Exchange of words with Kevin Ryan

[ref]

I commented on Kevin Ryan's blog entry at 911blogger and I received a response from him. Here is what he says:


Kevin,
Why don't you go and debate, for example the Hardfire debate with Ronald Wieck and Mark Roberts. If you believe what you are saying, why not debate?



Recently, I debated at the University of Michigan. Unfortunately, we were unable to get anyone from the UM schools of Science or Engineering to defend the official story. That left those of us who showed up debating each other, by alternately taking sides between the truth and the official version.


Additionally, I volunteered for the National 9/11 Debate (twice actually) but that didn’t happen either because we couldn’t find enough folks with the courage to defend the official conspiracy theory. I personally invited (Pastor?) Mark Roberts to join us in this debate, but he declined.


And just last weekend I was scheduled to debate in Columbus, OH. But guess what? Again there was no one able to support the NIST WTC report.


(Pastor?) Mark and Mr. Wick base all of their beliefs on the book that Mr. Wick picks up and sells midway through their debate with DA and JB (in the clip you provided). It turns out that all defenders of the official story fall back to this one source of information. So instead of preparing for any more debates where the OCT defenders can’t be found, I’ll wait for the ring leaders at Popular Mechanics to back up their false claims in public.


Surely David Dunbar has the courage to debate me.



Kevin,
In no way do us debunkers rely on one book or source. I don't know why you call Mark a pastor? Mark has tremendous amounts of information from hundreds, even thoudands of sources. There is no need to rely on one single source.


What are your sources, Kevin?


If you are interested, there is a more recent debate between them and Jim Fetzer:


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5692853335910175330&q=hardfire+... (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5692853335910175330&q=hardfire+fetzer)


Mr. Fetzer received a free trip to NY to debate, some of JREF forum Conspiracy Theory subforum regulars collected the amount in donations. Would you ever like to participate in something similar, all costs paid?

http://www.911blogger.com/node/8038


I thought of asking his interest in something similar of the LC and Fetzer debate. He claims Mark and all the debunkers have only one source. I think he would be very surprised, if he knew better.

[Unsecured Coins]

"Oh no! No one will defend the official story! What are the 13 of us to do for the next 3 hours??!!??111"

[Brainster]

Pastor Mark Roberts is an author (http://www.markdroberts.com/) and occasional (conservative) radio talk show host fill-in. Ryan's just got his Mark Robertses confused.

[Unsecured Coins]

No.... Mark Roberts is a famous british streaker.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Roberts

[CurtC]

I thought he was a gay spy.

[Disbelief]

Pastor Mark Roberts is an author (http://www.markdroberts.com/) and occasional (conservative) radio talk show host fill-in. Ryan's just got his Mark Robertses confused.

Just proves how good his research and sources are. Typical.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I commented on Kevin Ryan's blog entry at 911blogger and I received a response from him. Here is what he says:







http://www.911blogger.com/node/8038


I thought of asking his interest in something similar of the LC and Fetzer debate. He claims Mark and all the debunkers have only one source. I think he would be very surprised, if he knew better.
His entire reply is one giant argumentum ad ignoratum.

[chipmunk stew]

Maybe I'm missing something, but...

How in the hell do you schedule a debate without even having identified an opponent?!? (much less having negotiated the format, place and time)


edit: I knew a girl once who asked me if I thought it would be crazy if she started planning a wedding for about a year out, even though she was not engaged yet...in fact, she was single at the time.

[Horatius]

I thought he was a gay spy.



That's just disinfo. Everybody knows the best spies all go both ways.

[T.A.M.]

Mr. Ryan seems very full of himself, doesnt he?

"Oh noone will debate me. I am so good, they are all chicken to take me on!"

PAAALLEEEAASSEEE!!!

[Pardalis]

His entire reply is one giant argumentum ad ignoratum.

Yeah, like you know anything about logical fallacies... :rolleyes:

:D

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Yeah, like you know anything about logical fallacies... :rolleyes:

:D
I'm not a logician, but I play one on the forums. :o I should start writing these as sql queries just to mix it up a bit. :D

[Civilized Worm]

The whole point of the Popular Mechanics book is that it's a collection of different sources, from physical evidence, eyewitness and a whole bunch of experts. Of course Mr Ryan would have known that if he'd actually bothered to read it.

[T.A.M.]

Reading is an optional Truther (TM) component. Usually it installed in the unit, only after video and audio analysis devices fail.

TAM:)

[Horatius]

... only after video and audio analysis devices fail.

TAM:)



That should be, "only after video and audio analysis devices admit failing". Which of course, is never.

[rwguinn]

I would not recommend exchanging words with a twoofer:
1. The words he gives you can only be used out-of-context;
2. The words he give you do not have definitions which agree with any known dictionary
3. These words can only be used to twist other words
4. You will never, ever get your words back.
It would appear that reasons 1 and 3 are mutually exclusive: Not true, I got the definitions from (Name withheld to protect my) posting privileges)

[uk_dave]

This is THE Kevin Ryan who lied about his former employers involvement with the design of the wtc?

That one?

The liar Ryan? Not James Ryan, but Kevin Ryan? Right?

The chemist who thinks he's a structural engineer?

The one who is sueing his former employer (wonder how that's going)?

Kevin Ryan? Unemployed chemist?

[Gravy]

Ryan is lying again.

Additionally, I volunteered for the National 9/11 Debate (twice actually) but that didn’t happen either because we couldn’t find enough folks with the courage to defend the official conspiracy theory. I personally invited (Pastor?) Mark Roberts to join us in this debate, but he declined.This exchange between Ryan and I happened after he declined my challenge to debate. I had offered to let him choose the time, place, moderators, and subjects to be discussed. I had always said that I would gladly participate in the "national" debate if they could state the format, moderators, and journalist panelists that they promised. They could not, in two tries over 6 months.

Remember that in the other "debates" Ryan mentions, they didn't invite people, like myself, who are known conspiracist debunkers. Sending a general email to campus faculty isn't exactly going out of your way to find opponents.

(Pastor?) Mark and Mr. Wick base all of their beliefs on the book that Mr. Wick picks up and sells midway through their debate with DA and JB (in the clip you provided). It turns out that all defenders of the official story fall back to this one source of information. So instead of preparing for any more debates where the OCT defenders can’t be found, I’ll wait for the ring leaders at Popular Mechanics to back up their false claims in public.I wonder how I've been "falling back on that one source of information" all this time if I only read the book two weeks ago?

I am a minister, of the internet variety. I can preside over weddings in New York City, but that's about it. When given the choice of titles for my ordination certificate, I chose all that were suggested. So beneath my name it says,

Abbe , Abbess, Abbot, Ananda, Angel, Apostle of Humility, Apostolic Scribe, Arch Deacon, Arch Priest, Archbishop, Arch cardinal, Ascetic Gnostic, Bible Historian, Bishop, Brahman, Brother, Canon, Cantor, Cardinal, Channel, Chaplain, Colonel, Cure', Deacon, Dervish, Directress, Disciple, Druid, Elder, Emissary, Evangelist, Faith Healer, Father, Field Missionary, Flying Missionary, Free Thinker, Friar, Goddess, Guru, Hadji, Healing Minister, High Priest, High Priestess, Imam, Lama, Lay Sister, Magus, Martyr, Messenger, Matriarch, Metropolitan, Minister of Music, Minister of Peace, Missionary, Missionary Doctor , Missionary Healer, Missionary of Music, Missionary Priest, Monk, Monsignor, Most Reverend, Christian Mother Superior, Mystical Philosopher, Orthodox Monk, Parochial Educator, Pastor General, Pastoral Counselor, Patriarch, Peace Counselor, Preacher, Preceptor, Priest, Priestess, Prophet, Psychic Healer, Rabbi, Rector, Religious Preacher, Revelator, Reverend, Reverend Father, Reverend Mother, Right Reverend, Saintly Healer, Scribe, Seer, Shaman, Sister, Soul Therapist, Spiritual Counselor, Spiritual Healer, Spiritual Warrior, Starets, Swami, Teller, Thanatologist, The Very Esteemed, Universal Rabbi, Universal Philosopher of Absolute Reality, Universal Religious Philosopher, Vicar, Wizard.

[pomeroo]

Ryan is lying again.

This exchange between Ryan and I happened after he declined my challenge to debate. I had offered to let him choose the time, place, moderators, and subjects to be discussed. I had always said that I would gladly participate in the "national" debate if they could state the format, moderators, and journalist panelists that they promised. They could not, in two tries over 6 months.

Remember that in the other "debates" Ryan mentions, they didn't invite people, like myself, who are known conspiracist debunkers. Sending a general email to campus faculty isn't exactly going out of your way to find opponents.

I wonder how I've been "falling back on that one source of information" all this time if I only read the book two weeks ago?

I am a minister, of the internet variety. I can preside over weddings in New York City, but that's about it. When given the choice of titles for my ordination certificate, I chose all that were suggested. So beneath my name it says,

Abbe , Abbess, Abbot, Ananda, Angel, Apostle of Humility, Apostolic Scribe, Arch Deacon, Arch Priest, Archbishop, Arch cardinal, Ascetic Gnostic, Bible Historian, Bishop, Brahman, Brother, Canon, Cantor, Cardinal, Channel, Chaplain, Colonel, Cure', Deacon, Dervish, Directress, Disciple, Druid, Elder, Emissary, Evangelist, Faith Healer, Father, Field Missionary, Flying Missionary, Free Thinker, Friar,

Goddess, Guru,

Hadji, Healing Minister, High Priest, High Priestess, Imam, Lama, Lay Sister, Magus, Martyr, Messenger, Matriarch, Metropolitan, Minister of Music, Minister of Peace, Missionary, Missionary Doctor , Missionary Healer, Missionary of Music, Missionary Priest, Monk, Monsignor, Most Reverend, Christian Mother Superior, Mystical Philosopher, Orthodox Monk, Parochial Educator, Pastor General, Pastoral Counselor, Patriarch, Peace Counselor, Preacher, Preceptor, Priest, Priestess, Prophet, Psychic Healer, Rabbi, Rector, Religious Preacher, Revelator, Reverend, Reverend Father, Reverend Mother, Right Reverend, Saintly Healer, Scribe, Seer, Shaman, Sister, Soul Therapist, Spiritual Counselor, Spiritual Healer, Spiritual Warrior, Starets, Swami, Teller, Thanatologist, The Very Esteemed, Universal Rabbi, Universal Philosopher of Absolute Reality, Universal Religious Philosopher, Vicar, Wizard.


You left out "Grandmaster."

[pomeroo]

Quote:
(Pastor?) Mark and Mr. Wick base all of their beliefs on the book that Mr. Wick picks up and sells midway through their debate with DA and JB (in the clip you provided). It turns out that all defenders of the official story fall back to this one source of information. So instead of preparing for any more debates where the OCT defenders can’t be found, I’ll wait for the ring leaders at Popular Mechanics to back up their false claims in public.



Hey, where are my commissions for the book I sell? What?! He bought accessories for the Maserati ?!?! Gah-damn it!

[hellaeon]

I'm not a logician, but I play one on the forums. :o I should start writing these as sql queries just to mix it up a bit. :D


$result=mysql_query("SELECT * FROM lcf WHERE have_a_clue='yes'");

if (mysql_num_rows($result) > 0) echo "Stop lying...";
else lolPointAtScreen();

[Arus808]

$result=mysql_query("SELECT * FROM lcf WHERE have_a_clue='yes'");

if (mysql_num_rows($result) > 0) echo "Stop lying...";
else lolPointAtScreen();


this put me into tears, btw...

[The Great Hairy One]

$result=mysql_query("SELECT * FROM lcf WHERE have_a_clue='yes'");

if (mysql_num_rows($result) > 0) echo "Stop lying...";
else lolPointAtScreen();


You realise that the sql fails in line 1, yes? The SELECT statement turns up empty.

Cheers,
TGHO

[~enigma~]

You realise that the sql fails in line 1, yes? The SELECT statement turns up empty.

Cheers,
TGHO
As do those steeped in woo.

[ConspiRaider]

I'm not a logician, but I play one on the forums. :o I should start writing these as sql queries just to mix it up a bit. :D
Something like:

SELECT RANDI, GRAVY as GAY_SPY, ROBERTS as PASTOR, MARK as STREAKER, GZERO.SUPERMAN as DEBUNKER FROM JREF LEFT OUTER JOIN GZERO as GZ ON JREF.NWOnumber = GZ.NWOnumber WHERE RYAN NOT IN ('SANE', 'QUALIFIED', 'EARTHLING', 'BIPED', 'HOMINID', 'VERTEBRATE') ORDER BY RANDI

[ref]

Wow.

Mark "Bishop" Roberts wrote quite an astounding reply on that blog to Mr. Ryan. Wild guess, we will never see Kevin's reply to that one.

[The Doc]

Wow.

Mark "Bishop" Roberts wrote quite an astounding reply on that blog to Mr. Ryan. Wild guess, we will never see Kevin's reply to that one.

Any chance you can post it here?

I'd go to 9/11 blogger but I don't have a bucket anywhere near me.

[ref]

Any chance you can post it here?

I'd go to 9/11 blogger but I don't have a bucket anywhere near me.

I'm sure, I can post this entire response, since Mark is a member of this forum, etc. It's quite a long one, but thorough.


Mr. Ryan,
True, you did invite me to participate in the "national" debate – after you declined MY challenge to debate. I had offered to let you choose the time, place, moderators, and subjects to be discussed. Remember? It happened on your blog. You won't find more generous debate terms than that. Your lack of confidence in your claims couldn't be more obvious.

I had said that I would gladly participate in the "national" debate if they could state the format, moderators, and journalist panelists that they promised. They could not, in two tries over 6 months. The fact that half of the "truther" team that had signed up began promoting no-plane, directed energy insanity, surely didn't help.

In the other "debates" you mention, why weren't people like myself, who are known debunkers of 9/11 myths, invited? Sending an email to campus faculty isn't exactly going out of your way to find opponents. Again, you lack the confidence to defend your claims.

You said, "Mark and Mr. Wick [it's Wieck] base all of their beliefs on the book that Mr. Wick picks up and sells midway through their debate with DA and JB (in the clip you provided). It turns out that all defenders of the official story fall back to this one source of information. So instead of preparing for any more debates where the OCT defenders can’t be found, I’ll wait for the ring leaders at Popular Mechanics to back up their false claims in public."

That's another lie, Mr. Ryan. I've been debunking 9/11 myths for a year. I read part of the Popular Mechanics book FOR THE FIRST TIME two weeks ago. I have never once "fallen back to this one source of information."
You continue to promote the false claim that UL certified WTC structural steel. Go ahead and prove me wrong: provide the evidence of such certification.

Now, Mr. Ryan, what happened when UL did fire testing on 17-and 35-foot replica tower floor assemblies after 9/11? That's right: one of the 35-foot assemblies, – which was undamaged by an airliner strike and which had intact, newly-applied 1/2-inch SFRM (per contemporary NYC code) – failed the test.

Remember, that failed assembly was 35 feet long. Where did the inward bowing of the exterior walls occur in both towers? On sides that had 60-foot floor sections, on floors that had been hit by airliners traveling at high speed.

You quoted UL's Tom Chapin:

"The World Trade Center stood for almost an hour after withstanding conditions well beyond those experienced in any typical fire. In that time, thousands of people escaped with their lives. ASTM E-119 and UL's testing procedures helped make that possible."

Being a more than a bit misleading there, aren't you? Chapin is referring to a comparative standard that's used in building codes. He does not say, or suggest, that UL certified WTC steel.

Do you agree with me, or do I need to ask him?

Did UL, or anyone, ever fire-test WTC tower floor assemblies prior to 9/11? No.

NIST: "The building designers carried out no tests on the floor system used in the WTC to establish a fire endurance rating."

Excerpt from "Fire Testing Is Questioned In Findings On Towers" New York Times, August 26, 2004:
The debate over the sufficiency of the fireproofing on the World Trade Center's lightweight floors -- essentially metal and concrete decks supported underneath by a series of inch-thick zigzagging rods -- intensified in May 2003 when federal investigators concluded that the Port Authority, back in the late 1960's, apparently never performed the formal laboratory fire test on the design.

That meant there was no way for the Port Authority to say for sure that the towers' floors would hold up against an extremely intense two-hour fire, as was required then under the New York City building code. The Port Authority, when the towers were built, said it was committed to meeting or exceeding the city code, even though as an agency created by the two states, it was not required to do so.

...It was the different results that surfaced when the longer pieces of floor -- the ones that more accurately reflected floor sections used in the trade center -- were tested that have provoked concerns about the legitimacy of the widely accepted furnace tests. One of the larger pieces of floor -- the one that was set up to simulate the restraint applied by a real-life building -- failed in a fire test.

These results left investigators with a disturbing reality: in the test in which they used the equivalent of a scale-model toy car, the results suggested that the fireproofing was sufficient. But when they used what would have been the equivalent of a real car, the fireproofing failed."
Stop lying, misrepresenting, and misleading, Mr. Ryan, and you'll be on the road to dignity.

I look forward to your response, although I'm sure you're busy "peer-reviewing" yet more conspiracist fish wrapper.

http://www.911blogger.com/node/8038#comment-135946

[The Doc]

I'm sure, I can post this entire response, since Mark is a member of this forum, etc. It's quite a long one, but thorough.



http://www.911blogger.com/node/8038#comment-135946

Indeed. A very nice response to such obese claims by Ryan.

[~enigma~]

I'm sure, I can post this entire response, since Mark is a member of this forum, etc. It's quite a long one, but thorough.



http://www.911blogger.com/node/8038#comment-135946

Why is it when I read marks response I see aquaboy as a kitten doing..

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/1029/whaaaa1iy9.jpg

[Travis]

Now remember, posting pictures of kittens does nothing to further science.

It does, however, greatly enhance the work of historians. I have no idea how it does, or why it does, or even who says it does. I am, however, absolutely positively, to the inner core of my being, certain.... that I typed out the sentence claiming it helps historians.;)

[ref]

Kevin responded! With one single sentence:

Mark, Do you know the expression "give 'em enough rope"?

Now that's a way to avoid all the questions in Mark's reply :rolleyes:

[~enigma~]

Kevin responded! With one single sentence:

Mark, Do you know the expression "give 'em enough rope"?

Now that's a way to avoid all the questions in Mark's reply :rolleyes:
So the infamous aquaman AKA waterboy was stumped by a mere tour guide AKA the scourge?

[Travis]

Kevin responded! With one single sentence:

Mark, Do you know the expression "give 'em enough rope"?

Now that's a way to avoid all the questions in Mark's reply :rolleyes:

One day in the future when my as of yet unborn children question me about what the term non sequitur means, I will preface my answer with Kevin's little quip.

It will also come in handy for explanations of dodging, cowardice and denial.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

$result=mysql_query("SELECT * FROM lcf WHERE have_a_clue='yes'");

if (mysql_num_rows($result) > 0) echo "Stop lying...";
else lolPointAtScreen();
DECLARE v_count NUMBER(38,0):=0;
BEGIN
FOR cu_rec IN (SELECT * FROM lcf WHERE have_a_clue = TRUE) LOOP
v_count := v_count + 1;
END LOOP
IF v_count > 0 THEN
DBMS_OUTPUT.put_line('Stop lying.');
ELSE lolPointAtScreen();
END IF;
END;

ETA: using cursor reduces overhead if result set is empty and avoids NO_DATA_FOUND exception.

[Totovader]

Oooh, oooh, I wanna play!

SELECT *
FROM wealth_of_human_knowledge k
INNER JOIN conspiracists_evidence e
ON k.truth = e.facts;

Error: "conspiracists_evidence" does not exist.

[~enigma~]

Oooh, oooh, I wanna play!

SELECT *
FROM wealth_of_human_knowledge k
INNER JOIN conspiracists_evidence e
ON k.truth = e.facts;

Error: "conspiracists_evidence" does not exist.I would love to debate that phony from a pure standpoint of physical chemitry and physics. He would leave crying like the baby he is...

[Travis]

DECLARE v_count NUMBER(38,0):=0;
BEGIN
FOR cu_rec IN (SELECT * FROM lcf WHERE have_a_clue = TRUE) LOOP
v_count := v_count + 1;
END LOOP
IF v_count > 0 THEN
DBMS_OUTPUT.put_line('Stop lying.');
ELSE lolPointAtScreen();
END IF;
END;

ETA: using cursor reduces overhead if result set is empty and avoids NO_DATA_FOUND exception.

I think I woke my neighbors laughing at that.

But they're pretty understanding folks, when I went off my medication and decided to remove, sand and reinstall my bedroom window at 3:00AM they only called the cops like.. eh... twice!:D

[~enigma~]

I would love to debate that phony from a pure standpoint of physical chemitry and physics. He would leave crying like the baby he is...
I'll make it easy for the coward. Do it on any forum he chooses and we will have a neutral third party as a moderator to ensure things remain civil and on topic. Same goes for the scientifically ignorant Steven Jones. Are eirther of them willing to take me up on my offer?

[Travis]

I would love to debate that phony from a pure standpoint of physical chemitry and physics. He would leave crying like the baby he is...

We'll team up, you take those important topics and I'll cover the inconsequential realm of ....

HIGHWAY DESIGN!

I'll ravage him with discussions of roadway shoulder standards! Destroy him with a lecture on reversible HOV lanes. Eviscerate his inner being with a droning, seemingly endless PowerPoint presentation of Trumpet and SPUI interchanges with over 38 pictures of the China Trunk road system, WITH NOTATIONS!!!!!

Err.... on the other hand maybe your original idea was best.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I'll make it easy for the coward. Do it on any forum he chooses and we will have a neutral third party as a moderator to ensure things remain civil and on topic. Same goes for the scientifically ignorant Steven Jones. Are eirther of them willing to take me up on my offer?
To support this endeavor, there are forums dedicated to just such things. They are pure debate forums.

[~enigma~]

To support this endeavor, there are forums dedicated to just such things. They are pure debate forums.
I will let either of them that has the nerve to respond to choose the forum as long as there is a neutral third party as a moderator AND neither Ryan, Jones or anyone that drinks their kool-aid has the ability to censor the posts. Seems fair to me. Do they really have anything to say or are they both steeped in woo and can only preach to the choir?

[~enigma~]

Someone do me the favor of forwarding my offer to Ryan and Jones. I am a JREF ninja and my woo-fu is strong :)