They get any lower?

[Undesired Walrus]

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8263

[P.S. i have not tried to contact this person because i don't have the ability to record the conversation. Whoever does try to phone the number, make sure that the conversation is recorded. This could also be a good case to try to use a bit of deception to attempt to get some information from this guy, or his gay partner. maybe pretend to be an old friend from highschool who's in town to say hi, or someone looking for his parents... or something creative to that affect to see if this guy is really the guy who was supposed to die on AA 77. actually... here's a good one... his gay partner Tom Hay would likely answer the phone... when he does, say in a confident voice "put david on the phone" ... his partner will likely be trained to say "he's dead, died on 9/11, etc." then you say "put him on the phone"... if his parter still maintains he's dead ... basically pretend to be some CIA guy, who knows that some 9/11 truthers are trying to find him. even say "we need to move him right away, there is a group of people trying to discover he's still alive, we don't have time to operate though our regular channels". alternatively... it may even be better for someone in DC to go to his house with a camera/video camera... and do a stakeout outside his house. whatever we do, we should do it by tomorrow incase we are in fact correct, and this tread/my e-mail are flagged and this guy is warned.]


:sour:

[stateofgrace]

Posted by Lyte


Disgusting.

This is utter crap.

For once I argee with you Lyte.

[NickUK]

Oh my god.

[John Blonn]

This is an example for those who might consider the twoofers to be merely harmless kooks. When their fantasy begins to spill over to reality, they can do some real damage. Here's hoping no one calls.

ETA: Oh and yes, good for Lyte to stand up to that.

[Undesired Walrus]

Posted by Lyte


For once I argee with you Lyte.

To play devils advocate, however commendable Lyte's phrase is here, to utter this phrase and not assume he is not somewhat doing exactly with numerous people who are traumitised beyond anything we can ever imagine, is a tad hypocritical on his part.

That said, if there was a scale of insensitivity, Lyte would be a choir boy in comparison.

[Redtail]

It should be illegal for people that stupid to breed. If these idiots actually did this they would take the partner's breaking down into tears or hanging up as proof that they are right.

[jackchit]

That is rather crass, some are mis-guided over there.

[The Doc]

I applaud Lyte and Jackchit for condemning this. This is just horrible.

Imagine losing a loved one and then getting this guy call you up and say such things.

I don't feel so good.

[gumboot]

That's truly sickening...

I hope they maintain their normal cowardice... and fail to follow through on their words.

-Gumboot

[uk_dave]

meh, they're 'truthers', what do you expect?

Every speculation they make concerning 9/11 pisses on the graves of those that died. This is just a more explicit manifestation.

[~enigma~]

I applaud Lyte and Jackchit for condemning this. This is just horrible.

Imagine losing a loved one and then getting this guy call you up and say such things.

I don't feel so good.
Someone...the original poster @ LCF has a very active and stupid imagination. I hope that along with the banning of the NPT (and jackchit via IP) this crap will be banished also.

[Undesired Walrus]

So..when I went on LCF, and shouted down Dylan for calling Bernard Brown Snr a murderer, I get banned.

When someone on there wants to phone up a 9/11 family member and try and act like their partner is still alive.... that person does not get banned..

Uh huh

[~enigma~]

So..when I went on LCF, and shouted down Dylan for calling Bernard Brown Snr a murderer, I get banned.

When someone on there wants to phone up a 9/11 family member and try and act like their partner is still alive.... that person does not get banned..

Uh huh
Right...and you expect sense? Why? Is there a reason you would expect not to get banned after "shouting down" their admin even if you are perfectly right?

[Alt+F4]

And they start with that crap about the Social Security Death Index! They are such morons they don't realize that a death won't appear on that list if the person in question wasn't receiving Social Security benefits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[~enigma~]

And they start with that crap about the Social Security Death Index! They are such morons they don't realize that a death won't appear on that list if the person in question wasn't receiving Social Security benefits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shhh...don't ruin the suprise. But to be fair, one of the guys at LCF is trying to explain that but it seems the common idiot woo isn't interested in listening.

[Undesired Walrus]

Actually, I regret the title I gave this thread. On LCF people consistently bung us up as "them JREF". While truthers have a history of being insensitive, I presume I shouldn't make it all into a "they".

[Brainache]

Right...and you expect sense? Why? Is there a reason you would expect not to get banned after "shouting down" their admin even if you are perfectly right?
I know this post wasn't adressed to me, but I never insulted anyone at LC. I never shouted down anyone admin or otherwise and yet I was banned without warning. One day happily posting about Jesus Camp and Chemtrails, next day "you do not have permission to view this board".

So why does a person like the one quoted in the OP deserve to keep posting while poor old Beachrain gets banned? <sob sob boo hoo>

[~enigma~]

I know this post wasn't adressed to me, but I never insulted anyone at LC. I never shouted down anyone admin or otherwise and yet I was banned without warning. One day happily posting about Jesus Camp and Chemtrails, next day "you do not have permission to view this board".

So why does a person like the one quoted in the OP deserve to keep posting while poor old Beachrain gets banned? <sob sob boo hoo>
Question...did I say he deserves anything (besides a good 5 minutes locked in a room with Bernard Brown Sr)? I said quite specifically in regards to Undesired Walrus why would he expect not to get banned running in to a forum and "shouting down" the admin. That has nothing to do with right or wrong.

[The Silver Shadow]

a board full of homophobes, racists and haters all round. I can't believe they would try to sink this low

[~enigma~]

a board full of homophobes, racists and haters all round. I can't believe they would try to sink this low
Reread your post and tell me why exactlyyou find this surprising? All they have to do now is say Charlbois is Jewish and they got all the bases covered :)

[Travis]

After my brother was shot and killed I got someone on the phone who wouldn't believe me that he was dead and kept insisting I give him my brothers phone number. That was pretty hard to take as it left me equally angry and sad. It would be horrible if this is the one time these fellows back up their web forum bravado and actually act on their boasts.:(

[~enigma~]

After my brother was shot and killed I got someone on the phone who wouldn't believe me that he was dead and kept insisting I give him my brothers phone number. That was pretty hard to take as it left me equally angry and sad. It would be horrible if this is the one time these fellows back up their web forum bravado and actually act on their boasts.:(
You think that call was from the OP there. He does appear stupid enough...
I really don't understand...aren't these the same guys that want to be taken seriously? With idiot crap like this that will be an extremely long time (never but in a PC type of way).

[T.A.M.]

After my brother was shot and killed I got someone on the phone who wouldn't believe me that he was dead and kept insisting I give him my brothers phone number. That was pretty hard to take as it left me equally angry and sad. It would be horrible if this is the one time these fellows back up their web forum bravado and actually act on their boasts.:(

Those who post and suggest such a thing, have not the moral compunction to even consider the feelings of the person they are assaulting (which believe it or not, a phone call as this guy suggests is...it is verbal and emotional abuse).

TAM:(

[~enigma~]

Those who post and suggest such a thing, have not the moral compunction to even consider the feelings of the person they are assaulting (which believe it or not, a phone call as this guy suggests is...it is verbal and emotional abuse).

TAM:(
Yes but sad as it may be for Mr. Hay i really hope these morons call him and then do a video stake out of his house. Then they WILL know what happens when an idiot white guy with an IQ somewhere around 50 gets put in a cell with a really big guy named Bubba that hasn't seen a woman for a few years.

[T.A.M.]

Yes but sad as it may be for Mr. Hay i really hope these morons call him and then do a video stake out of his house. Then they WILL know what happens when an idiot white guy with an IQ somewhere around 50 gets put in a cell with a really big guy named Bubba that hasn't seen a woman for a few years.

While it would be a definitive step towards bring their group of insensitive idiots down, the pain it would cause that man would not be worth it...IMO.

TAM

[T.A.M.]

duplicate...Doh!!!

[~enigma~]

While it would be a definitive step towards bring their group of insensitive idiots down, the pain it would cause that man would not be worth it...IMO.

TAM
No but I personally would pay to see the face on Bubba's girlfriend...i mean the poor innocent truth movement martyr :D

[Travis]

This does bring up something. Would anyone like to speculate on a correlation between sociopathic behavior and the actions of a lot of these "Truthers." Because to my layman's eyes it sure seems like there are a lot of similarities.

[T.A.M.]

This does bring up something. Would anyone like to speculate on a correlation between sociopathic behavior and the actions of a lot of these "Truthers." Because to my layman's eyes it sure seems like there are a lot of similarities.

I think the difference lies in their intent, and their lack of connection to reality.

Most of these truthers bark with no bite. It is easy enough for most of them to say..."oh ya lets call this guy or stake out his house" from the comfort of their arm chairs, but they are mostly too cowardly to do so. I also think that most of them have enough humanity in them to realize, as Lyte and others did, that the OP type scenario is pushing it way over the line.

A true sociopath or psychopath lacks that line...there is no line for them, as they do not care about any such line.

TAM:)

[kookbreaker]

Is Txguy a truther or other?

[~enigma~]

Is Txguy a truther or other?
Ask him...

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Is Txguy a truther or other?
Txguy is ~enigma~...

[~enigma~]

Txguy is ~enigma~...
You had to spoil it right :D

Did I say something to make kookbreaker think I was a truther? What?

[yodaluver28]

Sadly, I can't say this surprises me. A girl who grew up down the street from me was a passenger on Flight 77 and her parents still live down the street from my parents and back when they had a memorial stone with her name and death date/circumstances written on it in their garden, they actually got letters from all kinds of kooks demanding to know if she was still alive in hiding somewhere or if they thought she'd been taken to some secret base by the military and murdered there.

[T.A.M.]

Sadly, I can't say this surprises me. A girl who grew up down the street from me was a passenger on Flight 77 and her parents still live down the street from my parents and back when they had a memorial stone with her name and death date/circumstances written on it in their garden, they actually got letters from all kinds of kooks demanding to know if she was still alive in hiding somewhere or if they thought she'd been taken to some secret base by the military and murdered there.

That is very sad, and maddening at the same time. Some times, for the sake of my heart and soul, I am glad I am here behind my computer, and not face to face with these a**holes.

TAM:( :mad:

[~enigma~]

Sadly, I can't say this surprises me. A girl who grew up down the street from me was a passenger on Flight 77 and her parents still live down the street from my parents and back when they had a memorial stone with her name and death date/circumstances written on it in their garden, they actually got letters from all kinds of kooks demanding to know if she was still alive in hiding somewhere or if they thought she'd been taken to some secret base by the military and murdered there.Wow...these people really have no morals. But luckily we knew that...

[kookbreaker]

You had to spoil it right :D

Did I say something to make kookbreaker think I was a truther? What?

No. I just could not remember who was who. I don't exactly keep a scorecard here ya know. I was wondering of one of the troothers actually got a concious about these little antics.

[Civilized Worm]

Just when you think they can't possibly sink any lower...

[jackchit]

Just as j-ref members should not be tarred with the same brush as the extreme ones not all truthers agree with these actions.
I find it deeply disturbing that family members/partners of 911 victims should be harrassed when maybe they are begining to come to terms with their loss.
This is irresponsible and over the line.

[~enigma~]

No. I just could not remember who was who. I don't exactly keep a scorecard here ya know. I was wondering of one of the troothers actually got a concious about these little antics.
In this case it was me but much to my surprise, Lyte Trip has a small conscience, water_bender has a conscience and over here jackchit is showing a conscience. Maybe there is some hope yet. Then again, I think some people are avoiding that thread because it is both disgusting and flat out stupid.

[CptColumbo]

Besides the utter lack of taste the idea of calling the person's partner would be, there is also the matter of believing the call would work. The person quoted in the opening posts believes that some of the passengers on the planes are still alive. This would mean a highly technical undertaking involving logistics, yet the people who pulled it off would let him move back in with his partner. Without changing his partner's name or making his phone number unlisted. This seems like a very stupid mistake for a group that, apparently, pulled off the crime of the century.

The lack of even basic logic is sad. Not to mention the poor taste.

[parky76]

I believe this will only get worse. After Loose Change: Final Cut comes out, there will be more 9-11 deniars. There will be no revolution...and some truthers are going to feel compelled to take matters into their own hands. I don't wish it...but I predict within the next year or so 9-11 deniars will cross the line from internet stupidity to real world harrassment and even violence.

[~enigma~]

I believe this will only get worse. After Loose Change: Final Cut comes out, there will be more 9-11 deniars. There will be no revolution...and some truthers are going to feel compelled to take matters into their own hands. I don't wish it...but I predict within the next year or so 9-11 deniars will cross the line from internet stupidity to real world harrassment and even violence.
I predict it will go the way of the JWs after the world didn't end in 1975. There will remain a few hardcore woos but that number will most likely diminish at an exponential rate after January 2009.

[parky76]

I wish I could agree but I really think we are facing a new and growing phenomenon. The youth of America are cynical as hell, and are extremally keen to believing conspiracy theories about their leaders and government. The more scandals that come out of the administration..the more conspiracy theorists there will be.

[~enigma~]

I wish I could agree but I really think we are facing a new and growing phenomenon. The youth of America are cynical as hell, and are extremally keen to believing conspiracy theories about their leaders and government. The more scandals that come out of the administration..the more conspiracy theorists there will be.
Oh ye of little faith...

Did I really say such a corny line???

[The Silver Shadow]

but parky, you should remember that there is only a minority that will actually cling to these beliefs after the hoopla's gone. When I was in high school, it was almost cool to believe that 9/11 was an inside job. I followed it, a bunch of others followed it (and they were the equivalent of jocks), but the end result is, we all grew up. We all left high school, into the bigger world, outside of the shelter of school. I admit, I was probably one of the last to toss the belief aside because of how illogical it is, but the others went on...

[OMGturt1es]

This does bring up something. Would anyone like to speculate on a correlation between sociopathic behavior and the actions of a lot of these "Truthers." Because to my layman's eyes it sure seems like there are a lot of similarities.

Wow...these people really have no morals. But luckily we knew that...

guys, these people have morals. that's why they are acting out. that's the problem.

if you HONESTLY believed that the government murdered 3,000 innocent people, WHAT WOULD YOU BE MORALLY OBLIGATED TO DO?

that's why i think it's important to counter this stuff. this CT is different from past ones. the government is murdering civilians. and lots of them.

this detracts thought from very real, complex issues, and it makes our own government the number one suspect if we are ever attacked again. hell, we could be invaded by a surge of foreign tanks, and many people would be immediately screaming "false flag!".

these 911 CTs are damaging. it's not that the believers are bad people-- i'm sure some are, just as some rational folk are-- it's that their world view is one in which the united states government is conspiring to destroy the world as we know it and to steal our freedoms, and the lives of innocent civilians are actually at stake. this is why 911 CTs are different from all others...

I believe this will only get worse. After Loose Change: Final Cut comes out, there will be more 9-11 deniars. There will be no revolution...and some truthers are going to feel compelled to take matters into their own hands. I don't wish it...but I predict within the next year or so 9-11 deniars will cross the line from internet stupidity to real world harrassment and even violence.

I wish I could agree but I really think we are facing a new and growing phenomenon. The youth of America are cynical as hell, and are extremally keen to believing conspiracy theories about their leaders and government. The more scandals that come out of the administration..the more conspiracy theorists there will be.

these are my fears exactly. i especially fear that as time removes us from the emotional reactions that we all have from 911, more folk will be exploited by these bastards. more folk will be lied to. more folk will buy into this crap.

in a country in which a significant portion of civilians actually believes its own government attacked its own civilians, what future can we expect? how can we expect to deal with real issues if a good portion of citizens are fighting a fairy tale?

while passing out my literature at a showing of "improbable collpase" yesterday at my university, i ran into an old friend that i'd not seen for quite some time. he's part of the core 911 truth group for my home town. he's bought it all, hook, line and sinker.

and there were a number of students attending the showing that had not been exposed to these theories. when steven jones mocked NIST for their alleged short coming, these college students laughed along with him.

people are being told that experts don't believe the official story. they are being told that scientists are saying CD was necessary for the collapses. they are being lied to about what NIST says, and how NIST came to its conclusions. and it all fits with their cynical world views.

i think it will only get worse. i hope i'm just being dramatic, but i honestly think this stuff will only pick up steam with time, and i honestly think that it can have serious implications on our future, because everyone that believes this crap is living in a completely different world.

[parky76]

Well, I only hope that as more people buy into this garbage, the governmant will do a better job at dispelling the myths.

[~enigma~]

guys, these people have morals. that's why they are acting out. that's the problem.

if you HONESTLY believed that the government murdered 3,000 innocent people, WHAT WOULD YOU BE MORALLY OBLIGATED TO DO?

that's why i think it's important to counter this stuff. this CT is different from past ones. the government is murdering civilians. and lots of them.

this detracts thought from very real, complex issues, and it makes our own government the number one suspect if we are ever attacked again. hell, we could be invaded by a surge of foreign tanks, and many people would be immediately screaming "false flag!".

these 911 CTs are damaging. it's not that the believers are bad people-- i'm sure some are, just as some rational folk are-- it's that their world view is one in which the united states government is conspiring to destroy the world as we know it and to steal our freedoms, and the lives of innocent civilians are actually at stake. this is why 911 CTs are different from all others...





these are my fears exactly. i especially fear that as time removes us from the emotional reactions that we all have from 911, more folk will be exploited by these bastards. more folk will be lied to. more folk will buy into this crap.

in a country in which a significant portion of civilians actually believes its own government attacked its own civilians, what future can we expect? how can we expect to deal with real issues if a good portion of citizens are fighting a fairy tale?

while passing out my literature at a showing of "improbable collpase" yesterday at my university, i ran into an old friend that i'd not seen for quite some time. he's part of the core 911 truth group for my home town. he's bought it all, hook, line and sinker.

and there were a number of students attending the showing that had not been exposed to these theories. when steven jones mocked NIST for their alleged short coming, these college students laughed along with him.

people are being told that experts don't believe the official story. they are being told that scientists are saying CD was necessary for the collapses. they are being lied to about what NIST says, and how NIST came to its conclusions. and it all fits with their cynical world views.

i think it will only get worse. i hope i'm just being dramatic, but i honestly think this stuff will only pick up steam with time, and i honestly think that it can have serious implications on our future, because everyone that believes this crap is living in a completely different world.
After the president changes in January 2009, who are they going to focus on? If we have ANYBODY besides Rudy, what is the truth movement going to protest? Are they going to complain about Hillary's love life? No Bush means no "average" truthers only hardcore idiots like uncle Fester and Judy Wood (and Nico Haupt) and they will easily be ignored or if they provoke violence worse.

[parky76]

Don't forget. We had morons protesting against the NWO, CFR, Bilderberg Group long before Bush was elected.

[~enigma~]

Don't forget. We had morons protesting against the NWO, CFR, Bilderberg Group long before Bush was elected.
Yeah and those are not 9/11 woo but they are NWO, Bilderburg and CFR woo :)

[OMGturt1es]

Well, I only hope that as more people buy into this garbage, the governmant will do a better job at dispelling the myths.

too many people don't trust the government. people need to learn to trust scientists. they need to understand that government funding doens't dictate science.

After the president changes in January 2009, who are they going to focus on? If we have ANYBODY besides Rudy, what is the truth movement going to protest? Are they going to complain about Hillary's love life? No Bush means no "average" truthers only hardcore idiots like uncle Fester and Judy Wood (and Nico Haupt) and they will easily be ignored or if they provoke violence worse.

i hope that you have a point, but i don't think it matters; many people believe that republicans and democrats are more similar than not, and those that believe in the NWO are clearly convinced that all top politicians are part of the same conspiracy.

the problem is, even with a new presidency, "bush haters" still are likely to believe that bush could have pulled off the attacks-- even if not the current government. once they are indoctrinated, however, they will understand that republicans and democrats are the same, and that all administrations are puppets of the NWO. i fear a change in presidency isn't going to make a great deal of difference.

and even if the new administration doesn't give them anything to complain about, it's just a matter of time... we will be attacked by terrorists again, eventually. and when we are, we will look at the books, and look at security.

and what if NK or iran requires some sort of intervention? what if there is some serious, real threat that requires force? it's only a matter of time...

[OMGturt1es]

Don't forget. We had morons protesting against the NWO, CFR, Bilderberg Group long before Bush was elected.

sure, but now the NWO is willing and able to kill 3,000 innocent civilians at one time.

i may be being dramatic. i think i have a tendency to get myself worked up, to be honest. but i still think it's an important difference, and that these views could actually end up hurting our country.

[~enigma~]

i fear a change in presidency isn't going to make a great deal of difference.The myspace woo and lCF both say something better happen before January 2009 or the are done as a movement. I believe them. Right now they have Bush and his administration to focus on. As a matter of fact a lot of the woo hope Bush will declare martial law so he can stay in office. No Bush...no focus. Let the few hardcore like Fester, Wood and Haupt keep fantasizing because with no Bush their fantasy peters out into thin air.

[OMGturt1es]

The myspace woo and lCF both say something better happen before January 2009 or the are done as a movement. I believe them. Right now they have Bush and his administration to focus on. As a matter of fact a lot of the woo hope Bush will declare martial law so he can stay in office. No Bush...no focus. Let the few hardcore like Fester, Wood and Haupt keep fantasizing because with no Bush their fantasy peters out into thin air.

like i said, i hope you're right.

it seems that most CTs just sit and fester, and pick up steam as time goes on. as we move away from the event, emotions are removed, and more people fall for the CTs, likely because CTs are actively trying to get members, while the official stories aren't.

other CTs just weren't that big of a deal. a president was killed? oh well. don't run for president, and you probably will be ok. moon landings faked? pfffth. no biggies. holocaust faked/used to get sympathy for jews? don't give em sympathy. easy.

but the government killing 3,000 innocent civilians and actively trying to steal rights? that's serious.

but yeah, i hope you're right. i just can't imagine this movement dying down if its members actually believe their own crap, and if people, in general, don't learn how to hold evidence to scrutiny.

[~enigma~]

but yeah, i hope you're right. i just can't imagine this movement dying down if its members actually believe their own crap, and if people, in general, don't learn how to hold evidence to scrutiny.Run around or shall I say listen to truthers (not just one group) when they talk and it is amazing what things you learn. Everything from their doubts down to their sometimes odd thought process gets revealed.

[chillzero]

I have moved a bunch of posts to Flame War, where that discussion can be continued if required.

[gumboot]

For anyone who thinks this entire thing will simply vanish when Bush is out of office, I humbly suggest you have short memories...

There was a fairly vocal element of society that accused the US Government of essentially fabricating both Gulf War I and the Bosnian War.

In fact, the CT that the Clinton Administration created the Bosnian War was popular enough that Hollywood even made a major feature film about it - Wag The Dog.

Sadly, I suspect people like Parky76 might be right. 9/11 may simply be the latest in a long line of world events that a significant chunk of the primarily youth population is suspicious of. They don't tend to outright accuse, but on more than one occasion, when I have pointed out that the Gulf War began when Iraq invaded Kuwait, the response I have received is along the lines of "Oh, and how convenient...".

This is something of a generational feature, perhaps. My generation's parents were involved in some of the most significant social upheavals in recent history, especially in regards to a rejection of authority. This was, as much as anything, a rejection of the values of sacrifice, duty, and authority of their parents - the generation that fought World War Two.

Many in my generation have been raised in a family environment that utterly rejects authority, and embraces individual freedom above all else.

This is also the first generation to be born into the information age, with the entire world literally at their fingertips. Are you at all surprised that they reject authority and embrace conspiracy theories?

I'm not.

And frankly, I expect it to get much worse before it gets better.

-Gumboot

[Undesired Walrus]

I wish I could agree but I really think we are facing a new and growing phenomenon. The youth of America are cynical as hell, and are extremally keen to believing conspiracy theories about their leaders and government.

I dont think it is anything to do with cynicism guy, if anything, it is about blind optimism. As I understand it, a lot of American youth have a rather romantic view of the United States as a massive global superpower, justified in the famous "Are you saying 19 cavemen outsmarted the most powerful military in the world?". To accept the rather sad reality of America not being that great, is somewhat terrifying for them. The further you get away from an event like this you forget how random it was, so attatching some NWO plotline and a happy ending (In which the NWO are found out) is reassuring to them.

[T.A.M.]

guys, these people have morals. that's why they are acting out. that's the problem.

if you HONESTLY believed that the government murdered 3,000 innocent people, WHAT WOULD YOU BE MORALLY OBLIGATED TO DO?

that's why i think it's important to counter this stuff. this CT is different from past ones. the government is murdering civilians. and lots of them.

this detracts thought from very real, complex issues, and it makes our own government the number one suspect if we are ever attacked again. hell, we could be invaded by a surge of foreign tanks, and many people would be immediately screaming "false flag!".

these 911 CTs are damaging. it's not that the believers are bad people-- i'm sure some are, just as some rational folk are-- it's that their world view is one in which the united states government is conspiring to destroy the world as we know it and to steal our freedoms, and the lives of innocent civilians are actually at stake. this is why 911 CTs are different from all others...


these are my fears exactly. i especially fear that as time removes us from the emotional reactions that we all have from 911, more folk will be exploited by these bastards. more folk will be lied to. more folk will buy into this crap.

in a country in which a significant portion of civilians actually believes its own government attacked its own civilians, what future can we expect? how can we expect to deal with real issues if a good portion of citizens are fighting a fairy tale?

while passing out my literature at a showing of "improbable collpase" yesterday at my university, i ran into an old friend that i'd not seen for quite some time. he's part of the core 911 truth group for my home town. he's bought it all, hook, line and sinker.

and there were a number of students attending the showing that had not been exposed to these theories. when steven jones mocked NIST for their alleged short coming, these college students laughed along with him.

people are being told that experts don't believe the official story. they are being told that scientists are saying CD was necessary for the collapses. they are being lied to about what NIST says, and how NIST came to its conclusions. and it all fits with their cynical world views.

i think it will only get worse. i hope i'm just being dramatic, but i honestly think this stuff will only pick up steam with time, and i honestly think that it can have serious implications on our future, because everyone that believes this crap is living in a completely different world.

Well said, and expresses some very real concerns. Allow me to respond.

1. Moral of the CTers: Yes they do have morals, but their response to that which has triggered their moral outrage is skewed by sense of self-importance in this matter. Every one of them figures themselves to be a Tom Clancy Protagonist. Rather than collect themselves in a united front, a united stand, behind some knowledgable AND charismatic leaders, they each yearn for the spotlight, they each want their peace of the 9/11 pie, so they all go their own way, do their own research, then beg for support from the others, regardless of how silly their latest "theory" is. Case in point, Lyte and Merc.

2. 9/11 as a distraction: You are absolutely right. As Manbiot and others have pointed out, beyond the rediculousness of the 9/11 CTs, is their distraction factor. Even worse, is the effect they have on the credibility of legitimate Left Wing goals, simply through guilt by association. Now granted, 9/11 CTs are not solely found in the left wing. Actually, there is a substantial contingent of far right wingers even more crazy in their zeal wrt 9/11 truth. If, however, you were to poll the truth movement, you would no doubt find a majority falling into the liberal camp (I am a liberal by the way). Even without such poll results, the left lean of the truth movement is certainly percieved as so, in part because it is an anti-govt movement, and right now the govt is right wing. In the end, it is for these reasons, among the other obvious ones, that liberals in america should be countering the 9/11 truth movement even more feverishly than the right.

3. CTer world view. No doubt, the gasoline fueling the 9/11 truth movement is a world view that has america, more specifically the USG, as oil hungry, power hungry, modern Roman Empire. I cannot argue this, as to a degree, I see the same thing. I think most of the world sees the USA in this light. The difference, is that I do not allow this to shade my every opinion on anything and everything USA related. I am able to see the random, the unfortunate, the unrelated, where as the average CTer sees all things bad in the world, all misfortune, related the American World Conquest.

4. A Voice of Reason in a Sea of 9/11 Truth Deceit: Absolutely. It is the sole reason I do this. I had a friend who fell, and is still falling, hook line sinker, for this stuff. In my opinion, he is in so deep, he is lost to it. It scared me that someone I felt was so rational, fell for it, and is now a part of it, and its proliferation. I also had my own sister come to me about it, doubting the official story after watching LC. Luckily with my acquired knowledge, I was easily able to sway her and her fiance back to reality. What was scary was how easily they were swayed, and how prior to my own reading on the subject, how illiterate and hence unable, I would have been to get her back...This is my impitus.

5. The future of the movement: I am less pesimistic. I think the removal of the REPs from office in 2008 will leave the 9/11 truth movement in a shambles of super right wing freaks and super left wing hippies, combined with some "rage against the machine" teenagers. I think if by some chance the REPs remain in power, your prediction will likely come true.

TAM:)

[neon]

Ugh. Awful!

[fuelair]

It should be illegal for people that stupid to breed. If these idiots actually did this they would take the partner's breaking down into tears or hanging up as proof that they are right.
I was actually more interested in the recording part. IIRC it is illegal to record a call without knowledge and permission from it's recipient - or court authorization (available only to authorized law enforcement (also IIRC) I think that could make the life of someone doing that and using it anywhere really entertaining (in the go to jail, "Bend over punk!!" meaning of entertaining) particularly when they can also be charged with impersonating a federal officer.:D :D :D

[T.A.M.]

Ugh. Awful!

lol...with 2 pages of posts, you'll have to be a bit more specific, although I assume you are referring to the OP.

TAM:)

[The Silver Shadow]

1. Moral of the CTers: Yes they do have morals, but their response to that which has triggered their moral outrage is skewed by sense of self-importance in this matter. Every one of them figures themselves to be a Tom Clancy Protagonist. Rather than collect themselves in a united front, a united stand, behind some knowledgable AND charismatic leaders, they each yearn for the spotlight, they each want their peace of the 9/11 pie, so they all go their own way, do their own research, then beg for support from the others, regardless of how silly their latest "theory" is. Case in point, Lyte and Merc.
You might want to add that in their quest to get fame and leadership within this group, they never back down that maybe their theory is wrong, and they never concede to their error. Case in point: Killtown

PS: What happened to Killtown?

[parky76]

Maybe Killtown came to his senses, grew up, and got a job.

[T.A.M.]

Maybe Killtown came to his senses, grew up, and got a job.

highly unlikely. More likely is that his BS accusing Val McClatchey (?spelling) of faking her shanksville photo has landed him in court (one can only hope).

TAM:)

[Civilized Worm]

if you HONESTLY believed that the government murdered 3,000 innocent people, WHAT WOULD YOU BE MORALLY OBLIGATED TO DO?


Look for evidence, contact eyewitnesses, firefighters, fire experts, engineers, demolition experts and metallurgists. Then once I had some experts on my side I'd push them to publish some papers to be properly peer reviewed and take my evidence to all the authorities and media outlets I could find.

[gumboot]

I was actually more interested in the recording part. IIRC it is illegal to record a call without knowledge and permission from it's recipient - or court authorization (available only to authorized law enforcement (also IIRC)



It depends on the State. In some states/countries it is legal if the person doing the recording is one of the people involved in the conversation.

-Gumboot

[Earl The Tall]

After the president changes in January 2009, who are they going to focus on? If we have ANYBODY besides Rudy, what is the truth movement going to protest? Are they going to complain about Hillary's love life? No Bush means no "average" truthers only hardcore idiots like uncle Fester and Judy Wood (and Nico Haupt) and they will easily be ignored or if they provoke violence worse.

Even when President Bush leave office I honesty don't think they will stop with this non-sense. It's not like all the JFK stuff magically stopped when LBJ was out of office.

Side question, something I could never figure out, when a 'truther' says the US Government pulled off 9/11. Are they saying the Government as a whole as in Replicas and Democrats? Or do they just like focusing on a few people at a time.

[gumboot]

Side question, something I could never figure out, when a 'truther' says the US Government pulled off 9/11. Are they saying the Government as a whole as in Replicas and Democrats?


What's wrong with our Replicas? Our Reptillian Overlords assure us they are the best shape-shifters in six galaxies.

-Gumboot

[Earl The Tall]

What's wrong with our Replicas? Our Reptillian Overlords assure us they are the best shape-shifters in six galaxies.

-Gumboot

Oh man, my NWO boss are really going to punish me for that slip up, there goes my Vegas vaction.

[gumboot]

To answer your question seriously, however... they seem a bit split over this... some argue the NWO route which indicates all government members, as well as those in employ of the government, are members of the ebil world order.

Others (more of the anti-Bush element) see it more as the fault of the evil administration specifically.

And here's the thing I really don't get... the biggest Bush-haters seem to argue that Bush is just a stupid puppet, and that the evil masterminds are Cheney and others. What I don't get is this would make Bush a victim as such, surely they should be marching with banners declaring "SAVE BUSH". I mean, these evil men are hold THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES hostage! Should they be kinda... I dunno... pissed off?

-Gumboot

[Foolmewunz]

Oh man, my NWO boss are really going to punish me for that slip up, there goes my Vegas vaction.

Vegas? You get Vegas? I gotta renegotiate. All I got was a Thursday/Friday in the height of the mosquito season in Shreeveport!

[Earl The Tall]

Vegas? You get Vegas? I gotta renegotiate. All I got was a Thursday/Friday in the height of the mosquito season in Shreeveport!

Well you see I took the open spot here at UTSA since they didn't have enough shills down here. They also help me pay for college.








Oh crap I did it again.....

[Bobert]

I am reporting you both due to this clear violation of 230-2fa subsection C.
You know the routine.

[Foolmewunz]

I am reporting you both due to this clear violation of 230-2fa subsection C.
You know the routine.

Huh? Hey, WTF? I didn't write all that stuff! Someone's hacked my account!!!

Oh, (alternate woo mode) My little brother took my password. Yeah, that's it, it was my little brother. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[qarnos]

Well, I only hope that as more people buy into this garbage, the governmant will do a better job at dispelling the myths.

If the government denies it, it means they did it (in CT land anyway).

This is the same reason NASA don't bother wasting time with the Moon Hoaxers.

[MRC_Hans]

Just as j-ref members should not be tarred with the same brush as the extreme ones not all truthers agree with these actions.
I find it deeply disturbing that family members/partners of 911 victims should be harrassed when maybe they are begining to come to terms with their loss.
This is irresponsible and over the line.
Quite. But don't you find it a bit interesting that such posts are tolerated at that forum while polite skeptics are banned? How exactly does that paint the movement as such? How can the more reasonable "truthers" like yourself expect to be taken seriously, when the movement does not distance itself from the freaks?

Hans