Do rational worldviews give people faith that "things will be okay"?

[saizai]

Rational Observation and reflection on recorded History can provide us with scientifically-sound reasons for behaving 'morally', without the need to appeal to anybody's imaginary friend...

...and also without the inherent flaw of Religiously-encoded morality:

e.g. that, once a person has seen that the said mythology is in fact baseless tomfoolery, that they no longer have a reason to fear the 'wrath' of 'their creator', and so are free to ignore morality and commit actions that will disrupt the community.

Religion is admittedly an excellent (possibly the best) system for running a pre-literate agrarian society, but...

...given that we now live in a predominantly-urbanised, literate society, rational thought and the scientific method are far better models to follow; because they can offer ALL the advantages of the religiously-encoded societal models, and NONE of the disadvantages inherent in them.

What about the advantage that some religions give, variously known as solace / faith that things will Be Okay In The End / etc?

Science has no such core faith. [Censored] happens, oh well.

One can argue that such a faith is false - or at least not demonstrably true. The question I am raising however is purely a psychological one.

For me, I am not and have never been religious, but I have an extra-rational faith in things-in-general, intentionally cultivated. I cannot however claim that it is rational, though there are rational reasons to have it (e.g. things tend to be better if you think they will, at least experientially).

[ImaginalDisc]

I am not religious and never have been. I can't find any solace in the belief that things will be ok, because I have no confidence that things will be ok. If I broke my leg and were worried that it might need to be amputated I wouldn't know everything is ok until my leg is healed and whole again. The only solace I can see is what can be found with other people. Sympathy, empathy, and knowing that other people actually care because trying to hep, rather than just praying or offering platitudes, means a lot.

Do religious people have faith that things will be ok? Isn't god ineffable and mysterious? Might not god choose to make things horrible and miserable as part of some incomprehensible plan? Does religion really offer solace when it involves a confusing and arbitrary god?

[DangerousBeliefs]

[Censored] happens, oh well.

I believe life is what we make of it.

As I help others, I help myself.

When bad things happen, I accept it and try and make things better.

When I make mistakes, I accept it, then try not to repeat it. At the same time, I try and help others to not make the same mistakes.

I don't see a need for God or spirituality anywhere here.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I think it was John W Campbell Jr (the curmudgeonly editor of Astounding/Analog) who said, "The first thing to recognize is that the Universe does not care."

[Oualawouzou]

What about the advantage that some religions give, variously known as solace / faith that things will Be Okay In The End / etc?

Science has no such core faith. [Censored] happens, oh well.

Something bad happens in a religious person's life. "God will take care of it."

Something bad happens in a non-religious person's life. "It's up to me to roll up my sleeves and fix this."

Yes, both statements (the one quoted and the one I made) are over-simplified, but I think the differences between the attitudes of people following a given worldview are just as important as the inherent "laws" governing these worldviews.

(it's late, I couldn't phrase this as well as I wished, so this'll have to do)

[Dunstan]

Do religious people have faith that things will be ok? Isn't god ineffable and mysterious? Might not god choose to make things horrible and miserable as part of some incomprehensible plan? Does religion really offer solace when it involves a confusing and arbitrary god?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too. Sure, "stuff happens" may not seem terribly comforting when something bad happens, but a religious person has to believe that either:

1) You deserved this
2) a god did this to you because you're being "tested" (Oh, and by the way, if you fail the test, you might spend eternity in hell. But -- as George Carlin would say -- he loves you!)
3) a god did this to you as part of some complex plan that you're not allowed to know about.

So either you feel bad about yourself, or consign yourself to being just a pawn in some cosmic game. And they say atheism makes you feel insignificant?

[Freethinker]

Much like a child thinking that his/her parents will protect them, when the truth is that at any moment a marauding band of [Insert ethnic group here] could kick in the door and take liberties with the entire family. The child sleeps well at night, but learns little about the world outside his door.

I had a friend who lost his wife and his family business of three generations because he took the attitude that "God will take care of me." Here's a hint: Even if there is a god, he wants you to put a little more effort into it than stuffing chips and beer down your throat all day while watching porn on satellite.

Hiding from the reality that the world is full of evil people who might incinerate the majority of us in the next second, by pretending that there is a magic fairy in the sky taking care of us is just a refusal to grow up, and in no way affects these evil people or protects you from their actions.

[Apathia]

I don't have a Theistic God to make "all things work according to my good."
Prac happens and I deal creatively with it the best I can. If it was good for me or not is a judgement call made much later.
Without anything to hang hope on, I'm not clinging to any such being or methodology. This helps keep me open to reality, rather than hiding behind a God's skirt.
I tend to be optimistic about outcomes simply because I cannot say that things will turn out entirely bad. I expect the unexpected. Also because openess alloiws joy.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

What about the advantage that some religions give, variously known as solace / faith that things will Be Okay In The End / etc?

Science has no such core faith. [Censored] happens, oh well.

One can argue that such a faith is false - or at least not demonstrably true. The question I am raising however is purely a psychological one.

For me, I am not and have never been religious, but I have an extra-rational faith in things-in-general, intentionally cultivated. I cannot however claim that it is rational, though there are rational reasons to have it (e.g. things tend to be better if you think they will, at least experientially).


The faith that religious people have that things will be better and will all work out are not only baseless in themselves but their origins are also baseless. I.E. "God will make it better". Not only that, but they are overtly dangerous. If you have "faith" that things will work out, then you're less likely to actively try to make sure they work out.

I don't have faith that things will always work out. I actively try to make them work out. I apply myself and will things into working out for the better. I work at them until they turn out for the better. If they are totally out of my hands, I don't worry about them. There would be no reason to.

[Dunstan]

Even if there is a god, he wants you to put a little more effort into it than stuffing chips and beer down your throat all day while watching porn on satellite.

Too bad; that's a god I could get behind.

[Marquis de Carabas]

What about the advantage that some religions give, variously known as solace / faith that things will Be Okay In The End / etc?
I can tell you I never got that solace from my religion growing up. I was raised Southern baptist. I was told God had a special plan for my life, all worked out just for me. This was to be a good thing. I was so special that the Lord of All Creation had taken the time to lay out his own plan just for me.

Should that comfort me?

It might have, but I quickly noticed that every time something f:Dked up happened to somebody, it was all "a part of God's plan". Mrs. Lee's son gets jack-knifed by a drunk driver? Part of God's plan. Little Johnny's daddy gets drunk every weekend and beats the fire out of him? Part of God's plan. Hell, this God guy could have anything planned for me.

No, being the pawn of an omnipotent being with inscrutable aims is no comfort at all.

I did find comfort, though. I found solace. I found it one night when, after the rising tide of my doubts could no longer be denied, I looked up for the first time into a godless sky. I found it when I said This is my life. I make the plan. It may succeed, or it may fail, but it is mine.

Since that night I have succeeded and I have failed. I will gain no eternal reward for the former. Neither will I suffer for the latter. The consequences of both will play out in this world before my very eyes. And what a marvelous world it is. And what a marvelous thing to be of this world, in this world, and able to--in some small, fractured way--know that I am in it.

I further take comfort in the fact that I can, with impunity, split any damned infinitive I choose.

[slingblade]

“A man said to the universe: "Sir, I exist!"

"However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me a sense of obligation”

-Stephen Crane

[fuelair]

I had cancer. I had faith that the selected treatment would take full care of it. It did.

Now, substitute for "faith" the phrase "sufficient knowledge of cancer, surgical procedures and the data about my cancer to recognize that the statistics were overwhelmingly in my favor" and you have the correct statement. I can truthfully guarantee that my total amount of time worried was under five minutes. (Annoyed was a little longer)

[Apathia]

I did find comfort, though. I found solace. I found it one night when, after the rising tide of my doubts could no longer be denied, I looked up for the first time into a godless sky. I found it when I said This is my life. I make the plan. It may succeed, or it may fail, but it is mine.

Since that night I have succeeded and I have failed. I will gain no eternal reward for the former. Neither will I suffer for the latter. The consequences of both will play out in this world before my very eyes. And what a marvelous world it is. And what a marvelous thing to be of this world, in this world, and able to--in some small, fractured way--know that I am in it.

I further take comfort in the fact that I can, with impunity, split any damned infinitive I choose.

Amen! Brother. Especially regarding those split infinitives.

[drkitten]

I had cancer. I had faith that the selected treatment would take full care of it. It did.

Now, substitute for "faith" the phrase "sufficient knowledge of cancer, surgical procedures and the data about my cancer to recognize that the statistics were overwhelmingly in my favor" and you have the correct statement. I can truthfully guarantee that my total amount of time worried was under five minutes. (Annoyed was a little longer)

That's my opinion as well. Rational worldviews can give people tremendous comfort, because they understand what's really going on and how it can be dealt with. I'm not afraid to fly, because I understand aerodynamics.

[Mashuna]

That's my opinion as well. Rational worldviews can give people tremendous comfort, because they understand what's really going on and how it can be dealt with. I'm not afraid to fly, because I understand aerodynamics.

I'm not afraid to fly, because I understand the aeroplane designers understood aerodynamics.

[H3LL]

I'm not afraid to fly, because I understand the aeroplane designers understood aerodynamics.

Praying areoplanes into the air would be much better for the environment though.

I wonder why that doesn't happen?

.

[Freethinker]

I can tell you I never got that solace from my religion growing up. I was raised Southern baptist. I was told God had a special plan for my life, all worked out just for me. This was to be a good thing. I was so special that the Lord of All Creation had taken the time to lay out his own plan just for me.

Should that comfort me?

It might have, but I quickly noticed that every time something f:Dked up happened to somebody, it was all "a part of God's plan". Mrs. Lee's son gets jack-knifed by a drunk driver? Part of God's plan. Little Johnny's daddy gets drunk every weekend and beats the fire out of him? Part of God's plan. Hell, this God guy could have anything planned for me.

No, being the pawn of an omnipotent being with inscrutable aims is no comfort at all.

I did find comfort, though. I found solace. I found it one night when, after the rising tide of my doubts could no longer be denied, I looked up for the first time into a godless sky. I found it when I said This is my life. I make the plan. It may succeed, or it may fail, but it is mine.

Since that night I have succeeded and I have failed. I will gain no eternal reward for the former. Neither will I suffer for the latter. The consequences of both will play out in this world before my very eyes. And what a marvelous world it is. And what a marvelous thing to be of this world, in this world, and able to--in some small, fractured way--know that I am in it.

I further take comfort in the fact that I can, with impunity, split any damned infinitive I choose.

I started to just quote a few parts and respond, but the whole post comes so close to summing up my personal moment of enlightenment that I quoted the whole thing. Of course, I'd never be one to glibly split an infinitive:D.

Religious folks like to point to moving experiences where the "light of God" shone upon them, but my moment was when a "light of reason and rationalism" shone upon me. You might think that at the moment I finally believed, deep inside, that we were alone in the universe I might have been afraid. Quite the contrary. I felt newly alive, free from the restrictions and fears of Christian doctrine, and empowered with a determination to make the most of my time. I was comforted not by my belief in a deity, but by my new understanding of myself and my existence.

Although I had been struggling with the contradictions and flat-out absurdities of Christianity for years, it still guided my life with regard to what was good and bad and who I was, and I still harbored some guilt about my lack of faith. Suddenly, everything came into focus and I realized that it was all BS. I was a good person, and had won the genetic lottery by having good health and a good brain, and my life was my own to live as I pleased. No more capricious sky-daddy and his earthly followers to make arbitrary rules that go against human nature for me.

It was like a dam crumbling. Once I was free from the cognitive dissonance required by religion, I began to see the absurdity of things I hadn't even questioned before.

Getting to the point, and back to the original topic. Some people are sheep. They don't have the intelligence or confidence to deviate from the marked path. They always want to be able to see the butt of the sheep in front of them. If they pick the wrong sheep to follow, they wind up in places like Jonestown or Waco or piloting a plane into the World Trade Center because they don't ever check to see if the path they are on is the right one. They eat grass, poop, and follow the sheep's butt in front of them. Organized religion requires such behavior, and discourages thinking and questioning, and passes the responsibility for things that happen to a mythical being. This behavior is an impediment to avoiding the very things that can result in things not being okay, and in fact causes much or most of the conflict in the world.

[Beerina]

I am not religious and never have been. I can't find any solace in the belief that things will be ok, because I have no confidence that things will be ok.

Given religion's belief things "will be OK" involves the current horrific situation and all human history, to be followed by a thousand year stretch when the Devil will be let out to really make things miserable, and only then will God finally take charge, and even then, the vast majority of people who ever lived will be heaved into a pit of lava where they'll live in unending, indescribable agony for all eternity, religion's concept of "turning out OK" definitely leaves something to be desired.

I challenge people to dream up a worse scenario. The only worse one is one in which everybody who ever lived is tortured for all eternity, rather than merely almost everyone.

[Beerina]

Here's a hint: Even if there is a god, he wants you to put a little more effort into it than stuffing chips and beer down your throat all day while watching porn on satellite.

And that's the flaw in God's design of the universe in a nutshell. Vote for me next time plzthnxbie. :)

[Freethinker]

I challenge people to dream up a worse scenario. The only worse one is one in which everybody who ever lived is tortured for all eternity, rather than merely almost everyone.

Add to that: ...while believing that people you dislike are living in an absolute paradise of pleasure and happiness and those you love are suffering far worse agony than you.