agnostic teen

[LibraryLady]

I don't usually venture into this forum, but this (http://www.tmsfeatures.com/tmsfeatures/subcategory.jsp?catid=1843&custid=67) caught my eye and I wondered what you all thought of Amy's advice.

[kellyb]

Seems reasonable to me.

[Kochanski]

Yes, for a teen placed on the spot, that is good advice. Those are words I could say and mean. I hope the teen finds some friends who can support her and I hope her family learns to respect her choice.

[Rasmus]

I am not sure what to think.

First of all, it is a question of honesty on several levels.
I want to be honest about my beliefs and not say grace when I don't mean it. But lying to my grandparents seems okay?

I see a potential problem there.

Also, thanking the farmers and truck drivers and supermarket employees is not what is being asked of the kid here. So this type of response might also lead to unpleasent results.

Finally, not wanting to say grace should be accepted even by grandparents. So the main descision here should be how much one is willing to tolerate. That seems to be a good basis to find an answer from to me.

[tkingdoll]

Agony Aunt columns rarely have genuine letters. They are written to reflect current or generic problems, so although the question and response might seem very specific, if you read between the lines it's actually just general guidelines that can be adapted to any similar situation. Agony Aunt columns are often a good reflection of media coverage of teen issues, so I would hazard that teen atheism/agnosticism is a hot topic in the USA at the moment. The recent Catholic Mom video is likely to have triggered debate and rebellion in many households.

I think the response was quite fair if you accept that old people shouldn't be upset as though they are 3-year-olds believe in Santa. Personally, I don't subscribe to that position but billions of people do.

I'd be interested to see the tactic in practice though. I suspect there's a fair amount "my house, my rules" mentality in many homesteads which is pretty much impossible to counter if you are too young to move out.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Seems reasonable to me.

Me 2.

[juryjone]

I was lucky in that my parents didn't get religion (to the point of saying grace) until long after I left home. Now there are plenty of children and grandchildren that are happy to say grace and I'm not required to do anything but bow my head and stare at the tablecloth.

However, her answer seems to me to be the same thing as refusing to say grace. If she thinks that most religious people would be satisfied with that "secular prayer" and not immediately call into question the motives of the speaker, she's got another think coming.

[Charlie Monoxide]

Something similar to this happened to me. I was at a luncheon to celebrate the end of a project I've been working on for the last 2 years. The people there comprised of the various professional project members (me in this group), and the client's (Florida utility) employees. It was a catered affair and after some preliminary speeches grace was given by someone (lots of god references).

I just sat there looking ahead while everyone bowed their head. I really felt uncomfortable, but I didn't want to make a scene (ie standing up and leaving the room). I don't think religious people can empathize with non-believers (brights!) or non-christians. Still, a free lunch is a free lunch.

Charlie (Bart: oh lord why should we thank you, we paid for this meal) Monoxide

[slingblade]

Agony Aunt columns rarely have genuine letters.

I hate to do this to you, Teek, but...how do I know that's so? :covereyes

As to the issue of the letter and the response, I suppose the solution presented is as good as any. Although, just to be a b**** about it, I might go so far as to respond:

Dear Troubled Teen:

Many people find they have to fight for their beliefs. Grandparents are particularly susceptible to a head-lock move. Hiding their dentures is also effective, but considered "dirty pool" by purists. Good luck.

[tkingdoll]

I hate to do this to you, Teek, but...how do I know that's so? :covereyes



You don't know it's so. It doesn't make any difference if they're genuine or not though, so there's no problem if you choose not to believe me. But you should remember that the letters and responses are published, and therefore need to attract as many readers as possible. What's the best way of guaranteeing a topical, er, topic every week?

Hint: I worked in the media for many years :D

[strathmeyer]

Has praying to Mars gone out of style?

[Ichneumonwasp]

WHile Joseph Campbell interpreted mythology in a peculiar way that has not stood up to scrutiny, I think he had a good response to this sort of problem. What's wrong with saying thanks to the universe for sustenance? It's reverent and shouldn't be against anyone's beliefs. You needn't see the universe in personal terms to offer such a message.

[Kopji]

"Thank you to the farmers who grew the food that we are about to eat.

"Thank you to those who prepared this meal, which looks and smells delicious.

"And thank you to family members who have gathered today to enjoy this meal together."


Meh, seems a little silly to me. Sorta like:

'Thank you Colonel Sanders for this bucket of chicken we are about to partake, and to ConArga, for bringing it to market in a timely way. To the teamsters not present, may their engines always be well oiled.

'so be it'

Humm. In the best sense a prayer would be a kind of meditation or reflection.

maybe:

We take this moment to gratefully reflect on the ties that bind us as a family. We are reminded by the different textures, colors, and even aromas, that we are something more together than when apart. May this thankful attitude remain with us as we continue to share in this meal together.

[Seismosaurus]

Offer to say grace, then say something like "For this wonderful meal, and for everything else good in life, we thank the dark lord Satan and all his demons."

On the down side, there will be a huge scene. But on the up side, you'll never get asked to say grace again.

[skeptifem]

I am not sure what to think.

First of all, it is a question of honesty on several levels.
I want to be honest about my beliefs and not say grace when I don't mean it. But lying to my grandparents seems okay?

I see a potential problem there.

Also, thanking the farmers and truck drivers and supermarket employees is not what is being asked of the kid here. So this type of response might also lead to unpleasent results.

Finally, not wanting to say grace should be accepted even by grandparents. So the main descision here should be how much one is willing to tolerate. That seems to be a good basis to find an answer from to me.


i just bow my head. i forgot how to say grace anyway, but really, they are so mean to family members who do something unchristian. im not gonna put up with that.

[RandFan]

I'm an atheist. At family gatherings I often say secular feel good prayers to avoid drama and contention. I also tell women that the pants they are trying on don't make their butts look fat for the same reason.

One of the cool things about being a secular humanist is that I understand that morality is relative and I can factor my feelings and the feelings of others to find strategies to cope in the world. Deception and going along to get along isn't necassarily immoral, unethical or evil.

Those people who want to take a stand, cool. Those that don't, cool.

I like choice. :)

[Dogdoctor]

I have long ago decided that my beliefs aren't worth causing a lot of hassle at meal times with religious people. I am an agnostic and don't believe atheists or religious people know all the answers. I don't take my own beliefs about religion seriously so I am easy to get along with. People are more important than their beliefs. I just go along with it. My favorite meal time prayers are

Rub a dub dub
Thanks for the grub
Go God go

or
Good food
Good meat
Good God
Let's eat

Usually someone else will say grace if they don't like my version but my family are all agnostic or atheists so we do a secular grace at our meals. However, I guess that the person is asking about it because they take their own beliefs seriously so the advice sounds good.

[tkingdoll]

Surely grace is a really outdated concept for a significant majority of American families? Doesn't it hark back to days when food was scarce and therefore something to be genuinely grateful for? If you don't know where your next meal is coming from, then I can understanding saying a few words to acknowledge this one, whether that's to god or not. But if you have a freezer full of turkey, it seems a little...pointless.

[RandFan]

Surely grace is a really outdated concept for a significant majority of American families? Doesn't it hark back to days when food was scarce and therefore something to be genuinely grateful for? If you don't know where your next meal is coming from, then I can understanding saying a few words to acknowledge this one, whether that's to god or not. But if you have a freezer full of turkey, it seems a little...pointless.Hmmm.... I guess an anecdote is in order.

A woman is preparing the roast for Sunday dinner and cuts the end off of it before putting it into the pan. Her husband asks her "why do you always cut the end of the roast off?" "I don't know" she replies, "that is how my mom taught me". So the wife calls her mom and asks the reason behind this procedure. "I don't know" says the mom, "it's how my mom taught me". So, the wife calls grandma, "grandma, why did you always cut the end off of the roast before putting it into the pan"? "Because" said grandman, "I had a small pan and the roast was usually too big and it was the only way to get the roast into it".

As Tevye says, without tradition we would be like the Fiddler on the roof. Whatever the hell that means. :)

FTR, I was taught growing up to say grace because we should thank god for everything and that includes abundance.

[tkingdoll]

Hmmm.... I guess an anecdote is in order.

A woman is preparing the roast for Sunday dinner and cuts the end off of it before putting it into the pan. Her husband asks her "why do you always cut the end of the roast off?" "I don't know" she replies, "that is how my mom taught me". So the wife calls her mom and asks the reason behind this procedure. "I don't know" says the mom, "it's how my mom taught me". So, the wife calls grandma, "grandma, why did you always cut the end off of the roast before putting it into the pan"? "Because" said grandman, "I had a small pan and the roast was usually too big and it was the only way to get the roast into it".

As Tevye says, without tradition we would be like the Fiddler on the roof. Whatever the hell that means. :)

FTR, I was taught growing up to say grace because we should thank god for everything and that includes abundance.

I've heard people swear that anecdote is their own wives' :D

On this very forum, in fact.

If we should thank god for everything, that includes baby rape and the clap, right?

[Dogdoctor]

Surely grace is a really outdated concept for a significant majority of American families? Doesn't it hark back to days when food was scarce and therefore something to be genuinely grateful for? If you don't know where your next meal is coming from, then I can understanding saying a few words to acknowledge this one, whether that's to god or not. But if you have a freezer full of turkey, it seems a little...pointless.

Well to me it is a way of bonding with those present. A way to share common thoughts and/or feelings (with or without religion) or to unify the group of people at a meal. I like it. And also it is to show a little humility and acknowledge that if things were different you might not have a freezer full of food. Not everyone does you know.

[bruto]

I have long ago decided that my beliefs aren't worth causing a lot of hassle at meal times with religious people. I am an agnostic and don't believe atheists or religious people know all the answers. I don't take my own beliefs about religion seriously so I am easy to get along with. People are more important than their beliefs. I just go along with it. My favorite meal time prayers are

Rub a dub dub
Thanks for the grub
Go God go

or
Good food
Good meat
Good God
Let's eat

Usually someone else will say grace if they don't like my version but my family are all agnostic or atheists so we do a secular grace at our meals. However, I guess that the person is asking about it because they take their own beliefs seriously so the advice sounds good.

One from my family in the same vein:

Bless the meat and damn the skin;
Pick up a fork and dig right in.

[RandFan]

If we should thank god for everything, that includes baby rape and the clap, right?Good question.

Mr Diety (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaZDcS-rMf4): If things go good who gets the credit? Me. If things go bad who gets the blame? Not me.

I guess we are suppose to thank god for everything good and accept the bad.

[ImaginalDisc]

I'm with Teek on this one. My extended family, grandparents, aunts, etc. often call on me to deliver the prayer over dinner. I'm the oldest living male on my mother's side of the family in most small gatherings so somehow I'm supposed to do it. I'm only 24, but abuelo's dead, and they didn't have any sons, so I have no uncles on that side of my family.

I've been quietly declining to say a prayer over dinner for fourteen years and they still ask me every time. I don't think they understand or respect my opinion about their religion. They never ask me if I'd be comfortable saying a prayer before the meal, they don't even ask at all. It's just, "and now Eric will say grace," as though I've always done it.

[tkingdoll]

Well to me it is a way of bonding with those present. A way to share common thoughts and/or feelings (with or without religion) or to unify the group of people at a meal. I like it. And also it is to show a little humility and acknowledge that if things were different you might not have a freezer full of food. Not everyone does you know.

Of course not everyone does. Hence the qualifier 'significant majority of American families'. Most of the rest of the world does not.

[Beerina]

Something similar to this happened to me. I was at a luncheon to celebrate the end of a project I've been working on for the last 2 years. The people there comprised of the various professional project members (me in this group), and the client's (Florida utility) employees. It was a catered affair and after some preliminary speeches grace was given by someone (lots of god references).

I just sat there looking ahead while everyone bowed their head. I really felt uncomfortable, but I didn't want to make a scene (ie standing up and leaving the room). I don't think religious people can empathize with non-believers (brights!) or non-christians. Still, a free lunch is a free lunch.

Charlie (Bart: oh lord why should we thank you, we paid for this meal) Monoxide


"And I'd like to thank God for throwing us out of the Garden of Eden, saying "in labor shall ye toil the soil", because without that, we wouldn't have had to bust ass to finish this project to keep food in our mouths.

[Orangutan]

As the column updates daily. Here is a link to the archived Item.
http://www.tmsfeatures.com/tmsfeatures/subcategory.jsp?file=20070422ctnaa-a.txt&catid=1843&code=ctnaa