The Fight Against ECHELON

[Mr Manifesto]

I really don't care that ECHELON (http://archive.aclu.org/echelonwatch/faq.html) can intercept my email and read them to make sure I'm not subversive.

I deliberate start my email messages with stuff like "I'm ready to be married to Allah and will bomb the Sears tower in Chicago at 9:11 to bring down Israel and the Capitalist infidel dogs who shoot the brothers of Mohammad..." well, you get the idea.

If the CIA want to read my boring mail that much, why not let them? Maybe after they've read a few million emails like mine they'll get the idea that intercepting email isn't the best way to track terrorists, and they'll go back to good old-fashioned detective work.

[Agammamon]

That's great! When Operation TIPS was still running I was really tempted to just call in "suspicious" activity every day.

"Hello, Operation TIPS? Yeah, I just saw something suspicious. There's this guy dressed all in blue walking down the street putting stuff in people's mailboxes, can you send someone by to check it out?"

Hello, Operation TIPS? I'd like to report my neighbor. Its December but he has this really dark tan. I think he must have been at one of those terrorist training camps."

[karl]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
I deliberate start my email messages with stuff like "I'm ready to be married to Allah and will bomb the Sears tower in Chicago at 9:11 to bring down Israel and the Capitalist infidel dogs who shoot the brothers of Mohammad..." well, you get the idea.

If the CIA want to read my boring mail that much, why not let them? Maybe after they've read a few million emails like mine they'll get the idea that intercepting email isn't the best way to track terrorists, and they'll go back to good old-fashioned detective work.

... or if the CIA acts like a typical government organization and doesn't give a crap about false positives, they might have configured their software so that anyone who uses "Allah" and "bomb" in more than five consecutive e-mails automatically gets flagged in some anti-terrorist database and is subjected to a body cavity search the next time he tries to board an airplane.

[Andonyx]

It boggles the mind to me how anyone believes that even though sackloads of undelivered or lost mail end up in god knows what forgotten basement every day, that somehow the CIA, or the NSA, or the TGIF are actually productively able to sort in any useful or active way every packet sent through the net every day.

Everything is being downloaded to DLT and then systematically burnt, without ever being looked at in hopes that one day they will have enough computer power to start filtering even one hundredth of one percent of daily packet traffic.

[Charlie Monoxide]

I really don't care that ECHELON can intercept my email and read them to make sure I'm not subversive.
You may not care now. Just wait until they haul your sorry ass into jail without letting anyone know. I'm not sure what criteria they are seeking using ECHELON.

It really is scary and smells very un-Amercan. It's good that the ACLU is doing the "watch-dog" thing, but I question their effectiveness.

It seems like every other day you hear about some whittling down of basic rights. Isn't this the MO of Mr Schicklgruber?

Charlie (rights are hard fought but easily lost) Monoxide

[corplinx]

According to the kooks:
echelon monitors all your intenational communications and reports its findings to the global big brother network

In reality:
On Sept. 11 2001, hijackers who retrieved their orders supposedly by internet and by phone flew hijacked planes into the world trade center, the pentagon, and attempted to fly a fourth into the white house. Intelligence agencies were caught unawares despite advanced realtime data traffic monitoring by a supposed ECHELON system.

Conclusion:
If ECHELON exists, it sucks.

[The Don]

Those crafty foreigners may have even put the messages in some kind of code, the devious persons of dubious parentage

[Mr Manifesto]

If ECHELON exists, it sucks.

Well, here's what fas (http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.htm) says about it.

Of interest,

Peter Goodspeed National Post Saturday, February 19, 2000 -- "This whole thing is so bizarrely powerful that the opportunity or temptation for abuse is fairly substantial," says Mr. Pike of the American Federation of Scientists. "How many people in your organization always obey the rules? "The notion that NSA or any other of these spy networks is the only large organization in human history in which everyone always obeys the rules just flies in the face of common sense," he says.

Mainly, the concern seems to be that ECHELON is being used to benefit American companies by spying on European (particularly, German) companies.

Also, another interesting article:

US FRUSTRATES EU ECHELON INVESTIGATION (http://www.centre-for-egovernment.com/legal_issues.html) (scroll down about halfway down the page, or ctrl+f the title)

US intelligence officials admit to state-sponsored industrial espionage justifying it by saying it is simply a way to uncover foreign corruption which put US companies at an unfair disadvantage. In answer reports published by the EU investigative team this month (see below) say: "It should be pointed out to the Americans that all EU Member States have properly functioning criminal justice systems. If there is evidence that crimes have been committed, the US must leave the task of law enforcement to the host countries."

Uh-huh.

Whatever the medium monitored by the system, the reports conclude the restricted capacity of computer keyword-matching and the limited number of intelligence analysts meant the number of messages that could be scanned by the system would by no means be comprehensive. By way of example the report pointed out that a comparable German signals intelligence system monitors only 10% of messages.

The reports also note that a filtering system would be put under significant extra strain if required to pick up economic key words as well as ones relating to national security.


I suppose this is a relief, but given America's secrecy concerning Echelon, how do we know how 'limited' it's personnel is? I am also reminded of the traffic cop who told me that the photos the red-light cameras take are 'sometimes blurry, you can't always make out the license plate, but we get it 7 times out of 10'. Later, an ex-cop told me "Bullsh!t! Those cameras can tell what brand of condom you have in your back pocket!"

There is, after all, no point to a spy system if people know it exists and what it's capable of, especially if you find you can use it to further your economic power.

[LucyR]

Originally posted by Charlie Monoxide

Isn't this the MO of Mr Schicklgruber?



That's Uncle Adolf to you, Mr. Pretentious.

[American]

Originally posted by Agammamon
That's great! When Operation TIPS was still running I was really tempted to just call in "suspicious" activity every day.

"Hello, Operation TIPS? Yeah, I just saw something suspicious. There's this guy dressed all in blue walking down the street putting stuff in people's mailboxes, can you send someone by to check it out?"

Hello, Operation TIPS? I'd like to report my neighbor. Its December but he has this really dark tan. I think he must have been at one of those terrorist training camps."


Yeah, try it and see what happens.

Intentionally disrupting the system may be a crime in itself, and I would consider this thread your confession were I in such a position to judge.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by American



Yeah, try it and see what happens.

Intentionally disrupting the system may be a crime in itself, and I would consider this thread your confession were I in such a position to judge.


::1950's Newsreel voice::
Take a tip from a fellow (you'll pardon the pun) American! Homeland Security cannot be left solely to the state! It relies on its citizens to do the right think and exert psychological pressure on all to conform! And do not forget- if you suspect someone of thoughtcrime, report them to Big Brother!

Excelsior, and remember, Big Brother is watching you!

[Zep]

American, perhaps you might like to explain how Mr Manifesto and myself (also tempted to prod the ribs of the NSA), might be charged under any US legislation for the crime of reporting "suspicious acts" by telephone?

Have a little think before you answer...

[American]

Originally posted by Zep
American, perhaps you might like to explain how Mr Manifesto and myself (also tempted to prod the ribs of the NSA), might be charged under any US legislation for the crime of reporting "suspicious acts" by telephone.


If the acts you report are not at all suspicious, rather you dislike the TIPS program or intentionally want to deceive federal intelligence agencies for your own kicks and giggles, then be my guest. You are a fool to play your stupid games for fun, or even to make a "valid" political point. They don't care about your motive, only the fact that you are willfully disruptive to their work.

[Zep]

You are missing the point.

Again, why should Mr Manifesto or I care about these organisations and silly laws if we wanted to act like you say?

[American]

Originally posted by Zep
Again, why should Mr Manifesto or I care about these organisations and silly laws if we wanted to act like you say?


I am not your lawyer. But you may need one someday if you really do what Mr Manfetish says he does all the time. (Unless you're posting from Mongolia, or a really f'ed up country like australia that no one cares about. You're all safe down there.)

[Zep]

Doesn't take YOU long to cotton on about the two of us, does it, American!

Perhaps I'll make those calls now. From my f'ed up phone in my insignificant f'ed up country. And YOUR super-powerful NSA can kiss my butt because they can't touch me! :p :)

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by American



I am not your lawyer. But you may need one someday if you really do what Mr Manfetish says he does all the time. (Unless you're posting from Mongolia, or a really f'ed up country like australia that no one cares about. You're all safe down there.)

Oooh, I don't think I need to pay any lawyers. If the NSA want to whine about the content of my email, I'll just email them this:

(_*_)

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
I really don't care that ECHELON (http://archive.aclu.org/echelonwatch/faq.html) can intercept my email and read them to make sure I'm not subversive.

I deliberate start my email messages with stuff like "I'm ready to be married to Allah and will bomb the Sears tower in Chicago at 9:11 to bring down Israel and the Capitalist infidel dogs who shoot the brothers of Mohammad..." well, you get the idea.

If the CIA want to read my boring mail that much, why not let them? Maybe after they've read a few million emails like mine they'll get the idea that intercepting email isn't the best way to track terrorists, and they'll go back to good old-fashioned detective work.

Then again, someone from some un-named agency may bump into you in a public restroom:
Excerpt from "Teeth of the Tiger" by Tom Clancy:

Most of the time, the brain works faster than the hands. This time he saw the blue eyes of the man who had bumped into him. They were ordinary enough, but their expression was not. By the time his mind had commanded his body to react, the man’s left hand had reached forward to grab his forehead, and something cold and sharp bit into the back of his neck, just below the skull. His head was pulled sharply backward, easing the passage of the knife into his spinal cord, severing it completely.
Death did not come instantly. His body collapsed when all of the electrochemical commands to his muscles ceased. Along with that went all feeling. Some distant fiery sensations at his neck were all that remained, and the shock of the moment didn’t allow them to grow into serious pain. He tried to breathe, but couldn’t comprend that he would never do that again. The man turned him around like a department store mannequin and carried him to the toilet stall. All he could do now was look and think. He saw the face, but it meant nothing to him. The face looked back, regarding him as a thing, an object, without even the dignity of hatred.

Malachi, you're a Darwin Award winner waiting to happen. :rolleyes:

-z

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Then again, someone from some un-named agency may bump into you in a public restroom:


Malachi, you're a Darwin Award winner waiting to happen. :rolleyes:

-z

OMG! THE MIB's ARE GOING TO GET ME! :rolleyes: I mean, :eek:

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


OMG! THE MIB's ARE GOING TO GET ME! :rolleyes: I mean, :eek:

Well, Mr. M...it's sure to be the comedy hit of the season if they do! :D I mean from a black-humor, Darwin award standpoint that is.

-z

[Graham]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Then again, someone from some un-named agency may bump into you in a public restroom:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpt from "Teeth of the Tiger" by Tom Clancy:



Rik, it was nice of you to finally confirm for everybody just where you get your insight into the intelligence services and international politics.

Teeth of the tiger (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/071814502X/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/202-7753759-5857408) - just take a quick look at this and tell me what category that book comes under, will you?

:p

Graham

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Well, Mr. M...it's sure to be the comedy hit of the season if they do! :D I mean from a black-humor, Darwin award standpoint that is.

-z

Can you imagine the de-briefing session?

"Who ordered Mr Manifesto's liquidation? We wasted all this money and resources when we could simply have waited until he finished his latest drinking binge!"

"Yes, sir, but on the bright side, there is one less internet geek in the world... and surely that has to count for something."

"I suppose you're right, but watch it in future! I know the public doesn't think so but we're on a budget! Now, to a real international menace, what've ya got on the A_Unique_Person guy besides that he's a Nazi and terrorism supporter?"

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Graham


Rik, it was nice of you to finally confirm for everybody just where you get your insight into the intelligence services and international politics.

Teeth of the tiger (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/071814502X/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/202-7753759-5857408) - just take a quick look at this and tell me what category that book comes under, will you?

:p

Graham

Fiction! Do I win a prize??

LOL! For that matter dude, why don't you tell ME what catagory

this book comes under! (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380703882/qid=1064592021/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_3_2/202-1715985-1571055)

Touch-aye! :D

-z

[BillyTK]

Jeebus H Corbett, I'm going to be a good boy if I risk the men in black coming to visit me and to read me passages from Tom Clancy novels!

[Graham]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Fiction! Do I win a prize??

LOL! For that matter dude, why don't you tell ME what catagory

this book comes under! (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380703882/qid=1064592021/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_3_2/202-1715985-1571055)

Touch-aye! :D

-z

Religion and related bullpatties I think it says (and if you disagree, I'll have Interesting Ian explain to you that what I see and what you see may be entirely different).

Seriously though - Tom Clancy? I thought everyone had given up reading his drivel by now. He doesn't even pretend to do any research any more.

Graham

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by BillyTK
Jeebus H Corbett, I'm going to be a good boy if I risk the men in black coming to visit me and to read me passages from Tom Clancy novels!

You think that's bad. At Camp Gitmo, they read people the titles of Robert Ludlum novels and Len Deighton trilogies- a clear breach of the Geneva convention.

Future Robert Ludlum Titles:
The Brooke Opposition
The Marilyn Mansion
The Banal Title

Future Len Deighton trilogies:
Spy Here, Spy There, Spy Everywhere
Up, Down, Around
Fat, Dumb, Happy

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Graham


Religion and related bullpatties I think it says (and if you disagree, I'll have Interesting Ian explain to you that what I see and what you see may be entirely different).

Seriously though - Tom Clancy? I thought everyone had given up reading his drivel by now. He doesn't even pretend to do any research any more.

Graham

Sadly must agree...I liked his Ryan/Clark books....but this one was not up to standards. I think he's got Stephen King disease. It usually sets in when the name on the book, and not the content of the book is sufficient to generate sales. :(

ahhh...thread hijack complete! My work here is done! ;)

-z

[Graham]

Originally posted by rikzilla


ahhh...thread hijack complete! My work here is done! ;)

-z

;) Glad to help, though I must say Clancy lost me long ago - the idea of Prince Charles weilding an uzi on a moving speedboat was just a little too hard to swallow!

Anyhoo, time for me to head home for the weekend - enjoy the remaining, what, six hours of your working day all you American types!*

Graham



* By my calculations, the weekend will never arrive in Australia at all, sorry about that :roll:

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Sadly must agree...I liked his Ryan/Clark books....but this one was not up to standards. I think he's got Stephen King disease. It usually sets in when the name on the book, and not the content of the book is sufficient to generate sales. :(

ahhh...thread hijack complete! My work here is done! ;)

-z

Whether you know it or not, you were an unwilling participant in my co-ordination of the 13/11 attacks due to fall on an undisclosed date in the future. I had to use a complex code system due to ECHELON.

The fools! Nothing can stop us now! Mwah hah ha haaa!

(Oh, and anyone with a financial stake in the big ferris wheel near the Millenium Dome in London..? Now might be a good time to bail)

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Zep
American, perhaps you might like to explain how Mr Manifesto and myself (also tempted to prod the ribs of the NSA), might be charged under any US legislation for the crime of reporting "suspicious acts" by telephone?

Have a little think before you answer...

Ummm, just helping out here: kidnapped, Guantanamo, Military Tribunal, gunshot. Does that help?

Why don't ya'all go for it. ;)

[Zep]

Originally posted by hammegk
Ummm, just helping out here: kidnapped, Guantanamo, Military Tribunal, gunshot. Does that help?

Why don't ya'all go for it. ;) A free all-expenses paid holiday to Cuba? Doesn't sound half bad...!

And I can't recall the last time that sort of thing happened in Australia. Usually the spooks sent to do the dirty deed find that it's WAY much better living here, they never complete their mission, and they never go home again.

Hang on, I can remember the last time something like this happened. Early 1950's, and it was some Russians. Only happened once, though, it was foiled by Australian police, and there were no gunshots.

Neh. I'll risk it.