you come across on-line now and them. Maybe I'll report him ;)

[Moochie]

Hehehehe... I didn't wite this. It's one of those commies you come across on-line now and them. Maybe I'll report him ;)

Oh, you thought my comment was aimed at you? Silly sausage. :D

M.

[Mobyseven]

Mobyseven, as much as I know about the American Bill of Rights and the Constitution I no longer wish to argue this point any more than I wish to continue mentioning the daily car bomb death toll in Iraq. The first isn't interesting to most people and the second is distasteful. Let's let this thread die unless someone wants to discuss the on-topic issue of disingenuous best wishes to victims.

We can split the topic to another thread, if you'd prefer. I, personally, was hoping for some sort of a reply to the points I raised, but if you'd rather not then I suppose we can let it die...

And let's not overlook "noone" for "no one." Yecch!

M.

D'oh!!! "noone" is one of my pet hates! Can't believe I let that one slip through the ranks... :blush:

[Senex]

We can split the topic to another thread, if you'd prefer. I, personally, was hoping for some sort of a reply to the points I raised, but if you'd rather not then I suppose we can let it die...



D'oh!!! "noone" is one of my pet hates! Can't believe I let that one slip through the ranks... :blush:

You're right. You deserve a reply and we can do it in another place that is more appropriate. It's 8PM god's time but I will post a fair thread on "The Latest Commentary Issues" forum before you awake tomorrow. I'm self -conscious about having a thread everyone rolls their eyes when they see at the top of the page they could care less about. Fewer people post on that forum.

Let's impose on those poor readers.

[Piggy]

Is "Drinking the koolaid" actually a figure of speech in the States?

Yes. "Drank the Kool-Aid" is a figure of speech for someone who has accepted an ideology and will follow it come what may.

[Mobyseven]

You're right. You deserve a reply and we can do it in another place that is more appropriate. It's 8PM god's time but I will post a fair thread on "The Latest Commentary Issues" forum before you awake tomorrow. I'm self -conscious about having a thread everyone rolls their eyes when they see at the top of the page they could care less about. Fewer people post on that forum.

Let's impose on those poor readers.

Haha...poor them. Many thanks by the way...may sound odd, but this is a subject that interests me.

I can't help but feel it will be moved to the politics subforum though...

Sleep well...I should point out that as it's only 10.30am here I will likely see your reply before the day is out!

Peace Out

Mobyseven


(You may now return to your scheduled programming.)