Mediums - advice please?

[Becky78]

Hi There

I am new to the forum. Up until a couple of months ago I was a full on total believer in mediums, etc until I had some personal problems and decided to go and see one. so I paid my £30 and was told a lot of utter clap trap, somethings could have been true and she did describe my little boy to a tee, but my Grandad was apparently there along with several other relatives who I had never heard of (neither had my parents!!). Since then I have done a lot of research into this and found this forum. Now I am totally in the middle of the debate and don't know what to believe so would welcome some views from everyone!

Thanks
Becky

[Jackalgirl]

Hi There

I am new to the forum. Up until a couple of months ago I was a full on total believer in mediums, etc until I had some personal problems and decided to go and see one. so I paid my £30 and was told a lot of utter clap trap, somethings could have been true and she did describe my little boy to a tee, but my Grandad was apparently there along with several other relatives who I had never heard of (neither had my parents!!). Since then I have done a lot of research into this and found this forum. Now I am totally in the middle of the debate and don't know what to believe so would welcome some views from everyone!

Thanks
Becky

Hi, Becky, and welcome to the Forum!

I think you might be interested in StopSylviaBrowne (http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com), a website put together by one of our very own Forumites, RSLancaster. The site is about a famous medium in the US by the name of Sylvia Browne. Many of her "tricks" are common in the trade, such as cold (http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Cold_Reading) (and hot (http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Hot_Reading)) reading. I imagine you'll probably find some strikingly similiar instances of stuff you experienced in that site.

Also, the two links above (for hot & cold reading) are from Skepticwiki (http://www.skepticwiki.org), which is another really good resource.

If you have a chance to check out the local bookstore, I'd recommend the following book to start with: the ever-so-excellent "the Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" (by Carl Sagan). Another good starter book is "Flim Flam!" (by James Randi).

And, of course, if you have any specific questions, let 'em rip. I think we'd also be very interested to hear the particulars of your experience (and what keyed you into the idea that they might be bunk), too!

Cheers --

-- JG

[H3LL]

Welcome to the forum Becky,

Jackalgirl has provided excellent links, the one on cold reading perhaps the best start.

A tip that may help you: Forget for a moment that the person is claiming to be a medium and talking to dead people and imagine that they are an ordinary Private Investigator hired by someone.

Think for yourself who and what the Private Investigator could investigate to gather information; you, family, friends, Internet, newspapers, obituaries etc. In particular friends and family that you know or suspect that they have already met. What information could that Private Investigator gather, possibly completely unknown or not remembered by the people he spoke to. Once you have built a picture of what the Private Investigator may have found out, you then get an idea of exactly the type of information a 'medium' could gather for a hot reading.

Ask us questions. What seems inexplicable to you may not be to us.

Finally, of all the hoaxes, cons, tricks, liars and cheats out there, many on this forum consider mediums and their ilk among the lowest of the low and find it difficult to control their annoyance so comments may get heated.

However, R S Lancaster, mentioned by Jackalgirl has demonstrated patience and professionalism above and beyond the call of duty and is highly respected on these forums.

.

[Beady]

Since you're British, your local library might have, or should be able to locate The Full Fact Book of Cold Reading (http://www.ianrowland.com/ItemsToBuy/ColdReading/ColdReadingMain1.html). This is the Bible about how to do and spot cold reading, which is what your psychic was actually doing. I have a copy and have just finished reading it. Read it, and you'll never be fooled again.

BTW, Jeff Wagg was considering adding this to the JREF book store offerings.

[sophia8]

Hi Becky! All mediums and psychics have a standard way of operating. For instance, the spirits they contact never identify themselves properly and require you to make a guess at who they are. E.g. the medium always says something like "I'm getting the name John or Johnny, somebody with a military connection?" instead of "I've got somebody here who says his name is John Alfred Stewart, and he's your dad's uncle, the one who died in the war." Would a real relative, calling you up on the phone say, expect you to play this sort of guessing game?
Mediums always ask questions, lots of them. Why? If they're so psychic, they shouldn't need to ask anything.
If you refuse to let a medium "cold read" you - by, for instance, answering questions only with a yes or a no and keeping an expressionless face - the medium will probably say that "The vibrations are weak today" or something similar, as an excuse for their poor reading.
Occasionally, a medium will strike it lucky with something that seems to apply to you. When that happens, the person being read is likely to remember that one "hit" and forget the twenty minutes of so of chat and verbiage that meant little or nothing. Don't be one of those - evaluate and remember everything that the medium tells you. Ideally, take a tape recorder to the reading; however, the medium is likely to tell you that the recording equipment gives off "electronic vibrations" that will kill the "psychic atmosphere" of the room.
Finally, most mediums and psychics are totally sincere and really do believe that they are in touch with dead people and "higher beings". That doesn't mean that they're right.

[H3LL]

Becky, a lot to take in, Sophia8 offers good info, but it may not be clear exactly how this works.

Maybe this will help, putting it in context. Taken from THIS (http://www.denisdutton.com/cold_reading.htm) site:


“Good evening, Betty.”

“Good evening, Maureen.”

“Do you hear anything from my Mum?”
[Though Maureen has spoken but ten words, Betty — or any listener — can already surmise that she is upwards of 55 years old, might have been raised in Ireland, and is a generally jovial person or at least tonight is in a happy mood. As distinct from other categories of caller, she does not sound recently bereaved, or as though she is seeking advice on a personal problem.]

“Yes, I can, [Betty gushes.] because I have the most smiling lady here beside me! You know, Maureen, she used to put her hands together in glee, didn’t she?”

“Yes.” [A note of hesitation.]

“And she almost jumped up and down!”

“That’s right” [With more confidence.]

“That’s what she's doing at the moment! [Betty’s voice reaches a peak of excitement, and then becomes more serious.] Now, just as I was saying that, she was giving me a feeling — in the abdomen, not in the stomache — and it’s all tight. It feels emaciated but blown up. And she's having trouble breathing — it must have been that way at the end”

“That’s right.” [Betty’s spirits usually identify themselves by recounting their deathbed symptoms: vague complaints in the thorax region, difficulties in breathing, weakness, and occasionally head pains. Auto accident victims tell of “chest pains.”]

“Yes, yes, I was overseas when she died at home.” [It is now clearer that Maureen is Irish and closer perhaps to 65 or 70 years old.]

“Gosh, there is a crowd of people around her!”

“Is there? [Maureen is astonished.] Is Mum’s sister with her?”

“Yes, exactly.” [Betty replies with casual confidence.]

“And my father?” [Maureen almost shouts with excitement.]

“Yes, he’s there too.”

“And is my brother there?” [The eager client supplies the reader with all the material required.]

“Yes, your brother is there too. And look [Betty’s voice is almost embarrassed.], I know this sounds funny, but there are five grandparents here! [Betty often suggests a family friend, aunt, or uncle who was important in childhood.]

“Oh...[Maureen hesitates.] Oh! That could be my Mum’s English friend!

“And going back to that time, can we talk about a donkey cart?”

“Oh, yes!” [A donkey cart would be a memorable feature for almost any person of Maureen's age and Irish childhood. Such a reference exemplifies Betty’s broad knowledge of ethnic associations and general population stereotypes; but note the caution — not “your family’s” cart, but just “a donkey cart.” It is left to Maureen to remember which particular cart Betty must “mean.”]

“And the times that were associated with it — you can really feel the pleasure of that time.”

“That's right.” [Maureen is emphatic.]

“Now look — I”m being shown a row of houses, and they’re apartment houses.”

“Yes...” [Maureen hesitates.]

“And there are about four of them...”

[Silence from Maureen, indicating puzzlement.]

“Now bear with me here — and I’ve got a sort of red brick.”

[Longer silence — it must come as a surprise that an elderly Irish lady cannot relate some memory to a description of common brick row houses, but even the best utilized population stereotypes will occasionally fail.]

“Now, Maureen, this isn’t where you lived!” [Betty speaks firmly.]

“No...no, it’s not.” [Of course it isn”t; but an awkward miss is being cleverly converted to a hit.]

“But it’s where...ah...[Betty is groping.]...ah...a dear friend lived! Can you understand that?”

“Yes.” [Maureen speaks without conviction: she is trying to figure who the friend might be. Betty quickly changes the subject.]

“Also, I’m being handed a little posy of flowers. They’re almost like forget-me-nots, but I’m not sure that they are — and she’s handing those to you.”

“My mother is?”

“Yes, it is your mother.”

“Oh, how nice!”

“And you know, Maureen, there’s an anniversary coming up soon — a time of memory. It was somebody’s birthday.” [With Maureen’s many relatives, somebody, living or dead, must have a birthday soon.]

“Oh, yes...”

“And that one sends their love to you too.” [The ungrammatical “their” doubles the possibilities of either “his” or “her,” but this hardly seems necessary, as by now it clear that Maureen will accept anything that Betty says, making, as Larsen so aptly put it, the reading fit herself.]

“And my brother [Maureen’s voice takes on a melancholy tone.], is he happy?”

“He’s happy now, he’s telling me, and he’s stressing the word now. He says, “She’ll know — you don”t have to ask me more — she’ll know.”

“Oh, I know...I know.” [Maureen sighs.]

“I’m having trouble keeping up with all of them here — they’re all crowding in — and they’re all happy.”

“Here’s one — a prickly one. Is my mother-in-law about?”

“Yes, she is.”

“Is she happy?”

“Yes, she is. She was a little bit of a discontented lady, she tells me. [To the contrary, it was Maureen who told her that with the “prickly” characterization.]

“Yes! [Amazed.] That’s right!”

“But she says, “Well, you’ve got to learn contentment, and there’s no reason we can’t have contentment here, because we have everything we need.”

“Isn”t that marvelous!” ....

[Fredrik]

You may be interested in the reasons why skeptics are so sure that all mediums are deluded, frauds, or both. One reason is that there are good reasons to believe that there's no such thing as a soul or an afterlife. I don't have time to explain that fully right now, so I'll move on to the best reason to believe that mediums are deluded or frauds: No one has ever proved that there's a person who can communicate with the dead.

So what would a skeptic consider proof? We know that there's no such thing as an "absolute" proof, so we are not going to demand that. What we need to see is a passing score in a test designed so that a) the medium can't cheat, and b) the probabilities of guessing the correct answers are known.

The exact details depend on what the medium says he or she can do. For example, suppose that a man claims to have the ability to communicate with the dead relatives of a person he's touching physically, and that he only fails 10% of the time. In that case I would suggest the following test design:

Flip a coin 30 times and write down the results, in the correct order. Count the number of heads and tails. Suppose you get 17 heads and 13 tails. Then you find 17 people whose fathers are dead, and 13 people whose fathers are alive. Let the medium meet these people, one at a time, and make sure that they go to meet the medium in the order determined by the coin flips. At each meeting the medium is allowed to hold the person's hand, but no further communication between them is allowed. When the person has left the room, the medium makes a note of if he thinks the person's father is alive or dead. He is not allowed to tell anyone (including you) what he thinks the answer is. This is very important. We don't want to give him a chance to read the reaction of someone who knows the correct answer. When the medium has met everyone, he shows you his notes with the answers. You count the number of correct answers, and if he has 24 correct answers or more, he has passed the test.

Why 24 correct answers, and why 30 people? Actually I just picked some numbers that seemed appropriate. We don't want to demand 90% accuracy on the test, because then there's a good chance that he fails because of bad luck, even if he has the accuracy he says he has. So I chose to draw the line at 80%, to give him a better chance of success. If I were to do this test for real, I would do some math to check if the numbers are appropriate. I would calculate the probability that a person who's just guessing would pass the test, and the probability that a person with 90% accuracy will pass the test. I would prefer the first probability to be at most 1/1000000 and the second at least 0.95.

Tests like these are easy to perform. They don't require sophisticated testing equipment and can be carried out by almost anyone. That's a very good reason to believe that if mediums could do what they say they can do, it would have been proven a long time ago.

Believers often bring up a quote (by Carl Sagan I think): "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". They mean that just because it hasn't been proven that mediums exist doesn't mean that they don't. They would have a point if it wasn't so ridiculously easy to test mediums. When it's easy to prove existence, the absence of evidence really is evidence of absence.

[Becky78]

Thanks for all this, it has enlightened me somewhat! I will certainly do some research and read up on the things you have mentioned.

As regards my personal experience I tried not to give anything away, but when she first started she had me hooked and I did get a bit tearful. She said she could tell I was a very nice person and that I had problems and was one of those people that did a lot for others, etc. She then stated she had my grandad there and a gentleman called Jack (nobody in either family knows a Jack)!.

She went on to have some hits though and talked about my little boy to a tee, but she did have to ask how many kids I had and how old they were and I have since thought she described a normal 3 year old to a tee!!

Other spirits that came through were Elsie who again nobody had heard of and she said there was man who had been killed in an accident, when I made no response she said it could be someone who knew my husband (guess what - nope!)

She then dropped in that my grandma was there (which is why I had gone as I had been having odd experiences and feeling so low had convinced myself she was around). She did describe how she died to a tee, but then both my grandma's died that way - from breathing dificulties. So she said this was my dads mum and right at the end asked if there was anything else I wanted and I said I was upset my mum's mum hadn't come through and she totally changed tack and said that it was my mums mum after all and that my mum had an old handbag of hers and an old tea pot - neither of which are true!!

She has been on Most Haunted and was quick to tell me that and about 5 people had recommended her to me so I thought she was the real deal - but are any of these people?

Sorry if that's a bit long winded and thanks for your comments - it certainly explains a lot

[Kariboo]

Hi Becky

Welcome to the forum. I guess a lot of us went through a period where they were challenging their own beliefs and in a lot of cases abandoning them. It can be a little unsettling but thinking for yourself is ultimately a good thing.

If you have some time I would be really interested in your thoughts right now. You say that you are in the middle of the debate and don't know what to believe.
What is it that you are debating about (or who?) What is it that you are uncertain about? What are the things that do or don't make sense to you?

I am not asking these questions to challenge you, I am honestly interested in what your thoughts are, also that might make it easier to help you figure out what information you might be looking for


Kariboo

[Kariboo]

Hi Becky, seems like my last post was just a couple of minutes too late. I guess I'm a slow typist

Here are some things I noticed about your description

I tried not to give anything away, but when she first started she had me hooked and I did get a bit tearful.

Well, so you gave something away, often mediums are very good at reading even subtle non verbal behavior, so even if you try it's easy to give something away by the way you look, shift, blush, fidget....you name it

She said she could tell I was a very nice person and that I had problems and was one of those people that did a lot for others, etc.

Generalized and applicable to about everyone going to a medium. Also it is something a lot of people like hearing about themselves. It would be a lot more surprizing if she told you you were a bad person without any problems who doesn't care about others:)

She then stated she had my grandad there and a gentleman called Jack (nobody in either family knows a Jack)!. Granddad is an easy guess, Jack obviously was a mistake, Jack is probably a usual name so she just tries

She went on to have some hits though and talked about my little boy to a tee, but she did have to ask how many kids I had and how old they were and I have since thought she described a normal 3 year old to a tee!!

Exactly!

Other spirits that came through were Elsie who again nobody had heard of and she said there was man who had been killed in an accident, when I made no response she said it could be someone who knew my husband (guess what - nope!)

Well, we all know a lot of people (living and dead, present, past , personal, work, acquintaces, butcher etc.) It is actually unusually for anyone not to know anyone who died in an accident


She then dropped in that my grandma was there (which is why I had gone as I had been having odd experiences and feeling so low had convinced myself she was around).

Did you tell the medium that?

She did describe how she died to a tee, but then both my grandma's died that way - from breathing dificulties.

Most people die from breathing difficultes (or have breathing difficulties when they die.

So she said this was my dads mum

50% chance

and right at the end asked if there was anything else I wanted and I said I was upset my mum's mum hadn't come through and she totally changed tack

ah, the other 50%

and said that it was my mums mum after all and that my mum had an old handbag of hers and an old tea pot - neither of which are true!!

Most people keep mementos, it would have probably been easy to say your mum had some jewelry from her as that is the most kept memento

She has been on Most Haunted and was quick to tell me that and about 5 people had recommended her to me so I thought she was the real deal - but are any of these people?

Not that we know of no


Hope this helps

And hope I'm not posting again just after someone else said the same

[Miss Anthrope]

Hi Becky,

I myself came from a family of "mediums" and acted as one myself. I didn't do this to defraud anyone...I never charged money. I didn't even know that the techniques I used were cold reading. I simply learned them by observation throughout my life.

It took video recordings of my readings and a few "set ups" I arranged when I became skeptical to show me that indeed, this was what I was doing. I was good at following and digging at "hits", and I quickly dismissed my misses and returned to things that got a reaction.

I thought I was helping people. In truth I was a sensitive, observant person dealing with people eager to believe and open to sharing a lot of information that helped the reading along.

Once I had become aware of what was really going on, I went to several mediums, psychics and card readers and paid them for readings. Their mode of operation was the same, and when I lied to help them along with hits, they followed the same paths. Were all greedy charletans out to steal? No, some were sincere, but I'm also quite sure some knew they were full of it.

I have never come across a psychic or medium that did not use cold or hot reading. Never.

Some good reading on the site might be the Million Dollar Challenge applications. You'll see a lot of claims made, yet no one has won that million. Certainly that money could be put to good use through charity or a psychic being able to work for free to help people. Yet, no one has won. Once you eliminate cold reading from the criteria, there is nothing left but random guessing.

[Beady]

As regards my personal experience...

Becky, you have almost quoted verbatim parts of that book I linked to, above. Either Ian Rowland, the author, is himself psychic and predicted your session, or your medium was rather mediocre and operating from a standard catalog of routines.

[tkingdoll]

Becky, you have almost quoted verbatim parts of that book I linked to, above. Either Ian Rowland, the author, is himself psychic and predicted your session, or your medium was rather mediocre and operating from a standard catalog of routines.

Well, a third explanation could be that Becky is a plant from a psychic forum or newspaper or something similar :D

Sorry Becky. Just exploring all the options. I'm sure you're totally above board :o

[H3LL]

I'm sure you're totally above board :o

Teek's psychic.

:D:p :D

.

[Becky78]

I'm not a plant honest!:D I am really genuinely interested in all this stuff. I have believed in mediums and ghosts and stuff forever and this has just turned my entire beliefs upside down. I have been reading your forum for a few weeks and find it fascinating. My husband is the biggest skeptic out there, but I have always believed these people are genuine.

I also used to watch all the tv shows, especially Colin Fry and just can't believe that these people are all frauds. Some of the things they come out with are amazing, but these techniques explain a lot. It's amazing that people use these so called mediums for major things in their lives.

Miss Anthrope your comments were helpful and I am sure like you most of these people genuinely believe they have a gift.

[ChristineR]

I'm not a plant honest!:D I am really genuinely interested in all this stuff. I have believed in mediums and ghosts and stuff forever and this has just turned my entire beliefs upside down. I have been reading your forum for a few weeks and find it fascinating. My husband is the biggest skeptic out there, but I have always believed these people are genuine.

I also used to watch all the tv shows, especially Colin Fry and just can't believe that these people are all frauds. Some of the things they come out with are amazing, but these techniques explain a lot. It's amazing that people use these so called mediums for major things in their lives.

Miss Anthrope your comments were helpful and I am sure like you most of these people genuinely believe they have a gift.

Most of these people do believe in what they are doing, but the really good ones are frauds and cheats. If the medium says he couldn't possibly have guessed, he's a cheat.

Alas, this happens all the time on television, and the television people often go along with it, even going so far as to edit the sequences to cut out the bit where the subject first tells the medium "His name was Ed" and to put in a shot of the subject looking shocked about a completely different topic!

A lot of people see all this stuff on television and think "there's so much of it and it all looks so good. It can't all be faked!"

Except that it is. It's funny the way this works. You can convince someone that 99 out of a 100 spots are the work of unethical TV show producers, but that convinces people that the 100th spot is more likely to be true.

[Azrael 5]

I say name and shame the medium and maybe us on here can point you to specific info about her.
Been on Most Haunted you say? Hmm...can't be many.

ETA: You don't mean Haunted Homes do you?

[Senex]

I'm not a plant honest!:D I am really genuinely interested in all this stuff. I have believed in mediums and ghosts and stuff forever and this has just turned my entire beliefs upside down. I have been reading your forum for a few weeks and find it fascinating. My husband is the biggest skeptic out there, but I have always believed these people are genuine.



OK, you're married so you get the direct approach. Did you speak of anythig in the waiting room (it might be bugged). Did you write anything on a clipboard? (Clipboards are tools for the psychic). Did you write anything about what you wished to hear on any piece of paper after you entered the psychic's abode? These people are shameless and might have taken possession of your paper for dishonest purposes.

Perhaps your husband can't defend you as much as you thought :rolleyes:

[Becky78]

I'm not sure I feel comfortable naming her! She isn't anyone I'd ever heard of, but does have her own webpage and business card so I guss she is running a proper business and making money out of this stuff.

I am sure she said Most Haunted, but it isn't a programme I watch. I just checked out her webpage and she also does "parties" which should be made me question her in the first place LOL:) It mentions Livings Most Haunted programme so it is that.

It also says she is about to tour the UK with her "successful Evenings of Clairvoyance"

[Becky78]

Senex I went straight into her house so I didn't tell her anything or write anything down at all. I had been chatting to her on the phone as I got lost on the way to her house, but I didn't say anything personal to her. I did mention I had a baby when I made the booking and she did use this.

[Senex]

Senex I went straight into her house so I didn't tell her anything or write anything down at all. I had been chatting to her on the phone as I got lost on the way to her house, but I didn't say anything personal to her. I did mention I had a baby when I made the booking and she did use this.

Becky,

I didn't mean to mock you. Just think, if anyone had the ability you thought this medium had when you first saw her, wouldn't she be making millions of dollars/Euros working for a government or at least a large corporation instead of taking what money you have to offer her?

[Becky78]

I've never thought of it like that. I know lots of people who go to mediums all the time and really believe it. It's only when you look at sites like this you start to realise how silly you are and how taken in you've been. Like many people have said you only go to these people when you are vulnerable so you're unlikely to be thinking straight.

[Senex]

I've never thought of it like that. I know lots of people who go to mediums all the time and really believe it. It's only when you look at sites like this you start to realise how silly you are and how taken in you've been. Like many people have said you only go to these people when you are vulnerable so you're unlikely to be thinking straight.

You are not silly. You are someone who questioned something you were uncomfortable with and did some research. You are someone who should be proud.

[Azrael 5]

Becky, name her.If she is doing a tour then mayeb I can get a reading and/or totally debunk her.

I'm sure I could find out who she is anyway,then I will post her name.So save me the trouble and show you are serious about finding out about these frauds.

[Jackalgirl]

I'm not sure I feel comfortable naming her! She isn't anyone I'd ever heard of, but does have her own webpage and business card so I guss she is running a proper business and making money out of this stuff.

Hi again, Becky --

Well, for what it's worth, I personally (and this is just my opinion) don't think she's running a proper business, because she's lying. She's claiming to do something that she is in all probability not doing -- i.e., speaking to the dead. Penn & Teller are two magician/comedians who have a show on the US cable channel HBO called "************!" and they did an epsiode on mediums. I think they expressed my own problem with mediums more directly than I would have thought to say, which was to say that what makes mediums so reprehensible is that they're replacing real, true, honest memories of one's loved ones with saccharine nonesense. Only they swore a lot more when they said it. ; )

Some mediums, like Sylvia Browne, actually go so far as to diagnose medical problems and recommend treatment (that is, they recommend specific medicines to take), while having no medical background whatsoever. This is, as I'm sure you can see, inherently dangerous.

It is definitely true that your medium is running a business, and making money. But she's doing it through fraud and by taking advantage of people who are in altered emotional states because of depression, anxiety, or bereavement. As such, I hope you can understand why I don't think -- even without knowing her -- that she's worth your protection.

[Big Les]

I will now exercise my own psychic powers (http://www.joannegregory.com/whatsnew.htm)...

[Assuming this is her, we could all refrain from using her name in responses (other than using spoiler tags or whatnot) so as to avoid her finding out about this via ego-searches, as Becky has expressed a wish not to name her.]

[athon]

I've never thought of it like that. I know lots of people who go to mediums all the time and really believe it. It's only when you look at sites like this you start to realise how silly you are and how taken in you've been. Like many people have said you only go to these people when you are vulnerable so you're unlikely to be thinking straight.

Becky, welcome to the forums.

Most people here have offered some fantastic advice, and I'd recommend you doing some reading and ask questions to form your own opinion based on this.

One thing I do have to add though; believing is not silly. It's not correct, and it's not helpful behaviour, but don't fall into the trap of thinking that stupid people believe in stupid things. Often it's quite the opposite. We're actually geared to accept supernatural explanations over natural ones, to remember hits and forget misses, to believe cold reading and to desire it to be real. It takes some courage and some effort to step back and seek confirmation on what is real and what isn't. The fact that you followed that nagging doubt that something was amiss demonstrates that you have enough confidence to address that.

It's not a common thing to do, because humans aren't built to be entirely rational. If you like, we kind of have to train ourselves to be skeptical. But the rewards are that we get a better idea of what might be real and what might not be.

:)

Athon

[Reno]

I've never thought of it like that. I know lots of people who go to mediums all the time and really believe it. It's only when you look at sites like this you start to realise how silly you are and how taken in you've been. Like many people have said you only go to these people when you are vulnerable so you're unlikely to be thinking straight.

Senex said this but it is worth repeating: you are not silly.

No-one here in the JREF forums will ever call you that because you are doing something that takes courage and strength of character. You are questioning beliefs that you have held for a very long time. Beliefs that are easy and nice and feel-good.

You have taken a step by coming here that will, if you stay the course, lead you to discover the truth about more than just how this one medium fooled you, but how all mediums perpetrate a cruel fraud on vulnerable people. You'll learn how these mediums who claim only to be trying to help are actually stealing memories and money from people who went to them in good faith looking only for a bit of comfort. These mediums don't care one jot about your comfort, they only care about what they themselves can get from the reading. Some want money, some want fame, some just want to think they are 'special' and have a gift that is rare.

All of them are liars, intentional or not. They claim to be able to do somethng they cannot.

You, Becky, are now in posting on a message board with other people who will support you and help you in your search to find out if there is any truth in mediumship.

Let me say it one more time: No one here thinks you are silly.

[Minarvia]

I second what Reno says about none of us thinking you are silly. I joined here not too long ago and no-one thought I was silly when I mentioned that I used to believe Sylvia Browne, a well-known American "psychic." I actually found this place when I began to do more research on people who I thought could be genuine, then gradually realized that none of them are. Now I'm here. It's a good place to be. Welcome!

[Jackalgirl]

And ditto to Senex, Reno, & Minarvia. Intelligent and serious people are conned all the time; it's the nature of conning. ; )

In my opinion, stupid people are the ones who persist in believing when presented with the evidence. You are most definitely not that, nor silly.

[Carnivore]

Welcome Becky!

I dont post much here, as anything I have to say is usually said better by people much smarter than myself. :) I do visit the site everyday and find myself learning things about a great many subjects. As someone who has always prided myself on my intelligence and rationality I know how hard it can be to admit to yourself that beliefs that you hold may be wrong. In my case it was the UFO phenomenon, and I had myself convinced that my beliefs were held on the basis of rational thought when really they reflected what I wanted to be true.

If I can just make a couple of quick observations about JREF:
This site is a wonderful resource for testing claims that you suspect may be dubious. You will find many knowledgeable, kind and wise people here ready to help with independantly verifiable information on almost any subject you can think of. However, as this is a critical thinking and sceptics site, most posters are definately in the "There is no evidence to support claims of the paranormal" camp. (I'm one!) You will have noticed that pretty much everyone in this thread believes that ALL mediums, not just yours, are not able to contact the dead. This sometimes can be a little intimidating to people who are on the fence with regard to paranormal phenomena. Sometimes posters will express frustration at irrational beliefs by using mildly derogative terms like "woo woo".

Please be aware that the majority of people here do not have blind beliefs about the paranormal. Those of us who disbelieve are prepared to back up our position. So if somebody makes what seems to be a sweeping claim about psychics or anything else, dont be shy about asking them for their evidence. Usually they will be happy to oblige. :)

There is a LOT of information here about mediums and psychics, both in general and in the personal experience of JREF members. For my part, I strongly recommend that you read this (long) thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=52101&page=31

Kelly's experience really brought home to me how much harm even well intentioned mediums can do, and her courage and integrity are humbling.

Anyway, welcome aboard, I hope you will find your time here well spent. :)

[Becky78]

Thanks for all your kind comments and now I know that psychic powers DO exist - Big Les has them;) You have all opened my eyes already! I don't get much chance to be online, but will certainly read the threads you suggest and stick around on the forum.

One question I do have is that my sister in law (also a firm believer) lost someone close and went to a medium who told her things nobody could have known. She even mentioned the person she had lost by name and I thought about the obituaries, but the surnames were different - how could this happen?

[Jackalgirl]

One question I do have is that my sister in law (also a firm believer) lost someone close and went to a medium who told her things nobody could have known. She even mentioned the person she had lost by name and I thought about the obituaries, but the surnames were different - how could this happen?

That's where a transcript or tape recorder would come in handy -- the first thing you'd want to establish is that the medium referred to the deceased by surname (and actually, definitively did so; the memory is a tricky thing, which is why it's handy to have recording devices). The second thing you'd want to determine is whether the medium "fished" for information (for example, if I tell you that I'm sensing a name that starts with "B", and you confirm it, and, through the obits, I happen to know that someone named "Barbara" passed recently...). (A combination of hot and cold reading.)

Another thing I'd be curious about is whether the medium and your sister know each other outside of the medium's business, or share any common friends (who, perhaps, upon hearing about your sister's bereavement, suggested the medium, and then told the medium the details about the bereavement. (Hot reading.)

That's where I'd start, at least.

[Beady]

That's where a transcript or tape recorder would come in handy -- the first thing you'd want to establish is that the medium referred to the deceased by surname (and actually, definitively did so; the memory is a tricky thing, which is why it's handy to have recording devices).

Again, this is something Ian Rowland suggests, with the caveat that you make your own recording and not depend on one supplied by the psychic (possibly for an extra fee). Wait a week or so, then compare your memory to the tape. It would also be interesting to compare a recording you make yourself, covertly (recorder in the pocket, etc), with one supplied by the medium (after s/he's had a chance to edit it).

[H3LL]

Big Les' psychic powers seem to have found a site without the usual disclaimers.

The owner of that site is a criminal.



The Fradulent Mediums Act 1951....This law was introduced to replace the Witchcraft Act of 1735 and makes any person eligible for up to two years in prison who “with intent to deceive, purports to act as a spiritualistic medium or to exercise any powers of telepathy, clairvoyance or other similar powers”.
Source: The Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article1637254.ece)

WHOIS has an address (Rotherham) but a different name.

Any locals?

If anyone went to any psychic or medium that did not make it clear that what they were doing was for entertainment purposes only, they are a criminal.

.

[catbasket]

Hi Becky, and welcome to the forums!

I've only skimmed through other people's replies so forgive me if I'm repeating a point that's already been made.

... and about 5 people had recommended her to me so I thought she was the real deal ...

So five people who know you pretty well (well enough to recommend a psychic to you) have already had sessions with the psychic. Isn't it possible that one or more of those five has unintentionally already given the psychic some personal info about you? For example someone says to the psychic "I have a friend Becky who might like a session with you ... she's concerned about X, Y and Z. I'll recommend you to her ..."

One question I do have is that my sister in law (also a firm believer) lost someone close and went to a medium who told her things nobody could have known. She even mentioned the person she had lost by name and I thought about the obituaries, but the surnames were different - how could this happen?

"Nobody could have known"? Not even close friends or relations? And maybe one of those who did know was the person who recommended that psychic to your sister in law?


No, you are not silly. Many people here (myself included) have believed in some pretty weird stuff in the past. If you do stick around you'll also find people who still believe in weird stuff - no matter how much evidence against their beliefs is presented to them.

[sophia8]

No, you are not silly. Many people here (myself included) have believed in some pretty weird stuff in the past. If you do stick around you'll also find people who still believe in weird stuff - no matter how much evidence against their beliefs is presented to them.I'll tell you some of my story. Back when I was much younger, I was a pretty firm believer in all thing paranormal and supernatural. So was my (then) husband - he was even more a believer. One day, we both went to see a medium for a reading. She was amazingly accurate, telling us things she couldn't possibly have guessed. She even told us she could see us in the near future running a shop, with my husband learning to play music. We had actually been discussing those plans during the week!
After the reading, on the way home, I enthused about it. "Yes, she is good" said my husband, "I could feel her psychic power as soon as I met her at X's house last week."
"You've met her before?" This was the first I had heard of it.
"Yes," he went on happily, "We talked about lots of things."
"So" I said, "You could have told her all that?"
"Perhaps. But what does it matter if I did? She's definately in contact with the Higher Beings - what she said just confirmed that our plans will be fulfilled!"

Of course, none of the medium's predictions came about. In fact, she never said a word about the divorce, death, illnesses etc that were to hit us in the next four or five years.

So, Becky, please don't feel silly!

[Carnivore]

One question I do have is that my sister in law (also a firm believer) lost someone close and went to a medium who told her things nobody could have known. She even mentioned the person she had lost by name and I thought about the obituaries, but the surnames were different - how could this happen?

Occams razor:"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one. In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest hypothetical entities."

In your sisters case we have at least two competing theories for how the medium knew certain information.

1) The medium knew the name of the person your sister in law lost by contacting spirits of the dead.

2) The medium knew the name of the person your sister in law lost by obtaining information through conventional means.

On the face of it, both seem unlikely but which possible explanation depends on the fewest assumptions?

In the case of 1) we have to assume that contact with spirits is possible. We also have to assume that they can give specific, reliable information to the living.

Can we test these assumptions? Well, we can look into the scientific evidence of contact with the dead. In spite of decades of research by dedicated people who truly wanted (http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/NS2000.html) to believe in survival after death (and who wouldnt?) there simply isnt any. No murder victim has ever named their killer when that information was not public. No spirit of a kidnap victim has ever directed searchers to their body. Shakespeare will show up for a seance but not give any information about those aspects of his life that are lost to history. Famous authors whose works have been lost do not dictate them from beyonfd the grave. In response to a JREF members query every police force in Britain recently issued statements that "psychic" abilities had never assisted in the solving of a criminal case. We can note that the Ministry of Defence recently carried out it's own research into whether psychic abilities could be used to help defend the nation. No such abilities could be detected (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6388575.stm), let alone harnessed. Interestingly, all of the professional psychics (who were advertising their services online) contacted by the MOD refused to take part in the research, just as all high profile mediums steadfastly refuse to have their abilities tested under controlled conditions. The JREF million is still unclaimed.

We can look into the history of the mediums and the spiritualist movement. We can note that it was invented out of whole cloth by two sisters (http://www.infoplease.com/biography/var/foxsisters.html) who admitted that what they were doing was fraud and demonstrated their ability to reproduce "supernatural" phenomena at will - but not before spiritualism became a fad that swept the Western world in the late 19th century. We can note that the famous mediums of the heyday of spiritualism in the 1920s could produce spectacular effects that psychics today cant emulate - musical instruments appearing in thin air, levitation, ectoplasm emerging from a mediums body and assuming human forms - until they were all caught red handed in blatant fraud.

We can examine the methods of modern charlatans who have been caught in trickery, from the unsophisticated lies of Derek Acorah to the hot readings via concealed radio earpiece of faith healer Peter Popoff.

Clearly there is little on which to base an assumption of psychic ability and accuracy, and much to be suspicious of.

In the case of 2) We have to assume that someone can obtain and be in possession of information about someone without their knowledge through non supernatural means.

In this case it is easy to find examples from our everyday lives. A simple google search will reveal biographical details of nearly anyone who has been in the public eye. Your bank will advise you to shred personal documents before binning them because of the danger of identity theft. Family gossip. You will probably know some personal details of people you have never met, relatives of friends for instance. If I ever happen to meet the parents of one of my coworkers I could amaze them with my psychic powers, giving them chapter and verse of their medical history and problems with fitted kitchens. ;)

In the case of your sister in law it is impossible for us to know specifically how the medium gained that information - we only have a very small part of the picture. Was the medium a complete stranger? What was the information flow between your sister in law and the medium? Did your sister in law visit the medium on the recommendation of someone else? Is it possible the medium and your sister in law have mutual acquaintances? How private was the information given?

The very fact that your sister in law was given such specific information sends up a red flag for me. Vague generalities are very much the rule when dealing with mediums - often spirits dont seem too sure what their name is. If the spirit is capable of providing very exact information it should be able to do so consistently. If this was just one piece of bang on personal information amid a sea of fishing for further details I would be extremely suspicious.

If this is a professional medium who advertises their services would you consider identifying them so that others might evaluate them for themselves? It may be someone who somebody here has run into before, or has some knowledge of their methods.

[ObscureReferenceMan]

Welcome, Becky!!

People have related some great stories, and given some spot-on advice - as well as good homework assignments! ;)

Let me throw my $.02 in as well... Part of being a skeptic is being aware of the mistakes we can make in our thinking. Things like Confirmation bias (http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html), the Forer effect (http://skepticwiki.no-ip.org/index.php/Forer_Effect) and a LOT of other cognitive biases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases).

I remember when I first heard about these, I was shocked and surprised that I made these mistakes myself. Once you're aware of how easy it is to fall into the trap of "wrong thinking", it really puts things into perspective.

[CynicalSkeptic]

One question I do have is that my sister in law (also a firm believer) lost someone close and went to a medium who told her things nobody could have known. She even mentioned the person she had lost by name and I thought about the obituaries, but the surnames were different - how could this happen?

Without an exact transcript (or videotape) of the event, it's impossible to say, but most likely, A combination of good cold reading, lucky guesses, confirmation bias on the part of your SIL, vague hints from the medium that your SIL filled in the missing info, and later remembered incorrectly.

Did the medium say "John Smith was killed in a car wreck" or was it something like "I see the letter G or J, and a tragic event"? While your SIL, probably remembers it as the former, I'd bet money it was closer to the latter (of course we'll never know without a recording). Human memory is pretty poor to begin with, and add in the fact that she was grieving, it's not at all a stretch to believe that her memory is faulty. And that's not intended as an insult to her at all.

[Becky78]

I know you're all going to jump up and down now as I am asking the same questions over again, but I have just spoken to a friend who has just been to a "party" for a reading and the woman knew quite a lot of stuff. I have just informed my friend all about cold reading techniques and as she is a great believer she obviously didn't listen to a word, but there was one thing that even made me wonder. The lady told her nannan was there with a teddy that she had as a little girl and named the teddy (the name now escapes me!) - how could she have known this? This is the kind of stuff that stops me from being a true sceptic no matter how much I read.
Sorry if this is dull for you all :)

[Becky78]

sorry just remembered the name of the bear - Suki - so not a common name.

[Miss Anthrope]

Unless you were present at the reading, you have no idea what is true here. Not to say your friend is lying, but they may have embellished the story. I was once a cold reader and upon videotaping my readings, I found that MOST people said I had said something specific like this when in fact I hadn't. People very much want to believe, and they very much want to make it sound credible to others.

[FramerDave]

...there was one thing that even made me wonder. The lady told her nannan was there with a teddy that she had as a little girl and named the teddy (the name now escapes me!) - how could she have known this? This is the kind of stuff that stops me from being a true sceptic no matter how much I read.

Well if you weren't there to witness it it's hard to say just how much it really means, as has been mentioned. And maybe your frined remembers it as she wanted it to happen, not as it really did?

For instance, did the medium come out and say "I see your little teddy you had when you were little. His name is...Suki."

Or was it more like:

"I see that you had a favorite little stuffed animal when you were a little girl. It was...I'm seeing...a...tiger maybe...a bear?"

"Yes. It was a bear. I used to carry him around all the time!"

"Yes, you loved your little bear. His name was...R...P...S.."

"Yes! Little Suki!"

"Of course, your little Suki. You were in tears when you lost him that time."


And on like that. Your friend was probably so dazzled and taken in that she didn't remember the misses and fumbling around, and didn't even notice that she gave the medium the name. That's why an unedited video would be interesting to see. Of course geussing a bear would be an easy hit, since nearly every child has had a teddy at some point, and most of them went lost at some point.

[Warge]

Right, guess I should say hello too. I'm late (as usual to almost any thread, but nevermind that) and I guess I could give you some newbie advice, since I'm very new here too.

Read a lot! I don't post much, but I read as much as I possibly can. People here are resourceful and more often than usual on forums post links to scientific articles to back up their comments. This is a great way to learn more about anything that might be fraud, woo-woo or just plain wrong.

One thing though: Take small steps in the beginning, since there is a LOT to take in. I tried reading every thread in every forum but that's impossible to keep up with, especially since most threads become very long very fast.

Also, don't hesitate to ask questions whenever something pops up that you are unfamiliar with. The forumites are always glad to help.

There, some newbie advice from the newbie. Welcome!

[Miss Anthrope]

Right, guess I should say hello too. I'm late (as usual to almost any thread, but nevermind that) and I guess I could give you some newbie advice, since I'm very new here too.

Read a lot! I don't post much, but I read as much as I possibly can. People here are resourceful and more often than usual on forums post links to scientific articles to back up their comments. This is a great way to learn more about anything that might be fraud, woo-woo or just plain wrong.

One thing though: Take small steps in the beginning, since there is a LOT to take in. I tried reading every thread in every forum but that's impossible to keep up with, especially since most threads become very long very fast.

Also, don't hesitate to ask questions whenever something pops up that you are unfamiliar with. The forumites are always glad to help.

There, some newbie advice from the newbie. Welcome!

Allow me to offer a very late, but very warm welcome Warge!

[TX50]

Big Les' psychic powers seem to have found a site without the usual disclaimers.

The owner of that site is a criminal.

[...]

If anyone went to any psychic or medium that did not make it clear that what they were doing was for entertainment purposes only, they are a criminal.

.

But isn't the "with intent to deceive" clause in the act the clincher? If these
nutbags really believe they can do this (and how could you prove otherwise
in court?) then no offence has been committed. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.

[Senex]

Becky,

You know how to use the Internet and read what a "cold" reading is. You also can read what a "warm" and "hot" reading is as well as what anyone on this site can caution you on.

You want something you haven't asked. Do you live near Connecticut?

[ObscureReferenceMan]

I've heard the claim that a medium/psychic "told me things they couldn't possibly have known" before. And I think FramerDave called it right. Did the medium really come right out with the exact name? Or was there "fishing" going on, and the name was slowly worked out? Another explanation... If it was a "psychic party", is it possible someone else knew about the bear's name, and the info was leaked before?

I remember reading (probably linked from this forum) about a medium who did a reading for a woman, and the woman gave the "she couldn't possibly know" line. But when the transcript was checked, it turned out that all the (verifiable) details the medium gave was re-hashed info previously provided by the subject.

One word of warning... I find it's best not to be too confrontational, especially with friends. People that believe are firmly entrenched in their belief. Any doubts, skepticism or probing questions from you will likely be seen as an attack on their beliefs. In my opinion, this is what makes the "believers" truly closed-minded. Skeptics are actually open-minded. We would be happy to find out that mediums, ESP, dowsing, etc. were real. But the evidence doesn't support this world view.

[AmyWilson]

John Edward is a legitimate medium. Buy his books and read them. :)

It's true.

[Miss Anthrope]

John Edward is a classic cold reader. Google John Edward debunked and read the links.

It's true.

Uhg. Amy, you must be a parody sock.

:bigcat

[Becky78]

Like you all say I only have my friends word for this and she is not budging, she is firmly set in her beliefs. I guess that would have been me a few months ago, until I started questioning all this stuff. Actually after I had told her about cold reading and my previous experience with the other medium she actually said well we're going to have her back - why don't you come? Errm no I just said I don't believe!

She said a few things that made me laugh too - like how the medium could see her boys squabbling over an electrical item and my friend thought this was a really good hit - errm how many kids don't fight over dvd players, gaming machines, etc!

Warge - thanks for your words - it is such a lot to take in - I have been trying to read every thread. It's so hard to totally change your belief system - especially when you have so many people around you who believe. I have been telling my mum all this stuff and I thought I had explained everything and got her round to a skeptical way of thinking and last night she came out with - "well some of them are genuine!".

PS even I know John Edward is rubbish:D

[Jackalgirl]

Hi, Becky --

Everyone's covered the major bases. I just wanted to jump in and offer some more detail about "hot" reading. "Cold" reading is where you're fishing. "Hot" reading is where you've obtained information beforehand. For example, Peter Popoff, a famous televangelist, seemed to be getting very specific information about people in the audience...until James Randi demonstrated that he was receiving, via an earpiece, information from his wife, who'd been pumping the crowds. As I understand it, it's not uncommon for cons to have people circulate through the waiting audience (who, of course, are made to wait for a reason), asking things like "isn't this exciting? What are /you/ going to ask [insert con name here]?"

So, another possible answer to the Suki result is that either your friend had told the medium about Suki earlier and didn't remember it, or that a mutual friend had told the medium all about your friend and her bear.

That's why it's so important to get all of the details before accepting the anecdote. As the fine folk here have pointed out, memories are not always particularly reliable, and people tend to "count the hits and forget the misses".

PS even I know John Edward is rubbish:D

I agree wholeheartedly (I detest the man for what he's doing to the memory of departed people -- he's evil)! And you've recognized one of our hit-and-run trolls, Amy Wilson. Good job! : )

[Jackalgirl]

...Actually after I had told her about cold reading and my previous experience with the other medium she actually said well we're going to have her back - why don't you come? Errm no I just said I don't believe!...

Although it might be interesting to go in there with a tape recorder and make a transcript, hm?

She said a few things that made me laugh too - like how the medium could see her boys squabbling over an electrical item and my friend thought this was a really good hit - errm how many kids don't fight over dvd players, gaming machines, etc!

Indeed. One has to ask oneself -- how come messages from the Other Side are so darn vague? It's like once you're dead, you can only spit out astrology predictions or something.

[Becky78]

Thanks Jakal Girl - that's one of the big things that made me have doubts - things not being very accuarate and why if as in the case of my reading if my Grandma was there and I thought it was my dads mum all the way through the reading and it was actually my mum's mum did she not just say no it's Mary or something along those lines.

If you are talking to the dead why can't they tell you things that make you believe beyond a shadow of a doubt. Why don't they just say I'm Mary the grandmother on her mums side and I died on this date of this, etc etc

The medium did a tape for my friend so maybe I can listen to that and maybe I will go to the next reading and ask her to come here and take the challenge :)

[Azrael 5]

No-one from spirit world ever mentions religion.Ever.Not God,heaven,Allah,angels,1,000 virgins nothing.

Jeez even Hell could get a mention occasionally surely!

[Becky78]

No-one from spirit world ever mentions religion.Ever.Not God,heaven,Allah,angels,1,000 virgins nothing.

no there is just one big happy family on "the other side"

[Big Les]

I don't know if this helps Becky, but I read today that author Marian Keyes (http://www.metro.co.uk/fame/interviews/article.html?in_article_id=51005&in_page_id=11)looked into mediumship with an open mind to help with research for a novel on the subject. She was far from impressed:

Your last book featured mediums. Did you research any? Were you convinced?

I met around ten in London, Dublin and New York, both one on one and in big audiences. I thought they were all complete swizzes, every single one of them. I went into it hopeful. I was prepared to give them a chance but they were such liars. I was only doing research but if you’d lost someone, you’d be in a terribly vulnerable position. I found some of them downright disgusting, onstage saying: ‘I’ve got a Maureen coming through; has anyone got a Maureen?’ It was so obvious it was fake.

[Becky78]

I read that book! One medium in the book kind of makes a hit, but another really famous one is total rubbish - of course it's all fiction :D

[Beady]

The medium did a tape for my friend so maybe I can listen to that and maybe I will go to the next reading and ask her to come here and take the challenge :)

2nd point first, it's absolutely astounding, how many different reasons there are to not take the challenge. Let's see... Investigations and such cast "negative energy" over the attempt, ensuring that it won't work; the medium doesn't want or need the money, or doesn't want to soil their "talent," etc; the Challenge is a fraud; the money doesn't exist; and so on.

1st point: Where was the tape in the time period between the reading and when your friend physically took posession of it, and how long was that time period?

[Becky78]

From what I can gather it was started when the reading began and stopped and handed straight to my friend when the reading had finished so I don't see how it could have been tampered with.

[Warge]

@Miss Anthrope: Thanks! I guess it's my fault since I didn't start a thread properly...

@Becky: You said you are changing your belief and I guess this is were we differ- I was a sceptic long before I joined (I thought I was quite alone in not believing all the BS we are fed from everywhere) but I would like to say this:

What you are experiencing is a 'revolution', a total remake of a part of your personality. I think that you will experience some resitasnce from yourself in this, but sooner or later when you have gained enough experience of the other side (no pun intended) you will realize your errors and be able to stand up and say: I was wrong.

The only way I have experienced something like it is in a few political questions, but the principle is the same.

Oh yes, one thing I have learned when dealing with believers is that it is quite exciting watching their belief crumble when asked for evidence or simply questioning their way and behaviour. It might not always change them immediately, but a seed has been planted.

And if in doubt, always refer to jref.org. :D

[Beady]

Oh yes, one thing I have learned when dealing with believers is that it is quite exciting watching their belief crumble...

Exciting?

Perhaps we should back up a moment, and Becky could describe what it felt like. Then we can discuss whether "excitement" is appropriate.

Myself, I never thought that skepticism should preclude compassion.

[Becky78]

I guess it's exciting if you've been a sceptic all your life and you watch a believer not believing, but when you've been a believer it's horrid...and there's still a little bit of you that hangs on to that belief even when you read all the stuff about cold reading and hot reading and you know how it's done. There's still that tiny bit of you that thinks how can I have been duped for my entire life?! How silly have I been to be played by that and not seen it and surely if so many people believe there must be some truth in it. That's why everytime someone tells me something like my friend with the bear I'm like oh maybe it's real - because I am still clinging to some hope that everything I have ever believed might be real (although I now know it's not!) Hope that makes sense.

[Zep]

Becky, you may think that you are facing jumping off a diving board into a fog and not knowing how high it is - kinda very scary. But it's actually no jump at all but a step down onto solid land with clear skies. Try it!

Also, can I ask: try to remember if you needed to book in advance, and/or had to pay for any services by credit card at any point. Yes?

[Becky78]

Yes I booked in advance, but didn't give any credit card details. I remember I told her I had a baby too as I asked if it would be OK to take him and on the way to her house I got lost so spent lots of time on the phone with her. I don't think I gave anything away, but thinking back I can't be sure.

[jimtron]

I know you're all going to jump up and down now as I am asking the same questions over again, but I have just spoken to a friend who has just been to a "party" for a reading and the woman knew quite a lot of stuff. I have just informed my friend all about cold reading techniques and as she is a great believer she obviously didn't listen to a word, but there was one thing that even made me wonder. The lady told her nannan was there with a teddy that she had as a little girl and named the teddy (the name now escapes me!) - how could she have known this? This is the kind of stuff that stops me from being a true sceptic no matter how much I read.
Sorry if this is dull for you all :)

Welcome Becky! There have been many good posts describing what may have happened here. Another way to look at this: how come no psychic can do this under proper test conditions? If there are folks who can read minds and remote view and find missing people--it would be good to study these abilities and put them to good use. How about warning us about 9/11? Finding Bin Laden? Missing children (I know psychics claim they can do this, but look at the actual record and it doesn't seem to be the case).

If a psychic can accurately predict the future, that would be so easy to prove. Start making specific predictions here at this forum, or to a reliable reporter, or in newspaper classified ads. If a medium can talk to dead people, ask them something very personal, that only you and the deceased know (not something that could be a public record, or found through spying or research). Why hasn't anyone been able to demonstrate paranormal ability under scrutiny? The other explanations (cold and hot reading, etc.) sure seem a lot more likely.

[Becky78]

Hi Jimtron

I know that what you are saying is totally right, it's just accepting it that is so hard!

When I visited a medium I had gone in there with a specific thing I wanted her to say about my nan - something she used to call me that nobody could have known. As it was she couldn't even tell if it was dad's or mum's mum that was with her! I think I said before but surely whoever was with her would have said " no love you've got it wrong it's Mary". As it was she didn't give my grandparents any names so she covered herself totally.

She told me a lot of things and gave me a lot of names that I didn't know about and backed those up with you ask your parents I'm sure it'll be true. When you're looking for answers you cling to these things in the hope they're true.

Now I know that she didn't really get any specific hits and the ones she did get were very easy to guess at.

I agree if there were real psychic ability then people would be more ready to be tested and in a controlled test.

[Zep]

Yes I booked in advance, but didn't give any credit card details. I remember I told her I had a baby too as I asked if it would be OK to take him and on the way to her house I got lost so spent lots of time on the phone with her. I don't think I gave anything away, but thinking back I can't be sure.So the psychic had your name well in advance, plus your address probably, or at least your phone number (from the caller-ID of your phone). There are "reverse phone books" on the internet (a standard psychic's tool!) that can get your name and address from your phone number. A credit card number is just as useful.

With that info, they can start looking up all the same info that any family-tree researcher would look for, and much of this is already online. Your family history, birth and death and marriage info, perhaps news stories, local connections, even juicy tidbits you may not have known about. A few minutes Googling will bring up all sorts of stuff about you! "Name" psychics get their assistants to do this for them!

And you may have also inadvertantly given away a few more bits as well before you got there. It takes very little to build up a complete detailed picture. PLUS all the cold-reading stuff on the day.

So you see it is predictably VERY easy to be "psychic" if you already know all about the subject before they even walk in the door for their reading... Money for old rope!

[jimtron]

I know that what you are saying is totally right, it's just accepting it that is so hard!

I feel for you. Take your time and give yourself a chance to deal with this major change. I'm sure you'll be better off in the long run.

[Becky78]

I feel for you. Take your time and give yourself a chance to deal with this major change. I'm sure you'll be better off in the long run.

I totally agree! I am just reading anything and everything I can right now. I just found out my sisters new boyfriends great great Aunt was Helen Duncan so had great fun googling her and seeing her totally debunked :D I would have just took her story at face value before. It's much more interesting to challenge these things than just accept them.

[Flo]

I guess it's exciting if you've been a sceptic all your life and you watch a believer not believing,

and it's not someone you know personnally, and you don't have to see the pain when his worldview crumbles in front of him and live and help through the phases of the changes.


but when you've been a believer it's horrid...and there's still a little bit of you that hangs on to that belief even when you read all the stuff about cold reading and hot reading and you know how it's done. There's still that tiny bit of you that thinks how can I have been duped for my entire life?! How silly have I been to be played by that and not seen it and surely if so many people believe there must be some truth in it. That's why everytime someone tells me something like my friend with the bear I'm like oh maybe it's real - because I am still clinging to some hope that everything I have ever believed might be real (although I now know it's not!) Hope that makes sense.


Take heart, Becky. As you've seen, most skeptics don't think you've been silly, they don't gloat over what you're going through (many had the same experience), and contrary to their reputation at the hands of the woo-mafia, they do care about the (ex-) believers' feelings.

[Becky78]

Thanks Flo - I know most people don't think I am silly, but I do - I feel totally taken in!! :)

[Zep]

And becky, when you realise you have been taken in, that's when you start to understand how poorly you have been served by others who have been trying to rip off your beliefs.

It also makes us extremely angry at how the memories of our loved ones have been misused. We all have lingering memories of deceased family members and friends - some lost under tragic circumstances, most sorely missed for a very long time. Skeptics are not the slightest bit immune to grief, I assure you. Their legacy is in the rememberances of those of us who live past them, and who continue to miss them. So it is all the more tragic that these precious memories should be abused and traded on and trodden on shamelessly, especially for what is purely naked greed.

End of sermon!

Incidentally, many skeptics DO like to be taken in, but deliberately and with knowledge aforethought. It's called "the art of illusion", or more commonly, "magic!" We do appreciate a beautifully done piece of magician's illusion, especially if you can't quite work out how it is done. (That's most of the fun, actually - speculating on the mechanism, while knowing it IS an illusion.)