Magnetic Bracelets again.

[Soapy Sam]

Last week, I was in a very well known UK high Street pharmacy & chemist. Among the "Health" items, I noticed some "Magnetic Copper" bracelets.

The packaging decribed it as an item of jewellery, but went on to say "It is believed", followed by various claims about rheumatism etc.

I took one to the store pharmacist and asked if she believed the claims. She was immediately defensive and refused to directly answer the question, save to say that so many people believed it, there had to be some beneficial effect.

I sympathise with her position; she is not the store buyer and had no idea who I might be-perhaps a rep. for the manufacturer.

Still, this stuff is on the same shelf as basic first aid items, in a shop long accepted by the public as selling genuine medical products. Many people will think that if it was no good, it would not be there. Circular argument.

So the voodoo perpetuates itself.

[jim_scotti]

I've seen these silly things at WalMart too. :rolleyes: I was thinking I should make a small sticker to affix to the packaging to debunk the claims made on the package....

Jim.

[The Bad Astronomer]

Jim Scotti!

Well, dagnappit, now I'm not the most coolest astronomer on this board anymore. :D Jim, have you posted in the "New posters" (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18114) thread yet? Let people know who you are...

[jim_scotti]

Hey Phil! Thanks! I actually joined this forum about 2 years ago, but I have only rarely posted to it at least until recently, though my posting rate these days is not all that high - not much time to read these kinds of boards while trying to save the planet from those mean old asteroids....:D

Jim.

[Goshawk]

Well, at every "foot stuff" display I've ever seen, the one where they have all the Dr. Scholl's foot powder and insoles and stuff, at Wal-Mart, Walgreens, etc., they also always have a good supply of magnetic insoles. People believe in it, they buy them, market forces do the rest.

[Soapy Sam]

Yes. And they are such intensely POWERFUL magnets, that they don't even stick to a fridge door. Next time you are in Walmart, try it.


And may I say I too am happy to have Jim Scotti appear in this thread. Don't worry , Phil, I'm sure a bunch of folk here know his name.

I could hardly have been more surprised to see the ghost of Gene Shoemaker posting here!

[jim_scotti]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Yes. And they are such intensely POWERFUL magnets, that they don't even stick to a fridge door. Next time you are in Walmart, try it.


So what you're saying is that these magnet therapy products wouldn't even be good enough to use to erase all those old floppy disks and tapes we have lying around..... I still say I should make up some debunking stickers to apply to this junk.....

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
And may I say I too am happy to have Jim Scotti appear in this thread. Don't worry , Phil, I'm sure a bunch of folk here know his name.


:jedi: Hey you're making me sound like I'm Yoda or something..... (I always wanted to figure out a way to use that jedi smiley....)

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
I could hardly have been more surprised to see the ghost of Gene Shoemaker posting here!

Being a skeptic, I haven''t seen enough evidence of ghosts to expect to see Gene Shoemakers ghost running around here, but if I had to make a list of ghosts I'd like to visit with, Gene Shoemaker would probably be on that list, if for no other reason than to find out what his current estimate of the flux of cometary vs. asteroidal impactors on Earth is (last time I talked to him about it it had dropped to around 10% as I recall, from a high of about 50% the first time I heard him talk about it....).

Jim.

[Soapy Sam]

Aye. The trouble with mediums is quality control.
They never seem to channel anyone who knows something we didn't know already!

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by jim_scotti
I've seen these silly things at WalMart too. :rolleyes: I was thinking I should make a small sticker to affix to the packaging to debunk the claims made on the package....

Jim. A wonderful idea! Do you have a specific style in mind? (an old issue of the "auto-free times" had instructions and suggestions on making "surgeon-general style" warning labels for SUV's and gas pumps--are you thinking of that sort of thing?)

Warning: use of this product is not recommended by anyone with a brain.

Address label sheets have just about the right size paper for a small, well-formatted message.

[jim_scotti]

Originally posted by Mercutio
A wonderful idea! Do you have a specific style in mind? (an old issue of the "auto-free times" had instructions and suggestions on making "surgeon-general style" warning labels for SUV's and gas pumps--are you thinking of that sort of thing?)

Warning: use of this product is not recommended by anyone with a brain.

Address label sheets have just about the right size paper for a small, well-formatted message.

That's not a bad idea. I hadn't got past the basic idea of afixing a label.... I was thinking of finding the best webpage debunking the magnets to include in such a label along with a sentence or so. I was definitely thinking of a small Avery type label that could be pre-printed and easily and quickly applied.... Of course, I hadn't gotten past that point in my thinking on the subject....

JIm.

[RSLancastr]

Maybe just a small, round sticker with the word "WORKS" inside the red circle-with-a-slash.

[jim_scotti]

Originally posted by RSLancastr
Maybe just a small, round sticker with the word "WORKS" inside the red circle-with-a-slash.

That's a great idea and would be usefull as a general sticker to apply to any hogwash one runs across while shopping!

Jim.

[Mercutio]

I like it, but I also like the idea of a surgeon-general type notice (where appropriate) saying something like This device/product has been shown, through scientific testing, to be completely useless. It is a waste of your money and an insult to your intelligence.

Hmmm...maybe combine the two. The warning would look great alongside a circle-slash...

[BillyJoe]

WARNING: There's probably a law against this.

[BillyJoe]

.....so don't get caught. :D

[Mercutio]

In the Auto-Free Times version of this, they make sure to tell the reader "be sure to ask the permission of the owner before you place the stickers" on SUVs or Gasoline pumps.


Maybe I'll just request that they let me know in writing 2 weeks in advance if they don't want me to make their store more honest.

[Soapy Sam]

Mercutio- I suspect the problem with "Health"aids is the burden of proof. "Caveat emptor" is pretty well taken as read. (I can't prove vitamin supplements are good for me, but they sell by the ton).

By packaging the bracelet as "jewellery" and using words like "It is believed..." neither the store nor the manufacturer is doing anything illegal.

My own inclination is to write to the company concerned, pointing out that their reputation is brought into question by the selling of such fringe items. Appeal to reason and reputation.

I'm abroad now, but I will check their website. They may have a customer feedback address.

I'll let you know what ensues.

Before leaping into something like this, we also need to remember that the person put out of work if the manufacturer closed down is unlikely to be the owner. Much more likely to be some unskilled machine operator working a graveyard shift to keep her kids in sneakers.


EDIT- I checked their site. Very clear, with a Contact Us button right on the home page. So I have e-mailed with the same info as the lead post here. Site promises a reply in 48 hours. I have asked for their comment and will pass it on here.

[DrMatt]

Originally posted by jim_scotti
Hey Phil! Thanks! I actually joined this forum about 2 years ago, but I have only rarely posted to it at least until recently, though my posting rate these days is not all that high - not much time to read these kinds of boards while trying to save the planet from those mean old asteroids....:D

Jim.


Oh oh oh, asteroids! On Usenet I sometimes encounter this curious personality named Dave Tholen, whose messages seem to indicate that he believes everybody else is out to antagonize him. I looked him up and he seems to have something to do with asteroid researcher--does that ring a bell?

[jim_scotti]

Originally posted by DrMatt



Oh oh oh, asteroids! On Usenet I sometimes encounter this curious personality named Dave Tholen, whose messages seem to indicate that he believes everybody else is out to antagonize him. I looked him up and he seems to have something to do with asteroid researcher--does that ring a bell?

Actually, Dave is a friend of mine. While some of his internet behavior baffles me (for example what I've heard of him in music and basketball usenet forums), I can see some of his motivation, particularly in the astronomy forums as attempting to battle pseudoscience. Unfortunately, he seems to alienate posters who are on his side of the argument far too easily and he seems to be just a little too agressive in his persuits....

Dave is actually a very good observer too, focused on getting the highest precision out of his photometry which has earned him the nickname "Dr. Millimag" amongst some of his colleagues.

Jim.

[andycal]

Back to the original subject of the post - I have just sent an email to Boots the Chemist and asked them for evidence of the claims made on their magnetic bracelet things.

I'm also checking out the ASA to see if I can complain about them - it right cheeses me off that high-street stores can perpetuate these sort of myths...

[Soapy Sam]

andycal- It was, as you say, Boots.
I emailed them about ten days ago with no response so far.
I'm at work and have had limited access to e-mail. I'll try again though. See if we get anywhere.

[davefoc]

Only vaguely related story:

Home Depot carried what I thought was a bogus energy saving device.

I did a little research on the web about it, added that to my opinions as an electrical engineer and sent them an email describing my skepticism of the device. I never heard back from them, but Home Depot no longer carries the item. Did I have anything to do with that? I'll never know.

I think the situation is very different when it comes to a pharmacy though. Home depot makes essentially none of its money from bogus devices. Everything in the store does what is claimed for it.

A pharmacy sells lots of stuff for which the efficacy is a matter of controversy. If they get rid of the magnetic bracelets, do they then start taking a hard look at other things for which efficacy is suspect? Maybe, the magnetic bracelets do seem to be unequivocally ineffectual, but so much of what a pharmacy sells doesn't have a whole lot of scientific testing behind it indicating a real benefit, the pharmacy may just not see the distinction between a magnetic bracelet and a dietary supplement which doesn't have any testing indicating benefit either.

How about homeopathic medicines? Do some or most pharmacies refuse to carry these? I wonder.

[andycal]

Boots is a well-known and respected high street retailer and I would imagine a lot of people respect their opinion. In the UK a pharmacist has to go through far more training than a doctor, and it is often that he/she will even question a prescription.

Also, we have extremely well documented peer-review journals that are freely and easily accessible.

I feel that Boots are simply hopping on the 'new-age' bandwaggon purely for profit reasons. I've also seen patches to reduce the craving for chocolate and infra-red massagers - all with dubious claims on the packet.

I've not seen homeopathic stuff in there yet - that's left to some of the other stores.

Anyway, my point is, they shouldn't be stocking them, unless they pop a disclaimer on the front I guess. I've no problem with a company wanting to make a profit - but not at the detriment to people's health whilst playing on their fears.

I haven't heard a reply yet, I'll give them another few days, then it's complaining time...

[Soapy Sam]

andy- I have had no response either. Since the Blaster worm, I have had big problems getting onto Hotmail. (I'm on a drlling rig in Kazakhstan). I'll be home this weekend and I will try contacting them again.

[andycal]

I actually got a reply today!

Thank you for your e-mail addressed to our Customer Service Department. Please quote your Customer Reference number of 1856011 for future correspondence.

We sell magnetic bracelets in our stores, which many people use for relief from rheumatic pain, but I do understand what you say about being sceptical.

All of the information we have is located on our websites, and I would suggest that perhaps you speak with one of our pharmacists in store for more specific advice. It might be worth trying something new to see if it improves your grandmother's condition as different things seem to work for different people.

I do wish you every success in finding the right product to help, and in the meantime, thank you again for contacting us.

So there you go. So much 'sitting on the fence', they must have splinters up their arse.

I reckon the next step is the ASA...

While I'm at it, I've battered Argos for selling a head massager that 'gets in tune with the body's electrical field'. I'm expecting a similar response.

[BillyJoe]

It might be worth trying something new to see if it improves your grandmother's condition as different things seem to work for different people:D:D:D

He obviously does not know the difference between anecdote and a controlled trial.

[asthmatic camel]

Originally posted by andycal
Boots is a well-known and respected high street retailer and I would imagine a lot of people respect their opinion. In the UK a pharmacist has to go through far more training than a doctor, and it is often that he/she will even question a prescription.

I feel that Boots are simply hopping on the 'new-age' bandwaggon purely for profit reasons. I've also seen patches to reduce the craving for chocolate and infra-red massagers - all with dubious claims on the packet.

I've not seen homeopathic stuff in there yet - that's left to some of the other stores.

Anyway, my point is, they shouldn't be stocking them, unless they pop a disclaimer on the front I guess. I've no problem with a company wanting to make a profit - but not at the detriment to people's health whilst playing on their fears.

I haven't heard a reply yet, I'll give them another few days, then it's complaining time...

Boot's certainly used to stock homeopathic remedies. The last time I visited my local store, some eight to ten years ago, a whole shelf was filled with them. Oddly, these miraculous cures weren't behind the pharmacy counter. I wonder why this should be the case.

I now have my photographs developed elsewhere.

Regards,

AC.

[Stevie -G-]

Boots does indeed stock homeopathic products - I have seen them in the Durham, Gateshead (Metro Centre), and Stockton-on-Tees branches, all in the North East of England.

I now buy my sandwiches elsewhere,

Stevie -G-