Gay Teachers

[Fade]

We are strange creatures. Often, we require tragedy, or great loss to understand and accept others.

A friend of mine works as a Psychology, Speech, and Debate teacher at a local highschool. He is well respected among the community, and known as quite possibly the best high school level debate teacher in the state.

He is also openly gay.

One day a student decided that he wanted to start a Gay/Straight Student Alliance, in order to promote greater tolerance in the school. As progressive as Washington is, outside of Seattle-proper, it's often social suicide to be openly gay as a teenager. This student was barred, twice, from starting this organization, even after fulfilling every single requirement.

Time passes.

A well respected student within the school, I believe their student body president, goes home one day and comes out of the closet to his parents. His father all but kicks him out on the street.

Later that day, he dies by his own hand.

The following week, my aforementioned teacher friend is approached and asked if he could help start up a gay/straight student alliance.

I suppose sometimes we require cruelty to see love, and need pain to find acceptance. A more foul trick nature has never devised.

[Eos of the Eons]

Gay teachers get fired in my province. Especially if they are teaching in a catholic school...even if the teacher never told anyone and never talked about it in the school. He just gets found out and fired. The courts uphold the decision, and the teacher has to go look for work.

At the same time a guy smokes dope on the City Hall steps to promote the legalization of marijuana and noone bats an eye.

The papers fill up with letters to the editor saying it was great the teacher was fired, and gays are evil and it's a bad choice to be gay. A preacher who works with 'troubled youth' condemns the gay agenda and writes that the war against the gay agenda is on.

Sigh. I hate my city and my province.

[Fade]

Do you live in Alberta?

[Eos of the Eons]

Gee, how did you guess :roll: :( :wink:

[Fade]

From now on let us simply refer to it as Texlberta.

[Eos of the Eons]

Hmm, I didn't know texans had some of the same policies. It's the guns instead of the legalized pot though, right?

Okay, found the anti-gay stuff on homosexual marriages...

The Texas Triangle, a Dallas-based gay newspaper, reported on some of the tactics used by an anti-gay group during the debate on DOMA. Members of the Constitution Party of Texas, formerly known as the American Taxpayer Party, brandished signs in public that read “No Homo Marriage.”

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=3550


When an amendment defining marriage as only between a man and a woman was added to a bill governing marriage and property rights, openly gay Rep. Glen Maxey called it “reprehensible” and “a poke in the eye to gays and lesbians.” Maxey said that the amendment sponsor wanted a roll call rather than voice vote simply to use as political fodder. He claimed that the amendment was an attempt by the Religious Right to generate a party-line vote that could be used in 2002 campaign literature against Democrats. Maxey urged his fellow Democrats to vote for the amendment, which then passed unanimously.

“These amendments have no real legislative impact and were simply desperate attempts to ensure some level of anti-gay marriage language,” the executive director of the Lesbian and Gay Rights Lobby of Texas said. “This was an indication of the level of frustration on the part of extreme right-wing groups at not being able to pass a full Defense of Marriage Act.”




Yep, Texlberta sounds just about perfect.

[Fade]

Texas is against civil rights, unless you're talking about guns or hate speech.

[Eos of the Eons]

Yep, Alberta is against civil rights, unless you're talking about marijuana or hate speech. They call it 'freedom of speech' here though.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Fade
Texas is against civil rights, unless you're talking about guns or hate speech.

You dont have a fukkin clue. Do you live here? have you spent a lot of time here?

On what do you base your opinion?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Yep, Alberta is against civil rights, unless you're talking about marijuana or hate speech. They call it 'freedom of speech' here though.

"Hate speech" is free speech.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Tony


"Hate speech" is free speech.

You are a nasty arsehole and I would encourage people to kill you for the good of all mankind.

[reprise]

Thanks for posting that Fade.

It makes me appreciate all the more that my children have been taught by openly gay teachers at public schools since kindergarten. Their choice of music has been far more of an issue with their students than their sexuality. :D

[Tony]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


You are a nasty arsehole

Just the way you like it.


..and I would encourage people to kill you for the good of all mankind.

Be careful, you're engaging in hate speech.

[Fade]

Oh, sorry Tony, I forgot about all those times when Texans and their lawmakers took up the banner of equal rights in favour of women, minorities, and homosexuals.


Hate Speech is "free speech," I suppose. I certainly don't wish to limit what a person can say. I just find it a little ... off, that the only rights I hear Texans screeching about are their rights to keep guns, and say hateful things.

Not that I think they are wrong to want those things, just odd that little else is of major concern.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Tony


Just the way you like it.


..and I would encourage people to kill you for the good of all mankind.

Be careful, you're engaging in hate speech.

free speach according to you.

KILL TONY
KILL TONY!!
KILL TONY!!!!!

[Tony]

Originally posted by Fade
Oh, sorry Tony, I forgot about all those times when Texans and their lawmakers took up the banner of equal rights in favour of women, minorities, and homosexuals.




That has no bearing what-so-ever on how those particulaur individuals are treated. (in houston at least)

FYI-Houston has one of the largest gay populations in the country

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Tony


"Hate speech" is free speech.


If you note my sarcasm, I already said that.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons



If you note my sarcasm, I already said that.

Noted. :halo:

[Fade]

Originally posted by Tony



That has no bearing what-so-ever on how those particulaur individuals are treated. (in houston at least)

FYI-Houston has one of the largest gay populations in the country

What does this have to do with what I have said? Texas law has been fiscally anti-progress, and downright draconian in it's law enforcement. Texas is an embarassement to the union, and the only people that don't see this are the people that live there.

[Eos of the Eons]

Yes, and Texas still fines gay people for having sex...I have to find that story...

200 Dollar Fine

The case concerns a pair of homosexuals in Houston, condemned to a fine in 1998, in the wake of a denunciation. An informant told the police that he had "an armed man going crazy" in his apartment. When the police arrived, they found nothing in the place except that they took by surprise a pair of men making love. John Lawrence and Tyron Garner paid a fine of 200 dollars each for having violated the anti-sodomy law of Texas. (1) At the same time, gay rights groups found here an ideal case to take to the Supreme court. They hope that the Court will finally place the right to privacy for adults above states' rights to autonomy.



http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/hyper-lists/clas_lgb/2003/0035.html


Have any other states fined gay people for having sex in the last 20 years?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Fade


Texas law has been fiscally anti-progress

WTF does "fiscally anti-progress" mean?

and downright draconian in it's law enforcement.

evidence?

Texas is an embarassement to the union, and the only people that don't see this are the people that live there.

Yeah, all 25 million of us, how many people does your pathetic state have?

It's apparent, that on a national scale, Texas has a lot more clout and power than Washington. And trust me, the tree huggers, sniveling socialists and environment wackos in Washington are much more of an embarrassment.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Yes, and Texas still fines gay people for having sex...I have to find that story...



http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/hyper-lists/clas_lgb/2003/0035.html


Have any other states fined gay people for having sex in the last 20 years?


Wasnt that the case that was over turned by the supreme court recently?

Besides all states have archaic dumb laws (http://www.dumblaws.com/states/index.html). Texas isnt special in that regard.

[UnrepentantSinner]

To be fair "Constitution Party of Texas, formerly known as the American Taxpayer Party" this group is a rabidly pro-theocracy movement that is on the farthest fringes of the right.

I sent for a copy of the US Taxpayers Party (as the group was properly called) party platform. Let's just say they picked and chose from Leviticus what matched their agenda then sprinkled in some xenophobia and isolationism. There you have it, domestic and foreign policy summarized in a 45 page booklet.

They're a marginal group with very few supporters and no political clout in this state or any other that I'm aware of.

[Tony]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
To be fair "Constitution Party of Texas, formerly known as the American Taxpayer Party" this group is a rabidly pro-theocracy movement that is on the farthest fringes of the right.




EEwww, they couldn't have chosen a worse name. Its pretty sh**ty of them to tarnish the constitution like that.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

You are a nasty arsehole and I would encourage people to kill you for the good of all mankind.

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

free speach according to you.

KILL TONY
KILL TONY!!
KILL TONY!!!!!

This is a violation of the Forum rules. Stop it.

[hal bidlack]

this forum does not allow folks to threaten each other. Those that have done so above must clarify their comments at once or risk sanction.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Fade
Oh, sorry Tony, I forgot about all those times when Texans and their lawmakers took up the banner of equal rights in favour of women, minorities, and homosexuals.


Hate Speech is "free speech," I suppose. I certainly don't wish to limit what a person can say. I just find it a little ... off, that the only rights I hear Texans screeching about are their rights to keep guns, and say hateful things.

Not that I think they are wrong to want those things, just odd that little else is of major concern.

Speaking of hate speech, would you mind ceasing the slander against Texans? Does the word "stereotyping" mean anything to you? I would think you'd be against it.

There are thoughtful, intelligent people in Texas. Many of us. We get outvoted most of the time.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Sundog


There are thoughtful, intelligent people in Texas. Many of us. We get outvoted most of the time.

:roll: :roll:

What a joke.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Tony


:roll: :roll:

What a joke.

You'll probably find the board more enjoyable by putting me on ignore. I doubt if we have much to discuss.

[Fade]

Originally posted by Sundog


Speaking of hate speech, would you mind ceasing the slander against Texans? Does the word "stereotyping" mean anything to you? I would think you'd be against it.

There are thoughtful, intelligent people in Texas. Many of us. We get outvoted most of the time.

I never said "all texans" now did I?

Also, 'slander' would imply a given thing is untrue.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Fade


I never said "all texans" now did I?

Also, 'slander' would imply a given thing is untrue.

Yes. "Texans" means by default, ALL Texans. If you want to slander SOME Texans, you have to indicate that. That's the way plurals work in English.

Your remarks ARE untrue and are an obviously unfair generalization about the good people of Texas. As I said, I would have thought you in particular would be more sensitive to how stupid it is to generalize about a certain group of people.

[Yahweh]

Back on topic...

I dont have any problems with gay teachers. But students dont usually think in the same way I do. Some students have a tendency to become very vocal and abusive because someone else's lifestyle conflicts with what he believes. For the safety and sake of the teachers, I think it'd be best if they remained on a "dont tell" policy.

At work is a gay Math teacher. He's never once said he's gay to the students. But, constantly I hear the kids making little jokes about his "gayitude". I have to remind the kids "Whether or not he's gay or straight, the school has a strict 'Be tolerant' policy, and I dont think Mr. [Teacher] would be too happy if he heard you demeaning him in such a way". As far as the math teacher is concerned, he's a smart guy, introverted, and an overall nice fella.

[Kilted_Canuck]

A math teacher at my highschool, i believe is openly gay. He is...the stereotypical homosexual, and jokes were made his expense until a student harrassed him to his face, and he exploded, saying 'yes, I am. Do you have a problem with that?", now, we (the smarter kids), have a newfound respect for him. The dumb kids still make jokes, but ending that is like stopping the earth from spinning.

[Jon_in_london]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jon_in_london

You are a nasty arsehole and I would encourage people to kill you for the good of all mankind.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jon_in_london

free speach according to you.

KILL TONY
KILL TONY!!
KILL TONY!!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is a violation of the Forum rules. Stop it.



Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

08-08-2003 11:55 AM



hal bidlack
Forum Administrator

Registered: Jul 2001
Location:
Posts: 23
this forum does not allow folks to threaten each other. Those that have done so above must clarify their comments at once or risk sanction.


Of course, I was simply trying to point out that hate speach is not equal to freedom of speach.

I obviously support the right to free speach but not incitment to vioence. However, Tony stated above that free speach=hate speach so I posted some nasties about him so he can see how he likes it.

Will deleted posts if asked to by mods.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Of course, I was simply trying to point out that hate speach is not equal to freedom of speach.

I
Of course you're right. The people in my city seem to think that they should have the freedom of hate speech. Judging from the reaction of the mods, saying someone should die is not freedom of speech. Try explaining the difference to the idiots all around me here...I can call them idiots because they say gays are evil. Do unto others. I'm of course 'part of the gay agenda' for defending people who are different from heteros.

I should write a letter to the local paper saying that if people can say gays are evil and an abomination in that paper, I should be able to say christians are close minded discriminating hatemongerers.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons

Of course you're right.


He's not right, "hate speech" is free speech.


Of course, I was simply trying to point out that hate speach is not equal to freedom of speach.


You failed miserably, and you came across as immature and stupid.

Care to explain how you think you pointed out that "hate speech" is not equal to free speech?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


I obviously support the right to free speach but not incitment to vioence.


You're moving the goal post now. Incitement to violence and "hate speech" are completely different things.

[Peach Jr.]

Do I have a problem with gay teachers potentially teaching The Littlest Peach? No, absolutely not. If a teacher is doing his/her job correctly, their sexual orientation should not be an issue. At all.

Have I ever known any gay teachers? Yes. A drama teacher in jr. high, and a music teacher in high school. In both cases, their sexual orientation was completely unrelated to their job (and unlike some of the teachers in high school, could be trusted to be left alone with students).

(edited to add) Fade, I'm sorry to hear that a student's tragic death was what it took to make much-needed changes for others. That's really awful.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Tony



He's not right, "hate speech" is free speech.


Care to explain how you think you pointed out that "hate speech" is not equal to free speech?



Actually I do feel he is right when he says hate speech is not equal to free speech. Hate speech should not be allowed. If that were the case then Tony would have a lot less to say :D

Hate speech and misinformation should not be allowed when it comes to freedom of speech. Hurting others should not be a 'right'.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons



Actually I do feel he is right when he says hate speech is not equal to free speech.

Yet, you give nothing to back up your position. "Hate" speech most definitely is free speech. I have the right to say what I want no matter how immoral or disgusting.

Hate speech should not be allowed.

Why?

The constitution guarantees free speech; to claim that there should be restrictions on speech is repugnant. If you want censorship, I suggest you move to egypt or china.

Hate speech and misinformation should not be allowed when it comes to freedom of speech.

Why?

Hurting others should not be a 'right'.

How utterly stupid.

If you are hurt by free speech, YOU have the problem.

[Eos of the Eons]

No, hate speech leads to action. Action hurts. Teaching people to hate is harmful. The actual words of course don't shoot you, but people who hate others do. Slander is not allowed, and hate speech is a form of slander.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
No, hate speech leads to action.

No it doesnt, very few people who hear "hate" speech resort to action.

Action hurts.

Then punish the action.

Slander is not allowed

Evidence?

Slander is not against the law, but you can be sued for it if it is proven that the person you slandered has been hurt financially.

I cite the Jerry Fallwell vs. Larry Flynt case as an example.

hate speech is a form of slander.

Who is being slandered by "hate" speech?

[Eos of the Eons]

Gay people are accused of having a 'gay agenda' in hate speach. If that isn't slander, then it should be. People get discriminated against. That can cost people jobs and any other number of 'priviledges'.

Lots of people who hear hate speech take action when they believe it. If they can't hear the lies, then how can they hate?


An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I don't want to have action to punish.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Gay people are accused of having a 'gay agenda' in hate speach.

Gimme a break, there most definitely is a gay agenda.

You're just a coward and sniveling crybaby that can’t handle it when someone dares insults you or your lifestyle.

If that isn't slander, then it should be.

And I guess saying that conservatives have a conservative agenda should be slander too?

People get discriminated against. That can cost people jobs and any other number of 'priviledges'.

Then punish the discrimination.

Lots of people who hear hate speech take action when they believe it.

Evidence?

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I don't want to have action to punish.

So you want to sacrifice freedoms for security? John Ashcroft would love you, you guys think the same way.

[Eos of the Eons]

Evidence. The KKK and it's members are evidence of those who hear drivel and then sign up to propogate more drivel and actions to put minorities in their place.

What is the gay agenda? Acceptance. That's not an agenda, that's a human right to exist without prejudice.

I don't know of any 'conservative agenda' either. In fact I hate the word agenda. It's not a specific description.

Like I said. Hate speech shouldn't be a 'freedom'. Not being able to say you wish someone was dead in a public forum is a 'freedom' I would not like to have, so yeah, sacrifice the freedom to hurt others. We get jailed for hurting people physically. You are also wrong to hurt others with lies and idiotic hate speech. If someone can prove that the crap you are saying is untrue, then it shouldn't be allowed to be presented in a public forum like a newspaper or a speech to a group.

Freedom of speech is fine as long as it doesn't put down someone for just having a different skin color or religion. Calling someone a thief when they aren't shouldn't allowed either. That is why the word 'allegedly' is used until someone is convicted.

You can't convict someone for being gay or for having a different amount of pigment in their skin. Hurting others should never be a freedom. I don't care if it's physically or not.

Sure you can punish discriminating against someone by not giving them a job. We should also be able to punish discrimination by hate speech as well. Then the KKK would finally be stopped. Organized hate is ridiculous, and it's ridiculous to keep allowing it. It's not allowed in schools. It shouldn't be allowed in society either.

We are not talking about infringing on people's rights here. We are talking about allowing people to live their lives without having a group of people saying they are evil and should leave the country. Harrassing others is not a right that anyone needs to have.

It's like the cigarrette issue. What about my right not to have that crap around me. I'm allergic to cigarrette smoke and had to quit jobs to get away from it.

What if I organize a group of people that hate people that think hate speech should be a right? Then we put out pamphlets and such. We make up web sites. Then you'd have millions of people that want to lynch Tony. You get snide comments insulting you from people you don't even know. You never did anything to them. You find that you have a much harder time getting a job or renting a place to live. That doesn't matter. We all hate you. You deserve the resulting hardships.

How nice would that be? I think you'd want some way to get people off your back. Your views are fine. Saying you want the right to hate others and let them know it is fine. It's not fine to actually start saying you hate someone for being different than you and start trying to get others to hate them too by organizing a group to speak your ignorant hate to. That's a line that shouldn't be crossed.

What if someone organized a group against single moms? They wirte ignorant things like "they are all sluts" and "we don't want them influencing our kids". I don't think they have a right to start printing up pamphlets and recruiting others to spread the words.

I'm saying people have a right not to be harrassed like that. I don't care if you don't agree. Just don't go around saying I should die because of my viewpoint.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
I'm saying people have a right not to be harrassed like that. I don't care if you don't agree. Just don't go around saying I should die because of my viewpoint.

I consider your motives laudable but your views on free speech dangerously naive. What's to stop, say, an extreme right wing government from using these ideas to protect them? What if Bill O'Reilly can sue me for hurting his feelings? What if Fox could sue me for calling them a group of right-wing zealots?

Let your imagination roam free for a moment and think about how these seemingly-innocent alterations to free speech could be abused by those in power.

Free speech is not without its price, and it's a high one. Anything else is even pricier. You need to think about just how awful a place this would become if your ideas were the norm.

[Eos of the Eons]

I'm trying to think of that. I'm just trying to say People shouldn't not have the right to say something that is untrue and try to say others are evil for that untruth.

You only pulled a snippet of my whole post. I don't think anyone can protect themselves from actual truth. What would an extreme right gov't say to protect themselves from an actual truth? I shouldn't be able to call even them evil for wearing blue uniforms or having short hair. I'm sure a line can be drawn between truth and something that isn't true.

I can't say "all people with short hair are evil" and then therefore say "all conservative right wing members should be killed because they have short and that makes them evil". Blatant mistruth there.

I'm finding that hate speech being called free speech comes at too high a price.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons

We are not talking about infringing on people's rights here.

That’s exactly what you are talking about, you want to infringe on the right of free speech and people's right to hate and their right to voice that hate.

What if I organize a group of people that hate people that think hate speech should be a right? Then we put out pamphlets and such. We make up web sites. Then you'd have millions of people that want to lynch Tony.

Why do you think I have an arsenal of guns? Precisely to protect my rights from authoritarian idiots like you.

You get snide comments insulting you from people you don't even know. You never did anything to them. You find that you have a much harder time getting a job or renting a place to live. That doesn't matter. We all hate you. You deserve the resulting hardships.

You are obviously too emotional about this issue to look at it objectivly. Drop the baggage.

What if someone organized a group against single moms? They wirte ignorant things like "they are all sluts" and "we don't want them influencing our kids". I don't think they have a right to start printing up pamphlets and recruiting others to spread the words.

Well, they do have that right, and there is really nothing you could do about it.

[Sundog]

Whoa, Tony, we agree on something. How about that? :D

[Eos of the Eons]

Naw, I'm not emotional. I just thought I needed to get my point across more. Name calling is stupid, and makes name callers look like idiots. Like you said though, if it bothers me that's my problem.

Any ways, one point is that I would rather know the bad things people were thinking so that maybe something can be done about it.

But I do have the freedom to say that I wish people didn't have the right to call people idiots. :p

[Tony]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons


But I do have the freedom to say that I wish people didn't have the right to call people idiots. :p


And I have the freedom to call the people that wish people didnt have the right to call people idiots, idiots. :D :p

[Tony]

Originally posted by Sundog
Whoa, Tony, we agree on something. How about that? :D

Light up a doob and pass it.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Tony



And I have the freedom to call the people that wish people didnt have the right to call people idiots, idiots. :D :p


Umm, I guess this discussion couldn't get any more idiotic :D

Can anyone get us back on topic?

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Name calling is stupid, and makes name callers look like idiots.

This has got to be up for the logic award!

[Eos of the Eons]

:D I did that on purpose!

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet


This has got to be up for the logic award!

This has got to be up for the Ostrich Award! ;) :p

Welcome!

[WildCat]

When I was in 5th grade, we had a gay English teacher. He wasn't openly gay (this was in 1976), but everyone (students and parents) knew it by his mannerisms. And nobody cared, he was one of the best teachers in the school and everyone liked him. He would read Roald Dahl's "Danny, Champion of the World" to us in a perfect English accent. Too bad all the teachers there weren't as good. And I'm not aware of any student "turning gay" because of him.

[Brown]

In grade school, one of my male science teachers was very effeminate, and he was something of a laughingstock because of it. I never saw him act inappropriately with any students, neither was i aware of any rumors that he did so. Nevertheless, students outside his class mocked him because of his mannerisms.

Fast forward ahead by fifteen years. I was coaching a group of junior high schoolers, and I overhear them mentioning one of their science teachers of the same name. Could it be the same guy? Unlikely, I thought. The kids attended a strictly Catholic school (not the same school I attended), and it seemed unlikely to me that this school would hire someone who was so flagrantly effeminate. Besides, the kids were discussing the content of the course, not the mannerisms of the teacher.

But I asked the kids anyway.

"You know, I had a science teacher named Mr. ____ when I was your age," I said. "But I don't think that your teacher and my teacher are the same guy. The teacher I had, well, he acted... you know.. like he was gay."

All of the students' faces lit up and they broke into laughter. "That's him!" they all said. They were apparently not permitted to speculate openly about his sexual orientation, but it was quite clear that they did so in private.

[Tony]

I dont think I had any gay teachers, but I think my sophmore biology teacher was a lesbian.

[Eos of the Eons]

Only in your fantasies

[Tony]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Only in your fantasies


I didnt want to say this at the risk of sounding "insensitive", but this woman was a fat butch dike. Not very attractive at all.

[KelvinG]

Looking back now, I can think of at least three of my teachers that may very well have been gay.
However, having grown up in a small redneck prairie town, I didn't really believed gay people existed. They were sort of like leprechauns.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Tony



I didnt want to say this at the risk of sounding "insensitive", but this woman was a fat butch dike. Not very attractive at all.

LOL! I was just kidding, sorta, anyway. Most guys like the thought of two women together. I guess even her and another girl together would still be unappealing.