Saw Derren Brown live last night!

[Victor Meldrew]

Saw Derren Brown live last night - a very good show.

The first part (I think) was mainly magic - not that I could explain how he did many of his tricks, but I have seen magicians perform such stuff, so there must be an answer there....

The second half was intriguing. At the end of the first half of the show he told us he was going to perform the Oracle, an old music hall show where 'psychics' read peoples minds. He asked people to go in the interval and get a card and a thick black envelope from one of the tables around the theatre. And to write their initials only on the envelope, and their row number, and to write an obscure question on the piece of card inside. They then had to put the card personally into a bowl on the stage, and give the bowl a stir so nobody could work out which card belonged to whom.

When the second half started he started talking about psychics and mediums and how they fooled people. He then got people up on the stage and did a bit of table moving and table lifting. Then he got to the cards in the bowl. (Whilst doing the table stunts he had placed the glass bowl on the front of the stage).

After explaining (again) that he was not psychic, he then started pulling cards out of the bowl - guessing peoples first names from their initials (not that difficult to do, but he got it right every time but one, and this is a live stage show, remember) and then gave them the answer to the questions on the card in the black envelope, without opening the envelope.

The questions ranged from - new careers to losing a finger in an accident (and having it successfully sown back on again) to someones sister being a priest, to what colour knickers a woman had got on!

He got them all right.

Now I know that this is just a trick. But it was extremely impressive. He could not have been reading body language as most people in the audience were too far away for him to see (and for part of it, he even bandaged his eyes and ears).

How on earth does he do it? your suggestions (even just hints!) would be most welcome! I don't believe he uses stooges, if he does he must use about 30 per show - someone, by now, would have blabbed.

Anyway, if you get a chance to go and see him live, do go. He puts on a much better psychic performance as a professed non-psychic than all the other psychics put together!

[Nick Bogaerts]

After explaining (again) that he was not psychic, he then started pulling cards out of the bowl - guessing peoples first names from their initials (not that difficult to do, but he got it right every time but one, and this is a live stage show, remember) and then gave them the answer to the questions on the card in the black envelope, without opening the envelope.

The questions ranged from - new careers to losing a finger in an accident (and having it successfully sown back on again) to someones sister being a priest, to what colour knickers a woman had got on!

He got them all right.

Now I know that this is just a trick. But it was extremely impressive. He could not have been reading body language as most people in the audience were too far away for him to see (and for part of it, he even bandaged his eyes and ears).

How on earth does he do it? your suggestions (even just hints!) would be most welcome! I don't believe he uses stooges, if he does he must use about 30 per show - someone, by now, would have blabbed.

Randi explained this trick in one of his columns, because many psychics use it, so it isn't as though I'm exposing anything by telling you.

You have one plant in the audience. You pick up an envelope from the bowl, 'read out' the question you had prepared in advance for your plant, who nods and agreed that that is what they wrote. Then open the envelope which isn't theirs, pretending it is the one you've just read out loud. Remember the question/answer on that envelope. Pick up another envelope. Repeat the question and answer from the one you opened previously, and so on and so forth.

[Victor Meldrew]

But he wasn't opening the envelopes, he was picking them up, holding them tightly in the palm of his hand, screwing them up and then throwing them on the floor. And the envelopes contained only the questions, not the answers.

Still can't work it out!

[JonWhite]

I sadly couldn't get tickets for this tour and so am incredibly jealous. I'll try not to let that cloud my guess work.

I'd go with Nick on the "one ahead" routine, but throw in a further cheat.

Perhaps an impression device (such as on a table in the foyer)?

Perhaps he took two envelopes out of the bowl and "peeked" at the one closest to him?

Perhaps the envelopes weren't completely "trustworthy"?

Never trust a blindfold.

Just a couple of ideas and probably completely wrong anyway! :)

[Victor Meldrew]

I sadly couldn't get tickets for this tour and so am incredibly jealous. I'll try not to let that cloud my guess work.

I'd go with Nick on the "one ahead" routine, but throw in a further cheat.

Perhaps an impression device (such as on a table in the foyer)?

Perhaps he took two envelopes out of the bowl and "peeked" at the one closest to him?

Perhaps the envelopes weren't completely "trustworthy"?

Never trust a blindfold.

Just a couple of ideas and probably completely wrong anyway! :)

It wasn't just the questions he knew, but also the answers, which were not written down. As far as anyone knew, he was going to open the envelopes read out the question, and then 'psychically' answer it. But he didn't open the envelopes at all. (I had considered some sort of impression devise, in his hand, and watched him closely to see if he looked at his hand at all after discarding an envelope : he didn't. of course, that still doesn't explain how he knew the answers.....

The questions were written by the people themselves, in all areas such as the foyer (on many different tables) some in their seats etc. He had 150 envelopes and cards available. He did not chose who was going to ask him a question, he just told people where they could get the cards.

Do watch out for him coming around again, you must go and see him, it is a fascinating show.

[tkingdoll]

Victor, 'reading body language' is the last thing he'd have been doing, however close to him the people were!

[JonWhite]

Absolutely.

I saw him doing "Seance" in London a few years ago and had a great time. It was partly by being re-inspired by the show that I've got back into magic.

:)

[Victor Meldrew]

Victor, 'reading body language' is the last thing he'd have been doing, however close to him the people were!

what a tantalising comment....but you are going to have to drop bigger hints than that for me!:blush:

[Lothian]

I suspect that if he had somethiong that could make the black envelopes transparent then this would be an easy trick.

[JonWhite]

I suspect that if he had somethiong that could make the black envelopes transparent then this would be an easy trick.

Using the stage lights was avery old ploy... :)

[Victor Meldrew]

I suspect that if he had somethiong that could make the black envelopes transparent then this would be an easy trick.

...which could explain how he knew the QUESTIONS....but the answers?

[NeilC]

Seeing as we didn't see ALL of it we are unlikely to be able to answer it. It's likely that you missed the key information or the trick wouldn't have impressed you so much.

Did you fill in a card and envelope?

The row numbers is a bit odd don't you think? Maybe allowed him to check up some of them against ticket sales to get the names?

[Victor Meldrew]

Seeing as we didn't see ALL of it we are unlikely to be able to answer it. It's likely that you missed the key information or the trick wouldn't have impressed you so much.

Did you fill in a card and envelope?

The row numbers is a bit odd don't you think? Maybe allowed him to check up some of them against ticket sales to get the names?

yes, I am sure you are right, I must have missed some pertinent information, or just dismissed it as being not relevant.

I didn't fill in a card myself, wish I had have done now, but it was too full to push and shove to get one!

I thought the row numbers were odd too, but then it wouldn't necessarily have provided him with the info he needed. i bought 2 tickets for myself and my partner, I paid with my credit card so there was only my name given...if my partner had filled in a card, Derren wouldn't have known the name.

[Nick Bogaerts]

Getting the questions is indeed the easy part, there are several different ways of doing it. For all we know the messages he had on stage weren't the ones you filled in. He could have easily swapped the bowl and have someone backstage reading the questions to him.

Now answering the questions correctly is a different matter. some form of hot reading, perhaps. Could he have had a few assistants in the audience idly chatting with other members or listening to their conversations and picking up anything that could help his trick?

[Azrael 5]

As a magicain(of sorts) I will look out for this effect when I see him on tour.
Then I will come on here and boast how I know how it is done but won't tell any of you because Im a bas***d! ;)
This is exposure and far as I know is against the rules.

[Victor Meldrew]

As a magicain(of sorts) I will look out for this effect when I see him on tour.
Then I will come on here and boast how I know how it is done but won't tell any of you because Im a bas***d! ;)
This is exposure and far as I know is against the rules.

I wasn't really expecting one of you to come on and tell me exactly how its done...just to give me a shove in the right direction I s'pose...to give me some idea of how to THINK about how it could possibly be done.

Part of me really wants to know (the nosey part) and part of me doesn't - but the nosey part always wins!:D

[DJM]

Azrael, just like you managed to expose his buttons and newpaper effects from the last stage show?


:goodwitch

[Victor Meldrew]

just found this link to a review of one of his shows - the guy who writes the blog has now worked out how it is done.....

http://wongablog.co.uk/2007/05/02/derren-brown-mind-reader-the-evening-of-wonders/

I will have to read it...and read it...and re-read it.... (okay,I admit, I am easily fooled!)

[JonWhite]

"He picked out apparently random cards, sometimes using them, sometimes discarding them"

Hmmm, curious.


(Now I'm REALLY miffed that I'm not gonna catch the show)

[JonWhite]

As a magicain(of sorts) I will look out for this effect when I see him on tour.
Then I will come on here and boast how I know how it is done but won't tell any of you because Im a bas***d! ;)
This is exposure and far as I know is against the rules.


Interesting point. When does vaguely half-eductated guesswork constitute exposure? :confused:

[T'ai Chi]

The questions ranged from - new careers to losing a finger in an accident (and having it successfully sown back on again) to someones sister being a priest, to what colour knickers a woman had got on!

He got them all right.


How could any of these answers be verified?

[Grimoire]

How could any of these answers be verified?
They couldn't. He could be using plants in the audience. That would be easy, but probably a bit expensive to use night after night. Also easy to get caught that way if the same person attends a number of his performances.

[T'ai Chi]

They wouldn't have to be permanent staff. He could just get different people, volunteers, each time before his show started. Different people, and inexpensive.

[Mercutio]

They wouldn't have to be permanent staff. He could just get different people, volunteers, each time before his show started. Different people, and inexpensive.

...but more and more people who could "out" the trick.

I have no idea how it was done. Or how accurate the description is (although I doubt I would remember any more).

[T'ai Chi]

That people "could" out the trick is irrelevant (because one could say that about any trick, so it is not really a good reply against not using plants).

A magic show...there's gotta be some diehard magic geeks out there who'd hop at the chance to be one of Brown's assistants! Heck, they could probably be the same ones. People have already admitted they don't remember, accurately, how the trick is done, and people are just another detail in that process..

[Mercutio]

On this forum, I have seen one "outing" of a randomly chosen volunteer, in a very different trick from this. It is a risk.

You are not talking about merely using plants--remember, you spoke of "different people, volunteers, each time before his show started. Different people, and inexpensive."

If you still wish to believe the trick relies on plants, go right ahead. As I said, I have no idea how it is done.

[Grimoire]

If you still wish to believe the trick relies on plants, go right ahead. As I said, I have no idea how it is done.
No idea if it relies on plants. I suspect it is simpler than that. In fact, I hope it is. Some of the coolest tricks are the simple ones.

[Victor Meldrew]

I don't think he uses plants. If he does, he must pick them locally, the ones who he picked all had strong Birmingham accents (and I recognise it well, I'om a Brummay meself!)

The risk would be too great to have about 30 plants every show. Especially with the state of our general newspapers, who would make front page headlines with it.

I am sure there is a simple explanation to this trick. However, it is performed so well it is difficult to work it out.

[T'ai Chi]

I'm wondering why any of these people, who were magic geeks that volunteered, would want to 'come out' and reveal that they played a part in the trick?

Maybe they even signed binding contract saying they wouldn't 'come out'.

[NeilC]

So according to that blog, on the card they actually write their name, date of birth, a question and a piece of personal information. On the outside they write their initials.

Derren mystically divines the guys name, star sign and a piece of personal info. He doesn't answer the question. Hmmm...crikey...how could he possibly do that? I mean, even if he somehow got access to the card inside - oh actually that might do it.

He didn't use all the envelopes. So I'm guessing the ones where he answered the question were the ones where the answer was obvious. He probably finessed it a bit to make it seem he was answering questions when he wasn't. He seems to have given the impression to Victor and the rest of the audience that the info on the card was more limited than it was.

[Stormflood]

I saw the show in Cardiff. I'll go over what I saw, and my thoughts - I'm only reporting what anyone audience member would have seen. No secrets.

During the interval, members of the audience had to ask ushers to be given cards to fill out. They weren't lying around.

The cards were in thick black envelopes with a white label for you to write your seat number and initials.

I didn't take part, but I stood near the bar watching a girl fill one out in front of me. If I was Derren, or a 'helper', I could have read what she was writing and taking in information about her appearance or even eves dropped her conversation - people can't keep secrets from their friends :)

Back in the theatre a queue had formed leading to the stage where the glass bowl was located. Participents were allowed, one at a time, onto the stage to put in their envelope and stir them around. I wasn't watching carefully enough at this point to see if envelopes were coming out of the bowl, not just going in ;)

The glass bowl never left sight of the stage, or was obscured.

During the act, he never opened the envelopes. The audience, including myself, assumed the envelopes were actually that of the names he called out. He never held up the envelopes for us to see the initials or the contents - he screwed them up and threw them to the back of the stage when he was done with them.

If he did use stooges, they were bloody convincing, and they sat with friends. He 'read' no more than 6 people out of the 150-odd envelopes. I thought it was many more until I counted them in my head.

One answer was "You have an allergy... a strange allergy... it's to a fruit... you're allergic to apples."

He then proceeded to just answer questions without the envelopes (which makes sense if you have already read them off-stage I guess).

Clever stuff.

[NeilC]

I think we've already surmised that the so called "answers" might not even be answers for many of them but merely the bits of "personal info" also written on the cards made to sound a bit like answers.

From what you say someone could very well have taken a few out. Assuming he could read through the envelopes (various methods spring to mind) he could have memorised the few that were taken out the bowl and read the info from the ones handled which would put him ahead enough to do some readings without touching envelopes later.

[pmckean]

Hey, I guess if Derren Brown can do this night after night, Sylvia Browne can too...

[Bob Klase]

Hey, I guess if Derren Brown can do this night after night, Sylvia Browne can too...

Sure- if you can eat apples then you can eat oranges too.

[The Grave]

I don't believe Derren does tricks...


I think he's been sent here to fool us into believing that magic is faked when really it's for real!

What about the Prestige?

I think there's an under-world of magical over-lords battling it out to control the Earth!

Saw Derren recently on TV in "something wicked this way comes"...pretty cool stuff, walking on glass and slowing his heart down with the plastic bag.

Griff.

[firecoins]

I don't believe Derren does tricks...


I think he's been sent here to fool us into believing that magic is faked when really it's for real!

What about the Prestige?

I think there's an under-world of magical over-lords battling it out to control the Earth!

Saw Derren recently on TV in "something wicked this way comes"...pretty cool stuff, walking on glass and slowing his heart down with the plastic bag.

Griff.
oh great! another believer in Jewish conspiracies.:rolleyes:

David Copperfield...Jew
David Blaine...Jew
David Roth(coin manipulator)...Jew
David Williamson...heard of Jews

[Dr Aardwolf]

I saw Derren Brown 2 weeks ago in Eastbourne where he also did the Oracle trick. In this show he told each person whose envelope he pulled their forename, 'starsign' and day of the week on which they were born. With one woman he said she was pregnant, which she affirmed and said it was a girl, to which the woman cried "I only just found out a few days ago!" I asked my friend who had bought the tickets did he have to give his date of birth when ordering, but he said no, so that was my only theory blown out of the water.

Derren Brown's show just has to be seen, I also saw Banachek at TAM5 and both these guys' feats of trickery totally baffle the bejeebus out of me. I'm reading Brown's book 'Tricks of the Mind' right now to glean some insights, and it's an excellent read and goes into skepticism and pseudo-science as well as some fascinating psychological tricks.:wide-eyed

[Herzblut]

Saw Derren recently on TV in "something wicked this way comes"...pretty cool stuff, walking on glass and slowing his heart down with the plastic bag.
Griff.
No Griff, with a ball pressed firmly between upper arm and
chest temporarily draining down the arms blood circulation.

Never woke up with that strong, very unpleasantly prickled and stiff hand?

For the glass I dont know. Was it really glass? Maybe someone
else can comment.

What I recently saw was the complete video of his US tour "Messiah".
Absolutely stunning!

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1175300547407479800

"If anybody had asked me 'Is it a trick?' I'd answer 'Yes, it is!'.
But nobody ever asked me!"

Cheers
Herzblut

[rwp]

To answer the oracle questions, you can use some of the methods given in Ted Anneman's book: Practical Mental Magic which is presently less than $15.

[TheDon]

For the glass I dont know. Was it really glass? Maybe someone else can comment.


Is walking on glass all that hard? I thought that if the glass was laid flat, with no shards sticking straight up, then they could take your weight without piercing the skin.

[JonWhite]

Is walking on glass all that hard? I thought that if the glass was laid flat, with no shards sticking straight up, then they could take your weight without piercing the skin.

There are also ways and means to "help" with the walk.

Or you could always just do it by woo power:

http://www.lifeevents.org/walking-barefoot-on-broken-glass.htm

[NeilC]

Yeah you can walk on broken glass anyway if the pieces are relatively small and relatively flat. I think I remember an article on it where they said only to use the main part of bottles to ensure it's flatness.

What was clever about DB's act was that he got some specs to smash up bottles to add to the pile of glass which appears to remove the slight preparation as detailed above. Of course all he needed to do was to avoid the few pieces that didn't conform.

[3point14]

... I'm reading Brown's book 'Tricks of the Mind' right now to glean some insights, and it's an excellent read and goes into skepticism and pseudo-science as well as some fascinating psychological tricks.:wide-eyed

I read Derrens book and found it very interesting.

It did occur to me while reading it that given he is a 'master of deception', perhaps I shouldn't take everything he writes at face value.

Then I had a paranoid moment and had a vision of Derren broadcasting a show called 'Trick of the Book' in which he causes all the thousands of people who've read his book to send all their money to his bank account while he does a piece to camera pointing out all the subtle psychological tricks in his book that have achieved this effect.

In my defence, it wasn't a very long paranoid moment.

[JonWhite]

Then I had a paranoid moment and had a vision of Derren broadcasting a show called 'Trick of the Book' in which he causes all the thousands of people who've read his book to send all their money to his bank account while he does a piece to camera pointing out all the subtle psychological tricks in his book that have achieved this effect.

You haven't sent him all your money yet? You must really be at the bottom end of the suggestibility bell curve!

(although in reality he probably just pick-pocketed all my bank details)

:D

[AgeGap]

Love DB but noticed he used same 'ad libs' of "count the buttons" and "dont answer it, its really bad news" at Southport show as well.
Does he walk on REAL broken glass?

[NeilC]

Yes he probably does walk on broken glass because, as explained above, it's possible for anyone to do it.

Anyone have links to his button counting effects on video? I had a few ideas about it but need to see it again to be sure.

[AgeGap]

I also have ideas about Count the Buttons but they are a bit high tech but doable. Don't want to fall foul of disclosure rule.

[Victor Meldrew]

I think there is probably a much simpler explanation for counting the buttons, involving the use of accurate weighing scales. Remember he was very careful to say 'don't drop any of the buttons' and then gave a reason like 'I might slip on them'?. Maybe there is another reason behind why he doesn't want any buttons dropped?!