US Nuclear Weapons On Hair-Trigger Alert

[Jedi Knight]

....they have to be. The reason? Uncivilized diversity. You see, diversity is that nice little catch-word that all Americans have been brainwashed to bow to whenever a politician or pseudo-politican at the UN brings it up.

"Diversity" is anything that is not American. That is the way you have to look at the UN definition of "diversity". Diversity is not something tangible that you can wrap your arms around embrace because it is something you want to get up close and personal with. No, that is not diversity.

UN "diversity" is anything that harms the United States and leftists in America who condition young people to respect "diversity" are brainwashing them to respect "uncivilized diversity".

North Korea with nuclear weapons is uncivilized diversity. The anti-American protection of Saddam Hussein is uncivilized diversity.

Diversity is a lie when 1/2 of the world's population is taught by the UN to hate America. It is uncivilized diversity.

That is why American nuclear weapons are on hair-trigger alert. One misstep and hundreds of thousands--millions of people will die. One simple miscommunication, one misstep, one bad interpretation of the facts, means nuclear war.

The only reason why there was never a nuclear war with US weapons up until this point is because the United States was civil. Russia, even though it was a communist state of utmost evil because communism is the greatest perversion of darkness in the history of mankind (not PC), refrained from using nuclear weapons because they knew we would completely devastate their country with our submarine-based nuclear weapons. There was civility there, regardless of ideology.

Now it is different. Now we have radical states like Pakistan, Iraq, Iran and North Korea building nuclear weapons because they want to use them. The US built them not to use them, but to use them as a deterrent. The other countries are building them to use them. They do not believe in deterrence.

That is why American nuclear weapons are on hair-trigger alert.

It is uncivilized diversity. You can listen to the talking heads on leftist media outlets like CNN tell everyone to "respect" "everyone" because that is "diversity", but no, that is not "diversity".

For diversity to be respected it must also accompany civility. For diversity to be credible, it must also promote deterrence.

Islamic states like Iran and Iraq are not civil. North Korea is not civil. Respecting them, per UN demand, is illogical. There is no "diversity" to respect in those places because they have no respect for themselves and certainly no respect for anyone else. That is uncivilized diversity.

That is also why American nuclear weapons are on hair-trigger alert.

I think it is great that the truth about the commie UN is now finally coming to light. The UN is not an ally of America--they are impotent followers of "uncivilized diversity". No American should even give any level of credibility to the backwards UN and their uncivilized diversity agenda.

If human beings get together to build nuclear bombs to detonate them in American cities in the name of some deity named "Allah", that is not "diversity". That is asking for war. Americans will come to your country to bring that war to you.

That is why American nuclear weapons are on hair-trigger alert. Americans cannot be deceived by the lie called "diversity".

JK

[The Fool]

Ok folks, the troll has laid the bait. Who is going to bite?

Jedi was beaten up in all his other troll threads yesterday, he needs this thread as a diversion and a fresh start.

[Regnad Kcin]

You know, my favorite sandwich of all time has to be the Fluffernutter. I can still recite the theme song by heart!

Oh you need Fluff, Fluff, Fluff
To make a Fluffernutter.
Marshmallow Fluff
And lots of peanut butter.

I could go for one right now!

[crackmonkey]

In all honesty, can't you see that the Fluffernutter is but a pale imitation of the ineffable PBJ? Grape jelly. Peanut butter. Ecstasy.

[Reginald]

He sat there, the combat knife in his hand, digging the words into the floorboards. The ash from his cigarette, falling in neglected lumps to the floor.

The words he had carved a thousand times while he waited.....

"I'll make everyone pay".

[Blue Monk]

(yawn)

[corplinx]

My backpack's got jets
I'm Boba, the Fett
I bounty hunt
for Jabba Hutt
to finance... My Vette


-from Fett's Vette by Mc Chris

[Starshark]

Cripes, I've lost my wallet. Has anyone seen it? I though I left it on the kitchen bench.

[Starshark]

D'oh! It was in my back pocket the whole time. :o

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
You know, my favorite sandwich of all time has to be the Fluffernutter. I can still recite the theme song by heart!

Oh you need Fluff, Fluff, Fluff
To make a Fluffernutter.
Marshmallow Fluff
And lots of peanut butter.

I could go for one right now!

I love Fluff girls!!! Oh, Fluffemutter. Nevermind.

[The Fool]

Is it true that if you close your eyes you can pick up hot things without being burnt? I read this somewhere.....

[Crossbow]

Hi,

do you want to get to know the hottest teens ever?

Then check out our new private website.
Hundreds of livecams , thousands of high quality pictures and movies are available.
Also we have Liveshows, Spycams, Stripshows.
You can chat with us in 10 different languages!

Visit us at:

[URL]

Bye,

Jenny

[Starshark]

Got a question about Colorectal surgery? Why not visit ButtCandle, Inc (http://buttcandle.com/index.cgi?op=References)? It's your one-stop shop for all your colon questions.

A message from the Community Offering Care, Kindness and Support Until Colons Kindly Expurge Regularly.

[Goshawk]

<< takes out super-size hypodermic needle and injects some facts into the thread >>
<< from somewhere, a scream of agony >>Pakistan...Iraq...Iran...North Korea... That is why American nuclear weapons are on hair-trigger alert.Um, no, actually, the reason why American nuclear weapons are still on full alert is because of Russia. And China, just a little.

http://backfromthebrink.org/
http://backfromthebrink.org/factsheets/

http://www.cdi.org/issues/proliferation/blairnytimes6.12.00.html
And Russia is not our missiles' only target. Responding to the 1997 presidential guidance, the Pentagon put China back into the strategic plan after a hiatus of about 20 years. For China, we now have two so-called limited attack options, involving a handful of nuclear weapons on submarines and bombers, for striking nuclear targets, leadership sites and critical industries. Compare this with scores of limited attack options against Russia, each using from a handful of weapons to more than 100, as well as a few major attack options, the smallest of which would send more than 1,000 strategic warheads to attack Russia's nuclear complex.

There are also many hundreds of secondary targets in China, Iran, Iraq and North Korea that have weapons assigned to them, though not on immediate alert, further driving up the size of the arsenal. [emphasis added] Most of our nukes are pointed at Russian targets. Russia's the country with the 50 years' worth of nukes stockpiled. By comparison, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, and North Korea get "secondary" assignments, and they're not on "hairtrigger alert".

And anyway, Pakistan's got no beef with us, and they've got their nukes pointed at India, not us. Why would they be firing off a nuke at us?

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/pakistan/nuke/

And Iran says they don't even have any nuclear weapons, just nuclear power plants, and aside from not generally liking us very much, they don't have any particular beef with us. Why would they fire a nuke at us?

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/nuke/

And since neither Pakistan nor Iran are currently headed by insane dictators, if they aren't happy with the U.S., they can, and do, make their displeasure felt through diplomatic channels. They don't seem to see a need to push the big red button.

Now, Korea. There isn't any proof that North Korea even has nukes, let alone nukes that could reach an American city.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/

Ditto for Iraq. No proof of nukes.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/nuke/

So you're worrying for nothing.

Now, supposing that one of these Third World countries, for whatever reason, and assuming that they had the capability, did decide to fire off a few nukes towards America, I think that your scenario--
One misstep and hundreds of thousands--millions of people will die. One simple miscommunication, one misstep, one bad interpretation of the facts, means nuclear war.--sounds a little bit, well, hysterical. It sounds like leftover "domino theory" Cold War rhetoric.

I can't see all-out worldwide nuclear war resulting from, say, North Korea's taking out part of Washington, even if they could. If North Korea did fire off a nuke towards D.C., what I see happening immediately afterwards is not North Korea being blasted back into the Stone Age by Strategic Air Command, but just a lot of talking heads doing a lot of hand-wringing, before deciding what to do. It would probably involve the UN.

And I don't think the decision of "what to do" would involve retaliatory nukes. Because the nukes that are pointed at North Korea aren't on "hairtrigger alert", so there would be time to discuss what the official response would be. And, again, it would probably involve the UN.

Now, there's the National Missile Defense system, or "Star Wars", which designed to take out "rogue nations" such as Iraq or Korea, who might send a few missiles our way. Just one problem, though--NMD doesn't exist, except on paper. Bush asked for more funding for it in the budget, but so far...

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/nmd/
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/02/03/budget.highlights.reut/index.html

If you're really worried about full-scale nuclear war, JK, why don't you go join BFB, get on their mailing list, send them some money?

[Jon_in_london]

What do you want to give him an enema for! it might bite him!

[Vorticity]

Ahem. Unrelated, but:
Originally posted by JK
"The House Unamerican Activities Commission (HUAC, know as the "Truth Commission")."

-completely made-up "fact" from JK, here: http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13368&pagenumber=4

Just a reminder. Any reference for the above?
Now back to the regularly scheduled lunacy...

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Goshawk
<< takes out super-size hypodermic needle and injects some facts into the thread >>
<< from somewhere, a scream of agony >>Um, no, actually, the reason why American nuclear weapons are still on full alert is because of Russia. And China, just a little.

http://backfromthebrink.org/
http://backfromthebrink.org/factsheets/

http://www.cdi.org/issues/proliferation/blairnytimes6.12.00.html
Most of our nukes are pointed at Russian targets. Russia's the country with the 50 years' worth of nukes stockpiled. By comparison, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, and North Korea get "secondary" assignments, and they're not on "hairtrigger alert".

And anyway, Pakistan's got no beef with us, and they've got their nukes pointed at India, not us. Why would they be firing off a nuke at us?

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/pakistan/nuke/

And Iran says they don't even have any nuclear weapons, just nuclear power plants, and aside from not generally liking us very much, they don't have any particular beef with us. Why would they fire a nuke at us?

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/nuke/

And since neither Pakistan nor Iran are currently headed by insane dictators, if they aren't happy with the U.S., they can, and do, make their displeasure felt through diplomatic channels. They don't seem to see a need to push the big red button.

Now, Korea. There isn't any proof that North Korea even has nukes, let alone nukes that could reach an American city.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/

Ditto for Iraq. No proof of nukes.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/nuke/

So you're worrying for nothing.

Now, supposing that one of these Third World countries, for whatever reason, and assuming that they had the capability, did decide to fire off a few nukes towards America, I think that your scenario--
--sounds a little bit, well, hysterical. It sounds like leftover "domino theory" Cold War rhetoric.

I can't see all-out worldwide nuclear war resulting from, say, North Korea's taking out part of Washington, even if they could. If North Korea did fire off a nuke towards D.C., what I see happening immediately afterwards is not North Korea being blasted back into the Stone Age by Strategic Air Command, but just a lot of talking heads doing a lot of hand-wringing, before deciding what to do. It would probably involve the UN.

And I don't think the decision of "what to do" would involve retaliatory nukes. Because the nukes that are pointed at North Korea aren't on "hairtrigger alert", so there would be time to discuss what the official response would be. And, again, it would probably involve the UN.

Now, there's the National Missile Defense system, or "Star Wars", which designed to take out "rogue nations" such as Iraq or Korea, who might send a few missiles our way. Just one problem, though--NMD doesn't exist, except on paper. Bush asked for more funding for it in the budget, but so far...

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/nmd/
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/02/03/budget.highlights.reut/index.html

If you're really worried about full-scale nuclear war, JK, why don't you go join BFB, get on their mailing list, send them some money? [/B]

Oh, you have got it all wrong. I am very pleased that we have nuclear weapons on hair-trigger alert. I think nuclear weapons serve a very important purpose and the United States should use them. I am not against nuclear weapons in any form. They are the proof that we, as a country, are willing to go all the way to defend ourselves.

Since you seem to be pretty knowlegeable of FAS's work, link a few pages that show me:

1) FAS knew about the 9/11 attacks before they happened.
2) FAS has proof that North Korea does not have nuclear weapons.
3) FAS has proof that Iran does not have nuclear weapons.
4) FAS has proof that North Korea's new Taepodong II missile can't reach the United States.
5) That the United States knew that it would be attacked by the Japanese empire on December 7th, 1941, a key trait of Asian historic war doctrine.
6) Any opinion by any member of FAS that the North Koreans will not use the same deception strategy as the Japanese against the United States.

Looking forward to reading FAS pages on these topics.

JK

[Goshawk]

Okay, well, I guess that answers that question. I wondered whether you would come back with something halfway sensible, and I see that you haven't. So now I know.Since you seem to be pretty knowlegeable of FAS's work, link a few pages that show me...How on earth is any of that relevant to anything that's going on either in your OP, or in my response to it? 1) FAS knew about the 9/11 attacks before they happened.And especially how in the world is a 9/11 conspiracy theory relevant?2) FAS has proof that North Korea does not have nuclear weapons.
3) FAS has proof that Iran does not have nuclear weapons.Fact: It is not up to the people who say that North Korea and Iran do not have nukes to prove that they do not have nukes--it is up to the people who say that they DO have nukes to prove that they DO have nukes. This is the same way that it's not up to the people who say there are no such things as ghosts to prove that there are no such things as ghosts--it is up to the people who say that there ARE such things as ghosts to prove that ghosts exist.

This is such a basic principle of James Randi and his website devoted to fighting bunkum that I find myself wondering why you're here. FAS has proof that North Korea's new Taepodong II missile can't reach the United StatesAgain, how is the FAS relevant here? Why is it up to the FAS to prove that the Taepodong can't reach the U.S.? Funny, all it took me was about 10 seconds with Google.

FTR, the Taepodong missile has a range of 6,000 km, which would allow it to reach Alaska or Hawaii. BFD. Kim Jung gets pissed and Anchorage is toast... :rolleyes:

http://www.adn.com/front/story/2439894p-2487746c.html
North Korea's long-range missile, nuclear arms up the ante for Alaska
CLOSE EYE: State is first U.S. land that North Korea could hit, defense official says

By Tom Kizzia
Anchorage Daily News

(Published: January 10, 2003)

While the nuclear standoff between the United States and North Korea galvanizes international attention, Alaskans may be forgiven for taking a somewhat parochial interest.

Alaska's special concern has to do with the range of the Taepodong-2 missile believed to be under development by the North Korean government. The most common U.S. and South Korean military estimates of the two-stage missile's maximum range is about 6,000 kilometers -- 3,700 miles -- the distance from Pyongyang to Anchorage.Why don't you provide some proof that North Korea even has any functioning Taepodong missiles? All I can find is references to the one test shot, back in 1998. One test flight does not an armament make.

http://cns.miis.edu/research/korea/overview.htm

Why don't you be the one to go find some cites proving that North Korea has a whole bunch of these all made up and ready to shoot? Funny, I would think that Colin Powell would have been able to find those, too, and the whole "do they/don't they" discussion all over CNN would be moot. If he doesn't know how to use a search engine, surely he would have people to do that for him.
5) That the United States knew that it would be attacked by the Japanese empire on December 7th, 1941, a key trait of Asian historic war doctrine.
6) Any opinion by any member of FAS that the North Koreans will not use the same deception strategy as the Japanese against the United States.And again, these are both so completely irrelevant that the mind boggles. How do conspiracy theories about Pearl Harbor and 9/11 have anything to do with your OP? Other than illustrating how far you've bought into the "Evil Inscrutable Asians--we must destroy them before they destroy us!" mindset.

Right. I'm outta here. I'll check back to see if you've got some cites on the North Korean nukes.

[hal bidlack]

Just to be clear here, out nuclear weapons are not on a "hair trigger alert" and never have been. I spent the first 5 years of my career in the AF as an ICBM launch officer, and know how it works. I'll spare you the details, but to suggest we are on a hair trigger is to suggest we are in an unstable position. The ICBM force, the SLBM and the AC force are all staffed by very professional men and women, who do their job very well.

We are able to rapidly counter any attack on the US, but that is, I think, a different concept than "hair trigger alert."

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by hal bidlack
Just to be clear here, out nuclear weapons are not on a "hair trigger alert" and never have been. I spent the first 5 years of my career in the AF as an ICBM launch officer, and know how it works. I'll spare you the details, but to suggest we are on a hair trigger is to suggest we are in an unstable position. The ICBM force, the SLBM and the AC force are all staffed by very professional men and women, who do their job very well.

We are able to rapidly counter any attack on the US, but that is, I think, a different concept than "hair trigger alert."

Are you implying that JK is talking out of his posterior?

Some mistake surely...........

[Crossbow]

Is is possible for logic to counter the dark forces of of JK wisdom?

Nope!

Oh wait a moment, that was a rather hasty answer and I should really reconsider.

OK, I have a new answer.

Nope! The powers of logic and fact are not powerful enough to counter the highly developed self-delusion engine powered by JK gas fumes.

:p

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Goshawk
Okay, well, I guess that answers that question. I wondered whether you would come back with something halfway sensible, and I see that you haven't. So now I know.How on earth is any of that relevant to anything that's going on either in your OP, or in my response to it? [/b]And especially how in the world is a 9/11 conspiracy theory relevant?[/b]Fact: It is not up to the people who say that North Korea and Iran do not have nukes to prove that they do not have nukes--it is up to the people who say that they DO have nukes to prove that they DO have nukes. This is the same way that it's not up to the people who say there are no such things as ghosts to prove that there are no such things as ghosts--it is up to the people who say that there ARE such things as ghosts to prove that ghosts exist.

This is such a basic principle of James Randi and his website devoted to fighting bunkum that I find myself wondering why you're here.[/b]Again, how is the FAS relevant here? Why is it up to the FAS to prove that the Taepodong can't reach the U.S.? Funny, all it took me was about 10 seconds with Google.

FTR, the Taepodong missile has a range of 6,000 km, which would allow it to reach Alaska or Hawaii. BFD. Kim Jung gets pissed and Anchorage is toast... :rolleyes:

http://www.adn.com/front/story/2439894p-2487746c.html
Why don't you provide some proof that North Korea even has any functioning Taepodong missiles? All I can find is references to the one test shot, back in 1998. One test flight does not an armament make.

http://cns.miis.edu/research/korea/overview.htm

Why don't you be the one to go find some cites proving that North Korea has a whole bunch of these all made up and ready to shoot? Funny, I would think that Colin Powell would have been able to find those, too, and the whole "do they/don't they" discussion all over CNN would be moot. If he doesn't know how to use a search engine, surely he would have people to do that for him.
[/b]And again, these are both so completely irrelevant that the mind boggles. How do conspiracy theories about Pearl Harbor and 9/11 have anything to do with your OP? Other than illustrating how far you've bought into the "Evil Inscrutable Asians--we must destroy them before they destroy us!" mindset.

Right. I'm outta here. I'll check back to see if you've got some cites on the North Korean nukes. [/B]

I am not asking you to post conspiracy theories. I am asing you to link FAS information where FAS members provide information about the topics I asked.

Since FAS apparently doesn't have that information, I can only conclude that it would be naive to dismiss the possibility that North Korea has nuclear weapons, that Iran has them and that North Korea has the ability to send some into the US mainland.

I respect FAS, but they do not think out of the box enough. There was no information provided by FAS that warned of the September 11 attacks. Nothing. There was nothing from FAS that suggested India might detonate a nuclear weapon in a weapon test prior to India doing it several years ago. So using that logic, it is a "conspiracy theory" to question states who enrich uranium, move fuel rods around, test intercontinental ballistic missiles, etc. It is a conspiracy theory until they actually detonate a nuclear bomb. Then it becomes a fact page at FAS that says: "North Korea has nuclear weapons".

I do not agree with that logic.

The point is that you use FAS information to convince me not to "worry" about nuclear weapons being used--nothing provided by FAS can be used. FAS uses information that is generally public and easy to acquire--but that does not negate the real threat from roque states and what they may really possess, nor does it dismiss the historic tendency for some of those states (Korea comes to mind) to surprise-attack other countries it finds in its national interests to do so.

In sum, I believe that your use of "conspiracy theories" only applies to critical thinking and that when there is an attack like 9/11, or potentially a nuclear attack against the US, you will say it was "impossible" to know beforehand because only a "select" group that you like to link webpages to didn't "announce" it first.

If FAS is so good, why didn't they know about 9/11? Why do they ignore Asian military culture proven in history (spectacular surprise attacks)? Why didn't they know about the Indian nuclear tests if they are so hip on nuclear weapons devlopment?

That is all I am saying. If you use a source, at least try to allow some critical thinking at the same time. 9/11 happened. It was not a conspiracy. The Jap surprise attack on Pearl Harbor happened, it was not a conspiracy. It is naive to ignore history and think that nuclear technology isn't proliferating much, much more than it already has. These countries know that US policy will not respect them unless they have nukes. That is why all the Islamic and Asian states are seeking to acquire them.

Then you said: FTR, the Taepodong missile has a range of 6,000 km, which would allow it to reach Alaska or Hawaii. BFD. Kim Jung gets pissed and Anchorage is toast...

I am not talking about the Taepodong I. I am talking about the enhanced Taepodong II. You can think that a nuclear weapon hitting Hawaii or Alaska is no big deal, but I bet that North Korea has an infatuation with LA, San Fran and Seattle. If a country is infatuated with a military target, do they put resources into their ability to strike it?

JK

[Aardvark_DK]

Could we get back on topic, please? Allow me to guide you:

It is my considered opinion that butter improves the taste of a honey sandwich. There, I've said it.

[Vorticity]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK
It is my considered opinion that butter improves the taste of a honey sandwich. There, I've said it.
That's just wrong, you freak. When JK is in power, your sort will be the first to go.

[Goshawk]

I am not talking about the Taepodong I. I am talking about the enhanced Taepodong II. There is no such thing as an "enhanced" Taepodong II missile. If you think there is, please provide a cite. Here are mine. All I can find is baseless speculation, guesses, theories. But nothing like, say, actual "evidence". Or "proof" that such a thing exists on Planet Earth.

http://www.house.gov/donyoung/press/p19990728_1.htm
July 28, 1999
THE NORTH KOREAN MISSILE ROAD: THE DESTABILIZING PATH
An Editorial Opinion by Congressman Don Young

As North Korea seems to be making preparations for another missile launch, the United States is in a difficult position with it’s policy in East Asia. Whatever, North Korea is hoping to achieve by launching another missile in the near future, North Korea has placed many Asian countries in difficult political and military positions while awaiting the actions and the ensuing International response from a possible missile launch.

North Korea has indicated that it may test an enhanced and sophisticated Taepodong-2 missile, a missile that may have the ability to reach as far as Alaska, and possibly the west coast of the United States. This is not the first time North Korea has escalated relations between it’s regional neighbors. During August 1998, North Korea fired a three-stage Taepodong-1, that flew across the northern tip of Japan’s main island. The three-stage missile was the first North Korea had successfully fired.http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/engl288.06/webprojects/finalproject/mcm29/Washpost2.html
Copyright 1999 The Washington Post
The Washington Post

September 13, 1999, Monday, Final Edition

...Although North Korean officials said nothing publicly to interpret the pledge, Western diplomats familiar with the talks said that, while it fell short of a treaty-level commitment, North Korea acknowledged that any further missile tests would run counter to its promise not to do anything to damage relations with the United States.

As a result, they said, the accord seemed to go a long way toward easing tensions created by Pyongyang's plans to test the Taepodong II, an advanced and longer-range model of a missile that caused alarms across the region when it was test-fired over Japan a year ago.

"There has been a strong concern about an imminent test," said a senior U.S. official. "I think it is safe to say that we do not have that concern any longer."http://www.the-week.com/21dec30/events2.htm
Following that, the now US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld prepared a report, parts of which are worth repeating at length: "There is evidence that North Korea is working hard on the Taepodong 2 (TD-2) ballistic missile. It is unlikely the US would know of such a decision long before the missile was launched. This missile could reach major cities and military bases in Alaska and the smaller, westernmost islands in the Hawaiian chain. Light-weight variations of the TD-2 could fly as far as 10,000 km, placing at risk western US territory in an arc extending northwest from Phoenix in Arizona, to Madison in Wisconsin. No one is certain if North Korea has a bomb in the basement... Now, the burden of proof is on the person who believes in ghosts to PROVE that ghosts exist. If Donald Rumsfeld thinks North Korea has a bomb in the basement, it's HIS job to go take a picture of it with his Polaroid and bring it back to us, and show us.

I repeat, one missile test does not an entire armament make. And so far, it's only ONE test, way back in 1998. They officially, legally, technically suspended their testing operations back in 1999. Do you think they've been doing missile testing without anybody noticing? Where on Earth have they been doing this, pray tell? They officially scuppered their "plans" to test the Taepodong II back in 1999, which I suppose is your "enhanced Taepodong". Which apparently does not exist.

And, oh, look, here's a news item, from a Google cache:
North Korea says it may end moratorium on missile testing

January 11, 2003

BY HANS GREIMEL ASSOCIATED PRESS Advertisement

SEOUL, South Korea--North Korea said Saturday it might end a self-imposed moratorium on missile testing and warned that was ready to "mercilessly wipe out" other nations that infringe upon its sovereignty.

The missile testing announcement was likely to boost tensions even as more countries joined a chorus condemning the North for pulling out of an anti-nuclear pact on Friday.

If launches resume, they would be the first since 1998, when North Korea shocked the region by test-firing a missile over Japan into the Pacific. Pyongyang subsequently announced a moratorium on testing that was supposed to last into 2004.So where did they get your "enhanced Taepodong II"? Did Santa bring them? They sure haven't been testing them.

http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:YJa-ptsVv3MC:www.suntimes.com/output/news/koreamissiles11.html+north+korea+missile+testing&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8"

If North Korea does possess a missile that can reach Madison, Wisconsin, I'd sure like to know about it. But again, if they did have such a missile, whether Santa brought it or they built it themselves, then I'd think that Colin Powell would already know about it, and if Colin Powell knew about it, don't you think he'd have told Donald Rumsfeld? Not to mention the President? And all that "Axis of Evil/do they/don't they" hullabaloo on CNN would be--well, we just plain wouldn't be hearing it, would we? If North Korea really did have Intercontinental Ballistic Missile capabilities, Colin Powell and Donald Rumsfeld wouldn't be having all those worried meetings, wondering aloud to the press about whether North Korea had ICBMs.

If you are going to maintain, in the absence of any proof, that North Korea does in fact possess some kind of "enhanced" Taepodong missile, then you are a confirmed conspiracy theorist and we cannot help you.

It is not FAS's job to find out whether other countries have nukes, or to give warning of terrorist attacks. As you said yourself, they have the same information that the general public has. So why do you keep talking as though their failure to have any warning about 9/11 means something? It's exactly the same thing as saying, "The failure of the Girl Scouts of America to have any warning about 9/11 means something... [cue the Twilight Zone music]..."

It's the FBI's and the CIA's job to find out whether other countries have nukes, and to give warning of terrorist attacks. If the FBI and the CIA couldn't give warning of 9/11, and if the FBI and the CIA can't tell us, definitely, whether North Korea has nukes, how in the world would you expect the FAS to have that information?

If FAS is so good, why didn't they know about 9/11? Why do they ignore Asian military culture proven in history (spectacular surprise attacks)? Why didn't they know about the Indian nuclear tests if they are so hip on nuclear weapons devlopment?This is just stupid. FAS is just a clearinghouse for information, like InfoPlease or Google. You wouldn't say, "If Encyclopedia Dot Com is so hip on nuclear weapons development, why didn't they know about the Indian nuclear tests?"

And BTW, what in the Sam Hill are you talking about--"FAS didn't know about the Indian nuclear tests"? I mean, huh? What?
There was nothing from FAS that suggested India might detonate a nuclear weapon in a weapon test prior to India doing it several years ago. India's nuclear tests took everybody by surprise--where you been? If the CIA didn't even know about it, how would the FAS?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/jan-june98/cia_6-3a.html
June 3, 1998
KWAME HOLMAN: The initial nuclear test explosion set off by India last month was its first since 1974. And it came as a complete surprise to official Washington.

Policy-makers and members of Congress immediately criticized the Central Intelligence Agency for failing to detect preparations for the blast, especially since India's newly elected Hindu nationalist government had made a campaign pledge to make India a nuclear power. CIA Director George Tenet immediately commissioned an outside investigation of what happened. Your argument that because the FAS didn't give warning of 9/11 and of India's nuclear testing, that means their information on whether North Korea and Iran have nukes is suspect, is therefore completely specious.but I bet that North Korea has an infatuation with LA, San Fran and Seattle. If a country is infatuated with a military target, do they put resources into their ability to strike it?Um, why don't we establish first that they even HAVE such a weapon, before we start arguing about how to deal with it? :rolleyes:




edited--left out part of sentence

[fishbob]

Why no 3rd choice?

Our conventional weapons are enough for N.Korea. Why use nukes? Do you need a sledge hammer to swat a fly?

[gnome]

Originally posted by fishbob
Why no 3rd choice?


Because Jedi Knight prefers a straw man to a real opposing point of view.

The poll is equivalent to :

1. I agree with Jedi Knight
2. I'm stupid.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Goshawk
There is no such thing as an "enhanced" Taepodong II missile. If you think there is, please provide a cite. Here are mine. All I can find is baseless speculation, guesses, theories. But nothing like, say, actual "evidence". Or "proof" that such a thing exists on Planet Earth.

http://www.house.gov/donyoung/press/p19990728_1.htm
http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/engl288.06/webprojects/finalproject/mcm29/Washpost2.html
http://www.the-week.com/21dec30/events2.htm
Now, the burden of proof is on the person who believes in ghosts to PROVE that ghosts exist. If Donald Rumsfeld thinks North Korea has a bomb in the basement, it's HIS job to go take a picture of it with his Polaroid and bring it back to us, and show us.

I repeat, one missile test does not an entire armament make. And so far, it's only ONE test, way back in 1998. They officially, legally, technically suspended their testing operations back in 1999. Do you think they've been doing missile testing without anybody noticing? Where on Earth have they been doing this, pray tell? They officially scuppered their "plans" to test the Taepodong II back in 1999, which I suppose is your "enhanced Taepodong". Which apparently does not exist.

And, oh, look, here's a news item, from a Google cache:
So where did they get your "enhanced Taepodong II"? Did Santa bring them? They sure haven't been testing them.

http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:YJa-ptsVv3MC:www.suntimes.com/output/news/koreamissiles11.html+north+korea+missile+testing&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8"

If North Korea does possess a missile that can reach Madison, Wisconsin, I'd sure like to know about it. But again, if they did have such a missile, whether Santa brought it or they built it themselves, then I'd think that Colin Powell would already know about it, and if Colin Powell knew about it, don't you think he'd have told Donald Rumsfeld? Not to mention the President? And all that "Axis of Evil/do they/don't they" hullabaloo on CNN would be--well, we just plain wouldn't be hearing it, would we? If North Korea really did have Intercontinental Ballistic Missile capabilities, Colin Powell and Donald Rumsfeld wouldn't be having all those worried meetings, wondering aloud to the press about whether North Korea had ICBMs.

If you are going to maintain, in the absence of any proof, that North Korea does in fact possess some kind of "enhanced" Taepodong missile, then you are a confirmed conspiracy theorist and we cannot help you.

It is not FAS's job to find out whether other countries have nukes, or to give warning of terrorist attacks. As you said yourself, they have the same information that the general public has. So why do you keep talking as though their failure to have any warning about 9/11 means something? It's exactly the same thing as saying, "The failure of the Girl Scouts of America to have any warning about 9/11 means something... [cue the Twilight Zone music]..."

It's the FBI's and the CIA's job to find out whether other countries have nukes, and to give warning of terrorist attacks. If the FBI and the CIA couldn't give warning of 9/11, and if the FBI and the CIA can't tell us, definitely, whether North Korea has nukes, how in the world would you expect the FAS to have that information?

This is just stupid. FAS is just a clearinghouse for information, like InfoPlease or Google. You wouldn't say, "If Encyclopedia Dot Com is so hip on nuclear weapons development, why didn't they know about the Indian nuclear tests?"

And BTW, what in the Sam Hill are you talking about--"FAS didn't know about the Indian nuclear tests"? I mean, huh? What?
[/b] India's nuclear tests took everybody by surprise--where you been? If the CIA didn't even know about it, how would the FAS?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/jan-june98/cia_6-3a.html
Your argument that because the FAS didn't give warning of 9/11 and of India's nuclear testing, that means their information on whether North Korea and Iran have nukes is suspect, is therefore completely specious.[/b]Um, why don't we establish first that they even HAVE such a weapon, before we start arguing about how to deal with it? :rolleyes:




edited--left out part of sentence [/B]

You are simply restating your first post and that is not going to get us anywhere. I was just disproving in an alternate way that your information about American nuclear warhead targets that you linked was incorrect and was based on "projections" made by others. I could go ask Slyvia for the same "projections" lol.

Seriously. I was proving an important point. That point is that a country is not going to tell you where they have their nuclear weapons pointed. That is ridiculous nonsense.

If the United States was willing to tell everyone where our nuclear weapons were going, why can't even United States Senators find out? That's right. The US war plan is so secret, not even US Senators are allowed to see it.

But no, in your first drooling reply with your hip links you tried to fashion it in a way that you had all the information about nuclear targets, not just for US missiles but for Russia, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea, and every other nuke power out there in the world.

The Indian government, after examining our victory in the Persian Gulf War, issued a report that said: "Never engage the United States unless you have nuclear weapons".

So now you are trying to say that we have nothing to fear from Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, China, Russia, India and everyone else that has nukes? Why do those countries have them? They have them because of the United States. Those countries fear us, fear what we stand for, who we are and where we are going.

Again, you show me links where someone just doesn't quote "Iran has a missile", or "India has a missile" and then claim to possess psychic powers by saying the US is not in danger and I will be impressed. I don't see any pages at that site that warned of the threat of Al Qeada prior to 9/11, or the Taliban, or the Indian nuclear test, etc etc, so you just want us to take their "word" for it.

Sorry, that is not thinking in the real world. We know that North Korea has tested rocket motors for years, has removed inspectors from its nuclear fuel rod facilities, the remote cameras at those facilities, the threats by North Korea to destroy Japan and the United States, and you sit back and say "everything is just dandy" so-to-speak.

That is Orwellian.

Do me a favor and get a clue, OK?

JK

[fidiot]

I can't believe people actually voted in a poll with such ridiculous options.

Jedi, what would be your pick in a poll that goes something like this:

1. I'm a liberal
2. I'm a conservative, even though most of them are idiots.

P.S. this "poll" does not represent my opinion, I just thought you'd have a problem answering it. :)

[Goshawk]

in your first drooling reply with your hip links I stop reading as soon as people insult me.

Conversation's over.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK
Could we get back on topic, please? Allow me to guide you:

It is my considered opinion that butter improves the taste of a honey sandwich. There, I've said it.

Butter & Honey??? Never heard of that. Please expand.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by hal bidlack
Just to be clear here, out nuclear weapons are not on a "hair trigger alert" and never have been. I spent the first 5 years of my career in the AF as an ICBM launch officer, and know how it works. I'll spare you the details, but to suggest we are on a hair trigger is to suggest we are in an unstable position. The ICBM force, the SLBM and the AC force are all staffed by very professional men and women, who do their job very well.

We are able to rapidly counter any attack on the US, but that is, I think, a different concept than "hair trigger alert."

Just to be clear, Jedi Knight has never served in the military, and he gets all his nuclear weapons "knowledge" from comic books.

[fishbob]

Because Jedi Knight prefers a straw man to a real opposing point of view.

The poll is equivalent to :

1. I agree with Jedi Knight
2. I'm stupid.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Oh well, I guess I'm stupid. Hungry too. Can I have a sandwich now?

[Starshark]

There are a few innaccuarcies in this thread which must be addressed.


PB and grape jelly is disgusting. Honey and butter is psychotic. Anyway, you should be eating a high-fibre diet to keep your colon in trim.

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Starshark
Anyway, you should be eating a high-fibre diet to keep your colon in trim.
Do you want to know what my colon has to say to your high-fibre diet?

[ZeeGerman]

Despite the fact that my culinary expertise is limitted, I have to say

Honey and Butter is a MUST!!!

But try it with some reasonable (i.e. german ) bread, something that you actually have to chew... Mmmmmm honey bread

Zee

[Starshark]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK

Do you want to know what my colon has to say to your high-fibre diet?

Judging by your avatar, I don't need to hear anything your filthy commie colon has to say.

BTW: Where is Cerebus's hat? For Cerebus's holy head?

[ZeeGerman]

Hey,
I like these threads. Not for long and I will reach the number f posts necessary for an avatar.

Zee

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK

Do you want to know what my colon has to say to your high-fibre diet?
Is that a standard Colon you have there? Or is it an improved colon II that can strike mainland USA.

And while we are on the topic of north korea. I really wouldn't sweat to much about them JK. As you probably served with valor during the Korean war you would know that they lost that one. They are in worse shape now....Most of thier military units would fall apart if asked to drive around the block.

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by Starshark
BTW: Where is Cerebus's hat? For Cerebus's holy head?
He hasn't worn a hat in years. He's too busy reciting the Bible (which makes for a pretty boring comic book). Dave Sim, on the other hand, must have been wearing a hat several sizes too small to explain the brain damage he has suffered. He's almost, but not quite, as nuts as JK.
Originally posted by ZeeGerman
Honey and Butter is a MUST!!!

But try it with some reasonable (i.e. german ) bread, something that you actually have to chew... Mmmmmm honey bread
Although you're obviously a person of good taste, you ought to know that Danish bread is better than German bread. Mmmmmmmmmmm honey bread pie!

edited to add: Originally posted by The Fool

Is that a standard Colon you have there? Or is it an improved colon II that can strike mainland USA.
Standard commie-atheist-feminazi-evil-bad-humanist colon. Yep.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by The Fool

Is that a standard Colon you have there? Or is it an improved colon II that can strike mainland USA.


Is that an African or a European colon?

[Starshark]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Is that an African or a European colon?

How should I know? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEE!

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Goshawk
I stop reading as soon as people insult me.

Conversation's over.

That is most unfortunate. Saying that my observations about North Korea are wrong is like me saying that North Korea's terror dictator doesn't collect Daffy Duck.

Don't be so thinned skinned if you want to learn something. No one will ever hand you proof on world issues. Never.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


That is most unfortunate. Saying that my observations about North Korea are wrong is like me saying that North Korea's terror dictator doesn't collect Daffy Duck.

Don't be so thinned skinned if you want to learn something. No one will ever hand you proof on world issues. Never.

JK

Oh, BTW, the CIA said today that North Korea (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/east/02/12/us.nkorea/index.html) has a missile that can reach the United States, and they weren't talking about Alaska and Hawaii.

JK

[Regnad Kcin]

Well, I'll admit the thought of honey and butter sandwiched between two pieces of delicious nut grain bread sounds very appetizing. But it would have to be real butter and not margarine, I'd wager. Margarine, or "spread" of any sort would be not the sort of item I'd care to sample!

You know what is quite delicious? Honey and peanut butter! Try it with toasted bread for a mouth-watering treat.

Goodness, I enjoy honey and peanut butter as well as Marshmallow Fluff and peanut butter. Seems I really like peanut butter!

[Goshawk]

Oy vey. :rolleyes: From your own link:
North Korea has an untested ballistic missile capable of hitting the United States, top U.S. intelligence officials said Wednesday.

< snip >

Defense Intelligence Agency Director Vice Adm. Lowell Jacoby, also testifying at the hearing, said outside the hearing room that the North Korean missile has not yet been flight tested, according to The Associated Press.

Moments earlier Tenet said it was likely that North Korea had been able to produce as many as two plutonium-based nuclear weapons. Oh my god, they might actually have two, count 'em, TWO, whole nukes!!!!!! :eek:

And they don't even know if the missile works yet, because it hasn't been tested.

But IF it worked, and IF they had those two whole nukes, and IF they came up with a really good reason to send them C.O.D. towards America (maybe they disagree with giving five Oscars to "Gladiator"? ), and IF they managed to get those two whole nukes in the air, and IF they didn't just blow up somewhere over Japan, my God, it would be a holocaust!! Oakland AND Seattle!! No more A's!! No more Starbucks!!

Oh my God!! We're only a hairtrigger away from worldwide nuclear war!!

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Me, I'm headin' down cellar with a year's worth of toilet paper, 50 gallons of water, and a diesel generator, how 'bout you folks...

********
:rolleyes:

In other words, that's exactly what I said back on Page 1--there's no such thing as a Taepodong II missile, because they haven't tested it yet. Until that puppy actually gets in the air and proves that it actually has what it takes to be a Missile ("Today...you are...a Missile..."), it

doesn't.
friggin'.
count.

as a "missile".

Hey, by the same token, the U.S. has a really nifty "Star Wars" National Missile Defense system, [cue the Death Star music], and we could blast those North Korean nukes right outta the sky, except...that...oops, well, it doesn't really exist except on paper...but hey, we COULD intercept those North Korean nukes if we had the equipment, the same way the North Koreans COULD put a nuke in Seattle and Oakland, IF they had the equipment...


This is pathetic. Tenet saying they *might* have two missiles is not the same thing as Tenet saying they *do* have two missiles. The FBI saying five Pakistani terrorists *might* have been smuggled into the country is not the same thing as the FBI saying that five Pakistani terrorists *were* smuggled into the country.

January 1.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/01/fbi.wanted.men/index.html
The official said the administration believes the five traveled from Pakistan to Britain, then on to Canada. They are believed to have crossed into upstate New York from Canada with fake British passports on or around December 24. January 7.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/07/fbi.infiltrators/index.html
The FBI said Tuesday it has halted its search for five men who an informant said had infiltrated the United States from Canada.

The FBI, which feared a possible terrorism connection, now believes the informant provided false information. The tip had led to a nationwide manhunt. I pretty much stopped listening to government officials back in 1974, during Watergate. YMMV.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Goshawk
Oy vey. :rolleyes: From your own link:
Oh my god, they might actually have two, count 'em, TWO, whole nukes!!!!!! :eek:

They have more than that, but that is for another discussion. Also, how much would it cost to replace a city like San Francisco, for example? $15 Trillion? I don't think the amount of nuclear weapons a country has is as important as the potential to deliver them and the will to use them. If nuclear weapons are housed in a country that lacks the political will to use them, are they effective? Do you honestly believe that the nutcase at the helm of North Korea wouldn't use them?

And they don't even know if the missile works yet, because it hasn't been tested.

You don't know that. They have been testing the rocket motors regularly. Just because they haven't shot one off over Japan like they proved they could do many years ago doesn't mean they do not have the capaibility to hit the United States. At a minimum, North Korea could wipe out Japan, sending a perilous economic shockwave across the free world that would plunge it into a depression for over a decade. Is that a threat to US national security? You bet. That doesn't even include the economic damage should South Korea go up in a nuclear fireball. And if North Korea hits a major city in the Western US as it hits Japan and South Korea, it is game over for the global economy.

But IF it worked, and IF they had those two whole nukes, and IF they came up with a really good reason to send them C.O.D. towards America (maybe they disagree with giving five Oscars to "Gladiator"? ), and IF they managed to get those two whole nukes in the air, and IF they didn't just blow up somewhere over Japan, my God, it would be a holocaust!! Oakland AND Seattle!! No more A's!! No more Starbucks!!

You mean no more economy in California for at least ten years. LA would be a target because the Asian communists think that Hollywood is the propaganda headquarters of the US government. The communist Chinese have hyrdogen bombs trained on LA because they fear the PSYOPS potential of Hollywood. In fact, during the Taiwan Straits crisis with the Chinese in 1996, a communist general asked President Clinton if Hollywood was worth more than Taiwan. I know how all those monsters in Asia think. You should listen to what I am telling you.

Oh my God!! We're only a hairtrigger away from worldwide nuclear war!!

Potentially, yes, from a variety of locations. As nuclear weapons proliferate, nuclear stability deteriorates exponentially. That is because the new states do not respect the invention of others and lack civility. They did not invent the bomb--they are acquiring it to use it.

Me, I'm headin' down cellar with a year's worth of toilet paper, 50 gallons of water, and a diesel generator, how 'bout you folks...

Don't waste your time. There is no place to hide from a global nuclear warfare event.

In other words, that's exactly what I said back on Page 1--there's no such thing as a Taepodong II missile, because they haven't tested it yet. Until that puppy actually gets in the air and proves that it actually has what it takes to be a Missile ("Today...you are...a Missile..."), it

doesn't.
friggin'.
count.

as a "missile".

You are wrong--they have tested the new Taepodong II missile, just not in the way you think they would. The Asians are clever--they always have been, especially over military matters.

Hey, by the same token, the U.S. has a really nifty "Star Wars" National Missile Defense system, [cue the Death Star music], and we could blast those North Korean nukes right outta the sky, except...that...oops, well, it doesn't really exist except on paper...but hey, we COULD intercept those North Korean nukes if we had the equipment, the same way the North Koreans COULD put a nuke in Seattle and Oakland, IF they had the equipment...

We have a missile defense.


This is pathetic. Tenet saying they *might* have two missiles is not the same thing as Tenet saying they *do* have two missiles. The FBI saying five Pakistani terrorists *might* have been smuggled into the country is not the same thing as the FBI saying that five Pakistani terrorists *were* smuggled into the country.

Sources and methiods. I like Tenet. He is a good man and an even better listener.

January 1.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/01/fbi.wanted.men/index.html
January 7.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/07/fbi.infiltrators/index.html
I pretty much stopped listening to government officials back in 1974, during Watergate. YMMV.

Not me, I listen to all government officials as much as possible.

JK

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
We have a missile defense.



Folks, I hope you understand that Jedi Believes the usa already has a "secret" space based missile defence system up and running. And you thought he wasn't a conspiracy theorist kook??

oops, sorry...he doesn't believe it exists, he KNOWS it exists but is unable to show any evidence (how unusual).

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by The Fool

Folks, I hope you understand that Jedi Believes the usa already has a "secret" space based missile defence system up and running. And you thought he wasn't a conspiracy theorist kook??

oops, sorry...he doesn't believe it exists, he KNOWS it exists but is unable to show any evidence (how unusual).

Fire a missile at us and find out.

JK

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Reginald
He sat there, the combat knife in his hand, digging the words into the floorboards. The ash from his cigarette, falling in neglected lumps to the floor.

The words he had carved a thousand times while he waited.....

"I'll make everyone pay".

You speakin to me, you speakin to me? I don't see anybody else here, you speakin to me?

[Aardvark_DK]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You speakin to me, you speakin to me? I don't see anybody else here, you speakin to me?
Talkin', not speakin'.

Get your Taxi Driver quotes straight. :p

[The Don]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


You speakin to me, you speakin to me? I don't see anybody else here, you speakin to me?

Actually this quote comes from the movie "Chauffeur" which was very much like taxi driver but a great deal more polite

[Goshawk]

And you thought he wasn't a conspiracy theorist kook??
Well, "hope springs eternal" and all that... :D

Yo, JK, the North Koreans don't even need an ICBM.

http://www.safefoundation.org/tech/national_vs_theater.html
But couldn't a short-range ballistic missile armed with nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons of mass destruction cause as much damage as a similarly armed ICBM? Yes. As the 1998 Rumsfeld Commission pointed out, short-range missiles such as the Scud can be put on a ship off shore or in a third-party nation within range of the United States and fired against a US city. So missile range does not really matter; "shorter" can be just as deadly. Anytime Kim Jung wants to take out San Francisco, he can. " :eek: "


http://www.bsnn.net/cgi-bin/tinfoil.jpg


okay, okay, i know, it's not polite to tease the Conspiracy Theorist, i'll stop now