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The Mad Linguist
11th August 2003, 04:40 PM
The eternal issue of "defining an atheist" came up in a debate between Interesting Ian and Stimpson J Cat on Cleopatra's thread about atheists asking for proof of God.

Stimpson J Cat said:

... You will find several common usages of the term "atheism", which range from simple lack of belief, to positive assertions against specific conceptions of God, to positive assertions against all conceptions of God... Like I said, lack of belief is the most general definition. If somebody says they are an atheist, then that is about the only thing you can assume about their position... In other words, technically speaking, an atheist is anybody who is not a theist.

Interesting Ian, on the other hand, defended another definition of atheism:

Atheism is not a lack of belief in a "God" (that's agnosticism), but rather the positive belief that there is no "God". Moreover this "God" need not be personnel, and need not have created the Universe, nor need interact with it...... Atheism means a rejection (not lack of belief) of any reality or existent which could reasonably be labelled as "God". Not a lack of belief in a personal God, but a rejection of any God whether personal or impersonal. .... You cannot declare that those who believe in an impersonal God are atheists!

(apologies for taking both of you slightly out of context, but I’ve tried to capture your gists…)

This brought to my mind an issue which has troubled me for some time, but I didn’t want to derail that thread, so I’m starting this one instead.

As part of my training in formal linguistics, I’ve been taught about two important semantic theories – i.e. theories about how words mean what they mean, and how we decide what entities a word can apply to. I’ll explain them briefly.

A theory of meaning based on necessary and sufficient conditions defines an X in terms of a list of properties that an entity must possess to be considered an X. So for instance, if we are defining “bird”, we would say something like:

a) warm blooded
b) has feathers
c) toothless jaw
d) beak

and however many more we need to add until we’ve excluded everything that IS a bird and excluded everything that ISN’T a bird.

Another theory is based on the notion of a prototype. This is the idea that for each word, we hold in our heads a kind of an idea of a “good example” or “prototype” of the kind of things that that word can apply to. So for example, for “bird”, we hold in our heads a picture of a prototypical “bird” – maybe a duck, or a sparrow, or something like that – and other things are rated as “birds” or not based on how alike they are to our conception of the prototype.

Two key points must be made here. First, the category is graded; so some things are more “birdy” than others, there are good and bad examples of bird – ostriches, penguins and vultures might be notable bad examples. Secondly, the category has a fuzzy boundary – the set of “bird” shades slowly into the category of “not bird”. This is more obvious if you consider “cups” and “mugs” – two separate words, referring to drinking vessels of different dimensions, but experiments have shown that speakers have no clear cut-off point for when something is a cup and when it is a mug as the dimensions of one slowly change to the dimensions of the other.

Now these two theories don’t work together – by an approach based on necessary and sufficient conditions (NSC), fuzzy categories and good examples are nonsensical. Anything that is a bird is an equally good example of a bird – a penguin just as much as a robin. Something is either a bird or not a bird, with nothing between (yes, yes, archaeopteryx – all that shows is that the categories in our language aren’t designed to cope with extinct fauna).

As it turns out, the prototype theory (PT) is correct and NSC isn’t. There are problematic issues that can only be resolved using PT – for example, a question such as “Is the Pope a bachelor?” Clearly, by an NSC definition of “bachelor”, he must be: he is an adult unmarried male. But equally clearly, the Pope isn’t who you think of when you hear the word “bachelor”. You think of a young man, living alone in the marriage market. That is the prototypical bachelor. If the Pope is a member of the category “bachelor”, he’s a very marginal member – way out in the realm of “bad examples”.

There are various other arguments. But the upshot is that in human language, we use a system of meaning based on prototypes. This is pretty well established now in linguistics.

Going back to the point with which I began this excessively lengthy post, it seems to me that Ian and Stimpy’s differing definitions of “atheist” are demonstrably based on a use of PT and a use of NSC. Ian’s definition seems to be based on a prototype atheist – someone who rejects and refuses to believe in any God at all. Others are then labelled “atheist” or not depending on how similar they are to this prototype. (Note: prototypical does not equal typical, although sadly it often equals stereotypical.)

Stimpy seems to be taking a much more NSC approach: he looks at the group of entities referred to as atheists, sees what they have in common, and from this devises a list of necessary conditions – which I will state succinctly as “lacking belief in the God of Theism” – because that is all that atheists have in common.

Now, I must admit I have a great deal more sympathy to Stimpy’s definition than Ian’s. When I say I am an atheist, I mean no more than that I don’t believe in the God of Theism. But this goes directly against the way that meaning actually works. Let me demonstrate this. If we define “atheist” to mean “human being who is not a theist” (which is the same thing as “human being lacking belief in the God of Theism”), then we can see that this includes not only the people you’d expect it to include, but also the Buddha, Albert Einstein (since the pantheistic God is not the theistic God), Hal Bidlack (since the deist’s God is not the theistic God), Mahatma Gandhi (since, if I understand Hinduism correctly, their God is not the theistic God), Augustus Caesar (a polytheist: many nonomnipotent gods is not the single theistic god), the believers in an impersonal God mentioned by Interesting Ian in that other thread, and – to cut a long story short – all kinds of people who we would not normally expect to be defined as atheists.

Therefore, if we create necessary and sufficient conditions based on all the people who say (justifiably) that they are atheists, we end up with a definition that includes other people who were not in the original group. This is obviously not ideal.

In contrast, Ian’s definition of “atheist” is based in the mode of thinking that we know to actually underlie how meaning is used in language. While his definition has the failing that it characterises some (many?) atheists incorrectly (as expected under PT: not all Xs possess all the relevant attributes of the prototypical X), he does not run into the problem of his definition either a) excluding persons to whom the word X is actually applied or b) including persons to whom the word X has never been applied.

But let us consider the nature of philosophical argument. Arguments based in logic often utilise syllogisms which are very much dependant on the NSC way of thinking. Science itself is, I think, quite possibly dependant on this type of classification. Consider the following:

1) A bird is an animal with feathers and a toothless beak.
2) This animal has feathers and a toothless beak.
3) Therefore this animal is a bird.

This argument is, I belief, valid: given the premises in 1) and 2) one cannot avoid the conclusion in 3). But note that this is a mode of thinking that is implicitly based in an NSC approach to meaning. Could such an argument ever handle the “good examples” and “bad examples” necessary for PT? Could it cope with categories whose edges are fuzzy in an unknown fashion? I cannot see how it would. Science, it seems to me (though I am pushing well beyond my area of expertise with this statement) is also dependent on the capability to make harsh categorisations: something is either an X or not an X, and there is no notion of reference to a prototypical X.

I see this as an inescapable problem. The system of meaning that our language runs on is incompatible with the system of meaning needed to argue logically or to utilise science. Stimpy’s definition of “atheist” is the one you would need to use in a philosophical argument, I think; yet Ian’s is the one which has been constructed in the way that everyday meanings are actually constructed in language. In a logical argument, it might well turn out that Hal Bidlack (sorry to keep using you as an example, Hal) is, technically speaking, an atheist according to the NSC definition. But in everyday terms he rejects the label, and with good reason: his beliefs do not resemble those of the prototypical atheist to any significant degree. There seems to be a gulf opening up between the philosophical-scientific language and the everyday language – and this seems far more fundamental than any concern over the technical terminology or jargon that philosophers and scientists may use.

So my question is this: our everyday definitions, negotiated socially with other speakers of our language, are based on the fuzzy logic of prototype theory. But our philosophical arguments must be built on clear definitions using necessary and sufficient conditions. Can we ever reconcile the two? Can a philosophical argument be translated successfully to everyday language? (Is “translation” even the right word for the kind of thing we’d need to happen here?) Can any logical debate ever be successfully undertaken without departing from the everyday way of making meaning? And if we do depart from everyday ways of making meaning, how do we make our logic relevant to life again?

Sorry about the length of this, but I wanted to have something substantial to say before I started my first thread :)

The Mad Linguist

Mercutio
11th August 2003, 05:37 PM
Wow. Very, very well done. I am duly impressed.

Ok, so...short answer. "Can we ever reconcile the two?" No. Not without putting a lot of philosophers out of work.

As you no doubt know, Wittgenstein's later work focused on this question; he compared the "language-games" of philosophy with the meanings of words as they are used by speakers in a language community. Anyone who is interested in your question (and really, who would not be?) could do worse than to read Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations or his notebooks.

My interest in this is when the philosophical definition (PT, I think you said) is influenced by the more common usage (NSC?)--when, for instance, the language we commonly use to talk about "memories", "thoughts", etc. (which I will argue are nouns only metaphorically, standing in for processes of remembering and thinking) in an NSC sort of manner, are dissected as if they were actual entities (in a PT sort of manner).

Your question gets at the very heart of some of the assumptions of consciousness itself, and thereby assumptions of soul, of continuity after death, of any number of seemingly inexplicable constructs. I will be very interested in the debate here...:D

Dymanic
11th August 2003, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by The Mad Linguist

Can a philosophical argument be translated successfully to everyday language?
Or a paleontological argument, or an acoustical argument, or an agricultural argument...

Wherever there is a specialized area of thought, dialects emerge. These dialects permit rapid exchange of ideas by extensive use of chunked concepts. In addition to the sub-concepts of which it consists (and which must be mastered before the concept can be grasped), closely associated with a concept may be a cluster of meta-concepts, enabling one versed in a particular dialect to percieve several levels of meaning at once -- the central meaning of a term, as well as how widely it is accepted, which thinkers spoke against it and the arguments they used, how much credibility each of them has, what school of thought he belongs to, etc.

In other words, there is a big problem with what might be called compression. So how do you go about unzipping a concept that has been so massively compressed? Or, more importantly, on whom do you rely to perform this delicate work? A lot of things may not unzip the same way in the hands of different unzippers, so much being subject to individual interpretation (and even influenced by such things as politics and personal agendas).

Philosophy seems to have set for itself an ambitious goal: to refine concepts to a degree that permits all meaning to reside at the signal end of an exchange. Even more ambitiously, it has undertaken this even before it has completely answered the question: "What is the meaning of meaning?"

So then my answer to your question:

No -- it's hopeless. Not if successful means perfectly and in a completely unbiased way.

On the other hand, you can teach physics to a child; his understanding will be a child's understanding, but you could still view this as a 'success'.

evildave
11th August 2003, 09:57 PM
Apparently, from the samples given, we have a person who is simply defining terms broadly, and another who is defining terms with spin.

To paraphrase a bit, a few common "atheist" definitions...

1. "Atheism is a lack belief in any gods."

2. "Atheism rejects all possibility of any possible Gods."

3. "Atheists hate God and want to destroy America."

4. "Atheists worship Satan."

It doesn't help that dictionaries have multiple definitions for the same words (because people commonly use them for different things).

It also doesn't help that people make up new cultish definitions for words and phrases all the time, and pass them on.

It certainly doesn't help that people build models of words based on experiences and early teachings. Therefore, to be exposed to a cultish definition like "Atheists worship Satan" can skew the message from all possible communication containing "Atheist" in it, just as seeing an ice cream cone can send someone over the edge because they saw their mommy die while they were eating one at an impressionable young age.

The problem is engaging people with reason, who are trained to think emotionally or in terms of some "absolute" authority. I don't despair of the possibility, but I must admit that the task is Herculean (no, just because I use that word does not mean I believe in Greek gods).

Like Dymanic's examples, you would need to educate someone (assuming they are willing to be educated; toss in the towel if they're not) to a degree necessary to understand the basic concepts.

Unfortunately, many people's religious indoctrination begins at a very early age, and includes damnation fear against many kinds of learning, especially where it contradicts an established orthodoxy.

Floyt
12th August 2003, 01:38 AM
My impression is, the translation needs to be done subconsciously and aided by repetition. All the philosophical arguments I ever participated in that really flowed along like an easy conversation had all participants talking and thinking real-time NSC (good handle btw). The problem for me frequently is in, as you say, re-translating the findings into 'normal' patterns, and that seems to work better the more often the topic is talked about. Everyday meaning then kind of coalesces out of thin air. This is not especially gratifying, but seems to be how things work. Hmm :(


@Dnyamic:

Originally posted by Dymanic

In other words, there is a big problem with what might be called compression. So how do you go about unzipping a concept that has been so massively compressed? Or, more importantly, on whom do you rely to perform this delicate work? A lot of things may not unzip the same way in the hands of different unzippers, so much being subject to individual interpretation (and even influenced by such things as politics and personal agendas).


It seems to me you've got it the wrong way round. Isn't everyday language the instance of "high compression", working with prototype handles instead of lengthy lists of characteristics? And isn't therefore "unzipping" the translation of everyday language into philosophy speak? This is not were the problem crops up, though - throwing specifications at a concept until it's nailed down works just fine. The difficulty lies the other way, compressing clear-cut NSC concepts into fuzzy prototypes. And that is not what you are saying, or did I get it wrong?

cheers
floyt

Dymanic
12th August 2003, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Floyt

Isn't everyday language the instance of "high compression", working with prototype handles instead of lengthy lists of characteristics?
I'd have to say that 'everyday language' is a category which contains innumerable dialects and specialized areas, making it subject, yes, to compression as is philosophy. Presumably though, hopefully, compression in philosophy is the result of a more deliberate process, great care being taken at every step to minimize the number of little nooks and crannies where ambiguity and unsupported assumptions may hide.
throwing specifications at a concept until it's nailed down works just fine.
I don't think this does work all that well. The problem is that you can never reach the point TML described above, where you have...included everything that IS a bird and excluded everything that ISN’T a bird. As you loosen the definition so as to be sure all proper instances are included, you increase the risk of including some that do not belong; and as you tighten the definition so as to be sure to exclude those, you increase the risk that some proper members will be excluded. You can continue to add rules until doomsday, but there will always be gaps between them; it's like trying to name all the fractional values between zero and one.
And isn't therefore "unzipping" the translation of everyday language into philosophy speak?
I think what philosophy attempts to do is unzip the everyday language, eliminate the ambiguity and unsupported assumption it contains, and re-zip it in accordance with the higher philosophical standard.

Tormac
12th August 2003, 12:11 PM
The debates between the "soft sciences" and the "hard sciences" about whether one is correct in "deconstructing" or criticizing the other is riddled with the misunderstanding of ideas, and jumping to conclusions based on “prototypes”. Often groups will use every day terms as specialized jargon, and assume that their meaning is understood in cross disciplinary fields, or members of other academic disciplines will read works that have common terms that are used in specific jargon, and will assume that they understand what is being said when they do not.

The Sokal hoax has to be the most famous of a case like this, where differing groups of academics come close to intellectual guerilla warfare. While the hoax itself is a member of the physical sciences poking fun at cultural studies, I suspect that they (or he) are just as guilty at not understanding what the cultural studies critics are getting at. Or maybe worse yet (and I hate to admit it, but likely) neither side is really interested at understanding what the other is getting at, but just interested in finding evidence that supports views.

(If you are not familiar with the case, it is hilarious (well ok maybe if you are really nerdy it is hilarious). The following link talks about the case.

http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/#papers

The problem with compression may be over come, although often only with long, painful debate over what “atheist” really means. A more serious problem than compression is the connotative attachment of a “prototype”. After a while an agreement may be reached over a definition of a word, but it is unlikely that one side or the other will change a connotation that shades the value of the word. Even if the word being used is not an abstract ideal, but a physical object, say the specific car, the Mazda Miata.

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139966

This is a thread from a roadster forum that I hang out at. It started out as an innocent thread, but quickly degenerated into a flame war, first about the Miata, and whether it is a “chic” car, and then totally degenerated into a flame war over the lineage of the other car in question (a Honda s2000), compared to a third group of cars, the Nissan “Z’s”. The differing connotations of a physical object (Miata) destroyed the meaning of the thread. (Note if you are not into import cars this thread may be a long and painful read).