How Do Animals Know...

[INRM]

How to hide themselves in exact places where they camouflage in well? Especially if they can't see themselves from the outside (they have no mirrors).

Is it a right angular gyrus thing? Since it obtains data from the limbs to orient oneself in space (plus when stimulated the right way, people have had out of body experiences) Or is it something else?

[DanishDynamite]

How to hide themselves in exact places where they camouflage in well? Especially if they can't see themselves from the outside (they have no mirrors).

Is it a right angular gyrus thing? Since it obtains data from the limbs to orient oneself in space (plus when stimulated the right way, people have had out of body experiences) Or is it something else?
It is something else.

A given species of animal has a better survival chance if it hides. Those individuals of that species which have a skin coloration which emulates the hiding places, are better at hiding and survive better, than those whose skin coloration are eye-catching. The rest is evolution.

The camouflage emerges from the type of places they hide.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Animals with chromatophores can change their color dynamically, based on mood or on what they see around them.

~~ Paul

[DanishDynamite]

Animals with chromatophores can change their color dynamically, based on mood or on what they see around them.

~~ Paul
Thanks for the info. Don't see the relevance, though. :)

[Earthborn]

The best camouflaged animals don't try to hide. They tend to sit near their food source and stay there in the open. Just look at walking stick and walking leaf insects. Their camouflage is just adapted to the environment they like the most.

Animals that specifically try to hide are not that well adapted to a specific environment. They have some generic earth tone that doesn't jump out anywhere. They are a bit smarter so they don't stay out in the open when confronted with a predator. Perhaps they when they are afraid they go to a place where they themselves have trouble seeing the predator, and that usually is a place where the predator will have trouble seeing them. It is perhaps somewhat of a "head in the sand" approach, but typical prey animals can look almost completely around them so I guess it would work pretty well.
Other animals may have played a bit of hide and seek when they were young and know from experience what the best hiding places are.

[DanishDynamite]

The best camouflaged animals don't try to hide. They tend to sit near their food source and stay there in the open. Just look at walking stick and walking leaf insects. Their camouflage is just adapted to the environment they like the most.
The best camouflaged animals don't need to hide.
Animals that specifically try to hide are not that well adapted to a specific environment. They have some generic earth tone that doesn't jump out anywhere. They are a bit smarter so they don't stay out in the open when confronted with a predator. Perhaps they when they are afraid they go to a place where they themselves have trouble seeing the predator, and that usually is a place where the predator will have trouble seeing them. It is perhaps somewhat of a "head in the sand" approach, but typical prey animals can look almost completely around them so I guess it would work pretty well.
Other animals may have played a bit of hide and seek when they were young and know from experience what the best hiding places are.
Yes, behaviour and camouflage ability go hand in hand. Each affects the other.

I was just trying to simplify things for INRM.

[JoeTheJuggler]

INRM, what makes you think animals "know" how to hide themselves?

I'd guess that for most examples of camouflage in animals, there is no evidence whatsoever that they're aware of what they look like to others.

In fact, there are very very few animals that exhibit the self-awareness that'd be prerequisite (as shown by the dot on the face/ looking in a mirror experiments)--and I don't believe any of them engage in camouflage (well--except humans in warfare).

Would you also say that organisms that use mimicry "know" how they are perceived by others? Does that include the Viceroy Butterfly (that mimics the appearance of the poisonous Monarch Butterfly)? What about the orchids that lure wasps to pollinate them by offering them fake sex partners? Surely orchids have no awareness at all.

Ditto what D.D. said--it's natural selection.

[Jeff Corey]

In S. J. Gould's book, "The hedgehog, the fox and the magister's pox", he discusses the work of Abbott Handerson Thayer, who described how successful animal camouflage wasn't about blending into the background as much as appearing two dimensional. Prey whose pelts were dark on top and light on the undersides cancelled out the normal 3D cue of light on top and dark (shadow) on the bottom, thereby being more likely to escape being eaten by predators.
Thayer's ideas were successfully employed in camouflaging ships and aircraft in WWII.

[articulett]

Thanks for the info. Don't see the relevance, though. :)

It's camouflage via a chemical reaction to the environment or mood. Like chameleons or octopuses. They don't have to "know" anything to do it. They have chemically responsive cells. Our skin doesn't need to "know" to tan to protect us from the sun or to get lighter in the winter to enhance vitamin D absorption. I think Paul's point was relevant and informative.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Is it a right angular gyrus thing? Since it obtains data from the limbs to orient oneself in space (plus when stimulated the right way, people have had out of body experiences) Or is it something else?

BTW, you seem to be confusing the stimulation of the subjective experience that feels like you're out of your body with actually being able to see things from outside your body. The fact that you can trigger this sensation by stimulating the right angle gyrus argues that the phenomenon is not real.

And there has never been a demonstration that anyone can use the out-of-body experience to get real information that isn't known to them otherwise (like identifying an object on top of a cabinet, for example).

[DanishDynamite]

It's camouflage via a chemical reaction to the environment or mood. Like chameleons or octopuses. They don't have to "know" anything to do it. They have chemically responsive cells. Our skin doesn't need to "know" to tan to protect us from the sun or to get lighter in the winter to enhance vitamin D absorption. I think Paul's point was relevant and informative.
Okay, I understand now. I still don't think it is relevant how an animal camouflages itself, though. The question is why an animal has a camouflaging ability which corresponds to the animals camouflaging needs. How an animal camouflages itself, whether through changing pigmentation or otherwise, isn't really relevant.

[skeptigirl]

The best camouflaged animals don't need to hide.

Yes, behaviour and camouflage ability go hand in hand. Each affects the other.

I was just trying to simplify things for INRM.Let me simplify it even more.

Evolution.

If you hide where you blend in, you live long enough to reproduce.

If you blend in where you hide, you live long enough to reproduce.

The behavior and the camouflage evolved hand in hand.

As to some of the other comments here, there are many types of camouflage. There are many means of hiding that have evolved. Then there is mimicry that spreads genes like a flower which looks like a female wasp attracting a male wasp who then carries the pollen away.

In fact, so much variety and so many niches filled is strong evidence no design was involved. It makes more sense evolution would give you camouflage that matched hiding behavior than design because there is such an incredible variety and complexity of interactions between species.

[JoeTheJuggler]

In fact, so much variety and so many niches filled is strong evidence no design was involved.

I think this is an OBE troll rather than an ID troll.

It's hard to say since it's mimicking a person asking a real question in a forum.

[skeptigirl]

I think this is an OBE troll rather than an ID troll.

It's hard to say since it's mimicking a person asking a real question in a forum.

OBE? Overcome by events? (Internet Acronyms page)

His posts do have that ask a question with a hidden agenda style:
I think this is the exact thing I wanted to cover when I titled my post "People believe in god because our brains' architecture tells us to".

Does the parietal lobe handle all sensory data? And what causes the parietal lobe to produce the feeling of being "one ness with a higher power".

Not that I really believe there necesarily is a higher power, I just want to hear the hard science behind it.

Plus another argument you can use is that sociopaths only make up a percent of the population, yet atheists make up 10-20% last I checked. And that obviously implies that all atheists are not sociopaths (sociopaths are amoral).

Make sense?


OT:
This was mentioned allegedly in the New York Times, in an article that which concluded or stated that people worship God because our brain's architecture tells us to.

How does the architecture of our brain tell us to worship God?

INRM


OT no one replied to:
I heard something recently which said that Religion may be explainable by the brains architecture.

Anybody have further data?

Why is this such a big deal? It's obvious morality is biological... after all, there are sociopaths right? They're human and don't have a conscience right?

And sociopathy to my knowledge is linked to brain damage during gestation or just after birth right?

[Rolfe]

<derail>
Been watching the baby lambs in the fields on the way to work. So cute, they go from wobbly baby to playful gambolling so quickly. The lamb-rearing has now reached the creche stage. (I've seen this with beef cattle and their calves too.) All the babies are together in one part of the field, and one or two of the mothers are right there with them, not grazing. The rest of the flock or herd is getting on with stuffing its collective rumen, untroubled by importunate infants.

How do the "on duty" mothers know it's their turn, and stand guard so conscientiously?
</derail>

Rolfe.

[DanishDynamite]

<derail>
Been watching the baby lambs in the fields on the way to work. So cute, they go from wobbly baby to playful gambolling so quickly. The lamb-rearing has now reached the creche stage. (I've seen this with beef cattle and their calves too.) All the babies are together in one part of the field, and one or two of the mothers are right there with them, not grazing. The rest of the flock or herd is getting on with stuffing its collective rumen, untroubled by importunate infants.

How do the "on duty" mothers know it's their turn, and stand guard so conscientiously?
</derail>

Rolfe.

It's in their genes.

Now, stop derailing the thread. :)

(As to how it is in their genes, I suspect it has to do with status and status-related smells. Excellent question, BTW!)

[Jeff Corey]

<derail>
Been watching the baby lambs in the fields on the way to work. So cute, they go from wobbly baby to playful gambolling so quickly. The lamb-rearing has now reached the creche stage. (I've seen this with beef cattle and their calves too.) All the babies are together in one part of the field, and one or two of the mothers are right there with them, not grazing. The rest of the flock or herd is getting on with stuffing its collective rumen, untroubled by importunate infants.

How do the "on duty" mothers know it's their turn, and stand guard so conscientiously?
</derail>

Rolfe.
About this time last year, we saw the same thing in Ireland. The trouble and strife was all going "How cute, isn't that adorable" and I'm going {Shepherd's pie}

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Thanks for the info. Don't see the relevance, though.
My comment wasn't relevant to:

How to hide themselves in exact places where they camouflage in well? Especially if they can't see themselves from the outside (they have no mirrors).
?


Okay, I understand now. I still don't think it is relevant how an animal camouflages itself, though. The question is why an animal has a camouflaging ability which corresponds to the animals camouflaging needs. How an animal camouflages itself, whether through changing pigmentation or otherwise, isn't really relevant.
I was responding to INRM's remark about "seeing themselves":

Especially if they can't see themselves from the outside (they have no mirrors).

~~ Paul

[JoeTheJuggler]

OBE? Overcome by events? (Internet Acronyms page)


:D Out of Body Experience. He worked it in there parenthetically, but I think it's the real motive for the post.

[Jeff Corey]

OME, out of mind experience.

[JoeTheJuggler]

OME oh my!

[INRM]

When I said people had out of body experiences, I didn't mean literally that their soul was outside their body. I was simply saying that when people had their right angular gyrus stimulated they felt as if they were outside of their body.

INRM

[JoeTheJuggler]

When I said people had out of body experiences, I didn't mean literally that their soul was outside their body. I was simply saying that when people had their right angular gyrus stimulated they felt as if they were outside of their body.


But you said it in the context of how animals know what they look like from outside themselves. That's why I said it sounded like you had the sensation of being out-of-body confused with the actual ability to see from outside the body.

Sorry if I misunderstood--but what did you mean in this context?

[Dark Jaguar]

Such an out of body experience would not tell the animal what they looked like. That experience could give them any sort of information, most likely inaccurate.

Also, not that it's really needed, but the animal, if they are like me, can see what they look like just by looking down. They won't see the whole thing but that should give a decent impression. Most likely though the animals just run for the default cover and if they blend in it's more like two elements corrosponding due to natural selection to work together outside of any thought process on the animal's part.

But of course there's one way to test it. Paint the animal neon pink.

[Mashuna]

<derail>
Been watching the baby lambs in the fields on the way to work. So cute, they go from wobbly baby to playful gambolling so quickly.
Rolfe.

I'll bet £50 on blaa-aaack.

:boxedin:

[JC Fla]

Just from personal experience only, but successful camouflage consists mainly of staying still and breaking up your pattern.(in creatures that cannot change their pigment or have mimicking body shapes)

[Cuddles]

Am I the only one wondering what a "right angular gyru" is, and how exactly you stimualate one? Does it hurt? Is it legal? Enquiring minds want to know.

[JoeTheJuggler]

A gyrus is one of the bumpy-out parts on the neocortex (the inny parts are called sulci and fissures). The right angle gyrus is at the juncture of the parietal and temporal lobes.

The research INRM is talking about was on humans. When you stimulate that spot on the cortex with a little electrical jolt, you induce the sensation of an OBE. There are no pain receptors inside the brain, so it doesn't hurt (sliding back the scalp and opening up the skull obviously must be done with local anesthesia). I'm guessing this is something discovered during brain surgery for other purposes. At least some of these were severe epilepsy patients who'd had a number of electrodes implanted in their brain (so you can stimulate different spots with the head closed back up) in an effort to control seizures.

Back to out-of-body experience in the context of animal camouflage: most animals don't have awareness of what they look like to others. Animals don't "know" or need to know what they look like to be effectively camouflaged. I think we covered all this earlier in the thread.

[Soapy Sam]

Natural selection is not selecting the "right" animals, but selecting out the "wrong" behaviour.
Mirrors are not required, or even a mental body image.
I suspect it is precisely that humans do have a mental body image that is causing INRM to wonder about this .

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

How does a duck know what direction south is? Or how to tell his wife from all the other ducks?

[parrotslave]

How does a cuttlefish know what colours to change to match the environment when it doesn't have cone photoreceptors to see the colours?

[JC Fla]

How does a duck know what direction south is? Or how to tell his wife from all the other ducks?

His wife will tell him which direction South is (she asked) and how can he miss HER quack...