Newest Catholic Saint accused of trickery

[Questioninggeller]

Pope to canonize first Brazilian saint
By STAN LEHMAN, Associated Press Writer
Wed May 9, 2007

SAO PAULO, Brazil - The Franciscan monk who will become Brazil's first native-born saint is credited with 5,000 miracle cures, but doctors are skeptical of his works and even a former Brazilian archbishiop laments the healings as fakery.

Despite the doubts, the canonization of Antonio de Sant'Anna Galvao by Pope Benedict XVI at an open-air mass on Friday is sure to please the more than 1 million Catholics expected to be in attendance.
...
"That was no miracle," said Roberto Focaccia, an infectious disease expert at the hospital where Daniela was treated. "Statistics show that an average of 50 percent of these patients die and the other 50 percent recover completely. She was lucky to be among the 50 percent who survive.

"It worries me," he added, "that so many people think that these small pieces of paper can replace the treatment available in any decent hospital in Brazil."

Even the church has skeptics.
...


Full story: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070509/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_pope_saint

[Ove]

Yes but how many saints could bear close scrutiny? Not many i'm afraid....

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I'm just grateful they didn't nominate John of God.

[aggle-rithm]

This isn't that bad. At least this guy actually existed.

I think it's purely a political move. Brazil is one of the most important Catholic populations in the world; it wouldn't do to continually "dis" them by not throwing a sainthood or two their way.

[fuelair]

This isn't that bad. At least this guy actually existed.

I think it's purely a political move. Brazil is one of the most important Catholic populations in the world; it wouldn't do to continually "dis" them by not throwing a sainthood or two their way. and since it is all a tankerload of essence of srule8 anyway, just go for it!!

[Minarvia]

Yes but how many saints could bear close scrutiny? Not many i'm afraid....

Good point. This made me think of Padre Pio; a man I respect very much for his good works. I don't think his stigmata was genuine, however, nor did some physicians who attended him, and even the Vatican doubted him. Maybe, in order to canonize, the Vatican is willing to overlook some "doubts" in order to keep the canonization ball rolling and the faithful flocking?

[Carnivore]

Could this possibly have anything to do with the fact that evangelical protestantism is booming in Brazil - to the extent that if current growth rates continue, Catholicism will be a minority religion in 15 years?

[PastBrowneFan]

Not to get off subject, but while reading this I had a "psychic vision":

When one SB dies, will the Prelates of NS declare her sainthood?

[Fnord]

When one SB dies, will the Prelates of NS declare her sainthood?

Maybe ... but the real question is, "Will they sell her fingernails as 'holy' relics, as well?" Somehow, if they do, they will likely sell more fingernail clippings than any one woman could have grown in ten lifetimes!

[Ducky]

I'm just grateful they didn't nominate John of God.

Agreed.

[HawaiiBigSis]

I'm just grateful they didn't nominate John of God.
Doesn't the potential saint have to be dead to be nominated?

[Ove]

Good point. This made me think of Padre Pio; a man I respect very much for his good works. I don't think his stigmata was genuine, however, nor did some physicians who attended him, and even the Vatican doubted him. Maybe, in order to canonize, the Vatican is willing to overlook some "doubts" in order to keep the canonization ball rolling and the faithful flocking?

Well yes as far as i remember they also canonized Mother Theresa, which was completely OK as an honour for her work but apparently they had to find a couple of examples of her performing "miracles" in order to canonize her.... She did astounding work and was a great caracter and there should be all reason for catolic's to set her as a role model, they didn't have to invent som mythical stuff in order to do so. -REALLY!!!!!

[sackett]

The whole religion is founded on holy crap (fuelair expressed that well), so Eggs is quite right to leer at reason and make another saint. "Credo quia absurdum est" can be said apologetically -- or it can be yelled insultingly, spittle flying, straight into the face of anybody who tries to object.

Crude defiance of disbelief is a good tactic; it puts the skeptics on the defensive.

[ponderingturtle]

Well yes as far as i remember they also canonized Mother Theresa, which was completely OK as an honour for her work but apparently they had to find a couple of examples of her performing "miracles" in order to canonize her.... She did astounding work and was a great caracter and there should be all reason for catolic's to set her as a role model, they didn't have to invent som mythical stuff in order to do so. -REALLY!!!!!

Well she was a great person at getting donations, how much got to the people she was supposted to be helping is highly questioned by others.

[pgwenthold]

This thread makes me think of Father Guido Sarducci

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/78/78oupdate.phtml

You know, you don't have-a a patron saint for the United States, but there are some American saints. Just the last couple of years they made-a some. The first was-a about-a two years ago. Her name was-a Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton. Mother Seton-is-a what they call her. And she's got-a these nuns of her own order who lobby-they're real heavy-they came to Rome and everything. And it's amazing, you see. To be made a saint in-a the catholic church, you have to have-a four miracles. That's-a the rules, you know. It's-a always been that-a. Four miracles, and-a to prove it. Well, this-a Mother Seton-now they could only prove-a three miracles. But the Pope-he just waved the fourth one. He just waved it! And do you know why? It's-a because she was American. It's all-a politics. We got-a some Italian-a people, they got-a forty, fifty, sixty miracles to their name. They can't-a get in just cause they say there's already too many Italian saints, and this woman comes along with-a three lousy miracles. I understand that-a two of them was-a card tricks. Next thing you know, they're gonna be making Kreskin a saint. Saint Kreskin-they'll probably call him. It's a good one.


PS For something fun, check out the point-counterpoint at the bottom of that webpage

[Minarvia]

Well yes as far as i remember they also canonized Mother Theresa, which was completely OK as an honour for her work but apparently they had to find a couple of examples of her performing "miracles" in order to canonize her.... She did astounding work and was a great caracter and there should be all reason for catolic's to set her as a role model, they didn't have to invent som mythical stuff in order to do so. -REALLY!!!!!

I'm glad you mentioned Mother Teresa. I thought of her as well and could not recall if she had been canonized yet or not. I was reasonably sure she had been beatified, tho.
I wonder how JP2's "miracle" cure of that nun with Parkinson's is going.

[wahrheit]

This isn't that bad. At least this guy actually existed.

I think it's purely a political move. Brazil is one of the most important Catholic populations in the world; it wouldn't do to continually "dis" them by not throwing a sainthood or two their way.

and since it is all a tankerload of essence of srule8 anyway, just go for it!!

Could this possibly have anything to do with the fact that evangelical protestantism is booming in Brazil - to the extent that if current growth rates continue, Catholicism will be a minority religion in 15 years?

The whole religion is founded on holy crap *snip*

You guys have already said all that crossed my mind. Thanks.

Not to get off subject, but while reading this I had a "psychic vision":


PBF, please! You promised to quit having those visions when signing up here. ;)

[ImaginalDisc]

Well yes as far as i remember they also canonized Mother Theresa, which was completely OK as an honour for her work but apparently they had to find a couple of examples of her performing "miracles" in order to canonize her.... She did astounding work and was a great caracter and there should be all reason for catolic's to set her as a role model, they didn't have to invent som mythical stuff in order to do so. -REALLY!!!!!

What work? She romanticized poverty and suffering, took dirty money, cooked her books, and when she fell ill, got treatment from the best doctors in Europe, rather than lying down to die in the filth and incompetence of her own "hospitals." She was a monster.

[PastBrowneFan]

You guys have already said all that crossed my mind. Thanks.




PBF, please! You promised to quit having those visions when signing up here. ;)

Sorry, sometimes old habits are hard to break.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I'm glad you mentioned Mother Teresa. I thought of her as well and could not recall if she had been canonized yet or not. I was reasonably sure she had been beatified, tho.
I wonder how JP2's "miracle" cure of that nun with Parkinson's is going.

I've got this book at home, but not read it yet. This thread is making me want to get to it soon though.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Missionary-Position-Ideology-Mother-Teresa/dp/185984054X/ref=sr_1_1/026-6226636-6074826?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178952365&sr=8-1

[ponderingturtle]

I've got this book at home, but not read it yet. This thread is making me want to get to it soon though.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Missionary-Position-Ideology-Mother-Teresa/dp/185984054X/ref=sr_1_1/026-6226636-6074826?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178952365&sr=8-1

Link (http://website.lineone.net/~bajuu/) to Aroup Chattergee's website. Includes several of the chapters documenting how she did very little actually help people in Calcutta

[Luciana]

I never thought I'd say that, but I'm glad the Pope is here and that he's working to strengthen Catholic faith in Brazil. Contrary to predictions, because Ratzinger isn't as cute as late John Paul, the crowd loved him. He speaks excellent Portuguese, improvises, smiles, etc.

The reason I welcome his presence is that I fear the inherent intolerance of Evangelical Protestantism.

Catholicism has 500 years of history here. Above all things, Catholicism in Brazil has been recognized for its ability to adapt. For Brazilians, CC is more about tradition and affection than about convictions.

Most Brazilians are against abortion, but most favor death penalty. Most think the Church is wrong in its stance on the use of condoms. About half believe that celibacy should end for priests. The vast majority of "sinners" - gays, divorcees, promiscuous people feel they are Catholic. They simply choose which aspects they want to follow. And then everything is ok.

"Religious syncretism" is what we call the mix of Catholicism with African religions and other beliefs. Catholics light up candles to African gods, throw flowers in the sea for the Sea Goddess, Yemanja, believe in superstitions, go to tarot readers, read astrology colums. Oh, and the vast majority of so-called Catholics believe in reincarnation.

The belief in God is strong. Beyond that, there's only affection and a visit to the church once or twice a year, for the parties. A prayer now and then to soothe the spirit. Wedding before the priest. But that's not much. A good analogy would be... Catholicism is to Brazilians what the royal family is to some European countries. It has to do with culture and tradition.

But not Evangelical Protestantism. They're vengefully against African religions, which goes against a major aspect of Brazilian culture. They discriminate people of other religions. They have strict views and are prone to dictating their morals to everyone. They proselytize and turn people into Bible-reading drones.

So that's why I prefer the lassitude and tolerance allowed by the Brazilian brand of Catholicism and that's why I prefer it to Protestantism, whose growth I hope is stunted by condom-wearing divorced gay Catholics.

[Luciana]

Could this possibly have anything to do with the fact that evangelical protestantism is booming in Brazil - to the extent that if current growth rates continue, Catholicism will be a minority religion in 15 years?

Where did you get that? Protestantism has experienced a boom but its growth is slowing down considerably.

I used to say that I disliked all religions equally. Now I have come to believe that Protestantism is much more detrimental to Brazil than Catholicism. Most of its stances on certain social issues are the same - anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-pill, etc., with the difference that Protestants have a higher commitment to those laws.

[Carnivore]

Where did you get that?

Where else? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_in_Brazil) :o

Actually, a fair amount of the mainstream media coverage of the Pope's visit to Brazil referenced the growth of the evangelical churches in recent years. It wasnt made clear that that growth had slowed.

[Minarvia]

I've got this book at home, but not read it yet. This thread is making me want to get to it soon though.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Missionary-Position-Ideology-Mother-Teresa/dp/185984054X/ref=sr_1_1/026-6226636-6074826?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178952365&sr=8-1

Very interesting! Thank you. I'll have to look further into her. Like many people, I suppose I never really probed into her life and deeds. I took her at face value, and that wasn't very discerning of me. :o

[Minarvia]

Where did you get that? Protestantism has experienced a boom but its growth is slowing down considerably.

I used to say that I disliked all religions equally. Now I have come to believe that Protestantism is much more detrimental to Brazil than Catholicism. Most of its stances on certain social issues are the same - anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-pill, etc., with the difference that Protestants have a higher commitment to those laws.

They do now, but if they became the majority in Brazil do you think they would adapt to keep that majority? I can't help but wonder.

In your opinion, why do you think that their growth there is slowing? Do you think that people are beginning to realize that their cherished traditions would be going the way of the dinosaurs?

[Correa Neto]

At the risk of contributing to a derail...

Luciana, I am very happy to see one more person sharing my opinions regarding Brazilian evangelics.

Luciana is quite younger than I am. I don't think she experienced our "carioca society" as it was back in the late 70s and early to mid-80s. We were a more tolerant society. I noticed (anedoctal data) conservative and intolerant positions were growing with the evangelics. It was such a shame, at the same time we were (re)discovering freedom -our military dictatorship was crumbling- we were sharpening some of the old tools of intolerance.

These people persecuted followers of syncretic religions and Kardecists and use of violence was not unheard of. Their numbers initially grew after these religions, by a propaganda campaign that basically said syncretic and Kardecists religions worshipped the devil.

Just like Luciana, I do not trust religions, but I've come to the opinion that nowdays we can only hope for the lesser of the evils. Spiritualist religions and cults (Afro syncretic and Kardecist) are much more tolerant of diversity than neoevagelics. Our society is becoming less diverse as their numbers dwindle. I hope they are ehxausting the avaliable pool of believers for their faiths and their growth will come to a halt as soon as possible.

I could just have written Luciana a PM saying I agree with her. However, I feel some people would like to know other Brazillians share her opinions.

Sorry for the OT digression, carry on...