Christian Bookstores - I need the inside scoop!

[Wheezebucket]

Ok, so I'm going to be applying at a nearby Christian Bookstore for a job. My reasons are varied, but one of them happens to be money. This, of course, will require me to pretend to be a Christian. That's not the problem, I've got my **** prepared I think, but I'm nervous that there'll be some kind of...I don't know, really obvious piece of information or something that I'll get stumped on - caught off guard. Something I overlooked in the rush. What kind of, how should I phrase it...'technical' religious questions do you think I should have a snap answer for (exlcuding any sort of deep theological/philisophical stuff)? Hours logged at church? Age of -insert obscure event here-?

Also, does anyone have any kind of experience with any of these Christian bookstores? If so, share away. Anything to add to my arsenal.

I'm fairly confident I've got most of it covered already, between my friends and I, but I thought I'd ask the Randi folk to weigh in just to be safe!

[SezMe]

If you can remember it's "Gee-zuz", not "Hey-sus" and you'll be fine.

[TragicMonkey]

Try to not cringe when people say things that ought to embarrass themselves, and try not to grin when the devoutly Christian are actually espousing pagan beliefs. You'll find that a lot in Christian bookstores--people seem to want to worship angels these days. Between angels, saints, demons, djinns, and the devil, it looks to me like religion naturally inclines towards the polytheistic. But don't tell them that! They don't like hearing it.

[H3LL]

All the larger bibles need to be kept warm with small candles or the print will fade away.

I hope this helps.

.

[tkingdoll]

Well, it seems that everyone has their price :D

Won't you find it weird to be promoting religion to customers? I would really struggle to sell a coloring book saying the earth was created 6000 years ago to an earnest little kid.

[Apathia]

About a year ago, I made a purchase from a small Christian bookstore and the shopkeep gave me a ministerial discount without asking. (for some perverse reason, people frequently mistake me for some kind of religious professional. Well, that was what I was going to be once upon a long time ago, but I ditched my "calling.")

I corrected her mistake. (The Christian thing to do? No wonder I reek of piety.)

[Malachi151]

I can't even enter a Christian bookstore. There is no way I could work for one.

[ChristineR]

What church do you go to? You know there are many different kinds of Christians. A "Christian bookstore" sells many books that claim Catholics are all going to hell. A "Catholic bookstore" will not sell that sort of book.

I think the main trick is learning what sorts of books they sell and how they arrange them. Like you need to put Dembski in "Science."

[RenaissanceBiker]

I hope you make enough money to compensate for your loss of dignity and pride. I don't know your situation, but it must be pretty bad. Couldn't you just sell drugs or something?

[Tanstaafl]

If you've prepared at all, you probably already know more Christian theology than the average Christian knows.

You should be fine.

[Marquis de Carabas]

When you drop one of those heavy family-type Bibles on your foot, and yell out "Jesus Christ!" remember to follow it up with a quick "Thank you for guiding my steps with the light of your holy Word. Amen."

If you say "Jesus F:Dking Christ" I can't help you.

[CynicalSkeptic]

Make sure you refuse to work on Sunday (or Saturday depending on which flavour of Christian you're pretending to be).

[Solus]

What are they paying you for this dream job? You must REALLY need money to do something like that.

I would rather get a job as one of those sign holders on street corner then work in a christian bookstore. Working at the local mcdonalds as a janitor would be a better job.

[Cleon]

Um...Are you sure there isn't a Barnes & Noble or Borders around or something? They're usually hiring, the pay is usually better, and you don't have to lie your way through the job interview. :(

I'd have some suggestions, but really...I just don't think it's right.

May I suggest trying for the honest approach? Technically, asking about your personal beliefs is illegal (Equal Opportunity laws), but it is a Christian store, so I imagine they'll get away with it. (There's also a loophole if they're owned by a religious organization, I'm sure.)

But if they do ask, tell them that while you don't share their beliefs, you respect those who believe. (You might want to stay away from the word "atheist," though--just say you're not religious or something.) Tell them that you're hardworking, polite, friendly, and the important thing is that you do a good job.

That sort of honesty will be better for both you and the store owner/manager in the long run, IMO. He won't fire you later once he discovers (and he will discover) that you're a blasphemous heathen who lied to get the job.

[RenaissanceBiker]

I was in a Barnes and Nobel last week and noticed the large number of SB books in the Woo section. I decided that before my next visit I would make some little slips of paper with www.stopsylviabrowne.com (http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com) and www.randi.org (http://www.randi.org) on them. Then I could slip them into the books near the front to alert the purchasing victim. Just a little civil disobediance.

[ponderingturtle]

I was in a Barnes and Nobel last week and noticed the large number of SB books in the Woo section. I decided that before my next visit I would make some little slips of paper with www.stopsylviabrowne.com (http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com) and www.randi.org (http://www.randi.org) on them. Then I could slip them into the books near the front to alert the purchasing victim. Just a little civil disobediance.

Hmm, I have thought about leaving bible passages with some of the more interesting and less quoted parts of the bible around, but doing it in the religion section of a book store I had not thought of.

[ksbluesfan]

If you need money that badly, couldn't you sell your soul on ebay instead?

Christians seem to spend more time talking about the latest book by some spiritual leader than the Bible. Depending on the slant of the bookstore, certian authors are favored over others. Kenneth Copeland might be hot this week, and Billy Graham next week. Unless it's a Catholic bookstore, the latest book from the Pope won't be very popular.

[Wheezebucket]

Well, it seems that everyone has their price :D

Won't you find it weird to be promoting religion to customers? I would really struggle to sell a coloring book saying the earth was created 6000 years ago to an earnest little kid.

Well the money is really only part of it. I also kind of like the idea of playing a Christian, seeing how long I can get away with it. I mean, if that parent and kid were planning on getting that book, they were gonna get it whether I worked there or not. And I'll be able to play around in other ways while i'm there - peppering the occasional skeptic literature around anonymously, creating holy water stains and attributing them to deities, etc.

In other words, I'll find ways to vent my frustrations (without blowing my cover, hopefully). I'll probably blog about it too to help sell my comic.

Of course, all this hinges on me actually getting hired, so we'll see what happens. I start the rounds today!

[Wheezebucket]

I was in a Barnes and Nobel last week and noticed the large number of SB books in the Woo section. I decided that before my next visit I would make some little slips of paper with www.stopsylviabrowne.com (http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com) and www.randi.org (http://www.randi.org) on them. Then I could slip them into the books near the front to alert the purchasing victim. Just a little civil disobediance.

This is a good idea!

[Wheezebucket]

I hope you make enough money to compensate for your loss of dignity and pride. I don't know your situation, but it must be pretty bad. Couldn't you just sell drugs or something?

Well if I sold my drugs I wouldn't be able to do them, so no thank you. And my dignity and pride will make out just great, I'm sure.

[Wheezebucket]

Um...Are you sure there isn't a Barnes & Noble or Borders around or something? They're usually hiring, the pay is usually better, and you don't have to lie your way through the job interview. :(

I'd have some suggestions, but really...I just don't think it's right.

May I suggest trying for the honest approach? Technically, asking about your personal beliefs is illegal (Equal Opportunity laws), but it is a Christian store, so I imagine they'll get away with it. (There's also a loophole if they're owned by a religious organization, I'm sure.)

But if they do ask, tell them that while you don't share their beliefs, you respect those who believe. (You might want to stay away from the word "atheist," though--just say you're not religious or something.) Tell them that you're hardworking, polite, friendly, and the important thing is that you do a good job.

That sort of honesty will be better for both you and the store owner/manager in the long run, IMO. He won't fire you later once he discovers (and he will discover) that you're a blasphemous heathen who lied to get the job.

That would defeat the entire purpose of my applying there in the first place. Money is only one piece of the pie. My pretending to be a Christian is another. I'll be fired eventually, I'm sure, but the trick is to see how long I can go and what I can get away with before it happens.

[lister]

What kind of, how should I phrase it...'technical' religious questions do you think I should have a snap answer for (exlcuding any sort of deep theological/philisophical stuff)? Hours logged at church? Age of -insert obscure event here-?
When were you "born again"? I'd have a fairly recent date so you can still be "learning". A great excuse to ask lots of awkward questions too.

I'd probably have some stock story about how your life has turned around since you found jebus too.

Also, does anyone have any kind of experience with any of these Christian bookstores? If so, share away. Anything to add to my arsenal.
Only that I went into one the other week to get a birthday present that my mother had asked for. There was a pile of mouse mats for sale on the counter with a picture of a chimp and the words "You may be a monkey's uncle, but I'm not!". If you can bite your tongue long enough to get through the first day you're a better man than me!

[Miss Anthrope]

Well the money is really only part of it. I also kind of like the idea of playing a Christian, seeing how long I can get away with it. I mean, if that parent and kid were planning on getting that book, they were gonna get it whether I worked there or not. And I'll be able to play around in other ways while i'm there - peppering the occasional skeptic literature around anonymously, creating holy water stains and attributing them to deities, etc.

In other words, I'll find ways to vent my frustrations (without blowing my cover, hopefully). I'll probably blog about it too to help sell my comic.

Of course, all this hinges on me actually getting hired, so we'll see what happens. I start the rounds today!

Guerilla Skepticism. Love it.

[Hokulele]

Word of advice, do not browse this forum while at work.

[Solus]

That would defeat the entire purpose of my applying there in the first place. Money is only one piece of the pie. My pretending to be a Christian is another. I'll be fired eventually, I'm sure, but the trick is to see how long I can go and what I can get away with before it happens.

If I tried the same thing I would be risking my own sanity (literally). Let us know how long you hold out, if you get the job.

[Marquis de Carabas]

When were you "born again"? I'd have a fairly recent date so you can still be "learning". A great excuse to ask lots of awkward questions too.
I disagree. The best background story is that you were saved at a young age, but fell away from the church during your rebellious teenage years. Then you need to construct a story of struggling with drug addiction or some other horrendous sin (but not homosexuality!) and how you finally came back to the Lord and turned your life around for the better, and you're just taking it day by day.

This kind of story will almost certainly get you some hot Christian tail.

ETA: The reasoning: it has all the things your young devoted Christchick just loves. It shows that you are a little bit vulnerable, a little bit dangerous, and that you love Jebus. You can prolly get some spank to "help you along" in your walk with the Lord. Then it's only a matter of time.

[wahrheit]

Word of advice, do not browse this forum while at work.

You know from experience?

[lister]

The reasoning: it has all the things your young devoted Christchick just loves
You are, of course, correct. When I think back to all the "inspirational" visiting speakers we had at our church, they all had lives of filth and depravity, followed by good works to rival mother Teresa. :D

[ponderingturtle]

You are, of course, correct. When I think back to all the "inspirational" visiting speakers we had at our church, they all had lives of filth and depravity, followed by good works to rival mother Teresa. :D

Well the second is not saying all that much. I guess that depends on how good you concider using funds solicited for hospiltals in india, to build convents in america.

[tkingdoll]

Well the money is really only part of it. I also kind of like the idea of playing a Christian, seeing how long I can get away with it. I mean, if that parent and kid were planning on getting that book, they were gonna get it whether I worked there or not. And I'll be able to play around in other ways while i'm there - peppering the occasional skeptic literature around anonymously, creating holy water stains and attributing them to deities, etc.

In other words, I'll find ways to vent my frustrations (without blowing my cover, hopefully). I'll probably blog about it too to help sell my comic.

Of course, all this hinges on me actually getting hired, so we'll see what happens. I start the rounds today!

Worth keeping a diary then, or an anonymous blog.

[Hokulele]

You know from experience?

Let's just say that it resulted in an extended discussion.

(It wasn't at a Christian bookstore, but it did involve a Christian associate.)

[ChristineR]

You can always go for the "I was raised an atheist and became a real screw-up but now I'm Christian" line. If you try this, it is important to remember that the story is almost never true. By "atheist" you mean "theist who though church wasn't important to his spiritual being." Now you have seen the light.

Your church is very important. Some of these people channel all their social lives through the church. They work out in the church gym, buy their Christmas presents at the church fundraiser, etc. That will be very hard to fake because sooner or later you will cross paths with a real churchgoer.

Don't claim to be a reformed gay unless you want other reformed gay men to hit on you. It WILL happen, that's practically a 100% guaranteed sure thing.

[Tanstaafl]

But... but... they're not gay any more!

They only hire the gay prostitute because he has the best deal on crystal meth.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Pretty much avoid any deviant sexual behavior in your background, no matter how reformed you claim to be. And deviant here means anything besides vaginal intercourse. (Of course, they're officially against this, too, if you weren't married, but owning up to it is not as icky as being gay or into S&M.)

The best background is probably drugs, as I mentioned before, but don't overlook the powerful allure of a reformed cultist, particularly a satanic cultist. (Avoid mentioning participation in sacrifices, particularly human, especially babies. If you cannot restrain yourself from a sacrifice, make sure it's not a cute animal. Go for a possum or something.) You could even tell them you were a high priest. They still believe Warnke, after all. A lot of Christians are absolutely fascinated by the occult. They hate it, but they can't look away. So having that "in your past" will be an instant hook. Throw in a bit about a vision of an angel leading you back to God and you're in.

[temporalillusion]

Well I guess I'm in the minority here, but I think this scam says more negative things about you and your values than it will say about the Christian book store and its patrons.

Other than money, what could you ever hope to accomplish? Other than demonstrating that you are willing to sell out (assuming they were there in the first place) your respect for other people and your integrity. You'll be selling people books on stuff they already believe, not helping them break out of their beliefs.

You'll be adding evidence to their claim that without religion people do not act morally IMO.

[Wheezebucket]

Well I guess I'm in the minority here, but I think this scam says more negative things about you and your values than it will say about the Christian book store and its patrons.

Other than money, what could you ever hope to accomplish? Other than demonstrating that you are willing to sell out (assuming they were there in the first place) your respect for other people and your integrity. You'll be selling people books on stuff they already believe, not helping them break out of their beliefs.

You'll be adding evidence to their claim that without religion people do not act morally IMO.

Well I wasn't aware I needed some kind of 'higher' goal. What do I hope to accomplish besides a well earned paycheck? I dunno, some entertainment, something to write about, a new experience. All those work well enough for me. I think you have a warped definition of 'selling out', by the way. And it might be hard to make that leap not really knowing how I define my respect for other people and my own integrity (which I can assure you is doing just fine).

If you consider this 'evidence' that people without religion are immoral, well, I suppose that's your call. Seems a little shaky to me, though.

I mean don't get me wrong, I expected a few of these kind of responses. This kind of thing doesn't rub everyone the right way, and that's cool, I get it. Thankfully the blog will be optional to read, as are most blogs, and those that aren't interested can avoid it all they like.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to brush up on some of my favorite verses for my interview this week. Praise be!

[temporalillusion]

Alright, lets define them then.

Do you agree that being honest with someone shows respect to that person? And that being dishonest shows disrespect?

Do you agree that lying to someone else in general damages your integrity? There are of course exceptions, but in general.

Do you agree that taking an action that results in your own personal gain at the expense of others is disrespectful? What happens when someone comes in asking for a book on how to deal with sexual abuse (this is where these people go, not to psychologists), and you sell them a book which tells them to pray and think happy thoughts? Or less extreme but similar cases. To me you've done harm to someone, only for your own benefit.

I'm trying to understand the existing moral structure that doesn't make this whole setup immoral I guess.

In your opinion your actions will do no harm to the store owner, workers or patrons?

[jjramsey]

They still believe Warnke, after all.

Considering that it was journalists of Christian magazine that exposed (http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss098/sellingsatan.htm) Warnke, I wouldn't count on that.

Of course, I also wouldn't count on you not giving bad advice to Wheezebucket just to mess with him. :p

[Wheezebucket]

Alright, lets define them then.

Do you agree that being honest with someone shows respect to that person? And that being dishonest shows disrespect?

Do you agree that lying to someone else in general damages your integrity? There are of course exceptions, but in general.

Do you agree that taking an action that results in your own personal gain at the expense of others is disrespectful? What happens when someone comes in asking for a book on how to deal with sexual abuse (this is where these people go, not to psychologists), and you sell them a book which tells them to pray and think happy thoughts? Or less extreme but similar cases. To me you've done harm to someone, only for your own benefit.

I'm trying to understand the existing moral structure that doesn't make this whole setup immoral I guess.

In your opinion your actions will do no harm to the store owner, workers or patrons?

1) No.

2) Yes (in general - there's those pesky gray areas again!)

3) No.

Also, quick side note, you're making a lot of assumptions about how I'm going to handle myself in those situations. They would have worked much better in the form of a question - which is what I need, gotta get this stuff squared away before the big show (providing I even get hired).

What happens when someone comes in asking for a book on how to deal with sexual abuse (this is where these people go, not to psychologists), and you sell them a book which tells them to pray and think happy thoughts?

I would not just sell that person a book on happy thoughts, like the average employee there might. Where you just zigged, I might zag, instead. And like I said, who knows how long I could last? If rape victims are constantly flooding in asking mid-20s bookstore shelf stockers how to handle their problems, I imagine I wouldn't make it very long at all.

In your opinion your actions will do no harm to the store owner, workers or patrons?

More harm? No. Different harm, with a chance for showers of sanity? Absolutely.

[Wheezebucket]

Considering that it was journalists of Christian magazine that exposed (http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss098/sellingsatan.htm) Warnke, I wouldn't count on that.

Of course, I also wouldn't count on you not giving bad advice to Wheezebucket just to mess with him. :p

And here I was, already perfecting my Christian Fonz routine for the ladies!

[Marquis de Carabas]

Considering that it was journalists of Christian magazine that exposed (http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss098/sellingsatan.htm) Warnke, I wouldn't count on that.
I know. I remember the article. I remember bringing it to church. I remember beng told that even Christian journalists can fall for Satan's lies. I remember several years later, after having left said church, still hearing about Warnke fans within. That something has been confirmed false is no reason to expect people to believe it false.

[Marquis de Carabas]

And here I was, already perfecting my Christian Fonz routine for the ladies!
Fear not. I offer my advice sincerely. I agree with others who find it reprehensible to fake Christianity for money. If you do it for ass, though, it's all right.

[Wheezebucket]

Fear not. I offer my advice sincerely. I agree with others who find it reprehensible to fake Christianity for money. If you do it for ass, though, it's all right.

I'll adjust my strats accordingly!

[temporalillusion]

1) So in which cases is lying wrong, if ever? I think lying is wrong because you are taking advantage of society's truthful nature for your own gain, you rob yourself of integrity (who should trust you since you lie), but mostly because you are robbing others of their freedom in that you take away the ability to make a free and informed decision. That shows a tremendous disrespect for others, not the kind of disrespect the book store owner has earned.

By the same standard, if the guy hired you, you worked a few weeks, and your paycheque was half what you expected, you wouldn't have a problem with it? He lied to you about it for money.

2) So in this case you are damaging your integrity for money and sport, that would be the "selling out" I had in mind.

3) No to the example of harm, or no you don't think causing harm to others for your own gain is disrespectful to others (or morally wrong even)?

I'm not making assumptions on what you'll do in some situations, I'm trying to look at the actions you have said you will take, and also looking at potential situations that will arise and how they will play out (a what if). I apologize if I came across that way.

Which is why I asked the last question.. If you honestly think you won't be doing harm with your actions that's ok, but I believe you have done it before you even start your first day, in the lying part I've already outlined, and in general I just don't think it's very nice of you.

How would you react if a science teacher in a school lied to get the job so they could secretly spread creationist materials?

That's why I asked about your goals. If it was to try and enlighten, this isn't the way to go about it IMO. Who would accept showers of sanity from someone who they'll eventually figure out lied from the outset? They'll reject any sanity you bring since you've shown no integrity (rightly or wrongly).

1) No.

2) Yes (in general - there's those pesky gray areas again!)

3) No.

Also, quick side note, you're making a lot of assumptions about how I'm going to handle myself in those situations. They would have worked much better in the form of a question - which is what I need, gotta get this stuff squared away before the big show (providing I even get hired).

I would not just sell that person a book on happy thoughts, like the average employee there might. Where you just zigged, I might zag, instead. And like I said, who knows how long I could last? If rape victims are constantly flooding in asking mid-20s bookstore shelf stockers how to handle their problems, I imagine I wouldn't make it very long at all.

More harm? No. Different harm, with a chance for showers of sanity? Absolutely.

[Wheezebucket]

I don't tend to tie honesty to integrity when I can avoid it (which is most of the time). That's not to say I disagree with your point even, but maybe we've got different ideas on what kind of respect/disrespect an individual does and does not deserve by default. What disrespect do you think that person should be getting instead that would be more fitting? What has he earned so far, do you think?

If I got stiffed on a paycheck while pretending to be a different religion? Or in a normal day-to-day job where I was honest about my belief system with my co-workers? Just the one time, or repeat halvsies? What was my job performance like? Is my boss a dick or a nice guy? What color shirt does he wear as he hands me my shorted check?

2) So in this case you are damaging your integrity for money and sport, that would be the "selling out" I had in mind.

2) I disagree. If I judged my integrity based on what *you* thought of me based on some internet posts, then maybe, but fortunately that's not the case. And I know what selling out would be in my case, I'm not unfamiliar with it in a general sense. I've sold out before and I'm sure I'll sell out again, but this ain't one of those times, thank Zeus.

3) No to the example of harm, or no you don't think causing harm to others for your own gain is disrespectful to others (or morally wrong even)?

Yes, I think causing harm to others for your own gain is disrespectful to those individuals. No, I'm not particularly worried about it in this instance. Unless I get beat up, that would suck.

Which is why I asked the last question.. If you honestly think you won't be doing harm with your actions that's ok, but I believe you have done it before you even start your first day, in the lying part I've already outlined, and in general I just don't think it's very nice of you.

I appreciate your position, but I respectfully disagree. Note, I didn't say I didn't think I would be doing no harm whatsoever - but it's a level of 'harm' I'm more than comfortable with. The truth of the matter is, I have no idea how this situation could play out at the end of the day. I think there's potential for it to go in a lot of different directions - and that's provided I can even pull off the act convincingly enough to get in the door.

How would you react if a science teacher in a school lied to get the job so they could secretly spread creationist materials?

Probably the same thing I do about it now. That is quite the problem.

That's why I asked about your goals. If it was to try and enlighten, this isn't the way to go about it IMO. Who would accept showers of sanity from someone who they'll eventually figure out lied from the outset? They'll reject any sanity you bring since you've shown no integrity (rightly or wrongly).

My goals are assuredly not to enlighten anyone, at least not any Christians, no. Could it? I dunno, maybe, but it's doubtful. My main goal isn't money either, really. There's plenty of other places I could apply where I could make more money for doing considerably less work, but this angle appeals to me waaaay more for a combination of reasons. But in the spirit of honesty (ha!), the money doesn't hurt - even filthy heathen liars gotta eat!

I agree 100% about that last point though, which is why, as I said, I have no delusions about actually trying to 'rescue' anybody from their pool of ignorance - I just want to splash in it for a little while alongside 'em, maybe get some chlorine in somebody's eyes.

[Marquis de Carabas]

How would you react if a science teacher in a school lied to get the job so they could secretly spread creationist materials?
That is not an analogous situation at all. The problem with a science teacher distributing creationist propaganda is not a mere "O noes, somebody told a kid about creationism!" The problem is that a person in a position of authority and trust told a kid about creationism.

[gnomon]

Reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that it is not Christians being played but rather the skeptics.

[Wheezebucket]

Reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that it is not Christians being played but rather the skeptics.

How's that?

[Lothian]

1) So in which cases is lying wrong, if ever? I think lying is wrong because you are taking advantage of society's truthful nature for your own gain, you rob yourself of integrity (who should trust you since you lie), but mostly because you are robbing others of their freedom in that you take away the ability to make a free and informed decision. That shows a tremendous disrespect for others, not the kind of disrespect the book store owner has earned.Given the wide range of Christian beliefs I expect that many of the books in the bookstore are in conflict with each other. Would you expect a Christian to openly confess at interview that he has difficulty with some of the texts being sold.

I expect that wheeze will have sympathy for lots of the material in the bookshop but may, like many Christians have problems with other bits. That does not stop him/her working there.

Are you suggesting that any candidate for any job should at the interview raise any personal concerns with the potential employers positions. Do you support every single one of your companies policies ? Is there nothing about your employer you would want to change ?

[ponderingturtle]

1) So in which cases is lying wrong, if ever? I think lying is wrong because you are taking advantage of society's truthful nature for your own gain, you rob yourself of integrity (who should trust you since you lie), but mostly because you are robbing others of their freedom in that you take away the ability to make a free and informed decision. That shows a tremendous disrespect for others, not the kind of disrespect the book store owner has earned.

By the same standard, if the guy hired you, you worked a few weeks, and your paycheque was half what you expected, you wouldn't have a problem with it? He lied to you about it for money.

So you are against lieing to people to prevent them from breaking the law?

[ponderingturtle]

That is not an analogous situation at all. The problem with a science teacher distributing creationist propaganda is not a mere "O noes, somebody told a kid about creationism!" The problem is that a person in a position of authority and trust told a kid about creationism.

It also involves inappropriate on the job behavior. Meeting their expectations is not generally considered inappropriate

[ChristineR]

As I recall, it is against the law to discriminate in hiring on the basis of religion. As the assumption here is that the bookstore is breaking the law you can make a good argument that lying is an acceptable option.

Quite a few "how to get a job" books advice people to lie when they are asked illegal questions about their health, religion, marital status, children or desire to have children, and so on. Being a Christian is not necessary to working in a Christian bookstore. A working knowledge of the books being sold in this sort of store might be, but anyone who reads this forum will quickly learn that atheists and agnostics can know more about this than the average Christian.

[Cleon]

As I recall, it is against the law to discriminate in hiring on the basis of religion. As the assumption here is that the bookstore is breaking the law you can make a good argument that lying is an acceptable option.


This is true, but there are exceptions, such as religious organizations. If the bookstore is owned by a ministry of some sort, the equal opportunity laws probably don't apply.

[bluess]

Well the money is really only part of it. I also kind of like the idea of playing a Christian, seeing how long I can get away with it. I mean, if that parent and kid were planning on getting that book, they were gonna get it whether I worked there or not. And I'll be able to play around in other ways while i'm there - peppering the occasional skeptic literature around anonymously, creating holy water stains and attributing them to deities, etc.

In other words, I'll find ways to vent my frustrations (without blowing my cover, hopefully). I'll probably blog about it too to help sell my comic.

Of course, all this hinges on me actually getting hired, so we'll see what happens. I start the rounds today!

So, you're knowingly applying for a job with an organization you find despicable to be .... despicable?

As a business owner (who doesn't give a flying fig if employees bend their knee to a deity, their motorbike or an RPG as long as they do it on their own time) I can only say that your ass would be fired as soon as I figured out that you were damaging my company's reputation and business by your actions. If you disagree with with what my firm sells/does, demonstrate outside, leaflet people as they walk in, send me a letter to open an honest dialogue - act in a responsible fashion. But this kind of stuff you say you would do....yeesh.

If the money situation is that bad, go work at a fast food joint. Wait, don't. You be the guy spitting in drinks because you hate the franchise.

[gnomon]

How's that?

Now I don't know. It was pretty late when I posted that and here I am the next morning wondering why I posted it. And I wasn't even drinking.

Perhaps it's because I do work for a large book retailer and the generalized view of the employees made by many people is usually way off the mark. Fortunately, we don't have to put up with much except during the political season. I also sympathize towards other booksellers (or retailers), even though I'm not a Christian, because I know my job is hectic enough without having to deal with intentional and selfish disruption.

[temporalillusion]

I don't tend to tie honesty to integrity when I can avoid it (which is most of the time). That's not to say I disagree with your point even, but maybe we've got different ideas on what kind of respect/disrespect an individual does and does not deserve by default. What disrespect do you think that person should be getting instead that would be more fitting? What has he earned so far, do you think?

But you agreed that lying in general damages your integrity, but then you say you don't tie honesty to integrity when you can help it.. a moral framework has to be consistent or it doesn't mean anything. I see what you mean though, and personally I think every individual deserves the same respect by default. The store owner, employees, and patrons haven't done anything to earn that kind of disrespect IMO, at least not without more information. I'm assuming he's just a normal guy running a Christian book store.

I hope you aren't saying that just by being Christian they're somehow more deserving of being lied to.


If I got stiffed on a paycheck while pretending to be a different religion? Or in a normal day-to-day job where I was honest about my belief system with my co-workers? Just the one time, or repeat halvsies? What was my job performance like? Is my boss a dick or a nice guy? What color shirt does he wear as he hands me my shorted check?

Sorry, I know you're trying to make a point with this but I'm missing it.

2) I disagree. If I judged my integrity based on what *you* thought of me based on some internet posts, then maybe, but fortunately that's not the case. And I know what selling out would be in my case, I'm not unfamiliar with it in a general sense. I've sold out before and I'm sure I'll sell out again, but this ain't one of those times, thank Zeus.


I'm only judging integrity based on what you agreed on, that in general lying compromises integrity. In some cases lying is justified and doesn't compromise integrity, if this is one of those cases I'd be interested as to why you think so.

I appreciate your position, but I respectfully disagree. Note, I didn't say I didn't think I would be doing no harm whatsoever - but it's a level of 'harm' I'm more than comfortable with. The truth of the matter is, I have no idea how this situation could play out at the end of the day. I think there's potential for it to go in a lot of different directions - and that's provided I can even pull off the act convincingly enough to get in the door.

You say that it's a level of harm that you're more comfortable with, but why do you get to decide what level of harm is acceptable for you to inflict on others. If they decide that beating you up is an acceptable level of harm that they're comfortable with, you are ok with that?


My goals are assuredly not to enlighten anyone, at least not any Christians, no. Could it? I dunno, maybe, but it's doubtful. My main goal isn't money either, really. There's plenty of other places I could apply where I could make more money for doing considerably less work, but this angle appeals to me waaaay more for a combination of reasons. But in the spirit of honesty (ha!), the money doesn't hurt - even filthy heathen liars gotta eat!


So what is your main goal? What are those combination of reasons?

That is not an analogous situation at all. The problem with a science teacher distributing creationist propaganda is not a mere "O noes, somebody told a kid about creationism!" The problem is that a person in a position of authority and trust told a kid about creationism.

True, it's not completely analogous, but I think the similarities are there enough to try to communicate the point I'm trying to make. So change that to the owner of a science book store and a creationist employee. I would have no problem with that as long as the creationist wasn't trying to subvert the business and did the job I would expect of any other employee.

I expect that wheeze will have sympathy for lots of the material in the bookshop but may, like many Christians have problems with other bits. That does not stop him/her working there.


I see what you mean and in general I agree. The fact that a Christian book store would not hire someone based on their religion is wrong to me; everyone should be mature enough to be able for that to not be an issue.

Are you suggesting that any candidate for any job should at the interview raise any personal concerns with the potential employers positions.

Sure, if it's important. If an employer engages in activities that I believe are morally wrong, I would probably want to know about it before hand to see if it will be a problem (for either them or me).

Do you support every single one of your companies policies ? Is there nothing about your employer you would want to change ?

Of course there's always differences, but usually if someone is applying to work somewhere there's a general alignment of views.. if I'm a militant member of PETA and I apply and get a job at a meat packing plant, that's different than a company making their corporate donations to a charity I don't agree with. (not saying either of those is similar to this situation).

So you are against lieing to people to prevent them from breaking the law?

Yes I probably would be. Are you talking about lying about the laws themselves? Or lying about the consequences of breaking the laws? Do you have a specific example?

[temporalillusion]

As I recall, it is against the law to discriminate in hiring on the basis of religion. As the assumption here is that the bookstore is breaking the law you can make a good argument that lying is an acceptable option.

Quite a few "how to get a job" books advice people to lie when they are asked illegal questions about their health, religion, marital status, children or desire to have children, and so on. Being a Christian is not necessary to working in a Christian bookstore. A working knowledge of the books being sold in this sort of store might be, but anyone who reads this forum will quickly learn that atheists and agnostics can know more about this than the average Christian.

This is a very good point and I agree, though you could answer those questions without lying ("I'd like to answer but unfortunately the law says I can't" kind of answer).

[Trantor]

Wheezebucket,

My only advise to you is - be sure to know all your "Left Behind Books" well. While you are working there, you may want to browse thru them. If you are ever asked how you feel about them, you want to say that you absolutely love them and that they are blessed by Jesus himself! You would be amazed at how many fundies think those ridiculous, and badly written books are inspired by God.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Familiarize yourself with some top selling Christian romance novels, too. (Yes, the genre actually exists.) It's just one more ticket to poontopia.

[ImaginalDisc]

This is a very good point and I agree, though you could answer those questions without lying ("I'd like to answer but unfortunately the law says I can't" kind of answer).

In my experience, they never like that answer.

[NobbyNobbs]

One thing you'll need to be prepared with is the name of the church you "belong" to. It would be inconceivable for you not to belong to one. I'd suggest picking one some distance away so that you are unlikely to run into other members, yet close enough that you can still get there on Sunday. Find out the name of the preacher there, to add authenticity. Figure out a reason why you travel so far to church, such as having "really made a connection with the people there", or something.

[RenaissanceBiker]

I have a personal thing about lying. It's a character flaw, really. I just don't do it. I have truthed myself into trouble many times, but a lie has never kept me awake at night.

College Dorm Director: "I was just walking up the sidewalk. Did you throw a beer bottle out of your window?"
RB: "Yes."

Soon-to-be-ex-girlfriend: "Did you sleep with H_____?"
RB: "Yes."

Like I said, it's a character flaw.

[temporalillusion]

A pathological truther?

(great sig BTW)

[Moon-Spinner]

I don't know, I think I would be compelled to steer customers to the Science and History section...

Oh wait, it's a CHRISTIAN book store...


Nevermind!

[Solus]

Familiarize yourself with some top selling Christian romance novels, too. (Yes, the genre actually exists.) It's just one more ticket to poontopia.

You have got to be kidding me! Do they involve sex with Jesus? :p

[Cleon]

You have got to be kidding me! Do they involve sex with Jesus? :p

No, but they all end with the evil atheist dictator defeated, and the hero proposing to the lead female--who stayed at home and made him dinner.

[Meadmaker]

I hope you make enough money to compensate for your loss of dignity and pride. I don't know your situation, but it must be pretty bad. Couldn't you just sell drugs or something?:)

[Wheezebucket]

But you agreed that lying in general damages your integrity, but then you say you don't tie honesty to integrity when you can help it.. a moral framework has to be consistent or it doesn't mean anything. I see what you mean though, and personally I think every individual deserves the same respect by default. The store owner, employees, and patrons haven't done anything to earn that kind of disrespect IMO, at least not without more information. I'm assuming he's just a normal guy running a Christian book store.

I don't think I agreed that lying always damages your integrity, but if I did, let me clarify a smidgen (smidgen's a word, right? Well regardless, it is now). Circumstance, intention, execution - I can't help but consider this kinda stuff, truth or lie. So yeah, if someone was *constantly* lying to me with no rhyme or reason about mundane things just to get attention, then ok, I'm right there with ya. But my best friends are liars in one form or another, and I'm perfectly comfortable with the moral framework I've applied there.

Also, I can say confidently that your last assumption there is way off base for 2 of the 6 stores I'm applying at - both owners are nightmares come to life (I'm saving specifics for the blog/diary). The other 4 I haven't actually been to just yet, so we'll see!

I hope you aren't saying that just by being Christian they're somehow more deserving of being lied to.

You'll have to point out to me where you got that from.


Sorry, I know you're trying to make a point with this but I'm missing it.

Well you were asking me how I'd feel about that situation. I needed more info to give you an accurate, honest answer.

I'm only judging integrity based on what you agreed on, that in general lying compromises integrity. In some cases lying is justified and doesn't compromise integrity, if this is one of those cases I'd be interested as to why you think so.

I think you might've jumped the gun somewhere, I don't remember agreeing to that without conditions. You and I have very different ideas on a) what integrity means/is/does/dances to and b) how you go about compromising it. I can't imagine going through life dependant on this mythical blanket of universal trust and being angry every time someone wrinkled it.


You say that it's a level of harm that you're more comfortable with, but why do you get to decide what level of harm is acceptable for you to inflict on others. If they decide that beating you up is an acceptable level of harm that they're comfortable with, you are ok with that?

Could I stop them? I'm weak and say 'ouch' when I hear loud noises, just incase. Is that justification? Absolutely not, but it's reality none the less. Does that example apply to what I'm doing? I don't see how. Who gets to decide what is harm is in every individual example? And who gets to decide how to, and when, to inflict it? Same guy, or some kind of board? Do I at least get a vote?

So what is your main goal? What are those combination of reasons?

I think I've repeated them a few times. You may not like them yourself, but I likes em!

So change that to the owner of a science book store and a creationist employee. I would have no problem with that as long as the creationist wasn't trying to subvert the business and did the job I would expect of any other employee.

And you don't think, if asked by numerous rape victims what to do, being the bookstore shelf jockey that he is, he might lean towards one particular opinion? What would you do with him then?!


The fact that a Christian book store would not hire someone based on their religion is wrong to me; everyone should be mature enough to be able for that to not be an issue.

And I would love to ride a Dragon to work, conjured up what by a Wizard!

Of course there's always differences, but usually if someone is applying to work somewhere there's a general alignment of views..

I can't think of any 'alignments' when I worked at the gas station, or the convenient store, or the grocery store, or Funcoland (well ok, I did love videogames when I was 16), or Wendy's, or any of the other crap jobs I've had that I didn't want. People take jobs all over for different reasons all the time.

[Wheezebucket]

:)

Meadmaker loves drugs too?!