Flu vaccine linked to Parkinson's?

[SquishyDave]

I overheard someone say this at work. I looked around but could find nothing. No information saying there was one, none saying there wasn't.

Not even anti-vac websites I found seemed to say this.

Is there anyone here who might have some greater insight? My googling has failed me.

Thanks.

[casebro]

Old folks get flu shots: Old folks get Altzeimers. So, therefore...

Sounds bogus to me.

Sounds bogus to me.

Sounds bogus to me.

And I just had a flu shot last week.

[Eos of the Eons]

Ask them how it would be linked. Parkinson's is caused by a deficiency of dopamine due to degenerations in the basal ganglia. Does anything in the flu vaccine affect the basal ganglia? Does anything in the flu vaccine cause dopamine levels to drop any other way? The answer is no, but ask anyways.

Maybe the maroons just figure the old folks are getting Parkinsons because of the flu vaccine (the vaccine is free for the ederly), rather than knowing Parkinsons is often the result of old age (not always though, re: Michael J. Fox).

Vaccines get blamed for everything, so I'm not surprised to hear of this new ridiculous pack of hooey. I wonder where they heard it from?

Maybe they heard something about the vaccine being developed for Parkinsons?
http://www.webmd.com/parkinsons-disease/news/20050615/small-step-made-toward-parkinsons-vaccine

[SquishyDave]

I would ask, but this person is my very first nemesis. I will not talk to her any more than is required by my job.

I think I can find out from the person she was telling. A group of us are getting our flu vaccine on Thursday, paid for by our employee, so I will ask the person she was talking to the details.

Luckily she has not influenced anyone else in the office, or I would be making a much bigger deal out of this.

Thanks Eos.

[Eos of the Eons]

You're very welcome. Gee, I wonder why you don't like that girl/nemesis? :p

[robinson]

Wikipedia says -

Because the brain lesions found in Alzheimer's disease contain aluminum, there is concern that consumption of excess aluminium compounds may cause or contribute to the development of this and other neurodegenerative diseases (Perl, 2006, Kawahara, 2005)

Some vaccines contain aluminum hydroxide and/or aluminum phosphate. This is probably the reason for the supposed link.

>edit

Yep. A quick search finds hundreds of web pages talking about this. And, as you would expect, they range from out there CT pages to official denials of any possible link between vaccines containing aluminum and any health problems from them.

Caveat Emptor

[kellyb]

Flu vaccines in the US aren't adjuvanted, though.

[Eos of the Eons]

*breathes*

Okay, first of all, Wiki BAD, BAD Wiki.

Second of all, aluminum is NOT found in Alzheimer lesions like that. Not built up, like it was the sole cause or something ridiculous. Not like anyone with Alzheimers has had MORE exposure than anyone else. And it is not an indicated "cause". Eliminating all the aluminum in the world would not cause Alzheimer rates to drop, blah blah, on and on, just like with the mercury and autism crappola...

Third of all, vaccines don't contain aluminum.

*grits teeths* *mumbles*

Please use better sources for your information robinson.

[kellyb]

A lot of vaccines are adjuvanted with aluminum, but not flu vaccines.

[Eos of the Eons]

A lot of vaccines are adjuvanted with aluminum, but not flu vaccines.


Please list them, in alphabetical order, with verifiable proof.

[robinson]

Maybe the maroons just figure the old folks are getting Parkinsons because of the flu vaccine (the vaccine is free for the ederly), rather than knowing Parkinsons is often the result of old age (not always though, re: Michael J. Fox).


Maybe you should learn to use Google before saying you have no idea about something. It only takes a few minutes to find stuff.:pilaugh:


Vaccines get blamed for everything, so I'm not surprised to hear of this new ridiculous pack of hooey. I wonder where they heard it from?

No, vaccines don't get blamed for everything. And it isn't usually the vaccines that people object to, but the toxic chemicals and heavy metals in them. Vaccines good, heavy metals bad. Again, Google is your friend.

I found a dozen links about this issue in less than 15 seconds. Of course, it does involve reading and thinking and stuff, as well as a skeptical eye, so maybe wondering about stuff is better than researching it.

It certainly is easier. :wackylaugh:

Aluminum hydroxide is commonly used in pediatric and adult vaccines, including those for whooping cough, hepatitis A and hepatitis B.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/03/060331152235.htm

[robinson]

Second of all, aluminum is NOT found in Alzheimer lesions.


Please back up your statement, with verifiable proof.

Third of all, vaccines don't contain aluminum.


Please back up your statement, with verifiable proof.

[SquishyDave]

Yeah, there seems to be no way for us to meaningfully communicate. Ah well.

[kellyb]

This is pretty common knowledge, Eos. Just look up "vaccines adjuvants" and you can find it pretty easily. In the US, only aluminum salts are licensed for use right now. Probably Canada, too.
Off the top of my head, the DTaP, TD, Gardasil, Prevnar, some HepA and B vaccines, and Adacel are adjuvanted. None of the live vaccines need adjuvants (like varicella, MMR, etc) since they're living, replicating viruses.

If you really want me to look up the package inserts I will, but it's not difficult information to obtain on your own.

[robinson]

Aluminum Potassium Sulfate (Adjuvant )

DtaP (Tripedia), DTwP (Aventis Pasteur), DT (Aventis Pasteur,), Td (Aventis Pasteur)

Aluminum Hydroxide (Adjuvant)

Anthrax (BioThrax), DTaP (Certiva, Infanrix, Acel-Imune), DT (Massachusetts), Td (Massachusetts), Hib (PedvaxHib), Hib-Hepatitis B (Comvax), Hepatitis A (Havrix, Vaqta), Hepatitis B (Engerix-B, Recombivax- HB), Lyme disease (LymeRix), Human Papillomavirus (Gardasil)

Aluminum Phosphate (Adjuvant)

DTaP (Acel-Immune), DtwP (Massachusetts, BioPort), DT (Wyeth-Lederle), Td (Massachusetts, Wyeth-Lederle), Pneumococcal (Prevnar), Rabies (BioRab), Human papillomavirus (Gardasil)

Source: CDC

Time spent on post: 2 seconds searching, 30 seconds copy and paste, 5 seconds formatting, 30 seconds to write this.

Look on Eons face: Priceless

[Eos of the Eons]

Maybe you should learn to use Google before saying you have no idea about something. It only takes a few minutes to find stuff.


No, vaccines don't get blamed for everything. And it isn't usually the vaccines that people object to, but the toxic chemicals and heavy metals in them. Vaccines good, heavy metals bad. Again, Google is your friend.



Heavy metal bad. Simple as that? Just use google? Why not use reliable sources of information and your brain instead?


Some facts on Aluminum: Aluminum, the most abundant metal on Earth, is found in soil, in water and in air.

The intake of aluminum from food for an adult amounts to about 8 milligrams per day, although higher daily intakes have also been estimated. In general, approximately 95% of the normal daily intake of aluminum for an adult comes from food. For infants, daily intakes of aluminum are usually less than 1 milligram per day.

a number of other studies have shown no relationship between aluminum in drinking water and the onset of dementia. In addition, scientists have been unable to induce Alzheimer's disease-type changes in the brains of laboratory animals expo sed to aluminum, or to explain the absence of Alzheimer's disease-type changes in brains of patients suffering from dialysis encephalopathy. Some studies have also shown little or no accumulation of aluminum in the brain tissues of Alzheimer's patients. http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/water-eau/drink-potab/aluminum-aluminium_e.html

So, nobody will say aluminum has been completly ruled out yet, they also have a lot of questions to answers. Basically, unless you ingest hundreds of times more than you already do per day, then nothing is going to change to make you more at risk of Alzheimers, especially not in the minimal amount you would get even if ALL vaccines contain them.

I'd still like to hear of what common vaccines available today have aluminum compounds in them, and if that compound stays in the body at all for even more than a few hours.

At the above link they answer some frequent questions, and basically you don't need to change anything, and can even still use aluminum pots if you aren't too paranoid about aluminum already.

If you're that concerned though, you'd better stop using deoderant and antiperspirants too.

[kellyb]

I think the Lyme disease one got pulled because of autoimmune reaction lawsuits.

[robinson]

Certain aluminum compounds have been found to be an important component of the neurological damage characteristics of Alzheimer's Disease (AD). Much research over the last decade has focused on the role of aluminum in the development of this disease.
http://www.niehs.nih.gov/external/faq/aluminum.htm

However, abundant evidence now shows that aluminum may adversely affect the nervous system in humans and animals.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/water-eau/drink-potab/aluminum-aluminium_e.html

I thought this was about Parkinson's disease?

Aluminum deposition in the central nervous system tissues of patients with Parkinson's disease

Yasui M, Kihira T, Ota K, Mukoyama M, Adachi K.

Division of Neurological Diseases, Wakayama Medical College.

Aluminum (Al) concentration in the 26 anatomic central nervous system (CNS) regions, liver, kidney, spleen and heart of our patients with Parkinson's disease, and five neurologically normal controls was measured by a non-destructive neutron activation analysis (NAA), in order to clarify the implication of Al on pathogenesis of Parkinson's disease. Al concentration in substantia nigra, caudate nucleus and globus pallidus increased in patients with Parkinson's disease more than that in controls (p less than 0.05). There was a significant difference in Al concentration of gray matter and basal ganglia in Parkinson's disease, compared with those of controls (p less than 0.01). It is likely that high Al deposition in pathological foci responsible for Parkinson's disease might be implicated in the pathogenesis of Parkinson's disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1802464&dopt=Abstract

[Eos of the Eons]

Oy, you were the one who posted the Wiki stuff on Alzheimers.

Yes, I had no idea what aluminum compounds were used in any vaccine.

Now, prove a link to alzheimers. Or parkinsons. Or any other disease antivaxxers are trying to blame vaccines for.

I still would like to know how long the aluminum compounds stay in the body. Are they even absorbed into the blood stream, and passed onto any tissues in the body?

I'm still searching the CDC for the kinds of salts used in the vaccines listed. Can anyone please supply a link?

[kellyb]

I still would like to know how long the aluminum compounds stay in the body. Are they even aborbed into the blood stream, and passed onto any tissues in the body?

There was an FDA meeting in Puerto Rico a few years back on the studies on aluminum toxicology, body burden, clearance rates, etc. From what I remember, in rabbits, the clearance rate is around 3 days. First stop is the lymphatic system, and then it makes it into the urinary track. Most is excreted, but what stays collects primarily in bone, then brain and muscle.
If you're curious, I'll try to re-find a link to the meeting. It's the most comprehensive source I've found on the question so far.
There was also a mouse neurotoxicity study done last year that's pretty interesting.

[robinson]

I'd still like to hear of what common vaccines available today have aluminum compounds in them, and if that compound stays in the body at all for even more than a few hours.


I'm searching for the paper that first linked vaccines to Parkinson's. (And yes, I didn't know there was one until about 5 minutes ago). I would like that info you requested as well, concerning aluminum in vaccines.

>edit

Hmm... this isn't the earliest, but it was the first I found.

Histochemical localization of aluminum in the rabbit CNS

G. Y. Wen1 and H. M. Wisniewski

"Summary: Aluminum was observed in the nucleolus, interchromatin granules, rough endoplasmic reticulum, free ribosomes, euchromatin, and the heterochromatin of the neuron. The association of aluminum with the first four r-RNA-containing cellular components and with the last two DNA-containing chromatins suggests the association of aluminum with the nucleic acids. The aluminum may interfere with the normal mechanism of the protein synthesis of r-RNA and of the transcription or gene modulation of DNA. Aluminum was also observed in the astrocytic process and in the nuclei of endothelial cells, pericytes, and the muscle cells of the blood vessels. The detection of aluminum in the pyrimidal cells of the cerebral cortex and hippocampus and in the spinal cord neurons, was observed 1 h after i. v. injection, indicating a rapid entry of aluminum from the injection site through the blood-brain barrier (BBB) to the neurons. Using Morin stain, pyramidal neurons of the cerebral cortex and hippocampus, motoneurons of spinal cord, ganglion cells, and bipolar cells of retina and Purkinje cells of cerebellum, exhibited yellow fluoroscence, with peak intensitiy at 560 nm. Tangles were observed in these six types of neurons. The granule cells of hippocampus and cerebellum and the photoreceptors of the retina exhibited green fluorescence with the peak intensity at 490–500 nm. Tangles were not observed in these three types of neurons."

(1) New York State Office of Mental Retardation and Developmental Disabilities, Institute for Basic Research in Developmental Disabilities, 1050 Forest Hill Road, 10314 Staten Island, NY, USA

Received: 7 May 1985 Accepted: 9 July 1985

[Eos of the Eons]

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/external/faq/aluminum.htm


http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/water-eau/drink-potab/aluminum-aluminium_e.html

I thought this was about Parkinson's disease?


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1802464&dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1802464&dopt=Abstract)

Blah blah, may, might, likely. Let's look into it some more, because these sources have no concrete conclusions.

Let's post lots of contradictory links, because that is going to get us somewhere.

Bottom line was posted already. You can stuff tons of aluminum in animals, and they won't just get Alzheimer plaques or decreased dopamine due to damaged basal ganglia.

I'm still waiting for the CDC link, because I haven't found the web page yet. How did you find it in 2 seconds?

[kellyb]

Here's that meeting:

http://www.autismhelpforyou.com/aluminum%20-%201%20of%202.pdf

It's long, but it's informative.

ETA:
Here's the neurotoxicity study...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=17114826

Here's the fulltext:
http://www.a-champ.org/documents/Petrik_Shaw_et_al.,%202006_Mar_10b.pdf

[Eos of the Eons]

There was an FDA meeting in Puerto Rico a few years back on the studies on aluminum toxicology, body burden, clearance rates, etc. From what I remember, in rabbits, the clearance rate is around 3 days. First stop is the lymphatic system, and then it makes it into the urinary track. Most is excreted, but what stays collects primarily in bone, then brain and muscle.
If you're curious, I'll try to re-find a link to the meeting. It's the most comprehensive source I've found on the question so far.
There was also a mouse neurotoxicity study done last year that's pretty interesting.


What aluminum compounds did they use? How long does it take the aluminum salts in vaccines to clear?

[Eos of the Eons]

Here's that meeting:

http://www.autismhelpforyou.com/aluminum%20-%201%20of%202.pdf

It's long, but it's informative.

ETA:
Here's the neurotoxicity study...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=17114826

Here's the fulltext:
http://www.a-champ.org/documents/Petrik_Shaw_et_al.,%202006_Mar_10b.pdf

I read the meeting pdf page about the adjuvant, and the presenter said that he had no doubt that it cleared from the body and didn't not go anywhere "unexpected". The meeting happened in 2000.

Is the adjuvant in the anthrax vaccine different than in any other? It didn't look like it, and the findings have not been replicated (especially not in humans).

I would think the people involved in the war were exposed to many things (conditions and compounds) that many of us never will be.

None of these studies have shown anything conclusive about the "threat of poisoning from vaccines".

[kellyb]

I read the meeting pdf page about the adjuvant, and the presenter said that he had no doubt that it cleared from the body and didn't not go anywhere "unexpected". The meeting happened in 2000.

.

You read it the whole way through already?
I'm trying to find the rabbit radioisotope part, and I'm still only 1/3rd of the way through.
Haven't found it yet. I'm at page 101...which talks about the demise of the depot theory, where they found that the adjuvant could be injected 3 days before the antigen and the adjuvanted immune response is the same.

I'll let you know when I get to the rabbit part I remember. Specifically, there was a lot of variation between different rabbits. I'm pretty sure three days was the average, though.

ETA:
Ok...back to the aluminum clearance rate..
Go to page 111 of the FDA meeting...it's a sheep study, and they say at 24 hours there's still a lot of aluminum in the lymphatic fluid, and it decreases through day five. They also found aluminum in "cells" (he says probably macrophages or dendric cells) peaking in day one, and mostly cleared by day 5.

ETAA:
Found the rabbit study. Page 163.
They used a human dose, and used both al hydroxide and aluminum phosphate. It appeared in the blood within an hour, and made it into the urine within 5 days for one bunny, and 6 for the other. One bunny still hadn't excreted the al phosphate at 33 days, though.

Is the adjuvant in the anthrax vaccine different than in any other? It didn't look like it, and the findings have not been replicated (especially not in humans).
The anthrax adjuvant is the same aluminum hydroxide used in most other vaccines.
That study can't be replicated in humans, though. We can't go around dissecting human brains for experimental purposes. It would be nice to at least see a primate study of some kind on aluminum hydroxide, though. To my knowledge, that's the only animal study of the sort that's ever been done. It's pretty new, so it'll be a year or two before we see what the follow-up work is, if there is any at all.

[Eos of the Eons]

I finally tracked down a no-nonsense story on adjuvants:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=9615

Live vaccines, containing weakened forms of an infectious organism, generally work fine by themselves.

But vaccines containing dead organisms (inactivated vaccines) or pieces of the infectious organisms or their toxins (acellular or recombinant vaccines) generally need adjuvants to boost their effectiveness. Aluminum salts, known as alum, are the only adjuvant approved for use in the United States for routine preventive vaccines.


These compounds have been extensively studied and found to be safe:

It was found that aluminum did not significantly penetrate the cellular components of blood. Sixty percent of the intravenous dose was excreted in the urine and the remaining 40% was excreted in the feces.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/113340112/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

[robinson]

Second of all, aluminum is NOT found in Alzheimer lesions.

Please back up your statement, with verifiable proof.

Third of all, vaccines don't contain aluminum.

Please back up your statement, with verifiable proof.

There are many studies showing aluminum is connected to brain problems. Who knew?

Histochemical localization of aluminum in the rabbit CNS

G. Y. Wen1 and H. M. Wisniewski

"Summary: Aluminum was observed in the nucleolus, interchromatin granules, rough endoplasmic reticulum, free ribosomes, euchromatin, and the heterochromatin of the neuron. The association of aluminum with the first four r-RNA-containing cellular components and with the last two DNA-containing chromatins suggests the association of aluminum with the nucleic acids. The aluminum may interfere with the normal mechanism of the protein synthesis of r-RNA and of the transcription or gene modulation of DNA. Aluminum was also observed in the astrocytic process and in the nuclei of endothelial cells, pericytes, and the muscle cells of the blood vessels. The detection of aluminum in the pyrimidal cells of the cerebral cortex and hippocampus and in the spinal cord neurons, was observed 1 h after i. v. injection, indicating a rapid entry of aluminum from the injection site through the blood-brain barrier (BBB) to the neurons. Using Morin stain, pyramidal neurons of the cerebral cortex and hippocampus, motoneurons of spinal cord, ganglion cells, and bipolar cells of retina and Purkinje cells of cerebellum, exhibited yellow fluoroscence, with peak intensitiy at 560 nm. Tangles were observed in these six types of neurons. The granule cells of hippocampus and cerebellum and the photoreceptors of the retina exhibited green fluorescence with the peak intensity at 490–500 nm. Tangles were not observed in these three types of neurons."

(1) New York State Office of Mental Retardation and Developmental Disabilities, Institute for Basic Research in Developmental Disabilities, 1050 Forest Hill Road, 10314 Staten Island, NY, USA

Received: 7 May 1985 Accepted: 9 July 1985

Eos, if you are going to make claims, you might want to do some research first. That way you won't look dumb.

[Eos of the Eons]

Blah blah blah. We eat aluminum every day. The folks with Parkinsons or Alzheimers don't have a higher amount than anyone else. The body tissues with aluminum don't have it any higher concentrations than would be expected to be found with average consumption.

And I'll quote again:

Aluminum, the most abundant metal on Earth, is found in soil, in water and in air.

The intake of aluminum from food for an adult amounts to about 8 milligrams per day, although higher daily intakes have also been estimated. In general, approximately 95% of the normal daily intake of aluminum for an adult comes from food. For infants, daily intakes of aluminum are usually less than 1 milligram per day.

a number of other studies have shown no relationship between aluminum in drinking water and the onset of dementia. In addition, scientists have been unable to induce Alzheimer's disease-type changes in the brains of laboratory animals expo sed to aluminum, or to explain the absence of Alzheimer's disease-type changes in brains of patients suffering from dialysis encephalopathy. Some studies have also shown little or no accumulation of aluminum in the brain tissues of Alzheimer's patients.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/wate...uminium_e.html (http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/water-eau/drink-potab/aluminum-aluminium_e.html)


Also,
Alum salts in vaccines aren't around long enough and don't accumulate in body tissues. So they aren't the issue.


So we can link studies allll day, and there is still nothing conclusive about average consumption of aluminum being tied to any type of deterioration, let alone common brain disorders.

[kellyb]

These compounds have been extensively studied and found to be safe:



http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/113340112/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

That was in rats fed aluminum orally?
The uptake by the gut is around .01%, so I'm not sure how applicable that is.

[robinson]

Blah blah blah. We eat aluminum every day. :bs:

Straw men are so easy to demolish. Next time someone claims Parkinson's is connected to eating aluminum, I can use this to debunk em.. Cool. Of course, I don't know anybody who eats aluminum every day, but it could happen.

The folks with Parkinsons or Alzheimers don't have a higher amount than anyone else. :bs:

Why should anyone believe you? So far you have made false statements, and shrugged off your ignorance, and then tried to change the topic. Good luck with that.

The body tissues with aluminum don't have it any higher concentrations than would be expected to be found with average consumption.:bs:

Gee, should I listen to some anonymous person who is wrong about stuff, or read scientific studies by, well, scientist and stuff? There sure is a lot of science stuff about aluminum, vaccines and brains and nerves and stuff.

Murayama H, Shin RW, Higuchi J, Shibuya S, Muramoto T, Kitamoto T. Interaction of aluminum with PHFtau in Alzheimer's disease neurofibrillary degeneration evidenced by desferrioxamine-assisted chelating autoclave method.Am J Pathol. 1999 Sep;155(3):877-85.

Gosh, I don't know. Reading stuff is hard.


Shin RW, Kruck TP, Murayama H, Kitamoto T. A novel trivalent cation chelator Feralex dissociates binding of aluminum and iron associated with hyperphosphorylated tau of Alzheimer's disease. Brain Res. 2003 Jan 24;961(1):139-46.

That sounds all scientific and stuff. Wouldn't it be easier to just know something? Then I don't have to think.

Singer SM, Chambers CB, Newfry GA, Norlund MA, Muma NA. Tau in aluminum-induced neurofibrillary tangles. Neurotoxicology. 1997;18(1):63-76.

Damn. If I listen to Eos, I don't have to read anything. What to do?

Toda S, Yase Y. Effect of aluminum on iron-induced lipid peroxidation and protein oxidative modification of mouse brain homogenate. Biol Trace Elem Res. 1998 Feb;61(2):207-17.

Wait a minute. They did animal studies and stuff? I thought it was safe, or we don't know, or something.

Sayre LM, Perry G, Harris PL, Liu Y, Schubert KA, Smith MA. In situ oxidative catalysis by neurofibrillary tangles and senile plaques in Alzheimer's disease: a central role for bound transition metals. J Neurochem. 2000 Jan;74(1):270-9.

Hey! This is starting to be a serious drain on my time.

Xie CX, Yokel RA. Aluminum facilitation of iron-mediated lipid peroxidation is dependent on substrate, pH and aluminum and iron concentrations. Arch Biochem Biophys. 1996 Mar 15;327(2):222-6.

Jope RS. Modulation of phosphoinositide hydrolysis by NaF and aluminum in rat cortical slices. J Neurochem. 1988 Dec; 51(6): 1731-6.

Blair HC, Finch JL, Avioli R, Crouch EC, Slatopolsky E, Teitelbaum SL. Micromolar aluminum levels reduce 3H-thymidine incorporation by cell line UMR 106-01. Kidney Int. 1989 May; 35(5): 1119-25.

There is sure a lot of studies about aluminum. And rats. Can't we study people?

Jope RS. Modulation of phosphoinositide hydrolysis by NaF and aluminum in rat cortical slices. J Neurochem. 1988 Dec; 51(6): 1731-6.

Lai JC, Lim L, Davison AN. Effects of Cd2+, Mn2+, and Al3+ on rat brain synaptosomal uptake of noradrenaline and serotonin. J Inorg Biochem. 1982 Nov; 17(3): 215-25.


More rats.

Candura SM, Castildi AF, et al. Interaction of aluminum ions with phosphoinositide metabolism in rat cerebral cortical membranes. Life Sci 49: 1245-1252, 1991.

Publicover SJ. Brief exposure to the G-protein activator NaF/ AlCl3 induces prolonged enhancement of synaptic transmission in area of rat hippocampal slices. Expl Brain Res 84: 680-684, 1991.

Cmon! What about vaccines?

Lacson AG, D'Cruz CA, et al. Aluminum phagocytosis in quadriceps muscle following vaccination in children: relationship to macrophagic myofasciitis. Pediatr Dev Pathol 5: 151-158, 2002.

Flarend RE, Hem SL, et al. In vivo absorption of aluminum-containing vaccine adjuvants using 26 Al. Vaccine 15: 131401318, 1997.

Authier FJ Cherin P, et al. Central nervous system disease in patients with macrophagic myofasciitis. Brain 124: 974-983, 2001.

Gherardi RK. Lessons from macrophagic myofasciitis: towards definition of a vaccine adjuvant-related syndrome. Rev Neurol (Paris) 159: 162-164, 2003.

Bergfors E, Trollfors B, Inerot A. Unexpectantly high incidence of persistent itching and delayed hypersensitivity to aluminum in children after the used of absorbed vaccines from a single manufacturer. Vaccine 22: 64-69, 2003.

Whoops! I guess we can study peoples.

Mundy WR, Freudenrich TM, Kodavanti PR. Aluminum potentates glutamate-induced calcium accumulation and iron-induced oxygen free radical formation in primary neuronal cultures. Mol Chem Neuropathol 32: 41-57, 1997.

It does, of course, go on and on and on. Seems like there is a lot of science and stuff involved. It almost makes you wonder, if aluminum, injected into the bloodstream, is a lot different than eating traces of it.



























Nah. You would have to be a skeptic to think like that. Better to just believe what we are told. :i: There is nothing wrong, aluminum, like mercury, isn't that bad. Think of the children.:i:

[ktesibios]

The question that started this thread is about flu vaccines.

The list Robinson posted doesn't seem to mention any flu vaccines.

Does anyone have any evidence that flu vaccines contain aluminum?

If so, where is it?

If not, trying to link flu vaccines to Parkinson's via the questioned link between aluminum and Alzheimers fails due to subverted support.

[kellyb]

No, there's no aluminum in flu vaccines. I think everyone here agreed that was bunk early in the thread.

The aluminum thing was just an off topic sidetrack.

ETA: Although flu vaccines are going to be adjuvanted with aluminum in the near future. But I seriously doubt the woman mentioned in the OP was making some kind of prediction about the future. But if you want to fast-forward into the future 5-10 years, there are going to be all kinds of accusations directed towards influenza vaccines because of the new adjuvants they're going to start adding in to boost effectiveness and save antigens.

[Capsid]

It almost makes you wonder, if aluminum, injected into the bloodstream, is a lot different than eating traces of it.

Are you suggesting that vaccines are injected into the bloodstream? None is, the routes are either intramuscular, subcutaneous or oral.

[Cuddles]

Oh look, Robinson is making unfounded claims about vaccines again, while at the same time accusing others of not doing research and looking silly. What's that? He's going on about mercury again despite being proved wrong about it over and over again? Gosh, one would almost suppose he is a troll or something.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Has anyone here presented one tiny shred of evidence supporting the claim in the OP?

Do you really think the tiny amount of aluminum in a 0.5 cc flu shot once a year is in any way a significant source of aluminum? If that were the case then only people who got flu shots would have aluminum in their brains. Why? Because any other source of aluminum is either going to be much larger or not absorbed at all.

In other words, for the amount of aluminum in a flu shot to be significant, other sources would have to be very small. If other sources are great, then the flu shot wouldn't be adding more than a drop in a bucket.

Side note I'm sure no one cares about: We also have a few intradermal vaccines, Capsid. Rabies vaccine is given intradermally for example.

[Capsid]

Ooops forgot about intradermal.

[sophia8]

Back to the OP.
My guess is that Nemesis got it wrong - nobody has suggested a link between the flu vaccine and Parkinson's. However, it has been suggested that the Spanish Flu outbreak of 1918 may have caused a variety of neurological disorders, including Parkinson's, in survivors.
It is estimated that about 25-30% of the world population was infected and upward of 40 million people died in less than a year. About the same time, the world was hit by an unusual epidemic of neurological diseases. Circumstantial and epidemiological evidence links post-encephalitic Parkinsonism to the 1918 influenza pandemic, but a causal link was never formally proven as the pandemic occurred before the advent of modern virology.
www.parkinson.org (http://www.parkinson.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?&pid=274&srcid=274)
So Nemesis got it half-assed and backwards, and doesn't know what she's talking about!

If you want to carry on arguing about aluminium, take it to a new thread!

[robinson]

As to the topic at hand, it wasn't hard to find information on the Net that says, in no uncertain terms, that flu vaccines are linked to Parkinson's.

The name that stands out most is Hugh Fudenberg, MD. But his website doesn't actually have anything about it, but in an ironic twist, it has all kinds of stuff about Autism, Gulf War syndrome, and vaccines. Ack!

A radio show broadcast in Nov. 25, 2003, an un-named doctor stated 'If you have taken the flu shot more than 8 times in the last 10 years you have an 80% chance of getting Alzheimers'. I'm not saying that claim is true, I'm telling you why people might repeat something like this. It doesn't explain why people say flu vaccines are linked to Parkinson's however.

I would bet the Doctor was Hugh Fudenberg, but I have no evidence to show this is true.

So, the question in the OP is up for debate, but why the question came up is clear. It is a lot like the Thimerosal/Autism debate. Or the vaccine/Gulf War debate. Lots of smoke, maybe some fire, lots of shooting in the dark.

My opinion, based on the obvious facts, is that flu vaccines don't cause Alzheimer's, just like Mercury doesn't cause Autism. But I still avoid mercury, lead, aluminum, cadmium, radium, DDT, and a host of other heavy metals and toxic chemicals, because it doesn't hurt to play it safe.

I'm a skeptic when it comes to injecting stuff into my body.

Has anyone here presented one tiny shred of evidence supporting the claim in the OP?


There is a study quoted many times on questionable web sites, but I can't find the actual study published online. (Red flag)

I'm sure it suffers the same drawbacks that pop up concerning these sort of things. The Doctor who seems to know the most about the problem will have some kind of "treatment" for it, and will charge money for it, making the information suspect.

Like that HIV thing. The guy who claimed to discover it, patented a test to detect it, and even after splitting the profits with the people who actually discovered it, made a lot of money off of it. So there was suspicion cast on the science, based on the money/profit factor.

And in an attempt to not be a waste of your time, cause you have read this far down, into a questionable post, let me say that I value you, and the JREF forums, because I don't see much stuff like this anywhere else. I avoid CT forums, woo and questionable websites, so these sort of questions/issues don't appear on my screen. I get more information about strange stuff here, than anywhere else.

I also find a LOT of "evidence", "proof" and other high weirdness about these matters on web pages, but because I consider them suspect, I try not to link to them, sticking to sources that have, at least IMO, some credibility.

And as always, if you think I made some dumb claim, then simply link to it, you know, quote me, and point this out to the group. It isn't hard to do. If I am being dumb, and you point this out, I will become smarter. And thank you for it.

As for that unpleasant aluminum linked to problems thingy, there is a new study in Neuromolecular Medicine, February 2007, Volume 9, Issue 1 called

Aluminum, Neuron Death and Anthrax Vaccine

Aluminum adjuvant linked to gulf war illness induces motor neuron death in mice.

Petrik MS, Wong MC, Tabata RC, Garry RF, Shaw CA. Department of Ophthalmology and Program in Neuroscience, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.


"Whereas many environmental factors have been linked to GWI, the role of the anthrax vaccine has come under increasing scrutiny. Among the vaccine's potentially toxic components are the adjuvants aluminum hydroxide and squalene..... Aluminum-treated groups also showed significant motor neuron loss (35%) and increased numbers of astrocytes (350%) in the lumbar spinal cord....The findings suggest a possible role for the aluminum adjuvant in some neurological features associated with GWI and possibly an additional role for the combination of adjuvants."


A troll might start a topic about it, make some woo claims, stir up some crap with the rabid crowd that just can't stand evidence like this.

heh

Me, I don't care that much.

[kellyb]

Has anyone here presented one tiny shred of evidence supporting the claim in the OP?

Do you really think the tiny amount of aluminum in a 0.5 cc flu shot once a year is in any way a significant source of aluminum? If that were the case then only people who got flu shots would have aluminum in their brains. Why? Because any other source of aluminum is either going to be much larger or not absorbed at all.

In other words, for the amount of aluminum in a flu shot to be significant, other sources would have to be very small. If other sources are great, then the flu shot wouldn't be adding more than a drop in a bucket.



But there's no aluminum in flu shots!
They're not adjuvanted with anything right now, except one in the UK that uses squalene.
This is the third or 4th time in this thread I've said this.

[Dymanic]

Although flu vaccines are going to be adjuvanted with aluminum in the near future.
I know that current work on the development of pre-pandemic vaccines involves the use of adjuvants, but I wasn't aware that there are plans to make this standard practice for seasonal vaccines. Since huge numbers of unused doses of seasonal vax are dumped at the end of each season, antigen sparing strategies don't seem to make as much sense there, especially when you're talking about "novel proprietary adjuvants", which sounds, first and foremost, expensive. It also sounds secretive, with names like "MF59" adding to the aura of mystery. A lot of people will assume that whatever the heck's in that there adjuvant stuff, it can only be bad. With seasonal uptake already problematic, further clouding the water with adjuvants seems like a questionable economic strategy.

I still avoid mercury, lead, aluminum, cadmium, radium, DDT, and a host of other heavy metals and toxic chemicals, because it doesn't hurt to play it safe.

I'm a skeptic when it comes to injecting stuff into my body.
Of the "host of heavy metals and toxic chemicals", which ones trouble you most as far as flu vaccines (specifically) are concerned?

[robinson]

None of them bother me, as I have never had a flu vaccine. And it doesn't seem that any Flu shots have aluminum in them. Thimerosal yes, aluminum no.

[kellyb]

I know that current work on the development of pre-pandemic vaccines involves the use of adjuvants, but I wasn't aware that there are plans to make this standard practice for seasonal vaccines.


Since they're going to be putting the H5N1 antigens into the seasonal flu shots, it'll all be the same.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/events/2005/03_WHO_Klaus_Stohr.pdf


Increase seasonal vaccination coverage: developed countries
– By 60% thus reaching WHO's vaccination target for 2010
– Costs: cost-effective/cost-saving intervention

H5N1 vaccine use in seasonal vaccine



Since huge numbers of unused doses of seasonal vax are dumped at the end of each season, antigen sparing strategies don't seem to make as much sense there, especially when you're talking about "novel proprietary adjuvants", which sounds, first and foremost, expensive.

Are you talking about the mysterious GSK adjuvant system?
Here's what they have to say about it...

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/influenza/panflu/news/jul2606glaxo.html

Jul 26, 2006 (CIDRAP News) – An H5N1 avian influenza vaccine made by GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) triggered a good immune response in human volunteers at a much lower dose than other H5N1 vaccines reported so far, which means that hundreds of millions of doses could be produced by next year, the company announced today.

Since the DoD is awarding contracts in the multibillions, I don't think the price of whatever it is, is going to be an issue. For the record, I'm about 50% sure it's a bacterial lipopolysaccaride TLR adjuvant, which shouldn't be expensive to produce, I don't think.


It also sounds secretive, with names like "MF59" adding to the aura of mystery.
It's just squalene; shark liver oil. Not too mysterious, in my opinion. Novartis has been using it in the UK for quite a while already.

A lot of people will assume that whatever the heck's in that there adjuvant stuff, it can only be bad.
Has anyone made a fuss over Fluad so far?

With seasonal uptake already problematic, further clouding the water with adjuvants seems like a questionable economic strategy.

It's now a military operation as far as financing goes. I'm not sure how other nations will handle it, but I don't see it making a dent in the budget compared to Iraq.

[Dymanic]

Since they're going to be putting the H5N1 antigens into the seasonal flu shots, it'll all be the same.
Well, not really. The pre-pandemic vaccines require adjuvant due to limited availability of antigen; even if there were enough H5N1 antigen, adding it to the seasonal vax wouldn't make sense prior to the emergence of a pandemic strain. After a pandemic, sure. The fact that some of the experimental vaccines have raised titres against a given strain of H5N1 isn't much guarantee that they will do so against a yet-to-emerge pandemic strain. Stilll, better than nothing, but a better-than-nothing pre-pandemic vaccine and a better-than-nothing pre-pandemic vaccine wedded to a seasonal vaccine aren't the same thing -- especially if you have to add an adjuvant to make it work.

In various internet discussions, I've seen it mentioned that there are actual plans to add H5N1 antigens to seasonal vaccines, but I haven't seen anything to confirm that -- including the pdf you linked, which sort of mentions it as maybe a cool idea, but one for somewhere down the road. Can you give me anything more on that?

Since the DoD is awarding contracts in the multibillions, I don't think the price of whatever it is, is going to be an issue.Right; with a pre-pandemic vaccine. With seasonal vaccine, though, price IS an issue. Is DoD awarding contracts for production (or R&D) of seasonal vaccines?

It's just squalene; shark liver oil. Not too mysterious, in my opinion.Don't forget sorbitan trioleate and polysorbate 50. If those don't sound mysterious (and scary) to you, the thing to note is that what counts is not your opinion, but the opinions of all those might-have-been recipients of unused doses of flu vaccine.

Has anyone made a fuss over Fluad so far?What... you mean anyone? Yes. Absolutely. I think I could find you somebody willing to make a fuss over the whole idea of a vaccine and everything in it, including the very viral antigens that make the whole idea work; they got the flu from the vax, whatever. I could direct you to entire online communities of them (and they're growing). You want to increase uptake, that's what you're up against. It's an image problem. Adjuvant makes it worse. See what I'm saying?

[kellyb]

Well, not really. The pre-pandemic vaccines require adjuvant due to limited availability of antigen; even if there were enough H5N1 antigen, adding it to the seasonal vax wouldn't make sense prior to the emergence of a pandemic strain. After a pandemic, sure. The fact that some of the experimental vaccines have raised titres against a given strain of H5N1 isn't much guarantee that they will do so against a yet-to-emerge pandemic strain. Stilll, better than nothing, but a better-than-nothing pre-pandemic vaccine and a better-than-nothing pre-pandemic vaccine wedded to a seasonal vaccine aren't the same thing -- especially if you have to add an adjuvant to make it work.

I'm not sure why you think it wouldn't make sense?
The ultimate goal is to get the manufacturing capabilities expanded to the point of staving off a pandemic. Ideally, it seems, billions of doses should be able to be produced. But having manufacturers growing antigens that just get thrown away is pointless and counter-productive financially, as is having manufacturing plants just sitting there not doing anything. Also, there are always going to be new influenza viruses emerging, so even if H5N1 isn't "it", by expanding the influenza immunization program to include whatever might come next, we're more prepared for the future indefinitely. By keeping everything running we'll never be caught up that proverbial creek without a paddle ever again (like we were with H5N1...or almost were with H5N1...or however you personally view the situation with H5N1 right now. :) )
So why throw everything away when we can just stay on top of emerging viruses and make the seasonal flu vaccines prepandemic forever, and if/when it comes down to it, have "the" important virus in there after it's identified?

In various internet discussions, I've seen it mentioned that there are actual plans to add H5N1 antigens to seasonal vaccines, but I haven't seen anything to confirm that -- including the pdf you linked, which sort of mentions it as maybe a cool idea, but one for somewhere down the road. Can you give me anything more on that?

How about this?

http://www.fda.gov/cber/gdlns/panfluvac.htm

Guidance for Industry
Clinical Data Needed to Support the Licensure of Pandemic Influenza Vaccines

CLINICAL DATA TO SUPPORT THE LICENSURE OF PANDEMIC INFLUENZA VACCINES
Licensure of pandemic influenza vaccines may be sought either as a supplement to an existing Biologics License Application (BLA) or as a new BLA using the accelerated approval regulations (21 CFR Part 601 Subpart E). This section provides recommendations for clinical data that would support such approvals for pandemic influenza vaccines.

Approval of a Pandemic Influenza Vaccine as a Supplement to a U.S. Licensed Trivalent Inactivated Influenza Vaccine
As discussed above, clinical trials would be needed to support the appropriate dose and regimen of the pandemic influenza vaccine. These trials should include an assessment of immunogenicity and safety. Data from these trials should be submitted as a clinical supplement to the existing BLA. Once a pandemic influenza vaccine against a new influenza subtype has been licensed, further clinical data with a variant of that subtype would likely not be needed for licensure. Information to support a change in the viral subtype variant included in the vaccine should be submitted as a manufacturing supplement to the existing BLA.

If they just throw the new virus in with their seasonal vaccine, they don't even have to submit an application for a new product. Right off the bat, that option is being made the path of least resistance.

And then further down, they talk about adjuvants:

Adjuvanted Pandemic Vaccines
Small studies of inactivated pandemic influenza vaccines have shown that more antigen per dose and more than one dose are needed to elicit immune responses comparable to those elicited following a single dose of an annual trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine (Ref. 23). Use of an adjuvant might reduce the amount of antigen needed to elicit immune responses to protect against influenza illness. All influenza vaccine products formulated with an adjuvant should be submitted as new products. Data supporting their approval should be submitted to a new BLA.


Dose and Formulation Selection
At an early stage of development, the sponsor should demonstrate the added value of the adjuvant given with the antigen. Assuming that the vaccine is a hemagglutinin-based product, the HI antibody assay may be appropriate to evaluate the immune response.

A comparative study of adjuvanted vs. non-adjuvanted vaccines should demonstrate that the immune response elicited by the adjuvanted antigen is significantly better than that elicited by the same antigen alone. Differences in HI antibody titer and seroconversion should be meaningful (i.e., significant by assessment of p-value). For study sample size determination, the sponsor should pre-define what would constitute a meaningful difference. As an example, CBER may view a 0.3 log10 mean difference (same as a two-fold difference in GMT ratio) for the HI antibody titers and a 15% difference in seroconversion rates as meaningful differences. The sponsor should also justify values assumed for the standard deviation of the log10 HI antibody titers. The HI antibody titers will typically require log transformation (i.e., HI antibody titers converted to log10 HI antibody titers) in order to produce data that may satisfy the normality assumption of certain parametric statistical tests. A t-test (or Wilcoxon rank-sum test if the normality assumption does not hold) may be used to compare the mean log10 HI antibody titers, and the Fisher’s exact test may be used to compare the seroconversion rates. Both tests should be one-sided at the 2.5% significance level. The study should be adequately powered to meet both analysis endpoints. Alternative analyses, or ones allowing pre-specified covariate adjustment, may be acceptable and should be discussed in advance with CBER.

Selection of an appropriate dose and formulation should also be guided by the safety profile of the formulations and regimens being studied.

So it really, really looks like they're going to have to use an adjuvant for the prepandemic strains. No way around that. And they have to submit an application for a new product to get an adjuvant in there. And if they don't put the new virus in with the season ones, that would be an additional series of clinical trial they'd have to do first. But adjuvant the seasonal vaccine first, and two birds can be hit with one stone.
(this is how I see it, at least...I have also read about this elsewhere, but it would take me a minute to find the other references to adjuvanting the seasonal vaccines...I'll look for them again...)

Right; with a pre-pandemic vaccine. With seasonal vaccine, though, price IS an issue. Is DoD awarding contracts for production (or R&D) of seasonal vaccines?

I guess technically, they're awarding contracts for production of a supplement that will most likely be added to the seasonal vaccines.

Don't forget sorbitan trioleate and polysorbate 50. If those don't sound mysterious (and scary) to you, the thing to note is that what counts is not your opinion, but the opinions of all those might-have-been recipients of unused doses of flu vaccine.
There are a lot of other reasons why people choose not to get flu vaccines besides scary sounding "chemicals". The most popular one seems to be some vague notion of "Don't believe in it".

What... you mean anyone? Yes. Absolutely. I think I could find you somebody willing to make a fuss over the whole idea of a vaccine and everything in it, including the very viral antigens that make the whole idea work; they got the flu from the vax, whatever. I could direct you to entire online communities of them (and they're growing). You want to increase uptake, that's what you're up against. It's an image problem. Adjuvant makes it worse. See what I'm saying?
The sort of people who are going to refuse a flu vaccine because of an adjuvant aren't going to get them under any circumstance, most likely. Most people don't even know what an adjuvant even is. And the sort of people who get flushots religiously aren't going to care if an adjuvant is added. Unless there's some kind of media hysteria over it, no one will even notice or care. Yes, there are a few folks watching with interest, but they are very far and few between.

[SquishyDave]

Back to the OP.
My guess is that Nemesis got it wrong - nobody has suggested a link between the flu vaccine and Parkinson's. However, it has been suggested that the Spanish Flu outbreak of 1918 may have caused a variety of neurological disorders, including Parkinson's, in survivors.

www.parkinson.org (http://www.parkinson.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?&pid=274&srcid=274)
So Nemesis got it half-assed and backwards, and doesn't know what she's talking about!

If you want to carry on arguing about aluminium, take it to a new thread!
Thanks for that. Between you and the ever delightful Eos, I have all the info I need, so I don't mind if this thread goes down a tangent.

[Dymanic]

I'm not sure why you think it wouldn't make sense?
The ultimate goal is to get the manufacturing capabilities expanded to the point of staving off a pandemic. Ideally, it seems, billions of doses should be able to be produced.
We're a VERY long way from being able to do that. We're far enough away from being able to produce a prepandemic vax in quantities sufficient to cover even a comfortable number of those with jobs most critical to keeping things running (and even then, we don't know if it will actually work, since, in the real world, antibody titres don't automatically equal immunity). Once we can do at least that, what... are we going to toss those precious doses in with the regular seasonal vax only to watch them go out with the garbage at the end of the season? Or do we make a dose of the seasonal/pandemic vax a perk for ambulance drivers, power plant operators, and garbage collectors, while everyone else takes their chances with alcohol gel hand sanitizer and black elderberry extract? It just don't add up, I tell ya.

The ultimate goal is to get the manufacturing capabilities expanded to the point of staving off a pandemic.
It's a tough challenge, especially when recent years have seen pharmaceutical companies opting out of the flu vax business altogether due to the limited and unpredictable nature of the demand combined with the awkwardness of producing a product that has to be reformulated every year.

But having manufacturers growing antigens that just get thrown away is pointless and counter-productive financially, as is having manufacturing plants just sitting there not doing anything.It's a REALLY tough challenge. We can either prop up the manufacturers with public money, or try to sweeten things up enough for them so that they can ramp up production by a zillion percent without having to report to their shareholders that while they did a lot of good in the world, they lost a ton of money in the process. Hey, here's an idea: maybe the U.S. government could go into the vaccine manufacturing business. The masses would be standing in line to get THAT vax, eh?

How about this?

http://www.fda.gov/cber/gdlns/panfluvac.htm
Here are the parts that stand out for me:

"This guidance document is for comment purposes only."

"This draft guidance, when finalized, will represent the Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA’s) current thinking on this topic. It does not create or confer any rights for or on any person and does not operate to bind FDA or the public"

All I've seen so far is some creative ideas about how that might work. If there are any actual PLANS, I'd be very interested to see them.

So why throw everything away when we can just stay on top of emerging viruses and make the seasonal flu vaccines prepandemic forever, and if/when it comes down to it, have "the" important virus in there after it's identified?"Prepandemic forever". That's kinda catchy. I wouldn't be surprised if it were less than fifty years before the state of the art of influenza virology would actually make something like that possible.

The sort of people who are going to refuse a flu vaccine because of an adjuvant aren't going to get them under any circumstance, most likely. Most people don't even know what an adjuvant even is.I certainly agree that there is a staunch core of anti-vaxers for whom the former is true (though not necessarily the latter) -- though, in the teeth of a pandemic, I'd expect a lot of hasty conversions. The rest, who knows? In this day and age, it's never safe to assume that people are unable to put their fingers on a lot of information (or misinformation) about a subject. In MY pharmaceutical company, we'd keep seasonal vax and prepandemic vax separate.

[kellyb]

We're a VERY long way from being able to do that. We're far enough away from being able to produce a prepandemic vax in quantities sufficient to cover even a comfortable number of those with jobs most critical to keeping things running (and even then, we don't know if it will actually work, since, in the real world, antibody titres don't automatically equal immunity). Once we can do at least that, what... are we going to toss those precious doses in with the regular seasonal vax only to watch them go out with the garbage at the end of the season? Or do we make a dose of the seasonal/pandemic vax a perk for ambulance drivers, power plant operators, and garbage collectors, while everyone else takes their chances with alcohol gel hand sanitizer and black elderberry extract? It just don't add up, I tell ya.
Well, no, we're not there yet. But we're well beyong the "all the gears are in place" phase, and well into active stockpiling. Exectly how mass production pans out is anyone's guess at this point, since the adjuvant research is still coming in.

It's a tough challenge, especially when recent years have seen pharmaceutical companies opting out of the flu vax business altogether due to the limited and unpredictable nature of the demand combined with the awkwardness of producing a product that has to be reformulated every year.

It seems that the miltibillion dollar contracts have helped out quite a bit with that. Vero cell production and canine cells lines are now actively producing, as well.

It's a REALLY tough challenge. We can either prop up the manufacturers with public money, or try to sweeten things up enough for them so that they can ramp up production by a zillion percent without having to report to their shareholders that while they did a lot of good in the world, they lost a ton of money in the process.

It looks like both methods are being used.

Hey, here's an idea: maybe the U.S. government could go into the vaccine manufacturing business. The masses would be standing in line to get THAT vax, eh?

I've actually been an advocate of that idea for a while. But that discussion belongs in the politics forum, I think. :)

Here are the parts that stand out for me:

"This guidance document is for comment purposes only."

"This draft guidance, when finalized, will represent the Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA’s) current thinking on this topic. It does not create or confer any rights for or on any person and does not operate to bind FDA or the public"

All I've seen so far is some creative ideas about how that might work. If there are any actual PLANS, I'd be very interested to see them.

Right...the FDA is is saying "Here's what we need. Help us help you get this thing going. How can we work together and make this happen as quickly as possible?"
So no, nothing's set in stone yet, but it's still enough to put together a fairly coherent picture of how it's in the process of playing out and how it's probably going to go down.
You can see it reflected in statements coming from industry, as well.

From Novartis (the Fluad, squalene adjuvanted influenza vaccine makers)

http://www.who.int/vaccine_research/diseases/influenza/DelGiudice_revised.pdf

MF59-adjuvanted H5N3 vaccine
protects against drifted H5N1 strains


The present strategy to control a pandemic influenza can be transformed in a
strategy to prevent the pandemic without waiting for the pandemic to start

And their US clinical trials right now:

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00434733?order=15

Purpose

This study is designed to evaluate the immunogenicity, safety and tolerability of 2 doses of FLUAD-H5N1 vaccine compared to 2 doses of trivalent, interpandemic FLUAD, each administered 3 weeks apart.

[Skeptic Ginger]

But there's no aluminum in flu shots!
They're not adjuvanted with anything right now, except one in the UK that uses squalene.
This is the third or 4th time in this thread I've said this.It was late and I was getting careless making points without paying attention to details. Thanks for the multiple reminders.

[Dymanic]

it doesn't seem that any Flu shots have aluminum in them. Thimerosal yes, aluminum no.
Not all flu vaccines have thimerosal, either. Those packaged as single doses don't; nor do the live vaccines.

[ysabella]

I've actually seen web pages talking about the dangers of squalene. Which is weird, because humans produce it. Someone once told me that our nose grease has some in it. Wikipedia would seem to agree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nose_grease). What my friend said was that watchmakers would use a bit of nose grease on watch innards, Wikipedia says something about telescope users.