Putting my tummy where my mouth is.

[scholz]

In a demonstration of the powers of Homeopathy, after reading through the forums, and checking up on the various ingredients, I took a bottle (32 doses) of Hyland's Calms Forte in front of my class.
They were suitably awed by this, swearing that I was endangering my life. One student asked to film the experiment.

We talked about how Homeopathy is supposed to work, and the basically unknown quantities of materials I was consuming, since the 1X, 2X , and 3X claims do not translate into milligrams or anything useful like that.

With my permission one of the students called Hyland's Emergency 800 number and asked about the dangers of a 32 year old consuming 32 pills. I am actually 39, but it was nice to think I look 32 (it must be all the Chamomilla in my diet). I will see about getting the audio from this for you.

The operator transferred us to some kind of specialist who was surprised that anyone would consume so much. But, thankfully, she assured us that the Homeopathic medicines were made with very large margins of safety so even with 32 pills I shouldn't suffer any harmful effects. Whew. I really dodged a bullet.

I am suffering a little bit from the extra large burrito I had for lunch, but apart from that, I am still here. What is interesting is that some of the students believed that they could detect "signs" of nervousness or fatigue in me. I will chalk that up to the Availability Error and Confirmation Bas.

[gerdbonk]

she assured us that the Homeopathic medicines were made with very large margins of safety


Is that what they're calling extreme dilution now -- "very large margins of safety"?

What level are your students? Aside from those who sought to assign symptoms of distress to you, were any students moved to appreciate a skeptical view of homeopathy as a result of your demonstration?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I am currently drinking mass quantities of homeopathic water. So far, no problem.

Excellent demonstration, Scholz.

~~ Paul

[roger]

The real danger would have been taking a tiny, tiny dose.

[FaisonMars]

The real danger would have been taking a tiny, tiny dose.

As Randi likes to joke, did you hear about the guy who forgot to take his homeopathic treatment and died of an overdose?

[scholz]

Is that what they're calling extreme dilution now -- "very large margins of safety"?

What level are your students? Aside from those who sought to assign symptoms of distress to you, were any students moved to appreciate a skeptical view of homeopathy as a result of your demonstration?

These are college students in a PHIL100 Critical Thinking Class. I think everyone had a 'uh oh' moment as I did it. And I tried to explain that it is normal to be influenced by superstition and irrationality sometimes. Just like hearing a noise late at night might scare you, especially after watching a horror film. But, the mature thing to do, is realize, that is irrational.

I think the demonstration, especially the phone call, was very effective. I can talk a good game, but actually downing the bottle was a much more potent sign. And when the person on the speaker phone said to expect no harmful effects, I think one of the students said, or any effects at all. So I am pleased.


Slightly embarrassed admission - I am finding myself a little paranoid, watching for any signs of anything. Those pills may have turned me into a hypochondriac. :o

[athon]

Just a word of advice; always be extra careful of such demonstrations. I know the point, however there is a concern that kids might not fully 'get' the demonstration and try this for themselves on some other medication that is stated to be homeopathic. Not all such products are actually homeopathic, and some have active ingredients in them.

Be careful to explain this to them.

Athon

[Physiotherapist]

Hi,

Did you take 32 pillules all in one go?

If so, then homeopaths believe that it would not do you any harm at all - taking them all at once constitutes just one dose of the remedy and according to homeopathic philosophy, then you can take as many pillules as you want at once to constiute a dose.

According to them you would get problems if you took 32 pillules at intervals, say 32 over the space of a few hours but spaced out. This would then produce proving symptoms as it constitutes several doses of the remedy rather than just one.

See the difference?

[Soapy Sam]

Apart from the nonexistent active ingredient, these pills are mostly what- sugar and chalk?
And you still managed an extra burrito?
You need to go on the Soapy Solutions Quantum Carbo Weight Loss Diet (tm) NOW! Just call for details.
(Your weight may go up as well as down. No refunds. Conditions apply).

[JoeTheJuggler]

We talked about how Homeopathy is supposed to work, and the basically unknown quantities of materials I was consuming, since the 1X, 2X , and 3X claims do not translate into milligrams or anything useful like that.

Actually, you could translate the quantities into real measure--especially when they're only 1X. 1X is just 10% (by volume, I assume). If you knew the volume of the pillule, you could figure out how much of the various ingredients there are. It's only when you get to the absurd "dilutions" when the quantities become meaningless--where contamination should matter more than the ingredients. (Actually, at or beyond 24X or 12C they become known again--the quantity is zero.)

On another thread (p://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=79468) we discussed Calms Forte and some other homeo sleeping pills. It seems that a lot of these blur and confuse the distinction between herbals and homeopathics.

[blutoski]

The operator transferred us to some kind of specialist who was surprised that anyone would consume so much. But, thankfully, she assured us that the Homeopathic medicines were made with very large margins of safety so even with 32 pills I shouldn't suffer any harmful effects. Whew. I really dodged a bullet.

I think that before engaging in these types of demonstrations, it's important to determine what a 'harmful' dose would actually be.

If homeopaths claim - and they do - that these treatments are harmless, such a demonstration merely proves their assertion.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I think that before engaging in these types of demonstrations, it's important to determine what a 'harmful' dose would actually be.

If homeopaths claim - and they do - that these treatments are harmless, such a demonstration merely proves their assertion.

Yup--I think you're right.

I think these demos aren't designed to prove anything, but rather to get people who don't know what homeopathy is to think about it.

Gee--if there's no side effect or danger when you take a whole bottle of sleeping pills, maybe there's no effect whatsoever.

The damn things are sold right next to real medicines, and packaged to look similar. Whenever I explain to friends what homeopathy is (law of similars, law of infinitesimals, what those X and C numbers mean), they're invariably shocked and appalled that people are buying them for money.

[tkingdoll]

To the layman, it doesn't matter a whit what homeopaths claim is or isn't a harmful dose, because homeopaths also claim (loudly) that their snake oil is an alternative to real medicine. They are even packaged and labelled the same way. Take two pills an hour before bedtime, etc.

So to Average Joe, a homeopathic sleeping pill is equal to an non-homeopathic sleeping pill, therefore an overdose should have the same effect. When Joe witnesses no effect, he realises there's nothing there.

The psychology of the stunt is great, and most people will never get as far as researching what homeopaths claim about overdoses. They'll just walk away knowing it's hokum.

[Jeff Corey]

To overdose on any homeopathological dose, you would have to take an extremely diluted version of the original.

ETA, just saw Randi's joke.

[Cuddles]

I am currently drinking mass quantities of homeopathic water. So far, no problem.

I tried that, but I got thirsty.