More on Jessica Lynch

[Roadtoad]

Got this article from a friend.

Three old soldiers say the hoopla over Pfc. Jessica Lynch has drowned out a darker story - that her company commander foolishly put Lynch and her comrades in harm's way.

Just as bad, the three say, is the Army's official report on what happened on March 23 when Lynch's 507th Maintenance Company ran into a firefight in the Iraqi city of Nasiriyah.

The report calls the clash "a tragedy" and says the 507th's soldiers "fought hard. ... Every soldier performed honorably, and each did his or her duty."

That statement raises the eyebrows of retired artillery Col. Jerry Morelock of Fulton, Mo., now the director of Westminster College's Churchill Memorial.

In an e-mail interview, Morelock questioned whether the company commander had acted honorably and done his duty. That commander was Capt. Troy King. Morelock noted that King had:

Misread maps all along his convoy's routes.

Gotten his soldiers in one piece through a hostile city - and then turned around and driven back through it. (At that point, Morelock says, "the Iraqis found the soft targets presented to them by Capt. King's incompetence too tempting to pass up.")

Refused to jettison his unit's trailers, even when they slowed what should have been a hasty retreat.

Apparently abandoned some of his soldiers on the battlefield.

"Lacked competence"

Tom Kuypers of St. Charles is a retired lieutenant colonel of infantry. In an e-mail interview, he offered a stark judgment: "Capt. King will have to live with the burden that he failed to accomplish his mission. He failed his troops as a commander. He lacked competence as an officer. ... Commanders never abandon their troops in battle."

Another retired lieutenant colonel of infantry, Ed Kennedy of Leavenworth, Kan., shared that view. By e-mail, he quoted a maxim heard often in the Army: "A commander is responsible for everything his unit does - or fails to do."

All three veterans were stunned by the report's repeated mention of weapons jamming or malfunctioning. All three called the breakdowns a classic symptom of bad leadership.

Kuypers termed the jamming "a giveaway for lax discipline and the unit's lack of attention to detail." Kennedy said, "Dirty rifles are a sign of indiscipline, no matter how you cut it."

Kennedy blamed what he called "a major cultural divide between the combat arms and those of support soldiers. It's almost as if we're in different armies. And the 507th is part of this non-combat arms culture. There's a lot of tough talk but an underlying softness. They take pride in living in tents or trucks and not being fighters."

Kennedy added, "I think the pervasive number of females has made this even worse in the last 25 years."

"Iraqis probably saved her"

But Kuyper said the 507th had gotten little in the way of help from the links above it in the chain of command. Among other things, he said, nobody provided an airborne escort, even though "helicopters routinely 'cover' convoys."

Even Kennedy said: "The leaders were all suffering from sleep deprivation and exhaustion. This added to the problem. ... Even a good rest plan can't fix this problem, and I empathize with their physical condition. I've been there. But battle drills that are rehearsed counter the effects of sleep deprivation."

King's home station is Fort Bliss, Texas. A spokeswoman there, Maj. Catie Morelle-Oliveira, said King had decided against granting interviews but was preparing a written statement.

Morelock scoffed at the press's lionization of Pfc. Lynch. In the official report, Morelock said, Lynch "comes across as just some poor young kid who got smashed up in a vehicle accident. In all likelihood, the Iraqis probably saved her life. Certainly they did more to ensure her immediate survival than Capt. King did."

Morelock's final words targeted the Army itself: "To refer to this combat action as 'a tragedy' - an 'event' in which the convoy seemingly just happened to find itself - is nonsense. Dismissing the whole thing by claiming that 'all served nobly' and then throwing medals at them is an insult to the soldiers who died and ought to be an embarrassment to the survivors."

The Link:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/St.+Louis+City+/+County/A8277FE20B360F5086256D7D000D8079?OpenDocument&Headline=Hyped+story+of+Lynch's+capture+covers+off icer's+incompetence,+vets+say&highlight=2%2CJessica%2CLynch[/url]

The more I read about what the government does, the more I simply want to vomit.

[Grammatron]

That is a sad story. I certainly hope that commander ends up discharged or at least at some desk office where he can't do any more harm.

[Malachi151]

Yes, the Iraqis that saved her should have been given medals.

[Mr Manifesto]

While it is my belief that the US military isn't the best in the world, I still have a few questions.

Don't automatic weapons have a tendency to jam a lot anyway? Can anyone with experience in the field or some other source provide info on this? Does the incidence of jamming weapons really mean poor discipline?

Are these retired officers giving a genuine point of view, or are they merely back-seat driving? The anti-war movement in Australia was discredited to a point by a bunch of retired soldiers who said the major operations were going to last months if not years (as opposed to the guerrilla war that's going on now). Are there any other military commentators who can give an insight on this?

Where is the report that is the basis of Morelock's comments? Is it available anywhere on the net, preferably without Morelock's editorial?

I'd love it to be true, but this is a skeptics' board, and one mustn't accept info unconsciously.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
Don't automatic weapons have a tendency to jam a lot anyway? Can anyone with experience in the field or some other source provide info on this? Does the incidence of jamming weapons really mean poor discipline?


Yes, automatic weapons can and do 'jam' particularly in desert conditions where sand gets into the working parts.

However, good battle discipline means that weapons are cleaned regularly- on TA weekends, we do quickie 'battle cleans' whenever we have some slack time. Also, effective drills mean you should be able to clear most stoppages quickly enough "slick drills, quick kills!" as the saying goes.

Some weapons like the A1 version of the magnificent SA-80 rifle that British troops were stuck with in GW1 have terminal faults like a brittle firing pin and when that breaks, you are stuffed. However, the M16 is a very reliable weapon- almost as reliable as the AK47. This is why most special forces (including the SAS) use the M16 as a combat rifle in preference to the newer and fancier rifles on the market.

Although I havent used one myself, I'd say troops that cant get an excellent weapon like the M16 to work properly should be sent back to boot-camp. They shouldnt be anywhere near a combat zone.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Don't automatic weapons have a tendency to jam a lot anyway? Can anyone with experience in the field or some other source provide info on this? Does the incidence of jamming weapons really mean poor discipline?



It depends on the weapon you are talking about. The late model M16s used by the US are very reliable rifles. If kept clean and lubricated stoppages are very very rare. Full of dust and crud and/or corrosion they are (like any gas operated self loader) prone to fail. Any soldier carrying a dirty rifle is simply a dangerous liability and should be kicked in the arse. Soldiers who think thier pimary role is not the use of thier rifle are often less likely to maintain thier rifle properly. Constant weapons inspections and test firing/maintenance are a normal part of an infantry units routine. If its not being done the people responsible should be removed and someone else appointed that can ensure this basic task is completed. They may have been Motor Mechanics but they were wearing uniforms and carrying rifles. All soldiers primary qualification is to be a rifleman...If you can fix trucks, all well and good....But they are all supposed to be fighting soldiers first and foremost.

You cannot expect 2nd line troops to perform like Line Infantry in contact with an enemy.... but you can (should) expect (demand) that they keep thier weapons in top order.

[Malachi151]

Yeah, just on OT comment, the AK47 is still essentially the most reliable assault rifle in the world, they are essentially indestrutable and never jam, which is why people in 3rd world countries love them.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Malachi151
Yeah, just on OT comment, the AK47 is still essentially the most reliable assault rifle in the world, they are essentially indestrutable and never jam, which is why people in 3rd world countries love them.

Also, they are cheap and plentiful.

[LW]

Originally posted by Malachi151
Yeah, just on OT comment, the AK47 is still essentially the most reliable assault rifle in the world, they are essentially indestrutable and never jam

However, you don't need much sand to jam an AK-47 clip, at least not if the spring in it is getting old.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by LW


However, you don't need much sand to jam an AK-47 clip, at least not if the spring in it is getting old.

I wouldn't recommend sand as a lubricant for any fire-arm..

[LW]

Originally posted by Diogenes


I wouldn't recommend sand as a lubricant for any fire-arm..

When I was in army, I once saw a guy to drop his RK-62 (Finnish AK-47 clone) into a pile of sand during an exercise. He shook the sand out and continued firing. However, when I managed to drop my clip onto a similar pile, I had to completely disassemble and clean it before it agreed to give more than one bullet out.

[American]

When Scott O'Grady got his F16 shot down, the press didn't report what some people heard-- that he was known to be a lackluster pilot, and there had always been reservations about his flying skills.


Hindsight's 20-20.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by LW


When I was in army, I once saw a guy to drop his RK-62 (Finnish AK-47 clone) into a pile of sand during an exercise. He shook the sand out and continued firing. However, when I managed to drop my clip onto a similar pile, I had to completely disassemble and clean it before it agreed to give more than one bullet out.

That's Sod's Law for you.

[Tmy]

Gun jam?? I thought Lynch never even fired her gun.
THe story changes allteh time. WHo the hell knows what happend. One thing that is steady is the whole "wrong turn" issue. Somebody did f-up somewhere.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Tmy
Gun jam?? I thought Lynch never even fired her gun.
THe story changes allteh time. WHo the hell knows what happend. One thing that is steady is the whole "wrong turn" issue. Somebody did f-up somewhere.

I think the report says that a lot of guns jammed- not neccessarily Lynch's.

BTW- does anyone know how to spell 'neccessary'? Or a good on-line dictionary that shows you how to spell words, rather than give you the definition of words you already know how to spell?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto




BTW- does anyone know how to spell 'neccessary'? Or a good on-line dictionary that shows you how to spell words, rather than give you the definition of words you already know how to spell? Necessary

My favorite:

Webster (http://www.m-w.com/)

If you spell wrong, it will give you several suggestions...

[richardm]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto

BTW- does anyone know how to spell 'neccessary'?

Never Eat Chocolate, Eat Salad Sandwiches And Remain Young

:D

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by richardm


Never Eat Chocolate, Eat Salad Sandwiches And Remain Young

:D

:clap:Bravo. Tres bien mnémonique.:clap:

Thanks for the Webster link, too Diogenes!

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by richardm


Never Eat Chocolate, Eat Salad Sandwiches And Remain Young

:D


I just remember that " with two ' C's in necessary, it would be pronounced ' NECK- sa - sary '.. :D

[Tricky]

This just in. (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2207852)
Jessica is pretty P.O.'d about the way she was used as a propaganda tool. Nobody is surprised anymore that the Pentagon manipulated her and the story, but I thought Lynch, the good soldier, would not be among those who pointed this out. I was wrong.
"They used me as a way to symbolize all this stuff," she said in an excerpt from the interview, posted Friday on the network's Web site.

"It hurt in a way that people would make up stories that they had no truth about," she said.

She also is upset at the way that her story got turned into glurge.
I'm not about to take credit for something I didn't do," she said.

"I did not shoot, not a round, nothing ... I went down praying to my knees. And that's the last I remember."

This all reminds me of the time Ronald Reagan tried to give the Congressional Medal of Honor to a fictional character he read about in Reader's Digest.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by Tricky
This all reminds me of the time Ronald Reagan tried to give the Congressional Medal of Honor to a fictional character he read about in Reader's Digest.

LOL.

Well, I'm glad to see that she is being honest about it. I always wondered why people kept blaming her for the story, I mean she could not even talk, its not like it was her fault.

Now that she does have her time in the press I'm glad she is being honest.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Tricky

She also is upset at the way that her story got turned into glurge.



Maybe she doesnt realize this, but the military didnt exploit as badly as the press did. She was the media sweetheart of all the major TV news outlets and they reported whatever unconfirmed bits of data they could find on her. And why did they cover her story to the point of absurdity? For the same reason they do the Kobe Bryant case, good ratings.

The military itself was pretty mum about her except for showing the video of her rescue.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by corplinx


Maybe she doesnt realize this, but the military didnt exploit as badly as the press did. She was the media sweetheart of all the major TV news outlets and they reported whatever unconfirmed bits of data they could find on her. And why did they cover her story to the point of absurdity? For the same reason they do the Kobe Bryant case, good ratings.

The military itself was pretty mum about her except for showing the video of her rescue.

Don't be a fool. The military is who decided to video tape the "rescue" and have the welcome home cerimony, etc, etc. Actually it was probably an executive decision.

The State/Corporations/Church are all one single unitied fascism entity in America. The media serves the state serves the church serves the state serves the media.

Pretty obvious.

[Tricky]

No doubt the media seized the story and made Lynch their darling, but I don't think it was the media who planted all those bogus stories. And they could have been cleared up if the military had wanted the real story to be heard, but they never bothered to correct the lies, which is almost as bad as telling the lies.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Malachi151


Don't be a fool.

The State/Corporations/Church are all one single unitied fascism entity in America. The media serves the state serves the church serves the state serves the media.

Pretty obvious.

I once had hope for you. I guess you are like Jedi Knight, an uncurable kook. At least Jedi was somewhat entertaining.

Guys, I think malachi will go away if we all just put him ignore. I'm going first, feel free to follow.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by corplinx


Maybe she doesnt realize this, but the military didnt exploit as badly as the press did. She was the media sweetheart of all the major TV news outlets and they reported whatever unconfirmed bits of data they could find on her. And why did they cover her story to the point of absurdity? For the same reason they do the Kobe Bryant case, good ratings.

The military itself was pretty mum about her except for showing the video of her rescue.

From Washington Post 3 April 2003:

'She Was Fighting to the Death'
Details Emerging of W. Va. Soldier's Capture and Rescue

Pfc. Jessica Lynch, rescued Tuesday from an Iraqi hospital, fought fiercely and shot several enemy soldiers after Iraqi forces ambushed the Army's 507th Ordnance Maintenance Company, firing her weapon until she ran out of ammunition, U.S. officials said yesterday. Lynch, a 19-year-old supply clerk, continued firing at the Iraqis even after she sustained multiple gunshot wounds and watched several other soldiers in her unit die around her in fighting March 23, one official said.

You need to subscribe to see the rest of the article. Was this the media beating up the story? Looks like someone was exploiting the story more than the media was. Who wouldn't jump on the story of a brave young rambette firing on the enemy while wounded.

You either have a bad memory or you like to indulge in revisionism. Considering the overall quality of your posts, I'll go for the lousy memory.

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by Tricky

This all reminds me of the time Ronald Reagan tried to give the Congressional Medal of Honor to a fictional character he read about in Reader's Digest.

Technically, what he did was relate an anecdote of a fictional "Medal of Honor recipient" to a gathering of real live ones. My late uncle broke the story! :D