Organic strawberries are always better

[FaisonMars]

I'm starting a new thread to discuss organic berries, because I posted this link in another thread:

http://www.theorganicreport.com/pages/261_why_choose_organic_strawberries_.cfm

and it was described as propaganda. The site is certainly biased toward organic food (noticed the name of the site), but I've heard from a lot of other independent sources that organic strawberries are always worth buying (instead of conventionally grown berries) because of how the berries take up pesticides. Also, organic berries grow more slowly (without chemical fertilizer), and so they tend to be more flavorful.

I can say from personal experience that organic strawberries definitely taste better. If you don't believe me, come to New Haven during strawberry season, and we can go down the Yale farm on across the street from my office and pick some local, organic strawberries to taste. We could even do a double-blind test with some store-bought berries.

When I have time, I'll try to find some more independent stories about pesticides in berries. But this is to get things started.

(There's also the whole issue of the cost of chemicals in the environment, but for now I'm just talking about which berries are more desirable.)

[ponderingturtle]

But how much of this is that the organic stawberries are local and permited to rippen on the vine, vs being imported from a very long distance away and picked before they are ripe?

The berries might be much better, but it might not be because they are organic, but that they are local.

[thomps1d]

The berries might be much better, but it might not be because they are organic, but that they are local.

That would be a big factor, as would the placebo effect.

(begin nitpick)

Not to mention that a non-organic berry doesn't exist, unless you're the type of person who likes to go around eating small round rocks. ALL berries are, by definition, organic.

If, however, the OP was referring to pesticide-free berries, I stand by ponderingturtle's post that the difference is most likely due to the fact that grocery stores tend to import berries from long distances, forcing them to be picked before they are ripe.

(end nitpick)

[Hokulele]

(further nitpick)

Organically grown produce can use pesticides and fertilizers, just ones from so-called natural sources. Regardless of the source, anything that can kill pests probably has some pretty strong chemicals involved, even if they were not produced in a lab.

(end further nitpick)

[The Mad Hatter]

I always wonder about those claims about pesticide residues. That article said:

"A typical grower of conventional strawberries may use methyl bromide, chloropicrin, Captan, malathion, Diprom, Vendex, Kelthane, and Avermectin to bring a crop of strawberries to market (371 pesticides are approved by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) for use on strawberries). Any of these may show up in your strawberry basket in the form of legally allowable pesticide residues."

If the amount of pesticide residues are that harmful, would the EPA approve them? The article only said there were health concerns over illegal amounts of pesticide residues. Is there any evidence that the legal amounts have any health effects?

[Darat]

...snip...

, but I've heard from a lot of other independent sources that organic strawberries are always worth buying (instead of conventionally grown berries) because of how the berries take up pesticides.

...snip...


Don't forget there are several pesticides that can be used in organic farming (in the UK I believe there are 7 allowed by the Soil Association) so I would want to see some data as to the uptake of the different pesticides.

...snip...
Also, organic berries grow more slowly (without chemical fertilizer), and so they tend to be more flavorful.

...snip...


I doubt this, again organic farming does not mean no fertilizers just that the fertilizer itself has to be "organic" and these are mass produced for large scale organic farmers. (But see comments below.)


...snip...

I can say from personal experience that organic strawberries definitely taste better. If you don't believe me, come to New Haven during strawberry season, and we can go down the Yale farm on across the street from my office and pick some local, organic strawberries to taste. We could even do a double-blind test with some store-bought berries.

...snip....


That would not be a fair comparison - don't forget the shop bought ones would have been stored for longer and freshness really can alter flavours.

There is one thing that you have not mentioned that can easily account for difference in taste regardless of the "organic" or "non-organic" status and that is the variety of the strawberries. This I suspect would account for the difference you taste, I bet the shop bought ones you compare the organic ones to are are Elsanta* and the organic ones are a different variety.

(*Big superstore chains tend to look for varieties that suit their logistical needs (i.e. will transport & store well) and will appeal to their consumer (i.e. shape & colour), that probably means taste comes quite low down in their priorities. Indeed in the UK most of the mass produced strawberries are of a single variety called "Elsanta" which has good yields (which the growers want), has a long shelf life and is quite resistant to bruising (logistics) and is bright red and "strawberry shape" what the consumers choose by, however it certainly is not the best tasting strawberry.)

[FaisonMars]

I strongly agree with the points that local berries, organic or not, will be better than non-local berries. Maybe that's really what my point is, although I would still ALWAYS pick the box of organic berries at the store over the non-organics. Perhaps that's the double-blind test that should be done.

However, I don't think that strawberries ripen off the vine (like tomatoes or bananas do)... they are picked ripe, but some of the commercial varieties are selected to last longer in the store before going bad.

The points about the "organic" label not necessarily meaning strictly "pesticide-free" are well-taken. The rules for organic food in the US have become more and more diluted over the years as industrial-organic farms try to raise production and cut costs. The best you can hope for is that food with the organic label with still use less chemical fertilizer and pesticides than conventional food, and you have to do your research as an informed consumer about what different brands actually do to the food.

I need to find (or solicit) some more solid evidence, however, on the common claim that strawberries are more susceptible to taking up pesticides into the fruit compared to other fruits and vegetables. It makes sense to me, but like a good skeptic, I'd like to see the evidence either way.

[Darat]

...snip...

I need to find (or solicit) some more solid evidence, however, on the common claim that strawberries are more susceptible to taking up pesticides into the fruit compared to other fruits and vegetables. It makes sense to me, but like a good skeptic, I'd like to see the evidence either way.

Out of curiosity (whilst waiting for the evidence) why does this make sense to you? What's special about the strawberry and its uptake of pesticides?

[FaisonMars]

Out of curiosity (whilst waiting for the evidence) why does this make sense to you? What's special about the strawberry and its uptake of pesticides?

I think that's my gut reaction just because they are inside-out.

They are also very fragile, so it's difficult for them to be washed effectively on an industrial scale (but that's not an uptake issue).

[tracer]

The points about the "organic" label not necessarily meaning strictly "pesticide-free" are well-taken. The rules for organic food in the US have become more and more diluted over the years as industrial-organic farms try to raise production and cut costs. The best you can hope for is that food with the organic label with still use less chemical fertilizer and pesticides than conventional food, and you have to do your research as an informed consumer about what different brands actually do to the food.
As far as I know, the "Certified Organic" label in the U.S. has always allowed so-called natural pesticides to be used on the food. And there's no limit on the amount of natural pesticide that can be used.

[Rob Lister]

I think that's my gut reaction just because they are inside-out.

They are also very fragile, so it's difficult for them to be washed effectively on an industrial scale (but that's not an uptake issue).

In that case I would certainly go for the 'non-organic' berries.

Think about it.

[Hokulele]

In that case I would certainly go for the 'non-organic' berries.

Think about it.


Now I need another cup of tea to replace the one I just vaporized across the desk. :D

[vIQleS]

I strongly agree with the points that local berries, organic or not, will be better than non-local berries. Maybe that's really what my point is, although I would still ALWAYS pick the box of organic berries at the store over the non-organics. Perhaps that's the double-blind test that should be done.

You seem pretty adamant - have you done a randomized DB test yet? (It can't be that hard to find volunteers to taste strawberries for a couple of hours on a Saturday morning...)

[Wowbagger]

For what it is worth, I tried to check out one of the sources listed in that Earthbound Farms page.

While I could not find the March 1999 article, entitled "How Safe is Our Produce?", I found evidence that Consumer Reports (published by Consumers Union) does like to spread some fear about pesticides:

In October 2006, this is what Consumer Reports had to say (emphasis mine):
Consider organics, sometimes. It’s worth paying extra for certain organic foods. To minimize exposure to chemicals, we recommend buying organic apples, bell peppers, celery, nectarines, pears, peaches, potatoes, rasp*berries, spinach, and strawberries. We also recommend buying organic meat, dairy products, poultry, and eggs to minimize exposure to potential toxins in nonorganic feed.
Subscribers to ConsumerReports.org can find this article by searching for "organic berries" in their site.

However, I also found this article, on JunkScience.com that seems to debunk the Consumers Union report, with the following claim:

The study is flawed because its safety determinations were based on measurements that have little, if anything, to do with safety.

The article can be found here:
http://www.junkscience.com/consumer/oct99/consumer_sm0220.html
(That JS article tries to link to the original CU report, but their link no longer seems to work.)

I checked this source, in particular, because I am generally a fan of the magazine. Though, I know they are not always right about everything.

[mummymonkey]

I grew up on a fruit farm. We produced mostly raspberries & strawberries.
The points made previously are all valid. Supermarkets only buy fruit that is evenly shaped, large, brightly coloured and has a long shelf life. They don't care about the taste. Many things affect the flavour of berries - variety, amount of water/light during growing season, was it grown under cover, early or late fruit, was it picked green then forced, length of time to market etc, etc.
It's possible to pick sublime tasting fruit and tasteless mush from the same field a week apart.

[Jorghnassen]

That would be a big factor, as would the placebo effect.

(begin nitpick)

Not to mention that a non-organic berry doesn't exist, unless you're the type of person who likes to go around eating small round rocks. ALL berries are, by definition, organic.

If, however, the OP was referring to pesticide-free berries, I stand by ponderingturtle's post that the difference is most likely due to the fact that grocery stores tend to import berries from long distances, forcing them to be picked before they are ripe.

(end nitpick)

Here's my nitpick: many words have multiple meanings/definitions. The original meaning of organic, if I recall correctly, was "derived from a living source" (it appears (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/organic) I am pretty much correct, and look, 15 different definitions for the word). So lay off the "organic means carbon-based" nitpick, we all know in this context "organic" means "product of a specific set of farming techniques", techniques involving somewhat different pesticides and fertilizers than "conventional" farming, and which, in theory, should use less pesticides (in theory, communism works...). Now if you disagree with this definition, will you please stop using the non-mathematical definitions of, say, group, ring and field because that's just unscientific ;).

Anywho, I only buy local strawberries in season, to insure I don't get flavourless giant mutated misshaped pieces of plastic that traveled more miles than my car has since I bought it. I did have local organic strawberries once at a restaurant, and will admit those were delicious, nice shape, ideal texture, perfectly ripe and just the right size. But here's the thing: it was a month too early to be in season. Those were clearly grown indoors. I figure it can't be that hard not to use pesticides and stick to "certified organic" fertilizers when you have pretty much complete control over an enclosed environment. The restaurant in question has since closed. Though they had a very original menu (using varieties of vegetable and fruits you won't find elsewhere), it was just way too expensive (e.g. they had bottled water from Fiji... if you ask me, H2O is H2O, no matter where it's from, and way to balance your ecological footprint for using local produce).

[FaisonMars]

You seem pretty adamant - have you done a randomized DB test yet? (It can't be that hard to find volunteers to taste strawberries for a couple of hours on a Saturday morning...)

I would be very happy to do the test... when berry season rolls around, I will recruit subjects and publish my results.

In my casual research this afternoon, most of the info I've found regarding pesticide uptake in strawberries has turned out to be dubious (not from independent sources, etc.), so I'm basically ready to drop that assumption that I had from hearing farmers talk about it. However, I have found more reliable sources that warn about pesticide residue on non-organic strawberries, as well as other fruits, such as:

http://www.foodnews.org/methodology.php

I'll continue looking into this.

[Mercutio]

Berries you pick yourself are always better.

Wild berries are the best.

[T'ai Chi]

When one says "better", do you mean taste, smell, texture, less damaged per bushell, lowest price, longest shelf time, best for a pie, a jam, or some other secondary good, easiest to pick, what exactly?

[FaisonMars]

When one says "better", do you mean taste, smell, texture, less damaged per bushell, lowest price, longest shelf time, best for a pie, a jam, or some other secondary good, easiest to pick, what exactly?

In this thread, I would say they taste better and are more healthy, eaten fresh.

I could also argue that organic farming in general is better for the environment and for the safety of agriculture workers, but that's more complicated, and here I'm not actually trying to defend that claim.

[Jorghnassen]

Berries you pick yourself are always better.

Wild berries are the best.

QFT. I mean, we have a winner! Especially in the case of blueberries, and those wild field strawberries (the tiny ones) of which you need so many to make a single jar of jam (the best jam ever).

[Slimething]

In this thread, I would say they taste better and are more healthy, eaten fresh.

I would caution you about the "more healthy" assumption. Produce is better washed than not. If we have learned anything from the E. coli debacle in spinach, it's that natural is not necessarily better. Take your prizes home, wash them well, even with very dilute bleach if you have reason to believe there's wildlife in the area.

I could also argue that organic farming in general is better for the environment and for the safety of agriculture workers, but that's more complicated, and here I'm not actually trying to defend that claim.

I would differ with you on these assumptions as well. In addition to organic farming legally including a great many synthetic pesticides, a greater amount of manure-based fertilizer is used as well. Also, don't forget that not all pesticides are taken up by plants. The bulk of pesticides are non-systemic and only a few are systemic. The non-systemic pesticides are there to fight mold, mildew and other fungi that would quickly destroy a crop and are easily washed off prior to ingestion. The systemic types are mostly insecitides like mectins, nicotinoids and others that kill insects that bite the fruit. If you can taste these, I have a job for you.

My money is on factors not involving growing practices accounting for your predilection to the freshest fruit possible. And, there, I agree with you wholeheartedly. There's nothing like fresh. Storage time allows sugars to turn to starches. dehydration and oxygen to "burn" the crop.

[DRBUZZ0]

I make sure that I only eat food which is fertilized with organic fertilizers, such as ammonium nitrate, ammonium phosphate and potassium nitrate.

oh crap... is the last one considered organic? Er... let me so.. potassium isn't...and nitrate can or can't be depending on the context? Oh damn... I may be in trouble!

And here I thought I was sticking to organic foods!

[kellyb]

I would caution you about the "more healthy" assumption. Produce is better washed than not. If we have learned anything from the E. coli debacle in spinach, it's that natural is not necessarily better.

.

I thought it was eventually determined that the contaminated spinach wasn't organic?

ETA:
Here...read all the comments and the links.
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2006/09/e_coli_linked_t.html

[SomeGuy]

Is it unreasonably to assume that "organic" pesticides might have an even easier uptake?

I try to buy organic local food, because it makes me feel good, but deep down, I have serious doubts I am getting a better product, and if it is a better product my skepticism tells me that is probably in bigger part due to being local than due to being "organic".

[Soapy Sam]

QFT. I mean, we have a winner! Especially in the case of blueberries, and those wild field strawberries (the tiny ones) of which you need so many to make a single jar of jam (the best jam ever).

Absolutely!

Wild blueberries or strawberries, chance found on a mountain, are the sweetest fruit on Earth! Part of it is the sheer delight of discovery, part the fact nobody but me has them!
Last year , we had wild cherries in Scotland! Roll on Global warming !

[Cuddles]

QFT. I mean, we have a winner! Especially in the case of blueberries, and those wild field strawberries (the tiny ones) of which you need so many to make a single jar of jam (the best jam ever).

Those would be Alpine strawberries and yes, they are awesome. Kind of like all the taste of a normal strawberry squeezed into one little package. Hmm, that gives me an idea. *Wanders off to Google "shink rays"*

[pdw709]

I've always had a hard time accepting "Organic" produce, particularly when you examine what constitutes an "acceptable" organic pestiside. Last time I looked, Copper Sulphate was on the list of approved "natural" pestasides, despite the fact that it is NOT a naturally occuring compound and is highly toxic...........

To echoe what whats been said before, if you want to eat healthy fruit and veg, then simply go for locally produced FRESH food that has not been intensively farmed. The "organic" craze is just a licence to print money and for supermarkets to put up their prices 200%

Phil

[ponderingturtle]

I would be very happy to do the test... when berry season rolls around, I will recruit subjects and publish my results.


I am officially volunteering to help with this test. Hmm, double blind strawberry pies.

[Stitch]

No substitute for home grown, it's doesn't get any fresher. Just starting to crop radishes and wow, they almost blow your head off compared to the shop bought red bags of water.

[Serenity]

Pick your poison wisely! I.e. you won’t see me buying organic peanut butter any time soon.

I frequently do buy organic, despite all the dubious labeling with few exceptions; mainly in an attempt to minimize exposure to products with a bad rep for heavy pesticide loads.

Best to know your producer’s farming methods and ask what pesticides, fungicides, and herbicides, etc… they’re using, but who has the time or patience for that?

[Slimething]

I thought it was eventually determined that the contaminated spinach wasn't organic?

ETA:
Here...read all the comments and the links.
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2006/09/e_coli_linked_t.html

I was hoping that someone wouldn't ask this question because I don't have a link. The USDA held a press conference in CA a few months ago. The USDA has identified the specific field where the tainted spinach came from and it's a farm that is converting from commercial to organic. The govt will not release the identity of the specific farm because they are concerned for the potential repercussions on the farm and the organic industry. But, as I said, no link. Believe it or not.