I will be asked where I get my morals.

[Ceritus]

I go to court today for visitation of my 9 month old daughter where I am fighting for it. My ex-girlfriend wants to deny me visitation mainly because I am atheist and when I go on the stand today her lawyer will most likely ask me where I get my morals from since I am atheist. I know there is a very long scientific explanation for it but I am looking for something short and sweet that I could reply. I could answer it was the way I was brought up but my mother is catholic and then he could use that against me saying if I help raise this child in an atheist household how could anyone be sure that I instill good morals into my daughter. The ironic part is my ex's family is very christian and her brother is in jail for 30+ years and grew up in a religious household. I on the otherhand have just a few speeding tickets from about 2 years ago but that is the extent to my record.

[skeptigirl]

Is this in the US? That wouldn't be allowed in this state. Tell them you get your morals from your parents and your upbringing anyway. Why would you have to learn religion and morals from your Catholic parents? Why couldn't you learn what's right or wrong just by itself? People who would ask such a question in a custody hearing aren't going to understand the natural science answers anyway.

The other thing if/when it comes up is, tell them you don't see why someone needs to be afraid of going to hell to know it isn't right to lie cheat steal or kill someone. You don't think those things are right and God and hell have nothing to do with it.

I can't imagine why anyone thinks morals come from religion anyway. It's such a bogus claim.

[Ceritus]

Yes in Oklahoma. Also I understand they wouldn't understand natural science answers which is why I am looking for something short and sweet. I keep mulling over it, I am thinking something along the lines of "the same place we all do, our conscience". If asked to expound on that I think I could reply something along the lines of instead of doing the right thing in fear of retribution I do it out of the simple sincerity of just wanting to.

[Rasmus]

I go to court today for visitation of my 9 month old daughter where I am fighting for it. My ex-girlfriend wants to deny me visitation mainly because I am atheist and when I go on the stand today her lawyer will most likely ask me where I get my morals from since I am atheist.

Why are oyu discussing this with us rather than your lawyer - and why only now?

Why will you most likely be asked for the source of your morals? Is that a common thing in suchg cases? (me = clueless)

I know there is a very long scientific explanation for it but I am looking for something short and sweet that I could reply. I could answer it was the way I was brought up but my mother is catholic and then he could use that against me saying if I help raise this child in an atheist household how could anyone be sure that I instill good morals into my daughter.

And you would deserve no better.

The ironic part is my ex's family is very christian and her brother is in jail for 30+ years and grew up in a religious household. I on the otherhand have just a few speeding tickets from about 2 years ago but that is the extent to my record.

I would discuss bringing this up with my lawyer if the other side invites such arguments.

Personally, if I had to, I would try and explain that I have "good morals", what they look like and how they influence my life. If you defend that you got your morlas from this source or that despite being an atheist you are granting them a major point of their argument, IMHO.

I think it is important to know whwere this is taking place. Where can atheism be used to deny a parent visitation rights so bluntly and obviously, anyway?

And again: Discuss this with a lawyer that knows what is likely to happen in court!

The short and sweet version - though this is likely not suitable to bring up there - is that religion prescrives good values just as well as bad ones. Everyone relies on a seperate idea of morality to chose between the two. So, unless your ex is in favour of stoning people to death for various sins, she is not deriving her moral code from her religion, even though her religion may well play a part in the process.

[skeptigirl]

Arm yourself with a few famous named examples.

Famous Atheists, Agnostics, Deists, and FreeThinkers (http://www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htm)

And I think, the same place we all do is a good answer.

[tkingdoll]

Holy moly! I am staggered at this scenario - how can a court make a judgement against atheism? There is no evidence suggesting atheists are less moral, what planet is this? Planet Dark Ages?

Anyway, that rant doesn't help you. Firstly, I would like to say how deeply sorry I am for your situation and that your visitation rights need to be defended because of your atheism.

Secondly, regarding something to say, I would make sure to keep it all positive and to avoid bashing religion if you can. Important points to mention:

1) you will ensure your child is free to choose the religion of her choice and will respect her beliefs and worship habits

2) regarding morals, you will teach your daughter what you yourself, and any good person, aspires to, to be a good, kind person, to help others and not break the law of the land. You will also instill in her the understanding that all life is precious and people and animals should be treated with respect, care and kindness.

Or a variation on that. In other words, rather than trying to defend your atheism (which is pointless in this scenario), demonstrate that you are a moral person. If you show that you know what morals are and agree with them, then there won't be any need to get into a theological discussion. And consult a lawyer!!!!

[skeptigirl]

Maybe it won't be as bad as you think. Perhaps the girl thinks she has grounds but the judge won't agree.

My experience has been very mixed. Judges have too much leeway for their personal opinions. Look at Judge Moore with his 10 Commandments fight. On the other hand, the judge that ruled against ID in the Dover trial was a Bush appointee. And surprise, he/she? ruled for science and against teaching the Bible in school science classes.

You just never know but I would hope most judges don't consider a parents' religion or lack of it relevant in custody and visitation hearings.

[Ceritus]

Thanks for some of the ideas guys and gals. I am hoping this judge is rational and won't allow this to go too far. court in T minus 5 hours 38 min, I am so nervous.

[Rasmus]

Again, talk to your lawyer about this. *nag*

Are there any good examples that you could talk about that would demonstrate that you are a moral person? Charity work, etc?

Perhaps situations where you had to set an example for your daughter - even though that seems somewhat unlikely at 9 months.

Are there any specific points you dissagreed over with your ex? What is it she would view as immoral about you (or claim was immoral)? Other than your atheism, of course. Maybe you can show that there are differences and dissagreements, but that these didnt mean one of you was immoral. I am not asure how riskey this would be, though.

And good luck.

[Piggy]

My answer would be this:

Because I don't believe in an afterlife, I believe this is our only shot, and we have to get it right. I don't think you can atone later.

So it is our absolute obligation to take care of our bodies and minds by not abusing drugs and alcohol, for example. It is our absolute obligation to do our best to get along with our neighbors, and others in this world, and that means being honest, being fair, being kind, not harming others for selfish reasons.

Examples through history, and today, show us the destructive outcomes of lying, cheating, stealing, drug abuse, and violence, to name a few.

And regardless of where we believe we came from, we're still human. And being human, we naturally have feelings of empathy, sympathy, compassion, and love for family and friends.

Those are the morals I would teach my daughter, because I love her more than my own life, and I want her to be happy and healthy, and to live in a peaceful, just, and prosperous society.

[scratchy]

Im with Piggy! Bring a cd-player with some "final victorious speach"-music, a big american flag and a wind machine to get it moving and its hole in one.

[Ceritus]

Again, talk to your lawyer about this. *nag*

Are there any good examples that you could talk about that would demonstrate that you are a moral person? Charity work, etc?

Perhaps situations where you had to set an example for your daughter - even though that seems somewhat unlikely at 9 months.

Are there any specific points you dissagreed over with your ex? What is it she would view as immoral about you (or claim was immoral)? Other than your atheism, of course. Maybe you can show that there are differences and dissagreements, but that these didnt mean one of you was immoral. I am not asure how riskey this would be, though.

And good luck.

I am an eagle scout and I have been in the military as a meteorologist for 6 years 3 months and have done numerous things to help the community to include volunteering for habitat for humanity through first baptist church over here.

[UnrepentantSinner]

The answer is I don't see how that is germaine to whether I have made a good father to my daughter since she was born or whether I will continue to do so. My criminal record is clear. No one has accused me of amorality. There is nothing to impeach me as being anything other than an upstanding citizen and positive influence to those around me. Particular religions can't be used to determine one's fitness as a parent, and I aver that a lack of religion cannot either.

At which point I'd pull out a photo of Kevin Federline and say "This man has joint custody of his children and yet you would deny me visitation rights?"

[JC Fla]

I find it disturbing that this question would even come up. I mentioned it to my wife (who has worked in the court system) and she was very upset at the idea of a judge asking this, and wondered if it was too late to ask for another judge. One has nothing to do with the other. I would say you have had some excellent advice, good luck, and all of us "weekend" dads are cheering for you. IF you can, please keep us updated on how it is going.

[Rasmus]

I am an eagle scout and I have been in the military as a meteorologist for 6 years 3 months and have done numerous things to help the community to include volunteering for habitat for humanity through first baptist church over here.

Right. That settles it. I guess it is clear to all now that you are the ammoral scum of this planet. Please stop waisting our oxygen.

... where was I?

So not only are you setting a good example, you are even doing so side by side with the curch, i.e. clearly not opposed to what the churches are or do. I don't think there is a lot of room left to accuse you of being immoral or that you might force your daughter into your atheism or anything.

[jon]

That's absolutely appalling, Ceritus - as has been suggested, speak to your lawyer about this, if you haven't already. When people ask me, I tend to say that I believe we have ethical obligations to out fellow humans - practical examples of the voluntary work you've done, donations to charities etc are also a great help. I'd argue that I try (and, of course, often fail) to act ethically because this is the right thing to do.

ETA - good luck!

[Ichneumonwasp]

Good luck Ceritus.

[Dr Adequate]

"I find it easy, natural, and emotionally satisfying to love my fellow human beings without believing that there are prizes in the afterlife for doing so."

[tkingdoll]

Ceritus, please let us know how it goes!

[Dr Adequate]

"We cannot live pleasantly without living wisely, honorably, and justly; nor live wisely, honorably, and justly without living pleasantly." (Epicurus (http://skepticwiki.no-ip.org/index.php/Epicureanism), Letter to Menoeceus)

[CurtC]

I'm too late to contribute, but I'm interested in hearing the outcome. In particular, I predict that Ceritus's former girlfriend might want to deny visitation because he's an atheist, but that won't come up in court. Her lawyer will know that the court couldn't consider the religion (or lack of) as a basis of awarding visitation (and just visitation I gather, not even custody).

So the question of where Ceritus gets his morals will not be asked. That's my prediction.

But I do have an answer ready - it's pretty easy to show that no one gets their morals from the Bible. The Bible is full of obviously immoral behavior, which God approves of. There's the Jephthah story in Judges 11, where a warrior strikes a deal with God that if he wins a battle, he'll offer to God as a burned sacrifice, the first thing that comes out of his house when he returns home. This turns out to be his only daughter. The good and honorable Jephthah follows through on his commitment and sacrifices her.

The Bible also tells you just how hard God wants you to beat your slaves: anything up to the point of causing actual injury is OK with him.

Now if you find either of these acts to be immoral, then you must be getting that sense of morality from somewhere other than your religion.

The fact that other higher species also exhibit social morality (as in behavior codes and punishment for breaking them) tells us that our sense of morality is hard-wired into our brains. This gets screwed up in some people, but the vast majority of people are decent folks who would rather help their fellow citizens, not because of religion, but simply because they want to.

[scratchy]

"I find it easy, natural, and emotionally satisfying to love my fellow human beings without believing that there are prizes in the afterlife for doing so."
Yes!!! There you have it! And shouldnt god - if he existed - be even more pleased with a person that lives his life according to that principle, rather than the sheep that trembles from fear of him?

[Soapy Sam]

"I find it easy, natural, and emotionally satisfying to love my fellow human beings without believing that there are prizes in the afterlife for doing so."

You mean that, or you just made it up for Ceritus?

"I find it possible to tolerate humans , because I know they're all going to die ." How's that sound?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Hey, good luck! I'm crossing my fingers for you. Not that it does any good.

[Khyron]

*puts on religiwoo hat*

He's in court RIGHT NOW. everyone, pray really hard for him!

Sorry. couldn't resist. Good luck, Ceritas.

[EternalSceptic]

Yes in Oklahoma. Also I understand they wouldn't understand natural science answers which is why I am looking for something short and sweet. I keep mulling over it, I am thinking something along the lines of "the same place we all do, our conscience". If asked to expound on that I think I could reply something along the lines of instead of doing the right thing in fear of retribution I do it out of the simple sincerity of just wanting to.

We have a proverb here in german: "Was Du nicht willst das man Dir tu, das füg auch keinem Anderen zu" (what you don't want to suffer do not do to somebody else).

A very honorable behavior, and IMHO morally superior to many religious rules.

[Kaylee]

I'm too late to the thread to help, but I just want to say that I am really moved by how quickly so many people stepped up to the plate and came through with links, ideas, and even ready made phrases for Ceritus to use in court today -- just in case.

Good luck Ceritus, and let us know how it went.

[pgwenthold]

When I saw the title, my initial response was "Bill and Ted." But I'm not sure that will necessarily work in a courtroom.

[EternalSceptic]

We have a proverb here in german: "Was Du nicht willst das man Dir tu, das füg auch keinem Anderen zu" (what you don't want to suffer do not do to somebody else).

A very honorable behavior, and IMHO morally superior to many religious rules.

Just let me add:
I wish you good luck with all my heart - not mainly for you, but for the child. I wish you sincerelly that there might be a way of agreement between you and your ex which puts the smallest possible load on the child.
(Having gone through such a situation and luckily settled it in friendship).

You and your ex were in love. It died. But why that hate? Why not, as friends, take the responsibility?

I am pretty old, but my feelings may apply to younger peolpe as well: As soon as we have children it is not our world anymore, it is the world of our children. We have done what we could, and they will do what they can do, and we will have difficulties to understand what they will do. Such is life. Let us do our best not to spoil them. With quarreling about them we will spoil them for sure.

Good luck once more, and good inspiration.

[EternalSceptic]

Double post. My apologies

[aggle-rithm]

I am an eagle scout and I have been in the military as a meteorologist for 6 years 3 months and have done numerous things to help the community to include volunteering for habitat for humanity through first baptist church over here.

Your scouting experience is significant, because that organization drills into boys at a young age the idea that "good deeds" should be done without expectation of reward, but for the satisfaction of having done the right thing.

At least, that was my experience.

[toddjh]

I know I'm too late to contribute to your original question, but I hope things turned out well, and I sure hope our legal system is mature enough that demonstrating that you're a good person renders any discussion of why you're a good person irrelevant.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Hey, Ceritus, I don't know you, of course, but it seems to me your daughter is very lucky to have two parents who love her so much.

I wish you all the best.

[strathmeyer]

Perhaps you should ask Rachel Bevilacqua, who had her 10 year old child taken away from her when a judge learned of her religion.

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/01/11...gdalen_ge.html
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/04/07...pdate_com.html

[Dr Adequate]

You mean that, or you just made it up for Ceritus? Both.

I'd normally give that answer but in a sort of sarcastic way that implies that anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot. I'm not sure that that would go down very well in Ceritus' position, so I took a deep breath and tried being sincere instead.

[Ceritus]

Ceritus, please let us know how it goes!

Well, I will find out the judgment today sometime the judge said he would have the action written out tommorrow (which is today).

The fact that I am atheist did come up as I suspected and it went something like this. I was on the stand and her lawyer was berating me with tons of questions each of which I had an honest answer for then he said from what I understand you are a humanist and would deny Elizabeth (my daughter) from going to church. I replied I would never deny my daughter from going to church, if she wanted to go to church. I would be happy to support her in that decision, my main goal is to show her all the possible options so she can make a sound decision that she is happy with. That I wanted her to critically think about all decisions she makes so one day she can become a well-rounded adult. Then he replied you have already made that decision for yourself? Then I replied and said that is correct, I do not go to church nor do I follow any sort of religion.

I even was asked why I did not marry her and do the "right thing" after I found out she was pregnant. I replied that it may have seemed like a good option from your point of view but I find it far more devastating for a child to be raised in a household where there would be constant fighting that would eventually end up in a divorce a few years later. Then he even asked me why I would have sex with a person I did not intend to marry and I replied, "Because I wanted to and it was enjoyable". Then he asked why then did I not step up and marry her for the best interest of Elizabeth so I could be in her life. Where I replied "I already answered that question and I am stepping up right now so I can be in her life"

By the end of the hearing I actually felt bad for her lawyer because he didn't have a leg to stand on and I know he is just trying to earn a paycheck but in my honest opinion he did absolutely horrible. My lawyer on the other hand did a wonderful job and I am really feeling good about the decision the judge will make today.

The only thing that really does make me nervous though is that while my wife and I were sitting in the hall waiting for the previous hearing to be finished a young child in the judges office that was accompanied by 3 other adults and a secretary were singing happy birthday to Jesus because the young child felt like singing and they all joined in even though obviously it is not Christmas. Altus Oklahoma is a scary place to be an atheist.

[Dr Adequate]

From what I understand you are a humanist and would deny Elizabeth (my daughter) from going to church. "From what I understand you are a Protestant and want to burn Catholics at the stake."

Unforunately, being a sarcastic smartass doesn't win you any points, which I think is most unfair.

[Slimething]

Ceritus, I sure hope justice is met in your case. I agree that the opposition's lawyer probably did harm to his side's case by bringing up religion. Even if staff were singing sons about jebus, a judge is charged with being fair to all, regardless of religion. I just hope you got a good judge.

If it comes up again, I always use the Golden Rule. That's not religious and everyone understands it as being the underlying principal of what is good.

Best of luck!

[Miss Anthrope]

I just love how this lawyer attacked you for having sex out of wedlock, when I do believe that the *ahem*, "godly" mother must have consented to such a thing as well.

I can't believe such things are allowed in a court of law in this day and age. I guess I've been sheltered living on the West Coast my whole life. I couldn't even bring up an objection to my ex husband taking my (at the time) 7 year old to Burning Man in court, it wasn't considered a "moral concern".

[Yahzi]

Then he even asked me why I would have sex with a person I did not intend to marry
You're a better man than me. I would have stared and him and said, "I'm sorry, but we have to take away your man card now."

[Ceritus]

It was suprisingly easy to not be a smart ass to this guy even though it is against every part of my being. I guess when the stakes are so high you can do just about anything.

[SezMe]

To give you (especially non-USAians) an idea of the cultural environment Ceritus is embedded in, visit here (http://www.gov.ok.gov/display_article.php?article_id=643&article_type=1) and here (http://www.state.ok.us/governor/display_article.php?article_id=644&article_type=0). If you think California is the land of fruits and nuts, visit Oklahoma.

I hope you get your judgement, Ceritus. Keep us informed.

[Ceritus]

It is pretty crazy here.

[Bellatrix]

Ceritus,
I know that I'm far too late to offer any good advice, but it sounds like your ex-girlfriend's lawer did more harm then good by bringing up relgion. As a side note, I understand a little of what's going on here america is a scary place to be an atheist if you live in the bible belt or the midwest. I hope everything works out in the best interest of you child.

[Ceritus]

Thank you bella and thank you everyone for your support. I really appreciate it folks.

[ponderingturtle]

Ceritus,
I know that I'm far too late to offer any good advice, but it sounds like your ex-girlfriend's lawer did more harm then good by bringing up relgion. As a side note, I understand a little of what's going on here america is a scary place to be an atheist if you live in the bible belt or the midwest. I hope everything works out in the best interest of you child.

That depends on how much the judge listens to a higher law. The thing to hope for is that he got an good judge. As opposed to say the one in NY who threw out a spoucal abuse case with the agruement "every woman needs to be hit now and then"

[ZirconBlue]

My smarta** response:

"Where do I get my morals? Costco. In the five gallon bucket."

My serious response:

You've gotten some good advice in this thread, and it sounds like you handled it well in court. I hope it turns out well for you. In a just world, there would be no question that it would.

[Miss Anthrope]

You're a better man than me. I would have stared and him and said, "I'm sorry, but we have to take away your man card now."

Sounds like this lawyer guy was never issued one...

[Orangutan]

The suspense is killing me. Good luck Ceritus.

[Ceritus]

No updates yet :( still waiting for the action it should come today maybe. The judge said it would be done yesterday but it was never finished. I wonder what he could be possibly thinking about....

[SezMe]

He's not thinking about anything. He's too busy joining the Guv praying for rain.

Sorry...couldn't resist. I'm on standby awaiting your outcome.

[Jackalgirl]

I just love how this lawyer attacked you for having sex out of wedlock, when I do believe that the *ahem*, "godly" mother must have consented to such a thing as well.

Well, obviously women simply exist to be sexual objects and can't be held responsible for their own decisions regarding sex (since that's their purpose). Duh!

<sigh>

[Jackalgirl]

That depends on how much the judge listens to a higher law. The thing to hope for is that he got an good judge. As opposed to say the one in NY who threw out a spoucal abuse case with the agruement "every woman needs to be hit now and then"

Holy cow -- where was that case, specifically? Do you know when, and which parties were involved? Links, please -- I want to look up that judgement!

[ponderingturtle]

Holy cow -- where was that case, specifically? Do you know when, and which parties were involved? Links, please -- I want to look up that judgement!

It was from an article about a set of NY judges who are elected. There is unlikely to be much of a public record of the judgement as they do things like hold court in their kitchen.

A link to the article is somewhere on the JREF board. My google fu is failing me though.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Holy cow -- where was that case, specifically? Do you know when, and which parties were involved? Links, please -- I want to look up that judgement!

Women don't get blamed for sex?! In what world?!

The only reason he got the full blame for what both he and his now ex-gf did is because he was the one on trial.

If it was the other way around and a woman was fighting for custody and she was attacked for having sex with someone she would never marry and she "wanted to and it was fun", she'd have kissed her custody rights goodbye.

Women are always blamed for unwanted pregnancy, too, even though they didn't knock themselves up. It's just that he was the one on trial.

[I less than three logic]

Women don't get blamed for sex?! In what world?!

The only reason he got the full blame for what both he and his now ex-gf did is because he was the one on trial.

If it was the other way around and a woman was fighting for custody and she was attacked for having sex with someone she would never marry and she "wanted to and it was fun", she'd have kissed her custody rights goodbye.

Women are always blamed for unwanted pregnancy, too, even though they didn't knock themselves up. It's just that he was the one on trial.
I think you might have missed a post. I believe Jackelgirl was responding to this post here.

That depends on how much the judge listens to a higher law. The thing to hope for is that he got an good judge. As opposed to say the one in NY who threw out a spoucal abuse case with the agruement "every woman needs to be hit now and then"
More about blaming women for being victims of spousal abuse than for adultery and unwanted pregnancy. Both are wrong though.

[ponderingturtle]

It was from an article about a set of NY judges who are elected. There is unlikely to be much of a public record of the judgement as they do things like hold court in their kitchen.

A link to the article is somewhere on the JREF board. My google fu is failing me though.

Found the discussion

Link to post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1953227#post1953227)

The actual article seems to want registering for the New York Times online though.

edit here (http://www.scjc.state.ny.us/Determinations/R/roberts.htm) is a link to an official NY state report of the event where the judge said "Every woman needs a good pounding every now and then"

Ah the joys of an elected judiciary

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

No. The OP was asked why he never married the mother of his child and he said because they'd only be headed for divorce. He was asked why he would even have sex with someone he wouldn't want to marry and he said cause it was fun.

Someone very rightly pointed out that it takes two to have sex and conceive a child and no one asked the mother what she was doing having sex with someone she didn't want to be with.

Jackalgirl responded that it's always the man's fault and I said not so.

[ponderingturtle]

No. The OP was asked why he never married the mother of his child and he said because they'd only be headed for divorce. He was asked why he would even have sex with someone he wouldn't want to marry and he said cause it was fun.

Someone very rightly pointed out that it takes two to have sex and conceive a child and no one asked the mother what she was doing having sex with someone she didn't want to be with.

Jackalgirl responded that it's always the man's fault and I said not so.

Yes but that was not the message of Jackalgirl that you responded to. The message you quoted was a responce to my mentioning how judges can make decisions on things with no legal basis.

You might be quoteing the right person, but as a responce to that statement it makes no sense.

[joobz]

It really is up to the judge. His discision will be based on what he thinks the best thing for the child is. If the judge feels that children need "guidance", he may think that letting a child decide for themselves what to believe is too premissive of an environment.

Not everyone views independant thinking as a positive.

[Jackalgirl]

No. The OP was asked why he never married the mother of his child and he said because they'd only be headed for divorce. He was asked why he would even have sex with someone he wouldn't want to marry and he said cause it was fun.

Someone very rightly pointed out that it takes two to have sex and conceive a child and no one asked the mother what she was doing having sex with someone she didn't want to be with.

Jackalgirl responded that it's always the man's fault and I said not so.

I was being heavily sarcastic in my reply -- I'm sorry it didn't come through strongly enough. I know well enough that responsibility lies on both parties' shoulders; I was simply reacting to the implication, as Miss Anthrope pointed out, that Ceritas was the one who had to think of future consequences (no mention made of the woman), with a sarcastic rejoinder about how so obvious it is that women are too mentally and emotionally deficient to be required to think of such paltry things as "consequences". <-- that was sarcasm. ; )

[Jackalgirl]

Found the discussion

Link to post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1953227#post1953227)

The actual article seems to want registering for the New York Times online though.

edit here (http://www.scjc.state.ny.us/Determinations/R/roberts.htm) is a link to an official NY state report of the event where the judge said "Every woman needs a good pounding every now and then"

Ah the joys of an elected judiciary

Thank you for the links! Very interesting..and horrible. It is good to see, however, that the judge was removed as a result of that (and all of the other stuff he pulled).

[pgwenthold]

Someone very rightly pointed out that it takes two to have sex and conceive a child and no one asked the mother what she was doing having sex with someone she didn't want to be with..


Who said she didn't want to be with him?

Perhaps she wanted to marry him, but since that needs to be a mutual decision, that's why they aren't?

[Math Maniac]

I live in Tulsa, OK and can attest to the downright "religiousness" of many Oklahomans. While I believe in trying to work within that culture here (not berating "religiousness" when it's not called for), I cannot believe that you would have to "suffer" that kind of treatment in a governmental court of law.

While people may be "religious," I do find that those same people make many of the same decisions to be "sinners" as well as make the same mistakes as atheists or people in general.

Please don't get the impression that OK is just full of backwater hillbillies ready to "lay the fire of faith upon the masses." There are many, many good-natured religious and non-religious folk in OK. Sometimes, though, it seems as though one only encounters the former!

It's just too bad that your Judge is such an a**.

[Slimething]

edit here (http://www.scjc.state.ny.us/Determinations/R/roberts.htm) is a link to an official NY state report of the event where the judge said "Every woman needs a good pounding every now and then"

Ah the joys of an elected judiciary

Thanks for the link. Even with the link, it seems so bizzare to have people like this around. :covereyes

[kittynh]

wow! You know I am not an atheist, but I posted once about why I find my atheist friends more moral than my religious friends.

I joke that "Atheists are good for nothing".

But really, if you are an avowed atheist, you are being good because it is the right thing. You aren't being good for any reward or promises in the future.

I got the "good for nothing " from my grandmother. I wondered why I wasn't given money and such for good grades. She told me I should get good grades because it was good for ME, and for my future, but not for money or even to please her.

When my daughters were younger I sent them to a school that doesn't give grades. The point was to learn, not to earn.

So you are "good for nothing".

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I was being heavily sarcastic in my reply -- I'm sorry it didn't come through strongly enough. I know well enough that responsibility lies on both parties' shoulders; I was simply reacting to the implication, as Miss Anthrope pointed out, that Ceritas was the one who had to think of future consequences (no mention made of the woman), with a sarcastic rejoinder about how so obvious it is that women are too mentally and emotionally deficient to be required to think of such paltry things as "consequences". <-- that was sarcasm. ; )

Oh, ****, I scrolled to the bottom to reply and decided to quote you so I scroll up and quote the first Jackalgirl avatar I saw. Honest mistake, I could have sworn I quoted the right one. Even remember reading your quote in my reply. :eek: That's so weird.

Uh, I know you were being sarcastic :confused: . I'm saying it's off the point- no one's thinking is that women are too dumb to be held responsible. In fact, they're very often the only ones held responsible for extramarital sex and unwanted pregnancies, as if it doesn't take two.

Actually, I'm almost happy when a man is solely blamed, for once.

[osmosis]

Actually, I'm almost happy when a man is solely blamed, for once.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

(but three lefts do)

[Miss Anthrope]

ah, never mind.

[JC Fla]

I joke that "Atheists are good for nothing".

But really, if you are an avowed atheist, you are being good because it is the right thing. You aren't being good for any reward or promises in the future.



Very interesting Kittynh. I have heard this point made before, but never so succinctly. Don't mind if I borrow it, do you?

[Tanstaafl]

So, Ceritus....


Any more news???

[EGarrett]

Beat the Atheist/Moral question in a few easy steps. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=78853)

Later in the thread, someone gives a good all-purpose answer when they say you can just answer "Empathy. I wouldn't want to be raped or stolen from or hurt, so I don't steal, rape, or hurt others."

It tends to just stop the questioning cold...and you can just stare at them while they try to come up with something else.

[articulett]

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

Dogs are faithful, loyal, and don't start wars, and they have no gods. Morals evolve--you get your morals via eons of ancestors evolving to be social animals. Everyone does...even if they think they get them from Zeus, Allah, or the FSM.

[articulett]

Yes, tell him that you definitely don't get your morals from the bible--you'd never punish your daughter and all her decendents for eternity for apple eating...

And if you heard an invisible entity telling you to kill your kid (ala Abraham)to prove your faith, you'd go to a psychiatrist.

[CurtC]

And if you heard an invisible entity telling you to kill your kid (ala Abraham)to prove your faith, you'd go to a psychiatrist.
Or worse, ala Jephthah. At least Abraham stopped short - Jephthah followed through (Judges 11).

[Sleepy]

People above have already mentioned empathy, but anyway...

1. Empathy. I don't like seeing people be wronged or suffering needlessly. My sense of (in)justice goes crazy.

2. Self esteem. I want to have the qualities I most value in others. Loyalty, honesty, integrity, compassion, etc. Cheating or hurting someone else makes me feel terrible. I'm usually smart enough to know what the right action is, and doing it lets me keep smiling. :)

3. Enlightened self-interest. Being good to people builds social capital and strong relationships. A stable family, community, society and world is essential to my interests, so even altruistic deeds pay dividends. Helping the unfortunate increases their capacity to help others in turn, leading to a kind of good-will domino effect.

--

Compressed into easily digestible sound bites:

Your honor, I've learned by experience, observation and contemplation that:
* what goes around comes around
* my good reputation is a priceless asset
* doing the right thing is emotionally/financially/you name it more rewarding than doing the wrong thing

I dunno if pointing out that atheists in general are far less criminalistic and overall better people than non-atheists would go down too well. Pity.

I hope your judge is secretly an atheist too. I think judges have to play the political game to become/stay judges so publicly professing atheism is out, but anyone with a tertiary education is somewhat more likely to be an atheist anyway.

[osmosis]

Richard Carrier's Sense & Goodness Without God, is a fine book on the subject of atheist morality. I highly recommend it.

[articulett]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

(but three lefts do)

---Two Wrights made an airplane.

[Dunstan]

For those of you wondering whether a judge can really consider this, you might be interested in reading this blog post (http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_08_28-2005_09_03.shtml#1125441647)

The post references an upcoming law review article; the article deals with more than just the atheism issue, but that section is easily found at the beginning of the article, with case citations and summaries. The article is here (http://www.law.nyu.edu/journals/lawreview/issues/vol81/no2/NYU203.pdf)

[Jackalgirl]

For those of you wondering whether a judge can really consider this, you might be interested in reading this blog post (http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_08_28-2005_09_03.shtml)

Which part of that page talks about a judge rendering judgement regarding custody based on the religion (or lack thereof) of one or both of the parents? I'm sorry, I honestly don't mean to sound sharp or anything, I'm just not seeing the post. Most of the entries on that page seem to be about Hurricane Katrina-related issues (plus a dabbling of other things, like Rudy Guiliani, circumcision, etc). Could you point me to a paragraph? Thanks!

[Dunstan]

Which part of that page talks about a judge rendering judgement regarding custody based on the religion (or lack thereof) of one or both of the parents? I'm sorry, I honestly don't mean to sound sharp or anything, I'm just not seeing the post. Most of the entries on that page seem to be about Hurricane Katrina-related issues (plus a dabbling of other things, like Rudy Guiliani, circumcision, etc). Could you point me to a paragraph? Thanks!

No, you're right -- my link was to the archives for that month, and the actual post is about 2/3 of the way down the page, titled "Parent-Child Speech and Child Custody Speech Restrictions"

But I think this link (http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_08_28-2005_09_03.shtml#1125441647) should take you to the post in question.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Ceritus]

So, Ceritus....


Any more news???

Nope still waiting for the Action. My lawyer told me that he told her that it will happen sometime next week now. This is ridiculous.

[Piggy]

Nope still waiting for the Action. My lawyer told me that he told her that it will happen sometime next week now. This is ridiculous.

Hmmm.... Sounds familiar. A buddy of mine was busted awhile back when cops responded to a domestic disturbance report, questioned him and his girlfriend in his yard, said there were reports that a child might be in danger, entered his house without his permission, and found something in her purse, which was on the night stand in his bedroom. (I reckon they thought an endangered child might be in there, hiding behind the Kleenex.)

His attorney moved to have the charges against him tossed out. (She fled to Florida -- smart girl. :rolleyes: )

The judge said he'd need to think about it. And he thought about it for 3 months.

[Molinaro]

I would be inclined to see it as a good sign that a quick answer was not given.

It wouldn't take much time for a judge to come out and say, "No visitation for you!"

I would guess that he is taking time to formulate an appropriate visitation schedule.

Best of luck to you.

[Ceritus]

Update! The Order came in today, I get visitation rights EVERY weekend and one other day per week that we can agree upon if no agreement is made it will be Wed! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!!

[jon]

That's great news - congratulations :D

[DiskoVilante]

Nice. I'm gald you won Ceritus.

[tkingdoll]

Excellent news, wishing you and your little 'un all the best :)

[Miss Anthrope]

Update! The Order came in today, I get visitation rights EVERY weekend and one other day per week that we can agree upon if no agreement is made it will be Wed! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!!

Awesome news for both you and the baby! Congrats, this was the RIGHT decision.

[Tanstaafl]

Congrats, you handled this great!

[articulett]

Fantastic. And thanks for catching us up. You and your daughter are fortunate.

[Withnail]

First thing you do is say, "Hey, thanks for noticing that I have good morals. It makes me feel good that even a lawyer can see my moral strength. Now, what was the question again?"

Err, if it ever comes up again

[Beerina]

You mentioned you said you'd take her to church if she wanted. Since you have her weekends, you may have to do this. If it's a big deal to the mom, the mom may prompt her daughter to ask you to do this. I have no idea if this is a dynamic with the mother, but keep it in mind.

[SezMe]

Way to go you immoral sinner! :) :) :)

[Slimething]

:yahoo WAY TO GO! MUCH HAPPINESS! :yahoo

[Jackalgirl]

Yay! Congrats! : )

[skeptigirl]

:bgrin: :fg: :th: :yahoo :scorgi :bigclap :cheerleader1 :cheerleader2 :cheerleader3 :cheerleader4 :cheerleader5 :bounce2 :wave1 :eusa_dance: :Banane35: :Banane57: :Banane44: :Banane08: :talk008: :xmas0663


I'm very happy for you and your daughter. :D

[Taffer]

W00t! Way to go!

[EternalSceptic]

Update! The Order came in today, I get visitation rights EVERY weekend and one other day per week that we can agree upon if no agreement is made it will be Wed! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!!

My warmest congratulations.

But:

You will face quite a challenge now. The child is the midpoint of all this. Now you have the right to have her part of the time and your ex has the right for the other part. What will you do with that right, and what will your ex do?

Try to pull the child on your/her side? Pullig into opposite directions may easily stretch, twist or otherwise spoil the childs mind. You will have to be very clever, as well as sensitive to master this in the future.

I wish you and your daughter and your ex the best for the future, even more than I wished you for winnig at the court.

[JC Fla]

Congrats. It is hard to beat skeptigirls display...:) I hope for all the best for you and your daughter. I know where you are coming from.

Fill that little girls head with science, math and reason, and you will have a budding little skeptic and rational thinker in no time!

[athon]

I've only just read this thread all the way through.

First of all, I honestly could not imagine a court in Australia tolerating such a question. I'm blown away by the idea that it could even be taken seriously.

Secondly, congratulations on two things - your clear, cool and well phrased response, and the response in your favour.

Your little girl is lucky to have a role model like you. :)

Athon

[Orangutan]

:bgrin: :fg: :th: :yahoo :scorgi :bigclap :cheerleader1 :cheerleader2 :cheerleader3 :cheerleader4 :cheerleader5 :bounce2 :wave1 :eusa_dance: :Banane35: :Banane57: :Banane44: :Banane08: :talk008: :xmas0663


I'm very happy for you and your daughter. :D

What the hell is this? Rapture Ready?

Seriously though, Congrats Ceritus, and well done for sticking to what you believe in.

Ok, I give in... :yahoo

[SimonD]

Update! The Order came in today, I get visitation rights EVERY weekend and one other day per week that we can agree upon if no agreement is made it will be Wed! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!!

Good for you, Ceritus!:)

You should try to go for a Monday or Friday, IMHO

[John Hewitt]

Good for you, Ceritus!:)

You should try to go for a Monday or Friday, IMHO

Ceritus, hi - I just read this thread for the first time and I am genuinely delighted for you - though I could not possibly express it as dramatically as did Skeptigirl.

I would like to add that I have seen visitation situations from both sides and I am not only delighted but also a little surprised that the judge gave you so much time with your daughter. Every single weekend, for the whole weekend, might well make social things difficult both for her mother and for yourself.

Darwin's moral approach was based on the golden rule, "do as you would be done by" and I know of no serious religious community who do not, in public, subscribe to that same position. I think that, for these visitations to work, both your ex-partner and yourself will need to "do as you would have them do" and be flexible and considerate of the other's needs. In the interests of your shared daughter, I hope you will both try to do that.



.

[Piggy]

You will face quite a challenge now. The child is the midpoint of all this. Now you have the right to have her part of the time and your ex has the right for the other part. What will you do with that right, and what will your ex do?

Try to pull the child on your/her side? Pullig into opposite directions may easily stretch, twist or otherwise spoil the childs mind. You will have to be very clever, as well as sensitive to master this in the future.

Seconded. As someone who's been there, in some pretty sh*tty circumstances, I can tell you this -- no matter what's going on, you gotta keep in mind that your child has the love of angels for her parents... no matter what they feel for one another between themselves.

As hard as it may be sometimes, when you're dealing w/ your kid, never forget that her mom, to her, is not your ex wife. To her, her mom is her one and only mother, the only one she'll ever have.

Just keeping that in mind may be one of the best things you'll ever do for her.

[Ceritus]

I know it is going to be rough especially given the relationship my ex ( my daughter's mother) and I have but I plan on being the best dad that I can be. Which involves me not trying to pull my daughter away from her mother. I will do my best to educate her in all the aspects of life that I can. The last thing she needs is an even larger wedge between her mom and her dad.

I am trying to keep it as civil as possible for her sake. I won't lie I'm scared. I also know my ex is willing to do anything to hurt me and I try to talk to her to make our relationship better for our daughter's sake but I believe she is far to selfish for that sadly.

It'll be a very interesting ride this new chapter of ours.

I can only hope her mother matures over time and is able to see it is about Elizabeth and not herself.

[Ceritus]

:bgrin: :fg: :th: :yahoo :scorgi :bigclap :cheerleader1 :cheerleader2 :cheerleader3 :cheerleader4 :cheerleader5 :bounce2 :wave1 :eusa_dance: :Banane35: :Banane57: :Banane44: :Banane08: :talk008: :xmas0663


I'm very happy for you and your daughter. :D



lol thanks! I almost has a seizure!!!!! j/k :)

[Slimething]

:bgrin: :fg: :th: :yahoo :scorgi :bigclap :cheerleader1 :cheerleader2 :cheerleader3 :cheerleader4 :cheerleader5 :bounce2 :wave1 :eusa_dance: :Banane35: :Banane57: :Banane44: :Banane08: :talk008: :xmas0663


I'm very happy for you and your daughter. :D

Can this be nominated? It sums up the moment perfectly!
http://forums.randi.org/images/smilies/Toadstool%20Emoticons%20v2/biggrin.gif http://forums.randi.org/images/smilies/wacky%20emotions/yes.gifhttp://forums.randi.org/images/smilies/wacky%20emoticons%20addon%20pack/notworthy.gifhttp://forums.randi.org/images/smilies/Wacky%20Emoticons%20-%20Addon%20Pack%203/jiggy.gif:czagree::bananalama:

That is a lot of fun, isn't it?

[Piggy]

I know it is going to be rough especially given the relationship my ex ( my daughter's mother) and I have but I plan on being the best dad that I can be. Which involves me not trying to pull my daughter away from her mother. I will do my best to educate her in all the aspects of life that I can. The last thing she needs is an even larger wedge between her mom and her dad.

I am trying to keep it as civil as possible for her sake. I won't lie I'm scared. I also know my ex is willing to do anything to hurt me and I try to talk to her to make our relationship better for our daughter's sake but I believe she is far to selfish for that sadly.

Now I have an adult's perspective on what my folks were going through. I don't blame them anymore. They had it rougher than I could imagine, because my world did not yet contain the kind of pain they knew. And to be fair, I know now they had probably forgotten the kind of pain I felt at the time, which even for me is now distant and distorted.

But, if it can be of any help, I'll say this.

One day, your daughter, too, will have that perspective. But it's going to be a long road of days til that time comes. And yeah, you're the one who's going to have to walk it.

But you know, the hours and the days pass so much slower for a child. A year is an eternity. Time speeds up on us as we age. So however long the road feels to you, it will feel much longer to your daughter's short steps.

It will be easier for you to keep your perspective, no matter how difficult that is. Don't forget that.

And if you show her the example of love, forgiveness, and understanding -- not just for her, but for her mother, too -- when she comes of age, she will respect you for it, for as long as you both live. And her heart will not have to search itself for the strength to forgive you simply for the simple human faults that we all are heir to, and which she was not capable of knowing when her tender heart became hardened, as mine did.

If what you say is true, yes, you're in for a hard time. The manipulation will raise your hackles, not so much for your sake (because you can handle it) but because the string being pulled is your lovely daughter, who you love more than life. Yeah, it's a cliche, I know. True one, though. Some cliches are like that.

Do what you need to do when it's you and your ex. Say what you need to say. But in front of your daughter, the magic words are these: "Your mother loves you very much, and she's doing what she thinks is best."

One day, your daughter will be a grown woman. And in that day, she will then be able to look back and decide for herself whether what her mother -- and you, too -- thought was best... was really best.

Keep your mind on that day.

[Bud Fox]

I would have thought an appeal to Moral Philosophy may have been a good approach to discuss the question of morality and Atheism. Perhaps you could have started with a dismantling of Divine Command Theory, and then get into Categorical Imperatives....:p

[Jeff Corey]

I know it is going to be rough especially given the relationship my ex ( my daughter's mother) and I have but I plan on being the best dad that I can be. Which involves me not trying to pull my daughter away from her mother. I will do my best to educate her in all the aspects of life that I can. The last thing she needs is an even larger wedge between her mom and her dad.

I am trying to keep it as civil as possible for her sake. I won't lie I'm scared. I also know my ex is willing to do anything to hurt me and I try to talk to her to make our relationship better for our daughter's sake but I believe she is far to selfish for that sadly.

It'll be a very interesting ride this new chapter of ours.

I can only hope her mother matures over time and is able to see it is about Elizabeth and not herself.
That worked for me. I never bad mouthed the X, even though I knew ++it was coming from the other side. Most times, the kids will eventually understand the truth of the matter.

[skeptigirl]

Thanks. It did come out rather colorful.

[Mom persona] Be polite, be on time and forget about your ex once you close the door (or get in the car). Anger builds when you are in contact and fades when you aren't. And kids don't want to go home and they don't want to go with you. That was an important lesson for me. Kids are happy once they get where they are going, but the change over is stressful. They sometimes act out but it isn't because there is something bad about the other parent.

And you said this was an infant. Be prepared for the transition. When my son was 4 months and went to his first day care, he went a full 8 hours refusing his bottle. Just normal behavior. If you have an experienced parent around to help, that would be a tremendous benefit. The baby is going to have to get to know you and you can expect a lot of crying until she does.

If the baby is already in day care, keeping her a longer visit time should be fine. But if she hasn't been away from Mom, let the first few visits be shorter and get longer each time. Tell you ex that is the plan. It will be a lot easier transition.

Oh, yeah, it's really true that 18 years goes by real fast. Make the most of it. [/Mom persona]

[skeptigirl]

That worked for me. I never bad mouthed the X, even though I knew ++it was coming from the other side. Most times, the kids will eventually understand the truth of the matter.My ex used to say about his ex's complaints to the kids about him that, "kids figure it out". We never said anything about her in front of the kids.

Of course my neighbors ex told the kids if Dad did anything they didn't like to call 911. And they did when they had to go to bed. It was quite a scene. Cops figure it out too.

[The Great Hairy One]

Congrats, Ceritus, on the result. Hopefully you and your ex can come to an amicable arrangement.


First of all, I honestly could not imagine a court in Australia tolerating such a question.


It wouldn't be asked from the point of view that "atheists are immoral", rather whether or not the child would be exposed to two different religious views. I personally know of two cases where parents divorced and were different religions, and the topic of religion came up in the divorce court, but the angle was "please make sure the children are exposed to both" or something along those lines.

Cheers,
TGHO