manifests

[alexg]

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/docs/

Are these docs the best link to the flight manifests which show hijacker names on the manifests? Someone is claiming they are less than reliable and I just don't know how to respond. Any info on the manifests will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[WildCat]

I believe they were obtained through a FoI request.

At any rate, the Boston Globe obtained them a day or 2 after 9/11 and published the seat assignments of the hijackers.

[beachnut]

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/docs/

Are these docs the best link to the flight manifests which show hijacker names on the manifests? Someone is claiming they are less than reliable and I just don't know how to respond. Any info on the manifests will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Do not help the ignorant, let them wallow in their lies. The claim there were no terrorist on the planes is the best indication of low IQ available. It proves your truther has no facts or ability to find them.

You should get paid for helping the researched challenged truthers. Dylan makes money off of the not so cleaver ones, so should you.

Be sure to blow holes in their story when they present list of victims. It is hard for turther to use that brain they have to comprehend who are victims and who are terrorist.

Your list look pretty good at that site. Funny how truther sites have a lot of data to debunk truthers. (are some truthers good researchers but not so good with conclusions?)

[A-Train]

Are these docs the best link to the flight manifests which show hijacker names on the manifests? Someone is claiming they are less than reliable and I just don't know how to respond. Any info on the manifests will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


The real question is not whether the alleged manifests are reliable or not; the real questions are

1.) How do we know that a person who boarded the planes under a given name was really that person, and not someone else who had assumed the stolen identity of a completely innocent person?

2.) Even if we can establish that a certain person did indeed board the plane, where is the evidence that that particular person actually participated in the hijackings-- and was not simply a clueless patsy who had been manipulated onto the flight with the intention of framing him for the crime?

[gumboot]

1.) How do we know that a person who boarded the planes under a given name was really that person, and not someone else who had assumed the stolen identity of a completely innocent person?


A completely innocent person with ties to Al Qaeda, that made a martyr video with images of their targets behind them?

Right.





2.) Even if we can establish that a certain person did indeed board the plane, where is the evidence that that particular person actually participated in the hijackings-- and was not simply a clueless patsy who had been manipulated onto the flight with the intention of framing him for the crime?

Phone calls, CVR, process of elimination. And as per above. Confirmed links to Al Qaeda, martyr videos, etc.

-Gumboot

[beachnut]

The real question is not whether the alleged manifests are reliable or not; the real questions are

1.) How do we know that a person who boarded the planes under a given name was really that person, and not someone else who had assumed the stolen identity of a completely innocent person?

2.) Even if we can establish that a certain person did indeed board the plane, where is the evidence that that particular person actually participated in the hijackings-- and was not simply a clueless patsy who had been manipulated onto the flight with the intention of framing him for the crime?
The real question is when will you find evidence to support your questions being real questions? Your questions are wild speculation not supported in fact or evidence.

I will answer my question now. Never.

Asking real wild questions is easy when you never have to answer them. Nice try but facts are needed when you discuss 9/11, not wild questions.

[fsol]

The real question is not whether the alleged manifests are reliable or not; the real questions are

1.) How do we know that a person who boarded the planes under a given name was really that person, and not someone else who had assumed the stolen identity of a completely innocent person?

OMG!!!

2.) Even if we can establish that a certain person did indeed board the plane, where is the evidence that that particular person actually participated in the hijackings-- and was not simply a clueless patsy who had been manipulated onto the flight with the intention of framing him for the crime?OMG!!!!11111!!!oneoneone!!!!1111one!

[apathoid]

The real question is not whether the alleged manifests are reliable or not; the real questions are

1.) How do we know that a person who boarded the planes under a given name was really that person, and not someone else who had assumed the stolen identity of a completely innocent person?

2.) Even if we can establish that a certain person did indeed board the plane, where is the evidence that that particular person actually participated in the hijackings-- and was not simply a clueless patsy who had been manipulated onto the flight with the intention of framing him for the crime?

1. Okay, why havent any of the 19 innocent people come forward?

2. What Gumboot said. Somebody commited the hijackings, agree? And the evidence collected by the FBI was good enough to send the bench warming "20th Hijacker" to the Supermax in Florence...right?

If not the 19 named Al-Qaeda hijackers, then who? Any ideas?

[WildCat]

The real question
Still waiting for you to produce the "dozens" of manifests you claim exist A-Train... or will you man up and retract that claim?

[Thunder]

A-Train, do you not see how someone might find your "questions" kinda rediculous? On what basis should we question the true identity of those who boarded the plane...or whether the hijackers actually hijacked the aircraft? Operation Northwoods? Operation Gladio? This is the evidence that justifies your questions.

How do we know George Bush is really George Bush? How do we know you are really you and not a double posing as you? How do we know we are really here?

"Just asking questions". I know. But some questions..are just useless.

[A-Train]

Still waiting for you to produce the "dozens" of manifests you claim exist A-Train... or will you man up and retract that claim?

If you go to the 911research site linked in the first post, you will see fourteen manifests listed, and that's just for two flights. I realize that is not exactly dozens, but I think your harassment of me on this point has gone on long enough. Why don't you be man enough to drop it?

[A-Train]

A completely innocent person with ties to Al Qaeda, that made a martyr video with images of their targets behind them?



Hmm. If we don't really know if a given person boarded the flight, how do we know that person also made a martyr video? Incidentally, not everyone has the same blind faith in the pronouncements of government officials as you do, gumboot. Did you initially believe that Pat Tillman was killed by enemy fire?

Phone calls, CVR, process of elimination. And as per above. Confirmed links to Al Qaeda, martyr videos, etc.



I happen to consider myself an expert on the phone calls made from the flights. In fact, I seem to have most of them memorized by now. Tell me gumboot, which phone calls specifically implicate any of the alleged 19 Arab hijackers? I'm all ears.

[Thunder]

Please explain how the Pentagon lieing about Pat Tillman is somehow connected to hijackers not being on the planes.

Each lie must stand on its own. We know that the governmant lies...but evidence of one lie being a lie is in no way evidence of another lie. This only works in the mind of a conspiracy theorist who hates his governmant and who hates his country.

[apathoid]

If you go to the 911research site linked in the first post, you will see fourteen manifests listed, and that's just for two flights. I realize that is not exactly dozens, but I think your harassment of me on this point has gone on long enough.

No, you have just shown that his "harassment" is completely warranted. Lets take a closer look at the docs, shall we.

Each one of the full documents have thumbnails. Not counting the thumbnails, there are 3 manifest pages for AA11, 1 for UA 175, 2 for AA77 and 1 for UA93. AA11 and AA77s passenger manifest needed multiple pages, note the numbers next to the names as you go through the pages.....fairly simple, isn't it?

[alexg]

No, you have just shown that his "harassment" is completely warranted. Lets take a closer look at the docs, shall we.

Each one of the full documents have thumbnails. Not counting the thumnails, there are 3 manifest pages for AA11, 1 for UA 175, 2 for AA77 and 1 for UA93.
AA11 and AA77s passenger manifest needed multiple pages, note the numbers next to the names as you go through the pages.....fairly simple, isn't it?

You beat me too it. Multiple pages per flight and the redundant thumbnails. The exact amout of needed manifests are there. LOL

[WildCat]

If you go to the 911research site linked in the first post, you will see fourteen manifests listed, and that's just for two flights. I realize that is not exactly dozens, but I think your harassment of me on this point has gone on long enough. Why don't you be man enough to drop it?
So you're counting each page as a separate manifest? That's just ridiculous! Your own link shows only 1 manifest for each flight. Will you be retracting your claim now, or will you forge onward cloaked in your own ignorance?

What passes for research among the troofers never ceases to amaze me.

This is exactly why I have been "harassing" you for so long over this - in the end you were proved either woefully incompetent and made a false claim of "dozens" of manifests out of ignorance or you lied about it. Now we have the actual truth, don't we?

[A-Train]

This is exactly why I have been "harassing" you for so long over this - in the end you were proved either woefully incompetent and made a false claim of "dozens" of manifests out of ignorance or you lied about it. Now we have the actual truth, don't we?


Sounds to me like you're trying to divert attention from the subject at hand, which is the identity of the hijackers-- not how many manifests there are.

If you want to continue to harangue me about this insignificant detail, please start a new thread to do so. Most of the posters on this forum have the respect to debate me on the issues. You are the only one who continually tries to distract me by hammering away at one insignificant point.

Put a sock in it.

[WildCat]

Sounds to me like you're trying to divert attention from the subject at hand, which is the identity of the hijackers-- not how many manifests there are.
The identity of the hijackers has been confirmed by multiple sources - including the Saudi government. It would be quite a simple thing to produce them if, as you claim, the identities were stolen. Can you produce them A-Train?

If you want to continue to harangue me about this insignificant detail, please start a new thread to do so.
There is no longer a need to harangue you on this issue, you were proven wrong.

Most of the posters on this forum have the respect to debate me on the issues. You are the only one who continually tries to distract me by hammering away at one insignificant point.
That was an issue that you brought up yourself. If you make a claim on this forum, you will be expected to back it up. If that is too much for you, other forums abound on the internet. But don't come here crying about how mean old WildCat called you on the bull excrement you were spreading.

[The Silver Shadow]

To the CTer's: The government does not use Google!

[gumboot]

Hmm. If we don't really know if a given person boarded the flight, how do we know that person also made a martyr video? Incidentally, not everyone has the same blind faith in the pronouncements of government officials as you do, gumboot.



What a quaint notion! I know the hijackers produced martyr videos because I've seen them.

You're also ignoring the numerous phone calls. The recovered DNA. Personal items. Airport security videos. The long paper trail. The hijackers weren't exactly trying to hide their tracks.




I happen to consider myself an expert on the phone calls made from the flights. In fact, I seem to have most of them memorized by now. Tell me gumboot, which phone calls specifically implicate any of the alleged 19 Arab hijackers? I'm all ears.


They all identify the hijackers as Middle Eastern. Some of them identify them by their seat numbers. The hijackers were the only Arabs on the flights. They spoke Arabic (re: CVRs), all other passengers on the aircraft as per the boarding manifests have been accounted for.

If it is a case of stolen identity, 19 Islamic Terrorists stole the identities of men who, by coincidence, also happened to be Islamic Terrorists intending to hijack airliners and fly them into buildings. What are the odds?

-Gumboot

[T.A.M.]

I happen to consider myself an expert on the phone calls made from the flights. In fact, I seem to have most of them memorized by now. Tell me gumboot, which phone calls specifically implicate any of the alleged 19 Arab hijackers? I'm all ears.

So if I give you a copy of the Merck Manual, will that make you an expert in medicine if you read it from cover to cover?

you use the word expert much too loosely my friend. Listening to the calls a hundred times each doesnt make you an expert...just obsessed.

Now if you can prove you are an expert in linguistics, or the lot, than you might have a valid point in calling yourself an "expert".

However, if you are merely stating that YOU alone feel you are an expert on the phone calls, than I can say that I feel that I am an expert on the Star Wars Trilogies... Call me a STAR WARSologist.

TAM:)

[NBachmann]

So if I give you a copy of the Merck Manual, will that make you an expert in medicine if you read it from cover to cover?

you use the word expert much too loosely my friend. Listening to the calls a hundred times each doesnt make you an expert...just obsessed.

Now if you can prove you are an expert in linguistics, or the lot, than you might have a valid point in calling yourself an "expert".

However, if you are merely stating that YOU alone feel you are an expert on the phone calls, than I can say that I feel that I am an expert on the Star Wars Trilogies... Call me a STAR WARSologist.

TAM:)

You do not need to be an expert to know the calls were fake. "Mom this is Mark Bingham, you do believe me dont you?", Give me a break.

[Civilized Worm]

Strange that his MOTHER didn't know then!

You'd better have some solid evidence if you're going to mock the last memories these people have of their lost loved ones.

[Civilized Worm]

I happen to consider myself an expert on the phone calls made from the flights.


Yes but does anyone else consider you an expert? I consider myself a pilot but those meanies still won't let me fly! :mad:


Sounds to me like you're trying to divert attention from the subject at hand, which is the identity of the hijackers-- not how many manifests there are.

If you want to continue to harangue me about this insignificant detail, please start a new thread to do so. Most of the posters on this forum have the respect to debate me on the issues. You are the only one who continually tries to distract me by hammering away at one insignificant point.

Put a sock in it.


Dude, the thread is named "MANIFESTS", how is that not the subject at hand?

Ah, I see that the point has become "insignificant" now that you've been proved wrong. Funny, I would have thought that wether or not the 19 hijackers were on the plane would be very significant indeed.

[T.A.M.]

You do not need to be an expert to know the calls were fake. "Mom this is Mark Bingham, you do believe me dont you?", Give me a break.

Alice Hoglan's email is publicly available. I imagine, given your strong feelings that she is part of the cover up, that you have mailed her your opinion above...right? I didnt think so. It is easy to call someone a liar from the safety of your computer chair. She believed it was her son who called...why dont you.

As for the "expert" comment, i agree with your take on it, but A-Train is the one who called himself an "expert" in the phone calls. I was merely calling him out on it. If he is an expert in audio analysis or linguistics, through appropriate training, I will concede the point that he is an "expert' on the phone calls.

TAM:)

[apathoid]

You do not need to be an expert to know the calls were fake. "Mom this is Mark Bingham, you do believe me dont you?", Give me a break.

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2469636&postcount=143

Hoglan: I was staying with my brother Vaughan on the morning of September 11th, and, uh, the phone rang.

Bingham (reconstruction): Mom... Mom, this is Mark Bingham.

Hoglan: Once in a while he would say that. He would call up, and he was, he was a young businessman, and used to, used to introduce himself on phone as Mark Bingham, and he was trying to be, uh, strong, and level-headed, and, and strictly business. "Mom, this is Mark Bingham".

[Civilized Worm]

I don't think that's a good idea TAM, it's not unheard of for twoofers to harass the families of victims and the last thing they need is encouragement.

[Alt+F4]

You do not need to be an expert to know the calls were fake. "Mom this is Mark Bingham, you do believe me dont you?", Give me a break.

Sometimes if someone has a really good debunk I copy it. So here's the debunk of the above, sorry I forgot who the original JREF author is.

The "voice morphing technology" available (then and now) can't be done in anywhere near real-time, and its pretty much for prepared, scripted speeches, not live conversations.

Some of the callers were not even supposed to be on the doomed flights. So how could they manage it ("morphing" the voices, getting info about the families, ...) in just a few hours?

What the cter's fail to work into their whole "voice" morphing claim is that not everyone speaks the same. Ten minutes of "sampling" won't provide anyone with near enough information on how a person would pronounce certain words, or how they stress certain syllables, or have trouble with some consonant/vowel combinations.

And what happens if they person has an accent?

[NBachmann]

Alice Hoglan's email is publicly available. I imagine, given your strong feelings that she is part of the cover up, that you have mailed her your opinion above...right? I didnt think so. It is easy to call someone a liar from the safety of your computer chair. She believed it was her son who called...why dont you.

As for the "expert" comment, i agree with your take on it, but A-Train is the one who called himself an "expert" in the phone calls. I was merely calling him out on it. If he is an expert in audio analysis or linguistics, through appropriate training, I will concede the point that he is an "expert' on the phone calls.

TAM:)

Give me her email address and I will email her.

[Par]

The real question is not whether the alleged manifests are reliable or not; the real questions are

1.) How do we know that a person who boarded the planes under a given name was really that person, and not someone else who had assumed the stolen identity of a completely innocent person?

2.) Even if we can establish that a certain person did indeed board the plane, where is the evidence that that particular person actually participated in the hijackings-- and was not simply a clueless patsy who had been manipulated onto the flight with the intention of framing him for the crime?

A-Train is committing the argument from ignorance fallacy. He’s claiming that because we cannot absolutely positively prove that the hijackers weren’t innocent dupes, it’s reasonable (or even preferable) to believe that they were.

[T.A.M.]

I don't think that's a good idea TAM, it's not unheard of for twoofers to harass the families of victims and the last thing they need is encouragement.

I think this now qualifies you for Randi's million dollars.

As for the address, I didnt tell him to email here, I said I assumed he had, given that her address is publicly available, and given how strong his feelings were.

Me personally, I would not suggest anyone do so...I think it is vile.

As a result, even if I had the address, I would not give it to you.

I can tell you though, I have seen it, so I know it is PUBLICLY available.

TAM:)

[Civilized Worm]

I know you're not suggesting he do it but put the idea out. And now one of them wants to do it.


I think this now qualifies you for Randi's million dollars.


Eh?

[NBachmann]

I will find the address and send my concerns to her.

[T.A.M.]

Give me her email address and I will email her.

You were psychic...lol

As for the email, I cannot find it on goggle now, so it may have since been taken down by her...I am not sure.

I do recall seeing it...I have no reason to lie about such a thing.

TAM:)

[Dr Adequate]

If not the 19 named Al-Qaeda hijackers, then who? Any ideas? Kamikaze Republicans.

You can just imagine the scene, can't you?

---

Come in Bob, come in! Have we got a great asignment for you!

You have?

Yes, we want you to fly a plane into a building.

You want me to ...

To fly a plane into a building.

A ... a suicide mission?

A suicide mission.

Who's the enemy?

There is no enemy. The idea is to murder thousands of your fellow-citizens. Don't tell anyone, it's a secret.

And if I do this, I go to heaven and get seventy-two virgins, right?

No, you're thinking of Islam. I'm afraid that in our religion, you'd then spend eternity in Hell with little demons sticking firey pitchforks up your bottom.

Well ... I'm not sure ...

There's a free dental plan.

I'll do it!

[T.A.M.]

good for you Nbachmann.

I see where you are going here...playing it up now to try and make me feel bad...how nice of you.

If you are evil and vile enough to plague that woman with your "concerns", and my indirect reference to her email address is all it took to make you do so, after 5 years from the event, than I guess that is all I can do.

Ms. Hoglan, forgive me for placing such evil in this fellows head.

TAM:)

[apathoid]

I will find the address and send my concerns to her.



Did you not see my post above? She is already on record talking about the "Mom, this is Mark Bingham" canard. Now, please leave her alone...

[T.A.M.]

Apathoid...I'd just leave it. This guy is obviously a long standing truther...yet now, after 6 years, only with the alleged "epiphony" from a debunker, does this guy "realize" he can email her his "concerns". He is pulling my chain to make me feel bad for suggesting it...even indirectly.

besides, looking on google, it looks like it has been taken down, as I seen no link to it anymore.

TAM:)

[NBachmann]

Earlier I was a coward for not emailing her. Now I am evil for considering it?

[Civilized Worm]

You were psychic...lol

As for the email, I cannot find it on goggle now, so it may have since been taken down by her...I am not sure.

I do recall seeing it...I have no reason to lie about such a thing.

TAM:)


I believe you. She's probably taken it down for this very reason, poor woman.

[NBachmann]

TAM relax. I have no intention of emailing this poor woman. Hopefully you will think twice before rolling out the accusations of cowardice and the strawman argument that I accused her of being in on it.

[T.A.M.]

well you were accusing someone, whose story I believe, of either (a) being fooled by someone impersonating her son, or (b) being a part of the cover-up, so yes indirectly I was calling a little element of cowardice here...we see it so often in those espousing the "truth".

TAM:)

[Alt+F4]

I will find the address and send my concerns to her.

I don't know Alice Hoglan's email address but I do know George Papcun's. Dr. Papcun is the person who supposedly invented this "voice morphing technology" that the CTer's talk about.

As discussed in LC, here's a link to the original 1999 Washington Post story about his work at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.http://www.public-action.com/911/voice-simulation/index.html

I found his email address through an expert witness site: http://www.almexperts.com/ExpertWitness/experts_and_consultants/expert/5156404.html

He responded to my email and seemed to be a very nice person:

Even now, let alone back in 2001, no method exists that would allow real-time morphing as precise and as flexible as would have been required to simulate the telephone calls from the passengers and crew of the doomed flights.

[T.A.M.]

I don't know Alice Hoglan's email address but I do know George Papcun's. Dr. Papcun is the person who supposedly invented this "voice morphing technology" that the CTer's talk about.

As discussed in LC, here's a link to the original 1999 Washington Post story about his work at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.http://www.public-action.com/911/voice-simulation/index.html

I found his email address through an expert witness site: http://www.almexperts.com/ExpertWitness/experts_and_consultants/expert/5156404.html

He responded to my email and seemed to be a very nice person:




Nice. You should let Doc know you have this, and MarkyX et al, so for the next debunking films, they might include this...provided he would be ok with quoting him...of course.

TAM:)

[Alt+F4]

Nice. You should let Doc know you have this, and MarkyX et al, so for the next debunking films, they might include this...provided he would be ok with quoting him...of course.

TAM:)

He told me he had never heard of Loose Change or that CTers were "using" his research but told me he would look into it, this was in December. We only exchanged a few emails.

He was very pleasant and forthcoming. If Doc or MarkyX contacted him I'm pretty certain he would be ok with being quoted in more length then my snip. He's retired from Los Alamos now but still continuing his research.

[Civilized Worm]

Amazing that such a simple thing as e-mail the guy never occured to any twoofers.

[NBachmann]

Amazing that such a simple thing as e-mail the guy never occured to any twoofers.

What makes you so quick to believe him? He works for a government laboratory. Bill Clinton said he didn't have sexual relations with Monica, doesn;t make it true.

[Alt+F4]

What makes you so quick to believe him? He works for a government laboratory. Bill Clinton said he didn't have sexual relations with Monica, doesn;t make it true.

So everyone who works for the federal government is a liar?

[Par]

What makes you so quick to believe him? He works for a government laboratory. Bill Clinton said he didn't have sexual relations with Monica, doesn;t make it true.


So, what evidence would convince you that the phone-calls were genuine?

[NBachmann]

So everyone who works for the federal government is a liar?

Did I say that? No.

You apply skepticism to conspiracy claims but a man working at a government laboratory is believed instantly. You know for sure he is telling the truth?

[WildCat]

Did I say that? No.

You apply skepticism to conspiracy claims but a man working at a government laboratory is believed instantly. You know for sure he is telling the truth?
Would you like to start listing the lies in the NIST report? Then I'll list the lies of the "truth" movement... whose list will be longer I wonder? :rolleyes:

[NBachmann]

Would you like to start listing the lies in the NIST report? Then I'll list the lies of the "truth" movement... whose list will be longer I wonder? :rolleyes:

Where did I say the NIST report contained lies?

Please stay on topic.

[Par]

NBachmann: So, what evidence would convince you that the phone-calls were genuine?

[Alt+F4]

Did I say that? No.

You apply skepticism to conspiracy claims but a man working at a government laboratory is believed instantly. You know for sure he is telling the truth?

Dr. Papcun told me the technology doesn't exist. Why would he lie?

Logically it makes sense that this technology doesn't exist for live conversations. How could the perpetrators possibly have known information of a personal nature might be discussed?

[Civilized Worm]

What makes you so quick to believe him? He works for a government laboratory. Bill Clinton said he didn't have sexual relations with Monica, doesn;t make it true.


So the Impossibly Vast Conspiracy gets impossibly vaster!*

What if we were to contact more people who worked on the technology? Do you think they were all in on it? That they knew what it was going to be used for and had no problem with it? And none of them have had an attack of conscience since?




*I know it's "more vast" but that sounded better.

[Dr Adequate]

So, the conspiracy gains another member. George Papcun, alumnus of the UCLA phonetics group, works for the Los Alamos National Laboratory, inventor, complicit in mass murder.

Why does he have to be in the conspiracy?

So that a team of mimics can be in the conspiracy.

And what are the team of mimics for?

To explain why the phone calls weren't genuine.

And why can't the phone calls be genuine?

'Cos if they aren't, then that proves the Official Story wrong, hooray!

And the evidence that they aren't genuine?

Non-existent, but what the hey. They could have been faked, if we imagine technology for the very existence of which we have no evidence.

And why did the conspirators go to all this trouble?

Beats the heck out of me.

Hey, I'm just asking questions.

[Björn Toulouse]

Apathoid...I'd just leave it. This guy is obviously a long standing truther...



Good call.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=81438


Second time today.


http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=81392

[Totovader]

Good call.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=81438


Second time today.


http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=81392

That's just a little nutty- I mean, he must be desperate for some attention if he has to have 2 socks in one day.

When conspiracists get bored- there's always trouble...

[T.A.M.]

He has to make up for the lack of other truthers over here. You gotta admit, without his socks, the JREF CT subforum would not have alot of debate at present...lol

TAM:)

[The Doc]

I think one conspiracy theorist comes here to post for every 4 P'doh socks that do, to be honest.

[Slayhamlet]

Now I can understand why a lot of you often assume new troofer members are socks. If you accused every one of them you'd be right 50% of them time.

[LashL]

That's just a little nutty- I mean, he must be desperate for some attention if he has to have 2 socks in one day.

When conspiracists get bored- there's always trouble...

P'doh puts an awful lot of time and energy into creating and maintaining numerous sockpuppets on a continuous basis. It strikes me that if he would put even 1/1000th of that time and energy into educating himself about facts, evidence and reality, he probably wouldn't be such a sad, lonely person reduced to seeking negative attention by way of his prodigious sockpuppetry.

It would actaully be sad if he wasn't such an offensive little creep. C'est la vie.

[Minadin]

Now I can understand why a lot of you often assume new troofer members are socks. If you accused every one of them you'd be right 50% of them time.

And we'd still have a better track record than Sylvia Browne!

[Slayhamlet]

And we'd still have a better track record than Sylvia Browne!

I see this woman's name mentioned all over, even in sig lines, and I still have no idea who the heck she is. Some psychic I presume. What's everybody's obsession with her about?

[JimBenArm]

I see this woman's name mentioned all over, even in sig lines, and I still have no idea who the heck she is. Some psychic I presume. What's everybody's obsession with her about?
She is a psychic who appears on Montel Williams occasionally. She agreed to take Randi's challenge some time back, but has never followed through on that. If you go to the JREF main page, you'll see a counter that shows how long it's been since she agreed to be tested.

[Slayhamlet]

She is a psychic who appears on Montel Williams occasionally. She agreed to take Randi's challenge some time back, but has never followed through on that. If you go to the JREF main page, you'll see a counter that shows how long it's been since she agreed to be tested.

Okay, that makes sense. I was wondering what made her so different from all the thousands of other psychics out there, i.e. what's so exceptional about her to garner the amount of attention that she does from here. I guess not many of them take the challenge, which isn't surprising.