Atheism and kids

[Denise]

I am an atheist as in I don't believe there is enough evidence to prove a diety although I don't deny one could exist outside my scope of knowledge.

My daughter is now ten. She claims to be an atheist also, but she really hasn't given it as much thought to where I think she is making a rational decision. Not that she is unable to... I am worried that she is just parroting what I believe and that is so not groovy.

She has not been raised in any religion, although some of her extended family members are religious namely her great grandmother.

I want her to arrive at a decision herself without feeling that I am forcing my opinion upon her, but I also do not want her to go to a religious institution to learn religion because I am afraid of indoctrination. I'm talking about the peer pressure etc.

So how do I help her to arrive at her own opinion? I don't again want a child that just repeats what her parent thinks. I want to encourage her to think.

Any suggestions? Thanks!

[Yahweh]

Most children will tend to emulate their parents as much as they can. Almost all kids will tend to be the same religion as their mommy and daddy.

There is nothing wrong with it. At 10, your daughter probably doesnt realize exactly how large a role religion plays in life. It doesnt matter if she hasnt reasoned why she's one religion and not another (actually, a pretty fair amount of adults dont know why they are one religion and not another either).

So your daughter is only 10 and she already considers herself an atheist, well make sure you let her know that some of the other kids might believe in god. Some kids can become fiercely defensive (and on occasion abusive) toward other kids because they dont worship god... or believe in Santa, how many people remember the kids who were convinced saying you dont believe in ol' Saint Nick would cause you to lose one more present come Christmas.

As most kids grow up, their religion starts to become a part of their personality. And, as kids grow up, they start to discover just a little more. Dont worry about encouraging your daughter to think critically about faith and religion just yet, religion is simply too overwhelming to rationalize and analyze at that age. Eventually she'll rationalize why she is an atheist.

Odds are, your daughter will probably remain an atheist her entire life.

[komencanto]

Hey, I´m 16 and an atheist the same.
I think 10 is a bit young. I remember that I started really doing the reasoning thing at about 12-13, although I was kind of interested before that.
Wait it out, and then (when she starts asking good questions) explain to her why you believe what you do and invite her to ask whatever she wants. But of course explain she can choose any religion she likes (except being Almish or a scientologist). She will probably choose atheism.
Good idea to explain that not everyone is going to agree with her and she might not want to go shouting her atheisism from the rooftops until shes ready for the effects.
Just my 2 cents.

[Small Town Jesus]

Ten seems a bit young for you to be worrying about your daughter's apparent lack of considered views.

It is usually teenagers that start questioning their parents beliefs (or lack of). There is also the possibility that she may be subject to some pressure from religious groups either at school or from friends over the next few years. I'm sure you won't regret bringing her up with a grounding in critical thinking, as that will be the time to encourage her to start thinking for herself.

I'm sure she'll consider herself very fortunate to have a mother willing to discuss these things intelligently and openly. :)

STJ.

[Yahweh]

In 6 years, if your daughter comes home one day, dressed all in black, with a black hooded sweatshirt, doesnt talk much, and wearing a pentagram necklace, and talks about pixies, dont worry, she'll normal off in about 17 years and frequent skeptic forums calling herself Yahweh--er perhaps something a little less masculine sounding...

[FireGarden]

Denise
I want her to arrive at a decision herself without feeling that I am forcing my opinion upon her, but I also do not want her to go to a religious institution to learn religion because I am afraid of indoctrination. I'm talking about the peer pressure etc.

So how do I help her to arrive at her own opinion? I don't again want a child that just repeats what her parent thinks. I want to encourage her to think.

Any suggestions? Thanks!
Perhaps this isn't the best topic to start on.

Pick a topic where she doesn't know your opinion, or one where you disagree already. (There must be one!!)

Or, perhaps better, ask her to argue for something that she's against. Even for something that is obviously wrong.

That might teach her to be a troll, but it's important to be able to see the other side of an argument. There must be a troll-free middle ground. Read my sig.


(And I don't think that 10 is too young, I was argumentative at that age - and earlier)

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by GoodPropaganda
Pick a topic where she doesn't know your opinion, or one where you disagree already. (There must be one!!)
"Clean your room."
"Eat all your dinner or no dessert."
"Sign the souls of your friends over to me."
"Go to bed."
"We're not buying another [insert item here]"

[kedo1981]

Myself I try never to put down religion per say, but I try to help my kids see a point of view that involves logic and science. I know my share of Bible “trivia” so most of those questions I can answer, and I tend to direct the conversation past the cute Sunday school stories to the hatful meat of the bible.
For instance I might point out that although Jesus is said to have healed a few people he is clamed to have said it is right to murder “witches”, a small phrase that has cause countless acts of torture and death (Jesus loves me this I know) .

[crocodile deathroll]

If the parents are atheists (like myself) then I feel they should break it to their kids that there is no god the same day the break it to them there is no such thing as Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

[FireGarden]

Here's a concrete idea for developing critical thinking:

Read newspaper reports together, and discuss them. Decide on:
- - The source of the story. Is it an eyewitness report? A second-hand, he-said she-said report?
- - Which parts are presented as facts, and which parts are conclusions/opinions arrived at by the jounalist?
- - What pieces of information can we confirm/refute ourselves?
- - When politicians, etc are being asked questions, ask whether or not the question has been answered.
I'm sure other important points can be raised.

You can look for logical falacies in TV debate programs (they have debates in newspapers also, sometimes)

And, of course, you can discuss debate itself!!
Ask your daughter what she thinks makes a good argument? I'd be interested to find out.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by crocodile deathroll
If the parents are atheists (like myself) then I feel they should break it to their kids that there is no god the same day the break it to them there is no such thing as Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.
Oh, and I supposed the Great Pumpkin isnt real either :rolleyes:.


:D :D :D

[justsaygnosis]

Originally posted by Denise
So how do I help her to arrive at her own opinion? I don't again want a child that just repeats what her parent thinks. I want to encourage her to think.

Any suggestions? Thanks!

She will arrive at her own perceptions and opinions as all people do. How she will arrive at those things and when is impossible to precisely determine and orchestrate.
I know no one on this board except what I glean from their posts but you appear to possess a liberal mindset in regard to other's opinions while retaining your own.
If your daughter has inherited that ability from you she'll be OK.
It's enigmatic how 'believing' parents may have to accept that their offspring have grown to atheism and vice versa.
Parenting remains one of the world's most difficult occupations.
Maybe the two of you could spend time together on the myriads of bulletin boards out in cyber space and she can see for herself the differences and similarities that exist between 'hard' believers and 'soft' believers as well as 'hard' atheists' and 'soft' atheists.

[Kevin_Lowe]

This is my take on it.

Telling your child there is no God is not forcing your opinion on them, it is telling them a simple fact. Like telling them the earth is not flat.

Some sadly deluded folks believe that there is a God. Others believe that the earth is flat. They are both wrong, though, and you are not depriving your child of a choice by telling them the facts of the matter.

[Small Town Jesus]

It's interesting how Richard Dawkins has been talking recently about how children are labeled. Children of Catholic parents are 'Catholic Children', of Muslim parents - 'Muslim Children' etc etc.

It is good I feel, that children of atheist parents are allowed to develop in their own time into whatever they want to be. No one is labeled an 'Atheist' unless they have arrived at that position themselves. No one refers to them as 'Atheist Children' just because their parents are. Or am I wrong?

[thaiboxerken]

Just be glad she doesn't believe in the BS that religions teach.

Now, work on her reasoning abilities and teach her critical thinking skills. Then, hopefully, she'll not believe in gods because there is no evidence of them. Teach her science and biology.. evolution and math.

I wouldn't worry that she's just emulating you, that's what kids do. Teach her the other skills so that she will become a young lady that will make her own decisions and you'll be fine.

[Yahzi]

Another vote for "don't worry about it." She's only 10, she doesn't need reasons for all her views yet.

[Denise]

Originally posted by GoodPropaganda
Denise

Perhaps this isn't the best topic to start on.

Pick a topic where she doesn't know your opinion, or one where you disagree already. (There must be one!!)

Or, perhaps better, ask her to argue for something that she's against. Even for something that is obviously wrong.

That might teach her to be a troll, but it's important to be able to see the other side of an argument. There must be a troll-free middle ground. Read my sig.


(And I don't think that 10 is too young, I was argumentative at that age - and earlier)

Actually, we argue about things quite a lot. It's almost a cornerstone of our relationship- must be a mother and daughter thing. She just convinced me to let her use her own money to buy another bike. She wrote a one page letter telling me how much better this bike would be than the old one and it was quite a good opinion paper for a ten year old.

[swstephe]

The most important thing is not the rationalization, but whether she is respected and gets the proper amount of attention and support.

My father was an athiest, so I decided I was one too when I was about 9 or so. But my parents didn't do things with kids, they were still partying like it was college. I was ripe for the picking from fundamentalists pretending like they would act as a surrogate family, call me "brother" and spend time with me. Of course, like most fundamentalists, as soon as you settle into a pattern they are gone unless you can entertain them or validate their beliefs and fit into the narrow model of their lifestyle.

As most fathers, I decided I would avoid the mistakes of my parents. Most of my time is spent paying attention to my daughters, doing what they want to do and supporting them in what they are interested in. I take their topics and do research on them. In a few hours, I'll be watching their fashion show, (they made the clothes), at the county fair. You have to learn to be patient and willing to humble your own needs for things that may seem childish.

[crocodile deathroll]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Oh, and I supposed the Great Pumpkin isnt real either :rolleyes:.


:D :D :D

Do you mean Gourd Almighty the creator of the great veggy patch in the sky? :wink8:

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Denise
I am an atheist as in I don't believe there is enough evidence to prove a diety although I don't deny one could exist outside my scope of knowledge.

My daughter is now ten. She claims to be an atheist also, but she really hasn't given it as much thought to where I think she is making a rational decision. Not that she is unable to... I am worried that she is just parroting what I believe and that is so not groovy.

She has not been raised in any religion, although some of her extended family members are religious namely her great grandmother.

I want her to arrive at a decision herself without feeling that I am forcing my opinion upon her, but I also do not want her to go to a religious institution to learn religion because I am afraid of indoctrination. I'm talking about the peer pressure etc.

So how do I help her to arrive at her own opinion? I don't again want a child that just repeats what her parent thinks. I want to encourage her to think.

Any suggestions? Thanks!

I have wrestled with the same questions myself. I have come to the conclusion that children are going to pick up some values and ideas from their parents and it is both inevitable and there is nothing wrong with it. As for myself I just do my best to teach my kids to think for themselves and hope for the best. I think that's all any parent can do.

One suggestion though, sometimes when one of my kids is fervently expressing an opinion, I'll take a devil's advocate position, even if I agree 100% with what they are saying, just to try to make them think through both sides. It drives them nuts, especially the 13 year old who holds very, very strong opinions on many things, but I like to think that the message gets through. I hope so anyway.

[Nucular]

When my nephew was very small, he started coming home from school talking about things like Noah's Ark and Adam & Eve, having been actualy taught them as fact! This p*ssed me off enough to drum into him that "that's what some people believe, but I don't and here's why".

As he grew up a bit more, I realised, like you, that atheism had stuck, but that this might mean that he wasn't thinking it through for himself. So I sat down with him quite a lot, and read him lots of stories from lots of different religions (Viking myths were his favourite), and told him that some people believed these things, and some people didn't, but that the important thing was to think about it and make your own mind up. He did, and remained an atheist. He's fourteen now, and, I hope, still, thinks that kind of thing through.

There's a brilliant letter written by Richard Dawkins to his young daughter on this subject, published in various places; it might also be on the net. The basic point is, never assume someone's right just because of who they are, including me.

[Dylab]

I found the url for Dawkins letter here. (http://pub53.ezboard.com/fatheismfrm8.showMessage?topicID=40.topic)

[reprise]

My 11 year old has fasted at Ramadan for the last few years and wants to be baptised in the Anglican church next year when she turns 13. My 17 year old quite often reads the Bible when she's having a tough time. My 23 year old, although an atheist, believes that an "afterlife" of some kind exists.

It isn't my responsibility to decide for my children what they will believe. My responsibility is to teach them to think critically when evaluating the claims made by those who practise aprticular belief systems (this is as true of political and philosophical belief systems as of religious ones).

I think that the only mainstream religion which hasn't been explored by at least one of my children is Judaism, and that's only because we don't know any Jewish people.

I often think that my 23 year old parrots my political beliefs, rather than arriving at similar positions to mine on things political for his own reasons. It really annoys him when I tear apart his position on a particular issue on which he agrees with me - he's rapidly learning that even when our conclusions are in agreement, his conclusion isn't worth a damn unless he can defend it with solid reasoning.

Seriously Denise, I don't think being exposed to many religions has hurt my children at all. Very often they have been attracted primarily to the rituals of a particular religion or they have wanted to share an aspect of a friend's life which is important to that friend, but I've never really seen any indication that their exposure to religion has been likely to lead to them being indoctrinated.

Also, get your daughter involved in a debating team. Having to convincingly argue a position in which you do not personally believe is a great way of clarifying what you do believe and why.

[Brown]

Originally posted by Denise
I want her to arrive at a decision herself without feeling that I am forcing my opinion upon her, but I also do not want her to go to a religious institution to learn religion because I am afraid of indoctrination. I'm talking about the peer pressure etc.

So how do I help her to arrive at her own opinion? I don't again want a child that just repeats what her parent thinks. I want to encourage her to think.What follows is an opinion of a non-parent. (I am, however, a former child.)

Without discussing a particular religion, it may be possible to discuss what standards a religion should have. Some people are simply brought up into a particular religion, and the notion of whether or not the religion meets certain standards is simply omitted.

For example, can it be agreed that any religion worth following ought to allow people to raise questions? May questions be raised about history, ethics, self-consistency and science? Some religions actually encourage people to reaise such questions, and others actively discourage the practice. Perhaps you and your daughter could reach an agreement that any religion worth following would allow this sort of freedom.

Can it be agreed that any religion worth following should have the highest moral code, and that it should not condone cruelty or hypocrisy?

Can it be agreed that any religion worth following should not based upon the leadership of a single person?

Can it be agreed that any religion worth following should not make claims that are demonstrably false?

Can it be agreed that any religion worth following should not proclaim something right or wrong merely because some deity supposedly said so? In other words, can it be agreed that matters of right and wrong must be decided upon their merits, and not merely on the basis of pronouncements from a book or prominent person (who claim to speak on behalf of the deity)?

Some might say that no religion could meet such standards, but this is not so.

[bpesta22]

Originally posted by Dylab
I found the url for Dawkins letter here. (http://pub53.ezboard.com/fatheismfrm8.showMessage?topicID=40.topic)

Interesting letter for a 10 year old. Isn't Dawkins committing a fallacy here:

" Scientists - the specialists in discovering what is true about the world and the universe - often work like detectives. They make a guess ( called a hypothesis ) about what might be true. They then say to themselves: If that were really true, we ought to see so-and-so. This is called a prediction. For example, if the world is really round, we can predict that a traveller, going on and on in the same direction, should eventually find himself back where he started.When a doctor says that you have the measles, he doesn't take one look at you and see measles. His first look gives him a hypothesis that you may have measles. Then he says to himself: If she has measles I ought to see......


Isn't this the fallacy of affirming the consequent:

If theory X is true, Y should happen.

Y happens,

So, X is true.

Sorry to derail the thread, but it struck me as odd that someone like Dawkins would seemingly commit this fallacy.

Denise:

I only offer my views on God when someone else tries to offer their beliefs as true.

For example, I recently had to explain the absurdity of Noah's ark to my ten year old step daugher, who assumed it was true because her aunt said it was.

B

[swstephe]

My daughter, at 7 years old, asked me about Noah taking two of every kind, then immediately sacrificing some birds in thanks, (didn't he make them extinct), I added on that in another verse, he sacrifices 7 of every clean animal. The reason usually given is that the 2-animals had babies while on the Ark, which sounds silly if you know how long it takes to raise a chick. I guess I raised my daughters with a skeptical mind.

[Correa Neto]

My personal experience may be usefull for you. I belive that exposing children to information is the right way to go. They are intelligent (usually more then we think they are- they surprise us quite often, don´t they?) and deserve to be treated accordingly. Children are formed by the influence of their parents and community- if you live close to very religious persons your daughter will be somehow influenced by religion.

My mother is a religious person (not a fundamentalist), but she decided that I should be allowed to choose if I wanted to follow (or not) a given religion. For example, I was not bapthized (despite protests from other family members). She provided me a childhood environment where information regarding all topics (even the delicate ones that some people avoid talking about with people, such as sex and religion) was avalible. During my childhood and teen-years (which unfortunately are several years behind now) I had access to several religious texts (spanning from the Bible to Allan Kardec´s works, passing thorugh many oriental texts and so on - and yes, fundamentalist texts also, thanks to my grandmother - these were the source of many nightmares to me) and their various interpretations. At the same time, I had access to science books and texts (designed for children, of course). And she never avoided the troublesome topics. When she did not knew enough about the subject or if it was too controversial, she would tell me so. In my late teen years, I toyed with some religions, and never found one that sounded OK to me, one that could really account for the universe and life, and found that they all ultimately fail. And, after some time, I decided that becoming an agnostic person was my best shot.

Your daughter does not know (yet) the exact implications of her statement. She may (and most likely will) change her mind after some time (chances are this will happen more than just one time), but since she has and will continue to have free acces to information, she will find her way, choosing what suits her the best. Keep on providing information and having lenghty open discussions with her about all issues and she will eventually be able to understand and decide what she thinks about this and other issues.

I wish more children in the world were raised like that.