William Rodriguez revisited.

[ref]

William Rodriguez was recently in Wisconsin, and some local newspapers covered that event.

http://www.pjstar.com/stories/042307/TRI_BD10AM9S.060.php
http://www.dailycardinal.com/news/world-trade-center-custodian-tells-heroic-9-11-rescue-tale.html
http://badgerherald.com/news/2007/04/23/trade_center_custodi.php
http://www.leadertelegram.com/story.asp?id=82015

I thought I go through what he said in those articles to once more bring his contradicting stories to light.

Here are a couple of quotes from those articles:

Rodriguez, who was two levels below ground, said he felt a large explosion that “pushed him upward into the air” seven seconds before the plane hit the building.

According to Rodriguez’s account, for example, he and another worker felt an impact from the bottom of the building seconds before the first plane hit.

At 8:46 a.m. he heard an explosion. “Boom!” Rodriguez imitated. He heard a man screaming “Explosion! Explosion!” from underneath. “I wanted to say a generator blew up. I thought it was a bomb.” This piece of evidence may show explosives were used in accompaniment to the hijacked planes, he said. When the plane hit, “the walls cracked and the building shook.”

"We thought the generator blew up. Walls cracked, the ceiling fell on us, and the sprinkler system went off. Horror," the former North Tower janitor said Sunday. A man with skin melting from his face, arms and hands came running into the office shortly after, yelling "explosion, explosion!" A plane rammed into the building moments later, recalled Rodriguez, a native of Puerto Rico and United States citizen."


Notes:1) The original quote from him was "We heard a loud rumble, then all of a sudden we heard another rumble like someone moving a whole lot of furniture," Rodriguez said. "And then the elevator opened and a man came into our office and all of his skin was off."http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/new.york.terror/
Why does he now use the expression explosion instead of rumble? Why does he now say explosion pushed him up into the air, walls cracked, the ceiling fell, the building shook, when he originally said "rumble like someone moving a whole lot of furniture"?


2) In the first quote he says "explosion seven seconds before the plane hit". In the second quote he says "impact from the bottom seconds before the plane hit". But in the fourth quote he says "We thought the generator blew up, then shortly after that came a man from the elevator yelling "explosion, explosion", then moments later a plane rammed into the building.Yelling "explosion, explosion" alone takes a couple of seconds. In addition to that, it was shortly before that when they thought the generator blew. And after the man entered, only moments later he says the plane hit. Does that whole sequence take only 2-7 seconds like he claims?

3) Why did he originally claim the two rumbles happened first and the man entered last?

This is a familiar subject to regulars, but we also have new faces here who may not know this. And this man as we speak tours around the world lecturing and telling heart-breaking stories.

[Liszt]

Are you suggesting that he is lying, forgetting, being misrepresented or being misquoted?

As far as I know, he was a hero who risked his life to save others. Why can´t someone just record an interview with him, confirming or denying each charge? Christ, I´m tempted to do it myself.

Thanks for the info, ref.

[ref]

Are you suggesting that he is lying, forgetting, being misrepresented or being misquoted?

As far as I know, he was a hero who risked his life to save others. Why can´t someone just record an interview with him, confirming or denying each charge? Christ, I´m tempted to do it myself.

Thanks for the info, ref.

I am not saying, that he didn't save a lot of people. But what I'm saying is, that he now claims there were explosions and he believes explosives were used. And he lectures on those topics around the world. I am questioning his motives when he is changing his statements so much. A rumble is not an explosion. A rumble is not something that blows someone up into the air and cracks walls and ceilings. Something is wrong with his current story, compared to his original rumble story.

I believe he has been invited to discuss here, and he has joined. He just hasn't posted yet.

[Disbelief]

Are you suggesting that he is lying, forgetting, being misrepresented or being misquoted?

As far as I know, he was a hero who risked his life to save others. Why can´t someone just record an interview with him, confirming or denying each charge? Christ, I´m tempted to do it myself.

Thanks for the info, ref.

Yes, he was a hero for saving many people. I would like to ask him how he knows that the explosion in the basement happened before the plane hit. What is his frame of reference to compare when the explosion he felt in the basement happened in comparison to when the plane hit?

[WildCat]

Yep, he's registered here: http://forums.randi.org/z/index.php?z-profile=William_Rodriguez

Claims we're too mean though so he hasn't posted yet.

[Alt+F4]

I have a William Rodriguez question that perhaps someone can clear up. I've read that he was offered a large sum of money. Was this money from Republicans who wanted to give him a start on a political career or was this money a bribe from the perpetrators to keep quite?

[beachnut]

Where were the bombs he heard or experienced? Why is he alive is there was a bomb, the concussion alone would kill a lot of people who were around. Did he find people blown up in the basement? I wonder what happen to the freight elevator if the plane severed the cable or sent stuff flying down the shaft? Debris falling 1000 feet down an express elevator shaft would sound like an explosion. The darn large fire ball explosion of Jet Fuel would sound like an explosion.

How can you know when the plane hit if you are in the basement? How do you know what you hear is not the shock wave in the steel of the impact, then you hear the impact thru the air, and or stuff falling? I thought the last people out were in the stairwell?

If I heard a blast I would search the building where I thought the blast came from and try to save people. Did he find a bomb blast area? And why was no blast area found after the WTC was dug up? Why was there no blast basement area after everything was taken apart? Where is the guy on fire with his skin coming off? Did he take him up and save him? Where are the others who were in the basement? Someone must have been near the "bomb"? Why did he not find a bombed out room?

Why is he not posting and answering all the questions? Why is he on the road telling a story about how it was an inside job? How much can you make speaking about things that are not true? How much will you get for acting in LCFC? Does Charlie Sheen really have some facts? And if so, where is he hiding them?

It has been 5 years and only one person from the basement thinks there were bombs planted? What kind of blast did it sound like when you sat with the FBI and described this crime? Did they play sounds of RDX, HMX, and the famous "thermite/thermate" sounds to you? Which one was it? Did you smell the products of the explosion? Did the FBI test you for explosive stuff? You did tell the FBI you think someone blew up the basement, right? So how many sounds did they run by you? How about smells?

How much do you get paid by truther groups to talk?

[William_Rodriguez]

Yes, I am here and I will not answer any questions until I see a change of atittude to open a discussion. The personal attacks that I saw in other threads prevented me to outreach and answer your questions. I joined out of respect to my friendship with Randi and he is aware that I am here. Maybe in a fututre when I see more respectful approach. Later.
William Rodriguez

[WildCat]

Yes, I am here and I will not answer any questions until I see a change of atittude to open a discussion. The personal attacks that I saw in other threads prevented me to outreach and answer your questions. I joined out of respect to my friendship with Randi and he is aware that I am here. Maybe in a fututre when I see more respectful approach. Later.
William Rodriguez
Sorry William, this is not the response of someone confident in his position. One would think that if you really believed that there were explosives pre-planted in the WTC on 9/11 and you had first-hand knowledge of this you would take on all comers, full speed ahead and damn the torpedos.

You were a hero on 9/11, you'd be a hero many times over if you could prove your claims to those who are skeptical rather than preaching to the converted as a well-paid speaker on the 9/11 "truth" circuit.

[William_Rodriguez]

prove to me that I am "well paid". I live in a basement and hardly make my ends meet.

[Calcas]

How much do you get paid by truther groups to talk?

It's hard to say anything bad about someone who was there, especially someone regarded as a hero.

That being said, it makes me wonder when Willie starts threads like this at lcf.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8085

[The Doc]

Yes, I am here and I will not answer any questions until I see a change of atittude to open a discussion. The personal attacks that I saw in other threads prevented me to outreach and answer your questions. I joined out of respect to my friendship with Randi and he is aware that I am here. Maybe in a fututre when I see more respectful approach. Later.
William Rodriguez

Welcome to the forum Mr. Rodriguez,

I look forward to the day you can post here :)

The Doc.

[William_Rodriguez]

read the whole thread in LC. I am just posting Barrets email and the coverage it received.

[Alt+F4]

Hello William....I for one never trash talk anyone here (with the exception of Ace Baker) and I must say that when your name comes up all I see are question marks.

Might I ask, what do you believe happened on 9/11? Was it 19 Islamic terrorists or perpetrators commanded by the Bush Administration or a third choice?

Thanks in advance.

[WildCat]

prove to me that I am "well paid". I live in a basement and hardly make my ends meet.
I'd be more interested in how you could determine the explosions you heard happened before the planes struck the WTC, since you were in the basement. And how the elevators continued to operate when the shafts were packed with explosives. And what those explosives were supposed to accomplish since they cause zero structural damage to the WTC.

But if you'd rather talk finances, who footed the bill for your month-long speaking tour of the UK and what did you charge per appearance?

eta: btw William, no one doubts that there were explosions in the basements, lobby, and also on many floors. The problem for you is that all of these were at the elevators - supporting the findings of NIST that the explosions were from jet fuel spilling down the shafts and igniting. You think that they were due to bombs, yes?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Yes, I am here and I will not answer any questions until I see a change of atittude to open a discussion. The personal attacks that I saw in other threads prevented me to outreach and answer your questions. I joined out of respect to my friendship with Randi and he is aware that I am here. Maybe in a fututre when I see more respectful approach. Later.
William Rodriguez

Hello Mr. Rodriguez,
I hope that one day you can interact and post here, Until then you have my respect as the Hero you are for what you did on 9/11/2001.

[Mangoose]

The main question that I have concerns Rodriguez' interpretation of the second event, seconds later, which he believes was "when the plane hit". I have trouble understanding how a person in the basement is able to identify the second event as when the plane hit, as opposed to the first. I would assume that being in the basement, he had no visual access to what was happening outside, could not hear the screaming engines as a person outside would hear, so I am curious to learn what was it about the second event that made him conclude "That was when the plane hit" as opposed to the first. I can easily see how a plane crash into a 110-story building would be perceived by a person in the basement as two separate events: first, the shudder of the aircraft penetrating the outer columns of the building (which made the building sway back and forth) and the combustion of the jet fuel seconds later, which shot down elevator shafts as other witnesses claim (the Naudet video also shows the plane hitting the building more squarely at the core than the South Tower crash, and the smaller fireball outside may reflect the greater amount of fuel delivered inside the building to the core where the elevator shafts were).

I also just noticed that the cracking of the walls is attributed to the first event in one account, and the second event in the other.

Originally Posted by William Rodriguez

At 8:46 a.m. he heard an explosion. “Boom!” Rodriguez imitated. He heard a man screaming “Explosion! Explosion!” from underneath. “I wanted to say a generator blew up. I thought it was a bomb.” This piece of evidence may show explosives were used in accompaniment to the hijacked planes, he said. When the plane hit, “the walls cracked and the building shook.”

Originally Posted by William Rodriguez

"We thought the generator blew up. Walls cracked, the ceiling fell on us, and the sprinkler system went off. Horror," the former North Tower janitor said Sunday. A man with skin melting from his face, arms and hands came running into the office shortly after, yelling "explosion, explosion!" A plane rammed into the building moments later, recalled Rodriguez, a native of Puerto Rico and United States citizen."

[LashL]

Yes, I am here and I will not answer any questions until I see a change of atittude to open a discussion. The personal attacks that I saw in other threads prevented me to outreach and answer your questions. I joined out of respect to my friendship with Randi and he is aware that I am here. Maybe in a fututre when I see more respectful approach. Later.
William Rodriguez

So, you posted just to say that you will not post until you see a "change of attitude" as it pertains to you? It sounds like you are looking for sycophants, William. You won't find any here among the skeptics and critical thinkers.

In my opinion, you showed some bravery on September 11, 2001. As far as I know, most people here do not dispute that. That does not, however, make your subsequent stories and inconsistencies immune from scrutiny. Nor does it render your erroneous interpretations of events accurate. Nor does it cause critical thinkers to suspend their rational and critical thinking skills.

When you are ready to respond to legitimate questions about the various versions of events that you have given, and the apparent inconsistencies contained therein, I am sure that many here will be pleased to engage in discussion with you.

Until then, your refusal to engage is not exactly a big loss. An old song springs to mind, the hook line of which is, "Got along without you before I met you, I'll get along without you now".

[Hyperviolet]

What is with these insinuations about a money grabbing Mr Rodriguez?

Show some respect.

[JamesB]

I have often wondered that. If he was in the basement, how the hell would he be able to tell exactly when the plane hit? I would imagine the plane hitting would sound exactly like an explosion.

[Pardalis]

Welcome M. Rodriguez. Let me echo Crazy Chainsaw's post and salute the amazing selflessness and courage you have shown on that terrible day of infamy.

I also apreciate the fact that you decided not to go to Iran to speak about your theories on 9/11.

I agree with Hyperviolet, I wish the posters here let not this become a personal issue, let's just stick to M. Rodriguez' accounts and claims. I will try to do the same.


"Got along without you before I met you, I'll get along without you now".

I really hope this isn't from Roxette. :p

[William_Rodriguez]

When you have Giuliani, getting 3 million dollars for a book on 9/11, then 3 millions for speaking in Mexico, 50 to 125k for speaking engagements, close to 220k for managing the firemen fund and finally close to half a million from Giuliani partners, you get to wonder who is making money on the events. My tour was put together by shoestring donations to pay for the airfare. I stayed on individual houses around UK. There were not charge at the events, except on a handful that they ask for a minimunof 3 to 5 punds to cover the cost of the rental of the venue, everything else...free. I raised from the whole tour a total of $7,560. as you may know by now, while in UK I received a call from here and had to end the tour 5 presentations short. My wife lost the baby we were eagerly waiting for. An emergency ticket..$600 dollars. Hospital bill, $6125 and medical expenses $2200. As you can see it was not a profitable venture at all. When I travel to speak in other countries in conferences, this organizations will pay for hotel and tickets and a food allowance. rarely will I get a honorarium. Finally, I made money as a janitor at the WTC than as a speaker.

There are many things I do not agree with and have been openly attacking people like Judy woods, Morgan Reynolds, CGI, Holograms , Bollyn, hufhsmidft, etc etc. That is one of the reasons I joined this forum.

Lashl, obviously think it is not a loss for me to open a dialogue so on that note, I will wait until Randi put an event together were I can meet personally with all of you and answer your questions face to face. God bless you all.

[Gravy]

Welcome to the JREF forums, William.

I have often wondered that. If he was in the basement, how the hell would he be able to tell exactly when the plane hit? I would imagine the plane hitting would sound exactly like an explosion.

Quite a few people who were near the impact floors didn't hear the planes hit. They felt the building shake and sway, but didn't describe an explosion. To me the most rational explanation for the two sounds William heard from the basement is

1) He didn't hear the impact of flight 11.
2) He heard the explosion of jet fuel in the elevator shafts that we know burned Felipe David and others.
3) He heard sounds caused by the crash upstairs, such as elevators crashing down.

AFAIK, people didn't describe two elevator shaft explosions in the north tower basement. So if the first noise William heard was some other explosion, when was the elevator shaft jet fuel explosion?

William, do you think that scenario is a possibility? (We conversed at Ground Zero once and you described smelling kerosene after the Felipe David incident.)

Another thing that people here have been confused about is that your earlier reports don't seem to describe an explosion. Are you saying that you were reporting explosions in early interviews, but that those descriptions were edited out?

Edit: very sorry to hear about the loss of your child. :(

[WildCat]

I'm sorry to hear about the loss of you and your wife's baby, I did not know about that. My sister miscarried in her first pregnancy, I know a bit of how you and your wife must feel.

Like I said before, I really don't care about your finances, I only brought it up in speculation of why you say you believe what you do. There's no reason to have a face-to-face meeting to talk about this, I have never met a single person from this forum in over 4 years of posting.

There's been questions put to you about the explosions you heard and why you think they preceded the plane strike and why you think they weren't caused by the fuel spilling down the elevator shafts. Many people reported smelling jet fuel on the lower floors, did you?

[Alt+F4]

William....I'm so sorry about you and you're wife's terrible loss.

If you don't wish to debate here, of course you don't have to. I'm just asking if you believe the Bush administration was behind 9/11 or if you believe it was 19 foreign terrorists.

[LashL]

<snip>I really hope this isn't from Roxette. :p

Consider your hopes assuaged. I have no knowledge of and have never heard of Roxette.

My parents used to pluck this line from an old song and sing it in the midst of conversation in the context of poking lighthearted fun at each other when circumstances were such that it fit. I always knew that it was a giggle between them and I always liked the line, but I didn't know where it came from for years. When I was old enough to think to ask them, they told me that it was a line from a Skeeter Davis song from the early 60s.

(Apparently, it was also done by a band called Patience and Prudence in 1956)

[The Doc]

Sorry to hear about the loss William. It's a shame we didn't get to have further discussion about 9/11, and I do hope you return to post again one day.

Doc.

[David Wong]

26 posts in this thread

3 (by my count) question Rodriguez's financial motives

The rest ask for clarification of his account on 9/11.


He comes in, replies only to the 3 about the finances, disregards the 23 asking for clarification, and declares that he can post no further.

Yes, he's a hero. And yes, like so many truthers, he's absolutely infuriating to try to get actual, detailed information from. If he's waiting for a thread with 100% positive tone to reply (rather than the, what, 88% we managed here) then I fear we'll never gain useful information from him. And that is tragic.

[Gravy]

Lashl, obviously think it is not a loss for me to open a dialogue so on that note, I will wait until Randi put an event together were I can meet personally with all of you and answer your questions face to face. God bless you all.William, I'm glad I got to meet you when I did. It is highly unlikely that a face-to-face meeting is going to happen with a group of JREF forum members who have questions for you. Members here are from around the world.

I respectfully suggest that the internet is by far the easiest and most efficient way to relay your story to skeptics here, if that is your desire. Is it?

[LashL]

<snip>Lashl, obviously think it is not a loss for me to open a dialogue so on that note, I will wait until Randi put an event together were I can meet personally with all of you and answer your questions face to face. God bless you all.

Terribly sorry to hear about the miscarriage. Having had one myself, I can certainly sympathize. It is a difficult and sad experience. That said, I don't know why you raised that here within your first three posts on the forum, in a thread completely unrelated to that topic, and in a forum in which you said you were not going to participate unless there was a "change of attitude" towards you and your various inconsistent statements. You know, everyone has personal issues and personal tragedies. It is just not often that they are raised in unrelated threads for no apparent reason around here.

As for your expectation that Mr. Randi should "put an event together where [you] can personally meet with" skeptics to answer questions face to face, sorry, but again it just seems like you're running away from answering legitimate questions and that you are expecting far more than you are entitled to expect. You seem to have no problem posting your views all over the internet - as evidenced by your various websites and your posts on other forums - when you know that your audience is predisposed to accept what you say without question or when you can control the content of response. Yet, when you expect to be confronted and questioned about your various versions of events and inconsistencies, you suddenly require a different format?

Like I said earlier, you exhibited some bravery on September 11, 2001, but that does not make your subsequent stories and inconsistencies immune from scrutiny. Nor does it render your erroneous interpretations of events accurate. Nor does it cause critical thinkers to suspend their rational and critical thinking skills.

When you are ready to respond to legitimate questions about the various versions of events that you have given, and the apparent inconsistencies contained therein, I am sure that many here will be pleased to engage in discussion with you.

As an aside, I edited my prior post before I posted it, to remove a line about name-dropping because I thought that maybe it was out of line and that maybe I was reading too much into your first post, but now I wish I had not edited it out because your latter post tends to indicate that I was right the first time.

Your words and your accounts will either rise or fall on their own, Willie. You should not have to invoke James Randi's name to try to bolster your words. In fact, invoking his name in the way that you did (repeatedly) only makes it look as though you do not have the courage of your convictions, and makes it look as though you think that by invoking his name, you should somehow be shielded from legitimate questions, shielded from critical assessment, shielded from rational thinking, and somehow get a pass from skeptics.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

[Totovader]

Mr. Rodriguez

I would also like to add my interest in hearing your story as well as seeing if you can address some of the issues that others have raised.

I would think that of all places- you should feel welcome here. I mean, you got a direct line to the guy upstairs. :randi:

I can also speak to the excellent job the moderators do. They are far more fair than sometimes I wish they were and I have no doubt that they would give you the attention and respect you deserve.

That being said I look forward to your responses.

[Lyte Trip]

I have often wondered that. If he was in the basement, how the hell would he be able to tell exactly when the plane hit? I would imagine the plane hitting would sound exactly like an explosion.

You're kidding right?

All this supposed admiration and respect for 9/11 heroes and you have the audacity to ask such an accusatory and downright silly question?

I get the impression that none of you have heard him tell his story in person.

Although English is his second language he explains it quite well.

Of course Willie refers to it as "the plane" when he tells the story because obviously NOW he knows it was the plane.

But he is quite descriptive when he explains how he hears a loud and strong explosion in the basement below him and then moments later heard and felt an explosion at the top of the building.

Willie was no tourist. He knew that building like the back of his hand. You don't think he could definitively tell the difference between an explosion a single floor below him compared to one almost 100 floors up?

Do you think he is lying when he tells you the explosion below him came FIRST?

This is really the only point that needs to be discussed because he is quite certain the explosion below him came first so this single fact alone is proof that it didn't come from the plane's impact and therefore HAD to have been from pre-planted explosives.

Unless you consider Willie a liar and a conspiracy profiteer.

Or like you all seem to think of Lagasse, Brooks, and Turcios; completely mistaken about an extremely simple and definitive detail.

[HannibalGroup]

How many explosions in the building had he experienced in the past, to make him an expert on where they were happening?

[CHF]

There's a very easy way to settle this whole basement-bomb theory.

Did this bomb cause any injuries? If so, what kind?

Shrapnal, concusion, burns?

[David Wong]

You're kidding right?

All this supposed admiration and respect for 9/11 heroes and you have the audacity to ask such an accusatory and downright silly question?


Where is the accusation? Where is the silliness? He's asking how you can know what's happening half way up a building while you're in the basement.


Of course Willie refers to it as "the plane" when he tells the story because obviously NOW he knows it was the plane.


How? Why can't the alternate explainations offered in this thread be true, especially since they fit with ALL of the other evidence? And his story fits NONE of the other evidence?


But he is quite descriptive when he explains how he hears a loud and strong explosion in the basement below him and then moments later heard and felt an explosion at the top of the building.

Willie was no tourist. He knew that building like the back of his hand. You don't think he could definitively tell the difference between an explosion a single floor below him compared to one almost 100 floors up?


So you're saying it was a common experience for him to hear explosions in his time at the World Trade Center? I'd think that would be quite disruptive to the office workers there.


Do you think he is lying when he tells you the explosion below him came FIRST?


No one here called him a liar. He can simply be mistaken about a chaotic, traumatic event, as human memory is often imperfect and what he's saying directly conflicts with a gigantic mountain of evidence to the contrary.

[gumboot]

Of course Willie refers to it as "the plane" when he tells the story because obviously NOW he knows it was the plane.



Like how Mineta knew they were talking about AA77?



The only interesting thing, from my point of view, is Mr. Rodriguez's account still contains the very specific and precise account of someone entering the room with skin hanging off, talking about an explosion.

Everything else in his account is open to interpretation as he is making judgments based on what he heard that he is not qualified to make. He is also making efforts to estimated precise times and even orders of events - something we know human memory is exceptionally poor at doing (especially after 5 1/2 years).

However this skin hanging off is very specific. They are called "flash burns", they are quite distinct, and they are solely the result of a fuel air explosion - such as from jet fuel igniting. High explosives do not cause these sorts of wounds.

The same wounds were reported amongst a large number of people in both towers both from the impact zones and from explosions associated with the elevator shafts. The same injuries were also witnessed at The Pentagon.

The explosion this man suffered, which caused these injuries, was the jet fuel from AA11 falling down the elevator shafts and igniting. Therefore the sound of this fuel igniting must be one of the sounds Mr Rodriguez heard.

Mr Rodriguez's account continues to support the officially presented account of what happened.

-Gumboot

[Lyte Trip]

Sorry the truth hurts so much that you feel compelled to lash out so strongly LashL but I am free to post when and where I please.

Bottom line this is the SINGLE point that needs to be discussed if you are going to accept William Rodriguez as an honest witness or a fraud.

If his account is true it is proof that 9/11 was an inside job.

Which came first? The explosion below him or above him?

Surely nobody here would argue that he couldn't tell the difference.

So the only question is whether or not YOU choose to believe Willie when he says the one below him came first.

[gumboot]

Bottom line this is the SINGLE point that needs to be discussed if you are going to accept William Rodriguez as an honest witness or a fraud.


Honest witnesses can still be wrong. Your above statement is a false choice fallacy.




If his account is true it is proof that 9/11 was an inside job.


No it isn't.





Surely nobody here would argue that he couldn't tell the difference.

So the only question is whether or not YOU choose to believe Willie when he says the one below him came first.


I choose to believe he can't actually remember. What can be guaranteed - because it is consistent in all of his accounts and collaborated by other testimony - is that the person injured by the explosion from below was injured by a fuel air explosion as a result of jet fuel spilling down the elevator shafts. It was not the result of explosives. Therefore the sound Mr Rodriguez heard below him was the sound of igniting jet fuel.

-Gumboot

[Lyte Trip]

Where is the accusation? Where is the silliness? He's asking how you can know what's happening half way up a building while you're in the basement.


Because the fact that Willie calls it "the plane" now has nothing to do with what he was thinking at the time. It's accusatory because it quite obviously insinuates he is lying.



How? Why can't the alternate explainations offered in this thread be true, especially since they fit with ALL of the other evidence? And his story fits NONE of the other evidence?
I have no idea what other explanations you are talking about? How can you possibly explain an explosion in the basement BEFORE the plane hits? Coincidence?



So you're saying it was a common experience for him to hear explosions in his time at the World Trade Center? I'd think that would be quite disruptive to the office workers there.

Huh? Where did I say such a thing. I made an obvious point which is that he would obviously tell the differnce between an explosion one floor below him compared to one afterwards almost 100 floors up.



No one here called him a liar. He can simply be mistaken about a chaotic, traumatic event, as human memory is often imperfect and what he's saying directly conflicts with a gigantic mountain of evidence to the contrary.Uh huh. It's always someone "mistaken" or simply another coincidence when it contradicts the official story.

[The Doc]

Uh huh. It's always someone "mistaken" or simply another coincidence when it contradicts the official story.

Says the guy who claims hundreds of witnesses at the Pentagon were mistaken because they disagree with his theory :rolleyes:

Pathetic.

[Lyte Trip]

Honest witnesses can still be wrong. Your above statement is a false choice fallacy.

I choose to believe he can't actually remember.



Yeah well then you are claiming that Willie has chosen to become an activist in support of 9/11 truth based solely on a faulty memory.

Seems like a heck of a commitment based on a hazy recollection. No?

[Lyte Trip]

Says the guy who claims hundreds of witnesses at the Pentagon were mistaken because they disagree with his theory :rolleyes:

Pathetic.

Not even close to the same thing.

Most witnesses at the Pentagon were were deliberately fooled with a perfectly timed sleight of hand illusion pulled off with military precision.

You know......kind of like what ILLUSIONISTS like James Randi pull off for entire audiences.

[Redtail]

Uh huh. It's always someone "mistaken" or simply another coincidence when it contradicts the official story.

But it makes more sense that when other eyewitnesses, the physical evidence, and experts who look at the data contradict the CT to call them Brainwashed, planted, or shills?:confused:

[The Doc]

Not even close to the same thing.

Most witnesses at the Pentagon were were deliberately fooled with a perfectly timed sleight of hand illusion pulled off with military precision.

You know......kind of like what ILLUSIONISTS like James Randi pull off for entire audiences.

It's clear no one is getting through to you Lyte. People have explained in several threads how your "illusion" theory is impossible, irrational and down-right stupid. There's no point derailing this thread by trying to install some sanity into you. Instead, I'll just link to this thread so the fence-sitters can see the several debunkings of your theory:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=79314

I'll allow the fence sitters, lurkers and on-lookers read your post in this thread and make up their own judgments regarding your sanity and research. I do apologize for laughing when I read it though.

[Redtail]

Not even close to the same thing.

Most witnesses at the Pentagon were were deliberately fooled with a perfectly timed sleight of hand illusion pulled off with military precision.

You know......kind of like what ILLUSIONISTS like James Randi pull off for entire audiences.

Don't you mean...

"a perfectly timed slight of hand illusion pulled off with military precision kind of like what ILLUSIONISTS like James Randi pull off for entire audiences, except in the midst of this perfectly planned illusion months or years in the making, being carried out by the best the USG/NWO/illuminatti has to offer, the new guy knocked down the wrong light poles enabling Merc and I to figure it all out with the help of 4 witnesses who saw the plane on the north side of the Citgo, (in which they are absolutley right) but still saw the plane hit the Pentagon (in which the new guy, to cover for his mistake in knocking down the wrong poles, yelled Hey you four!!!! and they all looked his way for a second missing the flyover"?

[LashL]

Sorry the truth hurts so much that you feel compelled to lash out so strongly LashL but I am free to post when and where I please.

Bottom line this is the SINGLE point that needs to be discussed if you are going to accept William Rodriguez as an honest witness or a fraud.

If his account is true it is proof that 9/11 was an inside job.

Which came first? The explosion below him or above him?

Surely nobody here would argue that he couldn't tell the difference.

So the only question is whether or not YOU choose to believe Willie when he says the one below him came first.

It is obvious that you have no concept of "the truth", Lyte, so your post started out with BS, and not surprisingly, it ended the same way.

1) The truth does not hurt me at all.

2) I did not "lash out" at all, let alone "strongly".

3) I did not suggest that you are not free to post where you like.

4) Like I said, Willie is here. If he is willing to answer legitimate questions about his various accounts and his various interpretations of events, that is terrific. So far, he has declined to do so.

5) You seem to be trying to substitute yourself in answering for him, but I don't recall seeing him inviting you to do so, and I don't recall seeing him accepting you as a substitute, nor do I think that you are qualified to respond on his behalf.

6) Your post is rife with nonsensical false dilemmas, strawmen, and non sequiturs. And you wonder why people do not take you seriously?

7) No, it is not a matter of choosing between Willie being an "honest witness" or "a fraud".

8) No, it is not true that "if his account is true it is proof that 9/11 was an inside job".

9) No, it is not true that nobody would argue that he couldn't tell the difference about whether "the explosion" was below him or above him. His stories have been inconsistent and there is good reason to believe that he would not know the difference, in any event.

10) No, it is not a matter of "choosing" to believe him when he says that there was an explosion from below first, especially since that has not always been his story.

It's a good thing you aren't a baseball player, LyteTrip, as you are batting 0.00 so far.

[Lyte Trip]

I'm not surprised you guys would prefer to make this thread about me and ignore the question over whether or not you believe Willie's assertion that the explosion BELOW him came first therefore proving 9/11 was an inside job.

[Lyte Trip]

5) You seem to be trying to substitute yourself in answering for him, but I don't recall seeing him inviting you to do so, and I don't recall seeing him accepting you as a substitute, nor do I think that you are qualified to respond on his behalf.




I am not speaking for Willie.

I am simply relaying what I know about his account from what he has said.

He heard the explosion below him first.

[jhunter1163]

I seem to remember someone (possibly our own rocket scientist) saying that vibrations propagate faster through steel than they do through air. In that case, what Mr. Rodriguez describes is exactly what would be expected: the vibration of the plane strike propagating through the steel of the tower reached him first (the "explosion" he felt), THEN the sound of the explosion arriving.

[LashL]

I'm not surprised you guys would prefer to make this thread about me and ignore the question over whether or not you believe Willie's assertion that the explosion BELOW him came first therefore proving 9/11 was an inside job.

Au contraire. You made it about you when you interjected the *cough* "witnesses" from your nonsensical little video into your post. Nobody (not even your fellow troofers) actually buys into anything from your little video for a second, so it was just silly for you to interject it. If you are actually interested in the subject matter of this thread, please make an attempt to keep your little video out of it.

I am not speaking for Willie.

I am simply relaying what I know about his account from what he has said.

He heard the explosion below him first.

Then stop purporting to speak for him and let him speak for himself. He is here. His initial claims were not that he heard an explosion from below first. He subsequently made claims to the contrary, and he has given various different accounts of events since, which appear to get "better" over time. This thread is about his various versions of events, and he is here to address the inconsistencies if he chooses.

You are still batting 0.00

[Obviousman]

Lyte,

How about asking your own questions of Mr Rodriguez?

Being a supporter, he would probably answer them. Try to ask questions which would disprove our questions that suggest Mr Rodriguez is mistaken in his recollections or that he has drawn incorrect conclusions regarding events that happened to him.

Reason for edit: correct spelling of Mr Rodriguez

[Totovader]

I really wish Mr. Rodriguez would speak out against the way Lyte and others manipulate him for their own personal agenda. What is being said here on his behalf practically right in front of him is far more insulting than anything that has been said by anyone in the skeptic community in regards to Mr. Rodriguez's claims.

[Totovader]

I seem to remember someone (possibly our own rocket scientist) saying that vibrations propagate faster through steel than they do through air. In that case, what Mr. Rodriguez describes is exactly what would be expected: the vibration of the plane strike propagating through the steel of the tower reached him first (the "explosion" he felt), THEN the sound of the explosion arriving.

I remember that too- and it's the most plausible explanation I can recall...

Unfortunately I've been looking for it and am unable to find it.

[orphia nay]

Welcome M. Rodriguez. Let me echo Crazy Chainsaw's post and salute the amazing selflessness and courage you have shown on that terrible day of infamy.

I also apreciate the fact that you decided not to go to Iran to speak about your theories on 9/11.

I agree with Hyperviolet, I wish the posters here let not this become a personal issue, let's just stick to M. Rodriguez' accounts and claims. I will try to do the same.


Agreed.

Mr. Rodriguez, please understand that our questioning your interpretation of the noises you heard is not the same thing as questioning your honesty or integrity, which I doubt anyone here is doing.

These are not personal attacks - they are merely questions to you personally. I hope you can see the difference. I hope you can address such questions, as they will not go away until you do so.

I seem to remember someone (possibly our own rocket scientist) saying that vibrations propagate faster through steel than they do through air. In that case, what Mr. Rodriguez describes is exactly what would be expected: the vibration of the plane strike propagating through the steel of the tower reached him first (the "explosion" he felt), THEN the sound of the explosion arriving.

Exactly.

Mr. Rodriguez, is it possible that you heard/felt the force of the plane hitting before you heard the sound of it reach you?

[uk_dave]

I'm not surprised you guys would prefer to make this thread about me and ignore the question over whether or not you believe Willie's assertion that the explosion BELOW him came first therefore proving 9/11 was an inside job.

And I'm not surprised that you latch on to one persons interpretation of what he witnessed/experienced on that day to blow apart the official account.

Except that it is just an interpretation.

We know a plane crashed into the tower.

We know that jet fuel was released and ignited.

Our witness (mr rodriquez) has stated that he smelled kerosene while he was in the basement.

A victim of 9/11 suffered burns.

Now, as Gravy points out, not all witnesses in the wtc towers claimed to have heard the plane strike, just the movement caused by that impact.

But, you also have to consider that the floors where most witnesses would have been located were also subdivided into offices. And these offices would have been formed with fire containment in mind, so the wall, doors etc would have had some substance (as in mass) to them, even though they may have been quite thin. This substance could have had a sound insulating quality as well as fire protecting, and this, together with the seperation of the floors themselves would have insulated alot of people from hearing the actual explosive impact of the plane.

But lift shafts would be a good conduit for sound, and an open plan basement area (I'll have to check my copy of the leaked wtc plans to confirm that claim) would have none of the sound insulation properties of a sub-divided office space.

So, to my mind, it is entirely possible that mr rodriguez did hear the plane impact as well as the explosion of fuel coming down the lift shaft.

It is also possible that he heard the sound of the immediate structural damage caused by the impact, which may also have sounded like explosions as large steel members were displaced and connections failed.

How such an experience then gets translated into 'explosives' in the basement is a leap of faith born of a predisposition to believe the conspiracy fantasy.

Mr Rodriguez cannot tell us for certain that what he heard was explosives, but to him and the 'truthers' explosives becomes a possibility because they all believe he heard the noise before the plane impacted the building.

But we need evidence that this is indeed the case before we can speculate as to what caused the sound of the explosions.

If the evidence presented by mr rodriguez or any other person is that he could not have heard the plane impact, fuel explosion, lifts crashings down or structural failure, then I find that to be extremely weak and certainly not enough to hang a conspiracy on.

[ref]

When you have Giuliani, getting 3 million dollars for a book on 9/11, then 3 millions for speaking in Mexico, 50 to 125k for speaking engagements, close to 220k for managing the firemen fund and finally close to half a million from Giuliani partners, you get to wonder who is making money on the events. My tour was put together by shoestring donations to pay for the airfare. I stayed on individual houses around UK. There were not charge at the events, except on a handful that they ask for a minimunof 3 to 5 punds to cover the cost of the rental of the venue, everything else...free. I raised from the whole tour a total of $7,560. as you may know by now, while in UK I received a call from here and had to end the tour 5 presentations short. My wife lost the baby we were eagerly waiting for. An emergency ticket..$600 dollars. Hospital bill, $6125 and medical expenses $2200. As you can see it was not a profitable venture at all. When I travel to speak in other countries in conferences, this organizations will pay for hotel and tickets and a food allowance. rarely will I get a honorarium. Finally, I made money as a janitor at the WTC than as a speaker.

There are many things I do not agree with and have been openly attacking people like Judy woods, Morgan Reynolds, CGI, Holograms , Bollyn, hufhsmidft, etc etc. That is one of the reasons I joined this forum.

Lashl, obviously think it is not a loss for me to open a dialogue so on that note, I will wait until Randi put an event together were I can meet personally with all of you and answer your questions face to face. God bless you all.

Welcome on board, Mr. Rodriguez.

I have very much respect for your courageous rescue efforts on 9/11. You helped to save numerous lives. And I want you to know, that I did not start this thread out of any disrespect.

Like you see, we have many open questions regarding some statements. It's only, that some of us would like you to clarify, what you experienced, since some of your statements can be interpreted into a conspiracy. And many conspiracy theorists use your statements as a proof of an inside job.

I am not making this a money issue. That was never my intention. It's only, that when you have been seen in Loose Change, speaking with Barrett, in UK events organized by local truther groups, there easily comes and impression, that you sympathize with the conspiracy theorists.

I am also very sorry for the loss of your child..

I really hope you continue to post here. If you want to clarify some of the issues raised here, that would be great. I think we all want the same thing, the truth. Take care Mr. Rodriguez and feel free to join our discussion whenever you may.

[gumboot]

Yeah well then you are claiming that Willie has chosen to become an activist in support of 9/11 truth based solely on a faulty memory.

Seems like a heck of a commitment based on a hazy recollection. No?



Not really. People believe their memories.

-Gumboot

[MaGZ]

Sorry the truth hurts so much that you feel compelled to lash out so strongly LashL but I am free to post when and where I please.

Bottom line this is the SINGLE point that needs to be discussed if you are going to accept William Rodriguez as an honest witness or a fraud.

If his account is true it is proof that 9/11 was an inside job.

Which came first? The explosion below him or above him?

Surely nobody here would argue that he couldn't tell the difference.

So the only question is whether or not YOU choose to believe Willie when he says the one below him came first.

It was all the same event. It is a matter of the speed of sound from the plane crash and explosion above vs. the jet fuel exploding in the freight elevator. He experienced the jet fuel explosion form the elevator and then heard the sound of the explosion from the plane crash above. This explains why he thought he heard two different explosions.

[beachnut]

When you have Giuliani, getting 3 million dollars for a book on 9/11, then 3 millions for speaking in Mexico, 50 to 125k for speaking engagements, close to 220k for managing the firemen fund and finally close to half a million from Giuliani partners, you get to wonder who is making money on the events.

There are many things I do not agree with and have been openly attacking people like Judy woods, Morgan Reynolds, CGI, Holograms , Bollyn, hufhsmidft, etc etc. That is one of the reasons I joined this forum.

"I know there are many people going crazy right now because of the amount of media interest in my presentations....oh envy is bad for the soul!

WR "

It is good you can see the lies from Judy Wood, Morgan Reynolds, and others.

But why do you support the any lies of the 9/11 truth movement?

[Oliver]

@William: William, could forward the mentioned Email to me?

- Oliver :)

[tacodaemon]

Speaking of Mr. Rodriguez, can we find out who sent this obnoxious racist email (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8122) and, if he's a JREF forums member, subject him to the full wrath of Lisa Simpson?

[CHF]

Speaking of Mr. Rodriguez, can we find out who sent this obnoxious racist email (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8122) and, if he's a JREF forums member, subject him to the full wrath of Lisa Simpson?

Whoever wrote that e-mail deserves a good, hard smack upside the head.

[Pardalis]

M. Rodriguez, why did you complain to the LC forum about this anonymous email you don't even know is from a JREFer?

Why don't you respond to the overwhelmingly polite posts and questions people have asked here instead?

[Lisa Simpson]

Speaking of Mr. Rodriguez, can we find out who sent this obnoxious racist email (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8122) and, if he's a JREF forums member, subject him to the full wrath of Lisa Simpson?

Sorry, but my wrath only extends to things that happen on this forum. There is no evidence that joeyp190 belongs to our forum and even if he did, I have no control over what forum members send with their private email accounts. The email is disgusting and hateful, but it is also illogical to assume that because joeyp mentions the JREF he must be a forum member. It is also illogical to assume that this emailling nitwit speaks in any way for this forum, for Mr. Randi or for the Foundation as a whole.

[Oliver]

Speaking of Mr. Rodriguez, can we find out who sent this obnoxious racist email (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8122) and, if he's a JREF forums member, subject him to the full wrath of Lisa Simpson?


Yep, it is possible if we compare the originating IP from the Email
to the IP's used on this Forum. I asked William to forward the E-Mail
to me to find out where it came from and who sent it. This way I
identified Troy in WV to the hatemail to Jackchit (http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=1702).

[William_Rodriguez]

well , I see all my answers have been deleted, including my thanks to Pardalis.

oliver, I will send you the emails. I just got some more.

[mrfreeze]

Wait what? Your messages got deleted? What the heck is up with that?

[Lisa Simpson]

Some posts have been moved to Deep Storage while we discuss this situation.

[mrfreeze]

Ooook. I must have missed something since I have no idea what "situation" is even being referred to, outside of the one of the ******* sending the e-mail. Carry on then.

[jmercer]

Please refocus on the original topic; any personal emails that Mr. Rodriguez may (or may not) have received from a person who may (or may not) be a member of this forum is not within the scope of the subject matter for the Conspiracy Theory sub-forum.

[Undesired Walrus]

In a hypothetical controlled demolition that starts from the top down, I presume that any bomb explosions in the basement would have no effect on the resulting collapse at the top?

Mr Rodriguez,please stick around, there are some absolute idiots in all walks of life, and more than often those who exist in civilised thought would openly deficate on anyone who sent you that unbelievably moronic email. Any truthers reading here, I'd invite you to join in too.

[Undesired Walrus]

I'm not surprised you guys would prefer to make this thread about me and ignore the question over whether or not you believe Willie's assertion

That's William Rodriguez to you Lyte.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

It was all the same event. It is a matter of the speed of sound from the plane crash and explosion above vs. the jet fuel exploding in the freight elevator. He experienced the jet fuel explosion form the elevator and then heard the sound of the explosion from the plane crash above. This explains why he thought he heard two different explosions.
The is a reasonable hypothesis. Additionally, we have also discussed in several threads the difference in time between when you would have heard the flight hit from soundwaves in the air, versus soundwaves travelling through the structural steel. iirc, the difference is 7 secs +/- .5 seconds.

[Disbelief]

It was all the same event. It is a matter of the speed of sound from the plane crash and explosion above vs. the jet fuel exploding in the freight elevator. He experienced the jet fuel explosion form the elevator and then heard the sound of the explosion from the plane crash above. This explains why he thought he heard two different explosions.

Who said this? MaGZ? A coherent post? Are you coming around to seeing the light? I thought missiles hit the towers?

[Darat]

The deleted (actually moved) posts deal with an email that William_Rodriguez for some reason believes was sent from a Member of this Forum. The email was absolutely disgusting and given that we have taken William_Rodriguez allegation very seriously. Therefore we have moved from view (at least for the time being) some posts that were discussing the email and the alleged link to this Forum.

Obviously this is not an appropriate subject for discussion in this section of the Forum. Once Jeff Wagg has finished his review of the matter we will decide whether to return the posts to public view or not and make a "statement".

In the meantime please no further discussion here.

[Travis]

I doubt he could have experienced the elevator fuel explosion before hearing the plane impact. Remember that:

1) the plane has to impact
2) the plane has to disintegrate
3) the fuel enters the core
4) the fuel drops 98 storeys plus the sub levels
5) the fuel vapor ignites
6) concussion of igniting fuel hits William

...all before the sound waves from the initial impact reach him.

[ref]

Darat, you mean no further discussion about the e-mail, but we can continue on the original topic I think?

Nice to see William still posts here. Maybe we can get back to the original discussion..

[WildCat]

I doubt he could have experienced the elevator fuel explosion before hearing the plane impact. Remember that:

1) the plane has to impact
2) the plane has to disintegrate
3) the fuel enters the core
4) the fuel drops 98 storeys plus the sub levels
5) the fuel vapor ignites
6) concussion of igniting fuel hits William

...all before the sound waves from the initial impact reach him.
Steps 1,2, and 3 can all happen within a second or 2, once in the elevator shaft it wouldn't have to fall all the way down - an explosion 80 floors up could travel all the way down to the end of the shaft almost instantaneously. The shaft would act like a gun barrel. And there were many elevator shafts in the WTC, any fuel spilled into them wouldn't necessarily ignite at the same time. So there could be several explosions, in different elevator shafts, seconds apart.

The evidence for fuel spilling down the shafts is overwhelming, I'd really like to hear Rodriquez explain why he doesn't think it was a fuel explosion(s) he heard.

[MikeW]

I'd really like to hear Rodriquez explain why he doesn't think it was a fuel explosion(s) he heard.
And/ or what changed his mind from this 2002 account:

And at that terrible day when I took people out of the office, one of them totally burned because he was standing in front of the freight elevator and the ball of fire came down the duct of the elevator itself, I put him on the ambulance.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/11/se.48.html

[jmercer]

Darat, you mean no further discussion about the e-mail, but we can continue on the original topic I think?



Speaking for the mod team, yes - please feel free to continue on the original subject, everyone. :)

[R.Mackey]

Who said this? MaGZ? A coherent post? Are you coming around to seeing the light? I thought missiles hit the towers?

I have to remark that this is not an uncommon phenomenon -- a conspiracy theorist displaying sound critical thinking skills, so long as it's not in reference to his or her pet conspiracy theory. And particularly if it competes with his or her theory.

As evidence, consider the almost lucid debunking (http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/why_indeed.html) of Steven Jones and his thermite theory, composed by former colleagues Morgan Reynolds and Judy Wood, who themselves have advanced perhaps the most provably insane Sept. 11th theory of all time.

On the other hand, many who believe one conspiracy will believe in another, on totally unrelated topics, as I discussed here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2350992#post2350992). Perhaps the issue is one of stubbornness...

In any case, we should always encourage critical thinking, regardless of other beliefs or misconceptions that any individual might have.

To William Rodriguez, welcome; I am sorry that there are some people in the world who cannot conduct themselves maturely, and have demonstrated that by sending you atrocious e-mails. While I too feel your recollection about, in particular, the timing of what you experienced may be in error -- particularly because it cannot be reconciled with siesmic data published by the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, which shows conclusively that there was no explosion prior to impact -- I don't hold this against you, nor is there any disrespect implied. Thanks for coming here to face some of your critics.

[Oliver]

Done, as far as I'm concerned anyway.
I am interested in what is right and fair, I do not use the term "truth" as it has become a euphamism (bad spelling) for any theory however insane.
I still believe there is something fishy about the events of 911


So do I. I don't believe in controlled demolitions or fly over at
the pentagon, but there were indeed fishy things - at least after
9/11 - but in my opinion also before it happened. So change your
mind and let's find out about the factual things concerning the events. :)

[ref]

Once again getting back to the original topic.

Has the man, who came out of the basement elevator been identified? What is his view on things?

I might remember all wrong, but I have a hunch I have seen a short videoclip of him, and he was African American male. Correct me if I'm just plain wrong here.

ETA: Felipe David. Somehow I had completely missed that. Forget the earlier post :) Has he given statements of his experiences?

[Gravy]

And/ or what changed his mind from this 2002 account:

And at that terrible day when I took people out of the office, one of them totally burned because he was standing in front of the freight elevator and the ball of fire came down the duct of the elevator itself, I put him on the ambulance.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/11/se.48.html

It is hard to reconcile with this 2005 statement:

""He was burned terribly," said Rodriguez. "The skin was hanging off his hands and arms. His injuries couldn’t have come from the airplane above, but only from a massive explosion below. I don’t care what the government says, what scientists say. I saw a man burned terribly from a fire that was caused from an explosion below.

I know there were explosives placed below the trade center. I helped a man to safety who is living proof, living proof the government story is a lie and a cover-up. ”

http://www.arcticbeacon.com/24-Jun-2005.html
ETA: Felipe David. Somehow I had completely missed that. Forget the earlier post :) Has he given statements of his experiences?

This account is also from Greg Szymanski's Arctic Beacon. He's not a reputable journalist, but I haven't heard William Rodriguez complain about inaccuracies in any of the many quotes of his on Szymanski's site.

David's Story

Standing in front of a freight elevator on sub level 1 near the office where Rodriguez and 14 others were huddled together when the explosion erupted below, David said in the taped interview:

"That day I was in the basement in sub-level 1 sometime after 8:30am. Everything happened so fast, everything moved so fast. The building started shaking after I heard the explosion below, dust was flying everywhere and all of a sudden it got real hot.

"I threw myself onto the floor, covered my face because I felt like I was burned. I sat there for a couple of seconds on the floor and felt like I was going to die, saying to myself 'God, please give me strength.'"

Although severely burned on his face, arms and hands with skin hanging from his body like pieces of cloth, David picked himself up, running for help to the office were Rodriguez and others were gathered.

"When I went in, I told them it was an explosion," said David, who was then helped out of the WTC by Rodriguez and eventually taken by ambulance to New York Hospital. "When people looked at me with my skin hanging, they started crying but I heard others say 'OK, good, good, you made it alive." http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/13-Jul-2005.htmlThis account gives a sense of the time between the first sound and the fireball:

In the 2002 taped statement, Sanchez recalls, at the same time Rodriguez and the others heard the explosion, being in a small sub-level 4 workshop with another man who he only knew by the name of Chino when, out of nowhere, the blast sounded as the two men were cutting a piece of metal.

“It sounded like a bomb and the lights went on and off,” said Sanchez in the tape recording. “We started to walk to the exit and a huge ball of fire went through the freight elevator. The hot air from the ball of fire dropped Chino to the floor and my hair got burned,” said Sanchez in the tape recording. “The room then got full of smoke and I remember saying out loud ‘I believe it was a bomb that blew up inside the building.’ http://www.arcticbeacon.citymaker.co...8131/29079.htmOn the lowest level, the 6th sub-basement:

Deep below the tower, Mike Pecoraro was suddenly interrupted in his grinding task by a shake on his shoulder from his co-worker. "Did you see that?" he was asked. Mike told him that he had seen nothing. "You didn't see the lights flicker?," his co-worker asked again. "No," Mike responded, but he knew immediately that if the lights had flickered, it could spell trouble. A power surge or interruption could play havoc with the building's equipment. If all the pumps trip out or pulse meters trip, it could make for a very long day bringing the entire center's equipment back on-line.

Mike told his co-worker to call upstairs to their Assistant Chief Engineer and find out if everything was all right. His co-worker made the call and reported back to Mike that he was told that the Assistant Chief did not know what happened but that the whole building seemed to shake and there was a loud explosion. They had been told to stay where they were and "sit tight" until the Assistant Chief got back to them. By this time, however, the room they were working in began to fill with a white smoke. "We smelled kerosene," Mike recalled, "I was thinking maybe a car fire was upstairs", referring to the parking garage located below grade in the tower but above the deep space where they were working.

The two decided to ascend the stairs to the C level, to a small machine shop where Vito Deleo and David Williams were supposed to be working. When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone.

"There was nothing there but rubble, "Mike said. "We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press – gone!" [Note: "50-tons" refers to the hydraulic capacity of the press, not to its weight. An average 50-ton press weighs about 500-650 lbs.] The two began yelling for their co-workers, but there was no answer. They saw a perfect line of smoke streaming through the air. "You could stand here," he said, "and two inches over you couldn't breathe. We couldn't see through the smoke so we started screaming." But there was still no answer.

The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone. "There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can't see anything" he said. http://www.chiefengineer.org/article.cfm?seqnum1=1029

[ref]

Thanks Mark.

I found this about Felipe David:

When the first plane crashed, David was taking inventory of the vending machines in the center's basement. "I asked God to give me strength. And I was able to get up and run six blocks to find an exit," he says.

Despite his injuries, David is grateful for his life. "Things have always happened, and they will continue to happen," he says. "I have to learn to continue to survive because there was a reason God saved my life. Although it will never be the same."

Lutheran Disaster Response-New York initially provided rent money, says David's pastor, Heidi Neumark. "[His family] had no income because he was the only one working," she says. "After his wife found a job, he had to go alone to therapy, which created other problems. He got jostled on the subway and his burns opened up. So LDRNY gave him cab money."


http://www.thelutheran.org/article/article.cfm?article_id=4447


What does he mean by six blocks?

[Gravy]

That's a strange quote. I don't think there's any doubt about William Rodriguez helping him out to the ambulance, and six blocks to an exit just doesn't make sense.

[ref]

That's a strange quote. I don't think there's any doubt about William Rodriguez helping him out, and six blocks to an exit doesn't make sense.

I thought the same thing. Strange.

[ref]

More investigation:

The man was Felipe David, whose job, Rodriguez later discovered, was to replenish the vending machines. He had been standing in front of a lift about 400 yards from the office when a fireball had burst out of the lift shaft.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/localnews/display.var.1219050.0.interview_the_untold_story_o f_september_11.php

Felipe could be describing the huge distance with an expression 6 blocks.

But if Felipe was 400 yards from William, it must have taken him minutes to get to where Rodriguez was. After all, he was first thrown to the ground, the ran 400 yards before meeting anyone.

Here William states the following:

"We thought the generator blew up. Walls cracked, the ceiling fell on us, and the sprinkler system went off. Horror," the former North Tower janitor said Sunday.


A man with skin melting from his face, arms and hands came running into the office shortly after, yelling "explosion, explosion!"
A plane rammed into the building moments later, recalled Rodriguez, a native of Puerto Rico and United States citizen.

http://www.pjstar.com/stories/042307/TRI_BD10AM9S.060.php

So first there was an explosion, then Felipe David came and then the plane hit the building, according to Mr. Rodriguez.

But since Felipe David was 400 yards away, was there a 1-2 minute difference between the explosion and the plane?


ETA: In here William says, the explosion was 7 seconds before the plane:

At 8:46 a.m. on Sept. 11, 2001, Rodriguez, who was two levels below ground, said he felt a large explosion that “pushed him upward into the air” seven seconds before the plane hit the building.

That's physically impossible, if Felipe David was 400 yards away during the explosion.

[Gravy]

More investigation:

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/localnews/display.var.1219050.0.interview_the_untold_story_o f_september_11.php

Felipe could be describing the huge distance with an expression 6 blocks.

But if Felipe was 400 yards from William, it must have taken him minutes to get to where Rodriguez was. After all, he was first thrown to the ground, the ran 400 yards before meeting anyone.That's an error. He was in the center of the same building as Rodriguez, on the same floor.

[ref]

That's an error. He was in the center of the same building as Rodriguez, on the same floor.

Ok, thanks for the correction. That huge distance sounded odd. I posted this as I work, so now when I stop to think about it, 400 yards would have been impossible. Just a lesson to me once again, think twice before you post at work. Here you can't concentrate on this too much. For obvious reasons :)

[Shrinker]

This is starting to sound like troofer talk. Picking through the testimonies of people caught in traumatic situations, on the lookout for anomalies, is hardly fair.

We all know testimony can be unreliable, especially when it's second or third hand. Can't we just leave it at that until these folks want to answer questions directly?

[ref]

This is starting to sound like troofer talk. Picking through the testimonies of people caught in traumatic situations, on the lookout for anomalies, is hardly fair.

We all know testimony can be unreliable, especially when it's second or third hand. Can't we just leave it at that until these folks want to answer questions directly?


Well I didn't look for anomalies. That distance just was so strange it caught my eye. Because it would have meant minutes instead of seconds. We can forget that one.

We have had many questions in this thread. We can wait if Mr. Rodriguez want's to address them.

[The Doc]

If Mr Rodriguez does intend to post here at a later date, I am less concerned about his explosion accounts than I am regarding his power-down claims and his claims regarding the 34th floor of the North Tower that are presented in 9/11 Mysteries.

[ref]

If Mr Rodriguez does intend to post here at a later date, I am less concerned about his explosion accounts than I am regarding his power-down claims and his claims regarding the 34th floor of the North Tower that are presented in 9/11 Mysteries.

Many open questions indeed. Let's hope Mr. Rodriguez continues here. He could set many things straight with a couple of posts, if he wishes.

[Shrinker]

For god's sake, leave him alone. Why on earth would he want to post in this atmosphere?

I couldn't care less what he says on his talks. He's been through hell. Stick to harrassing those who have no excuse.

[ref]

Sorry, if this feels like harrassment. Maybe I've said enough then. Apologies to all concerned. I'll get back to topic, if there is something new.

[Shrinker]

Sorry ref, I didn't mean to single you out. I've just read the whole thread and found it very upsetting.

I've practically given up reading or posting in threads where new CT posters are explaining their POV. The deluge of posters all trying deliver the decisive killer question, is just confrontational and ugly, no matter how respectful an individual tries to be.

[ref]

Sorry ref, I didn't mean to single you out. I've just read the whole thread and found it very upsetting.

I've practically given up reading or posting in threads where new CT posters are explaining their POV. The deluge of posters all trying deliver the decisive killer question, is just confrontational and ugly, no matter how respectful an individual tries to be.

No problem, Shrinker.

This has been a strange thread. Some posts have maybe crossed the line and the thread has diverted badly off-topic a couple of times. Maybe things could calm down a bit.

[Travis]

I'm not sure if this has been taken into consideration yet, but I recall in the NIST report an account that said that at least one service elevator, the 50, plummeted(with screaming passengers still in it) all the way to the basement from somewhere above the 40th floor. It seems reasonable that this may have proceeded the fireball. This elevator crashing to the bottom may have been what people perceived to be the explosion from below that was then followed by the fireball descending from above. I don't know if the overpressure from the falling elevator dislodged or opened access doors along its decent, but if it did the fireball would then have found an easier way out on certain floors accounting for the somewhat hit and miss nature of the fuel fed fireball.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Given the sub-forum relevant topic of discussion in this thread I feel it worthwhile to repost the following:
I am completely exasperated with the constant equivocating of explosions, explosives and loud noises as exhibited some of the people that post here. What follows is a rant with the intent to provide edification on the matter.

Executive Summary
The use of "explosive" and "explosion" interchangeably in discussion is erroneous; and the use of "explosions" as evidence of "explosives" is fundamentally flawed.

Loud Noises (aka bangs, booms, cracks, explosions (heard but not seen) etc)
Q. What are loud noises?
A. Within the context of this post I will be defining loud noises as "Sound or a sound that is loud, unpleasant, unexpected, or undesired." http://www.thefreedictionary.com/noise (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/noise) (def. #1)

Explosions
Q. What are explosions?
A. Wikipedia defines Explosions as "a sudden increase in volume (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume) and release of energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy) in a violent manner, usually with the generation of high temperatures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperatures) and the release of gases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas). An explosion causes pressure waves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_wave) in the local medium in which it occurs. Explosions are categorized as deflagrations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflagration) if these waves are subsonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsonic) and detonations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonation) if they are supersonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersonic) (shock waves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_wave))."

Q. What are causes of explosions?
A. The Wikipedia article on Explosions lists a number of causes of explosions:

Chemical explosions
Nuclear explosions
Steam boiler explosions
Electrical explosions
Volcanic explosions
Astronomical event explosions and
Exploding animalsExplosives
Q. What are explosives?
A. Wikipedia defines Explosives as "a material that either is chemically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemistry) or otherwise energetically unstable or produces a sudden expansion of the material usually accompanied by the production of heat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat) and large changes in pressure (and typically also a flash and/or loud noise) upon initiation; this is called the explosion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosion)."

The Logic
Argument 1
P1: If an explosive is detonated then there will be an explosion;
P2: An explosive is detonated;
C: Therefore, there was an explosion.

This is a logically sound argument. P1 is true by definition of what an explosive does and is included in the definition of things that can cause explosions.
This is known as affirming the antecedent (http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#affirming_the_consequent) and is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: A;
C: Therefore, B.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Argument 2
P1: If there is an explosion, then you will hear a loud noise;
P2: There was an explosion;
C: Therefore, it was heard as a loud noise.

This is a logically sound argument. P1 is true as, by definition, explosions create shock-waves. The shock-waves are heard and meet the criteria of being a loud noise.
This is known as affirming the antecedent (http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#affirming_the_consequent) and is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: A;
C: Therefore, B.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Argument 3
P1: If there is an explosion then you will hear a loud noise;
P2: There was a loud noise;
C: Therefore, there was an explosion.

This is not a logically sound argument as there are, by definition of what a loud noise is, causes of loud noises that are not explosions (ex. steel bar snapping, book slamming on the floor, etc).
This is known as affirming the consequent (http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#affirming_the_consequent) and is a logical fallacy. It is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: B;
C: Therefore, A.

The generalized expression of why it is fallacious is:
P1: If A then B;
P2: If C then B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

Expressed as such, it is clear why it is not a sound logical argument.

It can be made in to a sound logical argument with the addition of another premise (which must be shown to be true), such that:
P1: If A then B;
P2: Only A can cause B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

Therefore, we would have to be able to say:
P1: If there is an explosion then you will hear a loud noise;
P2: Only explosions can cause loud noises;
P3: There was a loud noise;
C: Therefore, there was an explosion.

This is clearly an untenable argument.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Argument 4
P1: If an explosive is detonated then there will be an explosion;
P2: There was an explosion;
C: Therefore, there was an explosive was detonated.

This is not a logically sound argument as there are, by definition of what a loud noise is, causes of loud noises that are not explosions (ex. steel bar snapping, book slamming on the floor, etc).
This is known as affirming the consequent (http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#affirming_the_consequent) and is a logical fallacy. It is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: B;
C: Therefore, A.

The generalized expression of why it is fallacious is:
P1: If A then B;
P2: If C then B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

Expressed as such, it is clear why it is not a sound logical argument.

It can be made in to a sound logical argument with the addition of another premise (which must be shown to be true), such that:
P1: If A then B;
P2: Only A can cause B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

This requirement means that for proponent of CD in the WTC to claim that witness reports of explosions are evidence of the use of explosives the following must be true:
P1: If an explosive is detonated then there will be an explosion;
P2: Only explosives can cause explosions;
P3: There was an explosion;
C: Therefore, there was an explosive was detonated.

This clearly runs counter to the definition of what an explosion is, and is shown to not be true by the examples cited for causes of explosions that do not fall in to the category of explosives. Therefore, this is also an untenable argument.

What does this mean for discussion?
It means that...

... if a witness reported hearing a loud noise and called it an explosion we can not conclude it was caused by an explosion
... if a witness reported seeing an explosion we can not conclude it was caused by an explosive
... the term "explosion" and "explosive" can not be used interchangeably

[Travis]

Personally I have only been trying to figure out if there is a rational realistic event that Mr. Rodriguez may have misinterpereted as an explosion.

[David Wong]

For god's sake, leave him alone. Why on earth would he want to post in this atmosphere?

I couldn't care less what he says on his talks. He's been through hell. Stick to harrassing those who have no excuse.

You're dead wrong. Rodriguez is the one making the claims.

False claims should never be "left alone" simply because the person making them has been through an ordeal. If, for instance, John McCain stated tomorrow that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11, I hope no one would hesitate to call him out on it, despite the fact that he was once a POW.

The vast majority of posts in this thread have been extremely respectful, and are "attacking" only the body of his claims.

The overall tone of this thread cannot be called "harrassing" by any stretch of the imagination. He made a claim, someone started this thread to discuss those claims, then he came in voluntarily to discuss it.

[ref]

This is tough to judge. On the other hand we have a hero, who saved numerous lives and went through hell that day. On the other hand he is also making some statements, that can be only interpreted as suggesting an inside job.

This is why I have requested a few times for him to somehow clarify those statements. I hugely respect the courageous efforts on his part, I don't know what to make of the explosive device and power down statements.

So it bothers me a little, that he is giving lectures that repeat those same statements, but when he comes here he chooses to respond to money issues and talk about e-mails, but not a word on the original subject itself, and it almost feels like avoiding the subject.

But I feel disrespectful when asking these questions over and over. I'm sure he is aware of those. I'll leave it to that if Mr. Rodriguez chooses to respond or not to respond to them. That is totally his choice. I would be a little disappointed if he didn't. But hey, my little disappointment is the smallest concern in the world :)

I think we all need a HUG. And that was a comment from a straight guy :p

[beachnut]

For god's sake, leave him alone. Why on earth would he want to post in this atmosphere?

I couldn't care less what he says on his talks. He's been through hell. Stick to harrassing those who have no excuse.
If I changed my story I would be afraid to show my face and post here unless I was explaining why my story changed with real facts and evidence. Why did his story change? How can you say what he says now with no evidence? Being a hero of 9/11 would not be an excuse, if he is wrong now he deserves the criticism.

I think it is interesting to see his rationalization now for being in the truth movement. It would be great to know why he joined the truth movement cause and how that meshes with his hero status of 9/11.

On the money side, does he know he could make more money off of his story of being hoodwinked by the 9/11 truth movement. The right ghost writer and the right book title could take him there. "Hero's Tale of 9/11 Truth Movement Lies".

He was a 9/11 hero, could he become a hero again and expose the lies of the truth movement?

[Calcas]

Mr. Rodriquez,

From your perspictive, is this accurate?

"Rosie O'Donnell was ordered by ABC not to talk about U.S. casualty figures on The View and was continually censored and blocked in her attempts to feature prominent members of the 9/11 Truth Movement as guests on the show.

O'Donnell had met with 9/11 truth crusader and World Trade Center hero William Rodriguez before she went public with her comments on The View questioning the suspicious collapse of Building 7.

Rodriguez was instrumental in arranging the appearance of 9/11 first responders on The View which is set to air Friday.

Rosie has attempted to get William Rodriguez on the show as a guest on numerous occasions over the last few weeks but was rebuffed by program directors every time due to Rodriguez's vocal stance that 9/11 was an inside job."

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I also wish to add that we can not rule out an explosive gas that might have been released on the planes impact with the building going upward though the elevator shaft from the basement.
Also there are steam pipes and Chillers along with compressed cooling lines to contend with, So Mr. Rodriguez account of hearing an explosion below could have resulted from a number of causical factors and I do not doubt that it is a true account in fact it is perfectly reasonable.

[AZCat]

I also wish to add that we can not rule out an explosive gas that might have been released on the planes impact with the building going upward though the elevator shaft from the basement.
Also there are steam pipes and Chillers along with compressed cooling lines to contend with, So Mr. Rodriguez account of hearing an explosion below could have resulted from a number of causical factors and I do not doubt that it is a true account in fact it is perfectly reasonable.

The chilled water lines aren't under enough pressure to do anything (plus water is ~incompressible), but if the WTC towers were designed with a steam system there is plenty of stuff that could cause a loud noise (or even an explosion), even if it was a low pressure system.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

The chilled water lines aren't under enough pressure to do anything (plus water is ~incompressible), but if the WTC towers were designed with a steam system there is plenty of stuff that could cause a loud noise (or even an explosion), even if it was a low pressure system.

What I was really thinking of the the system that chills the water not the water itself.
I believe that is a big refrigeration system, with pressurized refrigerant, and the steam pipes were used for heating there are reports of steam explosions, I now think not all of those were steam pipes.

[AZCat]

What I was really thinking of the the system that chills the water not the water itself.
I believe that is a big refrigeration system, with pressurized refrigerant, and the steam pipes were used for heating there are reports of steam explosions, I now think not all of those were steam pipes.

Yes, the refrigerant is under a lot of pressure - the newer refrigerants even more so. The refrigerant is contained within the chiller though, so something would have to hit it pretty hard to cause an explosion. A chiller is not like a split system where the condenser and evaporator are separated by some distance with refrigerant lines running between them, instead they are right next to each other all as part of the same package.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Yes, the refrigerant is under a lot of pressure - the newer refrigerants even more so. The refrigerant is contained within the chiller though, so something would have to hit it pretty hard to cause an explosion. A chiller is not like a split system where the condenser and evaporator are separated by some distance with refrigerant lines running between them, instead they are right next to each other all as part of the same package.

True but if something did cause the refrigerants release that would explain both the smell of kerosene, and the explosion, some of the oils used in refrigerant systems now as lubricants have an oil-Kerosene like smell.

[MaGZ]

Who said this? MaGZ? A coherent post? Are you coming around to seeing the light? I thought missiles hit the towers?

No, the missiles did not hit the Twin Towers.

One missile hit WTC 7 on the south side on the 14th floor. The second missile hit in the open parking area northwest of the WTC complex.

[gumboot]

No, the missiles did not hit the Twin Towers.

One missile hit WTC 7 on the south side on the 14th floor. The second missile hit in the open parking area northwest of the WTC complex.


I thought a bit of one of the missiles bounced off and hit WTC1...

-Gumboot

[MaGZ]

I thought a bit of one of the missiles bounced off and hit WTC1...

-Gumboot

Shrapnel from that missile hit WTC 1 on the east side near the 34th floor. Other missile shrapnel started car fires on Vesey Street.

[Totovader]

Shrapnel from that missile hit WTC 1 on the east side near the 34th floor. Other missile shrapnel started car fires on Vesey Street.

That's some big missile... that no one in the entire world saw...

[The Demon's Head]

That's some big missile... that no one in the entire world saw...

Apparently, MaGZ seems to be the only one that knows it happened.

[boloboffin]

Attention, JREF posters, we have a thread hijack in process in the William Rodriguez thread. Please have the hijacker report to one of his own threads for the attention he so desperately craves.

[beachnut]

No, the missiles did not hit the Twin Towers.

One missile hit WTC 7 on the south side on the 14th floor. The second missile hit in the open parking area northwest of the WTC complex.The missles would be supersonic, do you understand supersonic.

There would be a big boom and if the plane that launched it was far away the sonic boom would sound like lightning going on for a long time.

BOOM, a sonic boom is unique, loud and would of been witnessed. got a witness? did not think so

A great pilot would not launch a missile without a positive id. Meaning on 9/11 there was no positive id unless the pilot had a positive visual. No missles were launched on 9/11, stop believing the neonazi stuff and try using your own efforts to understand 9/11.