LC Final Insult Teaser !110001!!1

[Dog Town]

Do Over claims it will be up soon...

Should be online tonight. :D

Salt your hats just in case.
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8646

Over/ Under?

[AZCat]

Do Over claims it will be up soon...


http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8646

Over/ Under?

"Salt your hats"? :confused:

I still have my $$$ on "never".

[The Silver Shadow]

I don't eat hats...

[Undesired Walrus]

I don't eat hats...

Get ready to when LCFC brings the guberment to their knees!

Oh noes!

[JAStewart]

Haha, I bet it'll have none of their ''evidence'' so that we can't get to work on it already :D

[mortimer]

Will this teaser include Do Over riding ATVs and watching his plasma TV?

What's that you say? It's not that kind of teaser?

[jhunter1163]

Not to worry, JAStewart, it's already prebunked. The Twoofers have no new claims. They have no new evidence. They most likely are going to lean hard on the ISI connection and other such vague, shadowy "isn't THAT interesting?" kinds of things.

I've never seen a really good debunking of that, by the way. I know it's based on one article in the Indian press, which isn't the world's most reliable source (especially for anything re: Pakistan), and I've seen Chussodovsky's (sp?) work criticized pretty harshly, but not a slam-dunk, shut-yer-mouth kind of debunking. Anybody got one?

[Mince]

Dear Mr. Avery and followers/worshippers:


I've stated this before, but it certainly warrants iteration, especially considering all of the ignorant expectations you seem to display on the Loose Change forum.

Magnolia Pictures (http://www.magpictures.com/) is not going to take LCFC "global". Mmm K? They are a distributor of minor, independent and expiremental films. You'll be lucky to have it shown in rag-tag movie houses in a few major cities. Movies produced and distributed by Columbia/Tri-Star, Paramount, Time/Warner, MGM, Fox, etc, go global. Loose Change does not. Even if it did go global, it would not have a shred of the impact you foolishly believe it would. You must remember, the greater portion of the human race are beings that think thoughtfully, logically, critically and discriminately. They do not allow themselves to be duped into believing a mythological creation such as Loose Change is anything but fabrication and speculative muse. You should be ashamed of yourselves for being so naive.

Carry on.

[gumboot]

Not to worry, JAStewart, it's already prebunked. The Twoofers have no new claims. They have no new evidence. They most likely are going to lean hard on the ISI connection and other such vague, shadowy "isn't THAT interesting?" kinds of things.

I've never seen a really good debunking of that, by the way. I know it's based on one article in the Indian press, which isn't the world's most reliable source (especially for anything re: Pakistan), and I've seen Chussodovsky's (sp?) work criticized pretty harshly, but not a slam-dunk, shut-yer-mouth kind of debunking. Anybody got one?



The best slam dunk for the ISI claim is "so"?

Until a truther can explain how a single ISI staff member supporting Al Qaeda is evidence that the US Government orchestrated 9/11, the claim is meaningless.

I am sure there are plenty of members of the ISI who support Al Qaeda. But the ISI is a Pakistani agency, not an American one. In the words of Forrest Gump, "It's this whole other country".

-Gumboot

[Quad4_72]

I doubt there will be an announcement. Avery is a liar. Isn't it funny though how we are all anxiously awaiting the announcement of what will be one of the worst films mankind has ever produced?

[Civilized Worm]

You must remember, the greater portion of the human race are beings that think thoughtfully, logically, critically and discriminately.


I wouldn't go that far...

[FactCheck]

I don't eat hats...[To be read like Homer Simpson] Ummmmm.... hats....[/end simpson]

[Calcas]

Dylan said in a thread the other day that he's hoping to screen it at the Toronto Film Festival in September.

A couple of months ago the die hard twoofers were promising that it would be rivaling Spidy3 this summer as the "must see" movie.

His final farewell won't even make a ripple much less a splash.

[gumboot]

I doubt there will be an announcement. Avery is a liar. Isn't it funny though how we are all anxiously awaiting the announcement of what will be one of the worst films mankind has ever produced?


You obviously haven't seen Spectres of the Spectrum.

-Gumboot

[Mince]

I wouldn't go that far...


Actually, you're right. I meant "the greater portion" in comparison with the conspiracy believers.

[~enigma~]

I doubt there will be an announcement. Avery is a liar. Isn't it funny though how we are all anxiously awaiting the announcement of what will be one of the worst films mankind has ever produced?Make of it what you will..

Streaming:
http://stage6.divx.com/user/loosechange911...al-Cut---Teaser (http://proxysocket.com/nph-proxy.cgi/000000A/http/stage6.divx.com/user/loosechange911/video/1216026/Loose-Change---Final-Cut---Teaser)
Direct Download:
http://video.stage6.com/1216026/.divx (http://video.stage6.com/1216026/.divx)

In this case I think liar is a bit of an exaggeration :)

[slingblade]

You must remember, the greater portion of the human race are beings that think thoughtfully, logically, critically and discriminately. They do not allow themselves to be duped into believing a mythological creation such as Loose Change is anything but fabrication and speculative muse. You should be ashamed of yourselves for being so naive.




http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/5604463b86f957b2a.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5542)

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_5604463b87a022317.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5543)

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/5604463b8867f030e.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5544)

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_5604463b8954dd764.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5545)

[Calcas]

Oh, and Dylan was really proud of the LC2/Virgin thing. He said,

"Well, Virgin signed a contract, so essentially, they paid us for the rights to NOT screen Loose Change 2.

Us: 1.
Haters: 0.

Tim and Korey were actually making jokes yesterday about how long it was going to take to be pulled..."


Is he not smart enough to know that CAN'T be a good thing? In the future when he's trying to peddle his snake oil, how will prospective suitors view this?

[Mince]

Oh, and Dylan was really proud of the LC2/Virgin thing. He said,

"Well, Virgin signed a contract, so essentially, they paid us for the rights to NOT screen Loose Change 2.

Us: 1.
Haters: 0.

Tim and Korey were actually making jokes yesterday about how long it was going to take to be pulled..."


Is he not smart enough to know that CAN'T be a good thing? In the future when he's trying to peddle his snake oil, how will prospective suitors view this?


That is exactly my perspective. Avery got paid one time, and now the video is tainted, just ahead of the Final Cut's release, no less.

Dylan, you're not likely to get paid again for screening rights to Second Edition. Your franchise horse dropped dead out of the gate. How are you ahead 1-0? You got paid one time. You're laughing because you limited your franchising of Second Edition to one payment. I recommend you learn a little about the film industry and economics. People who are not drinking your Kool-Aid (Loose Change forum subscribers) are laughing at you. Leastwise, I am.

[soundaddicted]

Just saw the teaser. It looks really good.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Just saw the teaser. It looks really good.
A crack-whore with clap can look good too, until you get her into bright light.

[Vincent Vega]

Just saw the teaser. It looks really good.

looks Really good as in looks really good but is substance less crap?

or as in looks really good which in that case would call your judgement into question. :cool:

[HyJinX]

A crack-whore with clap can look good too, until you get her into bright light.

That'll be $199 for the new monitor you owe me. :p

[HyJinX]

Just saw the teaser. It looks ridiculous and baseless.

[chillzero]

http://stage6.divx.com/user/loosechange911/video/1216026/Loose-Change---Final-Cut---Teaser

If anyone is interested

[Gamolon]

Ok, let me get this straight.

The all powerful and evil government just pulled off the conspiracy of the ages using carefully laid out plans which, I may add, include the planting of all kinds of evidence and paying off hundreds of people...

...and here's the kicker folks....

Only to be exposed by a movie produce by a couple of kids?

Wouldn't they put a stop to that?

[defaultdotxbe]

Wouldn't they put a stop to that?
apaprently not

[beachnut]

Just saw the teaser. It looks really good.
What was really good? Dylan's lies and misinformation will never look good, no matter what high school drop out narrates it.

[Darth Rotor]

You must remember, the greater portion of the human race are beings that think thoughtfully, logically, critically and discriminately.
PT Barnum and I both disagree with you. (OK, he's dead, but he would.)
You should be ashamed of yourselves for being so naive.

Likewise. ;)

DR

[Hourglassmemory]

Wow! Rosie and charlie sheen!!
When I started hearing Silverstein talking about the "pull it"...I rolled my eyes "oh not again!!!!!"

The only thing that concerned me was the footage of the large groups of people. People who watch it and are ignorant of the facts will see it as "Wow! There's something happening! Let me join the crowd!"
Then more cowards will join their baseless, ill-founded movement.

"Prepare to be awaken" Unfortunatly, mr. Avery, we're not the ones who are sleeping, although you illogically think otherwise.

[Furcifer]

apaprently not

why not?

[jhunter1163]

That is exactly my perspective. Avery got paid one time, and now the video is tainted, just ahead of the Final Cut's release, no less.

Dylan, you're not likely to get paid again for screening rights to Second Edition. Your franchise horse dropped dead out of the gate. How are you ahead 1-0? You got paid one time. You're laughing because you limited your franchising of Second Edition to one payment. I recommend you learn a little about the film industry and economics. People who are not drinking your Kool-Aid (Loose Change forum subscribers) are laughing at you. Leastwise, I am.

He limited his franchising to one payment that is likely to be recovered by Virgin unless they decide that it's not worth their trouble to sue for. If they paid him $10K for rights, and it'll cost them $20K in legal fees to recover it, they'll write it off as a bad decision. And, frankly, I'd be surprised if they got as much as $10K, considering the tiny audience it would have drawn.

[T.A.M.]

Pretty much as expected.

I know it is only a teaser...seems to focus on (a) Commission Hearings, (b) Air quality and its effects on EMS, (c) Pentagon _ south of Citgo,(d) WTCs, and (e) the 9/11 truth movement as a whole.

TAM:)

[HyJinX]

(c) Pentagon _ south of Citgo

YIKES!

[Pythra]

:confused:
What is with the music? WHY DO ALL THESE MOVIES USE HORRIBLE AND INAPPROPRIATE MUSIC? Do all CTers suffer from the same hearing impairment? Or maybe there's an actual conspiracy afoot, and every one of these videos is made by the same person?

Just asking questions.

A five year old with a cellphone camera and a xylophone could have made a more coherent teaser than this.

I'm speaking here as a movie critic rather than a skeptic. I mean, I have no doubt that the evidence presented in this steaming pile of GREATNESS will be the smoking gun that has us all eating our salted hats.

[T.A.M.]

Ok, let me get this straight.

The all powerful and evil government just pulled off the conspiracy of the ages using carefully laid out plans which, I may add, include the planting of all kinds of evidence and paying off hundreds of people...

...and here's the kicker folks....

Only to be exposed by a movie produce by a couple of kids?

Wouldn't they put a stop to that?

Not only that, but this same all powerful Neocon Cabal who did all the forementioned, was unable to plant a few WMDs with lab equipment etc...in the middle of a huge deserted country, in order to sure up their hold on power...go figure...who knows what silliness goes on in the minds of the evil ones...

TAM:)

[Calcas]

(c) Pentagon _ south of Citgo

YIKES!

Yeah, his animation and still photo clearly show the light poles.

Lyte has been silent over there lately. LOL.

[T.A.M.]

I think its gonna be a little edgier, younger more hip version of "Press for Truth"...we will see.

TAM:)

[soundaddicted]

How bizarre. My post was deleted.

[HyJinX]

How bizarre. My post was deleted.

It was probably moved. Check your private messages.

[Pardalis]

I don't see how showing the devastated side of WTC7 is going to play in their favor.

:confused:

[Darth Rotor]

How bizarre. My post was deleted.

More likely moved. Check at the Abandon All Hope forum to see if it was moved there.

When I get nasty, that is where my barbs tend to get moved.

DR

[T.A.M.]

How bizarre. My post was deleted.

Please go to the main directory for the Conspiracy Theories subforum. At the top examine the titles of the "stickys". Go read the one covering the new tighter regulations for this subforum.

TAM:)

[soundaddicted]

So tighter regulations allow crack whores with clap but not my question? Ooooook....

[HyJinX]

Oh...well that's a personal attack. Those get deleted. I had one deleted as well. In these cases we should be thanking the MODS for helping things stay on track. It's the rules. I'm still learning them too.

[Pardalis]

Soundaddicted, your question was a personal attack, Arkan's remark was a joke that didn't involve you personally.

End of story.

[HyJinX]

So tighter regulations allow crack whores with clap but not my question? Ooooook....

This is not a personal attack against you.

[soundaddicted]

Oh well they can take the post but not the result.

I had a second post deleted that just contained a smilie.

[jhunter1163]

You could check Flame War too. Things end up there too occasionally. It's very rare to see a post outright deleted. Not absolutely unheard of, but pretty rare.

[soundaddicted]

How is a question an attack?

[HyJinX]

Enough...back to the topic.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Enough...back to the topic.
Is it on YT or Google yet? (so it can be voted down into the abyss)

[Pardalis]

Enough...back to the topic.

Exactly. About that WTC7 footage we saw in the teaser, how on earth are they going to spin this one around?

It's pretty damning evidence to me that the building was indeed heavily damaged and couldn't possibly be rigged with explosives.

:confused:

[chillzero]

Stop quoting deleted posts.
Take any issues with moderation to the forum mgt section.

[soundaddicted]

Im glad to see the Mineta testimony is in there. Not many people are even aware of that.

[Mince]

PT Barnum and I both disagree with you. (OK, he's dead, but he would.)

Likewise. ;)

DR


You missed my subsequent amendment:


Originally Posted by Civilized Worm http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2574804#post2574804)
I wouldn't go that far...



by Mince
Actually, you're right. I meant "the greater portion" in comparison with the conspiracy believers.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Im glad to see the Mineta testimony is in there. Not many people are even aware of that.
http://forums.randi.org/search.php?searchid=815533

[Darth Rotor]

You missed my subsequent amendment:
Ah, but of course, that is a horse of a different colour. ;)

DR

[HyJinX]

Is it on YT or Google yet? (so it can be voted down into the abyss)

I don't believe so...at least not yet. Here's Dylan's quote regarding your question:


I've pretty much sworn off Google Video and Youtube, because the filesizes are usually twice as big yet look half as good.

I don't want to speculate if this decision had anything to do with being able to vote on it.

[soundaddicted]

Mineta can't be referring to flight 93. It wasn't reported to the military until 10:06am. I think it's an important piece of evidence.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Mineta can't be referring to flight 93. It wasn't reported to the military until 10:06am. I think it's an important piece of evidence.
http://forums.randi.org/search.php?searchid=815533 (http://forums.randi.org/search.php?searchid=815533)

[HyJinX]

http://forums.randi.org/tags/index.php/norman-mineta/

[Triterope]

He limited his franchising to one payment that is likely to be recovered by Virgin unless they decide that it's not worth their trouble to sue for. If they paid him $10K for rights, and it'll cost them $20K in legal fees to recover it, they'll write it off as a bad decision. And, frankly, I'd be surprised if they got as much as $10K, considering the tiny audience it would have drawn.

Assuming, of course, that this contract between Dylan Avery and Virgin even exists. As I said elsewhere, I doubt that it does.

[Mince]

Someone on the Loose Change forum apparently likes my work (I've color coded the uncanny similarities:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8587&st=100&#last

Originally posted by Mince (in this thread)

That is exactly my perspective. Avery got paid one time, and now the video is tainted, just ahead of the Final Cut's release, no less.

Dylan, you're not likely to get paid again for screening rights to Second Edition. Your franchise horse dropped dead out of the gate. How are you ahead 1-0? You got paid one time. You're laughing because you limited your franchising of Second Edition to one payment. by BillW (at Loose Change forum)

I think this may have much broader repurcussions.

Dylan got paid one time, and now the video is tainted, just ahead of the Final Cuts release, no less.

I dont think its likely he will get paid again for screening rights to Second Edition. And thats the franchise horse.

He limited his franchising to one payment that is likely to be recovered by Virgin unless they decide that its not worth their trouble to sue for. If they paid him $10K for rights, and it will cost them $20K in legal fees to recover it, they will write it off as a bad decision. And, frankly, I would be surprised if they got as much as $10K, considering the tiny audience it would have drawn.

Also on the Loose Change forum:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8646


by a curious person

Will we be seeing this teaser distributed and promoted? Perhaps on TV or in theaters?

by Dylan Avery

Nope. This is something I made for the fans.

That's right. We won't be seeing a trailer on TV or in theaters because, guess what, it's not going to be on TV or in theaters.

Also note Avery's use (again) of the word "fans".

[beachnut]

Im glad to see the Mineta testimony is in there. Not many people are even aware of that.
It would be cool if some truther could tell anyone what it means. What does Mineta testimony mean? So far not a single truther can come up with any facts about 9/11 to prove their ideas.

Just old junk and more lies appear to be LCFC destiny. No facts and evidence just hearsay and misleading information. Dylan is hoping to make money from people not able to think for themselves. What do you think?

[HyJinX]

Someone on the Loose Change forum apparently likes my work (I've color coded the uncanny similarities:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=8587&st=100&#last

Plagiarism is a form of flattery. You did get signed contracts from them...didn't you?

[soundaddicted]

Thanks for the links. Found this paper posted by Yurebiz. I will read it later.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/truth914/mineta.html

[jhunter1163]

BillW also swiped part of my post too. It's OK though.

[thaiboxerken]

Are these idiots making money from this? I am hoping not, but won't be surprised if they cash in a good profit from this conspiracy movie. I hate people.

[John Blonn]

Nope. This is something I made for the fans.

Ugh!

What the hell.

I thought this was about "the truth." Are you a filmmaker Dylan or a truth seeker?

[Quad4_72]

Im glad to see the Mineta testimony is in there. Not many people are even aware of that.

Its garbage...thats why people are not aware of it.

[beachnut]

Here is a LCF poster who does not understand LCSE is fiction. He is still fooled by Dylan's lies. Why has this guy failed to understand what facts really are, as have Virgin employees who have been tipped off about the lies of LC.

He emails Virgin.
Here's my letter,

To Virgin Atlantic Management
CC: Chairman Virgin Atlantic Airways; Chairman and CEO Virgin Group, Sir Richard Branson
CEO, Steve Ridgway
COO, Lyell Strambi
VP Sales and Marketing, Chris Rossi

I noticed that Loose Change has been removed from the in-flight entertainment selection. It is regretful to hear that you have removed a documentary that is fact based and asks questions about the details of what happened on one of America's most horrific days. Whoever complained and forced its removal obviously has something to hide.

I applaud the company's original decision to make this documentary available for customer viewing. I am also hopeful management will reconsider its decision to pull it from the available rotation.

Regards,

[defaultdotxbe]

I am also hopeful management will reconsider its decision to pull it from the available rotation.
OMG! they blew it up? INSIDE JORB!!!1!1!one!!

[gumboot]

Mineta can't be referring to flight 93. It wasn't reported to the military until 10:06am. I think it's an important piece of evidence.



United 93 wasn't reported to the military until 10:07.

By your logic it cannot be AA77 either, since that wasn't reported to the military until 09:34.

Indeed, Mineta claims that the conversation took place at 0925, yet at 0925 AA77 was 70 miles from the White House, at 16,500ft at 330kts.

AA77 did not reach 50 miles from the White House until 0927, and first came within 10 miles of the White House at 0934.

I now have my suspicions that Mineta could be right about the time this conversation happens.

He claims it happened at 0925, and that the Langley fighters had just been scrambled to intercept this aircraft. The Langley fighters were scrambled at 0922 - but not to intercept AA77. They were scrambled to intercept AA11.

Two alternatives:

At 0921 Boston Centre reported to NEADS that AA11 was still airbourne and headed for Washington DC. The F-16s from Langley were scrambled to intercept.

Based on an airspeed of 300kts (last know airspeed of AA11) and last known position north of Manhattan, AA11 would have reached Washington DC at about 0930.

The first alternative is that the reports were the projected path of an aircraft that had already crashed into the WTC. This is conflicted by the official version of when the shoot down order was given, and when the full evacuation of the White House occured.

The second alternative is that Mineta's timeline is wrong and the conversation was about a projected flight path for UA93.

UA93 crashed at 1003, 130 miles from the White House.

For the last part of UA93's flight, before it began to fly erratically, the FDR indicates an airspeed of about 295Kts.

At this speed, UA93 would have reached the White House just before 1030.

Just before 1020, UA93 would have been 50 miles from the White House. It would have been 10 miles away at 1023. This matches nearly perfectly with the official time for the shoot down order being issued. This matches neatly with the full evacuation of the White House.

-Gumboot

[Stellafane]

Ok, let me get this straight.

The all powerful and evil government just pulled off the conspiracy of the ages using carefully laid out plans which, I may add, include the planting of all kinds of evidence and paying off hundreds of people...

...and here's the kicker folks....

Only to be exposed by a movie produce by a couple of kids?

Wouldn't they put a stop to that?

What are you, some kind of shill or something? Don't you understand Da Rules? No matter how vast, all-powerful, evil, ruthless, and perfectly executed a conspiracy is, it must have some flaws in it that completely escape every expert in the world but are somehow totally obvious to lonely little boys who use their copious free time sorting through stray pixels on YouTube. It's like that rule that says once a supervillian has the only person who can stop him in his clutches, he cannot just shoot him or anything, he has to devise some really complicated, time-consuming means of execution, and then promptly leave the room so the hero can escape and stop the villian in the end. Don't ask why, it's just the way it works in movies. And of course, the real world always behaves exactly like movies -- just ask any twoofer.

[T.A.M.]

Remember what started Dylan on this entire track...desire for fame and fortune...

He wanted to be a hollywood filmmaker. He is realizing this, to a degree, at least the fame part, and like most, it is going to his head.

The "fans" is just one more bit of evidence confirming this.

TAM:)

[Hourglassmemory]

Exactly. About that WTC7 footage we saw in the teaser, how on earth are they going to spin this one around?

It's pretty damning evidence to me that the building was indeed heavily damaged and couldn't possibly be rigged with explosives.

:confused:

If the building was rigged with explosives, the bombs would have gone off. Period!

Yet, I bet they'll make the ignorant, gullible viewer believe their incontrovertibly faulty, ill-founded, illogical, banausic, specious, monotoned (sometimes grandiloquent and megaphonic in the case of Alex Jones) discourse repetitiously filled with sophistic refutations.

Translation: "Yet, they'll convince a lot of people with their already debunked evidence."

I bet they've turn it and twisted so much that they have probably come up with some new 'arguments' which they are very proud of and can't wait to show us.

PS: Yes, I do want you to use the dictionary.

[sivazh]

Wow. I'm impressed.

From the trailer, it appears that LC3 must have some real money and production quality behind it, it actually looks like a documentary, not some kid making a movie on his iMac.

Guess Sheen and Virgin kicked it up a notch!

But, you can't polish a turd, Dylie my boy. Needless to say, I can't wait. Gotta get my popcorn and soda ready.

[Hourglassmemory]

If you want my opinion he only made it so in the teaser.
Even if it looks like a real documentary, as you said, you can't polish a turd.

[gumboot]

Lame trailer.

It will confuse people.

-Gumboot

[jhunter1163]

If the building was rigged with explosives, the bombs would have gone off. Period!

Yet, I bet they'll make the ignorant, gullible viewer believe their incontrovertibly faulty, ill-founded, illogical, banausic, specious, monotoned (sometimes grandiloquent and megaphonic in the case of Alex Jones) discourse repetitiously filled with sophistic refutations.

Translation: "Yet, they'll convince a lot of people with their already debunked evidence."

I bet they've turn it and twisted so much that they have probably come up with some new 'arguments' which they are very proud of and can't wait to show us.

PS: Yes, I do want you to use the dictionary.

Is the NWO paying you by the syllable?

[JAStewart]

Note to dylan: showing images of a few people marching on NYC does not = inside job.

[Hourglassmemory]

Is the NWO paying you by the syllable?

*spots UFO pointing laser at the forehead* ....no

[Undesired Walrus]

What is the little kid at the end meant to do to show da truth?

Typical Avery style filmaking here, no surprises.

[soundaddicted]

Did anyone notice the Peter Jennings bit with terror drills written behind him? Ivecertainly never seen that footage.

[HyJinX]

What is the little kid at the end meant to do to show da truth?

Typical Avery style filmaking here, no surprises.

I think he's trying to artistically say "Tell the truth...or the kid gets it!"

[Darth Rotor]

Dylan is hoping to make money from people not able to think for themselves. What do you think? [/COLOR]

Sylvia Brown seems to have made that into a successful business model. Why not Dylan Avery?

DR

[Bobert]

Wow so they have uped the production value I look forward to NOT spending a DIME on this stinking turd.

[The Doc]

Mineta, Steven Jones, Terror Drills, Crap music. Nothings changed.

Somehow I doubt LC:FC is going to be the "undebunkable masterpiece" that these guys are hoping for.

[Foolmewunz]

Did anyone notice the Peter Jennings bit with terror drills written behind him? Ivecertainly never seen that footage.

Did anyone notice 33 posts in 8 hours???!!!

:eek: :eek: :eek:

soundaddicted
Join Date: 4th May 2007
Total Posts: 33 (33.00) posts per day

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I think he's trying to artistically say "Tell the truth...or the kid gets it!"

No, no, no... It's obviously "won't someone think of the children?"

[Calcas]

Did anyone notice 33 posts in 8 hours???!!!

:eek: :eek: :eek:

P'Duh again?

[~enigma~]

P'Duh again?
Can't be. The idiot swears that he is going to ignore Jref for good this time. Question would be why would any thinking human believe him/it?

[Foolmewunz]

Time of his posts was between after 11 pm here to after 7 am.
That'd put it at 11 am to 7 pm in USA (eastern - adjust accordingly for other time zones), 4 pm to midnight in UK, or 5 pm to 1 am on the European continent.

(Don't know PDOH's old sock posting times, and not even saying it's PDOH fer sure... but the light trolling pattern fits. Post nothing in the welcome area, just jump in and drop a Prisonplanet link or two.... ratchet it up later....)

[The Silver Shadow]

"Well, Virgin signed a contract, so essentially, they paid us for the rights to NOT screen Loose Change 2.

Us: 1.
Haters: 0.

Tim and Korey were actually making jokes yesterday about how long it was going to take to be pulled..."

And this is the same Dylan Avery who gets pissed off whenever someone talks about the money he's making and now he's gloating over a single payment :rolleyes:

[Mobyseven]

You must remember, the greater portion of the human race are beings that think thoughtfully, logically, critically and discriminately.

Beg. To. Differ.

Unfortunately.

[qarnos]

I was interested to see the CGI animation of AA77. I remember someone posted an email from Dylan, where he stated "a plane hit the pentagon" repeatedly. I wonder what the deal was with the CGI, then?

[Dog Town]

And this is the same Dylan Avery who gets pissed off whenever someone talks about the money he's making and now he's gloating over a single payment :rolleyes:


BINGO!...tell him what he's won!

[The Doc]

From what I can gather from the trailer, LC:FC will probably say:

a) Plane did hit the Pentagon
b) Thermite brought down World Trade Centers
c) UL certified steel, the whole Kevin Ryan gig.
d) Mineta fiasco

"Undebunkable" is a pretty strong word. If I am correct and if LC:FC is going to make those claims, Dylan's promising waaay too much.

[~enigma~]

From what I can gather from the trailer, LC:FC will probably say:

a) Plane did hit the Pentagon
b) Thermite brought down World Trade Centers
c) UL certified steel, the whole Kevin Ryan gig.
d) Mineta fiasco

"Undebunkable" is a pretty strong word. If I am correct and if LC:FC is going to make those claims, Dylan's promising waaay too much.
a is true and d is true that it was a fiasco but that doesn't say much.

[The Doc]

Indeed.

It was the close up of the "thermite" pouring out of the tower along with Steven Jones being interviewed that lead me to B.

The interview with Kevin Ryan lead me to C.

[~enigma~]

Indeed.

It was the close up of the "thermite" pouring out of the tower along with Steven Jones being interviewed that lead me to B.

The interview with Kevin Ryan lead me to C.
I agree with you but like Dylan says, "we will be surprised."

Now I will sit back and wait for the way some posters on LCF are gonna spin that quote from me :)

[Undesired Walrus]

From what I can gather from the trailer, LC:FC will probably say:

a) Plane did hit the Pentagon



???

[T.A.M.]

It will be undebunkable, likely, because the language in the narration combined with the presented "evidence" will not make any conclusions or direct accusations, and hence "undebunkable".

I think LC:FC will be 80% LIHOP 20% MIHOP, with the MIHOP portion being the least contraversial and most (ha thats funny) plausible.

TAM:)

[The Doc]

???

I'm guessing that LC:FC will drop the "missile hit the Pentagon" claim. It depends on how they use that CGI we saw though I guess.

[Unfit4Command]

That trailer caused several errors in my computer for some reason. They must be trying to hack me and spy on what I do online! :o

One question though, WHAT IS WITH THAT HORRIBLE MUSIC!?

[Shrinker]

One question though, WHAT IS WITH THAT HORRIBLE MUSIC!?

I think it's so debunkers can't bear to watch it. Kinda like Macrovision...

[Pardalis]

That trailer caused several errors in my computer for some reason.

You sir have a very smart computer. :D

One question though, WHAT IS WITH THAT HORRIBLE MUSIC!?

I think it's called "rap".

[Shrinker]

I don't see how showing the devastated side of WTC7 is going to play in their favor.

:confused:

Look carefully, there's a little flash in there. They'll claim its bombs. Avery is holding on to a large amount of close-up footage of the devastated side. He posted a snippet a while back, claiming some flashes (which looked to me like sunlight reflecting of glass shards) were the ultimate proof of explosions.

[ref]

You obviously haven't seen Spectres of the Spectrum.

-Gumboot

The worst film ever is Street Fighter with Jean Claude Van Damme.

[ref]

Oh, what a predictor I am.


They will have Steven Jones discussing his thermite findings and molten steel, Kevin Ryan talking about UL and steel temperatures. And they definitely will have that Craig from NYPD that claims bombs were in WTC 7.


They didn't have Craig on the trailer, but I still bet he is on the final. And they had the WTC 7 footage everybody knew was gonna be there.

I think they show the south side smoke to say it's only smoke with no flames.

[Bobert]

This movie seems like one final act ofdesperation
I did see though that http://www.loosechange911.com/ does get a lot fo traffic and I was surprised at how high its Alexa rating is.

[JAStewart]

it's only smoke with no flames.

Like a kettle? Omg loose kettles! oh wait..

[Hourglassmemory]

Look carefully, there's a little flash in there. They'll claim its bombs. Avery is holding on to a large amount of close-up footage of the devastated side. He posted a snippet a while back, claiming some flashes (which looked to me like sunlight reflecting of glass shards) were the ultimate proof of explosions.

It's quite interesting to see how a little bit of reflection turns into....We are turning into a police state, beware of the NWO.
The very base of their theories is distorted. No wonder their conclusion is something like dangerous Men in Black and secret moloch-worshipping governments.

[ref]

Look carefully, there's a little flash in there. They'll claim its bombs. Avery is holding on to a large amount of close-up footage of the devastated side. He posted a snippet a while back, claiming some flashes (which looked to me like sunlight reflecting of glass shards) were the ultimate proof of explosions.

I remember that too. It was only a minor flash. Not anything even remotely resembling of an explosion.

[MIKILLINI]

Hey all, I'm new here, but I have been reading the debates between each side and so far those who believe the WTC's were done by controlled demolition have been smashed by the lack of any evidence they have as compared to the NIST report.
R. Mackey has tremendous amount of knowledge in this area, and the last person who made an issue about whether or not Gravy is qualified to debate the issues concerning 9/11 was a pointless argument. I believe anyone can debate things, but some of those people lack any semblance of common sense. I believe the government allowed some of the events of 9/11 to happen, so there was no need to "wire" up anything; Just let events unwind. From previous warnings by different countries and intelligence agencies, from plots discovered in previous years, plans were seen to how the blueprint of a "Bojinka" type of attack would be executed, and what the targets were.

[~enigma~]

Hey all, I'm new here, but I have been reading the debates between each side and so far those who believe the WTC's were done by controlled demolition have been smashed by the lack of any evidence they have as compared to the NIST report.
R. Mackey has tremendous amount of knowledge in this area, and the last person who made an issue about whether or not Gravy is qualified to debate the issues concerning 9/11 was a pointless argument. I believe anyone can debate things, but some of those people lack any semblance of common sense. I believe the government allowed some of the events of 9/11 to happen, so there was no need to "wire" up anything; Just let events unwind. From previous warnings by different countries and intelligence agencies, from plots discovered in previous years, plans were seen to how the blueprint of a "Bojinka" type of attack would be executed, and what the targets were.Welcome but we have already been on this merry-go-round.

[Pardalis]

Look carefully, there's a little flash in there. They'll claim its bombs. Avery is holding on to a large amount of close-up footage of the devastated side. He posted a snippet a while back, claiming some flashes (which looked to me like sunlight reflecting of glass shards) were the ultimate proof of explosions.

:eye-poppi

[T.A.M.]

Hey all, I'm new here, but I have been reading the debates between each side and so far those who believe the WTC's were done by controlled demolition have been smashed by the lack of any evidence they have as compared to the NIST report.
R. Mackey has tremendous amount of knowledge in this area, and the last person who made an issue about whether or not Gravy is qualified to debate the issues concerning 9/11 was a pointless argument. I believe anyone can debate things, but some of those people lack any semblance of common sense. I believe the government allowed some of the events of 9/11 to happen, so there was no need to "wire" up anything; Just let events unwind. From previous warnings by different countries and intelligence agencies, from plots discovered in previous years, plans were seen to how the blueprint of a "Bojinka" type of attack would be executed, and what the targets were.

Welcome MIKILLINI, to the subforum.

Your post indicates you likely fall into the LIHOP swing of things. LIHOP, to many here, while less contraversial than MIHOP, is still regarded as unproven. As a result, if you wish to state this as your opinion, it will be taken as such. Should you wish to argue for it/debate about it, proof will be demanded.

Once again, welcome.

TAM:)

[NBachmann]

Welcome MIKILLINI, to the subforum.

Your post indicates you likely fall into the LIHOP swing of things. LIHOP, to many here, while less contraversial than MIHOP, is still regarded as unproven. As a result, if you wish to state this as your opinion, it will be taken as such. Should you wish to argue for it/debate about it, proof will be demanded.

Once again, welcome.

TAM:)

On what basis can you demand this?

[beachnut]

On what basis can you demand this?
It is the 217th amendment. Or see rule 1,000,037. (was this not in the LCFC teaser?)

[~enigma~]

On what basis can you demand this?On the basis that LIHOP as well as mIHOP doesn't mean anything without proof? Why do you ask (again)?

[T.A.M.]

On what basis can you demand this?

nitpick...sorry if I offended you with such strong language.

how about "required if you are to be taken seriously" then...does that work for you?

TAM:boggled:

[NBachmann]

nitpick...sorry if I offended you with such strong language.

how about "required if you are to be taken seriously" then...does that work for you?

TAM:boggled:

Not offended, just surprised at the approach of some people here.

[T.A.M.]

I was merely warning him of it...this is a skeptics forum. Now we can go into the semantics wrt 9/11 of who the "true" skeptics are or are not, but here, any "theory" brought to teh forum on 9/11 is expected to have proof provided if it is to be even considered for debate...they do not debate opinions here...we all have them.

TAM:)

[Pardalis]

On what basis can you demand this?

In real life, it is customary to ask for proof when someone makes a claim.

If someone wants a debate about LIHOP or MIHOP, it is required of this person to at the very least try to prove its point with verifiable facts.

You must come from the LC forum I presume?

[Corsair 115]

The worst film ever is Street Fighter with Jean Claude Van Damme.I'll raise you It's Pat.

[~enigma~]

I'll raise you It's Pat.You are all wrong it was "Killer Clowns From Outer Space."

[gumboot]

Not offended, just surprised at the approach of some people here.



Have you only spent time on Conspiracy Theory websites?

If you have (not saying it's so) I can understand why you'd be surprised to find an environment where claims were expected to be supported by evidence.

It's actually lots of fun, try it.

I'll give you a claim, unsupported by evidence. All you have to do to rebut me is respond with "Source?".

Example:

both pairs of fighters available to NEADS (NORAD) on 9/11 were scrambled to intercept AA11.

Notice I provide no sources whatsoever to support this claim.

Feel free to respond by demanding that I either provide a source for this claim, or retract it as baseless.

-Gumboot

EDIT to fix claim...

[T.A.M.]

Worst film I ever saw, that is one from the major studios, expected to do well, was "Joe versus the Volcano". Absolutely boring, boring dialogue, boring plot, boring cinematography.

TAM:)

[Hokulele]

Not offended, just surprised at the approach of some people here.

A believer wants to be told things that confirm a currently held belief. These can be facts or opinions, as long as they do not contradict the existing beliefs.

A skeptic wants to be shown facts and evidence, not opinions, that can convince them which is the best belief to hold.

[MIKILLINI]

Thanks for the welcome guys. I know that you want evidence, so I'll give you what I have that convinces Me. The video of what I'm refering to is on Youtube with Ben Van Vista of the 9/11 Commission questioning Condoleeza Rice about the August 6, 2001 Presidential Daily Briefing, Van Vista asked for the title of this PDB. Rice responded by saying it's classified, but the title was; "Bin Laden threatening to strike targets in the U.S. using hijacked planes". I haven't posted in the forum 15 times, so I'm not allowed to post the URL until then. I'm sure someone can find it, or already has it. But according to Rice these warnings were meant for archival purposes, not as a real threat. Is this covering her arse? Bush's arse? I believe it is.
According to ABC News on 7th September, the U.S. State Department issued a worldwide alert warning that American citizens may be the target of a terrorist threat from extremist groups with links to Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda organization. The report cited information gathered in May that suggested an attack somewhere was imminent..I will post the URL's unless someone beats Me to it. The big clue would be the date of the previous WTC bombing; 9/11/2003. Also the plans of this type of attack and the targets were known since the mid-90's. I refer to an article in Counterpunch dated March 9, 2006 about Sam Karmilowicz who worked in the U.S. State Department's Bureau of Diplomatic Security as an officer. Back in 1994 he was working as an Assistant Regional Security Officer at the U.S. Embassy in Manila, when John D. Negroponte was the ambassador. It's long, but you'll find it in their archives. I wrote to Karmilowicz about this, this was his reply;

To whom it may concern:
>
> My name is Samuel Karmilowicz. I am a former
> Special
> Agent of the U.S. State Department Bureau of
> Diplomatic Security Service.
>
> I believe information that I acquired while I was a
> U.S. State Department Security Office at the U.S.
> embassy in Manila may be of interest since it
> reveals
> the U.S. government's complicity in the torturing of
> Abdul Murad, an alleged terrorist suspect while he
> was
> held in captivity by the Philippine Intelligence
> Bureau; the U.S. government's use of me as an
> unwitting courier to
> collect and transfer what I later determined
> to be the proceeds of torture; and information
> indicating that the U.S. government had prior
> knowledge that Tariq Javed Rana, a suspected
> Pakistani
> Inter-Services Intelligence operative had ties to
> Ramzi Yousef and Khaled Shaik Mohammed
> while these individuals were devising what is now
> acknowledged to be the plot to
> use commercial airline carriers as missiles to
> destroy
> buildings such as the Pentagon, CIA headquarters,
> and
> the World Trade Center Towers in New York City.
>
> My evidence reveals that the U.S.
> government has deliberately withheld information
> from
> the American public in order to assert - what is now
> acknowledged to be - false pretenses to invade and
> occupy the nation of
> Iraq. Recent comments by Pervez Musharraf, the
> President of Pakistan also indicate the U.S.
> threatened to
> bomb Pakistan into 'the stone age' if the government
> of Pakistan refused to comply with their demands -
> an
> outcome that closely parallels the collective and
> disproportionate punishment that the people of
> Lebanon
> received from the Israeli army last month.
>
> The facts regarding this matter have been published
> by
> Alexander Cockburn in a March 9, 2006 Counter Punch
> article. You can access the article by going
> to counterpunch and by typing my name
> Samuel
> Karmilowicz in the search index. The title of the
> article is: Ex-State Department Security Officer
> Charges Pre-9/11 Cover-Up, dated March 9, 2006.
>
> I bring this information to your attention in order
> that the United Nations may initiate an
> investigation
> of this
> matter and, afterward, implement corrective action
> to
> reverse the grievous wrongs committed by the U.S.
> government, wrongs that are now acknowledged to have
> created a more violent and unstable world for all of
> us.
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
> Samuel Karmilowicz

[MIKILLINI]

Correction; The part of the previous WTC bombing was 9/11/1993

[Unsecured Coins]

Correction; The part of the previous WTC bombing was 9/11/1993


Wrong 2 times.

February 26th, 1993

[boloboffin]

[tiny derail]

I know that lots of people don't like the music behind most truther video. I keep thinking that it's just that older people naturally don't like younger people's music. They don't like to call it music even, and you can point to examples of this all the way back in recorded history, if you will grant me that generalization.

And since I turn 40 this year, I keep waiting for it to happen, the day the music turns into noise. But so far it hasn't. I like rap, I like techno, I like funky experimental sound stuff, I like dance remix, I like polka, I like country (the twangier without self-parody, the better), I like classic rock, I like pop, I like classical, I like jazz oh baby.

The music of LC is just as much a part of the propaganda as anything. The rap, which sounds completely original (which means I can't tell what they're sampling if they are), is part of the appeal of the piece. It is very true to itself - the one irreducible minimum I ask of my music. It is about anger and outrage and organization of chaos, appealing strongly to testosterone.

Instead of railing against the content and sound of the music, it would be better to show how the music manipulates the viewer as much as the editing. More people need to be made aware of how music shuts down their critical thinking and makes them more susceptible to suggestion. In the hocus-pocus world of 9/11 truth, one of their most potent weapons is their kickin' soundtrack. Music assists the illusion of coherence and certainty.

Just because you personally hate the music doesn't mean the music isn't good. It is. And DylanCo will be making plenty of bucks off the soundtrack. After all, you've got to give the fans what they want.

[David Wong]

Not offended, just surprised at the approach of some people here.

He makes an unspeakably ugly accusation about complicity with terrorism and mass murder, and offered no proof to support it.

And you are surprised that he gets a strong reaction?

Really?



Really?

[MIKILLINI]

Thanks UC I acknowledge the dates as wrong, In My haste, after I finally removed all My listed URL's so that I could load My page, I got ahead of Myself, so to speak.
The big clue to the government was testimony of those involved in the first WTC bombings, that some of these terrorists involved had connections in the network of Al Queda on 9/11/2001. Ramzi Yousef and Khaled Shaikh Muhammad (who was arrested in 1993). My mistake, yes that first WTC was 2/26/'93.

[westprog]

You must remember, the greater portion of the human race are beings that think thoughtfully, logically, critically and discriminately.

I'm not sure that this is actually true. The number of people who believe in astrology, or alien abductions, is pretty high. I'd say that the majority of the human race hold some kind of irrational belief. (I'm not referring to faith in things unseen here, rather a mistaken idea as to how the world works).

That doesn't mean that they will just buy into any old irrational belief though. There's nothing in 911 CT's to appeal to the masses.

[Foolmewunz]

Ding! Ding! Ding! Derail!

Lisa Simpson, a new record!!!



NBachmann has been banned as a sockpuppet of pdoh.


"I can name that Loon in 11 notes!"


Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[T.A.M.]

MIKILLINI:

I see your argument with the RICE testimony. What about this makes you think it was a cover up of "Letting 9/11 happen on purpose" versus covering up "Incompetence" in the administration or elsewhere?

TAM:)

[Dog Town]

[tiny derail]


Just because you personally hate the music doesn't mean the music isn't good. .

Oh...but it does! Beauty, is only in the eye, of the beholder.

" We can't sing, we just dance, we ain't got no instruments!" RAP!
It sucks! End of story. I did enjoy your slam on coutry though. Willie for President! Next!

DT

PS
Hi Doh'P! LMFAO!!!!1110000!eleven....

[jhunter1163]

I'm 43, and I'd rather listen to an hour of jackhammering than an hour of that LC music. Take that how you will.

[Orphia Nay]

I was interested to see the CGI animation of AA77. I remember someone posted an email from Dylan, where he stated "a plane hit the pentagon" repeatedly. I wonder what the deal was with the CGI, then?

I thought something similar. Will Dylan have to suspend himself? :D

Seriously, what makes "no plane at the Pentagon" any more stupid than "hundreds of eyewitnesses saw the plane crash but we think it was a passenger jet flyover and a missile"?

I'm 43, and I'd rather listen to an hour of jackhammering than an hour of that LC music. Take that how you will.

I'm 40, and ditto. At least jackhammering serves a useful purpose.

[gumboot]

Thanks for the welcome guys. I know that you want evidence, so I'll give you what I have that convinces Me. The video of what I'm refering to is on Youtube with Ben Van Vista of the 9/11 Commission questioning Condoleeza Rice about the August 6, 2001 Presidential Daily Briefing, Van Vista asked for the title of this PDB. Rice responded by saying it's classified, but the title was; "Bin Laden threatening to strike targets in the U.S. using hijacked planes". I haven't posted in the forum 15 times, so I'm not allowed to post the URL until then. I'm sure someone can find it, or already has it. But according to Rice these warnings were meant for archival purposes, not as a real threat. Is this covering her arse? Bush's arse? I believe it is.



Have you read the August 6 memo? (Which incidentally, is entitled Bin Laden determined to strike in US).

What Rice says is the intelligence was historical intelligence - dating back to 1998. There was nothing to indicate an imminent threat, there was nothing specific, and more importantly nothing actionable.

Upon reading the August 6 memo, which is available here (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0409041pdb1.html) it's very easy to determine that Rice was absolutely right.



According to ABC News on 7th September, the U.S. State Department issued a worldwide alert warning that American citizens may be the target of a terrorist threat from extremist groups with links to Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda organization. The report cited information gathered in May that suggested an attack somewhere was imminent..I will post the URL's unless someone beats Me to it.


The travel warning isn't archived at the US State Department website, although they do have an archived of a Daily Press Briefing for the same day here (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2001/4848.htm).

PrisonPlanet has a record of the Travel Warning here (http://www.prisonplanet.com/us_department_of_state_warning.htm) however it's not an entirely reliable source. Assuming for a moment that the PP source is accurate (it certainly looks authentic) here's what it actually says (my bolding):


Over the last several months, the U.S. Government has learned that U.S. citizens and interests abroad may be at increased risk of a terrorist action from extremist groups. In addition, we have received unconfirmed information that terrorist actions may be taken against U.S. military facilities and/or establishments frequented by U.S. military personnel in Korea and Japan. We are also concerned about information we received in May 2001 that American citizens may be the target of a terrorist threat from extremist groups with links to Usama Bin Ladin's Al-Qaida organization. In the past, such individuals have not distinguished between official and civilian targets. As always, we take this information seriously. U.S. Government facilities worldwide remain at a heightened state of alert.

As you can see, there's nothing either imminent, or certain about this Travel Warning. Furthermore, it is specifically for those abroad, not those in the USA.




The big clue would be the date of the previous WTC bombing; 9/11/2003.


Which has been pointed out, is completely and utterly wrong.




I wrote to Karmilowicz about this, this was his reply;


Mr Karmilowicz may indeed be who he claims to be, but given his alleged direct involvement in the Bojinka Plot, his actual knowledge of the plot is sadly lacking.




> while these individuals were devising what is now
> acknowledged to be the plot to
> use commercial airline carriers as missiles to
> destroy
> buildings such as the Pentagon, CIA headquarters,
> and
> the World Trade Center Towers in New York City.



Operation Bojinka was in two phases:

Phase one involved blowing up 11 international US-bound flights:

* United Airlines Flight 80: Singapore - Hong Kong, which turned to United Airlines Flight 806: Hong Kong - San Francisco
* Northwest Airlines Flight 30: Manila - Seoul - Los Angeles
* Delta Air Lines Flight 59: Portland, OR - Seoul - Taipei - Bangkok (Bomber would board in Seoul and disembark at Taipei, bomb would explode on the way to Thailand)
* Northwest Airlines Flight 6: Manila - Tokyo - Honolulu
* United Airlines Flight 807: San Francisco - Seoul - Manila, which would turn around and fly another flight back Manila - Seoul - San Francisco (The bomber would board at Seoul and disembark at Manila, the bomb would activate after departure from Manila)
* A United Airlines Flight: Los Angeles - Hong Kong - Singapore, would then go on Singapore - Hong Kong - Los Angeles (The bomb would explode after takeoff from Singapore on the way to Hong Kong)
* A United Airlines Flight: Taipei - Tokyo - San Francisco
* A United Airlines Flight: Seoul - Taipei, would then fly Taipei-Honolulu (The bomber would board at Seoul and get off at Taipei, the bomb would explode on the way to Honolulu)
* A United Airlines Flight: San Francisco - Taipei - Bangkok, the flight would then turn around and go back to Taipei and San Francisco (The bomb was set to explode after takeoff from Bangkok)
* A Northwest Airlines Flight: Portland - Tokyo - Hong Kong, would turn around and go back to Tokyo and Portland
* A United Airlines Flight: Los Angeles - Tokyo - Hong Kong, the flight was set to go back to Tokyo and Los Angeles

Phase two involved crashing a private light aircraft packed with explosives into the CIA headquarters in Langley.





> My evidence reveals that the U.S.
> government has deliberately withheld information
> from
> the American public in order to assert - what is now
> acknowledged to be - false pretenses to invade and
> occupy the nation of
> Iraq.



I'd be curious for this man to explain how a Philippines-based plot to blow up civilian airliners over the Pacific in 1995 relates to invading Iraq in 2003 on faulty claims of WMD.




Recent comments by Pervez Musharraf, the
> President of Pakistan also indicate the U.S.
> threatened to
> bomb Pakistan into 'the stone age' if the government
> of Pakistan refused to comply with their demands -


I am sure they did. The USA had no chance of defeating Al Qaeda inside Afghanistan without Pakistani support.





> an
> outcome that closely parallels the collective and
> disproportionate punishment that the people of
> Lebanon
> received from the Israeli army last month.

I fail to see how these two matters are related. They involve entirely different countries, and the motives are entirely different.

If Mr Samuel Karmilowicz was indeed a "Special Agent" for the Bureau of Diplomatic Security, I can only imagine he was fired for being too stupid to perform his functions correctly, since his grasp of international events (even ones he claims to have personally been involved in) is severely lacking.

-Gumboot

[MIKILLINI]

Gumboot qoute;
"Have you read the August 6 memo? (Which incidentally, is entitled Bin Laden determined to strike in US).

What Rice says is the intelligence was historical intelligence - dating back to 1998. There was nothing to indicate an imminent threat, there was nothing specific, and more importantly nothing actionable.

Upon reading the August 6 memo, which is available here it's very easy to determine that Rice was absolutely right".

Do the persons in this government operate with short memories? Since this PDB was given on 6 of August, and the State Department issues out a worldwide warning on the 7th of September, then there is a concern about terrorist threats. At this point, I am speculating, but just a little common sense would make a person wonder why that if this a threat worldwide, why would you be spying on your own citizens? And that foreign intelligence agencies were informing intelligence agencies of ours in 2001 about the very same threat. The NSA monitors everything, they know who terrorists are, they have technology and ability to monitor any phone, including pay phones. The NSA had broken Al-Qeuda's codes through projects like ECHELON, A multi-billion dollar surveillance system.The NSA has the ability to know whats going on in real time.

"Mr Karmilowicz may indeed be who he claims to be, but given his alleged direct involvement in the Bojinka Plot, his actual knowledge of the plot is sadly lacking".

This capturing of evidence revealing the Bojinka plot lead to Abdul Murad of confessing to a third plot.Karmilowicz was instructed to transcribe the chain of evidence and to express mail the materials to a U.S. Justice Department Office in New York City. Mike Garcia and Dietrich Snell, the Assistant U.S. Attorneys who prosecuted Murad, certainly had access to the materials that Agent Karmilowicz sent to the Justice Department, although it is unknown what was done with the evidence.
During the spring of 2004, Karmilowicz contacted Maria Ressa, the CNN Jakarta Bureau Chief, who researched the Pakistani suspect Rana of plotting to kill President Clinton was a close associate of Ramzi Yousef and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed during the time that these persons were hatching the plot to use airline carriers as missiles to attack the U.S. Ressa told Karmilowicz that her sources in the Philippine intelligence and police bureaus suspected that this Pakistani was an associate of the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence agency.

"If Mr Samuel Karmilowicz was indeed a "Special Agent" for the Bureau of Diplomatic Security, I can only imagine he was fired for being too stupid to perform his functions correctly, since his grasp of international events (even ones he claims to have personally been involved in) is severely lacking".

This is an opinion; granted that Karmilowicz has given his in general terms.My opinion is that He wasn't about to reveal everything in an e-mail, but has more to add if testimony was needed in an investigation. Karmilowicz retired after a 21 year career. But in the context of your opinion,it could just as well be given the same determination toward Condoleeza or anyone else in this government that they are to stupid to perform their functions correctly.

[gumboot]

Do the persons in this government operate with short memories? Since this PDB was given on 6 of August, and the State Department issues out a worldwide warning on the 7th of September, then there is a concern about terrorist threats.


There's always concern about terrorist threats.





At this point, I am speculating, but just a little common sense would make a person wonder why that if this a threat worldwide, why would you be spying on your own citizens?


You have evidence that the USA was spying on USA citizens in September 2001?





And that foreign intelligence agencies were informing intelligence agencies of ours in 2001 about the very same threat.


Foreign intelligence agencies have no doubt been informing the CIA about terrorist threats for decades.





The NSA monitors everything


Executive Order 12333 prohibits domestic intelligence gathering by the NSA and limits its field of operations to foreign communications. There are certainly isolated cases of the NSA carrying out domestic surveillance, and they are not well received at all.

They certainly do not monitor "everything". This is quite impossible.




, they know who terrorists are, they have technology and ability to monitor any phone, including pay phones. The NSA had broken Al-Qeuda's codes through projects like ECHELON, A multi-billion dollar surveillance system.The NSA has the ability to know whats going on in real time.


This might be plausible in a James Bond film, but not in reality.






This capturing of evidence revealing the Bojinka plot lead to Abdul Murad of confessing to a third plot.Karmilowicz was instructed to transcribe the chain of evidence and to express mail the materials to a U.S. Justice Department Office in New York City. Mike Garcia and Dietrich Snell, the Assistant U.S. Attorneys who prosecuted Murad, certainly had access to the materials that Agent Karmilowicz sent to the Justice Department, although it is unknown what was done with the evidence.


So what, Murad confessed to a third stage, that just happens to exactly match 9/11, and the US government secretly hid it? Why? That makes no sense? Why not reveal it? Surely it would make the perpetrators out to be even more ruthless, wouldn't it?





During the spring of 2004, Karmilowicz contacted Maria Ressa, the CNN Jakarta Bureau Chief, who researched the Pakistani suspect Rana of plotting to kill President Clinton was a close associate of Ramzi Yousef and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed during the time that these persons were hatching the plot to use airline carriers as missiles to attack the U.S.


All we have is your claim that Karmilowicz claims that Murad claimed this third stage existed. That's not even hearsay.





This is an opinion; granted that Karmilowicz has given his in general terms.My opinion is that He wasn't about to reveal everything in an e-mail, but has more to add if testimony was needed in an investigation. Karmilowicz retired after a 21 year career. But in the context of your opinion,it could just as well be given the same determination toward Condoleeza or anyone else in this government that they are to stupid to perform their functions correctly.


Of course. I'm certainly open to any argument than any member of the current US Administration is too stupid to perform their functions correctly.

-Gumboot

[MIKILLINI]

I see your argument with the RICE testimony. What about this makes you think it was a cover up of "Letting 9/11 happen on purpose" versus covering up "Incompetence" in the administration or elsewhere?

TAM

We could debate on the intelligence of Bush, which, I suspect, wouldn't take long and we would end up in agreement of Incompetence on his part.
This fact alone is enough for a person(s) to use this to their advantage. Cheney is definitely smarter than Bush, He's been around Washington much longer, and knows the inner workings of security as former Secretary of Defense. He knows how information flows through each agency. He certainly was pissed when a State Department leak revealed two pay phone calls made on 9/10; One was "The match is lit" and the other; "Tomorrow is zero hour".

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Cheney is definitely smarter than Bush, He's been around Washington much longer, and knows the inner workings of security as former Secretary of Defense. He knows how information flows through each agency. He certainly was pissed when a State Department leak revealed two pay phone calls made on 9/10; One was "The match is lit" and the other; "Tomorrow is zero hour".

Man, you really need to source this stuff...

[gumboot]

He certainly was pissed when a State Department leak revealed two pay phone calls made on 9/10; One was "The match is lit" and the other; "Tomorrow is zero hour".



I'm sorry but you're seriously going to have to provide a source for this...

-Gumboot

[~enigma~]

Man, you really need to source this stuff...
I agree.

[qarnos]

Man, you really need to source this stuff...

Heard 9/10: 'Tomorrow is Zero Hour' (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2002/06/20/zero-day-usat.htm)

[~enigma~]

Heard 9/10: 'Tomorrow is Zero Hour' (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2002/06/20/zero-day-usat.htm)
So why is that mentioned along with Cheney being smarter than Bush?

[qarnos]

So why is that mentioned along with Cheney being smarter than Bush?

You're guess is as good as mine. :confused:

[~enigma~]

You're guess is as good as mine. :confused:
My guess is that he was attempting rather weakly to insinuate that these were made by Cheney.

[MIKILLINI]

Gumboot quote;

So what, Murad confessed to a third stage, that just happens to exactly match 9/11, and the US government secretly hid it? Why? That makes no sense? Why not reveal it? Surely it would make the perpetrators out to be even more ruthless, wouldn't it?

It's classified under "National Security"

"All we have is your claim that Karmilowicz claims that Murad claimed this third stage existed. That's not even hearsay".

Cooperative research 9/11 timeline has this; Early 1998:Prosecutors Turn Down Deal That Could Reveal Bojinka Third Plot.
The entry said: "Abdul Hakim Murad, a conspirator in the 1995 Bojinka plot with Ramzi Yousef, Khalid Shaik Mohammed, and others, was convicted in 1996 of his role in the Bojinka plot. He is about to be sentenced for that crime. He offers to cooperate with federal prosecutors in return for a reduction in his sentence, but prosecutors turn down his offer".
Dietrich Snell, the prosecutor who convicted Murad, says after 9-11 that he doesn't remember any such offer. But court papers and others familiar with the case later confirmed that Murad does offer to cooperate at this time. Snell claimed he only remembers hearing that Murad had described an intention to hijack a plan and fly it into the CIA headquarters. However, in 1995 Murad had confessed to Philippine investigators that this would have been only one part of a larger plot to crash a number of airplanes into prominent U.S. buildings, including the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, a plot that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed later adjusts and turns in the 9-11 plot. While Philippine investigators claim this information was passed on to U.S. intelligence, it's not clear just which U.S. officials may have learned this information and what they did with it, if anything. [New York Daily News, 9/25/01] Murad is sentenced in May 1998 and given life in prison plus 60 years. [Albany Times Union, 9/22/02] After 9-11, Snell goes on to become Senior Counsel and a team leader for the 9-11 Commission.

"Executive Order 12333 prohibits domestic intelligence gathering by the NSA and limits its field of operations to foreign communications. There are certainly isolated cases of the NSA carrying out domestic surveillance, and they are not well received at all".
Does Gonzalez's interpretations and Bush's signing statements figure into them being strict toward following this law?

"They certainly do not monitor "everything". This is quite impossible".

True, but other countries are part of the ECHELON system and they monitor specific areas. But if you know about the terrorist network Al-Queda and their main players, then this is more specificly plausible to do, the U.S. knows who they are, and where their area base is. These people had recieved CIA training in previous years to fight the Soviets. This is who is causing problems, especially after the first WTC bombing. Israel, who views all Arabs as a threat, had this knowledge of threats, imminent threats and subsequently warned the U.S. about them.

[Hourglassmemory]

My guess is that he was attempting rather weakly to insinuate that these were made by Cheney.

Unless Cheney works with Al Qaeda and speaks arabic....
a simple quote from the article puts a "Period!" in the whole argument.

"Conversations intercepted the day before Sept. 11 caught al-Qaeda operatives boasting in Arabic, "The match begins tomorrow" and "Tomorrow is Zero Hour." But U.S. intelligence didn't translate them until Sept. 12," ... and it goes on.
I dont' see any ooooo evil Moloch conspiracy here.

[~enigma~]

Snipped everything I am not particularly interested inI would like to know why you brought up the phone calls along with Cheny. You seemed to be making a very false insinuation that he made those calls.

[MIKILLINI]

Yes I will post all these URL's so you guys can check them out. I will do this, right now I have to go. The wife had a Lumbar Laminectomy and it has not recuperated well from it after 2 weeks time, so we are leaving now to have the surgeon determine what she has to go through next. I will be back here when this is done, I just don't know how long that will be. I enjoy this debate and look forward to coming back here.

[~enigma~]

Yes I will post all these URL's so you guys can check them out. I will do this, right now I have to go. The wife had a Lumbar Laminectomy and it has not recuperated well from it after 2 weeks time, so we are leaving now to have the surgeon determine what she has to go through next. I will be back here when this is done, I just don't know how long that will be. I enjoy this debate and look forward to coming back here.I'm not calling you a liar but I will say your depature is oddly convenient.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Heard 9/10: 'Tomorrow is Zero Hour' (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2002/06/20/zero-day-usat.htm)

Ah, OK. Now all we need is a source for the other part of his claim: "[Cheney] certainly was pissed. . ."

[gumboot]

It's classified under "National Security"


And yet Karmilowicz hasn't been charged for violating National Security. Kind of odd, that.





Cooperative research 9/11 timeline has this;


Their timeline is not very useful.




Does Gonzalez's interpretations and Bush's signing statements figure into them being strict toward following this law?


That order was signed in 1981 by Ronald Reagan.





True, but other countries are part of the ECHELON system and they monitor specific areas.


I'm quite aware of that. I spent most of my childhood going to school 10km from an ECHELON site. The function of ECHELON has also been openly stated by the Government in my country for nearly two decades.





But if you know about the terrorist network Al-Queda and their main players, then this is more specificly plausible to do, the U.S. knows who they are, and where their area base is.


Do they? You have evidence of this? I'm pretty sure the very problem is they don't.




These people had recieved CIA training in previous years to fight the Soviets.


No they haven't. MAK had its own training base. It wasn't supported by the CIA.




This is who is causing problems, especially after the first WTC bombing. Israel, who views all Arabs as a threat, had this knowledge of threats, imminent threats and subsequently warned the U.S. about them.

Yet the National Security Adviser failed to mention any of these imminent threats in the August 6 Daily Presidential Security Briefing? Why is that?

-Gumboot

[Cl1mh4224rd]

These people had recieved CIA training in previous years to fight the Soviets.
Robin Cook, former leader of the British House of Commons and Foreign Secretary from 1997-2001, wrote in The Guardian on Friday, July 8, 2005,

Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians.


However, Peter Bergen, a CNN journalist and adjunct professor who is known for conducting the first television interview with Osama bin Laden in 1997, refuted Cook's notion, stating on August 15, 2006, the following:

that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden—is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently. The real story here is the CIA didn't really have a clue about who this guy was until 1996 when they set up a unit to really start tracking him.


Bergen quotes Pakistani Brigadier Mohammad Yousaf, who ran ISI's Afghan operation between 1983 and 1987:

It was always galling to the Americans, and I can understand their point of view, that although they paid the piper they could not call the tune. The CIA supported the mujahideen by spending the taxpayers' money, billions of dollars of it over the years, on buying arms, ammunition, and equipment. It was their secret arms procurement branch that was kept busy. It was, however, a cardinal rule of Pakistan's policy that no Americans ever become involved with the distribution of funds or arms once they arrived in the country. No Americans ever trained or had direct contact with the mujahideen, and no American official ever went inside Afghanistan.


Other sources also dispute the notiion that the CIA had contact with non-Afghan mujahideen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Jihad_in_Afghanistan

[qarnos]

My guess is that he was attempting rather weakly to insinuate that these were made by Cheney.

That was the impression I got from his post - which is why I decided to check it out. I'd be very disappointed if one of our NWO masters ruined all our hard work like that. :D

[Arus808]

You are all wrong it was "Killer Clowns From Outer Space."

no, nothing beats Gigli

[Earl The Tall]

no, nothing beats Gigli

"Manos": The Hands of Fate anyone?

[~enigma~]

no, nothing beats Gigli
I just saw Lisa Lampanelli: Dirty Girl...rephrase your post please:)

[neon]

The worst film ever is Street Fighter with Jean Claude Van Damme.

No, it's "'Til There Was You."

[jhunter1163]

"Manos": The Hands of Fate anyone?

Any movie on MST3K has to get some consideration for worst of all time.

[Juustin]

The comments to all the trailers on youtube are basically just dumb kids stroking Dylan's ego. It makes my brain hurt to watch. They need an influx of skeptics so the average person reading can have a dose of reality.

[Hourglassmemory]

I dunno if you people are aware but there is a new trailer of the movie "LC:FC".
It contains rather innapropriate music. They probably want the trailer have this kind of feel. "Yo, we know the truth, lets get together and jump over the fences of teh white house.
And they show new 3D graphics with flight AA77 and a plane hitting a world trade center tower and getting to see the impact it had inside, in the core structure.
You see "Truth movement" footage. thermite. WTC7 with "mysterious lights" which jsut happen to be, in my view, electrical in nature.
You see a conspiracy theorist being kicked out o fa conference...supposedly being opressed by authorities because he "knows to much", when the most likely reason was that he was simply disturbing everyone. the man probably thoguht to himself the night before "I'm gonna be in history fo rbeing the man who spoke out." or something of that type.
Then you get Giulliani completly straight face....oooooo he's in a hypnotic state.

[Undesired Walrus]

Is that April Gallop in the trailer?

[qarnos]

Sorry for the slight de-rail, but does anybody know if LC:FC will be available free online, or will it be dvd/theaters only?

[boloboffin]

Sorry for the slight de-rail, but does anybody know if LC:FC will be available free online, or will it be dvd/theaters only?

You know, that makes me think about the future of DylanCo.

Even though we're talking small-fry distribution deals so far, these are still real businesses DylanCo is now dealing with. There are rules about these kind of things. When I think about Dylan's constant claim about blowing $30,000 one weekend, I have the distinct feeling that the days of the free DVD distribution are over.

And yet, the fans strike me as the pirating type, the hardcore fans. Dylan has surrounded himself with the exact profile of people who would steal and distribute LC:FE in a heartbeat - for the cause, naturally. These people are in his house.

So the possibility of Dylan suing his hardcore fans for intellectual property theft is distinct.

[Orphia Nay]

You know, that makes me think about the future of DylanCo.

Even though we're talking small-fry distribution deals so far, these are still real businesses DylanCo is now dealing with. There are rules about these kind of things. When I think about Dylan's constant claim about blowing $30,000 one weekend, I have the distinct feeling that the days of the free DVD distribution are over.

And yet, the fans strike me as the pirating type, the hardcore fans. Dylan has surrounded himself with the exact profile of people who would steal and distribute LC:FE in a heartbeat - for the cause, naturally. These people are in his house.

So the possibility of Dylan suing his hardcore fans for intellectual property theft is distinct.

That's a good point.

And do you know what? I can also see Dylan (after suing) still bragging about the numbers of views the pirated film is getting on Youtube.

Hehehe. That's a large dose of speculation, I know. Dylan can join up here if he wants that sort of thing to stop.

[jhunter1163]

That's a good point.

And do you know what? I can also see Dylan (after suing) still bragging about the numbers of views the pirated film is getting on Youtube.

Hehehe. That's a large dose of speculation, I know. Dylan can join up here if he wants that sort of thing to stop.

If Cuban is involved, this movie ain't getting on YouTube. REAL businesspeople don't put movies they're trying to sell in places where they can be watched for free.

I would agree that the free-DVD distribution is going to be slowed down considerably, maybe just limited to GZ or something.

Any word from Dylan on how it's coming along? The sixth anniversary isn't that far away...

[Hourglassmemory]

Sorry for the slight de-rail, but does anybody know if LC:FC will be available free online, or will it be dvd/theaters only?

This film will SOMEHOW go to the internet. It always has and always will. It will be posted by someone, copied a thousand millions times, so I can garantee you that you will find this on the internet. Not to mention that this film is to "Spread around and share the truth by ever means necessairy."

[Triterope]

So the possibility of Dylan suing his hardcore fans for intellectual property theft is distinct.

This will never happen.

There's a little bugaboo of intellectual property law in which works can be ruled to be public domain if their rightsholders do not adequately protect them against infringements. This is why companies like Disney are complete jerks about even the tiniest copyright infringements: if they don't defend their copyrights, they risk losing them. This may also partially explain the overzealous behavior of the RIAA/MPAA about file-sharing.

Furthermore, various version of LC are coated with "make copies and give to your friends to spread TEH TWOOF" type language, which could be construed as permission to copy/redistribute.

Dylan Avery has allowed LC to be distributed far and wide, and included language implying permission to do so. He's probably also said things on his forum that could be construed as permission to copy/redistribute. For these reasons, he would have a very difficult time asserting intellectual property rights over his own movie.

STANDARD DISCLAIMER: The above is my understanding from a "Law of Mass Communications" college course I took in 1996. Things may have changed since then. And I may have remembered some of it wrong. If this turns out to be the case, I blame the booze.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

This will never happen.

There's a little bugaboo of intellectual property law in which works can be ruled to be public domain if their rightsholders do not adequately protect them against infringements. This is why companies like Disney are complete jerks about even the tiniest copyright infringements: if they don't defend their copyrights, they risk losing them. This may also partially explain the overzealous behavior of the RIAA/MPAA about file-sharing.

Furthermore, various version of LC are coated with "make copies and give to your friends to spread TEH TWOOF" type language, which could be construed as permission to copy/redistribute.

Dylan Avery has allowed LC to be distributed far and wide, and included language implying permission to do so. He's probably also said things on his forum that could be construed as permission to copy/redistribute. For these reasons, he would have a very difficult time asserting intellectual property rights over his own movie.

STANDARD DISCLAIMER: The above is my understanding from a "Law of Mass Communications" college course I took in 1996. Things may have changed since then. And I may have remembered some of it wrong. If this turns out to be the case, I blame the booze.
iirc (and it's very possible that I do not), I thought it was Trademarks that one had to "vigorously" defend, not copyrights.

[gumboot]

iirc (and it's very possible that I do not), I thought it was Trademarks that one had to "vigorously" defend, not copyrights.



Yes that's right, it's trademarks.

Copyrights do not need to be defended or enforced (in fact copyrights can continue after the owner of the copyright dies).

You see the trademark thing in relation to Google.

Google are very strict about going after journalists that fail to capitalise the word in articles. If they don't protect their trademark it can become a genericised trademark and will pass into public domain.

Examples include "escalator", "frisbee", "band-aid", "xerox", and "hoover".

-Gumboot

[MIKILLINI]

I'm back..looks like I was missed...sorry to have been gone for so long guys. The hospital stay, along with the tests and MRI for the wife, left Me with no time to do anything, till now. Now that I do have time, lets have some debatin'.

Tam, you said;
I see your argument with the RICE testimony. What about this makes you think it was a cover up of "Letting 9/11 happen on purpose" versus covering up "Incompetence" in the administration or elsewhere?

TAM

Here's a list;
April 8, 2004: Rice Testifies Before the 9/11 Commission
National Security Adviser Rice testifies before the 9/11 Commission under oath and with the threat of perjury. The Bush administration originally opposed her appearance, but relented after great public demand. [Independent, 4/3/2004] In her statement she repeats her claim that “almost all of the reports [before 9/11] focused on al-Qaeda activities outside the United States. ... The information that was specific enough to be actionable referred to terrorists operation overseas.” Moreover, she stresses that the “kind of analysis about the use of airplanes as weapons actually was never briefed to us.” But she concedes, “In fact there were some reports done in ’98 and ’99. I think I was—I was certainly not aware of them...” [Washington Post, 4/8/2004] During heated questioning several subjects are discussed:


* Why didn’t counterterrorism “tsar” Richard Clarke brief President Bush on al-Qaeda before September 11? Clarke says he had wished to do so, but Rice states, “Clarke never asked me to brief the president on counterterrorism.” [Washington Post, 4/8/2004]
* What was the content of the briefing President Bush received on August 6, 2001 (see August 6, 2001)? While Rice repeatedly underlines that it was “a historical memo ... not threat reporting,” Commissioners Richard Ben-Veniste and Tim Roemer ask her why then it cannot be declassified. [Washington Post, 4/8/2004] Two days later the White House finally publishes it, and it is shown to contain more than just historical information.
* Did Rice tell Bush of the existence of al-Qaeda cells in the US before August 6, 2001? Rice says that she does not remember whether she “discussed it with the president.” [Washington Post, 4/8/2004]
* Were warnings properly passed on? Rice points out, “The FBI issued at least three nationwide warnings to federal, state, and law enforcement agencies, and specifically stated that although the vast majority of the information indicated overseas targets, attacks against the homeland could not be ruled out. The FBI tasked all 56 of its US field offices to increase surveillance of known suspected terrorists and to reach out to known informants who might have information on terrorist activities.” But Commissioner Jamie Gorelick remarks, “We have no record of that. The Washington field office international terrorism people say they never heard about the threat, they never heard about the warnings.” [Washington Post, 4/8/2004] Rice does not apologize to the families of the victims, as Clarke did weeks earlier. The Associated Press comments, “The blizzard of words in Condoleezza Rice’s testimony Thursday did not resolve central points about what the government knew, should have known, did and should have done before the September 11 terrorist attacks.” [Associated Press, 4/8/2004] The Washington Post calls “her testimony an ambitious feat of jujitsu: On one hand, she made a case that ‘for more than 20 years, the terrorist threat gathered, and America’s response across several administrations of both parties was insufficient.’ At the same time, she argued that there was nothing in particular the Bush administration itself could have done differently that would have prevented the attacks of September 11, 2001—that there was no absence of vigor in the White House’s response to al-Qaeda during its first 233 days in office. The first thesis is undeniably true; the second both contradictory and implausible.” [Washington Post, 4/9/2004]

[T.A.M.]

MIK:

What you have posted is not, as I can see, a debatable topic. Your questions are fine, I have no arguement with them, but they still do not clarify why you personally see the lack of forthcoming of info from RICE to be a sign of covering up for malicious intentions (ie LIHOP) versus covering up incompetence or ignorance (LIHOI). I would say that Rice MAY NOT have revealed all there was to know about those briefings, that memo, etc, but NOONE has shown me ANY evidence to indicate her lack of forthcoming was to cover up a LIHOP scenario.

TAM:)

[Foolmewunz]

Before I get to the dumb arguments on this topic, let's muddy the waters and really stir up some s**t..... Looking for links to the dozens of forewarnings from intelligence. I remember finding a list of about a hundred when looking up Karmilowicz a few weeks ago.

Today's google results are quite different, though.

https://ewww.americas.org/item_8133


Sam Karmilowicz who also calls himself Samuel Karmilowicz. Civilian employee at consulate or embassy in Manila.....

And this week, Peter Samuel Karmilowicz hits the news. Civilian attache the embassy in Ecuador.

[MIKILLINI]

Hang on there Tam, it's coming....Here's the relevant extract from Tenet's book from consortium news;
"A few weeks after the Aug. 6 PDB was delivered, I followed it to Crawford to make sure the President stayed current on events," Tenet wrote in his memoir, At the Center of the Storm. "This was my first visit to the ranch. I remember the President graciously driving me around the spread in his pickup and my trying to make small talk about the flora and the fauna, none of which were native to Queens,"...and this...
UQ Wire: Tenet Lied Under Oath To 9/11 Commission
Wednesday, 9 June 2004, 1:37 pm

TENET LIED UNDER OATH TO 9/11 COMMISSION ABOUT 8/24/2001 MEETING WITH PRESIDENT - AGENCY COMPOUNDS MISREPRESENTATION

* CIA Statement Omits Key Date From List of Bush-DCI Meetings in Weeks Before 9/11
* What Did Bush, Tenet, Rumsfeld and Gen. Myers Talk About in Crawford, TX Three Weeks Before the Attacks - One Day After the Flt. 77 Hijackers Were Watchlisted by the CIA?

From Mark G. Levey

Washington, DC, June 7, 2004 - Former CIA Director George Tenet committed perjury in his April 14 testimony before the 9/11 Commission when he claimed he had not met with President Bush in the month before the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon. That misrepresentation in Tenet's testimony was noted within hours by Agence France-Presse, below.

The following day, AP reported the CIA issued what was described as a correction after the Director "misspoke." The Agency asserted that its records showed Tenet meeting with Bush on August 17 and 31, and then on at least six occasions in September prior to Tuesday, the 11th, below.

However, that CIA announcement omits mention of the visit that then DCI Tenet apparently made to the President's Crawford, Texas ranch on August 24. The White House website on August 25 quotes a remark made by George W. Bush that he met with Tenet the previous day.

In a verbatim transcript, the President is quoted during an impromptu walking tour of Bush's Crawford, TX ranch that he had met the day before with CIA Director and newly appointed members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and National Security Advisor Rice were also present at a Presidential press conference in Crawford on the 24th, according to the White House press notice issued that day. In the August 25 transcript, the President Bush states to reporters and visitors:

THE PRESIDENT: " . . . Yesterday, we spent -- well, they arrived at 10:00 a.m. It took a while to get the press conference. We got back here at about 11:30 a.m. and met until 5:15 p.m. I think they left. That's the longest meeting I've had in a long time, on a very important subject . . .

Q When you have those business meetings, like the Joint Chiefs briefing, do you like to keep it separate from the living quarters on the ranch?

THE PRESIDENT: Actually, you know, what we call the governor's house, the place where you all came out during the -- that's where we went. Condi and Karen Hughes stayed there. And right across the street from that is a -- it's a nice looking government doublewide. (Laughter.) And that's where the mil aide, the nurse, the WHCA head, the doc, they stay.

The CIA briefings, I have on our porch, the end of our porch looking out over the lake. When Tenet came up, that's where we visited, out there.

You know, everybody wants to see the ranch, which I'm proud to show it off. So George Tenet and I -- yesterday, we piled in the new nominees for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the Vice Chairman and their wives and went right up the canyon. " Available at:whitehouse.gov/...

The "very important subject" discussed for almost six hours by Bush with his core national security team would likely have been the CIA's action the day before placing four wanted Al-Qaeda terrorists on the "watchlist" of persons to be detained if located in the US. On August 23 the Agency sent "cables to the State Department, the FBI, and the Immigration and Naturalization Service, requesting that 'four bin Laden related individuals' including Almidhar and Alhazmi, be placed on the watchlist." (Washington Post, A8, September 21, 2002) Two of those - Khalid Almidhar and Nawaf Alhazmi - subsequently led the hijacking of American Airlines Flight 77 that slammed into the Pentagon.

The pair had been the subject of CIA-directed surveillance since at least late 1999, when they were followed by the CIA to an Al-Qaeda planning session in Kuala Lumpur, at which they were observed meeting with a ranking terrorist operations director and Mohamed Atta's roommate, Ramzi Binalshibh, who subsequently wired money to them from Germany. Binalshibh also sent funds to Zacarias Moussaoui, who in October 2000 stayed at the same Al-Qaeda safehouse in Malaysia while on his way to the United States. On August 15, Moussaoui was arrested by the FBI at a Minnesota flight school.

If Tenet did not take the opportunity to discuss these events with the President, he committed one of the worst acts of derelection of duty in CIA history. Former DCI George Tenet is generally held to be a thorough and responsible intelligence executive. It is simply implausible that Tenet and Bush did not discuss the 9/11 hijackers when they met in Crawford on August 24.

[Foolmewunz]

(I'm trying to figure out a way on the above item to find out if this is the same Karmilowicz... It's a rather unique name, and the position held is so similar....)


Meanwhile, .... back at the ranch....

From '98 onwards, there were literally hundreds of warnings that AQ or other terrorists were intending to strike at the US, US Possessions, US Citizens, US Diplomatic or Military Personnel. Hundreds. They didn't come from one source. There was/is no "central clearing agency" for AQ threats. They were coming in from sources all over the world. Now, they've made it into the permanent records, and it's very easy with 20-20 hindsight to put them all in a nice neat log and say, "How could you have not known?"

But all the warnings were as indistinct and unfocused as the famed August briefing. X is planning to do something, somewhere, fairly soon, to strike at America or Americans. The intelligence was coming in from France, Germany, England, The Philippines, and various other locations. Which one was the real warning? How many "fairly soons" came and went?

If you want to call this incompetence, fine! But even that is a stretch. The fact that all these records exist is proof that there was a legitimate concern as all these sources were tasked with providing this kind of intelligence, FOR A REASON.... There was a legitimate concern that we would be the target of an attack of some sort. But no one could tell where, when, who, and how. Even reading all those dispatches today, there's not a one that pinpoints any detail.

Just for the record, I'm totally anti-Bush. I just think all of this evil plotting scenario stuff distracts from the real issues. I don't have to think the guy is Satan to dislike his politics. Raising him to Moriarty/Fu Man Chu levels is just absurd.

[MIKILLINI]

More for you Tam;
1. Agence France-Presse report reprint (April 15, 2004)

CIA says Tenet did meet with Bush in August 2001

WASHINGTON, April 15 (AFP) The CIA today said that its director, George Tenet, personally briefed President George W. Bush in August 2001, countering a statement Tenet made to the commission investigating the September 11 attacks. "We looked at his schedule," a CIA spokeswoman told AFP. "Mr. Tenet did fly down to Texas and briefed the president on August 17." He also briefed Bush on August 31 in Washington, she added. Tenet briefed Bush at least six times in the first eight days of September 2001, as well, the spokeswoman said. And "the whole time that President Bush was in Texas," vacationing on his ranch, he had a senior CIA analyst with him and received a daily report from the CIA, she said. Tenet yesterday told the commission he did not meet with Bush in August 2001. "I didn't see the president. I was not in briefings with him during this time. He was on vacation; I was here" in Washington, he said. "In this time period, I'm not talking to him," Tenet added, noting that they had not even spoken by phone at the time. The month before the attacks has come under particular scrutiny after the inquiry discovered that Bush received a briefing on August 6, 2001 about al-Qaeda activities in the United States.

2. AP Wire Reprint (April 15, 2004)

KHOU.com Houston, TX

Tenet misspoke about not meeting Bush in August 2001

Associated Press

WASHINGTON, D.C. - CIA Director George Tenet misspoke Wednesday when he told a federal panel reviewing the Sept. 11 attacks that he did not meet with President Bush in August 2001. Under questioning by commissioner Tim Roemer, Tenet said he never spoke with Bush during the month before the attacks, a period marked by concern over possible terrorist strike. "He was on vacation and I was here," Tenet said, although he added that he could have picked up the phone and called the president at any time if he had felt the need to communicate with him. In fact, Tenet flew to Texas to brief Bush on Aug. 17, 2001, and briefed the president again on Aug. 31 when Bush returned to Washington, a spokesman for Tenet said later in the day. During the first eight days of September, Tenet briefed Bush at least six times, the spokesman said.

[Foolmewunz]

MIKILLINI,
Could you use the quote button, please. Instead of hitting "Reply" and then copying the text, just hit "Quote". The post will be copied onto your new message as you see on so many other posts.

It's hard to tell where the post you're responding to ends and your words begin.

You might also explore those little icons at the top of the message you're creating. If you want to quote a document or book, the little dialogue balloon button allows you to put someone else's words in a box like the one below.

Peter Piper Picked a Peck of Pickled Peppers

Just highlight the line with your cursor and click the little dialogue balloon icon.

It will make your posts much more readable.

[MIKILLINI]

Foolmewunz thats a very distinct point, in fact is a major part of My point. Earlier in this thread I stated that Cheney is smarter than Bush, I could have mentioned many others as well other than Cheney. It is acknowledged and admitted by Bush himself that He doesn't like to read things, so this leaves it up to his advisers to brief him on what papers, memo's messages, etc. have contained in them. Now if someone working in the Administration has corporate connections, which in this administration is a good bet. It certainly is a good opportunity to leave a word out, or skew the sentence a bit. Bush wouldn't be the wiser in this, it would just make him look guilty, but at the same time have deniable plausibility on his part. In this manner, not many people would have to know and that human nature would be left to run it's course.

[MIKILLINI]

Ok that was going to be My next line of inquiry FMW..lol..than:D x

[MIKILLINI]

Karmilowicz went on from his tour of duty on Manila to Washington, then Beirut, and a later posting in Quito, Ecuador, where he was involved in a fracas which resulted in the death of an Ecuadorian national. Exonerated after a State Department investigation he served in Washington, finally leaving the service at the end of 2005.
FMW...this is in the March 9, 2006 issue of Counterpunch

[Foolmewunz]

Karmilowicz went on from his tour of duty on Manila to Washington, then Beirut, and a later posting in Quito, Ecuador, where he was involved in a fracas which resulted in the death of an Ecuadorian national. Exonerated after a State Department investigation he served in Washington, finally leaving the service at the end of 2005.
FMW...this is in the March 9, 2006 issue of Counterpunch

My bad. The site I linked to has a date on it of May 11, 2007 and doesn't mention that it's from years ago. Bad site! The release they quote is word for word from this item... I bolded the date.

WEEKLY NEWS UPDATE ON THE AMERICAS
ISSUE #672, DECEMBER 15, 2002
NICARAGUA SOLIDARITY NETWORK OF GREATER NEW YORK
339 LAFAYETTE ST., NEW YORK, NY 10012
(212) 674-9499 <wnu@igc.org>

Compliments of the folks at Tulane, I got the whole document, here....

http://www.tulane.edu/~libweb/RESTRICTED/WEEKLY/2002_1215.txt

and I'm sure it's from another source, too. But obviously it's a four year old story.

We no return to our regularly scheduled programming.

[MIKILLINI]

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.
Fixed it for ya FMW...;) plus I was trying out the quotes thing.

[Foolmewunz]

Foolmewunz thats a very distinct point, in fact is a major part of My point. Earlier in this thread I stated that Cheney is smarter than Bush, I could have mentioned many others as well other than Cheney. It is acknowledged and admitted by Bush himself that He doesn't like to read things, so this leaves it up to his advisers to brief him on what papers, memo's messages, etc. have contained in them. Now if someone working in the Administration has corporate connections, which in this administration is a good bet. It certainly is a good opportunity to leave a word out, or skew the sentence a bit. Bush wouldn't be the wiser in this, it would just make him look guilty, but at the same time have deniable plausibility on his part. In this manner, not many people would have to know and that human nature would be left to run it's course.

Wasn't this the plot of The Flintstones, The Movie?

This is the problem I have with Truther Lite. The need to paint them all as evil demonic bastages. I have no doubt that Cheney is smarter than Dubya. I have a split-leaf philodendron in my office that is smarter than Dubya.

Hell, I have no doubt that I'm smarter than W. Yet, if I read those dispatches back to back in a single precis, I wouldn't know where to put people on guard, and neither would you. There are no specifics, just general warnings that something's going to happen somewhere, perpetrated by someone(s).

As to Cheney and his corporate connections, I concur that I don't think that makes the man qualified to be a heartbeat away from the presidency, as they say. But if the performance of this government is being driven by his corporate lust for wealth and power, you have to wonder just how'd he get so successful in the first place? 'Cuz it's pretty apparent that as business decisions go, all of the results of this supposed grand theory have resulted in more crap than anything else. There is no pipeline. The oil in Iraq is not being brought into play. The American/Republican hegemony over the oil-rich states has not happened.

[MIKILLINI]

How do you get the "originally posted by" wording in there?

[Foolmewunz]

How do you get the "originally posted by" wording in there?

Look at this message. See the bottom, where it says "Quote". Instead of "Reply", hit that one. Try it.

[MIKILLINI]

As to Cheney and his corporate connections, I concur that I don't think that makes the man qualified to be a heartbeat away from the presidency, as they say. But if the performance of this government is being driven by his corporate lust for wealth and power, you have to wonder just how'd he get so successful in the first place? 'Cuz it's pretty apparent that as business decisions go, all of the results of this supposed grand theory have resulted in more crap than anything else. There is no pipeline. The oil in Iraq is not being brought into play. The American/Republican hegemony over the oil-rich states has not happened.

Well that one was wanted by the oil companies, the oil compnies have wanted their claws in the Middle East for many years, but the corporate ties within this administration go beyond just oil. The oil companies can still make their money without the expense of a pipeline by agreeing to PSA's (Preferred Sharing Agreements) with Iraq. These PSA's always favor oil companies, because their take is roughly 80%. In other words, whatever country they are taking the oil out of, the oil itself belongs to whichever company has signed the PSA agreement. The country certainly gets a raw deal, but thats the way it is. A corporatocracy is what John Perkins calls it (The author of "Confessions Of An Economic Hit Man"). All that's needed is control of the Strait of Hormuz, and a military presence in the Middle East.

[MIKILLINI]

Look at this message. See the bottom, where it says "Quote". Instead of "Reply", hit that one. Try it.

Here goes

[MIKILLINI]

Once again FMW thanx.. I so appreciate it.

[T.A.M.]

okay I will make it as simple as I can.

I know there are lots of clippings, media bits, to show that there was confusion, perhaps even evidence of deliberate ignorance of advice or fact....

What it would take to prove to me that BUSH etal KNEW that an attack on USA SOIL was coming in the next 2-3 months, but purposely chose to ignore this and all other warnings BECAUSE they wanted the terrorist attacks to occur, would be a statement from a top official or a report from an internal investigation that proved as much.

Yes what I need is asking alot, but there you have it.

You see, from my pov, what you have shown me, are a number of articles that allude to possible coverup, but do not indicate what they were covering up EXACTLY and why.

Has Tenet claimed he told the president that they had good intelligence that an attack was coming to US Soil in the next 2-3 months, with some degree of certaintly as to where in the US and how (method)? Or rather, has Tenet said..."well I told the president the US would be attacked by terrorists in the near future, and he seemed unimpressed."

Likewise, if the president did ignore what Tenet said, was it because (A) he wanted a terrorist attack to occur, or (B) because he felt the chances of it happening were slim, and did not want to be bothered with it?


TAM:)

[MIKILLINI]

Your right about the "truther lite" how they contain things into an evil government. I don't do that, this government is ENORMOUS and there are many hardworking individuals in this government, but it only takes a few elites within the government with lobbyists close by who have interests, even former Congressmen have become lobbyists themselves...that is part of the problem; It screws it up for the rest of Us. Campaign money draws a lot of corporate interests in the Legislative and Executive branches of this government; The saying here goes "Money talks...Bulls*** walks.

[MIKILLINI]

Tam; what I imply is another investigation. Why does George Tenant keep visiting Bush? 6 times in September? And that was before the 11th. The terrorists were already here in the U.S.
When John O Neill went over to investigate the Cole bombing, he was met by Barbara Bodine the Ambassador to Yemeni. She did not like his type of tactics and Maverick style, for fear of making the U.S. look bad to the Yemeni government. But he was the type to "think outside the box" and immediately suggested the Israeli's played a part in the bombing and that there is nill to nothing of cooperation from the Saudi's. My point is there is also a possible connection to Lihop by fear of a potential international incident. Such as Tenet or Rummy or Dick or someone in the State Department slowing down the transition of information or telling a little lie to dissuade concerns others may have.

[T.A.M.]

From my pov, If there has been no proof of LIHOP, than I see no reason to believe LIHOp happened.

For now, I have been shown some evidence that people in the administration might have been covering something up...hiding something...for now nothing more.

So for now I will leave it as such.

TAM:)

[MIKILLINI]

Thats how I think it is too....what is being covered up? I would like to know.

[Foolmewunz]

I think you have to separate the exploitation of certain events from the possible collusion in them.

Politicians everywhere are generally out for three or four things, and they're all generally related. Power, money, personal glory, attention. Many have legitimate agendas of their own, but the ultimate goal is rather simple. Get re-elected. It makes lining up at the public trough so much easier when you get to always be first in line because of your neato government pass.

Would someone with an agenda possibly exploit something as tragic as the attack on the Cole? Sure. It doesn't seem to have stuck very well, but look at the Maine and the USS Liberty. Still going the rounds!

Think of opportunist politicians as Rush Limbaugh with a better tailor. Rush doesn't plan the stuff he milks in his daily ranting commentaries, but he sure as hell benefits from them. Did Dubya and Cheney take advantage of the national sentiment after 9/11? I firmly believe the answer to this is "Yes", but that's a far cry from proving that they planned it.

I (and my company) benefited greatly from China being given membership in the WTO. By Truther Lite logic, that would mean that we had a hand in it. Believe me, we have an office in Geneva, but no one called us into a round of cigars and cognac to discuss how much we could make moving containers out of China.

In LIHOP circles it's called 'connecting the dots'. They like to make it seem like those dots are all on a nice even two dimensional plane, while they're really in three dimensions and so far flung that if you connect all of the insane LIHOP theories with string, you'd need several hundred metres of the stuff, and when you were done, it'd look like a Jackson Pollock painting.

[boloboffin]

This will never happen.

There's a little bugaboo of intellectual property law in which works can be ruled to be public domain if their rightsholders do not adequately protect them against infringements. This is why companies like Disney are complete jerks about even the tiniest copyright infringements: if they don't defend their copyrights, they risk losing them. This may also partially explain the overzealous behavior of the RIAA/MPAA about file-sharing.

Furthermore, various version of LC are coated with "make copies and give to your friends to spread TEH TWOOF" type language, which could be construed as permission to copy/redistribute.

Dylan Avery has allowed LC to be distributed far and wide, and included language implying permission to do so. He's probably also said things on his forum that could be construed as permission to copy/redistribute. For these reasons, he would have a very difficult time asserting intellectual property rights over his own movie.

STANDARD DISCLAIMER: The above is my understanding from a "Law of Mass Communications" college course I took in 1996. Things may have changed since then. And I may have remembered some of it wrong. If this turns out to be the case, I blame the booze.

That may be true for Versions 1-3 that we have already seen. But to my eyes, Dylan and Co. appear to be circling the wagons around LC:FE. This one has Charlie Sheen's voice on it. This is a "complete rewrite," although Cuban's account of it seems to differ with that. Whereas they couldn't sue about the earlier versions, the number of players involved makes a lawsuit over the unauthorized distribution of this latest product very likely.

The fans are going to have to choose between Dylan's right to make a buck off his work and getting the gospel out about 9/11. What do you think they will choose? ;)

[TjW]

That may be true for Versions 1-3 that we have already seen. But to my eyes, Dylan and Co. appear to be circling the wagons around LC:FE. This one has Charlie Sheen's voice on it. This is a "complete rewrite," although Cuban's account of it seems to differ with that. Whereas they couldn't sue about the earlier versions, the number of players involved makes a lawsuit over the unauthorized distribution of this latest product very likely.

The fans are going to have to choose between Dylan's right to make a buck off his work and getting the gospel out about 9/11. What do you think they will choose? ;)

You mean it won't be Loose Change: Free Edition?

[Civilized Worm]

Surely if the government had stopped the attacks they would still have been able to use them as a reason for the Patriot act, Afganistan etc and with the added bonus of increasing the public's faith in them?

[Alt+F4]

Does Mark Cuban still want a SLC type of rebuttal in Final Cut?

[MIKILLINI]

I think you have to separate the exploitation of certain events from the possible collusion in them.

Politicians everywhere are generally out for three or four things, and they're all generally related. Power, money, personal glory, attention. Many have legitimate agendas of their own, but the ultimate goal is rather simple. Get re-elected. It makes lining up at the public trough so much easier when you get to always be first in line because of your neato government pass.

OK, I absolutely agree with that, and when i write to them, they like to praise their work and how they are doing all these things for you. And, of course, the usual; " other party" doesn't do what this party's doing...blah, blah, blah.
When I wrote to Dick Durbin and Barack Obama (Both Senators from my state, both Democrats) about pulling the troops out of Iraq, they both sent basically the same response...We did not support the war, Obama voted for it, cuz he wanted everyone to be on the same page, Durbin did not vote for it for the reason of it wasn't necessary. But both of them put the responsibility on Bush in that He has final say so in the matter, so only he can withdraw troops. In My next letter, I reminded them that they are Congress and they have the Constitutional power of the purse; All they have to do is vote to not fund the war anymore, this is what happened with Vietnam. And that an exit is not a strategy, it's a command. Withdrawal procedures are left up to the Generals.
Neither Obama nor Durbin have written back to Me since, so I must have ruffled some feathers.

[gumboot]

In regards to foreknowledge, I don't think you can discount the possibility of Al Qaeda-generated noise.

Al Qaeda knew what they were doing. Having been looking into this in the last week, I'm impressed at how sophisticated their operation was (impressed and disturbed).

As an example, they specifically trained the "muscle hijackers" how to seize an airliner quickly. They practised quickly securing the cockpit, killing the pilots, and worrying about the passengers later. They were briefed on how the authorities would respond to a hijacking, and their actions took advantage of this. However they were also trained in a whole heap of things that weren't related to the attack - making truck bombs, and so forth. The intention behind this was to keep the hijackers in the dark as to their mission for as long as possible, so if they were caught authorities wouldn't know what attack was coming, and the plan could continue ahead with replacements.

This is very sophisticated. It would not surprise me in the least if Al Qaeda was leaking false threat information about unrelated attacks to confuse the system. This would explain why it was "blinking red".

The second thing to consider... there's this regular theme of "what did Bush know" yada yada, as if the Administration needed to do something to stop the attacks. This is nonsense. Both the CIA and the FBI already had a mandate to try prevent terrorist attacks. They had the laws they had to work within (which weren't going to change simply because the administration wanted them too). It's not like the FBI or CIA tells the administration about a threat and then sits around twiddling their thumbs until Bush tells them what to do.

-Gumboot

[Slayhamlet]

In regards to foreknowledge, I don't think you can discount the possibility of Al Qaeda-generated noise.

Al Qaeda knew what they were doing. Having been looking into this in the last week, I'm impressed at how sophisticated their operation was (impressed and disturbed).

As an example, they specifically trained the "muscle hijackers" how to seize an airliner quickly. They practised quickly securing the cockpit, killing the pilots, and worrying about the passengers later. They were briefed on how the authorities would respond to a hijacking, and their actions took advantage of this. However they were also trained in a whole heap of things that weren't related to the attack - making truck bombs, and so forth. The intention behind this was to keep the hijackers in the dark as to their mission for as long as possible, so if they were caught authorities wouldn't know what attack was coming, and the plan could continue ahead with replacements.

This is very sophisticated. It would not surprise me in the least if Al Qaeda was leaking false threat information about unrelated attacks to confuse the system. This would explain why it was "blinking red".

The second thing to consider... there's this regular theme of "what did Bush know" yada yada, as if the Administration needed to do something to stop the attacks. This is nonsense. Both the CIA and the FBI already had a mandate to try prevent terrorist attacks. They had the laws they had to work within (which weren't going to change simply because the administration wanted them too). It's not like the FBI or CIA tells the administration about a threat and then sits around twiddling their thumbs until Bush tells them what to do.

-Gumboot


No, that can't be true. Everyone knows Arabs are stupid and incompetent cavedwellers. [/truther]

[MIKILLINI]

Surely if the government had stopped the attacks they would still have been able to use them as a reason for the Patriot act, Afganistan etc and with the added bonus of increasing the public's faith in them?

At face value, those agencies involved with the investigation of terrorists had very good evidence. They were checking out the right people, at various times they had some of the perps in custody before 9/11.
The Patriot Act was an "opportunity", I believe, to control information, to have access to all information.
This afforded the Administration an advantage, not having to worry about laws that restrict how this information is gained. Congress was given little time to sign it, so they did not read it. When they did actually read it, they threw a fit.
Usually polls conduct how popular the President is, how good of a job is he doing in times of crisis? Not many polls are conducted toward how good of a job do you believe the Congress is doing.
As far as invading Afghanistan, this is interesting, because it appears an invasion was desired before 9/11. You can find it here;
projectcensored.org/downloads/Global_Dominance_Group.pdf

[gumboot]

As far as invading Afghanistan, this is interesting, because it appears an invasion was desired before 9/11. You can find it here;


Let me guess, and oil pipeline? :rolleyes:

-Gumboot

[CHF]

Let me guess, and oil pipeline? :rolleyes:

-Gumboot

Of course!

The UNOCAL oil pipeline....the one that would have actually transported gas....the same one that was cancelled in 1998.

Or maybe he means the pipeline plan signed in 2002...the one that has gone nowhere since no oil companies are investing in it.

That's why we went to war :rolleyes:

[MIKILLINI]

Thinking in terms of just a pipeline is narrow minded. Area region dominance is more of the desire the GDG would like. A pipeline is to easily disrupted by factions....for instance...it took only Al Queda to do what they did for the U.S. to create the response called "The global war on terror". Yes, it took only Al- Queda to pull of 9/11. Now would you, being an oil company, want to build a pipeline stretching 1000 miles or so, vulnerable to any attack, by a numerous amount of factions? That's pretty much a NO! If you're a politician, or lobbyist, you would, more than likely, think in terms as investment in a pipeline because it is a cheaper way to deliver oil; cutting down on distance compared to shipping it, thinking in terms of skimming a little profit that way. To the oil companies this is not a big deal, they don't need a pipeline. Whatever oil company signs a Preferred Sharing Agreement in whatever country, it is now their oil, they take around 80% of the profit. Where they get it, and which area(s) it goes to be transported to refineries are the only details left.

[MIKILLINI]

To add to the post above, now that the military is in Iraq, Iran is of special interest to these people. There is a vast deposit there of natural gas and oil and China has been quick to jump on this and last year signed an agreement with Iran for rights to buy in these deposits. Iran stated they want to be paid in Euro dollars instead of U.S. dollars. This creates a big problem for the U.S., since this would mean a major economic shift. This also becomes a strange scenario, since over half of our debt is financed by....of all places...China.
This makes a logical case for wanting area dominance, Bush has said he is not leaving Iraq, and he has already done some sabre rattling towards Iran.

[gumboot]

Wait... I'm confused...

Why did we want to invade Afghanistan again?

-Gumboot

[jhunter1163]

To add to the post above, now that the military is in Iraq, Iran is of special interest to these people. There is a vast deposit there of natural gas and oil and China has been quick to jump on this and last year signed an agreement with Iran for rights to buy in these deposits. Iran stated they want to be paid in Euro dollars instead of U.S. dollars. This creates a big problem for the U.S., since this would mean a major economic shift. This also becomes a strange scenario, since over half of our debt is financed by....of all places...China.
This makes a logical case for wanting area dominance, Bush has said he is not leaving Iraq, and he has already done some sabre rattling towards Iran.


The euro is at an all-time high against the dollar. Why would you want to be paid in dollars? The Chinese probably use dollars to apply their shoe polish.

[MIKILLINI]

Wait... I'm confused...

Why did we want to invade Afghanistan again?

-Gumboot

Area dominance..from project censored;

Journalist John Pilger recalled how he interviewed neo-conservative Richard
Perle during the Reagan administration.
"I interviewed Perle when he was advising Reagan; and when he
spoke about 'total war,' I mistakenly dismissed him as mad. He recently
used the term again in describing America's 'war on terror'. 'No stages,' he
said. 'This is total war.' We are fighting a variety of enemies. There are
lots of them out there. All this talk about first we are going to do
Afghanistan, then we will do Iraq . . . this is entirely the wrong way to go
about it. If we just let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it
entirely and we don't try to piece together clever diplomacy, but just wage
a total war . . . our children will sing great songs about us years from
now."18
The election of George H.W. Bush to the Presidency and the appointment of Dick
Cheney as Secretary of Defense expanded the presence of neo-conservatives within the
government and after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 allowed for the formal initiation
of a global dominance policy.
In 1992 Dick Cheney supported Lewis Libby and Paul Wolfowitz in producing
the “Defense Planning Guidance” report, which advocated US military dominance
around the globe in a "new order." The report called for the United States to grow in
military superiority and to prevent new rivals from rising up to challenge us on the world
stage. Using words like "unilateral action" and military "forward presence," the report
advocated that the US dominate friends and foes alike. It concluded with the assertion
that the US can best attain this position by making itself “absolutely powerful.”19
The Defense Policy Guidance report was leaked to the press and came under
heavy criticism from many members of the HCPE (Higher circle policy elites). The New York Times reported on
March 11, 1992 that,
"Senior White House and State Department officials have harshly
criticized a draft Pentagon policy statement that asserts that America's
mission in the post-cold-war era will be to prevent any collection of
friendly or unfriendly nations from competing with the United States for
superpower status.”20

18 John Pilger, “The World Will Know The Truth,” New Statesman (London) (December 16 2002).

19 Peter Phillips, The Neoconservative Plan for Global Dominance, in Censored 2006, (New York: Seven
Stories Press), (http://www.projectcensored.orgl).
Excerpts from the 1992 Draft “Defense Planning Guidance” can be accessed at
(http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/iraq/etc/wolf.html).
20 Patrick E. Tyler, “Senior U.S. Officials Assail Lone-Superpower Policy," New York Times, March 11,
1992P. A6.

Area dominance of this region would be control of a very dominant asset; Oil.
To remain an economic superpower, and keep in mind it is an empire, maintaining control of oil is the key to blocking any other nation from having this very same resource. The reasoning here is to have global dominance, economicly and militarily.

HCPE advocates for a US led "New World Order," along with Reagan/Bush hardliners,
and other military expansionists, founded the PNAC in June of 1997. Their
Statement of Principles called for the need to guide principles for American foreign
policy and the creation of a strategic vision for America's role in the world. PNAC set
forth their aims with the following statement:
• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out
our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the
future;
• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge
regimes hostile to our interests and values;
• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;
• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving
and extending an international order friendly to our security, our
prosperity, and our principles.
• Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not
be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on
the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our
greatness in the next."27
The statement was signed by Elliott Abrams, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb
Bush, Dick Cheney, Eliot A. Cohen, Midge Decter, Paula Dobriansky, Steve Forbes,
Aaron Friedberg, Francis Fukuyama, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle, Donald Kagan,
Zalmay Khalilzad, I. Lewis Libby, Norman Podhoretz, Dan Quayle, Peter W. Rodman,
Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen, Donald Rumsfeld, Vin Weber, George Weigel, and Paul Wolfowitz. Of the twenty-five founders of PNAC twelve were later appointed to
high level positions in the George W. Bush administration.28
Since its founding, the PNAC has attracted numerous others who have signed
policy letters or participated in the group. Within the PNAC, eight have been affiliated
with the number one defense contractor Lockheed-Martin, and seven were associated
with the number three defense contractor Northrop Grumman. 29 PNAC is one of several
institutions that connect global dominance HCPE and large US military contractors.30
In September 2,000, PNAC produced a 76-page report entitled Rebuilding
America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century.31 The report was similar to the Defense Policy Guidance document written by Lewis Libby and Paul Wolfowitz in 1992.
This is not surprising in that Libby and Wolfowitz were participants in the production of the 2000 PNAC report.
Steven Cambone, Doc Zakheim, Mark Lagan, and David Epstein were also heavily involved. Each of these individuals would go on to hold high-level positions in the George W. Bush administration. 32
Rebuilding America's Defenses called for the protection of the American
Homeland, the ability to wage simultaneous theater wars, perform global constabulary roles, and the control of space and cyberspace. It claimed that the 1990s was a decade of defense neglect and that the US must increase military spending to preserve American geopolitical leadership as the world's superpower. The report claimed that in order to maintain a Pax Americana, potential rivals — such as China, Iran, Iraq, and North Korea
— needed to be held in check. The report also recognized that: "the process of transformation … is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event such as a new Pearl Harbor." 33
The events of September 11, 2001 were exactly the kind of catastrophe that the authors of Rebuilding America' Defenses theorized was needed to accelerate a global dominance agenda.

26 Peter Phillips, A Relative Advantage: Sociology of the San Francisco Bohemian Club, 1994,
(http://libweb.sonoma.edu/regional/faculty/phillips/bohemianindex.html), p. 104,
Note: While I heard this speech myself, a pre-agreement with my host required that the name of the speakers and other participants
be kept confidential.

27Project for a New American Century, Statement of Principles, June 3, 1997
(http://www.newamericancentury.org).

28 Positions held by PNAC founders in the George W. Bush administration: Elliot Abrams, National Security Council, Dick Cheney, Vice-President, Paula Dobriansky, Dept. of State, Under Sec. of Global Affairs, Aaron Friedberg, Vice President's Deputy National Security Advisor, Francis Fukuyama,Presidents Council on Bioethics, Zalmay Khalilzad, US Ambassador to Afghanistan, Lewis Libby, Chief of Staff for the Vice President, Peter Rodman, DOD, Assist. Sec. Of Defense for International Security, Henry S. Rowen, Defense Policy Board, Comm. On Intelligence Capabilities of US regarding WMDs, Donald Rumsfled, Secretary of Defense, Vin Weber, National Commission Public Service, Paul Wolfowitz, Dep. Sec. Of Defense, Pres. World Bank.

29 Ted Nace, Gangs of America, (San Francisco: Berrett-Koehler Publishers Inc., 2003) P. 186.

30 For a full review of the Global Dominance Group listing key advocates for military expansion and
affiliates of the major defense contractors see appendix A.

31 The Project for a New American Century, Rebuilding America’s Defenses, Project for a New American Century: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century, September 2000 (www.newamericancentury.org).

32 David Epstein, Office of Sec. Of Defense, Steve Cambone, NSA, Dov Zakheim, CFO Dept. of Defense, Mark Lagan, Dep. Assist. Sec. Of State.

33 The Project for a New American Century, Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and
Resources for a New Century, (www.newamericancentury.org).

Benefiting significantly from expanded military spending after 9/11 were a group of Department of Defense (DoD) and Homeland Security contractors. For the purposes of this study, we included the top seven military contractors who derive at least one third of their income for DoD contracts in our study group. Additionally, we added in The Caryle Group and Bechtel Group Inc. because of their high levels of political influence and revolving door personnel within the Reagan and Bush 1&2 administrations.35
These corporations have benefited significantly from post-9/11 policies. Our goals are to identify the primary advocates for a global dominance policy within the HCPE and the principle beneficiaries of this policy. We believe that by identifying the most important policy advocates and those corporate heads who have the most to gain from a global dominance policy that we can begin to establish the parameters of the individuals involved in the Global Dominance Group (GDG) among the HCPE. Knowing the general parameters of the GDG will provide an understanding of who had means, opportunity and motive to have initiated a post-9/11 acceleration of neo-conservative military expansion
towards the goal of assuming full spectrum military dominance of the world.
Understanding the parameters of the GDG will also allow researchers to explore the possibilities of insider pre-knowledge of the 9/11 attacks. These are classic sociological questions of who wins and who looses within class structures, policy processes, and state decision-making.

You can read all this and more in

http://www.projectcensored.org/downloads/Global_Dominance_Group.pdf

[MIKILLINI]

The euro is at an all-time high against the dollar. Why would you want to be paid in dollars? The Chinese probably use dollars to apply their shoe polish.

Thanks for making My point, jhunter. In as far as the Iranians go, this is precisely why they stipulated the Chinese pay them in euros. I'm not a political major, but as a beer drinking semi-illiterate myself, I have an opinion on this bit.
China has equal status with the U.S., militarily, and they can field a 200,000,000 man army (as claimed by them many years before) . But they had seen that Japan became a power without a military; an economic power.
Manufacturing brings on advancements in technology and these get applied into military weapons. Many manufacturing businesses have relocated to China, China has recognized the importance of being a power, economicly. They are working on area dominance themselves. Of course they will finance the U.S. debt; If the U.S. is in debt to them, and the U.S. does not have a manufacturing base as in the previous years, then who has the advantage here? Now comes the most valuable asset in this area, and who can receive
it more easily, simply because of their location? China. And since the Iranians have secured contracts with China for rights to some of their oil and natural gas, and have agreed to payments made in Euros, then this presents a big problem for the U.S., economicly.
Holding on to Iraq becomes more significant in this area against that type of backdrop, this is probably why Bush refuses to pull the troops out...at least until there is the typical right-wing dictatorship put in to place thats loyal to the U.S...good luck with that one.

[Furcifer]

Ok, i'm new to the conspiracy game so i'm sure this has been asked before, but why does the CT agenda always end in Iraq with oil? Why go all the way around the world, when there are countries like [gulp] Canada or even better (you never no who's gonna read these posts ;)) Venezuela with large oil reserves? Is there a legitimate reason to even suspect the trouble in Iraq is worth the "oil"? I've seen nothing beneficial in regards to oil come from this war, why would i believe that this is the purpose? I know this is a little off topic, if need be i will start a new thread. But i'm only looking for a very simple answer, i think.

[hellaeon]

[tiny derail]

I know that lots of people don't like the music behind most truther video. I keep thinking that it's just that older people naturally don't like younger people's music. They don't like to call it music even, and you can point to examples of this all the way back in recorded history, if you will grant me that generalization.

And since I turn 40 this year, I keep waiting for it to happen, the day the music turns into noise. But so far it hasn't. I like rap, I like techno, I like funky experimental sound stuff, I like dance remix, I like polka, I like country (the twangier without self-parody, the better), I like classic rock, I like pop, I like classical, I like jazz oh baby.

The music of LC is just as much a part of the propaganda as anything. The rap, which sounds completely original (which means I can't tell what they're sampling if they are), is part of the appeal of the piece. It is very true to itself - the one irreducible minimum I ask of my music. It is about anger and outrage and organization of chaos, appealing strongly to testosterone.

Instead of railing against the content and sound of the music, it would be better to show how the music manipulates the viewer as much as the editing. More people need to be made aware of how music shuts down their critical thinking and makes them more susceptible to suggestion. In the hocus-pocus world of 9/11 truth, one of their most potent weapons is their kickin' soundtrack. Music assists the illusion of coherence and certainty.

Just because you personally hate the music doesn't mean the music isn't good. It is. And DylanCo will be making plenty of bucks off the soundtrack. After all, you've got to give the fans what they want.

Rap is not music. It is a poet with a backing track to help keep timing. There is a skill in the literature provided but the musical aspect is not given even slightly the same consideration.

I have spoken.

Lets get back to talking about the movie - Mikillini welcome to the forum but please start a new thread with your claims and thoughts.

[MIKILLINI]

Thanks for the welcome Hellaeon, basically Loose Change had received My attention last year, but I didn't believe the government had to plant explosive devices in the trade towers to make them collapse, that idea seemed a real stretch to me. Nor did I buy into the the Pentagon being hit by a missle. what interests Me is the politics of government, corporate, and social agendas. When these mix together, thats what i find to be the real area to explore. So that is about the only real credit I can give to Loose Change for causing Me to delve into the discrepancies of 9/11.
Perhaps they should have the Blue Man Group on the soundtrack.:cool:

[gumboot]

China has equal status with the U.S., militarily, and they can field a 200,000,000 man army (as claimed by them many years before) .

I very much doubt either of those things are true.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Rap is not music. It is a poet with a backing track to help keep timing. There is a skill in the literature provided but the musical aspect is not given even slightly the same consideration.


That really depends on the rapper though, doesn't it?

If you ask me, most rap is just lame. I can't stand it. I think the lyrics and music are equally shoddy.

But there are exceptions, that indicate to me that it's as valid a type of music as any other form. I'm also aware that my dislike of rap is simply my opinion, and it is popular with many people.

The very first music created by humans was nothing more than "a poet with a back track to help keep timing" (chanting and drums).

-Gumboot

[Peephole]

In regards to foreknowledge, I don't think you can discount the possibility of Al Qaeda-generated noise.
It's what the French suspect.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/04/16/international/i121204D33.DTL

[NeoRicen]

In regards to foreknowledge I don't think some people understand that that could mean anything from "Some Al Qaeda terrorists want to attack us" to "19 Al Qaeda operatives have plans to hijack 4 planes on September 11 2001 and fly them into the Pentagon, the WTCs and another building".

We KNOW they knew the former, perhaps a little more but there's little evidence they knew enough to stop it in time (with more investigation they might have but that's not what we're discussing).

[hellaeon]

That really depends on the rapper though, doesn't it?

If you ask me, most rap is just lame. I can't stand it. I think the lyrics and music are equally shoddy.

But there are exceptions, that indicate to me that it's as valid a type of music as any other form. I'm also aware that my dislike of rap is simply my opinion, and it is popular with many people.

The very first music created by humans was nothing more than "a poet with a back track to help keep timing" (chanting and drums).

-Gumboot

That very first music of chanting and the like was done for many reasons and the music was considered a branch to the spiritual side. Rap is crap. hahaha. Its a reflection of gang ethics and morals and has no interest in actual musical quality. I was being politically correct in saying the skill is in the literature. Reallythe skill is where if you can rhyme and do it on time, then far from sublime you'll make a dime....

[MIKILLINI]

I very much doubt either of those things are true.

-Gumboot

About the 200,000,000 man army...Chairman Mao Tse-tung boasted this in the 60's..even though it doesn't tell how well trained they are. I suspect a high percentage would be shown how to load their weapon and told to point it at the enemy, and fire, since many will be conscripted in at a moments notice.
On a military scale, the nuke accuracy is less than the U.S., but if it were a conflict between these two countries and the conflict happens in the asian theatre...yeah, I would say its equal.

But thats beside the point, the idea here in this region is economics for now. This benefits China when our trade deficit grows larger with them, ultimately they will achieve dominance in this region if things continue as they are.

[Corsair 115]

On a military scale, the nuke accuracy is less than the U.S., but if it were a conflict between these two countries and the conflict happens in the asian theatre...yeah, I would say its equal.The ability of current aircraft to devastate land forces is quite phenomenal these days. If the U.S. has air superiority over the battlefield, I'd expect enemy ground forces to have a most unpleasant time. If the U.S. has air supremacy, it'd be even worse.

[MIKILLINI]

Well there is something I have to agree with you on gumboot, in that most rap music I don't care much for either, with a very few exceptions. I've always loved Rock'NRoll, but there are other Genre's all across the spectrum I like, but it's mainly rock'n'roll that is my passion. I can thank my dad for that one, but his passion is for country. I tried to give my daughter this love of rock, and she likes all of what I listen to, ...but...her passion is...rap.:rolleyes:

[gumboot]

About the 200,000,000 man army...Chairman Mao Tse-tung boasted this in the 60's..even though it doesn't tell how well trained they are. I suspect a high percentage would be shown how to load their weapon and told to point it at the enemy, and fire, since many will be conscripted in at a moments notice.


The total Chinese military is 7 million, with a standing army of 2 million. They have an estimated 500 million fit for military service (that's male and female) however they would not have even a remote hope of equipping that many, let alone training them.




On a military scale, the nuke accuracy is less than the U.S., but if it were a conflict between these two countries and the conflict happens in the asian theatre...yeah, I would say its equal.


If there was in the near future full scale non-nuclear "total war" between the USA and China (not considering allies) anywhere on the planet, China would be annihilated.




But thats beside the point, the idea here in this region is economics for now. This benefits China when our trade deficit grows larger with them, ultimately they will achieve dominance in this region if things continue as they are.


Absolutely, economically speaking China is a major threat to the Anglo-sphere. Already China is beginning to threaten Australia and New Zealand's sphere of influence in the Pacific. It is quite alarming.

As with any situation where major powers rise to compete with each other, it will ultimately be decided by armed conflict. It is inevitable.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

The ability of current aircraft to devastate land forces is quite phenomenal these days. If the U.S. has air superiority over the battlefield, I'd expect enemy ground forces to have a most unpleasant time. If the U.S. has air supremacy, it'd be even worse.


In many ways, the USA would do better against China than against Iraq. Although they are changing their doctrine, most of their current military hardware and training is focused on strategic warfare - something they haven't been engaged in for some time.

The key to Strategic Warfare is force projection, and the USA is the only country in the world with effective force projection capabilities.

-Gumboot

[MIKILLINI]

The ability of current aircraft to devastate land forces is quite phenomenal these days. If the U.S. has air superiority over the battlefield, I'd expect enemy ground forces to have a most unpleasant time. If the U.S. has air supremacy, it'd be even worse.

Certainly in the Asian theatre , the U.S. has battle groups stationed, but if this leaves them vulnerable to a well armed enemy, such as China, you can bet it will turn into the possibility of nuclear exchange. For this reason alone neither side will wage war militarily, but politics and economics is the battle being conducted here.

[gumboot]

That very first music of chanting and the like was done for many reasons and the music was considered a branch to the spiritual side. Rap is crap. hahaha. Its a reflection of gang ethics and morals and has no interest in actual musical quality. I was being politically correct in saying the skill is in the literature. Reallythe skill is where if you can rhyme and do it on time, then far from sublime you'll make a dime....



I pretty much agree with your evaluation of the artistic merits of rap music, however simply because you do not like it does not mean it is not music.

-Gumboot

[MIKILLINI]

I'm keeping the reference to music...somewhat..like conducted and theatre..
Corsair, is your moniker a derivative from the F4U corsair? Made famous from "Pappy" Boyingtons' Black Sheep squadron?

[Dog Town]

Rap is not music.

A-men...I always thought, we were brothers from a diff mother! I sent her roses.
Spent the day, drinking with Ozzies, got a Sheila here now, she says hey!

DT

[JamesB]

. Iran stated they want to be paid in Euro dollars instead of U.S. dollars. This creates a big problem for the U.S., since this would mean a major economic shift. This also becomes a strange scenario, since over half of our debt is financed by....of all places...China.


No they don't. The Chinese hold about a trillion dollars, mostly in treasuries, they have to because they have pegged the Yuan to the dollar, but they have not financed "over half our debt" not even close.

[uk_dave]

OMG, please tell me Avery hasn't lost his distributor?
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9125

LUCUS:

If or if not Cuban does anything, he has already helped the movement by saying publicly that he would, which brought MUCH media attention to it.

I did not trust that guy in the first place if you remember I was the one who recalled Halifaxion's encounter with Magnolia. That is actually the reason why I joined this forum was to bring up that specific subject.

But...nonetheless, he helped.

No matter what, 9/11 truth will soon roll over the nay-sayers like a steamroller over an ant mound.

As in the words of Rage Against the Machine;

NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRY YOU CAN'T STOP US NOW!So modest

Speaker City:
OMG a random person posted a comment on a thread that has nothing to do with LCFC, LTW, Cuban, or Magnolia! It must be true! Nevermind the press release put out a few days ago, we've got an anonymous person's inside info from Griffin.

You people and your willingness to believe anything REALLY make us look bad.So true

Headhunter:
I do believe you lack discernment. Dylan is "enigs". He posted to it. Didn't deny it. And I don't think the friend of DRG's was lying. It's called "reading between the lines". Like I said, if true, it'll turn out to be a real Godsend. Cuban was SEVERELY going to restrict distribution. Now anything is possible.So depressing. Now we may have to wait another bloody year until the Loosers find the backing for their little film. Can't they just release it on youtube and be done with it?

That way we can get it over with and move on to something more productive...like watching paint dry.

[jhunter1163]

My point was, Mikillini, that's exactly WHY the Iranians want to be paid in euros. It's not because they hate the US, it's because they want to MAKE MORE MONEY. It's a financial decision. If the dollar suddenly became strong against the euro, what do you suppose the Iranians would do?

[qarnos]

Like I said, if true, it'll turn out to be a real Godsend. Cuban was SEVERELY going to restrict distribution. Now anything is possible.


If not having Cuban involved is a good thing for the CT brigade, then why didn't Dylan give him the boot? I mean - what on Earth would Dylan willingly compromise the "truth" for?

Why would Dylan agree to a restricted distribution just because a guy with lots and lots of money wants him to?

:D

[uk_dave]

If not having Cuban involved is a good thing for the CT brigade, then why didn't Dylan give him the boot? I mean - what on Earth would Dylan willingly compromise the "truth" for?

Why would Dylan agree to a restricted distribution just because a guy with lots and lots of money wants him to?

:D

I dunno, but I'm fairly sure the 'truth' movement is approaching it's 'use by' date, so they'd better bloody hurry up and get it released.

At the rate they're going the new WTC towers will be built before avery's little film sees the light of day.

[jhunter1163]

What Cuban said to Dylan:

"Young filmmaker, LC:FC is a total cock-up. You haven't a leg to stand on, and you also have no grasp of journalistic principles".

[Twoofy editing ensues]

What Dylan reported to the Twoofers:

Cuban said "Cocky young filmmaker, LC:FC is journalism. You have a grasp of principles and just need a leg up."

[gumboot]

Area dominance of this region would be control of a very dominant asset; Oil.


Except it wouldn't. Afghanistan is not a strategically important site, and it won't aide in controlling oil.

There's no logical reason whatsoever to go into Afghanistan, except to kill terrorists.

-Gumboot

[ref]

That Vesa, who originally wrote on the 9/11 Blogger that Cuban was no longer involved, is from Finland. I actually challenged him on the blog, but he never responded. He has written truther blogs both in English and Finnish, so I would say it's quite possible he is telling the truth. No more Cuban possibly :)

[T.A.M.]

When I hear Dylan's off-cuff remarks about Cuban. I am reminded of a Documentary I saw on a filmaker who had a script that got turned into a hollywood film...overnight the guy was the next big thing...Duffy I think his last name was. Anyway, he became so full of himself, so arrogant, that he started to bad mouth the bigwig producer that got him there...the producer was one of the hollywood heavies...cant remember his name.

Anyway, when word got back to the heavy that this guy (Troy Duffy I think his name was) was bad mouthing him...well lets just say the former "star" is now bartending last checked.

A lesson to be learned? dunno.

TAM:)

[R.Mackey]

Except it wouldn't. Afghanistan is not a strategically important site, and it won't aide in controlling oil.

There's no logical reason whatsoever to go into Afghanistan, except to kill terrorists.

-Gumboot

Well, there is one other logical reason, of course, having to do with geopolitics -- Afghanistan, along with Iraq, brackets Iran. I see the move into Afghanistan as not only "killing terrorists," but also an integral part of the more broadly conceived "war on terror." Provided they hadn't made a hash of it, this would eventually lead to more influence in the Gulf, but I see nothing sinister here.

Follow-ups to Politics forum.

[gumboot]

I don't see how it is that Troofers would think getting rid of their distribution deal would increase their distribution.

Dammit I want to live in this world!

-Gumboot

[T.A.M.]

The Documentary was called "Overnight" and is well worth a watch.

TAM:)

[MIKILLINI]

No they don't. The Chinese hold about a trillion dollars, mostly in treasuries, they have to because they have pegged the Yuan to the dollar, but they have not financed "over half our debt" not even close.

Ok, James B I stand corrected, it's not half...but they are the single biggest buyer. If the dollar drops, then this will be a problem ...a 20% drop, for instance, will cost Chinese banks $200 billion and force the U.S. to raise the interest rates to make up the difference.

[Corsair 115]

Corsair, is your moniker a derivative from the F4U corsair?Yes it is. The best fighter aircraft in WWII... or at least my favourite at any rate. :)